Multi room viewing and tuner box

[rarceneaux]

I have a HD and two Series 2 Tivo. I could pull shows without a problem till about 2 weeks ago when Charter came out and installed a turner box on the HD box and now the two series 2 can not pull any shows from it. If I try to pull a show the HD is there but I get a message the DVR has no recording. I can pull shows from Tivo desktop but not from the Series 2's. I unplugged the turner box and rebooted all 3 Tivo's and still have the same problem. I called Tivo support and they weren't able to help they said there is some problems with tuner boxes and when I said I removed it they just said that should have fixed it.

[pdonoghu]

It is a known problem that tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos. I'm not sure if the recordings made with the tuning adapter in place will be able to be transferred after it is removed. You can try making a new non HD recording with the tuning adapter removed, and see if that will transfer.

[lrhorer]

It is a known problem that tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos. I'm not sure if the recordings made with the tuning adapter in place will be able to be transferred after it is removed. You can try making a new non HD recording with the tuning adapter removed, and see if that will transfer.
This is utter nonsense. The TA in no way interacts with the home LAN or indeed with anything whatsoever beyond the CableCards in the signal flow. Once the content is on the hard drive, the TA has nothing to do with it. It's hypothetically possible the TA could cause networking issues if he is using a USB adapter, although it is unlikely.

[lrhorer]

I have a HD and two Series 2 Tivo. I could pull shows without a problem till about 2 weeks ago when Charter came out and installed a turner box on the HD box and now the two series 2 can not pull any shows from it.
I presume you mean a Tuning Adapter?

If I try to pull a show the HD is there but I get a message the DVR has no recording. I can pull shows from Tivo desktop but not from the Series 2's.
I presume you mean from the Series III?

I unplugged the turner box and rebooted all 3 Tivo's and still have the same problem. I called Tivo support and they weren't able to help they said there is some problems with tuner boxes and when I said I removed it they just said that should have fixed it.
There are a number of possibilities, but if my interpretation of your description is accurate (it may not be, as you have been a little vague), then the most likely to me would seem to be that with the TA, the TiVo is now recording HD sources rather than SD. The S2 cannot retrieve HD video.

You don't specify. Are you able to transfer to the PC from the THD? Have you checked the resolution of the video in the THD? Is your network wireless?

[pdonoghu]

This is utter nonsense. The TA in no way interacts with the home LAN or indeed with anything whatsoever beyond the CableCards in the signal flow. Once the content is on the hard drive, the TA has nothing to do with it. It's hypothetically possible the TA could cause networking issues if he is using a USB adapter, although it is unlikely.

Well excuse me. Do you have a tuning adapter?

See this thread for this well documented problem.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=414223&page=8&highlight=tuning+adapter

[lrhorer]

Well excuse me. Do you have a tuning adapter?
No, I have three of them. Two of them on S3 TiVos and one on a THD. I also know how the TA functions at the fundamental level. I transfer all over the place, although I don't do a great deal of MRV. It does work, however, with or without the TA on programs recorded with or without the TA.

See this thread for this well documented problem.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=414223&page=8&highlight=tuning+adapter
I read the link, and it is anything but well documented. It is also highly devoid of troubleshooting. I did not see a single reference to anyone firing up a sniffer or doing much in the way of pinning down the issue. There are also several references to clearly unrelated albeit similar problems, but que sera in a forum like this. One thing which did seem fairly clear is the problem is somehow triggered by having an S2 in the mix and the only issue is transferring from the S3 to the S2, not any other mixture. This in and of itself completely precludes the notion the TA blocks transfers. The other thing strongly suggested by some of the posts there is it is the nature of the CONTENT which prevents it from being transferred, not the existence of the TA. This falls right in line with my hypothesis expressed above, although given the tenuous and incomplete nature of the data so far supplied and the near complete lack of troubleshooting the issue, I am rather loathe to come to any conclusions.

[NJ_HB]

It is a known problem that tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos. I'm not sure if the recordings made with the tuning adapter in place will be able to be transferred after it is removed. You can try making a new non HD recording with the tuning adapter removed, and see if that will transfer.

After the install of my TA both my series 2s are experiencing the the "DVR has no content message" when trying to access the TiVoHD.
I spoke about it in this April 2009 discussion.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=423674&highlight=NJ_HB

[rarceneaux]

I presume you mean a Tuning Adapter?


I presume you mean from the Series III?


There are a number of possibilities, but if my interpretation of your description is accurate (it may not be, as you have been a little vague), then the most likely to me would seem to be that with the TA, the TiVo is now recording HD sources rather than SD. The S2 cannot retrieve HD video.

You don't specify. Are you able to transfer to the PC from the THD? Have you checked the resolution of the video in the THD? Is your network wireless?

Yes it is wireless and I have shows that were recorded before the tuning adapter that the two Series 2 can't see anymore.

[CuriousMark]

This is utter nonsense. The TA in no way interacts with the home LAN or indeed with anything whatsoever beyond the CableCards in the signal flow. Once the content is on the hard drive, the TA has nothing to do with it. It's hypothetically possible the TA could cause networking issues if he is using a USB adapter, although it is unlikely.

I think you are misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions. No one, is saying it interferes with the network.

When you use a TA, TW has the cable card use a different channel map. That different channel map seems to cause problems for some people or DVRs. So no, it is not utter nonsense.

[NJ_HB]

The problem seems to related to the addition of a TA in the midst of a S3 and S2 household. From what I've read multi Series3 (only) owners are not experiencing the 'DVR has no content message.'
The workaround would be to dump the programming from the S3 via the desktop and retrieve them with the S2.

[realityboy]

I read the link, and it is anything but well documented. It is also highly devoid of troubleshooting. I did not see a single reference to anyone firing up a sniffer or doing much in the way of pinning down the issue. There are also several references to clearly unrelated albeit similar problems, but que sera in a forum like this. One thing which did seem fairly clear is the problem is somehow triggered by having an S2 in the mix and the only issue is transferring from the S3 to the S2, not any other mixture. This in and of itself completely precludes the notion the TA blocks transfers. The other thing strongly suggested by some of the posts there is it is the nature of the CONTENT which prevents it from being transferred, not the existence of the TA. This falls right in line with my hypothesis expressed above, although given the tenuous and incomplete nature of the data so far supplied and the near complete lack of troubleshooting the issue, I am rather loathe to come to any conclusions.

The problem only occurs when transferring shows from a S3 to a S2 so you wouldn't see it. The problem started for most people when a tuning adapter was installed. Yes, there are unrelated problems also listed in that thread, and perhaps there hasn't been enough troubleshooting, but this is a real problem. When viewing the NPL from the S2, no recordings are even visible regardless of the nature of the CONTENT. I think it is a little rude to assume that the OP doesn't understand the difference between HD & SD content as he was using this configuration with no problem up until the time the TA was installed. Although, I agree that more information is needed to reach a conclusion.

OP, are you seeing a list of recordings at all? Or are you able to see things but not transfer them. If the content is in HD it will still show in the NPL, but it will have a red circle with a line through it. This is also the case with copy-protected things.

[NJ_HB]

The problem only occurs when transferring shows from a S3 to a S2 so you wouldn't see it. The problem started for most people when a tuning adapter was installed. Yes, there are unrelated problems also listed in that thread, and perhaps there hasn't been enough troubleshooting, but this is a real problem. When viewing the NPL from the S2, no recordings are even visible regardless of the nature of the CONTENT. I think it is a little rude to assume that the OP doesn't understand the difference between HD & SD content as he was using this configuration with no problem up until the time the TA was installed. Although, I agree that more information is needed to reach a conclusion.

OP, are you seeing a list of recordings at all? Or are you able to see things but not transfer them. If the content is in HD it will still show in the NPL, but it will have a red circle with a line through it. This is also the case with copy-protected things.

I'm not the OP, but no, there is only a "DVR has no content" message when you try to access.

[rarceneaux]

Looks like Tivo fixed it I can now see the shows on the HD from my two Series 2's.

[lrhorer]

I think you are misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions. No one, is saying it interferes with the network.

Well, pdonoghu said:

It is a known problem that tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos.

It's hard for me to interpret that statement any other way. It may not have been the intent...

When you use a TA, TW has the cable card use a different channel map. That different channel map seems to cause problems for some people or DVRs.
The channel map is nothing but a listing of the QAM frequency and substeam where each channel can be found. The tuner, under directions from the CableCard or TA, tunes to the QAM for the specified channel and demodulates the stream, passing it to the CableCard. The CableCard decrypts the stream (if it is encrypted), passing it to the on-board processors for re-encryption before saving the stream to the hard drive. None of the channel map information is saved on the hard drive with the video stream. Thus, while something was indeed causing issues with the HMO utilities on an S2 when trying to read from an S3 with a TA attached, the channel map wasn't the root cause, because it doesn't affect the bits on the hard drive, or indeed anything beyond the tuner.

So no, it is not utter nonsense.
I'm not saying the effect is not real. The explanations suggested as the root cause are nonsense. There are several possibilities, but without a network capture from an HMO stream trying to read from an S3 to an S2, it's really hard to say what. Some possibilities are a content issue or something in the HMO stack being inadvertently overwritten by the TA code.

[nycityuser]

I read the link, and it is anything but well documented. It is also highly devoid of troubleshooting. I did not see a single reference to anyone firing up a sniffer or doing much in the way of pinning down the issue. There are also several references to clearly unrelated albeit similar problems, but que sera in a forum like this. One thing which did seem fairly clear is the problem is somehow triggered by having an S2 in the mix and the only issue is transferring from the S3 to the S2, not any other mixture. This in and of itself completely precludes the notion the TA blocks transfers. The other thing strongly suggested by some of the posts there is it is the nature of the CONTENT which prevents it from being transferred, not the existence of the TA. This falls right in line with my hypothesis expressed above, although given the tenuous and incomplete nature of the data so far supplied and the near complete lack of troubleshooting the issue, I am rather loathe to come to any conclusions.
Are you Sheldon Cooper (from "The Big Bang Theory")? :)

[lrhorer]

The problem only occurs when transferring shows from a S3 to a S2 so you wouldn't see it. The problem started for most people when a tuning adapter was installed.
Yes, I know. I read the thread. At the very least, saying, "tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos" is painting with too broad a brush, however.

Yes, there are unrelated problems also listed in that thread, and perhaps there hasn't been enough troubleshooting, but this is a real problem.
I never said it wasn't.

When viewing the NPL from the S2, no recordings are even visible regardless of the nature of the CONTENT.
That is an assumption, and one which some of the posts suggested might possibly be incorrect. No one that I saw tried the following:

Record a program without the TA and another one with the TA. Verify both are invisible to the S2. Remove the TA and verify both are now visible to the S2.

A uniformly positive result from such a test would suggest the content may not be at issue, and in any case is not the sole issue. A non-uniform result would suggest it is a content issue, presumably something the TA is causing to be written that upsets something in the HMO code when speaking with an S2. Since the S3 checks the content before allowing it to transfer to an S2, this is not an unreasonable hypothesis. (It doesn't mean it is correct, either.)

I think it is a little rude to assume that the OP doesn't understand the difference between HD & SD content as he was using this configuration with no problem up until the time the TA was installed.
I did not suggest such was the case. I merely pointed out it had not been established not to be the case.

Although, I agree that more information is needed to reach a conclusion.
Exactly.

If they have indeed fixed it, the point would seem to be moot, however.

[gastrof]

Could an outsider to the Series 3 community (for now, anyway) ask a slightly-related question here?

I thought that HD shows recorded on the S3s just plain CAN'T be transferred to the Series 2s anyway. Is this discussion about SD shows?

[lrhorer]

Are you Sheldon Cooper (from "The Big Bang Theory")? :)
No, I am a telecommunications engineer, formerly a CATV engineer. Before that, I was studying to be a physicist.

[gastrof]

Are you Sheldon Cooper (from "The Big Bang Theory")? :)

No, I am a telecommunications engineer, formerly a CATV engineer. Before that, I was studying to be a physicist.

Does that mean YOU can answer my question?

[lrhorer]

Could an outsider to the Series 3 community (for now, anyway) ask a slightly-related question here?
I'm not the moderator, but IMO, of course you can. It's a free forum.

I thought that HD shows recorded on the S3s just plain CAN'T be transferred to the Series 2s anyway. Is this discussion about SD shows?
Well, yes. Apparently, however, once the TA is attached, the S2 cannot transfer anything, if my understanding of the problem (which I have not seen) is correct. One possible explanation might be all the content is HD, or at least the S2 thinks the S3 is saying it is HD. If, as some posts seemed to suggest, all the content (including that recorded prior to the installation of the TA) completely disappears, then this would not seem to be the correct explanation. I do know of a bug in the HMO code which can cause the contents of a folder to disappear if a zero length file in encountered. If something in the TA is causing the S3 to report what the S2 thinks is a zero length file, it could explain the problem. Or not.

Trying to diagnose a problem based on second and third hand reports is a very shaky proposition.

[gastrof]

Thanks...I think. ;)

[steve614]

That is an assumption, and one which some of the posts suggested might possibly be incorrect. No one that I saw tried the following:

Record a program without the TA and another one with the TA. Verify both are invisible to the S2. Remove the TA and verify both are now visible to the S2.

In one of the many threads on this subject, someone posted what happened to them.
(As best as I can remember)

With no tuning adapter, the S2 can see the NPL of the S3.
Install tuning adapter on the S3 -- S2 can still see the S3 NPL.
As soon as a recording is made on the S3 with the TA attached, the S2 cannot see the S3 NPL, regardless of whether or not that recording was from an SDV channel.
Remove the TA from the S3 -- no change.
Delete the recording(s) on the S3 that were made while the TA was attatched -- S2 again sees the NPL of the S3.


I'm sure someone else with the actual problem can chime in here to correct or add anything I missed.

[steve614]

Is this discussion about SD shows?

Yes.

Even though HD content can't be transferred, you should still be able to see the recordings on the NPL of an S3 from an S2.
The tuning adapter problem causes the S2 to NOT see the recordings on the S3.

[CuriousMark]

Well, pdonoghu said:

Originally Posted by pdonoghu
It is a known problem that tuning adapters block transfers to other Tivos.

It's hard for me to interpret that statement any other way. It may not have been the intent...
I didn't interpret it that way. The "well known problem" is that Tuning adapters are involved, only when they are present does this problem happen, but it is very distinctively NOT a network problem. The DVR with the TA refuses to serve or serves up a corrupt Now Playing listing. No now playing list, no transfer. So at the oversimplified level of description that this thread was working at, the response was accurate enough.


The channel map is nothing but a listing of the QAM frequency and substeam where each channel can be found. ... Thus, while something was indeed causing issues with the HMO utilities on an S2 when trying to read from an S3 with a TA attached, the channel map wasn't the root cause, because it doesn't affect the bits on the hard drive, or indeed anything beyond the tuner.
That theory was the leading explanation in the other thread and remained uncontested the last time I visited. It has been stated that a "different" channel map is used when a TA is attached. Something in that channel map or program guide or perhaps something else is causing the DVR with the TA attached to either serve a corrupt now playing list or to not serve one at all.


I'm not saying the effect is not real. The explanations suggested as the root cause are nonsense. There are several possibilities, but without a network capture from an HMO stream trying to read from an S3 to an S2, it's really hard to say what. Some possibilities are a content issue or something in the HMO stack being inadvertently overwritten by the TA code.
And this may be the best theory put forward so far. Going forward I will quote your suggested explanation.

I don't believe anyone was aiming for a an engineering root cause before you entered the thread. I think the discussion was simply trying to establish the causal link between a TA's presence and the problem without going deeper.

Where the root cause lies will not be solved without doing a true engineering investigation and the responsibility for that lies jointly with TiVo and the cable company.

[LoadStar]

I know that TiVo doesn't have as active a role here as they once did... but it'd be nice if they were to take a look at this and get it fixed.

I discovered this problem the hard way, recording a few programs in SD deliberately so that I could watch them on a S2 TiVo in the other room... only to find out that the S2 couldn't see any recordings on the S3. :(

[lrhorer]

I didn't interpret it that way. The "well known problem" is that Tuning adapters are involved, only when they are present does this problem happen, but it is very distinctively NOT a network problem.
Once again, that's a broad brush. Something in the HMO code is being munged one way or the other. It is not a problem at the network layer or lower, but it is by definition networking code which is having a problem. The fact it is happening reproducibly with one type of remote host and never with a different type strongly suggests the problem must be at the application layer.

The DVR with the TA refuses to serve or serves up a corrupt Now Playing listing. No now playing list, no transfer. So at the oversimplified level of description that this thread was working at, the response was accurate enough.
Oversimplification leads to misunderstandings and FUD.

That theory was the leading explanation in the other thread and remained uncontested the last time I visited. It has been stated that a "different" channel map is used when a TA is attached.
Yes, the TA channel map overwrites the CableCard channel map, but it has no faculties on the hard drive. Indeed, it is dynamic in memory, and will change anytime a new SDV channel is requested by changing the channel on the TiVo. It's merely a table of frequencies and sub-channels vs. channel numbers.

Something in that channel map or program guide
The program guide has nothing to do with the channel map. It *IS* stored in a database on the hard drive, but it doesn't interact with the tuning facilities, except of course it is used to derive the To Do list which automatically controls the tuner.

or perhaps something else is causing the DVR with the TA attached to either serve a corrupt now playing list or to not serve one at all.
That's why someone needs to fire up WireShark and sniff some of the packets coming from the TiVo in response to a query from an S2. It wouldn't take ten minutes.

I don't believe anyone was aiming for a an engineering root cause before you entered the thread. I think the discussion was simply trying to establish the causal link between a TA's presence and the problem without going deeper.
That was done well enough early in the thread. This doesn't sound like an intermittent problem, and it sounds as if it is easily reproducible.

Where the root cause lies will not be solved without doing a true engineering investigation and the responsibility for that lies jointly with TiVo and the cable company.
No, I don't think so. This does not sound at all like there is any factor related to the CATV company, other than of course the fact they employ SDV. Again, I hate to draw conclusions when I have not seen the problem myself, but if I interpret what most of the thread is saying correctly, then this is squarely a problem for TiVo.

Oh, just BTW, the bug I mentioned previously has been investigated, and it is not a problem with the HMO code in the TiVo. It was a 3rd party application issue.

Nonetheless, it would not be difficult for the routines which service the TA to accidentally overwrite a memory location used by the HMO code which just happens to contain information about the validity of a transfer to an S2. The location might conceivably not be checked when serving up to an S3, because of course all non-copy protected programs are valid for transfer to an S3. When the TA is not attached, the TA service code is inactive, and so doesn't write anything. Please note I am not saying this must be what is happening. I am merely pointing to one possible high level explanation.

[lrhorer]

In one of the many threads on this subject, someone posted what happened to them.
(As best as I can remember)

With no tuning adapter, the S2 can see the NPL of the S3.
Install tuning adapter on the S3 -- S2 can still see the S3 NPL.
As soon as a recording is made on the S3 with the TA attached, the S2 cannot see the S3 NPL, regardless of whether or not that recording was from an SDV channel.
Remove the TA from the S3 -- no change.
Delete the recording(s) on the S3 that were made while the TA was attatched -- S2 again sees the NPL of the S3.


I'm sure someone else with the actual problem can chime in here to correct or add anything I missed.
That's my point. There has not been a methodical approach to gathering details on the problem. If you are correct, as some others on the thread suggest, then the problem is clearly content based, because the problem doesn't manifest when the TA is attached, but rather when a recording is made with the TA attached. Even more strongly, if your story is correct, the problem does not go away when the TA is removed, but only after the content recorded by the TA is gone. That is VERY different from having the problem occur immediately when the TA is attached and having it go away immediately when the TA is removed. One very clearly and strongly points towards a content issue engendered by recording something when the TA is attached. The other would point strongly toward an issue being generated in memory by the presence of the TA.

[realityboy]

That's my point. There has not been a methodical approach to gathering details on the problem. If you are correct, as some others on the thread suggest, then the problem is clearly content based, because the problem doesn't manifest when the TA is attached, but rather when a recording is made with the TA attached. Even more strongly, if your story is correct, the problem does not go away when the TA is removed, but only after the content recorded by the TA is gone. That is VERY different from having the problem occur immediately when the TA is attached and having it go away immediately when the TA is removed. One very clearly and strongly points towards a content issue engendered by recording something when the TA is attached. The other would point strongly toward an issue being generated in memory by the presence of the TA.

What he's saying is correct from my experience with this problem. It's not add a TA and shows disappear so much as if there is 1 show recorded while the TA was connected, nothing on the list shows up at all. I guess I wasn't really following you when you said a content problem. To me, content is the show which appears exactly the same whether it was recorded with the TA or without. I guess the content of the file could be (and most likely is) slightly different somehow.

Of course, the OP could have had a completely different problem since he never came back to give any more details.

Edit: One more bit of information that would be important to someone troubleshooting (which no one really was) although, I can't say that I've tried this firsthand. The shows can be seen from and transferred to Tivo Desktop. And from there, they can be seen from and transferred to the S2.