9/11 science and conspiracy airing on Nat Geo

[pmyers]

Just wanted to give a heads-up about this. The comercial sounds pretty interesting. Kind of a Mythbusters for all the 9/11 conspiracies out there.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I thought it was a little too gentle on the nutjobs, but still pretty interesting.

[speaker city]

I thought it was a little too gentle on the nutjobs, but still pretty interesting.

It's usually the people who believe the government's version of events that have to resort to immature ad hominem attacks and name-calling.

[latrobe7]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[DevdogAZ]

Shouldn't it be cwerdna posting threads about this type of show?

[DougF]

It's usually the people who believe the government's version of events that have to resort to immature ad hominem attacks and name-calling.

No, Rob is being perfectly mature about it. Those freaks are nutjobs.

[cheesesteak]

No, Rob is being perfectly mature about it. Those freaks are nutjobs.

I prefer to call them wingnuts.

[allan]

No, Rob is being perfectly mature about it. Those freaks are nutjobs.

That's what They (tm) want you to think.

[BWINKLER92]

In view of the totally dishonest banking scams that came out in 2008, now I do wonder about those 700 "bond traders" that died, seems like it was described as a big boiler room, were these people reselling those scam mortgage securities??? Buying from the crooked salesmen and then reselling to the banks and such as safe? If so sort of puts them in a different light doesn't it? I thought it odd bonds would need to be traded that quickly or need so many traders just for bonds, now it would seem to make sense why it was a boiler room type operation.

[latrobe7]

http://images.tabulas.com/2/m/look-at-this-duck.jpg

[MegaHertz67]

I thought it was a little too gentle on the nutjobs, but still pretty interesting. I watched this with great interest to see how they would look to debunk the conspiracies "Mythbuster" style. I was fairly satisfied with the scientific results. It was very interesting when they had the three "nutjobs" (or "wingnuts" if you prefer) in the room critiquing the exercises.

I think you have to be suspect of people yelling about the story being wrong, but then are unwilling to put forth their own theories. Just my 2 cents.

[verdugan]

In view of the totally dishonest banking scams that came out in 2008, now I do wonder about those 700 "bond traders" that died, seems like it was described as a big boiler room, were these people reselling those scam mortgage securities??? Buying from the crooked salesmen and then reselling to the banks and such as safe? If so sort of puts them in a different light doesn't it? I thought it odd bonds would need to be traded that quickly or need so many traders just for bonds, now it would seem to make sense why it was a boiler room type operation.

Big :down: Not sure the extent of Cantor Fitzgerlad's involvement in the market of mortgage-backed securities. IIRC, they were involved mostly in bonds. However, they were no Lehman Brothers.

And even, for argument's sake, let's say that they were like Lehamn, that still doesn't discount the fact that 700 people died. How can you say that their lives are worth less just because of what they were trading?

You might not agree with it, we can argue whether it was unethical, however, trading those bonds certainly wasn't was a crime. It was perfectly legal. And I think it's disrespectful to them and their families to say that they were "crooked salesman."

Need so many traders just for bonds? Don't mean any disrespect, but you have no idea how financial markets work, do you? 700 is a large fixed income department to have located in one trading floor, but it's by no means "too many."

Disclaimer: I didn't know anybody who worked for Cantor Fitzgerlad, but I did know people who died in 9/11, and I also worked in investment banking for 8 years.

Again, a big :down: from me.

[Steveknj]

Was this the same special that was on last year? If so, it was very interesting. I had a friend who belived all the conspiracy theories and I had her watch that special. I thought it did a great job, scientifically of explaining why what happened DID occur, and why these conspiracy theorist are wrong. The one think I kind of take out of this was that, like what's happening with health care, the fringe element take ONE or TWO details out of thousands and use that as the springboard to their theories rather than take the big picture together.

As someone who was 4 blocks from the WTC and passed it about 30 minutes prior to plane 1 hitting, I find it all pretty insulting. Scariest day of my life.

[Rob Helmerichs]

The one think I kind of take out of this was that, like what's happening with health care, the fringe element take ONE or TWO details out of thousands and use that as the springboard to their theories rather than take the big picture together.
I saw a book once about conspiracy thinking that I can't for the life of me find now. The basic thesis is that conspiracy theorists take certain facts, remove them from their original context, construct a narrative around them, and then ignore anything that doesn't fit their narrative. It was a brilliant description, and it kills me that I can't remember where I read it.

(I call it "Mulder-think" because it's EXACTLY the way Fox Mulder thought on the X-Files, except of course he was always right when he should have always been wrong. Nice to have your writer be as crazy as you! :D)

[NatasNJ]

Do they discuss the thermite and molten lava pit consipracy?

[MickeS]

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/9-11-science-and-conspiracy-4067/Overview

Airs again tomorrow too, apparently.

[BWINKLER92]

Verdugan, I was just asking the question, were they selling the scam mortgage securities or not, and you did not know so don't criticize me till you or I do know.

Yes it would affect how I would feel about their deaths, if they were scamming and were not there they would have been in other scams hurting people then. The fact it was a boiler room and in such a high rent building (why?) sure would make sense with the way the scammers toss money around to look important, and would not make sense if they were just trading grandma's RCA bonds.

See if anyone can find out, but my money is on them being part of the big banking scam that had just begun then. They packaged the scam loans to look legit and then sold to legit banks and big brokerages, they were like a money laundry to hide what securities were really worth and the risk. This is just what caused the crash and loss of many peoples retirement savings so you bet it would affect how I feel about those 700.

[MegaHertz67]

Do they discuss the thermite and molten lava pit consipracy?Thermite and "super" thermite were discussed. What's the "molten lava pit conspiracy?"

[5thcrewman]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

...And looks like Van Jones

[kaszeta]

I saw a book once about conspiracy thinking that I can't for the life of me find now.

There's some of this in Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things":

http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0716733870

Good book. I should re-read it.

[NatasNJ]

Thermite and "super" thermite were discussed. What's the "molten lava pit conspiracy?"

How Sat images show insane heat readings off the site weeks after the debris was removed and it was essential a thermite pool or something.
I think it is tied in with the thermite.

[MickeS]

What's the "molten lava pit conspiracy?"
Another mole to whack.

[Unbeliever]

The basic thesis is that conspiracy theorists take certain facts, remove them from their original context, construct a narrative around them, and then ignore anything that doesn't fit their narrative.

The term is "confirmation bias".

--Carlos V.

[wmcbrine]

I had a friend who belived all the conspiracy theories and I had her watch that special.Well, don't keep us in suspense... what did she make of it?

[speaker city]

Thermite and "super" thermite were discussed. What's the "molten lava pit conspiracy?"

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html

A report in the Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine about recovery work in late October quotes Alison Geyh, Ph.D., as stating:
Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel

But I'm sure Dr. Geyh and the other researchers at Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine are just nutjobs and wing nuts :rolleyes:

[MickeS]

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html



But I'm sure Dr. Geyh and the other researchers at Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine are just nutjobs and wing nuts :rolleyes:
So... molten steel and fires remaining in pockets a long time later (which makes perfect sense to me) proves what? I don't get it. I'm pretty sure this was reported all over the news at the time (certainly the fires and the smoke was, which would indicate intense heat), so I've never paid much attention to why this would have been proof of some conspiracy.

[DevdogAZ]

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html



But I'm sure Dr. Geyh and the other researchers at Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine are just nutjobs and wing nuts :rolleyes:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7481348#post7481348

[verdugan]

This is just what caused the crash and loss of many peoples retirement savings so you bet it would affect how I feel about those 700.

You obviously believe in conspiracy theories based on the language you use. I feel sorry for you. There's no need to reply as you're going on my ignore list, and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than I already have.

BTW, I looked up Cantor Fitzgerald. They have a lot of different business, but their main one is US treasuries (about 25% of the market). Their mortgage security business is all of 13 traders and only $1.5 billion (as per their website).

Oh, and that pricey real estate? All the firms were down there in that area, after all, it's wall street. :rolleyes:

[BWINKLER92]

The important thing is what they were doing in 2001, sure today they are going to be out of the mortgage mess, you can't go by what they say they are doing today just as you can't the other big banks that got taken in. To read their web sites they were always strong and so safe.

But we know what happened because they had to be bailed out where these people died so we don't know about then. You can read now on bank websites how strong and safe they are too but we know otherwise, but not till 2008.

But my opinion is just as proper as yours is, a forum is for different views to be expressed you know, or I guess you don't since afraid to read. I stand by what I think they were all doing and I bet I am correct.

[verdugan]

We agree on something. You're free to post whatever you want. I just said that you shouldn't expect me to continue this conversation.

[netringer]

I saw a book once about conspiracy thinking that I can't for the life of me find now. The basic thesis is that conspiracy theorists take certain facts, remove them from their original context, construct a narrative around them, and then ignore anything that doesn't fit their narrative. It was a brilliant description, and it kills me that I can't remember where I read it.

(I call it "Mulder-think" because it's EXACTLY the way Fox Mulder thought on the X-Files, except of course he was always right when he should have always been wrong. Nice to have your writer be as crazy as you! :D)

That's it in a nutshell, not only form conspiracy theories but the silly UFO believers and such as the "Bermuda Triangle" believers.

The key thing is you can't disprove a negative.

I still say nobody can prove it wasn't interference by the beings from an alternate dimension taking advantage of a short term temporal anomaly.

[netringer]

This experiment is all the proof you need that metal doesn't burn, isn't it?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x56836

[BWINKLER92]

I saw this show in rerun and I am just amazed the other side had no conspiracy group to name or any motivation for the attacks at all. In fact if all these explosives are there why do you need airplanes? Then the silliness about phantom planes, who would pilot those and no explanation of what became of the real ones, I mean this is really silly.

9/11 certainly was a conspiracy, but by moslems, why would that never be mentioned? I had the idea these people were smart enough to think their hate of the US would be met by some super rich on our side (like a Bill Gates) who might then want to take over the stocks after such an attack with the idea of controlling the world, that would at least have made a little sense and with the arab money and hate for us fitting in really well.

I wonder why such a stock plot was never considered? Wrecking the economy was never mentioned!! I do still wonder today how much stocks the arabs bought after 9/11, thought that ought to have been researched, then they might have a real argument and admit planes were really hijacked and all that instead of the nonsense about explosives being in the buildings.

[nataylor]

Finally watched this. Great to see EMRTC getting more TV time. I've mentioned this in Mythbusters and Man vs. Cartoon threads, but I used to work there when I was a student as New Mexico Tech.

[wmcbrine]

I saw this show in rerun and I am just amazed the other side had no conspiracy group to name or any motivation for the attacks at all.I haven't seen the show, but isn't it just that that's not what it was about? The show covered technical aspects of the collapses, yes? My understanding is that the "truthers" are quite prepared to allege a variety of names and motives.

[Steveknj]

I watched this over the weekend, and it was a different special than I had seen last year on a similar topic. the book they mentioned during the special that talked about why people believe in some of these crackpot theories was called Voodoo Histories:
http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Histories-Conspiracy-Shaping-History/dp/1594488959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252429705&sr=8-1

Appearently this is not out yet, but the author talked about why people have theories like this and compared this with JFK, Pearl Harbor, etc. They talked about the fact that in these cases, these are folks who feel they are NEVER given all the information about things they believe they should have. So they question things and come up with crackpot theories. I will have to pick this book up when it comes out.

While I was far from a supporter of the Bush Administration and I do believe that they used 9/11 as the springboard to administering their neo-conservative agenda, the events of 9/11 were more serendipous than planned for them.

[BWINKLER92]

Wmcbrine, Well I recall they actually said they didn't get into that, and the way it was said it meant they had no ideas at all. See if when you watch you don't get the same meaning. It would sure be important to their case as to how so many people could be in on it and who paid all the costs. Arabs have that kind of money yet never are mentioned. But I do recall they asked them on the show about motives a couple of times.

Yes it was mainly about the explosives, I would like the crew to have asked more about where you get phantom airplanes and why you even need to bother American and United if you have them, just crash the phantom planes then, huh? I wonder who would pilot those?

Why hijack anything if you already have the same planes? Yet they never asked them any questions about that. Why have planes if you already had explosives ready too? No questions about that, so it was sure not much of a debate except just if a fuel fire is hot enough. It was.

[Steveknj]

Wmcbrine, Well I recall they actually said they didn't get into that, and the way it was said it meant they had no ideas at all. See if when you watch you don't get the same meaning. It would sure be important to their case as to how so many people could be in on it and who paid all the costs. Arabs have that kind of money yet never are mentioned. But I do recall they asked them on the show about motives a couple of times.

Yes it was mainly about the explosives, I would like the crew to have asked more about where you get phantom airplanes and why you even need to bother American and United if you have them, just crash the phantom planes then, huh? I wonder who would pilot those?

Why hijack anything if you already have the same planes? Yet they never asked them any questions about that. Why have planes if you already had explosives ready too? No questions about that, so it was sure not much of a debate except just if a fuel fire is hot enough. It was.

It was funny that everytime they showed them one of those experiments that disproved their theory X, they would come back with, "That explains nothing" and then talk about a completely different theory they have.

[ldconfig]

One little fact every one seems to ignore. In April 01 The Justice Dept. asked congress for enhanced law enforcement powers and got told no in a big hurry and like magic 9/11 happened and Ashcroft and co. got everything they wanted and then some ... see The (UN)Patroit Act.
ld

[NatasNJ]

One little fact every one seems to ignore. In April 01 The Justice Dept. asked congress for enhanced law enforcement powers and got told no in a big hurry and like magic 9/11 happened and Ashcroft and co. got everything they wanted and then some ... see The (UN)Patroit Act.
ld

Your comment MEANS nothing and proves nothing. Speculation and nothing more.

[ldconfig]

Its in the Congregational record about the requests in April 01 and the patroit act is real also ... no speculation here
ld

[nataylor]

Its in the Congregational record about the requests in April 01 and the patroit act is real also ... no speculation here
ld

The speculation is that there is any connection between that and 9/11 happening.

[ldconfig]

OK on that i agree ... but i think it stinks to high heaven. Do i think the gooberment did 9/11 heck no. Theres no way the folks in gooberment are smart enough to pull that off without any leaks in 8 years.
ld

[busyba]

One little fact every one seems to ignore. In April 01 The Justice Dept. asked congress for enhanced law enforcement powers and got told no in a big hurry and like magic 9/11 happened and Ashcroft and co. got everything they wanted and then some ... see The (UN)Patroit Act.
ld

BZZZZZZZZT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

But thanks for playing, enjoy this copy of our home game.

[Church AV Guy]

They can hardly do justice to a topic this big in a two hour show, but I thought the program did a reasonable job, given time and expense limitations, of testing the most cogent arguements made by the Truthers. I was reasonably satisfied that the results refuted at least part of the conspiracy theories. This in no way convinced the Truthers, but how could you actually make a fully valid test in their eyes without actually rebuilding a WTC tower and hit it with a plane. I realize that there are unanswered questions, and that much of the event was nearly unexplainable, but the event itself is unprecidented, so it is quite likely to not fit into existing phenomenon. The persistant burning, the vertical collapse, and other stuff I can't remember now, sound suspicious. The show at least provided very little information or suggestion for a motive for a conspiracy. What exactly were the conspirators after? If the Truthers have theories for this, those were not presented.

[alansh]

The vertical collapse is actually one of the more convincing things, in that it's counter to people's expectations but it's what would really happen. A structure that big simply can't tip over, because as soon as it's a few degrees off center, the off-center forces will collapse its supports, leading to a vertical drop. If you drop the top 1/3 of the WTC on top of the lower 2/3s, it's going to pancake the rest of the structure.

[bruinfan]

i caught part of this... but:

i watched loose change... and while i'm not a big conspiracy nut, a few things did make me question the events:

1. building 7, they say there was no reason for this building to fall, and the building housed some kind of department.... did they address this?

2. the pittsburgh plane, united 93... they show aerial news footage of the crash site, and there's no plane.. no wreckage.... everything disintegrates, yet they are able to find passports of hijackers... did they address this?

[nataylor]

i caught part of this... but:

i watched loose change... and while i'm not a big conspiracy nut, a few things did make me question the events:

1. building 7, they say there was no reason for this building to fall, and the building housed some kind of department.... did they address this?

2. the pittsburgh plane, united 93... they show aerial news footage of the crash site, and there's no plane.. no wreckage.... everything disintegrates, yet they are able to find passports of hijackers... did they address this?

They didn't talk about building 7 or about recovering passports.

[busyba]

i caught part of this... but:

i watched loose change... and while i'm not a big conspiracy nut, a few things did make me question the events:

1. building 7, they say there was no reason for this building to fall, and the building housed some kind of department.... did they address this?

I didn't see the show, so I don't know what was addressed, but bldg 7 contained, among other things, the NYC Emergency Command Center. It was in WTC 7 instead of a secure remote location because (short story) Rudy Giuliani is a massive idiot. In support of the command center, WTC 7 had a ton of fuel stored in the basement to run the emergency generators. I imagine that all that fuel probably was a contributing factor in the building being destroyed in a fire.

[alansh]

And there certainly was aircraft parts at the United 93 site -- see the pictures on this page (http://emptv.com/research/loose-change-4).

That site, BTW, addresses "Loose Change" scene-by-scene. Quick version: "Loose Change" is all lies. A lot of their misstatements can't possibly be mistakes.