Lost: Season Finale, May 13 1977

[Philosofy]

The first three minutes: Out of the park! Jacob is real, and was there to see the Black Rock land. But who was on the Island with him?

[vertigo235]

Watching live...

So Jacob is Forrest Gump?

[vertigo235]

I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up.

It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!

[vertigo235]

Killer Chains!!!!! Seriously?

[Win Joy Jr]

I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up.

It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!

It's LOST!

[Win Joy Jr]

Destiny Found...

[Turtleboy]

Isn't it called "The Incident?"

And Meh. We didn't learn that much at all.

[Philosofy]

We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.

[vertigo235]

OK so obviously the hydrogen bomb stops the super magnatism thing, and that's exactly what happened when desmond turned the key too. I guess that is their failsafe.

So, maybe Juliette is still alive like Desmond was after he used the failsafe.

[vertigo235]

We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.

So Locke is really dead, and faux Locke is the guy at the begining of the episode who we never found out who he was.

Also they sure made Jacob out to be a great guy in this.

[Frash]

So is this a whole "God vs Satan" thing?

[Turtleboy]

We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.

What really did happen to Locke? That he died and stayed dead?

Who was fake Locke?

What did Richard say in Latin to Ilana?

I guess that group isn't Dharma, but who are they?

[Gunnyman]

God VS Satan or Romulus and Remus?

[Philosofy]

Translated he said "I don't know. But if I speak with authority and gravitas in a language you don't understand, you might believe me."

[Donbadabon]

Nice black thong Kate was wearing.
It was peeking out when she was pulling Sawyer out of the pit.
Ok, now to watch the ending. :)

[vertigo235]

I guess that group isn't Dharma, but who are they?

They're the good guys!!! ;)

[astrohip]

Dead *is* dead.

[Gunnyman]

Did you ever stop to think that what Jack is doing IS the incident?
good stuff.

[flyers088]

Dead *is* dead.

Unless you are LOST!

[vertigo235]

"I lied"

"It's what I do"

[Turtleboy]

So is Dead Locke the Smoke Monster? Possibly.

Seems to me that it was someone or something banished from the island under the rules of "the game" and found a "loophole" in the rules to get back as dead Locke.

[vertigo235]

Did you ever stop to think that what Jack is doing IS the incident?
good stuff.

What happened, happened. All Jack did was show Radzinsky how to create the failsafe for the swan.

[Gunnyman]

I think the loop hole was the ability to kill Jacob.

[Gunnyman]

What happened, happened. All Jack did was show Radzinsky how to create the failsafe for the swan.

Yeah I know I just thought it was a great line for Miles.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Dead Locke must be the guy who was with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived.

I smell some very old flashbacks coming on!

Maybe some VERY old flashbacks...
Yeah I know I just thought it was a great line for Miles.
It's certainly what I had been thinking ever since Farraday came up with the plan.

Dead is dead. What happened, happened.

[stitch626]

What did Richard say in Latin to Ilana?


I think he said "ille qui nos omnes servabit" and while my latin is rusty from high school basically he said "he who will save us all"

[Cindy1230]

So the black shirt guy from the beginning... also took the form of christian? But christian's body wasn't found. Or christian was Jacob's rep and Locke is black shirt guy's rep.

[vertigo235]

I think the loop hole was the ability to kill Jacob.

Yup, at least, that's what he said at the begining of the episode.

Poor Richard was totally duped.

[Turtleboy]

Dead Locke must be the guy who was with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived.

I smell some very old flashbacks coming on!

Maybe some VERY old flashbacks...
.

Maybe older than you imply.

If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?

[Mike Wells]

Wow, I'm still trying to get my mind around everything in this ep.

I think Miles may have the most telling line - something like "what if this bomb you guys want to set off CAUSE the problem and that's why you're here? What if doing nothing is the best idea?" We don't know if the first time around in 1977 the bomb didn't go off and they still built the Swan station, etc. I can see the producers going that route - surprise, the bomb didn't alter anything...

I sure hope Juliet isn't gone, but it already seems like a cop-out that she survived the fall down that shaft.

Less likely would be them having Juliet survive, but they might swing it that way too. Maybe the magnetic pocket contained or affected the blast?

Jacob story line - not sure what to think here. As with the series - who is the good guy? It sure looks like Jacob is the good guy. What is he trying to prove, from the beginning? If Jacob is the island's protector, what happens now?

Anyone care to translate the Latin?

I'm pretty sure, whatever happens, that they won't end up landing at LAX. That makes for a very boring season 6. :)

Also glad to see Rose and Bernard - I had figured they had checked out and were doing their own thing. That's my guess for how this all plays out in the end - some of our original cast members living out their lives on the island in relative peace.

Ah, more thinking to be done.

[vertigo235]

It sure is a shame that the "good guys" group didn't show Ben what was in that box on the beach that day, that sure could have changed the outcome of this episode.

[Philosofy]

How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Maybe older than you imply.

If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?
That was my implication. Ancient times. The foundation of the island.

[vertigo235]

The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.

[Cindy1230]

Didn't Ben and Widmore say they couldn't kill each other... it's just a cycle of two guys who can't kill each other... until well...the loophole.

[Queue]

Interesting that as Ben confronted Jacob there was a very strong, "free will" vs. "temptation" thing going on.

[Mike Wells]

How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?

They had been stealing food - expiration dates? Some other contact with the dharma folks possibly.

[Turtleboy]

The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.

Do you believe that Jacob didn't know that was going to happen?

Maybe it's Jacob and not Locke that needs to die so that he can be reborn and save humanit. . . er. . . the Island.

[crowfan]

I liked how, in the opening scene, Jacob and that other guy were wearing white and black shirts respectively.

[Mike Wells]

The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.

I thought this might be a Christ allegory, maybe. Of course, I thought that's where they were going with Locke, too.

If Jacob can heal people, appear and disappear, etc. surely he isn't going to let a stab wound get him down. Oh, and the fire too. Ah well.

[Queue]

Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.

[Turtleboy]

And what, if any, is Widmore's role in all of this?

[Queue]

I liked how, in the opening scene, Jacob and that other guy were wearing white and black shirts respectively.

Yeah, kinda goes back to the first season with the backgammon pieces.

I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)

[Queue]

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer

We got a flashback on Juliette, but no followup or appearance by Jacob.

[Turtleboy]

Yeah, kinda goes back to the first season with the backgammon pieces.

I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)

You mean he could eat. That doesn't mean he has to eat.

[Queue]

I wonder if the plot line of women unable to bear children on the island will be revisited in the last season.

[crazywater]

Maybe Juliet is the cause of women unable to bear children due to the bomb she detonated. And then 24 years later she is brought to the island to solve the mystery that she caused...

[SocratesJohnson]

"What about you?"
My favorite line of the night. :up:
Anyway, what I took away from all of this is that the black shirt guy has been pulling the strings all along (dating back to the Black Rock evidently) to "persuade" someone to kill Jacob since he can't for whatever reason.

[scandia101]

Lost: Season Finale, May 13 1977

WTF? That's not the title of the episode, the air date, or the day it takes place.

[jkeegan]

Amazing two hours of television.

Jacob didn't seem scared.. he told Ben he had a choice (almost like Ben's very last chance).

Fake Locke was also Fake Ben's Daughter Alex (as was said last thread I think - that's why they weren't next to each other).

Two sides.. one light, one dark. Played beautifully with the opening scene.

2010 seems so damned far away. :(

Part of me expects to see some pre-2007 scene with Jacob and anti-Jacob (dark-shirt guy) where dark-shirt turns into the smoke monster and Jacob turns into a previously-unseen-except-by-Locke white smoke (or something very beautiful)..

..but, they showed us a scene where Jacob was actually catching/killing/eating a fish, which kind of implies he's a living person that can digest food etc.

Did Jacob want to kill Nadia, or did he want to save Sayid? Why not save both?

Is Jacob really dead?

Was Jacob already aware of darkshirt/fakeLocke's plan? He was off-island, far away from Ben's knife, when he told Ilana to go to the island..

Did Ilana's group take Locke's body from the coffin and put it in an empty crate they brought with them (or found on the plane)? Did they know there'd be an imposter? Why tell Caesar about Locke being found in the water?

In The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, when we first see fake John, he's wearing a black cloak.

I wonder if Ilana was originally supposed to be Anna Lucia, before Anna's actress left the show?

It feels like there's an interesting parallel between Ben and Widmore both acknowledging that they can't kill each other (when they were in Widmore's place in London), and blackshirt and Jacob's discussion about wanting to kill him and him saying that someday he'd find a loophole.

[hefe]

WTF? That's not the title of the episode, the air date, or the day it takes place.

I vote not clever.

[Tsiehta]

I think there is a wager of some type between Jacob and faux Locke. Kind of like they are immortals. Faux Locke said in effect "It's always the same. They come, they conquer, they fight, they destroy." A statement about the fate of man. Jacob represents the "good" in man, constantly bringing people to the island to prove faux Locke wrong.

Jacob and faux Locke are incapable of killing each other directly, they are playing a game with each other.

[Tsiehta]

duplicate post

[uncdrew]

That was a fun time. I was actually happy to see the bomb go off. Guess if they had a "which Lostie are you?" game I'd be Jack.



How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?

Yeah, I didn't really like their appearance, and personally didn't need it. I know lots of people wanted an answer about them, so that's cool they got their answer. But it didn't add anything to the episode for me. And there were some holes there.

Didn't Ben and Widmore say they couldn't kill each other... it's just a cycle of two guys who can't kill each other... until well...the loophole.

If the loophole is as simple as "have someone else kill him" I'm a little puzzled why it took decades/centuries to finally pull it off. I expect a little more to the loophole.

[jlb]

...........Part of me expects to see some pre-2007 scene with Jacob and anti-Jacob (dark-shirt guy) where dark-shirt turns into the smoke monster and Jacob turns into a previously-unseen-except-by-Locke white smoke (or something very beautiful)..
.......


You know, every time the flashes occur, or the failsafe is turned, we see what we have called white flashes. Perhaps it is white smoke protecting the people from the effects.....who knows.....


I liked how when our Jack decided to fight, he went Jack (Bauer).....




I looooooved this. Very touching at the end. We'll see what happens in a few wee.....months........er......man 2010.....so far away

[vikingguy]

All I can say is wow it is going to be a long wait till Jan 2010. Season finale week has been kick ass this year so far with Fringe and Lost. Tomorrow I am sure supernatural will also be off the charts awesome.

[Dad]

I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer

We got a flashback on Juliette, but no followup or appearance by Jacob.

I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?

The mind reels...

[Test]

I can't believe I didn't see the Locke in a box coming, when the body rolled out and they still weren't showing who it was I didn't put 2 n 2 together...all these thoughts on who it was going to be were racing through my head, thought for sure it was Jacob. Very cool.

Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?

[unixadm]

Definitely a GREAT season finale....and in typical LOST fashion, answered a few questions, but opened up a whole new can of questions.

I can't figured out why Jacob was visiting each of the people from flight 815 when they were younger. This shows me that they were predetermined WAY in advance that they were going to go to the island....unless Jacob can time travel as well....but why would he visit them anyway even if he knew they were coming to the island in the future?

16 Episodes left? It's gonna be tough to wrap all of it up in that time.

Only 8 months until it starts up again! (ugghh...8 months is too long!)

[toddvj]

Nice black thong Kate was wearing.
It was peeking out when she was pulling Sawyer out of the pit.
Ok, now to watch the ending. :)

In 1977? I didn't think thongs were that common back then?

[unixadm]

In 1977? I didn't think thongs were that common back then?

She was probably wearing her clothes from 2008 from when she got on the plane with everyone else.

[SC0TLANDF0REVER]

So did anyone else's TiVo not record the whole episode?
Is there anyway to tell what would cause it to stop recording 42 minutes into the show?
I checked the estimated space avail by looking at the deleted folder and there was approx 7-9 hrs worth of HiDef that it could have deleted to make room...

[fliptheflop]

Any chance that Ben is somehow related to Jacob...The loophole being it has to be a relative? I just think there has to be more to it then having just someone else do it.

[wooh]

I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up.

It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!

In my head, I knew it would be a long time, probably next spring, but saying 2010 just makes it seem even further away.

[Peter000]

I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?

The mind reels...

I was just thinking that. But I'm thinking maybe some of the encounters were Jacob, and some were the other guy "posing" as Jacob. But this begs the question, why would the black shirt guy pose as Jacob? Doesn't make much sense at this point.

What's in the damn guitar case? A guitar?

[MickeS]

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer

We got a flashback on Juliette, but no followup or appearance by Jacob.

I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan.

That makes no sense. Why would the other guy travel around looking like Jacob? And why would he talk to YOUNG Kate to get her to come BACK to the island?

At first I thought I understood the purpose of the visits.
Kate, he basically led her into a life of crime by making sure there was no consequence for her shoplifting, ultimately leading to her coming to the island.
Sawyer, he gave him the pen so he could write the letter that started his quest for revenge, again eventually leading him to the island.

But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...

Great episode. Will be a long wait.

[spikedavis]

Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

[sonnik]

I'd find it very disturbing, if - in an upcoming flashback, we learn that Jacob used the alias of "Paul Bennett". :cool:

(It took me a while to recognize Mark Pellegrino, Dexter fans...)


Sorry if I overlooked this already, but what was the picture of in the cabin before it was burned?

[aintnosin]

Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

According to Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cliffhanger):

Main Entry:
cliff–hang·er
Pronunciation:
\-ˌhaŋ-ər\
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1937

1: an adventure serial or melodrama ; especially : one presented in installments each ending in suspense

2: a contest whose outcome is in doubt up to the very end ; broadly : a suspenseful situation

[JYoung]

Holy Crap!

There's obviously some kind of contest going on between Jacob and Fake Locke and yes, it hearkens back to the exchange between Ben and Widmore.

The question is, how did Fake Locke know that Ben had killed Locke?
In fact, Fake Locke seems to know all about Locke's life including things Locke hasn't told anyone else (the incident in the cabin).

Are we talking God vs. Satan?
(Will Ray Wise appear?)

And remember how Jacob said "I'm sorry" to Locke after his father threw him out the window?
Was he apologizing in advance for Fake Locke using him as a pawn?

And please tell me that this isn't the last we've seen of Juliet.

[JYoung]

Wait, wait, wait!

How many of the other "apparitions" is Fake Locke responsible for?
Christian Shepard?
Claire?

[stitch626]

A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.

1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.

2.) I could be completely wrong, but isn't the fish that Jacob caught at the beginning of the episode literally a red herring?

[rgr]

Sorry if I overlooked this already, but what was the picture of in the cabin before it was burned?It was the statue.

[rgr]

1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.I got the impression that Locke was dead on the ground until he was touched, and then came back to life. Perhaps the beginning of the loophole?

[atrac]

Excellent casting of Mark Pellegrino as Jacob. I have only seen him a few times before (such as in the new "Knight Rider" -- have never seen "Dexter" though), but I thought he did an excellent job as Jacob.

Interesting though -- "what about you?" (to Ben). Apparently Jacob didn't seem to mind that he was about to get stabbed by Ben (come on, he had to know?). Then he warned Faux John that "they're coming." Can't wait to find out what that was all about!

Stupendous season finale. LOVED the black on white "Lost" logo at the end of it.

2010?!?!? Are you kidding me? Shoot me now!!!!

[Rob Helmerichs]

But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...
He stopped Sayid from dying or saving Nadia, either which outcome would have stopped him from going back to the island.

He convinced Hurley he was not crazy, fear of which was keeping him from going back to the island.

He brought Locke back to life, which made it possible for him to go to the island in the first place.

Maybe he didn't need to do anything with Jack, who was gonna go to the island no matter what! :D He did touch him, though...

[PKurmas]

Kate, he basically led her into a life of crime by making sure there was no consequence for her shoplifting, ultimately leading to her coming to the island.
Sawyer, he gave him the pen so he could write the letter that started his quest for revenge, again eventually leading him to the island.



Wow, that's a different way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. I assumed that Jacob's intervention with Kate was just to keep things from getting worse (e.g. an abusive father beating her for the shoplifting). And with Sawyer, if he hadn't written as much of the letter as he wrote, the uncle (or whoever it was) wouldn't have been able to read it & tell him that "what's done is done" and move on.

As for those who think that the visits were Jacob's nemesis, I'd say "oh come on"!!! That's needlessly complicating the story. The nemesis, while seeing the Black Rock arriving, wondered if Jacob brought them there. This established in my mind the belief that the contact with Jacob at some critical point in their life compelled people to reach the island. That's why they showed us the scene on the beach & then the visits!

The line I thought was most telling in the scene on the beach was Jacob's statement that "it can only end once". The nemesis protested that the visitors always bring fighting & discord, but Jacob *wants* it to end. I think that's the critical part of the story that is being set up for the last season... what "it" is, how "it" has effected everyone, and how "it" is ended. I'd bet the Incident (or Incident v2 if the bomb going off does change the path) is part of it, but not all of it.

[jlb]

Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

I don't feel cheated at all. But, perhaps if both Season 5 and Season 6 were longer than runs of 16 episodes they may have done more at the end here. But what we got feels appropriate to me.

Wait, wait, wait!

How many of the other "apparitions" is Fake Locke responsible for?
Christian Shepard?
Claire?

If Jacob, or whomever, can actually create apparitions, who's to say that they can't be made in the real world.....Perhaps Claire, and her whole family were just apparations intended to move the O6 to the Island.....NOt likely but in the Lost world.......


A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.

1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.

2.) I could be completely wrong, but isn't the fish that Jacob caught at the beginning of the episode literally a red herring?


Regarding #2, perhaps you are right. But I don't think CC&DL would be that literal with it........I could see them doing it to get us to think it is a red herring and to question if that was Jacob or not, only to have it really be him.






Last night when I finally crawled into bed, I also thought again about choice. And destiny. Perhaps in some ways, the past is the past, what's done is done, is true. But if you make a life choice, you can change your destiny. Jack going from being a man of science to a man of faith.....he chose that. It didn't just happen. Sawyer seeming like he went from being a remorseful con-man to a loving, nice guy in his 3 years with Juliette.....choice.

Maybe it is not that they need to "change the past" by blowing up a bomb. Maybe they all need to make a choice to change their lives in a significant way. Maybe only then can things be made "right".

Some Losties probably still need to make the choice. I think when we see what happens after the finale, we'll find that they are back on 815 and it does crash again. I think when all of the people have made their choices, they will be back on 815, it will land, but their lives will have changed. Kate will be on the plane, but she won't be a fugitive. Jack will be on, but going to see his living Dad. Hurley will be on since he is vacationing with his lottery money, etc........

Jacob, or whomever, probably live forever and it is his/their purpose to periodically bring people to the Island to make their choices and see if they can change their lives. I think the current group's "getting back to normal" hinges on Ben and Widmore.......

[BrandonRe]

Great episode. One line that keeps coming back to me is Ben complaining about Jacob talking to 'John'. "what is he, Moses?" or something to that effect. Odd because I commented to my wife that the journey to the statue reminded me of Moses leading his people out of Egypt. It's the way they were walking and the music
in the background.

I get the feeling that was more than a throwaay line. What it means I'm not sure, but I think it's important.

[jlb]

FYI, Amazon is running a sale on the Lost BluRays.....$10 off each one....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=pe_20890_12137250_fe_exp_1/?ie=UTF8&docId=1000350041

[Turtleboy]

Why was Ilana in a hospital ward with disfiguring injuries?

How did she recognize Jacob right away, know who he was, and agree to do what he asked?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Why was Ilana in a hospital ward with disfiguring injuries?

How did she recognize Jacob right away, know who he was, and agree to do what he asked?
Of course, the much bigger question is who are these new people? Well, obviously, not new people at all! So, who are these old people we've never met before?

[jlb]

I vote for crew of the Black Rock.

[Queue]

Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?

I had that thought last night after I went to bed.

What if the light at the end, wasn't time setting itself correctly, but another time jump for the people displaced. But only for those in the immediate vicinity. That way everyone but Rose and Bernard are back in the present, and they go to the cave and use it as a tomb.

[Queue]

Of course, the much bigger question is who are these new people? Well, obviously, not new people at all! So, who are these old people we've never met before?

They seem to be followers of Jacob that just don't live on the island. Maybe?

Also, maybe the shack, isn't the home of Jacob. That's the home of the black shirt guy. And the ash was a way to keep him confined so he couldn't cause trouble. Wasn't there a scene where someone messed up the ash? Maybe that's what let black shirt guy out

He could be the one that told Locke "help me". And Locke has inadvertently been helping him since.

[Fool Me Twice]

My local ABC station decided that tornadoes were more important than LOST. Rather than watch it with weather bugs, scrolls, and interruptions, I decided to wait until this morning and watch it online. So, I got up early...

I've just now finished. Good God, that was fantastic!

Now, I'll go back and read all the posts before me. I just had to get some sort of exclamation out first. I'm trembling here (in a very masculine sort of way).

(LOST makes me happy :) .)

[Rob Helmerichs]

Also, maybe the shack, isn't the home of Jacob. That's the home of the black shirt guy. And the ash was a way to keep him confined so he couldn't cause trouble. Wasn't there a scene where someone messed up the ash? Maybe that's what let black shirt guy out

He could be the one that told Locke "help me". And Locke has inadvertently been helping him since.
Yeah, it seemed clear to me (and my twisted mind) last night that Jacob used to live in the cabin, but hasn't in a long time. And that the person who has been giving people guidance from the cabin (posing as Jacob) is Jacob's old buddy.

And it would seem that Jacob's buddy is the one who keeps appearing as dead people, unless that's a trick they share. But we know Buddy does (since he's been posing as Locke). When I rewatch the series this summer, it will be interesting to keep an eye on what exactly the dead people get people to do, in light of what we know now. Good, or evil?

[tgrim1]

I assume now that the man in black/fake Locke is the smoke monster? This makes sense to me seeing that smokie as Bens daughter tells Ben to follow Locke who is in-fact fake Locke.

[jlb]

http://www.swollenpickles.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/jacob1.jpg

Look at this pic again......Take away the long hair, and it looks just like Jacob's buddy.

[cheesesteak]

I enjoyed that. I'm confused as hell but I enjoyed it.

Talk about a woman's perogative. Juliette sure changed her mind a lot.

I'm a little tired of the Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Juliette love quadrilateral.

[scheckeNYK]

That was a fun time. I was actually happy to see the bomb go off. Guess if they had a "which Lostie are you?" game I'd be Jack.





Yeah, I didn't really like their appearance, and personally didn't need it. I know lots of people wanted an answer about them, so that's cool they got their answer. But it didn't add anything to the episode for me. And there were some holes there.



If the loophole is as simple as "have someone else kill him" I'm a little puzzled why it took decades/centuries to finally pull it off. I expect a little more to the loophole.

I think faux Locke is not permitted to enter Jacob's home, or maybe even without Richard's permission. This whole plan put events in motion that led to Jacob's representative guiding faux Locke into the foot.

[flyers088]

Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?

Guess it as the scene was going on! Had to stop and explain the Adam/Eve reference to the wife.

What is the symbolism of the white background with the black Lost logo rather than the black background with the white Lost logo?

[scheckeNYK]

Holy Crap!



The question is, how did Fake Locke know that Ben had killed Locke?
In fact, Fake Locke seems to know all about Locke's life including things Locke hasn't told anyone else (the incident in the cabin).


Maybe he didn't. He said "Are we going to talk about the elephant in the room?" and Ben replied, "You mean the fact that I killed you?" So basically Ben told him everything he needed to know.

[flyers088]

I think faux Locke is not permitted to enter Jacob's home, or maybe even without Richard's permission. This whole plan put events in motion that led to Jacob's representative guiding faux Locke into the foot.

I was confused by the break in the ring around Jacob's cabin and why the 'good guys' were freaked out by it?

[davezatz]

Maybe older than you imply. If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?
I've been thinking Atlantis on and off this season, given the ancient lore, island settings, and ability to relocate physically.

Jacob story line - not sure what to think here. As with the series - who is the good guy? It sure looks like Jacob is the good guy. What is he trying to prove, from the beginning? If Jacob is the island's protector, what happens now?

I don't know... seems kinda traditional to force it into the tradition good guy/bad guy (white shirt, black shirt) roles. At least the mystery keeps the roles ambiguous for now. Not sure where they're going with it next season. Either way it's gotten a bit too supernatural/metaphysical for my tastes.

[Alfer]

My local ABC station decided that tornadoes were more important than LOST. Rather than watch it with weather bugs, scrolls, and interruptions, I decided to wait until this morning and watch it online. So, I got up early...

I've just now finished. Good God, that was fantastic!

Now, I'll go back and read all the posts before me. I just had to get some sort of exclamation out first. I'm trembling here (in a very masculine sort of way).

(LOST makes me happy :) .)

You must live around us....our storms blew in EXACTLY when LOST was to air and they were good about doing their NUMEROUS weather updates, but right at the 45 minutes part of the show the dipshi*ts decided to spend almost 30 minutes showing weather radars of rain...ugh....so we missed that whole middle section.

I'll go online tonight to watch that part.


Overall it was a pretty cool episode...still scratching my head about some things, but still pretty good ending overall.

Agreed though...2010 is a LONG way away!

[tgmii]

I cracked up at what I viewed as winks to the audience.

- Sayid telling Jack they have 2 hours to complete their mission with the bomb. Well, of course, the season finale is 2 hours! Its "24" with different Jack!

- At Sun's wedding, "I don't know, but his Korean is excellent", when they keep bashing the actor on his korean in the press.

-- or maybe I'm starting to insert my own jokes. :)


Tom

[danterner]

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer


Also Sun and Jin.

I wonder if the plot line of women unable to bear children on the island will be revisited in the last season.

I imagine it will be huge. The statue appeared to be hippo- or crocodile-faced. That, plus the ankh, make me think it is probably Taweret (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/taweret.htm), Egyptian goddess of birth and of rebirth into the afterlife. Afterlife/purgatory theories have been vehemently dismissed by DL&CC, but I expect to see them making a resurgence now that Tawaret is in the picture. Tawaret judges souls and guides them into the afterlife, and is also a guard of the entrance to the land of the dead. I found the last paragraph of the page to which I linked particularly interesting, as it talks about Tawaret's relation to Horus (the Horus/Horace homonym has been observed in prior threads), and it also talks about "keeping Set's powers of evil fettered by a chain" - this makes me think of the ash ring around the cabin, but also the electro-magnetized chain that dragged Juliette into the drilled pit, as well as the fact that in prior seasons when the smoke monster was dragging Locke toward its hole the sound it make kept being described by people as "like a chain".

I liked the line (paraphrasing) "In my experience, it's normally the bad guys that go out of their way to tell you they're good." In my own experience, good guys generally don't say things like "Do you know how much I want to kill you?" and then put complicated wheels into motion to make it happen, so I'm going to assume that Dark-Haired-Guy probably is not Good. Since it seems the he and Jacob are in a pitched battle, I'm going to assume that Jacob is Good. I think that Dark-Haired-Guy's dark hair and dark shirt, versus Jacob's light hair and light shirt, are clues to this. It seems we are being shown that resurrected Locke is actually Dark-Haired-Guy. If he was able to take the form of Locke, then I'm going to assume that he's also responsible for the other apparitions we've seen on the island (Christian, Ben's daughter, etc), previously attributed to the smoke monster. So are Dark-Haired-Guy and the smoke monster one and the same? The smoke monster has been described as the island's "security system" Why is the island trying to get rid of Jacob? Who is Jacob, and why is he on the island?

I'm going to guess that Jacob (who lives in base of the statue, apparently) is Taweret (or a priest of Taweret), and Dark-Haired-Guy is Set (or a priest of Set). If not literally, then at least metaphorically.

Or, maybe, the battle between Jacob and Dark-Haired-Guy is a personification of a battle between theologies/Gods. Not God vs. The Devil, because that's a battle that takes place within a single religion, but rather a battle pitching egyptian religion against judeo-christian religion. The first season was very heavily laden with judeo-christian references, but recently we've been seeing another pantheon. Maybe LOST is the story of them duking it out. The losties are just pawns in the larger battle, and the Gods, since they're Gods, can't kill each other. Makes me think of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods"

Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.

[cheesesteak]

Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?

[Steveknj]

I KNOW I'm in the minority here, but this is probably the first time since watching Lost that I can understand why people get turned off by all of this confusion and the story turning on a dime to something completely off the wall. If THIS whole thing...after investing 5+ years in these chararcters...is a game between Jacob and his nemesis and the Losties, the Others, and the Dharma folks are just pawns in this game, then to me, this is turning into a St. Elsewhere ending. I don't like this whole Jacob vs. Faux Locke or whatever we are calling him. This is WAY too out there, even for Lost. I am really totally confused about everything now. Why didn't the bomb go off when it was first dropped? How did Juliette survive? Is Whidmore Jacob's nemesis? How the heck will an H-bomb not destroy the whole island? My head hurts thinking about this. Maybe another rewatch will make me less confused. Too much to take in really.

[sshedlock]

Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?

I thought he said everything was in Faraday's journal.

[danplaysbass]

Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.

Global Cooling causes the sea level to drop and the island grew in size...


Awesome Episode!!

I also found it odd that Jacob intentionally touched every person he visited. It was almost as if he was predestining them to go to the island at some point.

I also think that the conversation between Jacob and Fake Locke implied that fake Locke had set the whole chain of events into motion to get ben to kill jacob...i mean everything.

[Philosofy]

Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?
He was in charge of Iraq's WMD program. :)

I think we'll find out nothing has changed: what happened, happened. In fact, I think the H bomb was necessary. If they didn't blow it up, the electromagnetic energy would have consumed the Island. If they blew it up too soon, it just would have killed everyone.

[martylamb]

I kind of expect Juliet to wake up in the jungle and start experiencing premonitions.

[Fool Me Twice]

In the interest of consistency, she had better be naked.

[nyy7]

The series has been so good that I started worrying that there will be no way to satisfy us with a good ending next year! It will probably end with alot of questions not answered, which in and of itself is not bad. However, too many unanswered questions or contrived loose end tie ups may be something to worry about. So... join me in not watching the last season and have LOST end in the white flash of last night! ( Only kidding )
Bruce in Belle Harbor

[Rinkdog]

Why was the giant crate brought on the airplane? If it did not ave anything in it until they put Locke's body in it why did they have it in the first place. Other than to have a dramatic reveal when the contents were shown it doesn't make any sense that they had the crate when the didn't bring anything in it to begin with.

[Steveknj]

The series has been so good that I started worrying that there will be no way to satisfy us with a good ending next year! It will probably end with alot of questions not answered, which in and of itself is not bad. However, too many unanswered questions or contrived loose end tie ups may be something to worry about. So... join me in not watching the last season and have LOST end in the white flash of last night! ( Only kidding )
Bruce in Belle Harbor


I'll be happy if they tie up the MAIN questions coherently. I'm not convinced they can any longer. I think they've taken this SOOO far from the way I ever expected this to go, that it will be hard to reel it back in.

[tewcewl]

I KNOW I'm in the minority here, but this is probably the first time since watching Lost that I can understand why people get turned off by all of this confusion and the story turning on a dime to something completely off the wall. If THIS whole thing...after investing 5+ years in these chararcters...is a game between Jacob and his nemesis and the Losties, the Others, and the Dharma folks are just pawns in this game, then to me, this is turning into a St. Elsewhere ending. I don't like this whole Jacob vs. Faux Locke or whatever we are calling him. This is WAY too out there, even for Lost. I am really totally confused about everything now. Why didn't the bomb go off when it was first dropped? How did Juliette survive? Is Whidmore Jacob's nemesis? How the heck will an H-bomb not destroy the whole island? My head hurts thinking about this. Maybe another rewatch will make me less confused. Too much to take in really.
I read a similar sentiment on another forum on Lostpedia. I don't think we have all the cards yet, so we cannot still postulate what's really going on. There's still too many wild cards out there -- Widmore, Richard, Ben, Christian, and even Claire.

I think the bomb didn't go off because it didn't have enough of a violent impact when it fell to detonate. It looked like it landed in some mud. Juliet didn't survive completely just fine. She looked like she was on the brink of death with internal bleeding. She probably only had a couple of minutes left, just enough to detonate the bomb.

And as for the H-bomb, I could be mistaken, but I think someone else said in a previous thread that H-bombs really don't have as much energy as people associate with a nuclear bomb. It would be much more of a localized event than an island-wide thing. Having said that, though, I do think that the detonation of the energy of the H-bomb will be sucked in by the pocket of energy that they tapped into, so the fallout will be VERY limited.

GREAT episode. A lot to mull on for the next several months.

[tewcewl]

Why was the giant crate brought on the airplane? If it did not ave anything in it until they put Locke's body in it why did they have it in the first place. Other than to have a dramatic reveal when the contents were shown it doesn't make any sense that they had the crate when the didn't bring anything in it to begin with.
I was under the impression that they didn't BRING anything with them. The crate was labeled Ajira Airlines, so it was already on the airplane.

[Fish Man]

OK so obviously the hydrogen bomb stops the super magnatism thing, and that's exactly what happened when desmond turned the key too. I guess that is their failsafe.

So, maybe Juliette is still alive like Desmond was after he used the failsafe.

Obviously?

Not obvious by any means.

We know that Juliet set the bomb off. We have no idea what the bomb did to the magnetic thing. We'll have to wait until next season to find out.

The bomb may have:


Deactivated the magnetism phenomenon and left the island intact.
Deactivated the magnetism thing and obliterated the island.
Had no effect on the magnetism thing (the magnetic phenomenon is so awesome that it "absorbed" the bomb's energy, or something like that), and left the island intact.
Had no effect on the magnetism thing but obliterated the island. (Magnetic effect is still undersea, or moved, or somesuch).
Activated whatever device/force/whatever the "donkey wheel" controls and simply moved the island out of the harm of the blast.


I'd imagine that the writers could think of other possibilities as well.

[jeff125va]

I might have missed some technical explanations, but is it possible that the core of the H-Bomb was enough to "destroy the energy pocket" but not destroy the island and, more importantly, all the people on it? Especially given how far down it was, and if they had enough time to get a safe distance (if there is such a thing) from the explosion? In other words, is it realistic to assume that what happened had been "the incident" all along (i.e. that Miles was right).

I think it might be 18 episodes next season - they had said after returning from the strike that they would get 48 over the final 3 seasons as originally planned, and we had 13 last season and 17 this season.

So did we really go this entire season without ever seeing Claire?

I've been planning on re-watching the entire series leading up to next season... just realized I'm going to have to average about 3 episodes a week between now and then. Wow.

[Steveknj]

I was under the impression that they didn't BRING anything with them. The crate was labeled Ajira Airlines, so it was already on the airplane.

I thought that Jack was bringing Locke's body back to the Island. That was what was SUPPOSED to be in the crate (and was).

[Fish Man]

I'm certainly in agreement that it will be tough to wait until 2010 for more Lost.

However, some people seem to be surprised by this.

The last two (or has it been 3 now) seasons of Lost have begun "mid season" in TV parlance. Specifically, January or February.

Next January or February is 2010. Nothing I didn't already assume and expect.

[mrpope]

I don't think Widmore is Jacob's nemisis. Just that Ben is. Ben and widmore both want to serve jacob, but have different views on how to do this.

the loophole might be for fake locke to get one of Jacob's followers to turn on and kill him like Judas.

[mrpope]

Plus, the core of an h-bomb would be a small fision bomb and would not be powerfull enough to destroy much.

[Steveknj]

I'm certainly in agreement that it will be tough to wait until 2010 for more Lost.

However, some people seem to be surprised by this.

The last two (or has it been 3 now) seasons of Lost have begun "mid season" in TV parlance. Specifically, January or February.

Next January or February is 2010. Nothing I didn't already assume and expect.

People are just "high" on the finale, and I'm sure all of us would love this to continue straight through to the end starting next WEEK!!! Of course if they started this back up in the fall, we'd have all those breaks that people hated the first couple of seasons. I personally look more forward to the winter season (January-May) than the Fall season. There are less breaks and I am less busy so I can catch up easier.

[Rinkdog]

I thought that Jack was bringing Locke's body back to the Island. That was what was SUPPOSED to be in the crate (and was).
I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate? I guess it doesn't matter anyway. 2010 seems awfully far off. Maybe we should start a campaign to get this final season on the fall schedule. I for one will take my chance enduring weeks of repeats.

[MacThor]

I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate? I guess it doesn't matter anyway. 2010 seems awfully far off. Maybe we should start a campaign to get this final season on the fall schedule. I for one will take my chance enduring weeks of repeats.

Why is the crate such a big deal? It looked like a standard crate for checked baggage to me.

[SocratesJohnson]

Just a random thought. If the H-Bomb plan was successful, Black shirt guy's plan will have failed/never happened/been delayed, and Jacob will still be alive.

[jeff125va]

...the loophole might be for fake locke to get one of Jacob's followers to turn on and kill him like Judas.
Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?

[jradford]

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

Sent from a friend who likely got it from another board. Awesome parallels. Also, was it just me or were there definitely some strange looks shown after Ben mentioned "Moses?"

[Fish Man]

Plus, the core of an h-bomb would be a small fision bomb and would not be powerfull enough to destroy much.

The core of an H-Bomb has "only" about the same yield as "Little Boy", the fission bomb detonated at Hiroshima.

H-Bombs were a magnitude increase in yield over fission bombs. But, fission bombs were still pretty damn spectacular.

[BitbyBlit]

I wonder if the cabin that Bernard and Rose built was the cabin that Jacob and/or not-Locke were using. Or maybe it was Jacob or not-Locke that built the cabin, and Bernard and Rose just found it.

[MacThor]

Or the loophole is that it had to be the "leader" who killed Jacob. Since Locke was dead, technically Ben was the leader. And Titus Welliver-blacksmokemonster-fake-Locke duped the others into thinking he was the leader.

"You have no idea what I went through to get here" is hinting to me that everything that has taken place on the island was orchestrated by the dark one. He duped them all - Widmore, Hawking....

There is probably some significance to Jacob visiting Jack, Kate, James, Locke, Sun & Jin pre-flight 815, and Hugo and Sayid after they returned. I don't know when he visited Ilana. And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?

[SocratesJohnson]

Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?

Maybe whatever Jacob did to save little Ben "changed" him in a way that gave him the ability to kill Jacob. This is assuming that it was in fact Jacob that healed him which to me seems pretty likely now. If true it makes that exchange between the two at the end even better. Ben complaining "what about me?" to Jacob not even aware that the man saved his life.

[3D]

Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.

Very good observation.

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer

We got a flashback on Juliette, but no followup or appearance by Jacob.

I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?

The mind reels...

I think it might be significant that Jacob visited Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Locke, Jin and Sun before they had ever been to the island, but didn't visit Hurley or Sayid until they were back after there first time on the island. (eta MacThor beat me to it) I have no clue, however, what that significance might be. Someone else wondered if Jacob off the island was really black shirt guy. Maybe the older encounters were with the real Jacob, but the newer ones, with Hurley and Sayid, were with black shirt guy and part of his plan to find a loophole to an as of yet unspecified rule. I have no idea, however, why he would find it necessary to take on Jacob's form with people who've never seen Jacob. Oh, can we refer to black shirt guy as bsg, or would that confuse people because it's the shorthand for that scifi network show that died of repeated shark jumping?

A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.

1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.

There was a video interview posted yesterday at ew.com with Darlton where Damon Lindelof was asked to give a cryptic message about something we could expect from the season finale. Just to be safe, I'll spoil his response:

He said something along the lines of "parts of the episode are touching." He then went on to joke that he didn't necessarily mean emotionally touching, which of course made me think that that's exactly what he meant. To be honest, even having watched the interview, I never even thought about the touching by Jacob until stitch pointed it out. I'd wager now, however, that we'll eventually find out the significance of Jacob having to touch the Losties while off island.

[Steveknj]

And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?

Well I think that has something to do with her wanting to keep her marriage (are they married?) together with Sawyer, which led to her actions regarding Kate, Jack and so forth.

[uncdrew]

But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...

My crazy thoughts:

Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.

Sayid -- Needed to get the woman out of the story for Sayid to be free for the lifestyle that gets him to the island.

Hurley -- had to get that guitar case to him.

Jack -- Jack needed an Apollo bar. ;) Actually, Jack needed to know that his dad was on his side just enough that Jack would go get his body from Australia.

[jkeegan]

I wonder if the cabin that Bernard and Rose built was the cabin that Jacob and/or not-Locke were using. Or maybe it was Jacob or not-Locke that built the cabin, and Bernard and Rose just found it.Horace(sp?) built the cabin.

[jkeegan]

So, when Richard hits Eloise over the head with the gun, he said he was saving their leader. Was she the leader now, instead of Widmore? What's up with that? Was she the leader from the 50s up until now, and only after she eventually leaves does Widmore become the leader?

[jeff125va]

Well I think that has something to do with her wanting to keep her marriage (are they married?) together with Sawyer, which led to her actions regarding Kate, Jack and so forth.
First, no, they were cohabitating (you evidently didn't watch the clip show, but I had always assumed that they weren't married anyway).

But I think the flashback had more to do with her having doubts about whether she and Sawyer, as opposed to Kate and Sawyer, were destined to be together, and her giving up on her and Sawyer's relationship lasting forever.

[hefe]

I think the Incident basically went on as it always would have. For example, we knew that Dr. Chang lost a hand somewhere, and we saw his injury in the Incident which maintains continuity with that.

[Fool Me Twice]

So, when Richard hits Eloise over the head with the gun...



I've noticed that people get hit over the head with guns a lot on this show. No brain damage though. It's like a nice sedative; one that works the first time every time.

[JYoung]

Maybe older than you imply.

If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?

Well, Richard is "really old"
Old enough that Latin is the Native tongue for Richardus (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7029694#post7029694).

[DancnDude]

Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.


More like resurrected...that was my first inkling anyways.

[MacThor]

My crazy thoughts:

Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.

Sayid -- Needed to get the woman out of the story for Sayid to be free for the lifestyle that gets him to the island.

Hurley -- had to get that guitar case to him.

Jack -- Jack needed an Apollo bar. ;) Actually, Jack needed to know that his dad was on his side just enough that Jack would go get his body from Australia.

The line to Jack was "Sometimes we just need a little push".....

[Fool Me Twice]

Well, Richard is "really old"
Old enough that Latin is the Native tongue for Richardus (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7029694#post7029694).

We don't know that it's his native tongue, just that the others use it because it's the language of the "enlightened". Which is what people called it after it was already a dead language, so I'm thinking possibly 18th century. Or maybe that word was a poor choice.

[MacThor]

My wife and I were thinking throughout the show that Locke was BSG/Esau. What threw me off the trail was when they approached the giant foot, BSG/Esau/FakeLocke said "Well that's a very nice foot Richard, but why are we here?" and seemed genuinely surprised when told that's where Jacob lives. Because BSG/Esau/FL was sitting on that very beach at the beginning of the episode.

[astrohip]

I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.

BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was amazing in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ETA...found this scene from "Cabin Fever", from last year.

ORDERLY ABADDON: (interrupts) As a matter of fact, I did read your file. You survived falling eight stories out of a building. That's a miracle, Mr. Locke. Let me ask you something. Do you believe in miracles?

LOCKE: No. I don't believe in miracles.
So what happened to Locke was a "miracle". Hmm . . .

[JYoung]

We don't know that it's his native tongue, just that the others use it because it's the language of the "enlightened". Which is what people called it after it was already a dead language, so I'm thinking possibly 18th century. Or maybe that word was a poor choice.

Then why call him "Richardus"?
Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?

[hefe]

Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?

If it was Ricardo, he'd have some 'splaining to do.

[danplaysbass]

I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...

[unicorngoddess]

First off, I have put in preorders for Lost Season 1 on Blu-ray (release date June 16) and Lost Season 5 on Blu-ray (release date December 8) I'm very excited about that.

Second, why do I get this feeling that the bomb didn't go off? I mean, yes we saw a huge white flash right as Juilet hit the bomb, but this is Lost after all. What if the island was trying to protect itself or use whatever mystical powers it has to create another flash and send them traveling through time again.

So, did it turn out that that other guy, instead of Dr. Chang, was in charge of all these experiments? Dr. Chang seemed really ticked off at him running some kind of "experiments".

Also, did Jacob touch Hurley in any way? They had that guitar case between them so I don't have a clear memory of physical contact.

[Fool Me Twice]

Then why call him "Richardus"?
Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?

That was just the name he used in Latin class. :p

[jeff125va]

I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.

BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was amazing in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ETA...found this scene from "Cabin Fever", from last year.

So what happened to Locke was a "miracle". Hmm . . .
I'd have to look again. As soon as I saw "Ames" on the side of the store, I knew.

Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.

Interesting that when Sawyer told Jack the story about the con man, he didn't mention that it happened to be Locke's father. He is aware of that, correct?

[jeff125va]

I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...
I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps they would have experienced something like Sayid and Desmond did on the helicopter (in "The Constant" or the one before that). But we know that flight 815 passed into the island's vicinity without that type of effect, so who knows?

[Scubee]

Also, did Jacob touch Hurley in any way? They had that guitar case between them so I don't have a clear memory of physical contact.

Yes. He touched him on the upper arm just before exiting the cab.

[Steveknj]

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps they would have experienced something like Sayid and Desmond did on the helicopter (in "The Constant" or the one before that). But we know that flight 815 passed into the island's vicinity without that type of effect, so who knows?

I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.

[BitbyBlit]

Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?

I wonder if it's something like if one kills the other, then both of them die. And if either tried to get someone else to kill the other, that person would end up killing them both. Perhaps the loophole was that since Ben killed Locke, and Not-Locke took the form of Locke, that allows Ben to kill Jacob while still allowing Not-Locke to live (perhaps only in Locke's form).

So far we haven't seen real Locke do anything as a leader, so I'm wondering if Jacob was at all involved with picking him as the leader. Richard didn't seem convinced that child Locke was destined to become the leader, but future Locke appearing followed by Jack saying, "Don't count him out yet" pushed him in the direction of thinking there was something special about Locke.

We now know that it was Not-Locke that pushed Locke in the direction of meeting Richard. And if he was the one in the cabin, then he also told John to move the island. It also appears that he was Christian, and thus told John how to turn the Donkey Wheel.

So was all of this a set-up to turn Locke into a leader that he was not supposed to be? It appears that Jacob at the very least intended Locke to have some connection with the island since he visited Locke, but maybe he wasn't supposed to be the leader. Although one would think that Jacob would have told Richard that. But maybe even he was tricked by future Locke meeting Richard, and didn't realize what was going on until it was too late.

Jacob did visit Sayid and Hurley post-island, so bringing them back to the island wasn't all Not-Locke's doing. But maybe Not-Locke acted like he didn't want the Oceanic 6 to return in order to cover up what he had planned for them when they did. Or maybe getting them off the island was so that he could "steal" some of them when they came back.

[BitbyBlit]

Horace(sp?) built the cabin.

Wasn't that in a vision, though? If so, I'm not sure that's necessarily what actually happened.

[Queue]

I don't think this has been brought up before, but the little boy that was with Kate, had a toy airplane with him. It looked to be the same toy airplane that was in the safe deposit box that Kate robbed, and was given to her by the only boy she ever loved.

[hapdrastic]

Wow, that's a different way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. I assumed that Jacob's intervention with Kate was just to keep things from getting worse (e.g. an abusive father beating her for the shoplifting). And with Sawyer, if he hadn't written as much of the letter as he wrote, the uncle (or whoever it was) wouldn't have been able to read it & tell him that "what's done is done" and move on.

I had it in my head, after the Kate visit, that Jacob was altering the past to *prevent* them from being on 815 in the first place. Kate was on the plane as a fugitive, so I was thinking that Jacob buying the box and getting her out of trouble prevented her life from wandering down the criminal path. I thought something similar happened with the letter, as you mentioned above, and perhaps Sawyer wouldn't feel the need to go to Australia, and so wouldn't have been on the plane.

That said, I don't think that theory holds up all that well with some of the other Jacob visits, but we'll see. Probably won't pan out, but it'd be interesting!

[Queue]

Part of me wonders if the bomb did go off, does correct everything, so the 815er's never come to the island, then all of next year is spent dealing with the history of the island from the viewpoint of Jacob and black shirt guy.

[MacThor]

BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was amazing in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!

Or the moment we saw her best friend with the little toy airplane....

[BitbyBlit]

Maybe whatever Jacob did to save little Ben "changed" him in a way that gave him the ability to kill Jacob. This is assuming that it was in fact Jacob that healed him which to me seems pretty likely now. If true it makes that exchange between the two at the end even better. Ben complaining "what about me?" to Jacob not even aware that the man saved his life.

Maybe that's also what prevented him from seeing Jacob earlier. Perhaps he could only see Jacob now because he had turned the Donkey Wheel.

If Jacob did bring Locke back to life, perhaps he also brought Ben back to life. I wonder if there is significance to the fact that a person that Jacob brought back to life killed another that he had also brought back to life.

[hefe]

Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.

From the pilot episode:
KATE: You don't seem afraid at all. I don't understand that.

JACK: Well, fear's sort of an odd thing. When I was in residency, my first solo procedure was a spinal surgery on a 16 year old kid, a girl. And at the end, after 13 hours, I was closing her up and I, I accidentally ripped her dural sac. Shredded the base of the spine where all the nerves come together, membrane as thin as tissue. And so it ripped open. And the nerves just spilled out of her like angel hair pasta, spinal fluid flowing out of her and I … And the terror was just so … crazy. So real. And I knew I had to deal with it. (He's crying). So I just made a choice. I'd let the fear in, let it take over, let it do its thing, but only for five seconds, that's all I was going to give it. So I started to count: One, two, three, four, five. Then it was gone. I went back to work, sewed her up and she was fine.

No mention of dad.

Interesting that when Sawyer told Jack the story about the con man, he didn't mention that it happened to be Locke's father. He is aware of that, correct?

Yes.

From "The Brig"
LOCKE: You're not gonna shoot anyone, James.

SAWYER: One! Two!

LOCKE: If there were any bullets in that gun, why would you hold a knife to my throat?

SAWYER: Ah! Son of a bitch!!

COOPER: Guess I didn't raise no dummies.

SAWYER: The hell's that mean?

COOPER: It means that bald headed bastard outside the door is my son.

SAWYER: Come again?

COOPER: My son. As in I'm his father. You do speak English?

SAWYER: [Inaudible, sounds like “Your his...”] How did you get here, to the Island?

COOPER: Island? OK. I'm driving down I10 through Tallahassee when bam, somebody slams into the back of my car. I go right into the divider at seventy miles an hour, the next thing I know, the paramedics are strapping me to a gurney, stuffing me into the back of an ambulance and one of them actually smiles at me as he pops the IV in my arm. And then, nothing. Just, black. And the next thing I know I wake up in a dark room tied up, gag in my mouth, and when the door opens, I'm looking up at the same man I threw out a window, John Locke. My dead son.

[Pause]

SAWYER: And he's dead cause you threw him out a window?

COOPER: No he survived that. But it paralyzed him, permanently. He's dead because the plane he was flying on crashed in the Pacific.

SAWYER: Well I got bad news for ya pops, cause I was on that plane with your son. He sure as hell wasn't crippled. And we didn't crash in the Pacific, we crashed here on this Island.

COOPER: You sure its an Island?

SAWYER: Well what else is it?

COOPER: Little hot for heaven isn't it?

SAWYER: [Sarcastically] Oh OK, so we're dead?

COOPER: They found your plane on the bottom of the ocean. One minute I'm in a car wreck and the next minute I'm in a pirate ship in the middle of the jungle. If this isn't hell friend, then where are we?

SAWYER: Why did you throw Locke out a window?

COOPER: He was becoming a nuisance. I conned him into giving me one of his kidneys. He never got over it.

SAWYER: [Pauses] Conned?

COOPER: Yes sir, conned.

SAWYER: What's your name?

COOPER: Hmm?

SAWYER: Your name.

COOPER: A conman goes by many names friend. I've been Alan Seward, Anthony Cooper, Ted MacLaren, Tom Sawyer, Louis Jackson, and Paul...

SAWYER: Tom Sawyer.

COOPER: I was young and Huck Finn was taken. And the ladies loved that one. Made me charming.

SAWYER: Well how about that.

COOPER: How about what?

SAWYER: Sawyer's my name too.

[spikedavis]

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?

[tgrim1]

If it was Ricardo, he'd have some 'splaining to do.

lol, awesome!

[danterner]

I don't think this has been brought up before, but the little boy that was with Kate, had a toy airplane with him. It looked to be the same toy airplane that was in the safe deposit box that Kate robbed, and was given to her by the only boy she ever loved.

And didn't she put the airplane and some other things (a tape?) into a lunchbox time capsule that she subsequently unearthed in the episode "Born to Run"? Was that lunchbox the same NKOTB lunchbox we saw her steal in this episode?

[danplaysbass]

I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.

But why? They're under the water. Its not like you could likely figure it out...

[gchance]

In the interest of consistency, she had better be naked.

Naked Juliet, quite possibly in the mud, quite possibly in the rain, running around the jungle? Bring it on!

I'll be happy if they tie up the MAIN questions coherently. I'm not convinced they can any longer. I think they've taken this SOOO far from the way I ever expected this to go, that it will be hard to reel it back in.

Not a big fan of mystery, eh? Ever read a mystery novel, or seen a movie mystery? Good ones set up a mystery to the point where you can figure it out by the end, that's part of the fun.

But the good ones, the GREAT ones, set up the mystery for you and somewhere close to the end, pull the rug out and go in a direction you never expected, for an ending you never could have guessed.

I read a similar sentiment on another forum on Lostpedia. I don't think we have all the cards yet, so we cannot still postulate what's really going on. There's still too many wild cards out there -- Widmore, Richard, Ben, Christian, and even Claire.

Damon Lindelof has specifically said that between this episode and the S6 season premiere, there is enough information for the viewers to get a good idea of where it's going and how it will end. We've only seen half of it.

Given that though, I'm sure it'll still be obsure to the point that most of us won't get it.

So did we really go this entire season without ever seeing Claire?

Yup.

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?

I noticed this immediately, in fact I figured it was pretty obvious. It was a little bit different though, the ambient stuff (echoes, backwards sounds) wasn't there. There was certainly a similarity.

I also want to mention the fact that I, too loved Rose & Bernard. Yes, the scene was sort of tacked on as a nod to the audience to let us know what was happening with them, but the dialogue was great. Rose telling them about how they went 30 years into the past just to try and kill each other again, and Bernard saying, if we die, we die. The look in Sawyers eye let us know he wishes he was where they are.

And speaking of Sawyer, was Josh Holloway spot-on this entire episode or what? The whole sequence of Juliet falling down the hole in particular, but even in the earlier scene when he talked to Jack about why they were doing what they were doing. Fabulous work on his part.

Greg

[hefe]

And didn't she put the airplane and some other things (a tape?) into a lunchbox time capsule that she subsequently unearthed in the episode "Born to Run"? Was that lunchbox the same NKOTB lunchbox we saw her steal in this episode?

Yes.

According to Lostpedia:

Time Capsule

In the Season 1 episode "Born to Run", Kate and her once-boyfriend Tom Brennan visit a time capsule which they had buried under a tree in the middle of a cow pasture. They buried it on August 15, 1989 (8/15/89), when they were much younger.

A "New Kids on the Block" lunch box was used to hold the contents of the time capsule:

* WestHills baseball cap
* Kate's toy airplane
* Cassette tape (Kate and Tom's tape)
* Autographed baseball
* A few other unrecognizable things

[aindik]

I also want to mention the fact that I, too loved Rose & Bernard. Yes, the scene was sort of tacked on as a nod to the audience to let us know what was happening with them, but the dialogue was great. Rose telling them about how they went 30 years into the past just to try and kill each other again, and Bernard saying, if we die, we die. The look in Sawyers eye let us know he wishes he was where they are.

"It's always something with you people."

:D

[DreadPirateRob]

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?

Maybe Juliet is Smokey? :eek::D

[jeff125va]

I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.
Yeah, it's SOP, but I thought the question was about the purpose? When Juliet was about to go, they (Richard, or whoever was with him) made a vague reference to it being "a bumpy ride" or something to that effect. There may be more to it - if it were more than just nauseating turbulence, I imagine they wouldn't want to freak out the new recruits.

Regardless, since they're in a submarine, they're effectively blindfolded in regards to their ability to figure out where the island is. I can't imagine that's the purpose. Unless it's so extraordinarily long, or perhaps even short, in duration due to some time travel effect, that it would freak out the recruits as to how they got to a tropical island. Still, that wouldn't help them figure out how to get there or back, just confuse them, but in a way that they probably wouldn't want to.

[Scubee]

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?

But we see a painting or mural on the wall of the temple depicting what appears to be smokey and an egyptian. Wasn't that when Ben went to be judged and we see smokey come out of the holes below the painting? I thought that hinted that smokey had been around a long time.

[uncdrew]

I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...

I suppose it's some crazy fear that they might figure out how to get back and forth.


But yeah, kinda silly.

[jeff125va]

From the pilot episode:


No mention of dad.



Yes.

From "The Brig"
Cool. I've definitely seen the pilot multiple times, but I still have a feeling that it was at least referred to again at some point.

Thanks. I was pretty sure that he knew, and that if he did that he found out at that point. Still, I don't understand how people tell stories like that and don't say "and oh by the way, get this, it was LOCKE'S DAD, what are the chances of that?"

[Steveknj]

Naked Juliet, quite possibly in the mud, quite possibly in the rain, running around the jungle? Bring it on!



Not a big fan of mystery, eh? Ever read a mystery novel, or seen a movie mystery? Good ones set up a mystery to the point where you can figure it out by the end, that's part of the fun.

But the good ones, the GREAT ones, set up the mystery for you and somewhere close to the end, pull the rug out and go in a direction you never expected, for an ending you never could have guessed.




Greg


I happen to enjoy a good mystery. But a good mystery, at least one where the story ends and doesn't connect to the next book (in this case, the story ends at the end of next season), will tie up the major loose ends for you. It might not tie up everything, but it will tie up the major story lines. If it doesn't you get the feeling that you've just read this 400 page book and are left hanging. That's kind of where I think this is going....there are SOOOO many little plot lines going one and so many unanswered questions, and little pieces that will need to be woven into the story, that I feel that we may get to the end and not be satisfied that its all come together.

And I must say, before this episode, I didn't think that way. The one thing that bothers me, is that to me, the story has always been about the losties, whether they were fighting the Others, or trying to figure out how to get off the Island, or even all this time skipping stuff. But ultimately, this looks like a "bet" between Jacob and the other guy as to how he could kill Jacob, and if that's the ultimate plotline, then having been duped for 5+ seasons thinking this will be about something else doesn't quite sit right with me.

But I'm hoping I'm wrong and this will wind up being a whole lot more than that, and I hope it all ties together.

[brianp6621]

Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

Have you ever heard of a season finale cliffhanger?

[brianp6621]

The statue appeared to be hippo- or crocodile-faced. That, plus the ankh, make me think it is probably Taweret (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/taweret.htm), Egyptian goddess of birth and of rebirth into the afterlife.

Hmm, I'll have to rewatch. I thought it was clearly Anubis.. Maybe too much SG1 in my veins.

[danterner]

Hmm, I'll have to rewatch. I thought it was clearly Anubis.. Maybe too much SG1 in my veins.

While looking for some screencaps to post, I came across the following site that also guesses it to be Taweret and includes screencaps, so I'll just link (http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/05/5x16-the-statue-finally-settle.php#more) to it instead. There's also discussion there about the possibility that it may be a different God, Sobek. I like both theories. I'm torn.

For what its worth, its mentioned in the comments there that the official episode recap on the ABC site refers to the statue as Taweret. I don't think that's canon, though.

[MickeS]

It was definitely not Anubis, it had a crocodile head. I'd say Taweret sounds right (but it's not supposed to have a crocodile head according to the link above?).

Anyway, found this, which probably means nothing, but could relate to "Lost"

In the Book of the Dead, Taweret, the 'Lady of Magical Protection', was seen as a goddess who guided the dead into the afterlife. As with her double nature of protector and guardian, she was also a guard to the mountains of the west where the deceased entered the land of the dead. Many of the deities relating to birth also appear in the underworld to help with the rebirth of the souls into their life after death.

[Dnamertz]

He stopped Sayid from dying or saving Nadia, either which outcome would have stopped him from going back to the island.

He convinced Hurley he was not crazy, fear of which was keeping him from going back to the island.

He brought Locke back to life, which made it possible for him to go to the island in the first place.

Maybe he didn't need to do anything with Jack, who was gonna go to the island no matter what! :D He did touch him, though...

And what about Sun? I can't remember what Jacob said to Sun and Jin when he visited them at their wedding. Was it something that would help convince her to return to find Jin?

[Dnamertz]

Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.

Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?

[MickeS]

Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?

It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.

[Fleegle]

Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.


Says quite a bit about Jack that he left out his father pushing him to set his fear aside, doesn't it? He took the advice that his father gave him and made ti sound like it was something he came up with on his own.

They also had a line to bring that scene into our memories where Kate was talking about sewing Jack up. That's where he first told that story.

[Fleegle]

Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?

It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.

That's where the Losties found the OLD dynamite to blow the hatch to the Swan station. It's also where Sawyer killed Locke's father.

[gchance]

I happen to enjoy a good mystery. But a good mystery, at least one where the story ends and doesn't connect to the next book (in this case, the story ends at the end of next season), will tie up the major loose ends for you. It might not tie up everything, but it will tie up the major story lines. If it doesn't you get the feeling that you've just read this 400 page book and are left hanging. That's kind of where I think this is going....there are SOOOO many little plot lines going one and so many unanswered questions, and little pieces that will need to be woven into the story, that I feel that we may get to the end and not be satisfied that its all come together.

Think of it more as a book SERIES, with each episode being a chapter. If Lost were a book series you'd have 6 books, each with a # of chapters. The last two books have 18 chapters.

Since it's a book SERIES, there are two sets of mysteries. There are those specific to each book (part of that book's story arc), and larger mysteries that apply to the series arc.

Greg

[Dnamertz]

It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.

Was that where they found the dynamite?

[5thcrewman]

Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?
It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.

Follow the trail of Arzt.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/9/94/Arzt_Explosives.jpg

[Fleegle]

Follow the trail of Arzt.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/9/94/Arzt_Explosives.jpg

Couldn't have happened to a nicer dude!

[DevdogAZ]

Holy Crap!

There's obviously some kind of contest going on between Jacob and Fake Locke and yes, it hearkens back to the exchange between Ben and Widmore.

The question is, how did Fake Locke know that Ben had killed Locke?
In fact, Fake Locke seems to know all about Locke's life including things Locke hasn't told anyone else (the incident in the cabin).
What I think is interesting is that Ben (and Hawking) were so intent on bringing Locke's body on Flight 316 with them. And then Ilana and her crew carried that body around the Island. And Jacob apparently told Ilana to do this. But Ben, who is the one who set this all in motion by killing Locke in the first place, is the one that's duped by the whole thing.
I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate?
The people carrying the crate around were never in proximity to the group that Fake Locke was leading until that scene on the beach, when Fake Locke was already inside the statue. As far as we know, Ilana and her crew don't know that there is a Fake Locke.
And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?
The point of that was simply to show that she'd be hurt by the loss of loved ones before, and she didn't want to lose someone she loved again. So by taking steps to ensure that she'd never meet Sawyer, she wouldn't end up getting hurt by him when he left her to be with Kate.

[5thcrewman]

Between Jacob and Faux Locke- which one is The Bad Twin?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/4/49/Badtwin2.jpg

[Fleegle]

The people carrying the crate around were never in proximity to the group that Fake Locke was leading until that scene on the beach, when Fake Locke was already inside the statue. As far as we know, Ilana and her crew don't know that there is a Fake Locke.


They saw and interacted with Locke when he was with the survivors of the Ajira Air flight.

[Steveknj]

Think of it more as a book SERIES, with each episode being a chapter. If Lost were a book series you'd have 6 books, each with a # of chapters. The last two books have 18 chapters.

Since it's a book SERIES, there are two sets of mysteries. There are those specific to each book (part of that book's story arc), and larger mysteries that apply to the series arc.

Greg

That's how I look at it, and that is fine. But again, at the end of a series of mysteries, unless there's going to be MORE mysteries, I would expect things to be tied up.

[DevdogAZ]

They saw and interacted with Locke when he was with the survivors of the Ajira Air flight.
But I don't think they'd found the body at that point. The first time we're aware of them knowing about the body is when Frank sees them with the big crate. At that point, Fake Locke was already on the main Island traipsing around with Richard and Ben.

[danterner]

Between Jacob and Faux Locke- which one is The Bad Twin?

Ooh, nice!

I read it when it came out, and I remember being somewhat disappointed at how tangential it seemed to everything. As I recall, at the time it came out the name "Widmore" wasn't really being used much on Lost yet. I think it had been seen on a tube of toothpaste on the show, and on the side of a building, but that was about it. To have the novel focus on Widmores seemed like a letdown. Maybe I should go back and reread it now.

[bruinfan]

any insight on the book jacob was reading when locke fell out of the window?

[Shakhari]

Horace(sp?) built the cabin.

Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm

I guessed that it was Locke in the box when they made such a big deal about showing Frank, but not showing us.

The fade to white at the end reminded me of the Sopranos finale in reverse.

My only complaint about this is that Radzinsky didn't die. Radzinsky must die. Killing Phil is not enough.

[crowfan]

any insight on the book jacob was reading when locke fell out of the window?It was Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge. It's already on Wikipedia. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_That_Rises_Must_Converge

I read it in high school but don't remember it much. :(

[DevdogAZ]

Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm
What do you mean Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time. Bernard and Rose were in 1977, not 2004.
My only complaint about this is that Radzinsky didn't die. Radzinsky must die. Killing Phil is not enough.
But we know that Radzinsky doesn't die yet. He mans the hatch for many years until he commits suicide.

[aindik]

Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm

I guessed that it was Locke in the box when they made such a big deal about showing Frank, but not showing us.

The fade to white at the end reminded me of the Sopranos finale in reverse.

My only complaint about this is that Radzinsky didn't die. Radzinsky must die. Killing Phil is not enough.

If "whatever happened happened," then Radzinsky ends up in the hatch pressing the button every 108 minutes until he decides, some time in the mid 1990s, to shoot himself in the head.

[3D]

But I don't think they'd found the body at that point. The first time we're aware of them knowing about the body is when Frank sees them with the big crate. At that point, Fake Locke was already on the main Island traipsing around with Richard and Ben.

This would explain their change in attitude. They were basically freaking out when they saw that the dead body was the same person who had been hanging around their camp. On further reflection, however, I'm not sure if this line of thinking works. I thought that Locke had even told them that he was the one who had been in the coffin.

Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.

I keep coming back to this and it's import. The only reason Locke left the island with a willingness to die is because of the exchange with Richard, which was set-up by faux Locke. I'm too lazy to even try thinking it all the way through, but maybe someone with a better memory for the chronology of events can clear this up: Is there any way it can be argued that faux Locke actually created a loop whereby he was the one who put the idea in Richard's head that Locke was supposed to be the leader of the Others (maybe posing as Jacob, maybe posing as Locke)? We know that the real Locke traveled back to 1954 and planted the idea in Richard's head, but Locke only thought of himself as the leader because Richard told him so. Where did the idea orginally come from? Did Ben make it up (i.e., tell Richard that Jacob told him that Locke would be the next leader when we know that Ben never really spoke to Jacob) Alternatively, is it all just circular?

I think it's important that Richard told Jack that both times he visited Locke off of the island, he failed to see anything special. We saw Locke fail the test that Richard gave him when he was a boy. I think it's very likely that Locke was never meant to lead the others, but faux Locke just made it look that way so that he would be invited into Jacob' house.

I also think that Jacob is one step ahead of bsg and it will turn out that he is not really dead. Jeff Jensen over at ew.com has an interesting theory buried in a pretty lengthy article, which I will put tags around for those who don't want to know anything about the final Harry Potter book:

Similar to what we find out in HP7 that Voldemort did, Jacob was giving the Losties a piece of his soul by touching them. Right after Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob told bsg, "they're coming", which seemed to piss off bsg so much that he threw him in the fire. Jacob was referring to the other Losties, who are now on a path to all wind up on the island and resurrect Jacob (who maintained at the beginning of the episode that each time around progress is made).

[Fleegle]

If "whatever happened happened," then Radzinsky ends up in the hatch pressing the button every 108 minutes until he decides, some time in the mid 1990s, to shoot himself in the head.

That's my thought. We've already seen "Whatever happened, happened" with Pierre Chang getting his arm crushed.

[whitson77]

It was Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge. It's already on Wikipedia. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_That_Rises_Must_Converge

I read it in high school but don't remember it much. :(

It is a collection of short stories. All with religious themes of grace, and things being predetermined which fits with Jacobs MO. Grace is also usually found through pain and suffering. That's pretty central in all of her works.

[sonnik]

I do like the theory of Jacob's nemesis being the human incarnation of the smoke monster.

This may make the conversation


Jacob: Want some fish?

Nemesis: No thanks, I just ate.


...conversation make more sense.

For those who think the addition of these two characters puts this on a chart of "St. Elsewhere" - I'd have to say that we've really had these kind of themes all along...

Black/White (Locke with Backgammon pieces, for example). Left Eye/Right Eye...

Come to think of it, didn't Locke tell Walt that one of the two colors always go first?

Perhaps the inversed "Lost" logo at the end implies that we've left an era of "black" winning to an era where "white" wins.

Notice that the smoke monster never really bothered Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, or Sun. Even when Locke interfaced with it, Locke was safe. Perhaps Jacob was readying his "people" by touching them. Locke needed to be killed by a mortal force...

I think Jacob realized what needed to happen...

Also, faux Locke was never on screen at the same time as faux Alex, and we can assume that Smokey knows how to take the form of people, as Alex mysteriously appeared. Alex's message was pretty much "Do what [faux] Locke says."

[JYoung]

This would explain their change in attitude. They were basically freaking out when they saw that the dead body was the same person who had been hanging around their camp. On further reflection, however, I'm not sure if this line of thinking works. I thought that Locke had even told them that he was the one who had been in the coffin.




No he didn't.

Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.

The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.

[aindik]

No he didn't.

Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.

The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.

Cesar: Who's that?
Locke: He's the guy who killed me.

[3D]

No he didn't.

Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.

The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.

Ok, so I'm right; the discovery of Locke's body explains their change in attitude. :D

[JYoung]

Cesar: Who's that?
Locke: He's the guy who killed me.

Ok, but Cesar was suspicious and thought that Fake Locke was lying already.
Then he got offed by Ben shortly thereafter.

[Philosofy]

When this is all over, I hope there is a book or commentary about how the story evolved. We've been told that Jack was never meant to survive. Then what role would have taken the place of Jack? How much was figured out in the beginning? What had them scrambling? The series is fascinating, and the process of how it came to be is interesting also.

[astrohip]

Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.

Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?

[jlb]

.........I also think that Jacob is one step ahead of bsg and it will turn out that he is not really dead. Jeff Jensen over at ew.com has an interesting theory buried in a pretty lengthy article, which I will put tags around for those who don't want to know anything about the final Harry Potter book:

Similar to what we find out in HP7 that Voldemort did, Jacob was giving the Losties a piece of his soul by touching them. Right after Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob told bsg, "they're coming", which seemed to piss off bsg so much that he threw him in the fire. Jacob was referring to the other Losties, who are now on a path to all wind up on the island and resurrect Jacob (who maintained at the beginning of the episode that each time around progress is made).

Ooooh I like that idea.

[TAsunder]

Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.

Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?

Ben's not their leader anymore.

[danterner]

Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.

Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?

I think you're right. It definitely seems like the more we see of the Others, the more humanized and like Us they are. I remember in Season One, before the Others were seen on screen for the first time, my imagination ran rampant about what they could be: Were they even human? They were so mysterious. Now they don't seem very "Other" anymore at all.

[DreadPirateRob]

Plus, aren't many of the more hostile ones dead now as a result of the events at the end of last season (the ambush at the beach camp)?

[RandallW]

That's where the Losties found the OLD dynamite to blow the hatch to the Swan station. It's also where Sawyer killed Locke's father.

Brings the idea to the forefront of why Locke couldn't kill him himself... Maybe if people are related to one another (ie, Jacob and BSG/Esau, Locke/Father), they aren't allowed to kill each other on the island? But this would mean that Widmore and Ben would have to be related as well. =P

[unixadm]

That's my thought. We've already seen "Whatever happened, happened" with Pierre Chang getting his arm crushed.

Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.

Now....the bomb was detonated....that may change things from that point on.

If whatever happened, happened, then the very original timeline wouldn't have the Losties since they didn't exist yet...(or were little kids back then)...It wasn't until after 2008 when they started time traveling where they went back to 1977...every interaction after they travelled would have changed some event even if ever so slightly.....so unless you believe that everyone's life from now until eternity is pre-destined and that there are simultaneous timelines in life, there was no way that the Losties could have been in 1977 the FIRST time all of this happened......so I think that they did indeed change things by traveling back and doing what they did.....we shall see

[TAsunder]

Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.

Chang wouldn't have even been there though. He was not supposed to be at that station, as evidenced by radzinski's saying such.

[SocratesJohnson]

I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.


I don't know, I took it as Jacob just kept Locke from dying thereby putting him on his path of being bitter about being paralyzed which ultimately led him to the island.

[3D]

We never actually saw Richard watching the Losties die, as he indicated he had last week (I think he actually said that he saw them die 30 years ago). Is this evidence of things changing?

[aintnosin]

We never actually saw Richard watching the Losties die, as he indicated he had last week (I think he actually said that he saw them die 30 years ago). Is this evidence of things changing?
He probably saw the H-bomb go off. Not too big a leap to assume that anyone nearby is toast.

Of course, if he was witness to the explosion, that means detonating Jughead was part of the original time line.

[hefe]

He probably saw the H-bomb go off. Not too big a leap to assume that anyone nearby is toast.

Of course, if he was witness to the explosion, that means detonating Jughead was part of the original time line.

I'm assuming the blast/event/incident is what took the statue down, but we'll see...

[unicorngoddess]

I noticed this immediately, in fact I figured it was pretty obvious. It was a little bit different though, the ambient stuff (echoes, backwards sounds) wasn't there. There was certainly a similarity.


Most definately. In fact, it was so similar that I was sure whatever was going to happen with the drillng and the bomb was going to create the smoke monster and we would see him rise out of that hole and try to kill everyone.

[Fleegle]

Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.

Now....the bomb was detonated....that may change things from that point on.

If whatever happened, happened, then the very original timeline wouldn't have the Losties since they didn't exist yet...(or were little kids back then)...It wasn't until after 2008 when they started time traveling where they went back to 1977...every interaction after they travelled would have changed some event even if ever so slightly.....so unless you believe that everyone's life from now until eternity is pre-destined and that there are simultaneous timelines in life, there was no way that the Losties could have been in 1977 the FIRST time all of this happened......so I think that they did indeed change things by traveling back and doing what they did.....we shall see

You're thinking too chronologically. The adult versions of the Losties were always in 1977 as part of the Dharma Initiative. In 1977, they "blipped" into existence from the time jumping. In a linear fashion, the Lostie's lives ran along with chronological time up until the time jumping started, then settled back into 1977. That's teh entire point of "Whatever happened, happened".

[Fleegle]

As to the Smoke Monster, I think he is the guy talking to Jacob in the opening scene. I also think that it was him, not Jacob, in the cabin that asked Locke to help him.

[jkeegan]

Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.Yeah... but.... I mean there's this cute girl there that he's trying to sweet talk into stitching him up.. is he really going to tell the part of the story where he was completely embarrassed by his Dad in front of his whole team? No. He's going to tell her that he counted to five, conquered his fear, and saved the day.

[jkeegan]

(still on post #150.. sorry for any smeeks)

It just occurred to me that Not-Locke probably impersonated Ben's Mom too, to get him to leave the compound and come see Richard.. Richard asks the kid if he sees dead people, Ben says yes convincingly, and Richard believes Ben is special (when in fact he is not). That helps set in motion everything that led Ben to be trusted by Richard enough that Richard would lead him to the statue and let him in to see Richard (with Not-Locke's insistence).

[jkeegan]

Wasn't that in a vision, though? If so, I'm not sure that's necessarily what actually happened.It was a vision of Locke's, but it lead to Locke knowing to search the bodies in the Dharma grave, where he found a map (in Horace's pocket) that showed where the cabin was.

Plus, Locke's vision of Horace saying "Hello there!" sounded just like when we actually saw him. :D

[jkeegan]

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?There's an ancient hieroglyphic-ish picture of smokey in the temple - smokey's been around a long time.

[crowfan]

Grace is also usually found through pain and suffering.Maybe I was just remembering high school itself. :)

[Fleegle]

(still on post #150.. sorry for any smeeks)

It just occurred to me that Not-Locke probably impersonated Ben's Mom too, to get him to leave the compound and come see Richard.. Richard asks the kid if he sees dead people, Ben says yes convincingly, and Richard believes Ben is special (when in fact he is not). That helps set in motion everything that led Ben to be trusted by Richard enough that Richard would lead him to the statue and let him in to see Richard (with Not-Locke's insistence).

Yes, another dead person that Smokey has impersonated. But she didn't die on the island.

A thought that occurred to me: Could JACOB have been appearing to Hurley as the dead people? He seemed to go out of his way to tell him that seeing his dead friends was a good thing. Perhaps he was also Dave...

[hefe]

Yes, another dead person that Smokey has impersonated. But she didn't die on the island.

A thought that occurred to me: Could JACOB have been appearing to Hurley as the dead people? He seemed to go out of his way to tell him that seeing his dead friends was a good thing. Perhaps he was also Dave...

We've seen Jacob appearing to several people, but not disguising himself. For some reason, I get the impression that he is more straightforward, not the kind to deceive that way. Seems more in line with Titus from what we know so far.

[Fleegle]

Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?

[jradford]

Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?

I like Esau, personally. (No, there wasn't a name given.)

[Turtleboy]

On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,

Jacob's enemy was on the Island with Jacob when a ship appeared on the horizon. The man approached Jacob, who was sitting on the beach near the base of the statue. He claimed Jacob had brought the ship to the Island, saying that this would only end in fighting, destruction and corruption as it always had, a view with which Jacob disagreed. Before walking away, the man claimed that he wanted to kill Jacob and promised he would one day find a "loophole" allowing him to do so. it then shows the following picture

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:SuperDudes.jpg

It says that that scene happened in The Incident, but I have no memory of it whatsoever. Did I miss something?

[jradford]

On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,

it then shows the following picture

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:SuperDudes.jpg

It says that that scene happened in The Incident, but I have no memory of it whatsoever. Did I miss something?

That's the opening scene from last night.

[Fleegle]

I like Esau, personally. (No, there wasn't a name given.)

Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!

What does Esau refer to?

[Fleegle]

On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,

it then shows the following picture

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:SuperDudes.jpg

It says that that scene happened in The Incident, but I have no memory of it whatsoever. Did I miss something?

That's the opening scene from last night.

Right. That happened immediately after the "Previously, on Lost" segment, which was unexpectedly short... Maybe you fast-forwarded through it thinking it was was still part of the Previously On segment?

[stellie93]

What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.


Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?

In the beginning, BSG said he wanted to kill Jacob. I got the impression that Jacob could at any time kill HIM. God could always wipe out Satan, but he lets him go to give us free will. So Jacob gives him a list of conditions that have to be met to kill him. Probably it has to be one of his own people--someone close to him, and Ben qualifies because he has been trying to serve him all his life. And Jacob saved his life. But Jacob keeps Ben at arms length and waits for him to become more compassionate, which he doesn't and then it happens just as Jacob knew all along it would. I don't think he was surprised that Ben killed him. Either he's not really dead, spiritually, or it's part of his plan. If BSG gets all gleefull and thinks he's won, I think he'll be sorry.

[Turtleboy]

That's the opening scene from last night.

Wow, I can't believe I missed that! I started watching with young Kate in the store. Everything makes a little bit more sense now. :D

[hefe]

Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!

What does Esau refer to?

Esau is the Biblical brother of Jacob.

[Turtleboy]

Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!

What does Esau refer to?

Not a big bible reader I take it?

[hefe]

Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?

It's as good as any.

(It's the actor's name. ;))

[Fleegle]

Esau is the Biblical brother of Jacob.

Not a big bible reader I take it?

Heh. Pretty far from a big bible reader.

[Fleegle]

What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.




In the beginning, BSG said he wanted to kill Jacob. I got the impression that Jacob could at any time kill HIM. God could always wipe out Satan, but he lets him go to give us free will. So Jacob gives him a list of conditions that have to be met to kill him. Probably it has to be one of his own people--someone close to him, and Ben qualifies because he has been trying to serve him all his life. And Jacob saved his life. But Jacob keeps Ben at arms length and waits for him to become more compassionate, which he doesn't and then it happens just as Jacob knew all along it would. I don't think he was surprised that Ben killed him. Either he's not really dead, spiritually, or it's part of his plan. If BSG gets all gleefull and thinks he's won, I think he'll be sorry.

As for the Clueless Richard and how Richard didn't know that Jacob wasn't talking to Richard, Jacob WAS communicating with Ben through Richard. When Ben was going on his "Why not me" rant just before he killed Jacob, he mentioned Jacob using Richard to send him notes.

So Jacob WAS communicating with Ben indirectly, using Richard as a proxy.

[latrobe7]

I had heard in the podcast and in interviews with Matthew Fox and Michael Emerson that the finale was going to be a huge cliffhanger and that people would feel frustrated like at the end of season 1. I don't feel like that though; I think most fans are used to the cliffhanger MO at this point. I'm actually glad they've given us so much to chew on and mull over during the break. This is the last long break, after all!

Some first impressions of the finale:

Phil should have the got the beatdown that Sawyer gave to Jack - or better yet Radzinsky. And I was not satisfied with Phil's death. I thought it was too quick and kind of cheesy. It reminded me of Trinity's death in Matrix: Revolutions. Anything that reminds me of Revolutions can't be good.

Juliet's death was sad - even though I never really liked her. I was afraid it was going to get gruesome; like the chains would rip her in half, or her arm would break off a-la Montand. I felt sorry for Sawyer. I do think Juliet is dead.

Speaking of arms, I was also a little disappointed in what happened to Chang. His arm was crushed by scaffolding. Sure, it was related to "The Incident", but it might as well have been a mundane construction accident. I thought he was going to touch exotic matter and have his arm blink out of existence or something.

We still did not get an explanation for Miles' ability to speak to the dead - or Hurley's either; not to mention what's in the guitar case.

Why does Jacob live in a statue? And if he's got the statue to live in, why did he ever need the cabin? Illana's "good guys" clearly thought they'd find him there, so he must have used it at some point...

Rose and Bernard. That whole bit was lame, IMO. I sure hope they have a purpose in the story and that that purpose is NOT to be Adam & Eve.

But speaking of Adam and Eve; now that we're getting some more details about the Black/White roles on the show, the black and white stones that Jack found on the skeletons seem to have some significance - other than identifying who Adam and Eve are.

It seems that the statue was around at least as recently as when the Black Rock arrived on the Island. So what brought the statue down? I do not think it was the H-bomb because if it did that much damage the Dharma facilities would have been affected. So what brought down the statue and when... and was it intentional?

The Black Rock sailing to the Island would seem to shoot down my favorite theory of how it ended up in the middle of the jungle. I was a believer in the idea that the Island appeared or materialized under the Black Rock after someone turned the Donkey Wheel, but it does not look that way. So how did it get into the jungle? But maybe that ship wasn't the Black Rock...

[Fleegle]

I had heard in the podcast and in interviews with Matthew Fox and Michael Emerson that the finale was going to be a huge cliffhanger and that people would feel frustrated like at the end of season 1. I don't feel like that though; I think most fans are used to the cliffhanger MO at this point. I'm actually glad they've given us so much to chew on and mull over during the break. This is the last long break, after all!

Some first impressions of the finale:

Phil should have the got the beatdown that Sawyer gave to Jack - or better yet Radzinsky. And I was not satisfied with Phil's death. I thought it was too quick and kind of cheesy. It reminded me of Trinity's death in Matrix: Revolutions. Anything that reminds me of Revolutions can't be good.

Juliet's death was sad - even though I never really liked her. I was afraid it was going to get gruesome; like the chains would rip her in half, or her arm would break off a-la Montand. I felt sorry for Sawyer. I do think Juliet is dead.

Speaking of arms, I was also a little disappointed in what happened to Chang. His arm was crushed by scaffolding. Sure, it was related to "The Incident", but it might as well have been a mundane construction accident. I thought he was going to touch exotic matter and have his arm blink out of existence or something.

We still did not get an explanation for Miles' ability to speak to the dead - or Hurley's either; not to mention what's in the guitar case.

Why does Jacob live in a statue? And if he's got the statue to live in, why did he ever need the cabin? Illana's "good guys" clearly thought they'd find him there, so he must have used it at some point...

Rose and Bernard. That whole bit was lame, IMO. I sure hope they have a purpose in the story and that that purpose is NOT to be Adam & Eve.

But speaking of Adam and Eve; now that we're getting some more details about the Black/White roles on the show, the black and white stones that Jack found on the skeletons seem to have some significance - other than identifying who Adam and Eve are.

It seems that the statue was around at least as recently as when the Black Rock arrived on the Island. So what brought the statue down? I do not think it was the H-bomb because if it did that much damage the Dharma facilities would have been affected. So what brought down the statue and when... and was it intentional?

The Black Rock sailing to the Island would seem to shoot down my favorite theory of how it ended up in the middle of the jungle. I was a believer in the idea that the Island appeared or materialized under the Black Rock after someone turned the Donkey Wheel, but it does not look that way. So how did it get into the jungle? But maybe that ship wasn't the Black Rock...

See my previous posts regarding the cabin. I don't think that was Jacob's cabin. I believe that it was the unnamed man's cabin. The one was searching for a loophole to kill Jacob. The black ash was some kind of barrier to keep him contained.

[latrobe7]

See my previous posts regarding the cabin. I don't think that was Jacob's cabin. I believe that it was the unnamed man's cabin. The one was searching for a loophole to kill Jacob. The black ash was some kind of barrier to keep him contained.
I don't think it was just Anti-Jacob's cabin, though he was the most recent inhabitant. I believe Jacob was there at some point - if not, why did Illana expect to find Jacob there, and why did she say he had not been there for a long time (implying that he had been there at one time).

[hefe]

I don't know about the cabin and smokey angles. The ash circle was intact when Locke and Ben went there, wasn't it? And smokey had been making appearances before and after that. So how could it be Esau/Titus/Nemesis/BSG?

In fact, Ben summoned smokey when he needed it. Hmm. Much to be learned still.

[jkeegan]

At the very beginning of the episode we see Jacob literally weaving a tapestry. That's exactly what we find out that he and blackshirtguy have been doing with the Losties' lives..

[jkeegan]

(oh, and I was guessing that Hurley created the ash break when he saw the cabin)

[getreal]

Guess it as the scene was going on! Had to stop and explain the Adam/Eve reference to the wife.

What is the symbolism of the white background with the black Lost logo rather than the black background with the white Lost logo?

Trying to catch up on reading this thread, but I needed to comment.
The white screen clearly depicts the moment the nuke detonates, plus the black logo fading in plays along the whole black / white symbology, as well as a reversal from the regular --- possibly meaning that things reversed, or change in that moment.

[Rob Helmerichs]

What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.
I find it interesting. Once Ben was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, then the mysteries went above his pay grade and he became increasingly lost. (No pun intended, but hey, why not?) Then Richard was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, but now the mysteries are going above HIS pay grade. So now it's Jacob...is that where the buck stops?

[Fleegle]

I don't think it was just Anti-Jacob's cabin, though he was the most recent inhabitant. I believe Jacob was there at some point - if not, why did Illana expect to find Jacob there, and why did she say he had not been there for a long time (implying that he had been there at one time).

Did she actually say that she expected JACOB to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?

[Queue]

Did she actually say that she expected JACOB to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?

I think she expected Jacob. When she got to the cabin she was surprised and seemed sad that "someone else" had been living in it.

[latrobe7]

Did she actually say that she expected JACOB to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?

She said he was not here and that someone else had been using it. If he is not Jacob, who then? If you want that to be Anti-Jacob, then who is someone else?

I don't know what Illana and Bram made of the statue-needlepoint - but I don't think their reaction speaks to Jacob's relationship to the cabin, one way or the other.

[smak]

I think the key is "Locke" bringing Ben into visit Jacob.

Richard was against it, he said you aren't allowed to do that. Only the leader can see Jacob.

But the fact is that that isn't Locke, and Locke is dead. So either Ben is still the leader, or there is no leader.

Maybe the loophole has something to do with that.

Probably a smeek, but my two cents.

-smak-