Dual Tuner S3 Program Overlap Question

[w2jo]

I have a Dual Tuner S3 and have a question about Dual Tuner operation.

When you enter a NEW program record request AND the Tivo is already scheduled to record TWO programs during that same time period, then:

1) Tivo notifies you of the conflict and tells you that if you go ahead with the recording request, ONE of your previously scheduled programs WILL NOT RECORD. Question: How do you know WHICH program of the two scheduled to record will be deleted from the TO DO list?

2) In the above instance, is there any way to influence which program Tivo will remove from the TO DO list?

Thanks.
Joe

[bkdtv]

Season Pass Manager (under Find Programs) always determines what two programs are recorded when three or more conflict. The lowest priority program is always the one to be skipped.

As per the stickied Using TiVo FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7097286#post7097286):

What's the best way to arrange my series recordings in Season Pass Manager?

The Season Pass Manager determines what two series are recorded when three or more programs conflict. If three programs conflict, the TiVo will record the first two and look for a repeat showing of the third program.

It is best to place ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC series at the top of your priority list, because those don't typically repeat. Stick cable programs that repeat at the bottom of your list.

To avoid unnecessary processing, do not click on any program until you've arranged everything in the order you want.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/ilovehdtv/Other/TivoHD/seasonpassmanager.jpg (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm314/ilovehdtv/Other/TivoHD/large/seasonpassmanager.png)
Season Pass Manager determines what two series or searches are recorded first when three or more conflict.

; if you want a different one to be skipped, adjust the priority order in Season Pass Manager. Adjusting the priority order will automatically update the record schedule (To Do List) without any further steps.

[ThAbtO]

Overlap happens only when it encounters a time where both tuners are recording and then based on ranking in season pass manager to overlap.

[w2jo]

OK.. I have the picture.. In case of conflict, and you choose "record anyway", the first one in the priority list gets recorded and the second gets dropped.

In the message that says something like: "Your requested new recording conflicts with two programs already being recorded". Then the error message shows you the two conflicting programs. Is it true that the FIRST program name shown is HIGHEST in the priority list and that the SECOND name showing is the LOWER priority in the priority list? And thus that the SECOND named program is the one that will be dropped in favor of your new recording request?

Or does a person have to look into the proirity list every time to find out which program will be omitted if you choose to record your new program?

Thanks.

[bkdtv]

In the message that says something like: "Your requested new recording conflicts with two programs already being recorded". Then the error message shows you the two conflicting programs.The conflict message lists both programs that conflict, but it always asks you if you want to cancel a specific program. That specific program is always the lowest priority season pass.

It would be much nicer if the TiVo would check for other showings of all three programs, and if other showings exist, ask you which of those programs you'd like to record at a later time. Unfortunately, the TiVo software is not yet "intelligent" enough to do that.

I mentioned this above, but when you proceed with a new recording and cancel the scheduled showing of the lowest priority series, the TiVo will still record that program episode if it is shown again in the next 28 days. TiVo just doesn't mention this on the conflict management screen. The TiVo will only ignore future showings of a specific episode when you go to the To Do List or a Season Pass, click on an episode, and select "cancel only this episode."

If you always place non-repeating network series on ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC at a higher priority than repeating cable series on TNT/USA/FX/AMC/SyFy, then the conflict dialog will always give you the option to cancel the cable program (and though it won't say, to record a later showing) when it is among those that conflicts with new recording. If you forget to prioritize a series, then you can do so at a later time and it will update the To Do List; Season Pass Manager always determines the record order on the To Do List.

[w2jo]

Thanks for that Clarification.

I notice that my Series 3 HD unit does NOT indicate WHICH of the two programs it will not record if you choose to record your conflicting program. All it does is say that your NEWLY requested program conflicts with two other programs which ARE in fact listed. I see nothing in the error message that tells me explicitly (or implicitly unless it is the second of the two old programs being recorded) WHICH of the two will be replaced with the NEWLY requested program.

As was stated in an earlier post, I could look in the Priority List and determine which of the two "old" programs was lower in the list and that would be the one dropped. But that is a bit of a chore. What would be nice would be a "red star" or some such telling you which one it was intending to NOT record and give you a mechanism to move the "red star" to the other program if you wished to delete the other program instead.

Yes.. I have requested many times over the years that in case of a conflict that TIVO automagically check to see if either of the conflicting programs comes on at a later time/date, but so far, that feature has not made it to the front of the feature queue! It would be nice!

However, the Tivo S3 works so well, it is hard to get upset about a relatively minor feature such as this one.

[bkdtv]

Thanks for that Clarification.

I notice that my Series 3 HD unit does NOT indicate WHICH of the two programs it will not record if you choose to record your conflicting program. All it does is say that your NEWLY requested program conflicts with two other programs which ARE in fact listed. I see nothing in the error message that tells me explicitly (or implicitly unless it is the second of the two old programs being recorded) WHICH of the two will be replaced with the NEWLY requested program.Got a digital camera to post a screenshot? Because that's not what I see.

My screen says something to the effect of "this DVR will not record <lower priority program>. It conflicts with <higher priority program>.

[w2jo]

OK.. The image of the TiVo S3 screen on my system when a recording conflict is detected is attached. Notice in this Case that Masterpiece is listed FIRST and Hannity is listed SECOND. If I go ahead and say "record anyway" then Hannity is discarded and my NEW program replaces the Hannity recording.

Can I then assume that the SECOND one listed is the one that is ALWAYS discarded? Going to the recording priority list for the info on "which is highest priority?" is a bit tedious for finding out.

Anyway.. As you can see, there is no indication of WHICH one is going to be discarded.

[bkdtv]

OK.. The image of the TiVo S3 screen on my system when a recording conflict is detected is attached. Notice in this Case that Masterpiece is listed FIRST and Hannity is listed SECOND. If I go ahead and say "record anyway" then Hannity is discarded and my NEW program replaces the Hannity recording.I see your confusion now. TiVo doesn't use the word "because," but it is implied.

Will NOT record
Masterpiece My... 9:00-10:30pm
[because it] overlaps with Hannity 9:00-10:00pm

Hopefully that makes it easier for you to understand.

The "Will NOT record" program is always the lowest priority program. The "overlaps with" message always identifies the higher-priority program that will record at the same time. If you observed otherwise, you were mistaken. TiVo has worked this way for a decade. Feel free to test it with any other recordings.

[w2jo]

As I mentioned, the program that DID NOT RECORD when I told the Tivo to "go ahead" was the HANNITY program which was the second program in the list of two.. After pressing the "go ahead", the programs in the "to do" list were the Masterpiece program and the new program (Titanic).

Also.. In this case, the HANNITY program is in the WISHLIST and is in fact as you suggest, it IS below the Masterpiece program in the Season Pass priority list.

At the moment, I am thinking that it MAY be that the SECOND program mentioned in the conflict list is the lower priority and is the one that is deleted, but I am not sure of that.

This means that I think (maybe) the error message should read:

Will record
Masterpiece My... 9:00-10:30pm
[and will delete] Hannity 9:00-10:00pm

I think this is simply an oversight and at present I think it would be nice if a Tivo programming expert helped us with a description of the real logic at work here. There may be some obscure logical element at work that we do not know about.

[bkdtv]

What I posted above was not an opinion or a guess, but an established fact.

I saw what you posted, but you're mistaken, or you made changes to your Season Pass Manager since that screenshot was taken. The message always reflects your current priorities in Season Pass Manager, but any changes to those priorities will update your To Do List.

It wouldn't work one way for yourself and a different way for everyone else. Try scheduling some other programs when you already have two scheduled to see for yourself.

[w2jo]

OK.. I just tried it again on my S3. It works just like I told you. The last program of the two was deleted.

Do you have an S3? Perhaps it works differently in your unit since the display you described is quite different from the display shown on my S3.

In any case BKDTV.. Thanks.. I think you and I have beat this one to death.

But I do not have an answer to my question that is confirmed by how my S3 works.. Perhaps someone else has some thoughts.

[IJustLikeTivo]

OK.. I just tried it again on my S3. It works just like I told you. The last program of the two was deleted.

Do you have an S3? Perhaps it works differently in your unit since the display you described is quite different from the display shown on my S3.

In any case BKDTV.. Thanks.. I think you and I have beat this one to death.

But I do not have an answer to my question that is confirmed by how my S3 works.. Perhaps someone else has some thoughts.

Yes, I have a thought. You're wrong. If you say go ahead hannity would be recorded and masterpiece would not. It has always worked that way. Always.

[mattack]

The conflict message lists both programs that conflict, but it always asks you if you want to cancel a specific program. That specific program is always the lowest priority season pass.


Though another bit of info is that "user initiated recordings" (i.e. one-checkmark instead of two, meaning SP) take even higher priority, so if there's a SP and a "user initiated recording" conflicting, it will ask to cancel the SP recording.

[w2jo]

Thanks Mattick.. Perhaps you have the answer. The "Hannity" recording is coming from a "Wish List" and the Masterpiece is a regular type Season Pass recording. The Hannity is priority 94 and Masterpiece is much higher in the list. So, from that I judge that the system is dropping the lower priority program as others have suggested should happen. And.. Since the Hannity program is second in the list, I am thinking that the conflict program list is in order of priority in the season pass list.

Thanks also to "I just like Tivo". Perhaps your answer should have read: Yes, I have a thought. You're wrong. If you say go ahead hannity would be recorded and masterpiece would not. It has always worked that way. Always. ...adding.. That is unless you are doing something different from what I am thinking you are doing:.

I had a College Professor whose favorite saying was: "One carefully executed experiment is worth 10,000 expert opinions"

In this case, the experiment may be producing some unfamiliar results, but the RESULTS are as written above. However, I may have just picked an example that is contrary to normal experience that causes a non-standard response from the tivo. I will go now and try the experiment with two programs being recorded by the regular season pass mechanism.

[mattack]

Thanks Mattick.. Perhaps you have the answer. The "Hannity" recording is coming from a "Wish List" and the Masterpiece is a regular type Season Pass recording. The Hannity is priority 94 and Masterpiece is much higher in the list. So, from that I judge that the system is dropping the lower priority program as others have suggested should happen. And.. Since the Hannity program is second in the list, I am thinking that the conflict program list is in order of priority in the season pass list.

I honestly don't know. Just re-skimming the thread and what's quoted here, Masterpiece Mystery is much higher (i.e. LOWER number) than Hannity.. but your manual recording is saying that Masterpiece Mystery won't record.

Wait, is the new show you're trying to record at 10PM? (No that doesn't really make sense I don't think.)

But honestly, I can't think of why it wouldn't behave the way others are saying.

[realityboy]

That screenshot is clearly telling you that Masterpiece is not recording because it overlaps with Hannity. Of course you could change something to make it the other way, but assuming you just hit ok and don't change anything else, Hannity will record and Masterpiece will not.

[w2jo]

1) OK.. I ran the test again using two "not special" recordings. That is: Both recordings were selected for recording by the SEASON PASS mechanism. Neither was a WISHLIST recording. In this case the FIRST of the two programs in the conflicting list is erased just as you said. That is: The FIRST program was erased and the SECOND program in the list remained along with my newly selected program Yes.. I agree...!! All good..

2) Then, I tried it again with the Hannity (Hannity is a WISH LIST entry) on the first conflicting program line and Modern Marvels on line #2 and I manually recorded FRAZIER at the same time. In this case, where the HANNITY program was listed FIRST in the list of two programs with the conflict, and the Modern Marvels program was listed SECOND, the HANNITY program (first in the list) was deleted and the "to do" list ended up with Hannity and Frazier being left to record with Modern Marvels erased. That is: In this case, the SECOND program in the conflict list was ERASED, unlike the test example #1 above.

So.. my conclusion is: IT DEPENDS on HOW a program to record got on the ToDo list as to if the Tivo will delete the FIRST or the SECOND program in the conflict list.

To my brethren who are disbelievers! Try it yourself. A carefully executed experiment is worth 10,000 expert opinions.

I repeat. My experiment discloses that it is not, in the general case, possible to predict by looking at the CONFLICT error message WHICH of the two programs with which your new program has a time conflict, will be deleted to make room for the new program.

Again... Try the TWO CASES listed above yourself!

Thanks for all that commented. It has been educational for me and perhaps (if you will run the experiment and not just assume you already know the answer) to some of you guys as well.

My best regards.
Joe

[realityboy]

Your conclusion is still wrong. The screenshot you posted is not a 'list' with 2 items. It is a statement "Will NOT record: show a...overlaps with show b..."

It is telling you which item will be recorded. It doesn't matter how you have things prioritized or how you set up recordings. All of that does determine which will be recorded, but at the point that you are getting this message, all that is happening is Tivo telling you which show will be recorded. In the above example "show a" will not be recorded; it overlaps with "show b".

Edit: I just tried your experiment exactly as you posted it, and things still worked as expected for me. To be honest, I already knew they would as this wasn't hypothetical 'expert' knowledge, but rather learned from doing this exact same experiment for the last several year whenever I recorded something.

[w2jo]

Hi RealityBoy.
I am afraid you did not carefully read the results of my two experiments. In the FIRST experiment, the program erased was the FIRST of the two programs listed as being in "confilct" with my manually input third recording. In the SECOND experiment, it was the SECOND of the two programs listed which was erased. Thus, you cannot say FOR SURE by looking at the conflict screen WHICH program of the two will be erased when you click "go ahead and record my new program".

Which one is erased depends on how the two "conflicting" programs got there in the first place.. ie.. In case #1, Both recordings were Normal "season pass" recordings or in case #2, one "wishlist" program and one normal season pass program.

Perhaps I need to say one more time: THIS IS NOT GUESSWORK, It is not a CONCLUSION. It is in fact the RESULTS of TWO SEPARATE carefully run EXPERIMENTS. If you guys have not tried these experiments for yourself, then. I am sorry to say, you are extrapolating to erroneous conclusions with with incomplete data!

[realityboy]

I guess you didn't read my answer. I completed the same "experiment" using 1 wishlist and 1 season pass.

[realityboy]

the HANNITY program (first in the list) was deleted and the "to do" list ended up with Hannity and Frazier being left to record with Modern Marvels erased.

So Hannity was deleted?

[Amnesia]

I still don't understand why TiVo hasn't enhanced their conflict resolution logic to better differentiate between shows that will repeat and those which will not (in the next 11 days or so).

[mattack]

I still don't understand why TiVo hasn't enhanced their conflict resolution logic to better differentiate between shows that will repeat and those which will not (in the next 11 days or so).

Because it's the traveling salesman problem? (If the new repeat conflicts with another show, do you want it to then check for THAT show's repeats, and so on and so on and so on?)

Personally, I think it could do a better job in most cases, than it does now too.. but it sure is hard to put that in a reasonably easy-to-use way.