9 Years with Tivo .. Now defecting

[riekl]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi. My current TivoHD is actually slower then that first gen Tivo 9 years ago, theres just no excuse to be so painful to navigating around the interface (not to mention not updating the interface after 9 years !) Tivo was a pioneer and birthed an entire industry but how can they stagnate so badly and expect to grow ?

The new Moxi's are pretty slick and worth taking a look at, Thumbs up !

[steve614]

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=413204

Reading the cons would make me think twice.

[scandia101]

Great, thanks for letting us know. It just won't be the same without you and we really do appreciate the heads up on needing to remove you from the list. You'd be surprised by the number of people who cancel their sub's without letting us know and we're left in limbo having to wonder what the heck is going on with them.

Thanks again and good-bye.

[jeepguy_1980]

Bye

[deandashl]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi. My current TivoHD is actually slower then that first gen Tivo 9 years ago, theres just no excuse to be so painful to navigating around the interface (not to mention not updating the interface after 9 years !) Tivo was a pioneer and birthed an entire industry but how can they stagnate so badly and expect to grow ?

The new Moxi's are pretty slick and worth taking a look at, Thumbs up !

Given up on what?

TiVo Search just came out, most advanced search in the industry BY FAR and IN HD.

Yes, a new HD UI is needed, and SHOULD have come out a few years ago, but it is getting close.

TiVo STILL considered the best DVR by most.

I finally gave up on a Comcast DVR, you should have been on that leaky boat for four years - TiVo runs circles. My Comcast DVR had less updates in FOUR YEARS than my TiVo HD XL has in three weeks.

Most options, features, capability, reliability in the industry.

MOXI's interface is slick and incomplete. Company is.....hopefully on the ball.

I wish MOXI the best of luck, competition is good and better awareness of third party DVR's is good for everyone.

[innocentfreak]

Here is one review...moxi-hd-review-beats-cable-but-it-aint-tivo (http://gizmodo.com/5231626/moxi-hd-review-beats-cable-but-it-aint-tivo)

[Joe01880]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi.

You'll Be Back!

[Nascar]

You'll Be Back!

I'm sure but not with the same name. ;)

[bkdtv]

Here's a comparison I posted in another thread:

Moxi Advantages


Being a newer product, the hardware is based on newer technology (i.e. faster DVR CPU)


In of itself, this means little. But Moxi developers have more CPU cycles and memory bandwidth to work with when adding new features.


16:9 HD menus (as opposed to a 4:3 menus on a 16:9 HD background)


The Moxi UI has crisper, sharper text and graphics in the menus. In some cases, it takes advantage of the 16:9 aspect ratio to show more information on the screen.


No advertising whatsoever in the UI.


Fast guide scrolling / scanning.


1.5 hour HD buffer per tuner (compared to 30 minutes for TiVo)


Can record three cable channels at the same time (two digital, one analog) when the free WinTV-HVR-1950 (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1950.html) USB tuner is connected.


Moxi is looking into the possibility of supporting triple-tuner functionality on digital channels using the WinTV-HVR-1950 (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1950.html) USB tuner.


QAM channel mapping through a web interface to fully support HD locals on cable -- with program information-- without the need for a CableCard.


DLNA 1.0 client support allows access to music. photos, and videos on computers, network attached storage, mobile phones, and other devices without proprietary software.


Moxi includes a free license to "PlayOn" DLNA software for Windows, which allows you to watch Netflix, Hulu, CBS, YouTube, CNN, and ESPN Internet feeds from the PC through the Moxi;

Windows 7 has DLNA server functionality built-in, so you'll be able to right-click on a music or video file on your Windows 7 PC, select "Play to Moxi" from the pop-up menu, and that music or video file will begin playing on the Moxi.

Moxi is currently working to add DLNA 2.0 capability with DTCP-IP encryption. This will allow the Moxi to stream recordings throughout the home to other DLNA 2.0 compliant devices that support DTCP-IP encryption.


Conflict management allows you to choose which of the two conflicting programs you would like to skip. You aren't limited to skipping the lower priority program.


Storage expansion works with any external eSATA drive up to 2.0TB, not just the My DVR Expander (500GB, 1TB).


External drives can be added and removed at will to archive recordings; recordings are not split across internal and external drives, so recordings are not lost when a drive is removed.


Adjustable duration on skip button (30 seconds, 3 minutes, etc).


Ability to display a small guide at bottom of the screen.


Picture window on every menu screen that shows the current liveTV channel and/or current recording.


On-screen widgets for weather, sports scores, stock quotes, etc, updated in real time.


Online scheduling with real time conflict resolution.


You can edit / delete recordings online.


Includes backlit remote (included with TivoHD XL, but a $50 option on TivoHD)


Moxi Disadvantages


$799 @ Amazon.com with lifetime service and 500GB drive; there is no option to purchase for less with monthly or yearly fees


No ATSC (OTA) support; the Moxi is cable only;


No support for SDV channels on cable -- Moxi expects to add that capability this summer;


No built-in support for analog channels; customers must request a free USB device (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1950.html) to add a single analog tuner to the box;


Cannot download or transfer recordings to a computer; cannot view DVR recordings on a computer;


No support for multi-room viewing;


Later this year, Moxi plans to add multi-room viewing between Moxi DVRs and MoxiMate extenders. Unlike the current implementation of MRV on the TiVo, there will be no restrictions on what recordings can be streamed from one room to another, thanks to the use of DTCP-IP encryption.


No wishlists or comparable functionality (can't record based on search);


You cannot setup a single recording to record all new games with your favorite team, regardless of date, time, and channel. You cannot create a single recording to record all new pilots and season premieres. You cannot create a single recording for all new HD movies in a particular genre. You cannot create a recording for a future program not yet listed in the guide, whenever and wherever it shows.


No overlap protection, so 1-2 minute program overlaps cause conflicts that can result in missed recordings;


Many networks run their programs 1-2 minutes past the hour, and this creates conflicts with programs on other networks. TiVo clips off 1-2 minutes from the lowest-priority conflicting program so it still gets recorded, whereas Moxi cancels the recording for the conflicting program.


Does not keep a record of recorded programs to prevent re-recording the same programs after they are deleted from the DVR;


Does not remember the position on the inactive tuner. You can't pause one tuner, switch to a different tuner, and then resume where you left off; the inactive tuner always switches to liveTV;


Lacks "traditional" grid-based program guide.


Moxi's guide is similar to the default "TiVo-style" guide in that it only shows upcoming programs for the currently selected channel. Moxi presents this information in much more graphical way, with quick access to content filters, but they actually show less upcoming program information on the screen (three upcoming timeslots, compared to eight timeslots on TiVo).
There is no option to use a traditional grid-based guide instead, as you can on the TiVo.


No manual recording screen. You can only create recordings from the program guide or by selecting a search result.


When you stop or finish a recording, the Moxi always displays a liveTV window, even when that is a recording-in-progress (such as a sporting event); there is no way to exit a recording without seeing the liveTV window;


If the user is recording a sports event to watch later, or to watch on a delay to skip commercials, the viewing experience is "spoiled" because the user sees the score before they've started to watch the recording. This behavior is detrimental to sports viewing, but sporting events aren't the only programs affected; key plot developments in movies and series may be revealed before the user has the opportunity to watch the recording. That is not the desired behavior -- it acts as a built-in spoiler.
When you finish watching a recorded program, the liveTV video window should always default to whatever channel is not recording. If two programs are recording, then display a black video window with a message, "Two recordings in progress. Press the LiveTV button to display the picture." If Moxi wishes to preserve the existing behavior for some users, then it should add this as an option in global settings.


No option to use a phone line for guide downloads; a network connection is required, using a direct run of ethernet cable, a wireless bridge, a powerline adapter, or a MoCA adapter.


Has only one CableCard slot, so a M-CARD is required for both tuners to function with digital cable. If your cable provider doesn't have M-CARDs available, then you won't get dual-tuner functionality.


No support for Netflix's HD; only supports Netflix SD, and only does so when a Windows PC is on and running the PlayOn software;


No support for Amazon Unbox's HDTV VOD service with series and movies downloads in 1080p24 with DD5.1 ($4.99 per HD movie, $2.99 per HD episode).


Auto-correction on FF / REW not as accurate as TiVo (subjective)


Moxi assumes that the user has faster reflexes, so it provides less auto-correction than TiVo.


Interface not as intuitive (subjective)

Be sure to let us know your own thoughts after spending a few weeks with the Moxi. They have a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so you don't have much to lose.

I'm surprised you find the TivoHD painfully slow. I shared the same opinion of the original TiVo software, but I find the current 11.0 software quite responsive in the menus, navigation, guide, etc. The VOD menu and the network-based "TiVo Search" that run remotely from TiVo's servers are definitely sluggish, but those aren't functions I use on a regular basis.

If by slow, you mean the number of clicks to perform certain tasks, Moxi is not an improvement in that area. If anything, Moxi requires more clicks.

[techmonkey]

Good Luck, take care.

[janry]

Adios.

[ZeoTiVo]

the heads up on needing to remove you from the list.

I would just put a pencil line through it so it can be erased later;)

[riekl]

I've been here since the very begining. I appreciate those with constructive feedback instead of the 'dont let the door hit you on the ass' sarcastic remarks.

Tivo is great, it did great things, it built an industry. But it has not kept up with the times. Key reasons I'm getting the Moxi :

* Quick and intuitive to use filters, blows away Tivo's filtering. Finding just HD content, just movies, just science fiction, so much easier with Moxi to find what is 'on' in the mass of 872349 channels.

* Super fast interface and guide. The guide and interface actually keep up with you ! No more "click" *wait* "click" *wait* page down *wait*.

* Guide in picture and picture in guide/menu. It is helpful to be able to to do this, I don't know hy Tivo didnt do this 8 years ago it is certainly not new technology by DTV receivers in 2000 did it.

* Remote viewing, despite the above comment it is live now if you have 2 moxi box's just like if you have 2 tivo hd's and will soon have the cheaper extender allowing me to stream my kids programming to his bedroom without running wiring (long live wireless networks).

* Hulu support !! Free PlayON is a big benefit.

* No need for an external drive or hacking comes with the space you need.

* 3 hour buffer. Too often .. and i mean .. weekly i turn the tv on and see a movie that is 50 minutes into it that looks cool but .. oh i can't see the begining oh well move on.

The Tivo excels in many ways .. It has just continually disapointed me with how slow they are to release new features.

[magnus]

Slow, my ass.

[bkdtv]

* Quick and intuitive to use filters, blows away Tivo's filtering. Finding just HD content, just movies, just science fiction, so much easier with Moxi to find what is 'on' in the mass of 872349 channels.Moxi definitely has superior filters, but those guide filters are really oriented toward liveTV. Moxi's guide actually shows less information than TiVo; like the default "TiVo Live" guide, it only shows upcoming programs on the currently selected channel, and it shows just three timeslots compared to eight for TiVo. There is no option to display upcoming programs on multiple channels at the same time.

No question, Moxi is the superior box when it comes to liveTV viewing. Many of its features are designed to improve the liveTV viewing experience.

* Remote viewing, despite the above comment it is live now if you have 2 moxi box's just like if you have 2 tivo hd's and will soon have the cheaper extender allowing me to stream my kids programming to his bedroom without running wiring (long live wireless networks). I got the information in the post above from Moxi.

Here's an email I got from info@moxi.com on Friday:

Apologies that our FAQ wasn’t clear and we will fix that. We plan to introduce multi-room HD DVR functionality this year; soon you will be able to use your Moxi for multi-room viewing. While your Moxi HD DVR does not yet have the multi-room functionality, the great news is that when we release this new feature, the corresponding software upgrade to your main DVR will occur automatically and at no cost! Recordings would be streamed over your home networks for instant access.

If you wanted to get started today though, you could also buy a second Moxi HD DVR – one for each room – and when we introduce the multi-room software upgrade, the two Moxi’s will work together in the same manner to be able to share content between one another, or with “Moxi Mates” when we introduce them. Content recorded, even premium copy-protected shows will be able to be streamed from the Moxi HD DVR to another Moxi HD DVR or Moxi Mate with complete transport control to pause, rewind and fast-forward.

[Adam1115]

Moxi wouldn't work for me...

Does Moxi support clear QAM guide though...?

[nrc]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi. My current TivoHD is actually slower then that first gen Tivo 9 years ago,

That's not my experience at all. I started with a 14 hour Series 1 and now have a Series 3 and there's no question that the S3 is more responsive.

Good luck to you. I'm happy that TiVo has some direct competition again. They need some competition to help control the ad blight. My only problem with Moxi is that some of their statements about Tivo are... creative?

[westside_guy]

I'll tell ya, some of the neatest Series 3 "features" are actually free third-party add-ons taking advantage of the HME functionality built into the Tivo HD. Streambaby and pyTivo ROCK! It's a lot easier to navigate through a list of movies and TV shows than to try and find one DVD that may be anywhere on one of three shelves in our living room. :D

I'll be curious to see if any sort of developer community grows up around the Moxi (although with that price point, I don't quite think there's going to be... even if it's technically possible).

[bkdtv]

Does Moxi support clear QAM guide though...?Yes, it does.

You map your Clear QAM channels to the appropriate numbers through the Moxi web site and those changes are reflected during the guide data download.

I'll be curious to see if any sort of developer community grows up around the Moxi (although with that price point, I don't quite think there's going to be... even if it's technically possible).One of Moxi's key advantages is DLNA support. This is the industry standard for sharing pictures, music, and video content. The Moxi's built-in DLNA client can access (stream) music, pictures, and videos from any device -- PCs, Macs, NAS drives, mobile phones with WiFi, etc --- running DLNA server software.

Windows 7 has built-in DLNA server support so no extra software is needed to share pictures, music, and videos with the Moxi. In Windows 7, you'll be able to right-click on a video or music file, select "Play to Moxi" from the popup menu, and the file will start playing on the Moxi. Or you can access your PC's media folders and subfolders directly from the Moxi.

Yes, TiVo's standard isn't proprietary in the sense that anyone can develop for it. But it is proprietary in the sense that no one else uses it. Dozens upon dozens of vendors -- including Microsoft and Intel -- have standardized on DLNA.

Products without DLNA have no future as multimedia devices in the home. If TiVo has any sense at all, they are working on DLNA now and/or planning it for an update before January 2010, when the final version of Windows 7 is released to the public.

[Morfious]

Tivo is proven Moxi is not. I wouldn't be so quick to jump ship. Good luck to you if you do however.

[mattack]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi. My current TivoHD is actually slower then that first gen Tivo 9 years ago, theres just no excuse to be so painful to navigating around the interface (not to

I use a series 1 along with my Tivo HD & S3 every day.

In no way is the S1 faster than the TivoHD.

S1 is slow
* bringing up Now playing (especially noticeable if you have an expanded hard drive -- I wait AT LEAST 20-30 seconds every time it has to go back to Now Playing if it has 'done something' in the meantime..)
* when scheduling a recording, you wait TENS of seconds for it to figure out if it can record (and as someone else posted here long ago, you know beforehand if it will succeed or fail because one of the icons moves a few pixels before the conflict dialog comes up)
* Season Pass manager.. be prepared to wait for MANY MINUTES when rearranging things. It seems to be at most a minute or two on S3/TivoHD, usually much less.

The one thing that I can think of *better* on the S1 is this:
When you have two abutting recordings (e.g. 8-8:30, 8:30-9) on the same channel, there is VERY little missed between the recordings.. you can usually have closed captioning figure out what you missed in the gap.. With S3, much more is left out.

[westside_guy]

Products without DLNA have no future as multimedia devices in the home. If TiVo has any sense at all, they are working on DLNA now and/or planning it for an update before January 2010, when the final version of Windows 7 is released to the public.

Uh... no, I don't believe that to be true. DLNA has been developed and driven for the purpose of digital rights management enforcement - it's mainly for the benefit of the content providers, not the consumers. It's the typical industry-driven approach of doing something bass-ackwards. Rather than starting from "people want to share their videos, photos, and music - how can we enable that?", this approach starts with "we've failed to stop people from sharing their videos, photos, and music - what other approach can we try to use to reign this in?"

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Microsoft made the choice - starting with Vista - to jump fully into bed with the large media conglomerates rather than rediscover a desire to develop products that are consumer-driven.

[bkdtv]

Uh... no, I don't believe that to be true. DLNA has been developed and driven for the purpose of digital rights management enforcement - it's mainly for the benefit of the content providers, not the consumers. It's the typical industry-driven approach of doing something bass-ackwards. Rather than starting from "people want to share their videos, photos, and music - how can we enable that?", this approach starts with "we've failed to stop people from sharing their videos, photos, and music - what other approach can we try to use to reign this in?"DLNA provides the best of both worlds. It allows unprotected sharing and protected sharing.

You are certainly correct that DLNA 2.0 adds digital rights management -- specifically, DTCP-IP. This enables devices to securely stream content around the home. I don't think Windows 7 supports DLNA 2.0 out-of-the-box, but perhaps it could with a future update.

If Microsoft implements DLNA 2.0 (DTCP-IP support) and Moxi implements DLNA 2.0 server (with DTCP-IP) support as promised, then you would be able to securely stream recordings from the Moxi to Windows 7. You wouldn't be able download or copy the recordings to your computer -- Moxi has no intention of adding that -- but at least you'd be able to view them from your computer. Now, obviously, you lose out on the ability to archive recordings, burn them to DVD, copy them to your portable media player, etc.

There is at least some hope for TiVo users in this area, because this is the approach DirecTV has opted to take. TiVo is developing its next-generation DirecTivo as we speak, with the product expected around the end of the year. If DirecTV requires TiVo to implement this functionality for that product, then that effort could carry over to the TivoHD/Series3 and/or a new standalone TiVo. If TiVo does not implement this feature on the DirecTiVo, then that product won't be competitive with the media server functionality on DirecTV's own DVRs, because there's no way DirecTV (being owned by Liberty Media) will allow unprotected downloads of many cable channels.

[98clru]

Given up on what?

MOXI's interface is slick and incomplete. Company is.....hopefully on the ball.

I wish MOXI the best of luck, competition is good and better awareness of third party DVR's is good for everyone.

I find the timing on this post ironic. I did lots of research looking for the most cost effective means of a simple, reliable means to avoid the tyranny and unreliability of the local cable. I had dishnet until 2 years or so ago and loved it. The dish dvr was fast, user friendly and had a 10 day guide. Trouble is it required a dish and I live in Florida. When I asked what wind speed rating properly installed dish should be removed in the event of an impending hurricane I got no answer. When I removed it I discovered the dish wasn't properly installed.

I got a good deal from the cable company to come back. The Scientific atlanta 8300hd was a decent unit, guide good for 3 days until you requested and got an update which would max out in 6 days total. The update would would take forever and be lost overnight so you get to do the same update/wait cycle everyday. Cable increase $15 / mo in 2 years. New firmware crippled the dvr.

I was ecstatic at the thought of the dish dtvpal dvr with no subscription fees. I know I loved the dishnet dvr, and this is a dishnet dvr that doesn't require a dish. This meant I didn't have to do a homebrew dvr to avoid extravagant programming fees. Poor implementation meant delays. While doing research on improvements I read a review somewhere that the tivo hd had OTA capabilities and was willing to stand behind it's quality with a trial satisfaction guarantee and a yearlong parts warranty. Then I found out about Netflix streaming in a format I can picture my wife loving.

I never considered a tivo until 2 weeks ago. Now I have 2 tivo hd and am thrilled overall. Are the complaints about it's limitations valid? Definitely.

Moxie avoided installing an OTA receiver. I cannot fathom that. I guess in their world cable never goes out. Or they think if it does you can watch your recordings. In '04 when we go hit by three hurricanes in a month many people didn't get their cable back for a month after their power. Some people might want to watch the news if their cable is out and use the expensive dvr to make sure they don't miss anything important.

Dish has a $20 unit you can add to the hd dvr for a dual tuner for OTA. I'm guessing they aren't making much on it but I'm sure they aren't losing much. If moxie had a dual ATSC tuner I might not have bought a tivo. A company with so much on the ball missed out on a golden opportunity.

Is the tivo hd perfect? Far from it. I do hope tivo continues to improve it.
Engadget put it well in it's article yesterday: Ten years of TiVo: how far we haven't come.

If tivo did an informercial on broadcast tv they would have plenty of buyers like myself who can afford the cost of cable or satellite they choose not to, but are willing to pay a rather high price one time to avoid cable. My investment in the first tivo hd with a lifetime sub will be about the same as the moxie but is only 7 months of what I have been paying for an inferior cable dvr with 2 or three channels I can't get over the air but can get the programs I care about via hulu or netflix. Tivo at least did the tuners on the tivo hd right!

I expect broadcast importance to diminish each year with more and more programming available via broadband. So far tivo is overall the leader in the broadband broadcast convergence.

I wish the original poster luck and that the moxie is all he hopes it will be. Unfortunately they left out the one bigg thing I hoped it would include.

[riekl]

I expect broadcast importance to diminish each year with more and more programming available via broadband. So far tivo is overall the leader in the broadband broadcast convergence.


Actually .. not even a close call on this point. Moxi has far more broadband convergence options thanks to PlayNow. With Tivo you can do Netflix and Amazon, both pay services. With Moxi's PlayNow support you can play pretty much ANYTHING that streams over the web not the least of which is Hulu which is the largest provider at this point.

[xboard07]

some overly sensitive Tivo people here..no need to get your knickers in a twist

[ZeoTiVo]

Actually .. not even a close call on this point. Moxi has far more broadband convergence options thanks to PlayNow. With Tivo you can do Netflix and Amazon, both pay services. With Moxi's PlayNow support you can play pretty much ANYTHING that streams over the web not the least of which is Hulu which is the largest provider at this point.

yes - I agree on wanting Hulu support

but oddly for a box that is geard toward Digital cable ony - the netflix and Amazon are only in SD via PlayOn. I use Hulu a good bit in my home office PC but the quality of Hulu is less than SD even.

So TiVo is ahead on HD for Netflix and Amazon with its native implementation. Has anyone use playOn for getting shows from say ABC.COM - is that a good picture quality?

[ZeoTiVo]

* 3 hour buffer. Too often .. and i mean .. weekly i turn the tv on and see a movie that is 50 minutes into it that looks cool but .. oh i can't see the begining oh well move on.

I put a 1 TB drive in my TiVo HD for a little more than 100$ and a Sunday afternoon. Now I have two wish lists to record Action movies and Sci-Fi movies. I often turn on my TiVo and find it is already recording the movie in progress or I can pick from 30 movie titles as to which one I want to see. I have never understood the request for a longer Live Buffer on a Device I use to record shows. YMMV

[aaronwt]

The one thing that I can think of *better* on the S1 is this:
When you have two abutting recordings (e.g. 8-8:30, 8:30-9) on the same channel, there is VERY little missed between the recordings.. you can usually have closed captioning figure out what you missed in the gap.. With S3, much more is left out.

Huh?
On my boxes nothing is missed, zero. One recording ends and the next recording starts at the exact moment that the first recording ended. There is never any gap on any of my seven boxes.

This happens on a regular basis. It will switch to the new recording during the previews for a show, so Ihave to go to the next recording and I never miss anything. It always starts at the exact moment the previous recording ended.

Are you sure you aren't having an HDMI issue which would make you miss a second or two until any handshake issues are resolved?

[aaronwt]

Actually .. not even a close call on this point. Moxi has far more broadband convergence options thanks to PlayNow. With Tivo you can do Netflix and Amazon, both pay services. With Moxi's PlayNow support you can play pretty much ANYTHING that streams over the web not the least of which is Hulu which is the largest provider at this point.

Most of PLAYON is SD though. I have no desire to stream SD.

[WizarDru]

Good Luck. Competition is good for Tivo and Moxi both. But as it is now, the Moxi has several immediate disqualifies for me. No MRV? Big. No wishlists or history of recorded programs? Also Big. Some nice advantages over TiVo, but a lot of TiVo features that are important to me are noticably absent, which makes it a no-go for me.

[timckelley]

No question, Moxi is the superior box when it comes to liveTV viewing. Many of its features are designed to improve the liveTV viewing experience.

For me personally, I'm the opposite of this marketing target. I watch zero live TV, and am generally unaware of when shows are showing. In fact, I rarely use the guide. I just use the search features to find shows that are interesting and put them in my To Do List. Or I use the WishLists and SP manager.

[jlb]

The only things I like about the Moxi over the TiVo, and neither really concerns me all that much, is QAM support without CCs and more flexibility with external storage. The rest is all smoke and mirrors.

[Dan203]

When you stop or finish a recording, the Moxi always displays a liveTV window, even when that is a recording-in-progress (such as a sporting event); there is no way to exit a recording without seeing the liveTV window;

I had a Moxi based DVR through my cable company back before the S3 TiVo existed and this was my #1 pet peeve. That stupid little window in the corner of the main UI ruined more programs for me. And worse there wasn't even a way to leave the Moxi paused on a show from the recording list so you could avoid seeing the live channel when returning to the Moxi. Even if you left it paused on a recording it would time out to live TV so when you came back that little window would be there to ruin whatever was recording.

I know some people have advocated getting a similar feature on TiVo, but if TiVo ever does add such a feature I really hope they add an off switch.

Dan

[fyodor]

After 9 years with a Tivo (started in Jan of 2000) I have finnaly given up and defected to Moxi. My current TivoHD is actually slower then that first gen Tivo 9 years ago, theres just no excuse to be so painful to navigating around the interface (not to mention not updating the interface after 9 years !) Tivo was a pioneer and birthed an entire industry but how can they stagnate so badly and expect to grow ?

The new Moxi's are pretty slick and worth taking a look at, Thumbs up !

Have you considered a CableCard PC? You can get them for under $1000 bucks on ebay. If you're going to be throwing out $800 for a Moxi, you might as well get something more fully featured.

[mpastreich]

...
Moxie avoided installing an OTA receiver. I cannot fathom that. I guess in their world cable never goes out. Or they think if it does you can watch your recordings. In '04 when we go hit by three hurricanes in a month many people didn't get their cable back for a month after their power. Some people might want to watch the news if their cable is out and use the expensive dvr to make sure they don't miss anything important.

...

I expect broadcast importance to diminish each year with more and more programming available via broadband. So far tivo is overall the leader in the broadband broadcast convergence.


I can't understand not installing an OTA receiver either.

There are some areas where cable is not an option
Emergency broadcasts often use OTA
Cable has gone in $$$ so much, that more people are looking for "cheap" alternatives. This comined with the Digital TV transition means more people being able to get a clear signal ... for FREE. I imagine that price alone might get people to ditch Cable. (Here, you can save $1200 a year and only have to spend $800 up front. Oh, and the picture will usually be even crisper/clearer than Cable.)


Supplement OTA with a cheap broadband connection for streaming video and you can get killer options (over broadband with mediocre picture quality), great service (OTA with killer picture quality) and a drastically reduced monthly bill. I expect this is actually where we're headed (with your Cable provider becoming just another ISP, which is what they are most afraid of).

[steve614]

Yep, no OTA absolutely rules out Moxi for me.

[mattack]

Huh?
On my boxes nothing is missed, zero. One recording ends and the next recording starts at the exact moment that the first recording ended. There is never any gap on any of my seven boxes.

I'm recording analog cable, though I doubt if that makes a difference.

Sorry, I really doubt you're comparing it properly. Compare to a S1.. there is a gap there on S3.

[aaronwt]

I'm recording analog cable, though I doubt if that makes a difference.

Sorry, I really doubt you're comparing it properly. Compare to a S1.. there is a gap there on S3.

I've never owned an S1. I just know with my TiVoHD and S3 units there is no gap. If one recording stops while someone is speaking, like in the middle of a word. The next recording will start with the rest of that word. Not a thing is missed.

My recordings are all from digital sources.

[netringer]

...
Emergency broadcasts often use OTA


True there is the Emergency Broadcast System, but CableCARD and the TiVo supports whatever button they can press to take over everything. I know because the thing has ruined a lot of my recordings.

I've only had one actual weather alert but dozens of random firings and tests at 2 AM.

While it's in emergency mode nothing, I mean, NOTHING responds on the TiVo. I'm sure that's another Cablelabs law. We control the horizontal....

[mpastreich]

True there is the Emergency Broadcast System, but CableCARD and the TiVo supports whatever button they can press to take over everything. I know because the thing has ruined a lot of my recordings.

I've only had one actual weather alert but dozens of random firings and tests at 2 AM.

While it's in emergency mode nothing, I mean, NOTHING responds on the TiVo. I'm sure that's another Cablelabs law. We control the horizontal....

When the Cable is down and a Storm/Tornado/Etc. is heading your way, not having OTA can make the difference between life and death.

I've had a friend or two in the South who've been in that situation. Granted most people own a radio for just such emergencies (heck, the radio is much more portable also), but visual pictures (storm tracks for hurricanes for example) can often provide more information that a radio broadcast can.

[wmcbrine]

True there is the Emergency Broadcast System, but CableCARD and the TiVo supports whatever button they can press to take over everything. I know because the thing has ruined a lot of my recordings.When you're not watching, you can avoid these interruptions by putting the TiVo in Standby.

[Phantom Gremlin]

When you're not watching, you can avoid these interruptions by putting the TiVo in Standby.

Excellent! I didn't know that. I'm obsessive about putting my TiVo HDs in standby when I'm not using them, even though TiVo has made it relatively difficult to do so. Now I have another reason other than the (minor) reduction of wear and tear on the drive.

[djwilso]

Excellent! I didn't know that. I'm obsessive about putting my TiVo HDs in standby when I'm not using them, even though TiVo has made it relatively difficult to do so. Now I have another reason other than the (minor) reduction of wear and tear on the drive.If you have a Harmony remote, you can tell the Harmony setup software to "turn off" the TiVo when it's not in use, and the Harmony will then put the TiVo into Standby mode either when you turn everything off or switch to a non-TiVo "Activity" such as "Watch DVD", for example.

I have mine set this way and it works just fine.

[orangeboy]

If you have a Harmony remote, you can tell the Harmony setup software to "turn off" the TiVo when it's not in use, and the Harmony will then put the TiVo into Standby mode either when you turn everything off or switch to a non-TiVo "Activity" such as "Watch DVD", for example.

I have mine set this way and it works just fine.

I also have a Harmony remote, and love it. One button does a lot!

[davecramer74]

I cant believe people would still pay 800 bucks for a dvr.

[netringer]

I cant believe people would still pay 800 bucks for a dvr.

I can't believe people happily pay $216 a year for each 6412 DVR-in-name-only.

[VonBrick]

VERY good points, both for and against TiVo in it's current state.

I have to agree, though, with those of us who believe that TiVo has been practically sitting still while the very technology they perfected begins to look and perform better on competing platforms.

Sadly, I've seen everything from PC-based DVR packages like SageTV and Windows Media Center and now MOXI not only become capable competitors to TiVo, but to surpass TiVo in both functionally and in usability. TiVo has become a "Me, Too" technology, adding features like Netflix, YouTube, CinemaNow, etc. months or years after XBOX, RoKu and others introduce them. And, due to the limited graphical ability of the platform, these implementations offer second-rate performance and look quite amateurish when compared to those designed with "Cool" on the brain such as AppleTV.

The TiVo interface has changed exactly ZERO times in the last seven years, while my Windows Media Center interface has been upgraded at least three times in four or five years. I find myself enjoying more and more television from my 21-inch computer monitor via Media Center and Hulu through my XBOX 360. I was actually blown away by a friend's AppleTV product. How is it that these products are faster, prettier and ultimately cheaper than my $400 TiVo HD's!?

Because of the wide array of better and improving options, it's getting harder and harder to justify paying TiVo monthly just so I can watch live television (football, Idol, etc.). I get the majority of my "Can't Miss" shows on-demand for free through my PC and the gaming console.

I love TiVo. I have proven this over and over by forking over thousands of dollars to this company for each TiVo generation over the course of many years. And at times, I've been excited: The new beta Search interface, the mostly problematic TiVo Desktop, and so on. But now, for me, it's imperative that TiVo act soon to create a new single point of entry to my "all things digital." Think "AppleTV with CableCards." (I've heard even THAT is a possibility.)

Or, perhaps it's already too late. :(

[timckelley]

Because of the wide array of better and improving options, it's getting harder and harder to justify paying TiVo monthly just so I can watch live television (football, Idol, etc.).

Then do what I did. Lifetime subs. I've never paid monthly, in my history of owning TiVos. Spread out over a sufficiently large number of years, the lifetime option seems fairly cheap.

[VonBrick]

Then do what I did. Lifetime subs. I've never paid monthly, in my history of owning TiVos. Spread out over a sufficiently large number of years, the lifetime option seems fairly cheap.

Since the Lifetime Sub is the canned response from TiVo fans to most anyone who complains about the price of TiVo, I'll give this one to you. ;)

And what about the rest of the points I made? Agree? Disagree? I tried in my post to make it sound more than about just price.

[timckelley]

And what about the rest of the points I made? Agree? Disagree? I tried in my post to make it sound more than about just price.

Actually, this board seems to have a lot of users who are very knowledgable about all these alternatives to TiVo and can speak intelligently to your points. I'm not one of them though, as TiVo is the only type of DVR I've ever used, so I really am not in a position to compare them to the compitition.

At the time I was shopping, I was mainly trying to choose between Time Warner's DVR and TiVo, and I've read here (but only second hand) that Time Warner's DVR doesn't have nearly as good features, but the thing that really grabbed my attention is that with Time Warner, you have to subscribe to digital cable to get their DVR. And not only does digital cost more than analog (which is what I subscribe to), but they even charge a monthly fee for their DVR on top of that, while TiVo has no monthly fee (if you go lifetime). Also, when I went lifetime, it was only $299. Well my 3rd TiVo was even lower, because I bought it used from somebody who already lifetimed it.

So pricewise, I thought TiVo was a better deal. Technologywise? I'll let the other experienced users here who know more than I answer that.

[xboard07]

The only things I like about the Moxi over the TiVo, and neither really concerns me all that much, is QAM support without CCs and more flexibility with external storage. The rest is all smoke and mirrors.

smoke and mirrors

:rolleyes:

[fallingwater]

Moxi definitely has superior filters, but those guide filters are really oriented toward liveTV. Moxi's guide actually shows less information than TiVo; like the default "TiVo Live" guide, it only shows upcoming programs on the currently selected channel, and it shows just three timeslots compared to eight for TiVo. There is no option to display upcoming programs on multiple channels at the same time.

No question, Moxi is the superior box when it comes to liveTV viewing. Many of its features are designed to improve the liveTV viewing experience.


Moxi and TiVo have different philosophies about what best improves the TV experience. That more than anything else determines which DVR is best for a user.

TiVo and Moxi together (including their OEM cable co. and/or satellite boxes) are used only by perhaps 10% of TV watchers and perhaps 30% of DVR owners. Numbers are just educated guestimates culled from sources such as those linked below: :)

http://newteevee.com/2008/11/07/dvr-users-younger-shifting-half-their-programs/
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2007/09/11/dvr-installed-base-august-2007/619
http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/tag/total-us-television-viewers/

[WizarDru]

Sadly, I've seen everything from PC-based DVR packages like SageTV and Windows Media Center and now MOXI not only become capable competitors to TiVo, but to surpass TiVo in both functionally and in usability. TiVo has become a "Me, Too" technology, adding features like Netflix, YouTube, CinemaNow, etc. months or years after XBOX, RoKu and others introduce them.

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree that TiVo has been surpassed in both functionality and usability by another SINGLE device. For example, the Roku got Netflix first, but it's performance was noticeably substandard to the TiVo for a while. And many solutions, like SageTV or Windows Media Center may perform considerably better at some functions than the TiVo (such as media streaming, in particular)...they don't offer nearly the same level of setup or ease of use, from what I've seen.

And, due to the limited graphical ability of the platform, these implementations offer second-rate performance and look quite amateurish when compared to those designed with "Cool" on the brain such as AppleTV.

Not having used an AppleTV, what does it do that is that much more sophisticated? I originally looked at AppleTV as a multimedia hub, but when it first came out, it didn't meet my needs. Is it a more pleasing graphical interface, or does it do something that the TiVo doesn't? My general feeling has been that TiVo is not necessarily graphically sophisticated, but it is highly functional.

The TiVo interface has changed exactly ZERO times in the last seven years, while my Windows Media Center interface has been upgraded at least three times in four or five years. I find myself enjoying more and more television from my 21-inch computer monitor via Media Center and Hulu through my XBOX 360. I was actually blown away by a friend's AppleTV product. How is it that these products are faster, prettier and ultimately cheaper than my $400 TiVo HD's!?

Well, I know that's factually wrong, since I've had a TiVo for longer than that and I have seen the interface change. Dramatically? No. But there have been several changes over time.

As for your other comparisons...well, that's fine for your preferences, but I'd argue that most folks who are watching Hulu could care less about visual quality to start with and probably aren't watching tv ON the tv in general (as I know at least two friends who don't). And to get Hulu on your 360, you need to go through a fairly convoluted setup. I might do that and you might do that, but the average consumer is NOT going to want to network attach all their devices and then configure Media Center and then configure the 360 connector and then add-in software for stuff like Hulu and Youtube and Crackle to work on the 360.

I can see why TiVo would no longer be an attractive option for you, but it sounds like you're looking for different things out of TiVo than most TiVo customers. For example, I wouldn't want to watch an HD show on a tiny laptop screen...especially when I want to watch with my family. Hulu is a nice feature, but it's not a replacement for me. Want to watch an episode of Fringe? Sure, as long as it's an episode Hulu has available at the time....want to see Episodes 1-7 of this season? Can't do it....Hulu doesn't have them. But I still have them on my TiVo, waiting for me. Features that are my favorites, like MRV and season-passes...they just aren't present on other features.

I agree that TiVo needs to move forward. But TiVo is right to be cautious about it. Few other devices have so elegant an interface, regardless of how pretty or full-featured they may be. Competition will drive TiVo, but they need to make sure they don't alienate their current customer base in the process.

[johnf@home]

The TiVo interface has changed exactly ZERO times in the last seven years, while my Windows Media Center interface has been upgraded at least three times in four or five years.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The TiVo interface still works. And while there are quite a few cosmetic changes I'd like to see, none of them greatly affect the base functionality.

Over 90% of my interactions with the TiVo are to go to the "Now Playing" list, select something to view, and watch it. That's it. And, in fact, there have been changes to that interface over the years - I can now view shows grouped in folders, and I can browse shows on my other TiVo, too. (I don't know when those features were introduced, because my original TiVo box was a DirecTiVo which lagged behind mainstream TiVo development).

[johnf@home]

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree that TiVo has been surpassed in both functionality and usability by another SINGLE device. For example, the Roku got Netflix first, but it's performance was noticeably substandard to the TiVo for a while.

I don't know about that. I've got a Roku box, and we still use it rather than the TiVo for viewing Netflix content. The prime reason for that is because we mainly use it to watch old TV shows, and the Roku interface remembers which episode you last watched - theTiVo implementation doesn't. I'm also not convinced that the TiVo/Netflix support is really ready for prime time; I've had a couple of lockups (even with the latest codebase) which have needed a reboot to get the TiVo back and running. In all fairness I've had to reboot the Roku box occasionally, too, but at least that doesn't affect anything else.

[orangeboy]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

...is a good way to stand still, or worse, get left behind.

[ZeoTiVo]

VERY good points, both for and against TiVo in it's current state.

I have to agree, though, with those of us who believe that TiVo has been practically sitting still while the very technology they perfected begins to look and perform better on competing platforms. what? The UI has stayed the same and is still SD - but I could name lots of features that have been added since I bought just 4 years ago - HMO/HME, MRV, TiVotoGo, TiVocomeback and streaming are the highlights for me. I also make good use of the expanded wishlist with logical operators that was added about 2 years ago.
Swivel Search was Ok - butt he new Tivo Search with HD screens is obviously the prototype for a new UI that can tie all the above together.
Sadly, I've seen everything from PC-based DVR packages like SageTV and Windows Media Center and now MOXI not only become capable competitors to TiVo, but to surpass TiVo in both functionally and in usability. you need to back that up with some context. the couple of hands on on Moxi I have read say the UI is actually harder to work through to do the thing you want to do. Wishlists are not as full featured either. If Moxi gets streaming via DCTP-IP working then it overcomes copy protection for multi room viewing which is a plus for it but Netflix and Amazon streaming is SD only and you need a PC setup to make it work - plus for TiVo.

As for HTPC - you need an expensive system to record HD off of cable TV - HTPC is just simply not for everyone and so is really not a competitor in a direct consumer way. It can do more for sure with what it can record (and OTA is significant) but my family asks me why stuff did not print on a regular basis, I have no desire to be tech support for them on TV viewing.
With TiVo my wife setup her own season passes without me involved in all the day after I set it up. Everyone easily uses the TiVo DVR in our house to watch any show on any of the TiVo DVRs and even to copy movies direct from a PC to watch. The TiVo usability is time and young child tested in our house. It passed with flying colors. I am all for HD menus and more graphics and a good search tool, but the usability is the part that is not broke and any "fixing" might actually break it instead.

TiVo has become a "Me, Too" technology, adding features like Netflix, YouTube, CinemaNow, etc. months or years after XBOX, RoKu and others introduce them. And, due to the limited graphical ability of the platform, these implementations offer second-rate performance and look quite amateurish when compared to those designed with "Cool" on the brain such as AppleTV. How is TiVo "Me, Too" - they had Amazon before others, Roku only does netflix and Xbox nor Apple TV does not do DVR functions. TiVo is the only one that has DVR with cable HD recording and streaming in HD direct to the unit in one BOX. The box costs 700$ retail - no more payments to TiVo ever if you choose. I set it up in 20 minutes - I installed a 1TB drive in it on a Sunday afternoon with my total time involved of maybe an hour cause I took my time. I can easily copy shows to my PC and then transcode them to watch on my smartphone - been doing that for years now. As mentioned my whole family can easily access a 1 TB drive in my PC with DVD movies and shows from DVDs on it. I am not seeing how a TiVo DVR does not have functionality and lots of it. I find myself enjoying more and more television from my 21-inch computer monitor via Media Center and Hulu through my XBOX 360. I was actually blown away by a friend's AppleTV product. How is it that these products are faster, prettier and ultimately cheaper than my $400 TiVo HD's!? How many of those options record HD from the cable company? All of those are fine but they have their own limitations as well. If you are OK with paying per show or movie or the SD quality of HulU and watching from a PC then go for it. Still your preference for that way does not make them better for everyone. TiVo is smart to make streaming go directly to the TiVo box, no need for any other device.
Because of the wide array of better and improving options, it's getting harder and harder to justify paying TiVo monthly just so I can watch live television (football, Idol, etc.). I get the majority of my "Can't Miss" shows on-demand for free through my PC and the gaming console.
yet aside from Hulu - I could get all the above can't miss shows above with a TiVo HD and paying for Netflix and Amazon and soon Blockbuster and a good OTA antenna and not pay a dime to cable - or I can pay for cable either basic or the high end digital tiers and record it all easily and watch it all easily. TiVo is also working aith the provider of a lot of cable on demand to bring that to TiVo DVRs -series 3. TiVo is hardly sitting around in this new age of digital media from all kinds of sources.

[aaronwt]

TiVo may not have made many groundbreaking changes over the years, but why would you drastically change it? TiVo works as it should. I set up a recording/season pass and it works. I've been using TiVos for almost 8 years now. And in that time, the number of missed recordings can be counted on one or two hands. People I know with DVRs from cable and satellite have had that many missed recordings in a year, some in just one month. I can set the TiVo up and leave it alone. You can't rely on the other DVR offerings to do that.

[slowbiscuit]

Because of the wide array of better and improving options, it's getting harder and harder to justify paying TiVo monthly just so I can watch live television (football, Idol, etc.). I get the majority of my "Can't Miss" shows on-demand for free through my PC and the gaming console.

I love TiVo. I have proven this over and over by forking over thousands of dollars to this company for each TiVo generation over the course of many years. And at times, I've been excited: The new beta Search interface, the mostly problematic TiVo Desktop, and so on. But now, for me, it's imperative that TiVo act soon to create a new single point of entry to my "all things digital." Think "AppleTV with CableCards." (I've heard even THAT is a possibility.)
But that's the problem in its current state - Cablecards. If all you want is OTA or clear QAM or internet video, there are plenty of alternatives that are better and cheaper than Tivo. But if you need Cablecard, you don't have a lot of choices right now. So you either spend way too much money for an HTPC with DCTs and live with Windows VMC (or Windows 7 eventually) or you take the easy (and probably cheaper) way out and get a Tivo HD with lifetime, then stick a bigger HD in it.
Moxi etc. ain't there yet - the Moxi is new, unproven, and overpriced and tru2way is still a pipe dream for DVRs that consumers can buy.

[bpgveg14]

Too bad TiVo CPUs can't be upgraded like the hard drives can...

[Budget_HT]

TiVo may not have made many groundbreaking changes over the years, but why would you drastically change it? TiVo works as it should. I set up a recording/season pass and it works. I've been using TiVos for almost 8 years now. And in that time, the number of missed recordings can be counted on one or two hands. People I know with DVRs from cable and satellite have had that many missed recordings in a year, some in just one month. I can set the TiVo up and leave it alone. You can't rely on the other DVR offerings to do that.

I agree fully. Pick your choices of words: reliable, predictable, self-healing (when problems do occur), comfortable, dependable, indispensable, capable, trainable, and so on.

IMHO, TiVo comes closer to being a Personal video recorder than most any other mass-marketed DVR out there.

[fallingwater]

I...make good use of the expanded wishlist with logical operators that was added about 2 years ago.
Swivel Search was Ok - but the new Tivo Search with HD screens is obviously the prototype for a new UI that can tie all the above together.
...the couple of hands on on Moxi I have read say the UI is actually harder to work through to do the thing you want to do. Wishlists are not as full featured either...

TiVo's specialty is being a mini-Google of video programming sources. Utilizing that capability TiVo's ongoing Wishlists are one of its most powerful features. TiVo Search with its new GUI indicates where TiVo is headed. Moxi's searches are limited to the EPG data it possesses at the time a search is set up and aren't ongoing.

A TiVo user who uses TiVo as it is designed, to watch TV (almost?) totally timeshifted is unlikely to find much appeal in Moxi. But TV watchers are individuals and watch TV in many different ways. Competition between the two can only be good from a TV watcher's POV. Moxi is designed with a different philosophy than TiVo.

There are perhaps three times as many non-TiVo DVR users as TiVo users and twenty times as many non DVR users. That's where TiVo, Moxi, cable and satellite co.s compete; TiVo and Moxi as both standalone and OEM products.

Moxi isn't difficult to use. It's GUI, while very different from others, is fun to use and gets to the job at hand without glitches. It does require a short, steep learning curve, but once a viewer learns how Moxi's GUI works with its built-in shortcuts it quickly navigates to all Moxi's functions.

Where Moxi falls short is that currently a printed User Guide isn't included with its DVR and Moxi's downloadable User Guide isn't nearly as detailed or convenient to use as TiVo's classy Viewer's Guide.
--

A li'l nitpicking about functionalities: :p

Both TiVo and Moxi have similiar FF/RW functionality when progressively stepping through the speeds, with TiVo providing more compensation. My preference would be in-between but closer to Moxi's. User adjustable would be ideal! Moxi does provide user adjustable skip functionality.

Moxi and TiVo differ in what they do when a command is sent to FF/RW in the opposite direction from one already selected. TiVo slows down a speed while Moxi reverses to the slowest speed in the opposite direction. What is the logic behind TiVo's functionality? It always seemed awkward to me. YMMV! :)

[bkdtv]

Moxi and TiVo differ in what they do when a command is sent to FF/RW in the opposite direction from one already selected. TiVo slows down a speed while Moxi reverses to the slowest speed in the opposite direction. What is the logic behind TiVo's functionality? It always seemed awkward to me. YMMV! :)When you are fast forwarding in a program to skip commercials, you simply press FF a fourth time to play.

When you are fast forwarding in a program to find a scene, you start out with 20x or 60x speed, but then you use REW to slow the FF as you approach the particular scene you want.

What is the logical reason for doing it another way? Why would someone want to immediately go from FF to REW? Maybe if you overshoot? But you are a lot less likely to overshoot on TiVo because it does allow you to slow the FF speed as you approach the scene you want. TiVo also provides more autocorrection (on play, or 4th FF) to minimize the chance of overshoot.

TiVo's specialty is being a mini-Google of video programming sources. Utilizing that capability TiVo's ongoing Wishlists are one of its most powerful features. TiVo Search with its new GUI indicates where TiVo is headed. Moxi's searches are limited to the EPG data it possesses at the time a search is set up and aren't ongoing.

A TiVo user who uses TiVo as it is designed, to watch TV (almost?) totally timeshifted is unlikely to find much appeal in Moxi. But TV watchers are individuals and watch TV in many different ways. Competition between the two can only be good from a TV watcher's POV. Moxi is designed with a different philosophy than TiVo.I agree. The inability to do provide industry-leading functionality for both liveTV and recorded TV is one of TiVo's biggest failures.

Most cable company DVRs are oriented more towards liveTV viewing, and studies show that most cable company DVR users record less than half of their programming. It unrealistic to expect many users to instantly switch from the cable DVR model of 60% liveTV and 40% recorded to the TiVo model of 10% liveTV and 90% recorded. These users rely heavily on their program guide, and the TiVo's default liveTV guide and inferior grid-guide (no genre highlighting, no record indicators, no picture window) produces thousands of returns and cancellations in the first 30 days. TiVo needs to offer a much better liveTV experience, so as to provide a painless transition for those with cable/satellite STBs and DVRs.

Dish Network has done an excellent job in this area. Dish Network satellite DVRs work well for those that like to record all of their programs -- second only to TiVo -- yet they also provide an excellent liveTV viewing experience, with the best EPG available anywhere. As a result, it is much easier for a user to switch from a cable DVR (or a cable/satellite STB) to a Dish Network DVR; the experience is universally positive, whereas the same is not true with TiVo. TiVo will never become successful as a mass market CE or cable/satellite DVR product until they do something about their inferior experience with liveTV.

[spocko]

TiVo may not have made many groundbreaking changes over the years, but why would you drastically change it? TiVo works as it should.

I agree. The interface is intuitive and functional, and it works well for what it does. Call me silly, but you know what bugs me most about the current interface? The stretching on 16:9 displays. It purely a cosmetic issue. I have no problem with the general layout or functionality.

[fallingwater]

TiVo's specialty is being a mini-Google of video programming sources. Utilizing that capability TiVo's ongoing Wishlists are one of its most powerful features. TiVo Search with its new GUI indicates where TiVo is headed. Moxi's searches are limited to the EPG data it possesses at the time a search is set up and aren't ongoing.

A TiVo user who uses TiVo as it is designed, to watch TV (almost?) totally timeshifted is unlikely to find much appeal in Moxi. But TV watchers are individuals and watch TV in many different ways. Competition between the two can only be good from a TV watcher's POV. Moxi is designed with a different philosophy than TiVo.

There are perhaps three times as many non-TiVo DVR users as TiVo users and twenty times as many non DVR users. That's where TiVo, Moxi, cable and satellite co.s compete; TiVo and Moxi as both standalone and OEM products.

Moxi isn't difficult to use. It's GUI, while very different from others, is fun to use and gets to the job at hand without glitches. It does require a short, steep learning curve, but once a viewer learns how Moxi's GUI works with its built-in shortcuts it quickly navigates to all Moxi's functions.

Where Moxi falls short is that currently a printed User Guide isn't included with its DVR and Moxi's downloadable User Guide isn't nearly as detailed or convenient to use as TiVo's classy Viewer's Guide.
--

A li'l nitpicking about functionalities: :p

Both TiVo and Moxi have similiar FF/RW functionality when progressively stepping through the speeds, with TiVo providing more compensation. My preference would be in-between but closer to Moxi's. User adjustable would be ideal! Moxi does provide user adjustable skip functionality.

Moxi and TiVo differ in what they do when a command is sent to FF/RW in the opposite direction from one already selected. TiVo slows down a speed while Moxi reverses to the slowest speed in the opposite direction. What is the logic behind TiVo's functionality? It always seemed awkward to me. YMMV! :)

When you are fast forwarding in a program to skip commercials, you simply press FF a fourth time to play.

When you are fast forwarding in a program to find a scene, you start out with 20x or 60x speed, but then you use REW to slow the FF as you approach the particular scene you want.

What is the logical reason for doing it another way? Why would someone want to immediately go from FF to REW? Maybe if you overshoot? But you are a lot less likely to overshoot on TiVo because it does allow you to slow the FF speed as you approach the scene you want. TiVo also provides more autocorrection (on play, or 4th FF) to minimize the chance of overshoot.

--
I agree. The inability to do provide industry-leading functionality for both liveTV and recorded TV is one of TiVo's biggest failures.

Most cable company DVRs are oriented more towards liveTV viewing, and studies show that most cable company DVR users record less than half of their programming. It unrealistic to expect many users to instantly switch from the cable DVR model of 60% liveTV and 40% recorded to the TiVo model of 10% liveTV and 90% recorded. These users rely heavily on their program guide, and the TiVo's default liveTV guide and inferior grid-guide (no genre highlighting, no record indicators, no picture window) produces thousands of returns and cancellations in the first 30 days. TiVo needs to offer a much better liveTV experience, so as to provide a painless transition for those with cable/satellite STBs and DVRs.

Dish Network has done an excellent job in this area. Dish Network satellite DVRs work well for those that like to record all of their programs -- second only to TiVo -- yet they also provide an excellent liveTV viewing experience, with the best EPG available anywhere. As a result, it is much easier for a user to switch from a cable DVR (or a cable/satellite STB) to a Dish Network DVR; the experience is universally positive, whereas the same is not true with TiVo. TiVo will never become successful as a mass market CE or cable/satellite DVR product until they do something about their inferior experience with liveTV.

First, thanks for your answer to my questions regarding FF/RW functionality! I still find TiVo's reverse bahavior awkward, but now at least understand why they chose it. I overshoot at top speed on purpose and then reverse direction at slower speed to find what I'm looking for. I have no idea which'd ultimately be faster if there was a competition between the two modi operandi, but my way is natural for me.

(Did you read the two PM's I sent you at AVS Forum about FF/RW functionalities? The OOPS! one re-covers ReplayTV's totally SNAFU'd FF/RW behavior. No wonder ReplayTV made such a big deal out of 30 sec. skip!)

I probably disagree with 90% of TCF posters regarding watching TV live vs. timeshifted. I more often than not watch recordings set up as Season Passes while taking place. If something is worthwhile I want it as soon as available, not randomly later.

I've always felt that while TiVo isn't set up to maximize watching TV MY way, its stability, reliability, and continued independence are redeeming features. But TiVo's competition is improving. TiVo (and other DVRs) should function well either way. Toward that objective Moxi may encourage TiVo to provide an enhanced TV experience regardless of whether users watch timeshifted or not.

(Back in the old days I never understood the passion of DrStrange for TiVo until realizing that timeshifting was at the center of that passion. When DrStrange almost grudgingly heralded ReplayTV's 5000 series software revisions as approaching TiVo's functionality, I didn't care. I never took ReplayTV up on their free swap offer when they couldn't make MRV compatible between RTV's 4000 and 5000 series. To this day RTV4XXX's are my favorite ReplayTVs even though FF/RW compensation is totally fugged.)

[dgf123]

I got a moxi and I love it! In explaining to tivo why I was switching I received an email from a Jessica Loebig from tivo who says she is concerned with tivo customers concerns and wants to here from tivo customers about any problems they might be haveing! Everyone should let her know of their disdain for tivos changes. jloebig@tivo.com

[jrtroo]

User adjustable would be ideal!


Check around the forums, I recollect that you can adjust the compensation by some of the available remote codes.

[ADent]

S1 speed issues are largely negated with a CacheCard (or sticking with the original small drive).

My S1 DirecTiVo with 200GB and CacheCard is a bit snappier than mom's S3 (250GB), and a lot faster than the neighbors S2 DirecTiVo which is used in grid view (mostly due to grid view). And more reliable than the S3 so far.

Oh the S1 has no ads (except the one item on TiVo Central). The pause ads, ads when you get the delete screen, etc are annoying on the S3.



Hope Moxi works out - they have been the next best thing for at least 5 years now.

[ADent]

User adjustable would be ideal!


Check around the forums, I recollect that you can adjust the compensation by some of the available remote codes.

I think it was 2.x or 2.5 that you could enable the back doors and adjust the FF compensation in TiVo. TiVo changed the compensation going from 1.x to 2.x and again when going to 3.x.

I liked the 1.x version the best, but that was the fastest timing IIRC.

[Gavroche]

On the point that navigating the Tivo interface is slow, I would have to agree.

I have 3 Tivos, a series 2 ST, a series 2 DT, and a series 3.

The series 2 ST and particularly the S3, are, at times, painfully slow when navigating through the interface and the guide. For example you press page down in the guide and you ended up waiting quite a few seconds at times for the information to populate.

For some reason, on my STDT it seems to go much faster.

It's not a nuisance to me at all, but other members of my household are constantly complaining to me about it.

I've been wondering lately if this is in fact "just the way it is" or if this is indicative of some other issue, for example, a pending hard drive failure. I don't have any other issues that would point to that, but why the difference in navigation and data population speed?

[deandashl]

cable interfaces are SLOWER!!!!!!

Why do people expect so much more from a TiVo than anyone else?

"I can't believe after all these years TiVo doesn't have a holographic interface, allow me to surf the interent, work more than two TV's at once, have 4 tuners, do cable AND satellite, firmware upgrade to allow hardware upgrades, liquid skin to self heal, and blow me. I'm going to switch to a cable DVR, I'M MAD!!"

Almost everything everyone bitches about NO ONE ELSE DOES EITHER!!!!!!!

Sick of your "HORRIBLE" TiVo!!!! Go rent a cable DVR for a few months.

I just came from Comcast MOTO DVR, TiVo is easily superior, not perfect, but superior. Should TiVo be doing more? sure. But it's currently the best and more upgrades are on the way.

Once again, most people who complain about TiVo fall into two categories....

Never had a TiVo OR
never had a cable DVR

I've had both, TiVo is better.

[CrispyCritter]

For some reason, on my STDT it seems to go much faster.

It's not a nuisance to me at all, but other members of my household are constantly complaining to me about it.

I've been wondering lately if this is in fact "just the way it is" or if this is indicative of some other issue, for example, a pending hard drive failure. I don't have any other issues that would point to that, but why the difference in navigation and data population speed?Could be hardware failure, but more likely it's "just the way it is", due to the S3 having to do a lot more.

Many S3's have many more channels in their database than an STDT. That's especially true if the S3 is set up for OTA in addition to cable. Note that S3 database contains program info for all channels you might ever receive, not just those that you mark as "Channels I Receive". So the database is much bigger.

In addition, there's many more filtering options on your searches that might be invoked; filtering operations are generally what cause the slow data population speed. The TiVo goes off to the database and fetches a page of info to show you. It then filters that page by any other requirements you have (for example, "HD"). If there's less than a screenful remaining, it has to off to the database and fetch another page of info, thus causing a delay.

One of the most important filters that can slow things is the "Channels I Receive" filter that is always run. If you have a lot of channels that you marked as not receiving, then those channels will cause delays when their info get fetched and then discarded as above. I'm located in an area where I get get signals from two metropolitan areas. When I had OTA enabled on my S3, I would have my choice of at least 6 channels for any network show (analog vs digital vs HD on each of Cable, Washington DC, and Baltimore stations). If I marked 5 of those channels as ones I don't receive, that means a search might be throwing away 83% of the page it gets from the database - thus requiring many pages to be fetched from the database in order to get a full screen of data. It was quite slow, but got much faster when I redid guided setup and dropped OTA.

All of this is just to say the the S3 is doing a lot more than the S2DT, and thus it can be slower in some circumstances.

[Resist]

The new Moxi's are pretty slick and worth taking a look at, Thumbs up !You don't say? Well I used to have Moxi and when 2 of them crashed on me, I went back to Tivo. I much more prefer Tivo over the Moxi interface.

[bicker]

And the Moxi is still $100 more expensive.

[fallingwater]

...Dish Network satellite DVRs...provide an excellent liveTV viewing experience, with the best EPG available anywhere...TiVo will never become successful as a mass market CE or cable/satellite DVR product until they do something about their inferior experience with liveTV.

...I much...prefer Tivo over the Moxi interface.

And the Moxi is still $100 more expensive.

Although Moxi's EPG is superficially much prettier yet more confusing than TiVo's Live Guide IMHO they function in a similiar fashion. Now that I know its modus operandi I like Moxi's GUI. It's pretty, fast, and picks up every stitch.

http://www.electronichouse.com/images/slideshow/dish-vip922-epg.jpg
I've never used Dish's current EPG but always liked ReplayTV's GUI.

TiVo's current GUI is a bit boring but gets the job done with dispatch. If TiVo provided a PIG (user optional of course) I'd find TiVo more suitable for watching TV 'my way'.

TiVo can be much much cheaper than Moxi when storage capacity isn't a consideration and TiVo Service is paid monthly. HDTiVos cost $250 or less.

YMMV of course, but for me TiVo and Moxi compete more on style and functionality than price. They both require relatively expensive commitments when compared with cable co. DVRs. (I've got $1500 in TiVo Service currently not being used which I'll probably never use again.)

[MickeS]

Although Moxi's EPG is superficially much prettier yet more confusing than TiVo's Live Guide IMHO they function in a similiar fashion. Now that I know its modus operandi I like Moxi's GUI. It's pretty, fast, and picks up every stitch.

http://www.electronichouse.com/images/slideshow/dish-vip922-epg.jpg
I've never used Dish's current EPG but always liked ReplayTV's GUI

Who was talking about the EPG? bkdtv might be right that TiVo needs to improve their EPG to sell better. Too bad that it goes against the entire TiVo philosophy.

Of course, the other DVRs live and die by their EPG, since they are not more than glorified cable boxes. Personally, I don't care what the EPG looks like since I rarely use it. Well, except for in the Comcast "DVR" where the EPG WAS the use interface.

I just don't think TiVo should even bother competing with the cable DVRs when it comes to EPG. What user in their right mind would buy a TiVo to get a better live TV experience?

[fallingwater]

Moxi's EPG is an integral part of its GUI, unlike TiVo's. Compared with Moxi TiVo's GUI is, well, boring. But it gets the job done. Moxi's looks good and works 'good' too!

TiVo's philosophy is what's being debated. I've always disagreed with TiVo's total-timeshift 'philosophy' but still recognize that they make a damned good DVR. But how does it play in Peoria?

Your point may be a double-edged sword; why wouldn't users want a DVR to enhance their live TV experience? As long as specific features are user selectable or adjustable to maintain TiVo's signature timeshifting capabilities how is it in TiVo's interest to shun a significant part of the potential DVR audience? It's all about sales.

I use an EPG, BTW. The thing I like least about TiVo is probably one of the things you like best, not allowing a playing program whether live or recorded to remain audible when I'm in its menus. If TiVo incorporated a user selectable PIG in S4 how would you be disadvantaged?

[bareyb]

But now, for me, it's imperative that TiVo act soon to create a new single point of entry to my "all things digital." Think "AppleTV with CableCards." (I've heard even THAT is a possibility.)

Or, perhaps it's already too late. :(

I agree with this part of your post for sure. I would LOVE to have a simple way to view my photos, home movies, music etc. from my Macintosh on my HDTV. Yes, there are "ways" to do it now, but they require subscriptions, uploading to websites, and 3rd party software. I'd love it if TiVo could simply "build them in" and make it much more convenient. THAT would be huge for me. I'd love an "AppleTV with Cable cards". :up:

[TiVoEvan74]

I'm on a Mac, too, but with old TV set.

For us, Tivo Desktop (I think it's 1.9.4), it's the free one, works fine in showing iTunes stuff.

In addition, we set up pyTivo--a few steps to set up, but works like a charm. You get a list of the folders you've added to it, which can include podcasts, TV and movies, etc.

Is there an issue with either or both that you have an HDTV? If not, I'd highly recommend one or both. There are no subscriptions and no uploading to web sites!