Engadget article

[janry]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/ten-years-of-tivo-how-far-we-havent-come/#continued

I really don't disagree with a thing they say.

[gonzotek]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/ten-years-of-tivo-how-far-we-havent-come/#continued

I really don't disagree with a thing they say.Under their idea #5, they suggest that TiVo offer lifetime service again, something they already do: https://www3.tivo.com/store/plans.do

But overall, the article correctly hits on a lot of points.

[BigJimOutlaw]

Can't argue with that...

If the Series 4 name poll is any indication, it sounds like they might be working on something pretty interesting, at least.

[Joe3]

Sounds like "Last Call" at the Dry Gulch Bar.

Remember TiVo, you're not the monopoly protected quasi tech like you're partners and you're beginning to show signs of what in technology terms could be "The Clap."

[TDoodle]

I found the article pretty reasonable even as a 1mo old Tivo customer. It is usually true that you have to innovate with electronics. Tivo could be behind the curve on some technological advances with the product, but they do have a working product and I'm enjoying the heck out of it right now.

I'm way happier with our TivoHD than my previous Comcast Motorola HDDVR. If the Engadget folks really want to take a stroll down the "lack of technology advances" lane, they need look no further than Comcast. Tivo, whether advanced enough or not is way ahead of Comcast IMO.

There is also the ever present "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thinking and I have to say that has to play some role in considering what Tivo should do. The worst thing they could do is change too much, introduce a lot of new issues/problems and then have a bunch of customers who want to bail. So, I'm not gonna play "armchair quarterback" to the Tivo folks and have to trust that they know what they can do and what they must do.

Rick

[janry]

There is also the ever present "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thinking and I have to say that has to play some role in considering what Tivo should do. The worst thing they could do is change too much, introduce a lot of new issues/problems and then have a bunch of customers who want to bail. So, I'm not gonna play "armchair quarterback" to the Tivo folks and have to trust that they know what they can do and what they must do.

Rick

You and I probably agree the recorder is fine. I personally don't need a lot o things the article says and I don't even need a lot of the add-ons like Netflex and YouTube that have been recently added. All I want is a way to timeshift my TV viewing and MRV.

BUT (a big but), you and I are apparently the minority as TiVo is losing subscribers to cable and satellite DVRs right & left. So, maybe it is broken: not the DVR, but TiVo's marketing, support and features.

[hefe]

one study found that the average DVR-enabled family records just 15-20 percent of the TV they watch, a startlingly low number by any measure.

I'm amazed at that. I record everything that I watch, with the occasional exception of a sporting event. Even things I watch the same day, I record and start watching a bit later.

[djwilso]

I'm amazed at that. I record everything that I watch, with the occasional exception of a sporting event. Even things I watch the same day, I record and start watching a bit later.I have to agree. Why would you have a DVR if you didn't want to take a little time to set it up to record the shows you want to watch? Doing otherwise seems counter intuitive.

[janry]

hefe, that didn't surprise me since it says "DVR enabled family" and not "TiVo family". The people I know with cable company DVRs are the ones that don't timeshift as much as I do. The people with TiVos that I know tend to timeshift a lot more. I bet those results would be a lot different if it were TiVo users only.

[MichaelK]

one study found that the average DVR-enabled family records just 15-20 percent of the TV they watch, a startlingly low number by any measure.


I'm amazed at that. I record everything that I watch, with the occasional exception of a sporting event. Even things I watch the same day, I record and start watching a bit later.


i think that's because most people with DVR's have cable POS models that are too hard to use and dont have spit for storage. I visited my sister's family and they have cox DVR's out by her. They record like nothing. And still there isn't enough room on the boxes for much of anything.

[TDoodle]

You and I probably agree the recorder is fine. I personally don't need a lot o things the article says and I don't even need a lot of the add-ons like Netflex and YouTube that have been recently added. All I want is a way to timeshift my TV viewing and MRV.

BUT (a big but), you and I are apparently the minority as TiVo is losing subscribers to cable and satellite DVRs right & left. So, maybe it is broken: not the DVR, but TiVo's marketing, support and features.

The marketing/product visibility aspect could be part of the problem. I have to say that the Engadget article was "right on the money" as to the reason that I'm on Tivo today vs the Comcast DVR. I'm paraphrasing what I thought I read in the article where they said that something has to happen (an event) that causes a customer to break free from their Cable provided DVR's and consider Tivo. That "something" for me was a company wide employer mandated reduction in pay.

I had known that I wasn't happy with the Comcast DVR, but really wasn't that motivated to do anything about it. I had not thought about Tivo at all until I began looking for alternatives to the high cost of Comcast cable, DVR's, Premium channels, etc. I'm using the Netflix $8.95/mo VOD and we are really loving it.

I didn't get to any of these decisions because I saw that latest Tivo advertisement or read an article about them. It was really this site and all the great info that people have shared that helped get things rolling for me to make that change. They say "knowledge is power" and getting the answers to whether moving to Tivo was a good idea started right here for me. So, I have to say thanks to all you Tivo folks that contribute your experiences here! :up:

Rick

[innocentfreak]

I definitely agree with the article. I am sad to say I can't remember the last time I was wowed by a Tivo announcement. In fact short of Directv news I don't even follow the announcements any more. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love my Tivo but if something came along that matched the article and was as reliable as my Tivo I would jump ship pretty much immediately.

[daveak]

TiVo is a product still worth buying. I have only had a Series 3 for almost 5 whole months, but I love the box.

My biggest complaint with DVR users are the ones who keep using the word TiVo as a verb in conjunction with their POS cable DVR. I love saying, "Great, you have a TiVo to?"

them - "Well it's the box from the cable com, but it's the same thing"

me - "Oh, how do you like YouTube on your DVR?"

them - "I can get YouTube on my DVR?, what channel is that?"

me - "No, it's through your brodband connection on your DVR."

them - "My DVR can hook up to the internet?

me - "Sure, all the latest TiVos do, surely you at least made it a part of your home network so you can transfer shows around your house that you recorded. Also it is a great way to watch videos from your computer, what better way to look at all those picture and videos from your family vacation enjoy them on the big sgreen in HD"

them - "I had know idea my cable box could do all that"

me - "I though you said you it was like TiVo?"

Your brand new Yugo may have four wheels and an engine, but it is not a Mercedes (or whatever you think a finer auto is).

I think part of the problem is people who have never driven a TiVo, think the ride they are getting from their cable co DVR is TiVo like - So why pay the extra money? They are content with the cable co taking them for a ride.

It must be true that TiVo owners are better educated. :D

[fred2]

hefe, that didn't surprise me since it says "DVR enabled family" and not "TiVo family". The people I know with cable company DVRs are the ones that don't timeshift as much as I do. The people with TiVos that I know tend to timeshift a lot more. I bet those results would be a lot different if it were TiVo users only.

I wonder if it also is a matter of habit. I think vcr's were used to record "that special show" or preservation or perhaps you were going to be gone and did not want to miss something. Watching tv live is probably still a habit that has not yet evolved.

Also, maybe it is a matter of cost and number of family members. If mom and dad watch different shows and junior and junette also watch different shows, they may not be able to afford multiple tivos or other dvr's. So they are stuck watching live tv.

[orangeboy]

There is also the ever present "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thinking and I have to say that has to play some role in considering what Tivo should do.

I work/worked at a place with this mentality (I get laid off on 5/29 - woohoo!). The system I inherited was extremely neglected, running out of date & out of support software, because "things ain't broke". That system has been forcefully retired, and I (and 39 other good people) are out of a job. I learned "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good way to get left behind. It's better to move forward than stand still. I tried to modernize the system and implement it's newest features, but it was a case of too little too late.

i think that's because most people with DVR's have cable POS models that are too hard to use and dont have spit for storage. I visited my sister's family and they have cox DVR's out by her. They record like nothing. And still there isn't enough room on the boxes for much of anything.

I house-sat for my sister this past weekend and had the unfortunate opportunity to use their Brighthouse DVR. What a horror. The sluggish FF/RR/Play/Pause controls seem to take more time to find the end of the last commercial than any timeshifting saves. I now see why my bro-in-law doesn't seem to care that 5-10 seconds of the show is missed when he's FF past commercials. It's too much of a PITA to try and rewind to catch what was missed! If I didn't have my Tivo, I'm pretty sure I'd go without anything else.

There are too many people out there with cable company supplied DVRs living in ignorance. People need to have or use a Tivo to appreciate it. I don't think that's going to happen when they can get their cable co's DVR for $9.95/month, and live in ignorant bliss.

[orangeboy]

TiVo is a product still worth buying. I have only had a Series 3 for almost 5 whole months, but I love the box.

My biggest complaint with DVR users are the ones who keep using the word TiVo as a verb in conjunction with their POS cable DVR. I love saying, "Great, you have a TiVo to?"

them - "Well it's the box from the cable com, but it's the same thing"

me - "Oh, how do you like YouTube on your DVR?"

them - "I can get YouTube on my DVR?, what channel is that?"

me - "No, it's through your brodband connection on your DVR."

them - "My DVR can hook up to the internet?

me - "Sure, all the latest TiVos do, surely you at least made it a part of your home network so you can transfer shows around your house that you recorded. Also it is a great way to watch videos from your computer, what better way to look at all those picture and videos from your family vacation enjoy them on the big sgreen in HD"

them - "I had know idea my cable box could do all that"

me - "I though you said you it was like TiVo?"

Your brand new Yugo may have four wheels and an engine, but it is not a Mercedes (or whatever you think a finer auto is).

I think part of the problem is people who have never driven a TiVo, think the ride they are getting from their cable co DVR is TiVo like - So why pay the extra money? They are content with the cable co taking them for a ride.

It must be true that TiVo owners are better educated. :D

Amen, brother.

[jcthorne]

Somehow, Tivo has got to educate the blissful masses that there is something better and why they want it. Tivo's problem has not been price for a long time, its that no one knows why they should want one instead of the easy way through the cable company.

[ZeoTiVo]

hefe, that didn't surprise me since it says "DVR enabled family" and not "TiVo family". The people I know with cable company DVRs are the ones that don't timeshift as much as I do. The people with TiVos that I know tend to timeshift a lot more. I bet those results would be a lot different if it were TiVo users only.

yeah, for an engagadget article I was not overly impressed with the knowledge of details. Not a very deep article at all.
I always get a kick as well out of things like "two factors that have kept it firmly on deathwatch since 2005. " that is one tough patient in the ICU;)

I do however like the "embrace the computer within" and have never understood why TiVo did not open up some and install a Flash enabled web browser and add support for a USB keyboard. Viola, instant fun on your TV and watch wishlist use go way up as well - which would emphasize yet another feature that is superior on a TiVo.

I know that would take some work and mean something else took a lower priority but it does seem that Hulu via TiVo without having Hulu loose its own interface would be a big sales factor. Heck - just the USB keyboard tied into the TiVo would be a big bonus.

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo is a product still worth buying. I have only had a Series 3 for almost 5 whole months, but I love the box.

My biggest complaint with DVR users are the ones who keep using the word TiVo as a verb in conjunction with their POS cable DVR. I love saying, "Great, you have a TiVo to?"

them - "Well it's the box from the cable com, but it's the same thing"

me - "Oh, how do you like YouTube on your DVR?"

them - "I can get YouTube on my DVR?, what channel is that?"

Why TiVo has not made an ad like this is beyond me. They can go real generic on the DVR box and not even say the word cable if they want to avoid going negative on partners.

[bmgoodman]

Why TiVo has not made an ad like this is beyond me. They can go real generic on the DVR box and not even say the word cable if they want to avoid going negative on partners.

Apparently someone at Tivo thought jock-itch would sell their product much more effectively than comparing their product to inferior generic DVRs. :rolleyes:

[kb7sei]

I do however like the "embrace the computer within" and have never understood why TiVo did not open up some and install a Flash enabled web browser and add support for a USB keyboard. Viola, instant fun on your TV and watch wishlist use go way up as well - which would emphasize yet another feature that is superior on a TiVo.

I know that would take some work and mean something else took a lower priority but it does seem that Hulu via TiVo without having Hulu loose its own interface would be a big sales factor. Heck - just the USB keyboard tied into the TiVo would be a big bonus.


I don't know about the HD and S3 units, but older TiVo boxes have a pathetic CPU. They can't really "embrace the computer within". There isn't enough of one in there. Seriously, for normal CPU tasks, a 486 probably out-computes a TiVo. The only reason TiVo boxes can do video at all, let alone HD, is that they have a dedicated co-processor doing all that work. That's also why they take so stinking long to boot up and can't saturate a 100mbit network. I can boot Linux over a network on a P1 class machine faster than I can boot a TiVo.

That's not a bad thing really, it keeps costs down. But with ION based nettops being released left and right, there is now some competition. With an NVidia GPU capable of doing HD video decode and a significantly faster main CPU than a TiVo, for less money if you include lifetime.......... Let's just say I'm eagerly awaiting such a box, and they are due to hit streets very soon now. If the ION is supported by NVidia's Linux drivers, it's going to be a VERY good seller.

[ZeoTiVo]

I don't know about the HD and S3 units, but older TiVo boxes have a pathetic CPU. They can't really "embrace the computer within". There isn't enough of one in there. Seriously, for normal CPU tasks, a 486 probably out-computes a TiVo. The only reason TiVo boxes can do video at all, let alone HD, is that they have a dedicated co-processor doing all that work. That's also why they take so stinking long to boot up and can't saturate a 100mbit network. I can boot Linux over a network on a P1 class machine faster than I can boot a TiVo.

That's not a bad thing really, it keeps costs down. But with ION based nettops being released left and right, there is now some competition. With an NVidia GPU capable of doing HD video decode and a significantly faster main CPU than a TiVo, for less money if you include lifetime.......... Let's just say I'm eagerly awaiting such a box, and they are due to hit streets very soon now. If the ION is supported by NVidia's Linux drivers, it's going to be a VERY good seller.

my cell phone using skyfire browser over G3 can go to Hulu.com and play a show just fine. It can do the smae with CNN.com or YouTube. the CPU in a TiVo is not the issue though I agree they balance cost more heavily than power in which one to use.

That said - I would be fine if the flash player only came out for Series 3 and beyond.

PS - TiVo takes so long to boot because they checksum all the files to make sure they are original files to dampen hacking activities.

[kika2000]

I read the engadget article with great interest, and I thought I'd chime in as someone who doesn't own a Tivo yet, but is actively looking.

I've had a couple of cable co. DVRs for a few years and LOVE how they've changed my tv experience. So much so, that when I upgraded to HDTVs, it never occurred to me that my new HD-DVRs could suck so horribly - but they do.
I now have two SA-8300 HDC boxes from TWC-NY, and they are the worst. Technically, they work, but the interface is so bad that it takes the joy out of what used to be fun.
Before I decided to bite the bullet and shell out the $300.00 up front plus a couple dollars more per month for a Tivo, I figured I should do a little research.
Here's what I've found -

Everyone loved the interface - ten years ago. Lots of people still love it, but if you sell an HD box, why isn't the interface 16:9? My roku box has updated itself numerous times in the last year, each time adding new capability, and it looks great in HD.
Easy expansion. Super big plus.
Until a month ago, I had external esata drives hooked up to my DVRs, but with the new TWC firmware update, these are just bricks and my programming is gone. Having a supported expansion option is HUGE for me.
Cable card confusion and lack of MRV support.
TWC NY copy protects just about everything, so MRV is almost useless to people like me. Not Tivo's problem? Well, lack of it is the single biggest reason for my hesitation in buying two of these and getting lifetime subscriptions. If I thought Tivo was doing any work to lobby cable co.s or individual networks to allow MRV for people like me, I'd have hope for the future, but telling me to call my cable co. is basically telling me to look elsewhere for that option.
The pause/advertising controversy.
Not a deal-breaker by itself, but I'm only considering a replacement for my current DVR not because it doesn't work, but because it doesn't work the way I want it to work. If I wanted banner ads, I'd just watch tv on my computer.
I like scrolling through my channel listings while watching a program, pausing, rewinding and pausing to read things that I've missed, and I'm completely addicted to my hour long live tv buffer.

Taken individually, none of these is that big a deal, but in the last few weeks I've gone from deciding to run out the door and buy two Tivos right now, to not being sure that the service is right for me.

[CraigHB]

Some things in that article I agree with. I'd really like a QWERTY remote. It would also be nice if the TiVo could boot in a reasonable amount of time. Sometimes things are slow, but most of the time things are fast enough for me. It certainly wouldn't hurt to put more processes in the background and get rid of some "please wait" messages. Some things mentioned in that article wouldn't be of that much benefit to me. I have more content available than I can watch with cable and Netflix. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have even more content access. IMO, TiVo is still the best DVR. I rely on it for 100% of my broadcast viewing and that's been the case since day 1. Unfortunately for TiVo Inc, I think you have to own a TiVo to appreciate the difference.

[ZeoTiVo]

Taken individually, none of these is that big a deal, but in the last few weeks I've gone from deciding to run out the door and buy two Tivos right now, to not being sure that the service is right for me.

yep - there is no answer to copy protection from TWC. You would have to take it by the FCC and fight a battle and even at that many of the stations can still be legally copy protected. Note that some channels have even contacted TWC but the copy protection stays even on those channels. :mad:

Have you researched Moxi at all? - a couple of threads here on it - though note their "MRV" feature is not in place yet but they claim streaming via DTCP-IP which should get around the copy protection.

[orangeboy]

I read the engadget article with great interest, and I thought I'd chime in as someone who doesn't own a Tivo yet, but is actively looking.

I've had a couple of cable co. DVRs for a few years and LOVE how they've changed my tv experience. So much so, that when I upgraded to HDTVs, it never occurred to me that my new HD-DVRs could suck so horribly - but they do.
I now have two SA-8300 HDC boxes from TWC-NY, and they are the worst. Technically, they work, but the interface is so bad that it takes the joy out of what used to be fun.
Before I decided to bite the bullet and shell out the $300.00 up front plus a couple dollars more per month for a Tivo, I figured I should do a little research.
Here's what I've found -

Everyone loved the interface - ten years ago. Lots of people still love it, but if you sell an HD box, why isn't the interface 16:9? My roku box has updated itself numerous times in the last year, each time adding new capability, and it looks great in HD.
Easy expansion. Super big plus.
Until a month ago, I had external esata drives hooked up to my DVRs, but with the new TWC firmware update, these are just bricks and my programming is gone. Having a supported expansion option is HUGE for me.
Cable card confusion and lack of MRV support.
TWC NY copy protects just about everything, so MRV is almost useless to people like me. Not Tivo's problem? Well, lack of it is the single biggest reason for my hesitation in buying two of these and getting lifetime subscriptions. If I thought Tivo was doing any work to lobby cable co.s or individual networks to allow MRV for people like me, I'd have hope for the future, but telling me to call my cable co. is basically telling me to look elsewhere for that option.
The pause/advertising controversy.
Not a deal-breaker by itself, but I'm only considering a replacement for my current DVR not because it doesn't work, but because it doesn't work the way I want it to work. If I wanted banner ads, I'd just watch tv on my computer.
I like scrolling through my channel listings while watching a program, pausing, rewinding and pausing to read things that I've missed, and I'm completely addicted to my hour long live tv buffer.

Taken individually, none of these is that big a deal, but in the last few weeks I've gone from deciding to run out the door and buy two Tivos right now, to not being sure that the service is right for me.

Good arguments. Great first post.
Thanks for joining and providing your viewpoint. I think you would like owning a Tivo. It would be nice if you could rent or trial one to help you decide!

[janry]

TiVo responds:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/29/tivos-jim-denney-responds-to-engadget/#continued

[MichaelK]

curious
why does anyone care about boot time? The boxes dont generally boot in my presence so why should i care how fast it is?

[janry]

Well, I have to re-boot mine on the average probably once a week, and the only time I know I need to reboot it, is when I'm try to watch somthing, or find something I want to record. Then I have to wait about 7 minutes to get it restarted.

[Bierboy]

Well, I have to re-boot mine on the average probably once a week...

If you reboot that often, you have problems with that box....

[janry]

If you reboot that often, you have problems with that box....

I don't think so. That was common with my Series 1 and has been with my HD.

[txporter]

I don't think so. That was common with my Series 1 and has been with my HD.

I agree with Bierboy. I don't think that is a common complaint with TivoHD. I have had two TivoHDs for about 1.5 years now. I really only reboot them when I get a software upgrade. Do you have something in particular that causes them to need a reboot?

Jason

[MichaelK]

I don't think so. That was common with my Series 1 and has been with my HD.


I dont think its all that common. Could be something about your cable set up that causes the box to bork where as others dont- but it sure sounds like a drive waiting to puke. I've had tivo's for about 7 years now, S1s, S2,s S1 directivo, S2 directiv, hdrictivo, s2 dvd-r, and S3's. ALways 2-3 in my house at a time getting daily use. I think the total number of times I've had to force a reboot, or had a lockup cause a reboot would be measured in the scores and usually as a cluster with a particular software version. So it's way way way less then once a week for me. I can't recall the last time My S3's have rebooted in the last 2 11.x versions.

So what exactly causes you the need to reboot? Lock ups? pixilation? something else?

[janry]

So what exactly causes you the need to reboot? Lock ups? pixilation? something else?

Mostly, slow movement among menus and sometimes a complete lockup. I also find the freezes happen if I try to do anything much in season passes or wishlists while the daily call is happening. I've learned to check on the daily call status before doing that type of maintenance.

My Series 1 lasted from 2002 until the end of 2008 when I finally pulled the plug on it but I'm sure it would still be working today. The HD is almost 2 years old. Neither has had to have any repairs. I upgraded the Series 1 for a larger drive but have not had a drive failure.

We don't watch anything unless it is recorded on TiVo. It's actually quite a bit we watch so I believe the workload is greater than a lot of people's.

[Bierboy]

Yeah, you got something wrong with that box or the set up or both. Re-boots that often are NOT common with TiVo. I've had the original S3 since the day it was released (almost 3 years ago?) and an HD for the past few weeks (so that doesn't count :) ) I can count the number of un-forced reboots on one hand.

[gonzotek]

We don't watch anything unless it is recorded on TiVo. It's actually quite a bit we watch so I believe the workload is greater than a lot of people's.The drive in the TiVo is always recording, and unless you leave it paused on a recorded program it is also very nearly always "playing back" the live buffer. So the workload, as far as the recording/playing of content, is equivalent to every other TiVo of the same model. The number of season passes, wishlists, guru guides, and TiVocasts/web video downloads all can vary greatly between boxes. I have around 50 season passes on my HD, which I don't consider excessive, a few wishlists (non auto-recording currently), and a few tivocasts. I only reboot, maybe, once every few weeks to once every few months. It's on a UPS and it used to reboot due to brown outs more often than any other reason. I've seen people here say that have >100 season passes, plus wishlists, etc.

[janry]

I often hover around 100 season passes/AWL.

Always on UPS.

It's a computer. The more you do, such as going between menus options, the more confused it gets.

I leave my office computer on 24/7 and it also needs to reboot about once a week.

Now, let's get off this threadjack. My TiVos are fine. I've heard a number of people say essentially the same thing about having to reboot their TiVos often.

[gonzotek]

I often hover around 100 season passes/AWL.

Always on UPS.

It's a computer. The more you do, such as going between menus options, the more confused it gets.

I leave my office computer on 24/7 and it also needs to reboot about once a week.

Now, let's get off this threadjack. My TiVos are fine. I've heard a number of people say essentially the same thing about having to reboot their TiVos often.

Happy to end the threadjack, but if I were you I take it up with TiVo tech support. I use my tivo heavily, I'm in and out of menus all the time, use netflix streaming, local music playback, streambaby, amazon downloads. Many of these every single day in addition to the standard dvr functions. It doesn't slow down and it doesn't require rebooting. A once-a-week reboot on a tivo is simply far, far above par. Sorry.

[morac]

TiVo responds:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/29/tivos-jim-denney-responds-to-engadget/#continued


Frankly, TiVo has changed a lot in the past few years. TiVo has gone from being a time-shifting device to being a converged entertainment device. We've gone from being available only in the living room to now accessible from a PC or cell phone. We've gone increased capacity from 14 hours of SD to 150 hours of HD

I picked up a S2 in March 2003. It came with the 3.2 software. The changes made since then are listed here (http://dvrpedia.com/TiVo_software_version_history#Version:_3.2).
I picked up a S3 in December 2006. It came with the 8.0 software. The changes made since then are listed here (http://dvrpedia.com/TiVo_software_version_history#Series_3_Stand-Alone_TiVos).

Of those, changes I'd consider brand new functionality (i.e. not tweaks of existing functionality) are:

Grouping (4.0 - Spring 2003)
MRV (4.0 - Spring 2003)
Music & Photos (4.0 - Spring 2003)
Remote Scheduling (4.0 - Spring 2003)
TiVo To Go (7.1 - Jan 2005, 9.1 - Sep 2007 for Series 3)
HME (7.2 - Aug 2005)
HD recording with Series 3 (Sep 2006)
Video Downloads from various sources (8.1 - Nov 2006)
KidZone (8.1 - Nov 2006)
Recently Deleted folder (8.1 - Nov 2006)
Official external Storage support (9.2 - Oct 2007)
Support for streaming (H.264/VC-1) video (9.4 - July 2008)
Support for HD (H.264/VC-1) video and 5.1 audio downloads (11.0(c) - Winter 2008)
TiVo Search (Winter 2008)


This can basically be condensed to:

HD support
Support for downloading (HD) video and streaming (HD) video, music and photos
Support for external storage
Support for transferring programs to/from TiVo.
Remote Scheduling
HME applications
TiVo/Swivel Search - I'll throw this into it's own category even though it's technically a HME app.
KidZone
GUI changes


So in the 6 years since I bought my first TiVo box, TiVo has only introduced about 10 truly new features and most of those were added more than 2.5 years ago. In that entire time, other than renaming, adding or moving a few menus items around and adding a Recently Deleted folder, the GUI really hasn't changed.

[morac]

I leave my office computer on 24/7 and it also needs to reboot about once a week.

My office computer reboots once a month and only because Microsoft forces it too when it applies the security patches. The same thing with my laptop, though it's not on 24/7 since I hibernate it.

The only time my TiVo S3 reboots (barring any hangs or lock ups caused by bugs) is when new software downloads. In the last year I'd say my S3 has probably restarted maybe 5 or 6 times (once for a Netflix lockup, once for a GUI hang in 11.0c, once for a instant reboot bug that appears to be fixed as of 11.0b and the rest for software updates)

Basically it's not normal to have to reboot a computer weekly or even monthly.

[xboard07]

I can't agree with #3 more...update that tired GUI already

[guy_jin]

2 thoughts:

1. there is nothing wrong with the GUI. The Windows UI has been basically the same for almost 15 years now; compared to that, TiVo is high-tech! Besides, a big UI change on the Mac side didn't really send them flying off the shelves. Part of the reason is the high cost of Macs compared to PCs. Which brings me to thought 2:

2. Is price the problem? TiVo can't hope to compete with Cable DVRs price wise... or can it? Could TiVo get away with renting out their boxes on a monthly basis, as Cable companies do?
It might lose them money at first, but they could make it back on volume (and more valuable ad sales) - they could even team up with DirecTV to do it (since they already have people setting up Sat boxes all over the country, for them, installing a TiVo would be a breeze.) Also, Atom-based Netbooks are selling well, partly because of their inexpensiveness - is it cheaper to build a TiVo than a Netbook? if not, maybe it's time to upgrade.

[morac]

The Windows UI has been basically the same for almost 15 years now

Umm, no it hasn't. Unless you mean the windows have always been square.

Windows 3.1
http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/win31.png

Windows 7
http://www.techlivez.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/windows-7-desktop.jpg

[guy_jin]

Umm, no it hasn't. Unless you mean the windows have always been square.
Windows 3.1


Do the math. 2009-14('almost 15')=1995=windows 95, not 3.1, which came out in 1992.

[morac]

Do the math. 2009-14('almost 15')=1995=windows 95, not 3.1, which came out in 1992.

Okay's here Windows 95. It still doesn't look like Vista or Windows 7. The later has transparency, desktop widgets and ton of other GUI features that 95 did not.

http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/win95.png


By the way if you want to see how the Windows GUI has evolved, you can check out this page (http://www.ihackintosh.com/2009/02/evolution-of-windows-operating-system-from-windows-10-to-windows-7/). You can see the changes for yourself.

Compare that with TiVo's GUI interface which basically looks the same as it did when the S1 first came out (with the addition of gold stars and ads)

[guy_jin]

but it's still basically the same thing. Icons on the desktop, Start menu in the corner, windows with the _[]X controls, and programs laid out along the bottom. While there have been innovations, there haven't been any major changes since 1995.

There are aesthetic differences (blue instead of grey, round buttons instead of pointy squares, transparency, and so on) but nothing major.

Tivo's UI looks nice. It does what it needs to. If they feel the need to tweak the looks of it, fine, but don't mess with the basics.

[samo]

[QUOTE=morac;7242387]I
This can basically be condensed to:

HD support
Support for downloading (HD) video and streaming (HD) video, music and photos
Support for external storage
Support for transferring programs to/from TiVo.
Remote Scheduling
HME applications
TiVo/Swivel Search - I'll throw this into it's own category even though it's technically a HME app.
KidZone
GUI changes

You and TiVo VP forgot to mention ads. It is a significant "feature" that was introduced and improved over the years. :)

[nrc]

I don't agree with #4. I still don't think that there is an urgent need for a Tru2Way box. TiVo went through all the teething problems of cable card because they had no choice. There's nothing driving them to rush out a Tru2Way box and go through that process again.

Even Engadget themselves earlier this year said that there wouldn't be much happening in Tru2Way this year (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/01/19/the-state-of-tru2way-according-to-ces/):
The bottom line is that if you thought that 2009 was going to be the year of tru2way, then think again. At the very most there will only be about four TVs for sale, from two manufacturers, and maybe an add-on box from Sony. This also means that there probably won't be a tru2way box from TiVo, Moxi or even an Windows Media Center tru2way compatible tuner.

I also think they're off base claiming that "The single biggest reason people don't switch to TiVo is the lack of cable company on demand and pay-per-view content..." I would bet that biggest reason people don't switch is simply cost and convenience.

TiVo needs to move into Tru2Way in a timely manner, but there's no big rush. A CES 2010 announcement with availability by the end next year would probably be timed about right.

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo needs to move into Tru2Way in a timely manner, but there's no big rush. A CES 2010 announcement with availability by the end next year would probably be timed about right.

assuming they also make a better TiVo I agree -
they need to at a minimum
- incorporate the new TiVo search in a way that it runs much faster = add more robust scheduling features directly into TiVo search
- open up the streaming so that new content from say abc.com or some new internet site we do not know of yet can be had without waiting on TiVo to implement it.
- stream content in a way that any show can be viewed on another TiVo or PC regardless of copy protection flags.

ETA - oh yah - get us off of left-left down-down to enter one darn letter

[netringer]

2. Put a little QWERTY in the peanut

...Most importantly, why is using it to enter in search terms such a terrible pain in the ass?

If you're going to be serious about video on demand and your new search interface, you've got to make text input way easier. This isn't rocket science -- just take a cue from the smartphone market and build a slider QWERTY peanut with a friendly, stripped-down top layout. Not only will you have once again set a standard in remote design for a decade, you'll have made YouTube on TiVo something other than a painful way to torture party guests with bloopy sounds.

Yeah it can be improved. Doing tasks like entering your email address and password for My Yahoo or entering a podcast feed are true torture, but...
...how do the craptastic DVRs do it? Simple. You can't enter a text search at all. You have to find the program on the schedule to set up a series recording.

I'll take hunt and click on a grid any day over that.

Even a slide-out keyboard is too '90s thinking. Make a remote with a touch screen and gestures with an iPhone/iTouch interface.

Whatever you do DO NOT mess with the peanut and button layout. Have the touch under a fold up with the classic buttons. :cool:

[erwos]

If they just modernized the interface, I'd be super-pleased. As it is now, it's just way too slow and doesn't make effective use of screen space.

As for the rest of the suggestions:
1. I don't think anyone could complain about more streaming options, but I strongly suspect there are hardware limitations in play, especially on the container side.
2. QWERTY would be awesome - I'm thinking just give us Bluetooth and/or IR support.
3. I'm torn on whether I think tru2way is all that important. Traditional VOD is definitely a needed feature, but it could be delivered via broadband using deals with Netflix and Amazon.

For bonus points, I'd want to see real 1080p upconversion and a GUI that rendered at that resolution. That'd be pretty sweet.

Of course, we all know the truth, which is that none of this really matters: TiVo's real problem is that the subsidized boxes from cable companies are impossible to compete against. Short of doing deals with the cable companies to provide TiVo boxes (in which case tru2way becomes incredibly important) or getting the courts to rule that subsidized boxes are anti-competitive and need to be banned, they will never become super profitable.

Better boxes will help, mind you, but TiVo's root problem is not the quality of its hardware and software.

[dresden69]

Very interesting article and discussion...

I just came back to TiVO... We had Directv... and then moved to FIOS and hated their box, so bought two TiVO HDs. I loved the Directv interface, it was smooth and easy to use, and looked awesome. TiVo's interface is clunky and while functional, does not scream 'WoW' to me... if you want to see wow... look at: http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/04/01/macrovision-shows-new-passport-tru2way-guide-and-iguide-multi-ro/

That interface screams to me... it shows innovation... Give me something like that... Give me a picture inside the guide... dont give me an overlay...

Give me Picture in Picture... your box has dual tuners on it... I can pause and switch to the other, and then return... Give me that ability with two screens on my tv at once... Become the flagship that you once were...

I still love you TiVo... just improve a little.

[Kablemodem]

Why watch something on a tiny screen with no sound when you can watch both programs on a full screen with sound?

[morac]

You and TiVo VP forgot to mention ads. It is a significant "feature" that was introduced and improved over the years. :)

That would be covered under GUI changes. ;)



Whatever you do DO NOT mess with the peanut and button layout. Have the touch under a fold up with the classic buttons. :cool:

Text inputting could be vastly improved without needing to change the remote simply by enabling a smarter or predictive inputting scheme.

TiVo Search is a good start since it usually can find what you are looking for within a few letters, but the input could be improved by implementing an input method similar to what cell phones use. Then letters could be input using the number keys on the remote.

[MichaelK]

....

Of course, we all know the truth, which is that none of this really matters: TiVo's real problem is that the subsidized boxes from cable companies are impossible to compete against. Short of doing deals with the cable companies to provide TiVo boxes (in which case tru2way becomes incredibly important) or getting the courts to rule that subsidized boxes are anti-competitive and need to be banned, they will never become super profitable.....

I'm not so sure that tivo can't compete on price with cable boxes. The problem is everyone believes that and tivo does nothing by way of advertising to dispel the myth. there are plenty of places where it's like 15+ to rent an HD DVR. granted it would take multiple years for tivo to payback and equal that - but it's not like impossible. And even if it works out to 3-5 bucks more a month over the life of the box- explain why the box is totally worthy "less than a cup of coffee at starbucks once a month". Granted that's not everywhere but for a good portion of places tivo can equal or come within 2 starbucks coffees a month with cables prices. They just dont even explain that and they certainly never clearly explain why they have more value then a cable DVR.

Beyond the crazies of buying a box and then charging for lifetime- the suggestion above for renting isn't all that crazy. Have they ever tried zero down with a high monthly fee? Call it 19- then explain that the average cable box costs whatever and why the difference is worth it.

also- they don't need the courts- the FCC can decide on the subsidize and fairness issus. But thing is- I'm not certain- the regs are hard to decipher on the issue - but i believe that current regs stipulate if the box being rented is able to get basic cable then it can NOT be subsidized. So how do they get by for 6-12 bucks a month?-Tivo supposedly about breaks even on the price of hardware- a tivo HD is 250 in retail. With the retailers markup I'm guessing they wholesale for 200. (ALL ROUGH NUMBERS)-So assume cable pays 200 (they need to also pay for software- but they buy MANY more boxes then tivo has sold over it's lifetime...). I think I've seen analyst presentations from directiv that there HD DVR's are at 200 or perhaps even lower cost to them. So figure for sake of ROUGH NUMBERS 200 and then assume the average cable box lasts 4 years. Comes to like 4.16 a month. add 50% to my numbers you are still at 6 bucks a month.

[guy_jin]

Whatever you do DO NOT mess with the peanut and button layout. Have the touch under a fold up with the classic buttons. :cool:


What they could do, is something like the Xbox360 controller: it has a socket in the bottom of it that you can connect a little keyboard to. if you stuck such a thing on the side of the peanut, you could pop it in, type what you needed to, and pull it back out and shove it in your couch cushions or whatever.

[samo]

explain why the box is totally worthy "less than a cup of coffee at starbucks once a month". Granted that's not everywhere but for a good portion of places tivo can equal or come within 2 starbucks coffees a month with cables prices. They just dont even explain that and they certainly never clearly explain why they have more value then a cable DVR.
The question is - is Tivo worth "2 starbucks coffees a month "? I know close to nothing about cable DVRs, I'm using satellite. So, presume that I know close to nothing about TiVo and am trying to decide what DVR to get for cable. For me, it would be no brainer to select cable box at any price. TiVo doesn't do VOD and I would have to call to get PPV like I did in 80's. Big turn-off. Sure, TiVo let's me rent from Amazon and Netflix - why would I want it if I can get the same thing by push of the button on my remote and most of the stuff is free of charge on VOD or better quality on PPV?
Why would I want to pay extra for the ads on my UI or FF?
I have been using TiVo since Sep' 1999 and honestly, I don't get what advantage TiVo has over other DVRs. Granted, I'm using Dish and DirecTV DVRs and from what I understand they are better than what cable has to offer. All DVRs I ever used allowed me to timeshift and skip commercials. All have search and equivalent of season pass and wishlist. Suggestions is a only unique DVR feature TiVo has that comes to mind.
As for non-DVR features like MRV or Tivo-to-GO, that is something that most people do not care about and will not pay extra to have regardless how you advertise it. I'm willing to bet that if you present two DVRs to the average cable users and tell them that one does VOD and PPV and the other doesn't have it but has all these extra goodies, nine out of ten or more will go for the cable box. If you also tell them that they have to pay upfront and commit to minimum of one year of service, you will end up with a situation we observe now - TiVo sells pathetically small number and cable boxes subs grow like mushrooms.
Gets even tougher to sell TiVo if you add satellite DVRs to the mix.
For example both TiVo and HR2X have reserved space. TiVo uses it to store extended commercials, DirecTV stores new release movies in 1080P. From what I understand, S3 can not even output 1080P.
Sorry, I didn't spend thousands for my HD Tvs to watch SD movies from the Netflix.
I don't think that price is a major reason people don't buy TiVo. Back in 1999 I paid $500 for the 14 hr S1 and that was one of the best purchases I ever made. TiVo sold more DVRs in 2000 when they sold in 2008. The major reason is that competition has more appealing set of features on their DVRs today.

[MickeS]

Good article, I agree with everything in it. And many on this very forum have been saying the same thing. :)

I just don't think TiVo has the ability to DO a whole lot. They're not exactly Sony or Microsoft, they can't take a chance on something that might not pay off. The UI works, so they keep it, until a new guaranteed moneymaker would bring in more dollars.

TiVo Search is a huge step in the right direction.

[deandashl]

I'm constantly shocked by the "cable DVR's are free" or "cable DVR's are a few bucks a month" or "Is TiVo worth the extra cost?"

EXTRA???

$15.95/month. That's what Comcast was charging me. Up $2 per year for three years. Many franchises are paying $20 already.

I'll pay $0/month for the M-card. $16 installation - one time fee.

A TiVo HD pays for itself in about 3.2 years. (I bought the XL myself)

Three weeks and I love it. I've had more upgrades to my TiVo than Comcast had in over 4 YEARS!!! Can't wait for the HD UI to come out.

[spocko]

I agree. Compared to renting a HD DVR from Comcast for $17/mo, Tivo saves me money in addition to being a better and more versatile DVR. I'll break even at about 3 years, and beyond that I'll save. If I take into account the fact that if I didn't have a Tivo I might have spent $100 on a Roku box and maybe another $100 on a WD HD media player, the value of the Tivo is quite remarkable.

[fallingwater]

I'm amazed at that. I record everything that I watch, with the occasional exception of a sporting event. Even things I watch the same day, I record and start watching a bit later.

TiVo is optimized for timeshifting. It's stock-in-trade is being a mini-Google of TV programming.

Perhaps timeshifting behavior is a chicken vs. egg question; do DVR users who routinely watch TV timeshifted buy TiVo because that's what it's designed for and those who don't buy or rent other types of DVRs, or is the DVR the reason for the preferred behavior?

I'm betting that the truth isn't as simply arrived at as posts here may suggest.

Moxi is the only other hi-def standalone DVR currently being manufactured and has a different philosophy behind its design than does TiVo. Moxi is better suited than TiVo for users who routinely watch both live and timeshifted TV. It offers relatively long recording buffers and a picture window of whatever's playing while in (almost all) of its menus.

More power to both TiVo and Moxi! Hopefully DVR users of all persuasions will ultimately benefit from innovations brought about by competition.

[ZeoTiVo]

Moxi is the only other hi-def standalone DVR currently being manufactured and has a different philosophy behind its design than does TiVo. Moxi is better suited than TiVo for users who routinely watch both live and timeshifted TV. It offers relatively long recording buffers and a picture window of whatever's playing while in (almost all) of its menus.


I think TiVo is form the ground up designed to record shows that are watched

Moxi came from a made for cable heritage which is far more geared toward watch it soon after it airs philosophy versus record all that you watch.
Moxi did wisely put in a much bigger hard drive though which allows for more recording to happen. The guide and how you schedule recordings though is a bit convoluted according to the initial hands on I have seen.

[MichaelK]

The question is - is Tivo worth "2 starbucks coffees a month "? I know close to nothing about cable DVRs, I'm using satellite. So, presume that I know close to nothing about TiVo and am trying to decide what DVR to get for cable. For me, it would be no brainer to select cable box at any price. TiVo doesn't do VOD and I would have to call to get PPV like I did in 80's. Big turn-off. Sure, TiVo let's me rent from Amazon and Netflix - why would I want it if I can get the same thing by push of the button on my remote and most of the stuff is free of charge on VOD or better quality on PPV?



It depends on the market if it's one or 2 starbucks coffees- cable boxes aren't free.

vod's not a driver for everyone. But sure if the free vod is big to you then yes it's a MAJOR issue. Remember though that much of america still is on ANALOG cable so they dont even have vod. That being said- tivo made a deal with the largest vod system provider to address that. But there's not much else ANYONE can do about it besides make a similar deal or build a tru2way dvr. cable has locked everyone out.


Why would I want to pay extra for the ads on my UI or FF?
I have been using TiVo since Sep' 1999 and honestly, I don't get what advantage TiVo has over other DVRs. Granted, I'm using Dish and DirecTV DVRs and from what I understand they are better than what cable has to offer. All DVRs I ever used allowed me to timeshift and skip commercials. All have search and equivalent of season pass and wishlist. Suggestions is a only unique DVR feature TiVo has that comes to mind.



The majority of people paying for tv pay cable and most of them with dvr's have the crappy cable company dvr's. Having not used a cable dvr you dont have a clue how terrible as a whole they are. 160gb usually even on HD models. No wishlists, no easy way to skip commericals- ff without correction then play. They are AWFULL and that's the market tivo should be selling to that it's worth a cup of coffe a month to.


As for non-DVR features like MRV or Tivo-to-GO, that is something that most people do not care about and will not pay extra to have regardless how you advertise it. I'm willing to bet that if you present two DVRs to the average cable users and tell them that one does VOD and PPV and the other doesn't have it but has all these extra goodies, nine out of ten or more will go for the cable box. If you also tell them that they have to pay upfront and commit to minimum of one year of service, you will end up with a situation we observe now - TiVo sells pathetically small number and cable boxes subs grow like mushrooms.


We'll have to agree to disagree that people prefer VOD over day to day ease of use. I dont think they would. TOTALLY true that the long term commitment (in terms of contract and break even point) is a problem.


Gets even tougher to sell TiVo if you add satellite DVRs to the mix.


the sat ones are true competitors. But as above- that market is lost already. Tivo should be getting a bigger market share of cable tv- their product is VASTLY superior to the crap cable rents. And when you factor in the fee to rent a cable box and then the dvr fee on top the tivo is all that much more a month (even amortizing the inital purchase price)


For example both TiVo and HR2X have reserved space. TiVo uses it to store extended commercials, DirecTV stores new release movies in 1080P. From what I understand, S3 can not even output 1080P.
Sorry, I didn't spend thousands for my HD Tvs to watch SD movies from the Netflix.
I don't think that price is a major reason people don't buy TiVo. Back in 1999 I paid $500 for the 14 hr S1 and that was one of the best purchases I ever made. TiVo sold more DVRs in 2000 when they sold in 2008. The major reason is that competition has more appealing set of features on their DVRs today.

ONLY the satelly competition. CABLE SUCKS for the most part. You are not living in reality if you think cable dvr's as a whole approach tivo or sat dvrs.

[urwathrtz]

Ya know I guess I never thought about it till now but I've been looking at the same menus since 2002. They are pretty stale.

[samo]

Having not used a cable dvr you dont have a clue how terrible as a whole they are. ....... You are not living in reality if you think cable dvr's as a whole approach tivo or sat dvrs.
And I admit that, I said at the beginning of my post that I know close to nothing about cable DVRs. But people who don't have a cable DVR are in the same boat when they are making a decision to get cable DVR or TiVo.
This why I said that majority of them will and do chose cable DVR. Not because cable DVRs are better or as good, they will chose them because on a paper they have more features that people understand and want.

[Kablemodem]

Ya know I guess I never thought about it till now but I've been looking at the same menus since 2002. The are pretty stale.

They still work, though, don't they? They've added a few enhancements, such as folders and the ability to once-click delete a show, so it's not as if they are completely stagnant. Who knows, maybe they are working on a whole new interface as we speak, but the current one still works just fine.

[MichaelK]

And I admit that, I said at the beginning of my post that I know close to nothing about cable DVRs. But people who don't have a cable DVR are in the same boat when they are making a decision to get cable DVR or TiVo.
This why I said that majority of them will and do chose cable DVR. Not because cable DVRs are better or as good, they will chose them because on a paper they have more features that people understand and want.


and that's exactly why tivo needs to explain to the masses why the 1-2 coffe's a month is worth it. They need to explain how they have other features and are more user friendly then the cable company dvrs. Maybe they need an "i'm a tivo" and "i'm a cable co dvr" commerical like the mac/pc one?

[MichaelK]

They still work, though, don't they? They've added a few enhancements, such as folders and the ability to once-click delete a show, so it's not as if they are completely stagnant. Who knows, maybe they are working on a whole new interface as we speak, but the current one still works just fine.

i thought the same myslef as well until the recent change where "more about..." on pause sends you to beta/tivo search. Play around in that for 5 minutes then exit out to the normal tivo menus. The text on the current menu's is bordering on painfull to look at after looking at the text that beta/tivo search uses. It's very distracting and unpleasant when you compare them in quick succession like that.

So if nothing else, can't they make the TEXT on the menus in that same manner and then downrez for the few people that have hooked up their HD boxes to SD tv's? Why is that such a big deal?

(hopefully since pony is asking about ditching hybrid mode- they are working on some significant changes to resolutions because something about this is in the works)

[deandashl]

From what I've read on these forums most people who complain about TiVo are one of two people.....

1. Never had a TiVo

2. Never had a cable DVR

I said MOST people.


As someone who has now had both, cable DVR's are terrible. So bad, I would almost say that my Comcast MOTO DVR should not have left "beta" testing until about a year ago. Considering that this DVR has been out for about 6 years, that's pretty bad.

My TiVo is superior in every way except it doesn't have pip during menu's. Considering I don't spend hours a week fixing my To Do list anymore I really don't need it. But none the less TiVo WILL have pip menu's eventually, it's already in testing.

It's funny to hear people who have had TiVo for ten years complain about them. It's VERY amusing to hear cable DVR people (paying on avg. $16/month) complaining TiVo is too "expensive".

I DON'T see a lot of posts about people who left cable DVR's to TiVo and regret it.

[fallingwater]

(Moxi's) guide and how you schedule recordings though is a bit convoluted according to the initial hands on I have seen.

Moxi's GUI and guide are like none other. Moxi may have the only EPG totally integrated as the entry point into its menus. It's totally subjective but now that I'm used to it I like it. It utilizes a consistent logical connectivity but does require a short but steep learning curve.

No one, IMHO, has yet equalled ReplayTV in accessing recording features directly from its easy to read EPG. Moxi and TiVo are tied for legibility as different as they are. Both can be used with ZOOM to enable easier reading from across the room.

For a long time I shunned TiVo's grid guide as wuthless, but thanks to enlightenment at the link below and bfdtv's informative followup PM I've learned that it's a viable alternative.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16364426#post16364426

I'm sending this via PM so as not to clutter the Moxi thread.

Thanks for posting. I was totally wrong regarding both TiVo's grid guide's ability to go back in time and using a high-def TV's ZOOM to enhance legibility with either style of TiVo's EPG.

It's been awhile since I last used TiVo's grid guide. Has one of TiVo's software updates upgraded the grid guide's capabilities and the screen position of either style of guide when used with ZOOM? Now the grid guide is a contender and ZOOM works with both! :)

TiVo last updated the appearance of the grid guide in September, 2007, but it has not changed since. The ability to use << and >> for 90min skip and replay/skip for 24hr skip were added with software updates between September 2007 and July 2008. TiVo also added the ability to browse the guide while watching recordings, something the original 8.1.7 software could not do.

I would guess that you tried the grid guide right out of the box with the original 8.1.7 software, but not again after your box was updated with the current software. It's also possible that had your TiVo set to native mode; if your TiVo is set to native mode, then the grid guide looks quite different when tuned to SD (480i) channels.

Performance in the grid guide was also improved significantly in July 2008 and again in December, 2008. It was slow as molasses in the original TiVo software -- virtually unusable, imo -- but now it is much better. It's still slow compared to Dish Network's ViP622/ViP722 guide, but navigation is faster than some other guides out there, especially once you learn to use << and >> for 90 min skip, replay/skip for 24hr skip, and channel +/- to page up and down through the guide.

Hopefully, any next-generation TiVo software will also add record indicators (its main oversight), genre highlighting, and a picture window, as seen in their Java software for Comcast:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2294/2126646108_7b9e2d4104.jpg?v=0

Implement that in 16:9 with 2.5hrs of program information (up from 1.5hrs minutes) and I'll be satisfied. :)

[MickeS]

Many years ago I wrote a message here on the forum asking why TiVo didn't make the Now Playing screen more like their live guide. I am still not sure why they haven't. Maybe with the advent of 16:9 TVs and the TiVo Search (which has a similar layout), they will do it.