Series 2 future?

[guy_jin]

So the more recent Series 2 models (one of which I have) only work with Analog Cable - because the FCC wanted them to include an ATSC tuner along with the NTSC one after a certain date.

Once the digital transition is complete, will TiVo start putting ATSC tuners in S2s? or are the S2s going to be phased out, making the HD TiVo the new basic model?

[bkdtv]

The digital transition won't be complete for several years. That said, you can expect the TivoHD or a future Series4 to be the new basic model.

[guy_jin]

The digital transition won't be complete for several years.

Really? :confused: I knew some low power stations were still going to be broadcasting, but I figured they'd only be up until they could get digital facilities (i.e. not long)

[bkdtv]

Really? :confused: I knew some low power stations were still going to be broadcasting, but I figured they'd only be up until they could get digital facilities (i.e. not long)I was referring to the fact that cable companies will continue with analog channels for several years.

The TivoHD is already the standard TiVo for anyone that wants to use an antenna.

[tootal2]

So the more recent Series 2 models (one of which I have) only work with Analog Cable - because the FCC wanted them to include an ATSC tuner along with the NTSC one after a certain date.

Once the digital transition is complete, will TiVo start putting ATSC tuners in S2s? or are the S2s going to be phased out, making the HD TiVo the new basic model?

I use my s2 all the time. It works fine with my digital cable box. Its also a lifetime tivo.

[RonDawg]

It doesn't really make financial sense for TiVo to spend more money to add built-in ATSC capability to the Series 2, when the Series 3 models already have it but on a newer platform with greater capabilities (MPEG-4, eSATA expansion), and most Series 2 units can be made ATSC-compatible using a compatible external tuner.

S2's should still be available for some time for those who must use an external tuner.

[samo]

It may be a sad reality for S2 owners, but SD TV will shortly become a thing of the past just like BW TV did. I realised that when last week I had to put 32 inch SD SONY (that still had a very good picture) at the curb. Guys who delivered my new 65 inch Sharp LCD did not want to take my SONY for free!
I still have one SD TV left and I still use couple of R10s DirectTivos once in a while, but 90% of what I watch is HD. It wouldn't be long before everything will be available in HD and there will no use for SD TVs and SD DVRs.

[ZeoTiVo]

I am on extended basic cable from TWC. - all channels in analog and I have 5 S2 TiVo DVRs in full swing. One even serves content to my BIL in Switzerland via Sling. I can MRV all shows all around the house and easily convert them for portable play or burn to DVD for in the van on road trips.

SD is Far, far from over.

That said I also have 2 TiVo HDs in play and doing OTA on one for HD. So both ways are still pretty viable. Plus with a cable box a Series 2 can record HD from the cable box on a composite or svideo input as SD and the picture is pretty good.

I also have 2 converter boxes (used my 2 FED coupons) for the series 2 so my kids can do free OTA with a DVR when they move on. I have 2 ToshiVos that will live on with basic service.

Will I move on to HD? Sure that is the future and I plan to call TWC soon on the 2 year lock plan to see what they have to offer if I get cable cards. I already have a triple play and thus one cable box I get free - that is hooked up to an S2 and I record Sci-fi and some other shows in digital on that.

Bottom line - the S2 is not the base development model for TiVo anymore and they likely do not manufacture many now and that will likely drop off to 0.
Still, there is still lots of play left in Series 2 if you are not looking to get HD, and lots of content in SD still.

[Grandpasteve]

It may be a sad reality for S2 owners, but SD TV will shortly become a thing of the past just like BW TV did. I realised that when last week I had to put 32 inch SD SONY (that still had a very good picture) at the curb. Guys who delivered my new 65 inch Sharp LCD did not want to take my SONY for free!
I still have one SD TV left and I still use couple of R10s DirectTivos once in a while, but 90% of what I watch is HD. It wouldn't be long before everything will be available in HD and there will no use for SD TVs and SD DVRs.

I hardly think SDTV is a thing of the past. I don't see any reason yet to get rid of my 36" WEGA, it still rocks and an HDTV that gives me the same size picture is too big diagonally to fit in the corner where I want it. HDTV prices, while much more reasonable then they used to be, are still more than I would pay for a TV (The WEGA was purchased used at a fraction of it's new price and is still an awesome set). Most content is still SD, and most channels I have season passes on are the major 4 networks, and I will get them analog for a long time. Even though I have a digital cable converter on each of my 3 tvs, it is mostly not necessary for my 2 S2DT Tivos.

[guy_jin]

Yeah, I think SDTV is going to be around for a while. Consider that local broadcasters (who your local cable company is obliged to carry) get to transmit 1 HD channel and up to 4 SD channels at once. (if they forgo HD entirely, they get even more.) They're going to do this sooner or later, since they get to sell more ads that way. And your local cable co. has to carry them.

[techmonkey]

Series 2 will be working for a long time as long as you have a digital cable box/adapter.

[atmuscarella]

Last time I looked there was an estimated 75million + SDTVs still in use and Walmart still sells new ones.

Series 2 TiVos will be useful for along time they work with digital Satellite boxes, digital cable boxes, unscrambled analog cable, and most single tuner Series 2 also work with digital OTA converter boxes.

That said I believe there is very little future for new SD Series 2 Tivos and do not believe the existing one will be updated.

If they added the ability to record from digital Satellite and cable boxes to the TiVo HD the Series 2 could be dropped now.

Thanks,

[classicsat]

IMHO, the Series 2 platform as we know it is finished. The Series 2 DT is the last box, and will be made as long as parts are available, or becomes irrelevant in the marketplace.
The very most they could do is release a tunerless Series 2 that has only A/V inputs, which would be a Series 2 DT without the tuner modules, associated components, and second encoder. That is if parts will still be available. There would be almost no development costs in that. I would sooner bet in it getting discontinued.

The next best thing is to leverage the TiVo HD platform into a space filler for the Series 2, in a model I call the Series 2 Digital, or a TiVo SD Plus. The platform supposedly has the capability of supporting an SD set-top-box just like a Series 2. The HD capabilities could be disabled, possibly with a service key so you could pay to enable HD afterwards.

[ZeoTiVo]

The next best thing is to leverage the TiVo HD platform into a space filler for the Series 2, in a model I call the Series 2 Digital, or a TiVo SD Plus. The platform supposedly has the capability of supporting an SD set-top-box just like a Series 2. The HD capabilities could be disabled, possibly with a service key so you could pay to enable HD afterwards.

why? I can hook a TiVo HD up to analog cable and it works just fine. If digital is what you want instead - then get a cable card.

The only thing missing is satellite and DirectTV is covered now and will have an HD TiVo coverage soon.

That leaves DISH but with decent DVRs available why would you try and hook up a 3rd party just to get SD only - so the market there is not big at all - the Series 2 in circulation would more than take care of the need there - why compete for that?

[guy_jin]

The very most they could do is release a tunerless Series 2 that has only A/V inputs, which would be a Series 2 DT without the tuner modules, associated components, and second encoder. That is if parts will still be available. There would be almost no development costs in that.

That sounds kinda tasty as a budget model. As long as it has ir blaster codes for every cable box, satellite box, and converter box in existence.

That leaves DISH but with decent DVRs available why would you try and hook up a 3rd party just to get SD only - so the market there is not big at all

Well, if it were a budget model, it wouldn't be that much of an expense, and besides, considering their recent loss of market share, they need to get all they can.

[Dan203]

As someone else pointed out S2s (and S1s) will continue to work forever as long as there are converter boxes.

However I think the DT functionality of the S2DT is in trouble. The DT functionality only works with direct connected analog cable, not with two converter boxes. So as cable companies start moving more and more of their channels to the digital block the DT functionality will become less and less useful. Most cable companies will probably keep a small subset of channels analog for a while, but eventually everything will move to digital as it's more efficient and allows them to offer more channels and better VOD. (you can fit 3 HD or 10+ digital SD channels in the same bandwidth required for 1 analog channel)

That being said I think that the next generation TiVo will probably have all the functionality of the S3/HD units with the cost benefits of the S2 units and will actually replace both platforms, so this wont be an issue for much longer anyway.

Dan

[classicsat]

why? I can hook a TiVo HD up to analog cable and it works just fine. If digital is what you want instead - then get a cable card.

It is for non cable/OTA digital services that require a box. That would be, for now, IPTV, satellite, and the few providers not yet offering cablecard. In other words, people that have a service that the Series 3 platform as it currently is cannot support.

The only thing missing is satellite and DirectTV is covered now and will have an HD TiVo coverage soon.

That leaves DISH but with decent DVRs available why would you try and hook up a 3rd party just to get SD only - so the market there is not big at all - the Series 2 in circulation would more than take care of the need there - why compete for that?

This isn't about HD, it is about continuing the basic function of a Series 2 (SD A/V in with IR blaster or serial control), in the event the Series 2s go out of production, but still have a market for the aforementioned market that the Series 3 does not support.

[classicsat]

That sounds kinda tasty as a budget model. As long as it has ir blaster codes for every cable box, satellite box, and converter box in existence.


It won't have all the codes, just one applicable to legitimate services in the marketplace the DVR is sold in/for. Practically, it will have the IRDB Series 1s/2s have now, and have codes added as needed.

[MichaelK]

It is for non cable/OTA digital services that require a box. That would be, for now, IPTV, satellite, and the few providers not yet offering cablecard. In other words, people that have a service that the Series 3 platform as it currently is cannot support.

... .

serious question-

is that market segment worth the effort of keeping a different model in production?

i dont know the answer.

back when i paid attention I think DISH had like 10% of the households in the US? And what does IPTV, BUD, and the tiny cable company's that aren't required to have cablecards cover? Another 2-3 percent combined?

Everyone else has big cable, FIOS, OTA, or Directv.

so is it worth the cash outlay, warehouseing, stock keeping, and all those related costs to bother to produce the S2 for a smaller fraction of the marketplace? That's the magic question- isn't it?

I wouldn't have a clue- anyone with some background care to venture a gues?


(hmmm... - is ATT's Uverse sizable?)

[Dan203]

It's funny I just commented on this on Thursday and the very next day my friend called me for help getting his S2DT working again because his cable company told he that he now needed a box. Apparently his cable company made a switch and now all channels except 2-13 are digital only and require a box. Prior to this he had been using the TiVo for 2+ years with just analog cable so he was use to being able to record any two things on his 50+ stations. When I told him that now he could only record/watch two things at once if one of those things was on 2-13 he wasn't very happy. In fact his exact words were "Why the hell am I paying $13 a month for this thing then?". I told him about the TiVo HD, but he wasn't too thrilled about having to paying $250 + $13/mo + whatever his cable company charges for CableCARDs when he can just get a cable DVR for $14/mo. He said he's going to try to live with the S2DT for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the TiVo and ordered a cable company DVR instead.

Dan

[MichaelK]

It's funny I just commented on this on Thursday and the very next day my friend called me for help getting his S2DT working again because his cable company told he that he now needed a box. Apparently his cable company made a switch and now all channels except 2-13 are digital only and require a box. Prior to this he had been using the TiVo for 2+ years with just analog cable so he was use to being able to record any two things on his 50+ stations. When I told him that now he could only record/watch two things at once if one of those things was on 2-13 he wasn't very happy. In fact his exact words were "Why the hell am I paying $13 a month for this thing then?". I told him about the TiVo HD, but he wasn't too thrilled about having to paying $250 + $13/mo + whatever his cable company charges for CableCARDs when he can just get a cable DVR for $14/mo. He said he's going to try to live with the S2DT for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the TiVo and ordered a cable company DVR instead.

Dan


Dan - if he is your friend- make sure you help him run the math before he rents a cable dvr. Might be cheaper. Might not. Might be just a few bucks more a month for tivo compared to cable.

also- you should probably tell him to try the links for an tivo HD for $0 or $50. maybe he's one of the lucky one's with that option- if so he'd be sitting pretty.

[Yuterald]

A question for everyone that 'the more i read, the more confused i get': I have an S2 that I want to use in a guest house that has cable (but no cable box) and with Comcast moving everything to digital - will i 'have' to get a cable box or will the 'free' digital converter box keep my S2 functioning/working for the digital stations?

[CuriousMark]

A question for everyone that 'the more i read, the more confused i get': I have an S2 that I want to use in a guest house that has cable (but no cable box) and with Comcast moving everything to digital - will i 'have' to get a cable box or will the 'free' digital converter box keep my S2 functioning/working for the digital stations?
Assuming it is a single tuner S2, then yes it will work fine with the free box from Comcast.

[Yuterald]

Assuming it is a single tuner S2, then yes it will work fine with the free box from Comcast.

"free" box from comcast? IS comcast offering a 'free' box or are you referring to the 'free tv converter box' that the Gov't is subsidizing?
Thanks!

[MichaelK]

if comcast goes all digital in an area they offer 2 free super basic STB's that allow you to get the former analog channels. They can not handle encrypted content, ppv, vod, epg, or much of anything besides converting extended basic from digital to an analog output to a tv or a tivo.

[gslater]

"free" box from comcast? IS comcast offering a 'free' box or are you referring to the 'free tv converter box' that the Gov't is subsidizing?
Thanks!

Comcast is apparently doing its best to confuse everyone. Completely SEPARATE from the govt-mandated switch, Comcast is, in many/most markets, changing its transmission of many channels to a digital-only format. Here in the Portland area, channels below 32 are still available as analog cable, but anything above that now requires either a Comcast set-top box or a DTA converter box to receive the channel. In my case, they offer one full set-top box (which can do all the fancy stuff like On Demand) AND two of the DTAs (which can't) for free.

[timckelley]

All 3 of my TiVos are lifetimed, and 2 or those 3 are single tuner analog S2s. That would be really annoying if those two went away on me. I hope I get a lot more use out of them.

[Dan203]

also- you should probably tell him to try the links for an tivo HD for $0 or $50. maybe he's one of the lucky one's with that option- if so he'd be sitting pretty.

What links? I must have missed this one

Dan

[MichaelK]

here's the thread about it:
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=424961

[scandia101]

Assuming it is a single tuner S2, then yes it will work fine with the free box from Comcast.

"free" box from comcast? IS comcast offering a 'free' box or are you referring to the 'free tv converter box' that the Gov't is subsidizing?
Thanks!

Why would Comcast (a cable tv provider) be handing out free boxes for OTA tv reception?

[Yuterald]

Why would Comcast (a cable tv provider) be handing out free boxes for OTA tv reception?

I'm referring to using cable without a cable box.

[scandia101]

I'm referring to using cable without a cable box.

You were asking if someone meant a cable box or a gov't subsidized OTA digital converter box when the said "free box from Comcast" as if you believed that some else thought that Comcast could be handing out OTA converter boxes. If you understood the reality of it, you wouldn't need the clarification you asked for.

But nice try.

[Yuterald]

You were asking if someone meant a cable box or a gov't subsidized OTA digital converter box when the said "free box from Comcast" as if you believed that some else thought that Comcast could be handing out OTA converter boxes. If you understood the reality of it, you wouldn't need the clarification you asked for.

But nice try.

Do you troll for arguments? I was clarifying whether or not comcast provided a 'box' that was NOT the free gov't OTA converter ones.