Understanding Tivo's recording behavior - quick question

[eagle63]

I'm a new Tivo owner who recently switched from Mythtv, and I hit an interesting situation over the weekend that I'm not fully understanding.

Here's the scenario: I was watching a Harry Potter movie on live TV and paused it for a while. (about 25 minutes or so) Then I un-paused, and continued watching the show. (so far so good) Also, I should note that during this entire time the 2nd Tuner on my Tivo was recording another show.

All of a sudden (right at 6:30pm), Tivo kicks me out of the live-tv show I was watching, and switches me to the beginning of the show that Tuner 2 was recording. WTF?! I went back to the main menu and then back into live TV, only to discover that I was now watching (real-time) a different Harrry Potter movie that had just started. After looking at the program guide, I discovered that the new Harry Potter movie began at 6:30pm.

SO... my theory is that once I hit 6:30pm, Tivo cleared the buffer and then "started fresh" with the next Harry Potter that began at 6:30. Since I was 25 minutes deep into that buffer, I got booted.

So my questions are:

1. Is my theory correct, or might something else explain what happened?

2. If my theory IS correct, does Tivo always just dump the buffer when one program ends and another begins? (that can't be the case..... can it?)

Thanks for any help!!

[Turtleboy]

Tivo dumps the buffer when it changes channels, always, even with two tuners.

I'm not sure why it changed the channel though.

[bkdtv]

I would guess you have Suggestions enabled. If you have Suggestions enabled, the TiVo will change the channel after a period of remote inactivity (30 minutes?) to record another program it think you will like, based on the other programs you've recorded.

If you previously recorded one Harry Potter movie, or other programs in the same genre, and then TiVo thought you were idle on the current tuner (because you didn't use any trickplay functions recently), then it could have switched channels on that tuner to record another Harry Potter movie that it thought you would like.

If you don't ever want the TiVo changing channels to record programs it thinks you will like, when it "thinks" you are not watching TV, then you can disable Suggestions under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Recording -> Suggestions.

Since you are new to TiVo, be sure to see the stickied Using TiVo (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7097286#post7097286) thread.

[janry]

Maybe the 2nd tuner began recording a suggestion. Not sure if suggestions will do that though as I never use them. If not a suggestion, maybe you had a wishlist for the 6:30 movie.

[eagle63]

Tuner 2 was busy the whole time with another recording. (a season-pass recording) I understand that the buffer gets cleared if you change the channel, but I never changed the channel at all.

I DO have suggestions enabled, because as a new Tivo user I figured I should try it out for a while to get the full "Tivo experience." However, if you mean to tell me that if will kick me out of live tv because it thinks I'm not watching (based on remote inactivity) and then start recording a suggestion, then I'm going to disable that "feature" immediately.

[bkdtv]

However, if you mean to tell me that if will kick me out of live tv because it thinks I'm not watching (based on remote inactivity) and then start recording a suggestion, then I'm going to disable that "feature" immediately.That's what it does.

Suggestions will use the inactive tuner by default, but of course that tuner was occupied with a scheduled recording.

You only run into this situation if you watch a lot of liveTV while your TV is recording other programs. If that's the way you use the DVR, then you're probably better off disabling that feature.

[eagle63]

That's what it does.

Suggestions will use the inactive tuner by default, but of course that tuner was occupied with a scheduled recording.

You only run into this situation if you watch a lot of liveTV while your TV is recording other programs. If that's the way you use the DVR, then you're probably better off disabling that feature.

To be honest, I actually don't watch a lot of live tv - this was not a typical use-case for me. What's the consensus among seasoned Tivo users - is the Suggestions feature worthwhile, or do most disable it? If most don't find a lot of value in it, then I'll probably disable it too. (MythTV doesn't do this, so I'm not really missing anything by disabling it)

Thanks to all for your responses.

[Turtleboy]

Tuner 2 was busy the whole time with another recording. (a season-pass recording) I understand that the buffer gets cleared if you change the channel, but I never changed the channel at all.

I DO have suggestions enabled, because as a new Tivo user I figured I should try it out for a while to get the full "Tivo experience." However, if you mean to tell me that if will kick me out of live tv because it thinks I'm not watching (based on remote inactivity) and then start recording a suggestion, then I'm going to disable that "feature" immediately.

It does do that. However, it also should warn you. It should tell you that the Tivo wants to change to another channel to record a suggestion, and click no if you don't want it too.

[MikeMar]

Keep the suggestions but next time if you are watching the buffer and know you will be, just hit record :)

[eagle63]

It does do that. However, it also should warn you. It should tell you that the Tivo wants to change to another channel to record a suggestion, and click no if you don't want it too.

Hmm, I definitely didn't get any kind of warning... Maybe for now I'll leave suggestions enabled and just keep on eye on things to see if this happens again. Thanks,

[mattack]

I leave suggestions on *only* for a free space indicator.

It sounds like you actually hit, at 6:30, the "end" of the buffer.. at that point, it did jump back to live TV.

Others have incorrectly stated that the buffer is dumped when you change channels. That is incorrect. If you are 'rewound' from the real time, then you can look at that existing buffer, even if that tuner is being used for a recording. But once you hit the very end, THEN the buffer is dumped.

[Jonathan_S]

Others have incorrectly stated that the buffer is dumped when you change channels. That is incorrect. If you are 'rewound' from the real time, then you can look at that existing buffer, even if that tuner is being used for a recording. But once you hit the very end, THEN the buffer is dumped.Technically that's "once you hit the very end, or otherwise exit the buffer, THEN the buffer is dumped".

Even if you paused it and then left that 'orphaned' buffer to do something in the menu's there's no way to get back to it.

[Rick313]

What's the consensus among seasoned Tivo users - is the Suggestions feature worthwhile, or do most disable it?

Personally, I think it's great. There are several shows that I like to watch from time to time, but I don't need to see every episode, so I just let TiVo Suggestions handle it. It also records movies or specials occasionally that I otherwise would have missed. It takes a few weeks to teach TiVo what you like and don't like, but from then on, it works very well.

[spocko]

I turned off the automatic recording of suggestions. However I still find the feature useful because I can peruse the list of suggestions and manually select programs to record.

[nycityuser]

I've never used the automatic recording of Suggestions. When I peruse the list of shows that it suggests I find that almost none of them are to my liking. Just because I watch Keith Olbermann on MSNBC doesn't mean I want to watch Rachel Maddow on the same channel or Bill O'Reilly on Fox. And if I like one piece of classic TV it doesn't mean I'll like another.

But that's just me.

[daveak]

I like the suggestions, always something in there I might just want to watch. And if you have guests over, you may just have a recording of that one show they want to watch. It also catches shows that get put into kid zone- and usually that is just fine...

And it is always comforting to see a good number of TiVo suggestions - if the suggestions start getting low, then the disk is getting full of YOUR recording suggestions.

[ThaddeusMcP]

Suggestions should not be the drive as aside from programming in KidZone they take lowest priority on the recording spectrum. Try to duplicate the problem but it kinda sounds like it just freeked out. hey if you were that into the movie, DEDICATE THAT TUNER!

[segaily]

I leave suggestions on. I do not get a lot of use out of it but enough. What happened here does sound odd, but then again I almost always hit record if I am watching live TV. I have changed channels by mistake to many times and lost buffers to risk it anymore.

[fallingwater]

You only run into this situation if you watch a lot of liveTV while your TV is recording other programs. If that's the way you use the DVR, then you're probably better off disabling that feature.

TiVo is optimized for timeshifting and is the only DVR specifically designed for watching almost all TV on a delayed basis.

Unless other peripheral TiVo qualities besides Suggestions are important to a user, many viewers who prefer to watch a fair amount of TV live might do better to select another DVR or recorder.

Examples of TiVo's other peripheral qualities are that (1) TiVo sets the gold standard for reliability although its competition has now improved to be within the same order of magnitude, (2) TiVo offers a method of recording from an external source through its analog tuners which cable DVR's don't and (3) also offers the capability of properly scaling images for anamorphic recording when its output is sent to a DVD recorder.

Other TiVo peripherals include many internet based services, plus a frivolous one (involving pizza)! :p:

[eagle63]

As I stated earlier, I really don't watch a lot of live TV - this was kind of an anomaly. It's also not a big deal that it happened- it just made me curious as a new Tivo user to understand why it happened. As a longtime MythTV user, I'm not very familiar with having a buffer - Myth records liveTV as a true recoding (a first class citizen, if you will) as it would any other recording, rather than using a buffer. It's a much better solution, IMO, and hopefully something that Tivo would consider implementing someday.

If I get some time this weekend I might try to replicate the scenario just to make sure it doesn't happen again. Assuming it doesn't, I'll chalk this up to a weird one-off event.

[astrohip]

I leave suggestions on *only* for a free space indicator.
Wouldn't the Recently Deleted Folder achieve the exact same purpose, without requiring the use of suggestions?

[bkdtv]

Wouldn't the Recently Deleted Folder achieve the exact same purpose, without requiring the use of suggestions?Yes.

[mattack]

Wouldn't the Recently Deleted Folder achieve the exact same purpose, without requiring the use of suggestions?

Similar, but Recently Deleted + Suggestions can be *slightly* more accurate.

e.g. lets say I have 5 hours of shows in recently deleted.. I have a new half hour show record, so now there are only 4 hours of shows in recently deleted. But a half hour suggestion can still record, so now I have a more accurate "4.5 hours of free space", rather than 4 hours if I only used recently deleted.

Yes, I'm hand-waving over the differences in file sizes, etc., but still use this method as a general gauge.

*Also*, I'm just in this mindset because of my usage of S1s, which have no recently deleted folder.

(I realize, some could argue that my need to micromanage free space is extreme.. But as I have explained many other times, if I set everything as keep until I delete, I would then be bombarded by far more dialogs when I try to manually record something, because it thinks there won't be space. So I now live with *most* recordings that the Tivo thinks it can delete.... but use the "FSI workarounds" mentioned above to gauge if I have enough space to record today's To Do list items that I usually check before I go to work, especially on days like today, when I go out.)

[realityboy]

As I stated earlier, I really don't watch a lot of live TV - this was kind of an anomaly. It's also not a big deal that it happened- it just made me curious as a new Tivo user to understand why it happened. As a longtime MythTV user, I'm not very familiar with having a buffer - Myth records liveTV as a true recoding (a first class citizen, if you will) as it would any other recording, rather than using a buffer. It's a much better solution, IMO, and hopefully something that Tivo would consider implementing someday.

If I get some time this weekend I might try to replicate the scenario just to make sure it doesn't happen again. Assuming it doesn't, I'll chalk this up to a weird one-off event.

If you don't watch live tv often, the easiest thing to do is just hit record on the movie that you are watching, and then delete it when you are done. That way no recordings (suggestions or otherwise) will make it change the channel. It sounds like that tuner changed to record something at 6:30, but since you weren't caught up, you didn't notice until you did catch up.

[astrohip]

Similar, but Recently Deleted + Suggestions can be *slightly* more accurate.

e.g. lets say I have 5 hours of shows in recently deleted..
This is where the discussion ends for me. :) I have a 750GB drive, and right now have 97 shows in the RD folder. I don't debate 1/2 hour segments. :D

Of course, it's also the end of summer, and I'm so desperate for something to watch that I'm actually (finally) watching some shows I recorded in 2007! Once the new season kicks off, the RD folder will shrink by about half.

[mattack]

This is where the discussion ends for me. :) I have a 750GB drive, and right now have 97 shows in the RD folder. I don't debate 1/2 hour segments.

I have a 1 TB drive in the S3, and I am dealing with half hour segments!! and most of it is recorded in basic quality!

(though I am finally transferring some stuff to a computer drive -- even though I can't edit it on a Mac... and actually, some of the stuff I'm transferring IS one of the few things I ever recorded in Best quality -- the last season of 'er'. I will likely eventually buy it on DVD, and will delete my Tivoed recordings then. Lots of the rest is full talk shows where I really only want to save the musical performance.)

[lrhorer]

To be honest, I actually don't watch a lot of live tv - this was not a typical use-case for me. What's the consensus among seasoned Tivo users - is the Suggestions feature worthwhile, or do most disable it? If most don't find a lot of value in it, then I'll probably disable it too. (MythTV doesn't do this, so I'm not really missing anything by disabling it)

Not only do I consider it worthwhile, but I consider it one of the most important features of the TiVo. It is certainly unique to the TiVo, and it is an extremely powerful feature from a number of aspects. It can require a small amount of thought be put into your TiVo useage to make whatever specific uses of Suggestions you may find most appealing, however.

For example, there are a fair number of old series whose episodes I have mostly seen (Golden Girls, Night Court, The Outer Limits, Barney Miller, Soap, etc.) or perhaps in some cases have seen all episodes more than once (M*A*S*H, Star Trek, Cheers, Wings, etc.) but I still occasionally enjoy watching from time to time. There are also newer programs I like - series or otherwise - that may catch my fancy now and then. While having such programs in some abundance available to watch when the mood strikes me is of very significant value, I do not want any of these programs to overwrite a scheduled program or prevent a scheduled program from being recorded. Suggestions fits the bill perfectly, and I don't have to worry about scanning endlessly through the myriad available channels to find when one of them might be available somewhere.

As to the situation you describe, with the very rare exception of a newscast once every few months, I never, EVER watch "live" TV. If I happen to be sitting watching TV at 22:00 - which is very rare in itself, every once in a great while I will watch the ten o'clock news. Other than that, I haven't watched a "live" program in over ten years. 'Problem solved. If in your case you do find yourself watching "live" TV, and don't want to risk having the channel changed on you after a period of inactivity due to background activity on the Tivo, just press the <Record> key.

By the way, it may not have been a suggestion being recorded which dumped you out. It might have been a scheduled recording, and you may have missed the pop-up screen letting you know the TiVo was going to change channels. If you press <Record>, then the TiVo will let you know immediately if there is a scheduled recording conflict. It will simply cancel any Suggestion if need be without comment.

[lrhorer]

I've never used the automatic recording of Suggestions. When I peruse the list of shows that it suggests I find that almost none of them are to my liking. Just because I watch Keith Olbermann on MSNBC doesn't mean I want to watch Rachel Maddow on the same channel or Bill O'Reilly on Fox. And if I like one piece of classic TV it doesn't mean I'll like another.
It does require an understanding of how the Suggestions algorithm works and a little bit of management. One must judiciously and somewhat faithfully use the <Thumbs Up> and Thumbs Down> keys, at least for a time. Doing so will tell the TiVo what you like and why and what you don't like. It's amazingly good at figuring out what you do and don't like based upon your input. If you <Thumbs Up> Rachel Maddow once or twice and <Thumbs Down> the other two two or three times, then it won't record the others, but will record Maddow. Is it perfect? No, of course not, but wading through 100 or so programs of which you care little for 15 or 20 is much, much easier than wading through thousands of programs for which you care nothing for all but 80 or so - the list of 80 or so being the same 80 or so you like out of the 100. I have no idea who any of the people you mention are, but having given two or three <Thumbs Up> to one and two or three <Thumbs Down> to the other, you might be amazed at what the TiVo suggests for you. After a couple of dozen or so votes, it can be downright astounding how good the selections get.

Look at it this way: would you prefer to be offered a mound of 10 tons of fruit, all but 10 Kg of which is spoiled, or a pile of 12Kg of fruit, 2Kg of which is spoiled? TiVo suggestions can quite effectively get rid of 9988Kg out of the 9990Kg of garbage for you, leaving only 2Kg for you to discard yourself. What's the down side?

People speak as if having a suggestion on their TiVo they don't want to watch is somehow a detriment to them. It isn't. If you don't want to watch it, then don't watch it. It will be overwritten eventually, and it does no harm in the mean time. If it is a series, and you don't ever want to have it recorded again, then give it a <Thumbs Down>. If you really dislike it - series or not - then give it 2 or 3 <Thumbs Down>. In the mean time, it is no more a "problem" than all the tens of thousands of other shows in the TV lineup the user doesn't want to watch. The difference is, with Suggestions, the size of the "junk" list can be very small, rather than absolutely enormous. Not only that, but the "good stuff" it finds is sitting, waiting to be watched. You don't have to select it and then wait for it to be recorded.

[lrhorer]

This is where the discussion ends for me. :) I have a 750GB drive, and right now have 97 shows in the RD folder. I don't debate 1/2 hour segments. :D
This is something it seems like you understand that a lot of people do not. For any live stream of data whose input over a long time period does not exceed its output, a FIFO buffer whose size increases eventually becomes essentially infinite despite the fact the buffer itself is finite. In simpler terms, and specifically WRT to the TiVo, once a family's hard drive exceeds a certain size - that size being determined by the specific viewing habits of the family - the drive will never "overfow", meaning the owners do not have to ordinarily worry about a program they have recorded being accidentally overwritten before they have a chance to watch it. To put it another way, once the drive exceeds a certain size, there will always be at least a few shows in the RD and / or Suggestions folder.

Barring accidental deletions, the RD folder generally speaking consists entirely of "junk", which is to say stuff the user does not want to watch. Consequently, for the RD folder to be of any significant size is just a waste of drive space. Filling that space with Suggestions to some extent means replacing some of the RD "junk" with Suggestions "junk", which is admittedly of no particular benefit. OTOH, it isn't of any particular harm, either. The rest of the Suggestions, however, are not junk. Even if one's Suggestions are so poorly enabled as to have 80% garbage and only 20% of interesting programs, that's still 20% more than not having them turned on.

[fallingwater]

...as a new Tivo user I figured I should try (Suggestions) out for a while to get the full "Tivo experience." However, if you mean to tell me that if will kick me out of live tv because it thinks I'm not watching (based on remote inactivity) and then start recording a suggestion, then I'm going to disable that "feature" immediately.

...What's the consensus among seasoned Tivo users - is the Suggestions feature worthwhile, or do most disable it?

...As a longtime MythTV user, I'm not very familiar with having a buffer - Myth records liveTV as a true recoding (a first class citizen, if you will) as it would any other recording, rather than using a buffer...

If you like TiVo's Suggestions and other unique featues based on TiVo's mini-Google search capabilities, by all means use them! :) You're certainly free to disable or ignore them if you'd prefer.

Why did you switch to TiVo from MythTV? What are MythTV's limitations? Does MythTV require that all programming watched using it be preselected? Is live the only way to watch anything not preselected, thus losing the ability to RW or FF through it? Wiki's overview presents MythTV as an almost ideal solution for users desiring a hi-tech PC based TV recording system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythTV

[lrhorer]

What are MythTV's limitations? Does MythTV require that all programming watched using it be preselected? Is live the only way to watch anything not preselected, thus losing the ability to RW or FF through it? Wiki's overview presents MythTV as an almost ideal solution for users desiring a hi-tech PC based TV recording system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythTV

Read the link you yourself posted. The biggest drawback is spelled out clearly in the third section under "HDTV Support". HD support is OTA or clear channel QAM only. 'Major deal killer.

For a lot of people, the fact it is a DIY system running under Linux is too much of a drawback, as well, although it wouldn't be for me. It's possible the OP grew weary of tweaking and babysitting the system.

[eagle63]

Why did you switch to TiVo from MythTV? What are MythTV's limitations? Does MythTV require that all programming watched using it be preselected? Is live the only way to watch anything not preselected, thus losing the ability to RW or FF through it? Wiki's overview presents MythTV as an almost ideal solution for users desiring a hi-tech PC based TV recording system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythTV

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "preselected", but Mythtv does not go off and record shows it thinks you might like such as Tivo does. It only records what you tell it to record. When you watch live tv, it's recording it and saving it to your list of recorded shows just like a "real" recording would. (instead of using a buffer which has a finite size)

I love Mythtv and have used it for years, but I made the switch to Tivo for 2 core reasons:

1. HD. Getting HD on any do-it-yourself DVR is a real challenge. There's no cable-card support, so your only real option is to record the unencrypted HD channels which are usually just the major networks. There is a product out there called HD-PVR made by Hauppauge which will allow you to record HD, but the DVR support for it is still experimental. (and it requires you to have a cable box which has component-out jacks)

2. Ease of use/stability. Mythtv can be extremely stable, but no matter what anyone else tells you, it's a hobby. It's a fun hobby, and I miss playing with it, but with kids, wife, and in-laws, I needed an appliance not a hobby. Tivo is an appliance.

Mythtv is infinitely configurable, and it has a very nice architecture - it's a client/server based so you can have a server sitting in your basement which does all the recording. It doesn't need much power, just a lot of disk. You then run a separate "frontend" computer which hooks up to your TV. (or multiple frontends - one for each TV) In this way you just stream the shows/music/etc to each frontend independently, rather than having to copy shows between machines like you do with Tivo's MRV.

I'm going to stick with Tivo for at least a year and then re-assess the DIY DVR landscape. If there is an easier and more foolproof way to get all my HD channels onto Myth, then I might switch back. But my guess is that it won't happen. :(

[fallingwater]

...Why did you switch to TiVo from MythTV? What are MythTV's limitations? Does MythTV require that all programming watched using it be preselected? Is live the only way to watch anything not preselected, thus losing the ability to RW or FF through it? Wiki's overview presents MythTV as an almost ideal solution for users desiring a hi-tech PC based TV recording system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythTV

Read the link you yourself posted. The biggest drawback is spelled out clearly in the third section under "HDTV Support". HD support is OTA or clear channel QAM only. 'Major deal killer.

For a lot of people, the fact it is a DIY system running under Linux is too much of a drawback, as well, although it wouldn't be for me. It's possible the OP grew weary of tweaking and babysitting the system.

Did you ever consider that your often condescending style inadvertantly and perhaps arguably makes you the least effective of TCF TiVo fans.

In this instance you pointed out useful information which I wasn't quick enough to sort through and evaluate. But regarding style, suppose you had posted; 'The biggest drawback is spelled out clearly in the HDTV Support section of the Wiki link you posted.'

(FYI, in the Contents listing towards the top of the Wiki entry, HDTV Support is shown as #2.)

Obviously MythTV is a specialized hi-tech solution for recording TV programming, and isn't a significant competitor for TiVo or Moxi. My question assumed that limitation but I asked it to learn MythTV's shortcomings as experienced by a self-identified long time user.

For me hi-def being limited to OTA or clear QAM is not a deal killer at all. That's precisely how I use TiVo, Sony, and Moxi DVRs, none of which employ CableCARDS.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "preselected", but Mythtv does not go off and record shows it thinks you might like such as Tivo does.

TiVo is the only recording product which offers Suggestions. TiVo's signature feature is being a mini-Google for TV, its TV data search engine is behind the majority of TiVo's specialties.

(MythTV) only records what you tell it to record. When you watch live tv, it's recording it and saving it to your list of recorded shows just like a "real" recording would. (instead of using a buffer which has a finite size)

A HDD has finite size though. If all live TV is recorded doesn't your server PC's HDD fill up quickly. How does MythTV deal with segmenting live TV into programs; automatically, from online EPG info?

I love Mythtv and have used it for years, but I made the switch to Tivo for 2 core reasons:

1. HD. Getting HD on any do-it-yourself DVR is a real challenge. There's no cable-card support, so your only real option is to record the unencrypted HD channels which are usually just the major networks. There is a product out there called HD-PVR made by Hauppauge which will allow you to record HD, but the DVR support for it is still experimental. (and it requires you to have a cable box which has component-out jacks)

2. Ease of use/stability. Mythtv can be extremely stable, but no matter what anyone else tells you, it's a hobby. It's a fun hobby, and I miss playing with it, but with kids, wife, and in-laws, I needed an appliance not a hobby. Tivo is an appliance.

My low tech approach to recording, including several types of DVD recorders, is essentially a hobby, nothing more. I have way too many TV recorders for the small amount of TV I care about. The biggest draw for me is comparing the ease and functionality of different approaches toward accomplishing the mundane but potentially entertaining task of recording TV shows.

Mythtv is infinitely configurable, and it has a very nice architecture - it's a client/server based so you can have a server sitting in your basement which does all the recording. It doesn't need much power, just a lot of disk. You then run a separate "frontend" computer which hooks up to your TV. (or multiple frontends - one for each TV) In this way you just stream the shows/music/etc to each frontend independently, rather than having to copy shows between machines like you do with Tivo's MRV.

I'm going to stick with Tivo for at least a year and then re-assess the DIY DVR landscape. If there is an easier and more foolproof way to get all my HD channels onto Myth, then I might switch back. But my guess is that it won't happen. :(

Thanks for your fairly detailed explanation. I'm ignorant about PC based recording systems, primarily because they're an overkill solution for me. (For that matter, so is TiVo. :eek:) I do enjoy understanding the underlying concepts however.