What is really wrong with my Tivo???

[csell]

I posted a few weeks ago about a major problem my Tivo was having (the "Welcome. Please wait..." reboot cycle). The overall verdict was a bad hard drive... Anyway, here is a quick recap of what has happened since and I want to hear if anyone has any good guesses on what is really wrong with my Tivo.

Several time (3 now), the power has briefly went out at my house, and when the Tivo reboots, it gets stuck in that endless reboot that I just mentioned. After this occurs, I have to remove the harddrive and then use InstantCake to reinstall Tivo on that SAME harddrive. I then reinstall it and it works perfectly fine again (but everything is reset). As I said, this has happened 3 times now. The very first time, I had Tivo plugged directly into the wall outlet (no powersurge protector). After that, I added a decent power surge protector (not UPS). This didn't seem to make a difference...

What could the problem be? Based on the fact that if I just reformat the harddrive then it starts working again tells me that the harddrive is probably not the problem (by the way, this occurred on both the original harddrive as well as a brand new one I purchased). What else can it be?

I really did not want to spend the money, but I'll probably buy a UPS, but will that really solve the problem?

[jjberger2134]

A UPS will certainly help if your power outages last only a few minutes. That way the TiVo won't power down.

However, it sounds like you might have a bigger problem with the HD or possibly the power supply. Have you run a diagnostic on it using the tools from the manufacturer? Boot problems, especially the one you are describing tend to indicate a Hard Drive problem. If you keep reformatting the same "bad" drive, the problem will continue.

Others on this forum will know better, but there may be a way to test the power supply as well.

Finally, do a search for "KickStart" codes, read about them and maybe a kickstart will help you.

[newskilz]

I can't help much other than if you buy the UPS the power won't blink which means the TiVo won't have to go through a power cycle which means it won't be trying to boot. So in theory the UPS would be a working band aid. Other than that, I can't specifically help you out, unless the power is going out in such a way that the heads on either hard drive are getting stuck or something???

[csell]

A UPS will certainly help if your power outages last only a few minutes. That way the TiVo won't power down.

However, it sounds like you might have a bigger problem with the HD or possibly the power supply. Have you run a diagnostic on it using the tools from the manufacturer? Boot problems, especially the one you are describing tend to indicate a Hard Drive problem. If you keep reformatting the same "bad" drive, the problem will continue.

Others on this forum will know better, but there may be a way to test the power supply as well.

Finally, do a search for "KickStart" codes, read about them and maybe a kickstart will help you.

I've never been able to get those "KickStart" codes to work. I've read all about them and tried them endless times, but after it gets in that reboot loop, it won't respond to anything (until I reformat it).

The odd thing about it being a harddrive problem is that it has happened with TWO different harddrives and once I reformat it, its fine..... I downloaded and created a boot disk from the manufacturer but couldn't figure it out! I believe I am doing it wrong. I booted off the CD, which worked as it displayed the first line of text but never went past that... What I did was simply swap my PC harddrive with the Tivo harddrive. Is that the wrong way to do it? Do I need to leave the PC harddrive in their (the one with the windows OS)?

I actually did a power supply test once it got caught in that loop but no luck. Basically I removed the power supply connection to the Tivo HD and instead connected the Tivo HD power cable to that on my PC. So essentially when I tried to boot up the Tivo, the power for the harddrive was actually coming from a PC rather than the Tivo. My hunch was that it would boot up, but it still did not. This might not have been the smartest thing to do, but I did anyway and had no luck.....

[lessd]

I've never been able to get those "KickStart" codes to work. I've read all about them and tried them endless times, but after it gets in that reboot loop, it won't respond to anything (until I reformat it).

The odd thing about it being a harddrive problem is that it has happened with TWO different harddrives and once I reformat it, its fine..... I downloaded and created a boot disk from the manufacturer but couldn't figure it out! I believe I am doing it wrong. I booted off the CD, which worked as it displayed the first line of text but never went past that... What I did was simply swap my PC harddrive with the Tivo harddrive. Is that the wrong way to do it? Do I need to leave the PC harddrive in their (the one with the windows OS)?

I actually did a power supply test once it got caught in that loop but no luck. Basically I removed the power supply connection to the Tivo HD and instead connected the Tivo HD power cable to that on my PC. So essentially when I tried to boot up the Tivo, the power for the harddrive was actually coming from a PC rather than the Tivo. My hunch was that it would boot up, but it still did not. This might not have been the smartest thing to do, but I did anyway and had no luck.....

You may be the 1 in 100,000 that has a flaky motherboard (or the PS could make something on the motherboard flaky). Your next step would be to try another power supply, but that not so easy unless you have two of the same model TiVo or a really good friend with the same model TiVo. From your description its not the hard drive or the power going to the hard drive.

[nrc]

A small UPS is a very worthwhile investment for a TiVo regardless of any other problems you're having.

Formatting the drive doesn't necessarily rule out the drive as the problem. As drives encounter bad blocks they mark them as bad and don't use them again. All a simple format does is work around the problem. If your disk is continuing to get worse you will lose more blocks. These bad blocks often aren't noticed until TiVo needs them to boot.

It's not impossible that you have something else going on like a failing disk controller, or weak power supply, but those problems are much, much less common than failed hard drives. The easiest way to know for sure is to run diagnostics on your drive through either the jumpstart method or disk utilities on a PC. Sounds like you may need some additional help with that process.

[csell]

While I really don't think its the harddrive, I'm more than willing to run a test on it. As I said earlier, I've never been able to get the Kickstart codes to work. But the only time I've ever tried it was when it was in that endless loop. I suppose I could test it now while Tivo is working fine. Are there any codes that not only tests the drive, but also repairs (as in bad sectors)? Any recommendation on what code I should try???

[wmcbrine]

If the power fails while the system is on, it can corrupt the data on the disk, as with any computer.* This doesn't mean that the hard drive is bad per se -- just the data. That would fit your symptoms. A UPS would solve that problem, yes (as long as the outage wasn't too long).

* Since it has no way to shut down properly, there's no way to entirely avoid this with a TiVo. And certainly TiVo has tried to mitigate it. But there's still a risk.

[csell]

If the power fails while the system is on, it can corrupt the data on the disk, as with any computer.* This doesn't mean that the hard drive is bad per se -- just the data. That would fit your symptoms. A UPS would solve that problem, yes (as long as the outage wasn't too long).

* Since it has no way to shut down properly, there's no way to entirely avoid this with a TiVo. And certainly TiVo has tried to mitigate it. But there's still a risk.


Let me ask you this (by the way, I agree with everything you said) -

With no UPS, when the power goes off, the Tivo immediately goes out... With a UPS, when the power goes off, the Tivo will stay on for 'x' amount of more minutes before finally shutting off when the UPS battery dies. And as you pointed out, there is no proper way of shutting it down, so would you expect better results when it shuts off from the UPS vs immediately shutting down when the power goes out???

By the way, I tested unplugging and replugging the Tivo a few times, and so far its booted up perfectly. So the only time it has failed is when the power went out... About 3 weeks ago the power went out for 4 hours but when it went out last night, it was only for about 5 seconds. Obviously a UPS would have prevented it from turning off in that instance....

Anyone have any good recommendations for a UPS that is fairly priced, as in less than $50....

[wmcbrine]

I'd expect it to not go off, since most of my outages are only momentary. But, the power should also be cleaner, so who knows, it might help even in a long outage.

[lafos]

Problems sometimes occur when power is restored after an outage. Power can flicker once or more. A computer, or TiVo in that situation can have boot issues. The UPS's that we have will not turn the battery-protected side automatically; it has to be rest manually. If we're home when the power goes out for more than a few minutes, we unplug the TiVos and the rest of the electronic jungle we call home, so that we can mitigate issues on restart.

[csell]

Update (and not good) - I decided to do more testing by manually resetting the Tivo by unplugging and replugging and it happened again. Its back to being caught in the reboot loop.... I have not reformatted the drive again, but I am assuming it will work again. I just don't know if I want to go through all of that again, but I would really love to know what is wrong with the Tivo, even though it is clear that its got major problems and probably needs replaced.

[dlfl]

..........Anyone have any good recommendations for a UPS that is fairly priced, as in less than $50....
APC BE350G, $42 to $50. Should be available at Office Depot. I bought an older version of this 3 yrs ago for my TiVo and it's fine. Just replaced the battery in it as preventative maintenance. Cost about $20.

[csell]

If kickstarts don't work, is that a sign of anything??? I have read a lot about how to do it and I know I'm doing it correct:

1) Startup Tivo and hold down PAUSE
2) In a few seconds, the green light flashes and then the yellow and red lights turn on. At that point, I let go of the PAUSE button and type in '54' (I've tried other codes as well.

Within a few seconds, it just reboots and does the same old thing. It never goes to a special screen or anything... With this information, does it say anything about what the problem can be (i.e. - motherboard, etc)

[alyssa]

Update (and not good) - I decided to do more testing by manually resetting the Tivo by unplugging and replugging and it happened again. Its back to being caught in the reboot loop.... I have not reformatted the drive again, but I am assuming it will work again. I just don't know if I want to go through all of that again, but I would really love to know what is wrong with the Tivo, even though it is clear that its got major problems and probably needs replaced.

Good test, my original thought was that you might be getting low voltage problems & that might have caused the problem.

I had to replace my PS in my computer. The PS was causing my computer to crash. At the time I thought it was odd but I was assured on Tom's forum that PS's can intermittently/gradually fail.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/
When you tested the tivo using your computers PS, you attempted to boot the HD that was already stuck in a loop? not a know working HD? My thought is that the PS might be having a intermittent problem which causes the HD to flake out which you then solve via instacake. But the next time the PS flakes out, it causes the HD problem again.

However, I am *not* sure a intermittent PS could cause a "stuck at powering up..." HD problem.
Just to clarify, you have tried two HD's & had the problem with both of them?

[steve614]

Your next step would be to try another power supply, but that not so easy unless you have two of the same model TiVo or a really good friend with the same model TiVo.

If the OP suspects the power supply, replacements are available.

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-power-supply.php

[csell]

Good test, my original thought was that you might be getting low voltage problems & that might have caused the problem.

I had to replace my PS in my computer. The PS was causing my computer to crash. At the time I thought it was odd but I was assured on Tom's forum that PS's can intermittently/gradually fail.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/
When you tested the tivo using your computers PS, you attempted to boot the HD that was already stuck in a loop? not a know working HD? My thought is that the PS might be having a intermittent problem which causes the HD to flake out which you then solve via instacake. But the next time the PS flakes out, it causes the HD problem again.

However, I am *not* sure a intermittent PS could cause a "stuck at powering up..." HD problem.
Just to clarify, you have tried two HD's & had the problem with both of them?

The HD that I was testing through the connection on my PC's power supply was already stick in a loop. However, its worth pointing out that it is a brand new hard drive I bought because the original one got caught in that rebooting loop (so yes, there are now 2 drives that keep getting stuck in that loop). Of course there technically is a chance that the brand new WD harddrive is bad, but I would say unlikely and the odds of having both drives with the same problem is probably unlikely. UNLESS something on the Tivo (like the PS?) is making the drive go bad. I'm just throwing that out there!

Final comment - I am guessing (based on past experience) that if I tried and reformat this drive, then it would work again. But I don't know if I'm going to bother doing that because its a long process and its clear that it will only work temporarily...

[csell]

If the OP suspects the power supply, replacements are available.

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-power-supply.php

It's $100 and I can get a complete refurb unit from Tivo for $150 that would come with a warranty. $100 is a big gamble when we aren't even sure if that is the problem!!!

[steve614]

Right. I was just pointing out that if the power supply is the problem, they are readily available.

My suggestion for you would be to purchase a UPS and try one more time with reformatting the HD.
That way, we can rule out the power outages as the problem.

[csell]

Right. I was just pointing out that if the power supply is the problem, they are readily available.

My suggestion for you would be to purchase a UPS and try one more time with reformatting the HD.
That way, we can rule out the power outages as the problem.

You might have missed one of my last comments burried within this thread saying that tonight I tested the 'power outage' theory by manually unplugging and replugging the Tivo and this time, it failed and is back in that reboot loop. This is the first time this has happened, but then again, I have only tested it this way a few times... So I'm now not as convinced that it was related to the power outages, but rather simply the rebooting (but of course having a UPS is still a good idea). The part that just doesn't make sense is that if I reformat it, it will probably work again...

[lessd]

You might have missed one of my last comments burried within this thread saying that tonight I tested the 'power outage' theory by manually unplugging and replugging the Tivo and this time, it failed and is back in that reboot loop. This is the first time this has happened, but then again, I have only tested it this way a few times... So I'm now not as convinced that it was related to the power outages, but rather simply the rebooting (but of course having a UPS is still a good idea). The part that just doesn't make sense is that if I reformat it, it will probably work again...

Re-read my post #5..it could be the motherboard.

[alyssa]

so yes, there are now 2 drives that keep getting stuck in that loop). ...... UNLESS something on the Tivo (like the PS?) is making the drive go bad.


This is indeed what I am suggesting. Both of the HD's might be good & the PS is causing them to go wonky.
Personaly, I'd get a UPS, reformat the hd AND search for a used PS. Keeping in mind it might be the MB as lessd points out.
Hey, maybe Tivo's got a refurbed PS they'd be willing to sell you. I'd also be tempted by "tivo for parts" sales. Will a S2 PS work in a Tivo HD? I assume not but it's worth finding out.

I am assuming you've got a Tivo HD that's month to month, not lifetime? right?

[csell]

This is indeed what I am suggesting. Both of the HD's might be good & the PS is causing them to go wonky.
Personaly, I'd get a UPS, reformat the hd AND search for a used PS. Keeping in mind it might be the MB as lessd points out.
Hey, maybe Tivo's got a refurbed PS they'd be willing to sell you. I'd also be tempted by "tivo for parts" sales. Will a S2 PS work in a Tivo HD? I assume not but it's worth finding out.

I am assuming you've got a Tivo HD that's month to month, not lifetime? right?

Tivo 2 parts don't work with Tivo HD :( I can get a reburbed from Tivo for $149. I'll probably just go ahead and do that... So you recommend reformatting my drive? I'm tempted to not do that because at this current moment, the drive is not working on and I'd like to see what happens when I put it in the new Tivo. If it works, then that might be a pretty good sign that it is not the drive cause a small part of me is still worried the drive has problems.

[alyssa]

a reformat because i assume you'd like to watch your tivo, a ups because it does condition the house power & you might be getting little ups & downs that you don't notice.
I htink we all agree, a ups is a must. I use an old one from my computer.

[jrtroo]

you may just have "dirty power" in the house or from the utility. A UPS will help with that without you even knowing it is working. It is a much better "investment" than any of those best buy insurance scams/offers.

[csell]

a reformat because i assume you'd like to watch your tivo

alyssa, I didn't get that above statement. What do you mean? If the harddrive isn't the problem, then in theory I should be able to put it in the new refurbed Tivo and it would work and I would still have all of my shows and settings, correct?

[Shawn95GT]

The shows won't be playable on the new Tivo as far as I've seen. If you can get it up and running you and transfer the content that isn't protected via Tivo desktp.

My newest Tivo is my Tivo HD and using the Tivo approved expander it was the first of my high Def tivos to 'break'. I swapped in a 1TB drive and didn't look back.

Just recently my first S3 (oldest) which had a 750 ESATA drive attached rolled over dead. The ESATA drive died and shortly after even without the ESATA drive attached I was stuck in re-boot loops.

I just upgraded both of my S3s with 1TB drives as well and no more ESATA. All of my Tivos are on UPSes and they are all happy now.

Have you tried running some disk check utilities on the drive such as Spinrite before re-baking it? You might have a bad sector causing your misfortune. It's weird how re-baking fixes it for a while.

[lessd]

alyssa, I didn't get that above statement. What do you mean? If the harddrive isn't the problem, then in theory I should be able to put it in the new refurbed Tivo and it would work and I would still have all of my shows and settings, correct?

NO a new TiVo refurb or otherwise will not have anything on it, you will have to start over again.

[steve614]

If the harddrive isn't the problem, then in theory I should be able to put it in the new refurbed Tivo and it would work and I would still have all of my shows and settings, correct?

IIRC, you can take a hard drive from one Tivo and put it in another one of the same model, but you have to do a clear & delete everything in order for it to work.

[alyssa]

alyssa, I didn't get that above statement. What do you mean? If the harddrive isn't the problem, then in theory I should be able to put it in the new refurbed Tivo and it would work and I would still have all of my shows and settings, correct?
we all seem to be saying the problem is most likely with your power. The first thing to do is to make sure the power is clean & steady. Once that is accomplished with a ups, instacake the drive so you can check to see if it's the problem and allow you to use the TiVo. If that solves the problem great if not look for a used PS.

[Shawn95GT]

Weaknees has 'em - nearly $100 though :(

http://www.weaknees.com/images/tivo-hd-power-supply.png

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-power-supply.php