Cox San Diego and SDV - Getting Through [Text View]

mcdowd

05-13-2009, 12:22 AM

Without any advance notice, Cox San Diego has apparently moved to SDV meaning I need a Tuning Adapter (TA) to get new channels.

My first call to Cox San Diego was less than successful. They informed me that I needed to dump my CableCard-M, which is working flawlessly, for one of their boxes. I told them there wasn't a chance of that happening.

I am waiting for a supervisor to call me back for more discussions. My question is, what is Cox legally obligated to provide?

It appears that 47 CFR 76.460 requires cable companies to provide virtual channel tables, which I understand to be TAs.

Has anyone else gone to war with their cable provider? If so, how did go?

Thanks.

Saxion

05-13-2009, 05:42 PM

Are you sure they've deployed SDV? Was that for North County, South County, or both?

I just called Cox South County and the 4 people I spoke with didn't have a clue what I was talking about (SDV).

mcdowd

05-13-2009, 07:32 PM

djwilso

05-13-2009, 07:51 PM

The trigger for this chain of events was Cox SC added Disney HD (752) on 5 May. Tivo updated its guide, but cannot pull down the channel.

Cox South County did not come out and confirm they had switched to SDV (too few of them even know what it is), but the customer service rep, who did her best, did confirm that my CableCard would not support new channels and that I needed a cable box to receive them. Sounds like SDV to me since everything else is working just fine.

I will continue to update this thread until the issue is resolved.Are you certain that the new channel added is SDV?

The reason that I ask this is that Cox here in Phoenix recently added Comedy Central HD on channel 751. The channel was added to the TiVo Guide prior to the channel's launch, which is really the only reason I knew it was coming.

From my understanding, this channel is slowly becoming available in Phoenix on an area by area basis, and it is not an SDV channel since it is unavailable in my area even though I have a known-working Tuning Adapter and can get all of the other SDV channels.

When I tune to this channel, I receive a message saying that the channel is not provided by the Tuning Adapter, but I know that others are getting it from reading the AVS forum. Maybe this is the same as your situation.

Just something to think about. Good luck getting it all sorted out.

MichaelMI

05-13-2009, 10:04 PM

I am in Santee, South County Cox and I am getting 752 (Disney) fine on my cable cards through my Tivo boxes.

mcdowd

05-13-2009, 10:09 PM

I am in Santee, South County Cox and I am getting 752 (Disney) fine on my cable cards through my Tivo boxes.

This is a great data point. Did you do anything to your Tivo?

BTW, I am in Poway.

mcdowd

05-13-2009, 10:14 PM

Are you certain that the new channel added is SDV?

The reason that I ask this is that Cox here in Phoenix recently added Comedy Central HD on channel 751. The channel was added to the TiVo Guide prior to the channel's launch, which is really the only reason I knew it was coming.

From my understanding, this channel is slowly becoming available in Phoenix on an area by area basis, and it is not an SDV channel since it is unavailable in my area even though I have a known-working Tuning Adapter and can get all of the other SDV channels.

When I tune to this channel, I receive a message saying that the channel is not provided by the Tuning Adapter, but I know that others are getting it from reading the AVS forum. Maybe this is the same as your situation.

Just something to think about. Good luck getting it all sorted out.

I am not certain the new channel is SDV. I jumped to the SDV conclusion based on Cox's lame initial response, the lack of a new channel and Cox's less than stellar approach to rolling out SDV. Also, Cox confirmed the new Disney HD was added on 5 May.

I am hoping someone at Cox will confirm SDV for me. Your comment about Cox rolling out SDV area by area and might explain why the poster from Santee gets Disney HD and I (Poway) don't.

Cox has been good to me so I will give them a chance. Time will tell.

mcdowd

05-13-2009, 10:41 PM

My wife just came home and told me that Cox left a message earlier stating that they believe my CableCard is not capable of receiving the recently added channels. They are sending someone out tomorrow to install a new card.

Let's see what happens.

NSX

05-14-2009, 01:59 AM

I'm also in the Cox South County service area and can receive 752 OK as well. :up:

tomhayes

05-14-2009, 02:14 AM

tomhayes

05-14-2009, 04:14 PM

I called Cox to get a cablecard installed (happening this Staurday) and I asked if I needed anything or SDV. The operator said that HDV is not being used yes in San Diego and they'd let all CableCard owners know about it .

rhain

05-14-2009, 04:31 PM

I live in Escondido and last month had an installer out for an 'Updating Cable Card Firmware' issue and we were having troubles getting the card to work and I asked him about SDV.

This person was some what knowledable and was surprised I knew about it. His response is that they are currently testing it but he did not have a time frame as to when they would be deploying.

It did not sound like it was going to be anytime too soon.

My two cents.

MichaelMI

05-14-2009, 09:59 PM

This is a great data point. Did you do anything to your Tivo?

BTW, I am in Poway.

Nope!

mxfanatic

05-15-2009, 12:24 PM

I just called my brother in Poway and he said "DISNHDP on 752 comes in great. Handly Manny is on now". He has a TivoHD with Cox. Good luck! I hope this is resolved shortly for you. I know that he has done nothing special to get it either.

mcdowd

05-16-2009, 09:15 AM

The first Cox tech they sent out didn't know it was a CableCard job and came unprepared. After calling all over town he couldn't find one and rescheduled us for the next day.

The "next day" came and two CableCards later the problem was solved. DisneyHD is now a great member of the family.

Cox did a great job.:up: And, the installer confirmed no SDV in town yet.

mcdowd

05-16-2009, 09:21 AM

I'm thinking of buying a TiVO tomorrow and switching to Cox from Dish.

This, or a lot of copy protected channels, might affect my decision.

Are they protecting a lot of channels that shouldn't (in your opinion) be protected? (sorry for off-topic, but this thread seems to have people in the know)

This problem is solved and Cox gets high marks for helping to make it right.

I glanced at some of the shows last night and it looked like about 1/2 of the handful I looked at were copy protected.

It doesn't matter to me since my recorded shows live on my TIVO HD. Any shows that I copy for personal viewing come off my trusty TIVO Series 2, where I have had not issues with copy protection.

Out of curiosity, how does copy protection impact you?

tomhayes

05-16-2009, 01:08 PM

This problem is solved and Cox gets high marks for helping to make it right.

I glanced at some of the shows last night and it looked like about 1/2 of the handful I looked at were copy protected.

Out of curiosity, how does copy protection impact you?

I want to be able to shift shows onto my iPhone for viewing outside of the house. If too much content is protected I'll likely cancel Cox, return the TIVO and just download *illegal* torrents.

I'm *trying* to do the "right thing" but this copy protection nonsense is crazy. Protect PPV, but let me shift everything else to my other device.

I guess that's the choice now - pay hundreds of dollars a month and be restricted, or break the law, view the shows how you want to view them, and save the money for a legal defense.

And they wonder why people are using torrents?

mikeyts

05-16-2009, 02:04 PM

I want to be able to shift shows onto my iPhone for viewing outside of the house. If too much content is protected I'll likely cancel Cox, return the TIVO and just download *illegal* torrents.Well, you'd better get ready to return that TiVo. Back when I lived in Cox they copy protected all of their SD digital simulcast, which is what you get with CableCARDs (TWC maps CableCARD devices to the analog versions of those channels which typically have no copy protection on them). Curiously, only about half of the HD channels were copy protected: I couldn't move the standard def broadcast of Battlestar Galactica recorded from Sci Fi off the unit (pre Sci Fi HD), but I could move a recording of the same program as recorded on UHD. That was over a year ago and the situation may have changed.

Forum member sinanju complained to Comcast about their use of copy protection and pushed it through to upper management, getting what was supposed to be a Comcast-wide ban on the use of copy protection flags on non-PPV channels except where explicitly requested by the content provider (HBO/Cinemax does request the use of flags, and probably all of the other premium content providers would too, if it became an issue). Comcast's observance of that rule is spotty.

You can check for the use of copy protection on a channel by tuning that channel and going to TiVo Central->Account & System Information->DVR Diagnostics; find the label "Channel:" followed by the channel number that you're interested in. Several lines beneath that, you'll find the label "CCI Byte:". The value will be 0x00 for "Copy Freely", 0x02 for "Copy One Generation", 0x03 for Copy Never (which cannot be used on anything other than PPV or VOD); 0x01 is "Copy No More", which should be seen on a broadcast.

FCC regs allow cable providers to set copy protection on everything except the core basic tier, but they don't require their use. Find out who your local franchising agency is and appeal to them, sending a copy of that appeal to management of your cable system. It's worth a try. (sinanju used the argument that Cable in the Classroom explicitly permits copying and archiving of some of their programming and use of copy protection on those channels thwarts the intent of the copyright holder--see this (http://www.ciconline.org/copyright)).

Of course, the IP holders' solution would be for you to go to Amazon (or someplace like it) and buy a download of the program.

tomhayes

05-16-2009, 03:16 PM

Of course, the IP holders' solution would be for you to go to Amazon (or someplace like it) and buy a download of the program.

Then why would I subscribe to cable?

mikeyts

05-16-2009, 03:33 PM

Then why would I subscribe to cable?To watch things that you have no interest in archiving or owning a copy of. Exactly what percentage of what you record or watch do you think that you'd copy for watching on your iPod?

The reason why the FCC allows these protections is that the Supreme Court's decision allowing people to record television was created to allow timeshifting of content, not "placeshifting" or archiving. Being able to make a single copy on your DVR satisfies that (if you used a removable media, like a D-VHS tape, you'd have some ability to place shift the recording as well).

I personally don't have any interest in archiving or placeshifting--when TTG came to the Series3, I started saving a season of a couple of my favorite shows before deciding that it wasn't worth the trouble or the huge amount of storage space.

Again, you can fight this (which isn't guaranteed to get you anywhere), or return your TiVo, drop your cable service and start watching television legally by buying episode downloads or illegally through torrents. Your choice.

tomhayes

05-16-2009, 03:59 PM

To watch things that you have no interest in archiving or owning a copy of. Exactly what percentage of what you record or watch do you think that you'd copy for watching on your iPod?

The reason why the FCC allows these protections is that the Supreme Court's decision allowing people to record television was created to allow timeshifting of content, not "placeshifting" or archiving. Being able to make a single copy on your DVR satisfies that (if you used a removable media, like a D-VHS tape, you'd have some ability to place shift the recording as well).

I personally don't have any interest in archiving or placeshifting--when TTG came to the Series3, I started saving a season of a couple of my favorite shows before deciding that it wasn't worth the trouble or the huge amount of storage space.

Again, you can fight this (which isn't guaranteed to get you anywhere), or return your TiVo, drop your cable service and start watching television legally by buying episode downloads or illegally through torrents. Your choice.

Yeah, I just got Cox hooked up. Out of the everything I recorded as a test (usa, bet, uhd,vh1,aetv,pld,mtv,kpbs,hbo, wswb) only two are not copyrighted.

So I'll be paying $110 a month total to get TV + Tivo and I'll be able to transfer about 5% of the programs if I choose.

I can't watch Psych on my computer from the Tivo?? Really?? MTV's Cribs is too valuable to allow it to be transferred? You can't even use the I in IP on Cribs.

Maybe Tivo2Go shouldn't even be shown as a feature anymore since most of the channels disallow this function.:down::down::down: (That's the correct amount of thumbs down in Tivo isn't it?)

nrc

05-16-2009, 04:07 PM

Maybe Tivo2Go shouldn't even be shown as a feature anymore since most of the channels disallow this function.:down::down::down: (That's the correct amount of thumbs down in Tivo isn't it?)For many of us TTG works just fine and there are few if any channels protected. It's a cable provider issue, not a TiVo issue.

mikeyts

05-16-2009, 05:19 PM

Yeah, I just got Cox hooked up. Out of the everything I recorded as a test (usa, bet, uhd,vh1,aetv,pld,mtv,kpbs,hbo, wswb) only two are not copyrighted.That's "copy protected", not "copyrighted". 99.9% of everything on television is copyrighted. (I assume that you meant "KSWB" by "wswb" and that it and KPBS are the only things in that list not protected--they can't put copy protection on rebroadcast over-the-air channels). Even if things changed, HBO is going to be copy-protected, because they explicit want that. But I agree--you should be able to copy the rest of that stuff around. I personally think that the FCC should change the rules, forbidding copy protection of anything (other than the use of "Copy Never" on PPV and VOD) unless the content provider requests it, which is the rule that Comcast supposedly adopted.
Maybe Tivo2Go shouldn't even be shown as a feature anymore since most of the channels disallow this function.:down::down::down: (That's the correct amount of thumbs down in Tivo isn't it?)It's not TiVo's fault--you can use TTG to copy off anything that the service providers allow. As nrc points out, some cable systems don't put copy protections on much of anything: Verizon's FiOS service apparently doesn't use it all, which is nice for those lucky few who can get it :rolleyes:.

If nothing else, you can always copy rebroadcast OTA stuff off. In my case, that makes up the vast majority of what I watch. So TTG is hardly useless for everyone.

tomhayes

05-16-2009, 07:18 PM

That's "copy protected", not "copyrighted". 99.9% of everything on television is copyrighted. (I assume that you meant "KSWB" by "wswb" and that it and KPBS are the only things in that list not protected--they can't put copy protection on rebroadcast over-the-air channels). Even if things changed, HBO is going to be copy-protected, because they explicit want that. But I agree--you should be able to copy the rest of that stuff around. I personally think that the FCC should change the rules, forbidding copy protection of anything (other than the use of "Copy Never" on PPV and VOD) unless the content provider requests it, which is the rule that Comcast supposedly adopted.
It's not TiVo's fault--you can use TTG to copy off anything that the service providers allow. As nrc points out, some cable systems don't put copy protections on much of anything: Verizon's FiOS service apparently doesn't use it all, which is nice for those lucky few who can get it :rolleyes:.

If nothing else, you can always copy rebroadcast OTA stuff off. In my case, that makes up the vast majority of what I watch. So TTG is hardly useless for everyone.
Trust me, if I could get FIOS I'd have it. I'm moving to Cox because, frankly, it's cheaper than Dish is. The Tivo2Go was the feature that really pushed me over to Cox though.

I'm going to make a chart and post it off all the channels that are flagged as "copyright" in iTivo and post it. Maybe we could have a contest to see who has the most restrictive cable system.

AndyLen

06-09-2009, 02:35 AM

Any luck with the chart posting all the channels that are flagged as "copyright" in iTivo? That would be helpful.

I also have Cox South San Diego. I'm very disappointed with how many channels are copy protected.

I noticed something very interesting/strange tonight. I have one HD Tivo using two single stream cable cards, and one using one multi stream cable card. There were multiple channels (for example CW-6) in which the CCI-byte was 0x02 on the multi stream box and it was 0x00 on the single stream box!

Has anyone experienced the same thing? I'm not sure that it is because of the difference in cable cards, but it's the only think I can think of.

If I can confirm it, I will be calling Cox to replace the multi stream cable card with two single stream cards...

mikeyts

06-09-2009, 04:49 AM

I'm fairly certain that you don't have a choice in flavor of CableCARD and that none of the providers buys S-Cards anymore. You might be able to make someone understand what it is that you want, who can find two working S-Cards.

It's interesting, though, if true. When I lived in a Cox neighborhood, they mapped the digital simulcast of their analog channels to CableCARD-using devices; all of the digital simulcast is copy protected. With the rebroadcast local channels, you'd have the strange situation of the standard definition version being copy protected and the high definition version being in the clear (as required by FCC regs). Of course the rebroadcast analog version wasn't copy protected, but you couldn't touch those with a CC equipped TiVo.

Did you try actually recording CW-6 on the box that says it's not copy protected and checking to see if the recording were marked as copy protected?

AndyLen

06-09-2009, 12:03 PM

Yes I recorded one show on the "single stream" box on channel 6 where the CCI-byte was 0x00, and it was not copy protected. I recorded the same show on channel 6 on the "multi-stream" box with the 0x02 byte, and it was copy protected. Again, I can't say for sure that it's the cards that are the difference, but it's the only thing I can think of.

I just checked the CCI-byte on channels 703-710 (ESPN, Channel 4 Padres, + local stations) on both boxes. On the "multi-stream" box, only channels 707-710 were not copy protected; however, on the "single stream" box, channels 703-710 were not copy protected.

At least for me, the CCI-byte for channels 1-99 seem to be matching their counterpart HD 7xx channels. So it appears they have at least fixed that anomaly.

If Cox doesn't allow me to choose whether I have single stream or multi-stream cable cards, I'm going to just keep setting up service appointments until the technician happens to have single stream cards. It might take me a while, but once I'm able to replace the multi-stream card I will post another message letting everyone know if this changes it to match my current "single stream" box in the number of non-copy protected channels...

AndyLen

06-09-2009, 12:16 PM

One addition/modification to my previous post...

The CCI-byte on the SD vs. HD channels do not match on both boxes. I just checked and found the following:

"Single stream" box:
Channel 6: CCI-byte = 0x00
Channel 706: CCI-byte = 0x00

"Multi-stream" box:
Channel 6: CCI-byte = 0x02 - copy protected
Channel 706: CCI-byte = 0x00

So it appears the "multi-stream" box is experiencing what mikeyts alluded to below where I have the situation of the standard definition version being copy protected and the high definition version being in the clear.

I guess I just need to make sure I'm recording on the HD 7xx version of the channel on the "multi-stream" box and I should be good to go. Thanks for pointing that out mikeyts!

Weird!!!

mikeyts

06-09-2009, 02:27 PM

One last question, Andy--what does it say in the diags for "Frequency" and "Modulation" for channel 6 on each of the boxes? (Actually, I'm probably only interested in modulation). I'm wondering if the box with no copy protection might be mapping the analog version of the channel.

Sounds as though there might be a bug in those S-Cards wherein they're not reporting the copy protection encoded on some streams to TiVo. If so, they're precious--take good care of them :D. Even if you can find another couple of S-Cards, they're not guaranteed to contain that bug.

BTW, if they can prove that there's nothing wrong that's thier fault (and your inability to copy recordings off of your TiVo isn't something they'll consider to be a problem), they can charge you for service calls, to the tune of $60 a pop (when last I looked--could be more now).So it appears the "multi-stream" box is experiencing what mikeyts alluded to below where I have the situation of the standard definition version being copy protected and the high definition version being in the clear.That's the situation that I'd expect to see. Technically they can validly copy protect most of the standard-def stuff, since they're only forbidden to copy protect rebroadcasts of over-the-air transmissions and that digital standard definition form isn't broadcast--it's only available from the cable companies and possibly satellite services. I believe that KNSD and a few others still have analog broadcasts up, but only some of the broadcasts out of Mexico will be available in analog form after Thursday (including XETV channel 6, the station we've been discussing).

The situation is also complicated by the FCC's requiring the cable systems to continue broadcasting an analog version of the local channels for a few years.

I'm living in a TWC neighborhood now, where they do use SDV, and I notice that they're mapping the digital forms of the basic and extended basic tiers to my CableCARDs with the Tuning Adapter attached; if I detach the TA, I get the analog forms. I checked, and the standard def digital versions of the local broadcasts aren't copy protected (the extended basic stuff is, of course :rolleyes:). Though the diags don't show it, I'll bet that the analog versions of the extended basic channels have analog copy protection applied, which TiVo detects and obeys, as the DMCA dictates.

I have to move soon (my housemate wants to rent rooms to friends who don't want to share a house with a man :rolleyes:). I'm hoping to land in a Cox neighborhood again--they have AMC HD and Comedy HD, which TWC doesn't. The last time I lived in Cox, about half of the HD expanded basic and digital tier stuff wasn't copy protected. They may have changed since.

AndyLen

06-10-2009, 01:21 AM

I checked both the "multi-stream" and "single stream" boxes, and they have the same frequency and modulation.
Example: Channel6 - 579000 KHz - QAM 256
The "multi-stream" box has CCI byte 0x02, and the "single stream" box has CCI byte 0x00.

I really appreciate all the insight you provided. It sounds like I just got really lucky with my "buggy" single stream cable cards! I just wish that they didn't report the copy protection on more channels. :cool: It seems that they are just leaving off the copy protection on the broadcast local channels. So weird! I agree that it's not worth the time and potentially money to have Cox come out and replace my multi-stream card. It probably wouldn't make any difference.

So far all the non-broadcast HD channels I've checked are all copy protected. However, I've only checked a few so far. I'll re-post if I find that some of the HD channels aren't copy protected.

Thanks again for your help...and good luck with the move!

mikeyts

06-10-2009, 01:56 PM

It seems that they are just leaving off the copy protection on the broadcast local channels. So weird!That actually makes sense, and it's the situation with the SD digital channels on TWC (which I get with the TA attached). There is little primetime broadcasting in SD anymore (and there'll be even less, come Friday), but cable has been directed by the FCC to keep providing it for a while, in support of the many millions of legacy 4:3 televisions still in use. Logically, digital SD forms of stuff in "limited" basic cable shouldn't be copy protected, since FCC regs forbid applying copy protection to direct rebroadcasts of the over-the-air channels, but SD digital versions of those over-the-air channels aren't addressed in the regs as yet (unless that's been added very recently).

Most cable providers have taken the tact that if they're allowed to encrypt and copy protect stuff, that's what they'll do, whether it makes sense or not. Their paranoia over cable theft is extreme :rolleyes:.

AndyLen

06-11-2009, 12:10 PM

What's so weird is how my "multi-stream" box has the digital SD versions of the broadcast channels copy protected, but on my "single stream" box all the SD versions of the broadcast channels are not copy protected. :confused:

I guess I just won't question it and I'll be content that at least one of my boxes allows me to record non-copy protected SD shows such as Seinfeld on the SD channels. Otherwise, I would have to record them on the HD channels in order to get non-copy protected content, which takes up ~3-4x the HDD space.

mikeyts

06-11-2009, 01:29 PM

What's so weird is how my "multi-stream" box has the digital SD versions of the broadcast channels copy protected, but on my "single stream" box all the SD versions of the broadcast channels are not copy protected. :confused:If the only channels not copy protected on your Series3 are the broadcast ones, it might actually be that the M-Card has a bug (or that TiVo HD has a bug with M-Cards, though I'd think I'd have heard of that). Swapping that card out might fix it, but it'll probably cost you a service charge whether it does or not, since TWC won't consider it a problem that they're responsible for fixing. (They might be wrong about that, since FCC regs require that the CableCARDs that they provide be standards compliant; good luck with that argument :)).

AndyLen

06-12-2009, 11:43 AM

Thanks Mike. Could you tell me what other channels you might expect to not be copy protected?

So far, I do not think I have found any non copy protected channels other than the broadcast channels (on both my "single stream" and "multi-stream" boxes). Since it takes some time to tune in the channel and then go into the settings to check the CCI byte, it would be good to have a starting point for the channels that you would expect to have a 0x00 CCI byte. Thanks!

mikeyts

06-12-2009, 03:43 PM

As I recall, only half of the expanded basic HD channels were copy protected when I lived in Oceanside 18 months back. I remember making a remark in some forum about how funny it was that crappy SD digital recordings of Sci Fi (now available in HD, but not then) couldn't be copied off, but recordings of the same program in HD with good PQ from Universal HD could be copied off. So UHD was definitely one that was not copy protected at the time. They may well have tightened things up since then.

rrr22777

05-21-2010, 07:07 PM

New Tivo owner with Cox Orange county here with CCI byte set to 0x05. The installer has put in a adapter along with the cablecard but I am unable to record season passes. Is someone able to view channels that are on SDV without the adapter?

RESOLVED: Resolved after clear and delete everything. Clear program information & To Do list did not resolve the issue.

chrislemasters

10-04-2010, 01:49 PM

Sorry to open an old thread - any word (or prediction) on whether COX will loosen its copy protection policy now that a TIVO partnership is in the works? Multi Room Viewing is important to some customers (and possible via COX's new DVR, which is not yet available in San Diego) - the current COX copy protection flag policy will keep those shiny new cross-promoted Premieres from MRV'ing the vast majority of content.

Just curious (and very hopeful)

wtkflhn

10-06-2010, 07:32 PM