Dollhouse - Haunted - 4/24/09

[Aniketos]

For a "filler" episode that was damn good. One thing that I mentioned a few weeks ago is that I wanted them to do is make us start to feel for the non-dolls, and these past two episodes have really made me sympathetic for Adelle and Topher. I LOVED Topher in this episode. He's been kind of growing on me for a couple episodes.

God now I'm invested in this show. Please don't get canceled.

[Peter000]

The whole thing was pretty disturbing... first the life after death thing, and being so lonely and out of touch that Topher had to program a best friend. And he only gets to do it once a year.

I wasn't feeling it this episode. Somewhat of a letdown after last week.

[brermike]

Based on the preview, I wasn't looking forward to this episode as much as the last few. I ended up really enjoying it! I thought the life after death idea was done well and the Topher loneliness angle was quite touching. I'll be sad if this show isn't renewed.

[MickeS]

I liked this episode a lot. I kinda hope they let the storyline with the investigation of the Dollhouse by the detective be the only ongoing storyline right now, and don't get caught up again in the stuff about the Dolls remembering their previous lives (kinda looks like that's wrapped up).

The idea with life after death was interesting, and the whodunnit was reasonably well done. I thought the supporting characters in this episode did a great job.

Also, Eliza Dushku has never looked better. She had the perfect hair and makeup in this episode.

[Aniketos]

I liked this episode a lot. I kinda hope they let the storyline with the investigation of the Dollhouse by the detective be the only ongoing storyline right now, and don't get caught up again in the stuff about the Dolls remembering their previous lives (kinda looks like that's wrapped up).

The idea with life after death was interesting, and the whodunnit was reasonably well done. I thought the supporting characters in this episode did a great job.

Also, Eliza Dushku has never looked better. She had the perfect hair and makeup in this episode.

No way that line is wrapped up, that's the point of the show. I agree about Eliza she looked really good.

[Amnesia]

Also, Eliza Dushku has never looked better. She had the perfect hair and makeup in this episode.I also thought her acting was pretty good. Maybe it's the whole "self-aware" part of it (the character she was playing knowing that she doesn't "belong" in Echo), but I thought she was very believable.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I also thought her acting was pretty good. Maybe it's the whole "self-aware" part of it (the character she was playing knowing that she doesn't "belong" in Echo), but I thought she was very believable.
I thought so early on, but as the episode progressed she became increasingly less Margaret and more Eliza.

And, as usual, Dichen Lachman just blew her off the screen. Too bad she didn't play Echo! That could have taken the show to a whole 'nother level.

[laria]

I thought so early on, but as the episode progressed she became increasingly less Margaret and more Eliza.
Yeah, I thought she did a really good job playing Margaret. She did slip into Eliza mode a few times, notably when the son tried to kiss her and she said "I gotta go"... I was like, no way someone as proper as Margaret is going to say "I gotta". :)

[Amnesia]

I thought so early on, but as the episode progressed she became increasingly less Margaret and more Eliza.I certainly agree that Eliza's best work was in her early scenes---at the Dollhouse and the funeral...

[Aniketos]

I thought so early on, but as the episode progressed she became increasingly less Margaret and more Eliza.

And, as usual, Dichen Lachman just blew her off the screen. Too bad she didn't play Echo! That could have taken the show to a whole 'nother level.

Exactly. Eliza plays Eliza, Sierra plays the imprint.

[Graymalkin]

I think Dichen Lachman has an advantage in that no one has seen her on TV before. She doesn't have a well-known persona like Eliza.

OTOH, Eliza simply may not be good enough of an actress to overcome her "star" persona and bury herself into a character.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I think Dichen Lachman has an advantage in that no one has seen her on TV before. She doesn't have a well-known persona like Eliza.
But she also doesn't have the same persona every time we see her on the screen. She can really change her character, seemingly effortlessly.

When Eliza does manage to change her character at all, it tends not to stick very long, and then she slips back into the same old shtick.

Which is fine, in many roles...the reason we want to see Eliza Dushka is to see Eliza Dushka. There's certainly a place for that kind of personality-based acting. But this role is most definitely not that place. It needs a chameleon.

[Aniketos]

I'm concerned that the real murderer got away, "King's Ransom" was obviously "Bad Horse" (the thoroughbred of sin) in disguise. I haven't quite figured out his motives, however.

[justen_m]

Decent episode. I found the main arch a bit tedious, but enjoyed the Topher/Sierra interaction, and the last scene with boss lady and security dude watching them was nicely done. I think this show has done a good job fleshing out the secondary characters.

[aaronw]

I did enjoy in a melancholy way the Topher / Sierra thing... he I guess has a hard time making friends, so he has to "make" friends. I wonder if that twinkie with the candles at the end was because the one time a year he does his 'debug' it's on his birthday.

[Fleegle]

I'm concerned that the real murderer got away, "King's Ransom" was obviously "Bad Horse" (the thoroughbred of sin) in disguise. I haven't quite figured out his motives, however.


::Golf clap:

Beautiful, man, just beautiful!

[DevdogAZ]

I enjoyed this episode. Liked the angle of solving the mystery, and I liked how we saw a different side of Topher.

[ct1]

I'm still digesting the Topher = Joss angle someone pointed out last thread...

Sometimes he just wants to stop programming Dolls to act for him and just have fun.

[DevdogAZ]

Two more observations:

1. Margaret's son mentioned that he was a client of the Dollhouse - in Manhattan. So we've already known that there are multiple Dollhouses. Now we know where at least one of them is.

2. We've now seen Adelle and Topher taking advantage of their position in the Dollhouse and making use of Dolls. Isn't it just a matter of time before Boyd or one of the other staff takes avails themselves of the services of a Doll?

[Bulldog7]

I'm still digesting the Topher = Joss angle someone pointed out last thread...

Sometimes he just wants to stop programming Dolls to act for him and just have fun.

When Topher and Sierra were discussing Sci-Fi and something like "it's bad sci-fi or just good storytelling" was said, I thought of the world vs. Joss. People have always tried to belittle his shows as 'bad sci-fi', but always they are undoubtedly good storytelling.

[Alfer]

Looks like the Dollhouse ratings keep on sinking...when will they finally pull the plug is the next question.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/04/25/friday-ratings-dollhouse-sinks-to-series-lows-ghost-whisperer-wins-again/17382

[MickeS]

I did enjoy in a melancholy way the Topher / Sierra thing... he I guess has a hard time making friends, so he has to "make" friends. I wonder if that twinkie with the candles at the end was because the one time a year he does his 'debug' it's on his birthday.

I am still convinced that Topher is a doll.

[rgr]

But she also doesn't have the same persona every time we see her on the screen. She can really change her character, seemingly effortlessly.

When Eliza does manage to change her character at all, it tends not to stick very long, and then she slips back into the same old shtick.I thought that the idea of the imprints not "sticking" on Echo was one of the things that made her unique, and troublesome to the Dollhouse management. So it should come as no surprise that her underlying original personality should come out under stress - such as being kissed by what the imprint saw as her son.

[Peter000]

I thought that the idea of the imprints not "sticking" on Echo was one of the things that made her unique, and troublesome to the Dollhouse management. So it should come as no surprise that her underlying original personality should come out under stress - such as being kissed by what the imprint saw as her son.

Great rationalization for terrible acting! But they really make it obvious when the imprint slips. It's not something that is subtle, but bang on the head obvious with some sort of visual flash.

[Hunter Green]

I think Dichen Lachman has an advantage in that no one has seen her on TV before. She doesn't have a well-known persona like Eliza.
This is the first show I've ever seen Eliza in, and I agree with those who think we should have less short-skirts and more actress in our Echo. It can't be all preconceptions when I didn't come to the show with any about her.

I'm still digesting the Topher = Joss angle someone pointed out last thread...
While it's a great insight, it's key to note that it's just something a fan came up with, and it doesn't mean everything Topher does is Joss sublimating himself, just that sometimes Joss seems to be using Topher to comment on himself, or letting bits of himself slip into Topher. But sometimes Joss will also think "what should Topher do now?" and come up with story that results. I think it'd be easy to overanalyze Topher's every move.

[Amnesia]

While it's a great insight, it's key to note that it's just something a fan came up with (...)"Insight" implies that it's true. I'd call it an opinion.

[Robin]

I did enjoy in a melancholy way the Topher / Sierra thing... he I guess has a hard time making friends, so he has to "make" friends. I wonder if that twinkie with the candles at the end was because the one time a year he does his 'debug' it's on his birthday.

Yes, I thought that was pretty clear.

I love that he thinks he's being discrete when of course Adele knows exactly what he's up to. I was wondering during laser tag how it could possibly go undetected and was happy to see it wasn't.

I thought that the idea of the imprints not "sticking" on Echo was one of the things that made her unique, and troublesome to the Dollhouse management. So it should come as no surprise that her underlying original personality should come out under stress - such as being kissed by what the imprint saw as her son.

It's a fanwank, but I'll take it. :D

Poor Paul! "Have you found any other clients?" "Yes, one." Day-am.

[bryan314]

I am still convinced that Topher is a doll.

I thought so too for a while, but remember, he had a non-doll reaction to the memory drug.

[JYoung]

Which is fine, in many roles...the reason we want to see Eliza Dushka is to see Eliza Dushka. There's certainly a place for that kind of personality-based acting. But this role is most definitely not that place. It needs a chameleon.

I agree. I like Dushku a lot but I'm not blinded to the fact that she isn't a perfect fit here and a chameleon would be better.

The obvious solution is to put her into more skimpy outfits, of course. ;)


2. We've now seen Adelle and Topher taking advantage of their position in the Dollhouse and making use of Dolls. Isn't it just a matter of time before Boyd or one of the other staff takes avails themselves of the services of a Doll?

We've already seen Sierra's old handler do that and look what happened to him! :eek: ;)

In Adelle's case, it appeared to be a disguised transaction. Not sure if money changed hands or not though.

In Topher's case, I don't think he even had sex with Sierra. He just wanted a friend and Adelle basically considered it a perk so Topher essentially has tacit approval.



Poor Paul! "Have you found any other clients?" "Yes, one." Day-am.

Oh, that was another kick in crotch moment to Ballard, wasn't it?

I think that this was an interesting look into a different application of the Dollhouse technology and shows the different needs of the people who use Dolls.
Margaret wanted closure and Topher wanted a friend.

[Lori]

Looks like the Dollhouse ratings keep on sinking...when will they finally pull the plug is the next question.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/04/25/friday-ratings-dollhouse-sinks-to-series-lows-ghost-whisperer-wins-again/17382

Must you?

[Lori]

I'm concerned that the real murderer got away, "King's Ransom" was obviously "Bad Horse" (the thoroughbred of sin) in disguise. I haven't quite figured out his motives, however.

Bad Horse needs no motive.

Bad Horse is just bad. :)

[MickeS]

I think that this was an interesting look into a different application of the Dollhouse technology and shows the different needs of the people who use Dolls.
Margaret wanted closure and Topher wanted a friend.

In the case of Margaret, definitely different in that she had a whole personality of a deceased person, and knew it. They have not shown anyone like her before.

But in the case of Topher, no. Sierra had a standard Doll procedure done, and was on a very standard Doll mission, except for the identity of the client.

[madscientist]

What I thought was interesting about the Topher bit was that he let someone else pick the doll; the choice could have been male or female. So, it really is just a friendship thing, and not a "friends with benefits" thing (unless Topher would be happy either way... NTTAWWT!)

No doubt the Dollhouse is just as happy to let him have his fake friend for a day and keep him tightly under wraps, than to have him lonely and perhaps wandering the streets looking to cure it.

[Amnesia]

What I thought was interesting about the Topher bit was that he let someone else pick the doll; the choice could have been male or female.Well...he certainly knows as well as anyone which dolls were available, etc. He easily could have directed the conversation towards Sierra (I know I would).

[Rob Helmerichs]

What I thought was interesting about the Topher bit was that he let someone else pick the doll; the choice could have been male or female. So, it really is just a friendship thing, and not a "friends with benefits" thing (unless Topher would be happy either way... NTTAWWT!)
I wondered about that myself. For the most part, Sierra was pretty guyish (especially in the way she physically comported herself), but at times they seemed just a mite more...affectionate than one would expect. I wondered if the ambiguity was deliberate.

[Hunter Green]

"Insight" implies that it's true. I'd call it an opinion.
I don't think the word "insight" means what you think it means.

[KyleLC]

I don't think the word "insight" means what you think it means.I think it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

[madscientist]

Well...he certainly knows as well as anyone which dolls were available, etc. He easily could have directed the conversation towards Sierra (I know I would).He could have, but it didn't seem that he did. Also, apparently this happens every year on his birthday so there's no way he could have planned to do it when the "least recently used" doll was one he liked... even if he could expect that would be the criteria used. In fact, given his setup ("need to run a diagnostic test") you would expect them to choose a doll which is the least in demand/valuable/whatever.

To Rob's point: I agree that some of Sierra's behavior would be a bit... odd... if the doll were male. One thing he could do is adjust the programming once he knew which doll was chosen. I don't know that you could have a generic personality that you could plop down on any doll (male or female) and have it work well (according to things they've said in previous episodes).

So, while I guess we don't know that there weren't "benefits", we know that wasn't Topher's primary motivation.

[DUDE_NJX]

Does anyone really think Sierra is hot?
I'd even take the boss lady any day over that chick.
Sure, taste is subjective, and I think she's kinda ugly.

[Amnesia]

I don't think the word "insight" means what you think it means.I agree with Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insighthttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight). It means " the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively".

If you say that someone has insight, or understands the inner nature of something, that to me says that you believe the person is correct. If they are wrong, they are not really understanding the inner nature.

[Amnesia]

Does anyone really think Sierra is hot?Yes. She is the second-most attractive woman in the 'house, after Dr. Saunders (scars and all).

[cheesesteak]

She did slip into Eliza mode a few times, notably when the son tried to kiss her and she said "I gotta go"... I was like, no way someone as proper as Margaret is going to say "I gotta". :)
I know nothing about how tvv shows work but isn't it the director's job to make sure that Eliza remains the character and not slip back to one of her "crutch" characters? Maybe she's not the world's greatest actress but the director should make sure there's no character creep in her scenes.

This episode pretty much did nothing for me.

Sierra and Boyd are the only two characters I care about at this point.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I know nothing about how tvv shows work but isn't it the director's job to make sure that Eliza remains the character and not slip back to one of her "crutch" characters? Maybe she's not the world's greatest actress but the director should make sure there's no character creep in her scenes.
But the director only has to work with what he has to work with, and the schedule of weekly television is brutal...they just don't have time to keep trying until they get it right, over and over.

That's why Kevin Costner's accent comes and goes in Robin Hood...the director kept trying to get him to do it right, and finally gave up and had him do it American-style. Costner was just never going to sound British. But they couldn't afford to go back and re-shoot all the scenes where he was trying in vain to sound British. Likewise, Dushka just doesn't have the range to do multiple personalities well, but given the concept of the show, there's not much they can do about it at this point. And the director has the least blame of anybody; he's handed a script and a cast and told, "Go to work."

[BitbyBlit]

She did slip into Eliza mode a few times, notably when the son tried to kiss her and she said "I gotta go"... I was like, no way someone as proper as Margaret is going to say "I gotta". :)

I suppose that depends on whether or not she was ad-libbing. If that was what was in the script, then it's the writers' fault. Or maybe that was their intent, and Eliza was supposed to be out of character.

[hapdrastic]

Does anyone really think Sierra is hot?
I'd even take the boss lady any day over that chick.
Sure, taste is subjective, and I think she's kinda ugly.

Yes...and I also think "the boss lady" is attractive as well. Both, moreso, than Eliza Dushku (although she's hot too).

[BitbyBlit]

Great rationalization for terrible acting! But they really make it obvious when the imprint slips. It's not something that is subtle, but bang on the head obvious with some sort of visual flash.

They have made it obvious when the imprint slips, but that doesn't mean they will always make it obvious. Now that Echo has "resolved her issues", the buildup of her core personality might not be as dramatic, but also more permanent.

[TAsunder]

I didn't enjoy this episode. Perhaps I was too caught up on the good premise that was spoiled by a cliche-riddled murder mystery / family secrets plot. The idea of this sort of quasi-reincarnation is a lot more interesting than the treatment it was given. I was convinced early on that Topher had imprinted Sierra with his own personality...

[JYoung]

In the case of Margaret, definitely different in that she had a whole personality of a deceased person, and knew it. They have not shown anyone like her before.

But in the case of Topher, no. Sierra had a standard Doll procedure done, and was on a very standard Doll mission, except for the identity of the client.

The point was, that these storylines really didn't have anything to do with the forced prostitution/sex dolls element that some people seem to fixate on.
Even if Topher had sex with Sierra (which doesn't seem likely from what we saw), that wasn't the primary need he wanted fulfilled.

Likewise, Dushka

Dushku.

[DevdogAZ]

I think Sierra comes in 5th in hotness behind (in no particular order): Echo, Ms. Dewitt, November and Dr. Saunders. She's just not that attractive to me.

[DUDE_NJX]

I think Sierra comes in 5th in hotness behind (in no particular order): Echo, Ms. Dewitt, November and Dr. Saunders. She's just not that attractive to me.

^

[photoshopgrl]

I was convinced early on that Topher had imprinted Sierra with his own personality...
I hadn't thought of that until you said it but I think you might be right. Made himself a girl version of him because let's face it, the guy thinks he's the smartest man alive. :)

[DreadPirateRob]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't DeWitt say something at the end of the ep to the effect of Topher is allowed his yearly "debugging", but he's not allowed to "touch" (i.e. have sex with the doll) at the end?

[NJChris]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't DeWitt say something at the end of the ep to the effect of Topher is allowed his yearly "debugging", but he's not allowed to "touch" (i.e. have sex with the doll) at the end? I don't think so. I watched it again today with my mom and didn't hear or read(closed caption) that. Although that doesn't mean it wasnt there. :)

[ct1]

I think the nature of his relationship with the Doll would preclude thinking of her that way.

[Queue]

Do you think the Dolls can really go back to their old personality? In this episode it showed that the process to "back up" Margaret took a year and a half of painful brain scans. But in the first episode wasn't it only 3 months from the time that Caroline was talking to DeWitt and the time that we saw Echo as a Doll?

Do you/we really think that the original personalities can be effectively backed up in such a short time if it took Margaret so long?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Do you think the Dolls can really go back to their old personality? In this episode it showed that the process to "back up" Margaret took a year and a half of painful brain scans.
I don't think so. I think she just had regular scans so her "back-up" would always be relatively up-to-date.

[DevdogAZ]

Do you think the Dolls can really go back to their old personality? In this episode it showed that the process to "back up" Margaret took a year and a half of painful brain scans. But in the first episode wasn't it only 3 months from the time that Caroline was talking to DeWitt and the time that we saw Echo as a Doll?

Do you/we really think that the original personalities can be effectively backed up in such a short time if it took Margaret so long?
I thought the only reason it took that long with Margaret was because she kept coming in for regular updates so that when she eventually did die, her "memories" would have the most current information possible. And even then, we saw a couple of instances where something had happened to Margaret in the 2-3 weeks preceding her death and Echo couldn't "remember" those things because they were more recent than the last update.

[Hunter Green]

I agree with Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insighthttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insight). It means " the act or result of apprehending the inner nature of things or of seeing intuitively".
I also agree with Webster, and stand by my understanding of what I said, not your misunderstanding of what I said. But by all means, enjoy yourself. Have a cookie: they're round.
http://analytics.mikesukmanowsky.com/analytics/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/cookie.gif

[danterner]

I didn't enjoy this episode. Perhaps I was too caught up on the good premise that was spoiled by a cliche-riddled murder mystery / family secrets plot. The idea of this sort of quasi-reincarnation is a lot more interesting than the treatment it was given.

I agree - I would have preferred a more straight-up exploration of the "if you're rich and dastardly enough, you can achieve immortality through transplanting your imprint through a series of disposable bodies" sci-fi trope. I didn't really need the Agatha Christie murder mystery overlay.

I was convinced early on that Topher had imprinted Sierra with his own personality...

That's an awesome idea! Makes it even more creepy and sad. I don't know if it is what Whedon intended, but it should have been.

[Robin]

Does anyone really think Sierra is hot?
I'd even take the boss lady any day over that chick.
Sure, taste is subjective, and I think she's kinda ugly.

She's not a cookie cutter barbie doll, but she's very attractive in her own way, IMO.

[photoshopgrl]

As a female, I can appreciate the unusual look Sierra has. She's quite attractive but not in the normal way I guess. Not like Eliza anyhow who has the basic good looks.

[FilmCritic3000]

She's not a cookie cutter barbie doll, but she's very attractive in her own way, IMO.

+1

Her unique look makes her very attractive.

[Bai Shen]

Sierra varies for me. Some shots, she's hot, in others, she's not. It's really weird.

[DouglasPHill]

The boss lady is hot.

[Steveknj]

The whole thing was pretty disturbing... first the life after death thing, and being so lonely and out of touch that Topher had to program a best friend. And he only gets to do it once a year.

I wasn't feeling it this episode. Somewhat of a letdown after last week.


It was, I agree, but I think the point of the episode was to show how the whole concept could be abused.

[Aniketos]

Whedon extended the Topher analysis.

“Most of the people (in the Dollhouse) seem to have trouble with what they’re doing, thank God. Except for Topher,” he said, pointing out that Topher enjoys creating people and then letting them dance on puppet strings, adding with a chuckle, “Who could THAT be based on?”


I'd say it's not really an opinion anymore when its straight out of Whedon's mouth.

Source: http://www.hitfix.com/articles/2009-4-16-paleyfest-09-dollhouse

[busyba]

Here's what bugged me... they were talking about how the way they used the tech was akin to creating "eternal life", but it really wasn't.

Let's say I do what that lady did and make periodic backups of my brain, and then when I die, have the latest backup be imprinted onto some new body.... I personally would have no awareness of this new body's life. I would still be just as dead and gone as if I never did anything like that. What is living on is a copy of me, but as a matter of my personal perspective, it's not me.

"Eternal life" is only appealing if you can actually live eternally. This was simply creating the illusion of eternal life from the perspective of an outside observer.

Not that it doesn't have it's own merits and purposes, but it's not even remotely the same thing.

[alpacaboy]

Now that you put it that way, it feels a little like Whedon's treatment of vampires - it's not really eternal life for the one bitten. A demon inhabits their body, and I think gets their memories...

[DevdogAZ]

Here's what bugged me... they were talking about how the way they used the tech was akin to creating "eternal life", but it really wasn't.

Let's say I do what that lady did and make periodic backups of my brain, and then when I die, have the latest backup be imprinted onto some new body.... I personally would have no awareness of this new body's life. I would still be just as dead and gone as if I never did anything like that. What is living on is a copy of me, but as a matter of my personal perspective, it's not me.

"Eternal life" is only appealing if you can actually live eternally. This was simply creating the illusion of eternal life from the perspective of an outside observer.

Not that it doesn't have it's own merits and purposes, but it's not even remotely the same thing.
Depends on how you look at it. If "you" is really just your mind/personality/memories and your body is just the vessel, then it really would be living on after your body died.

[MickeS]

Depends on how you look at it. If "you" is really just your mind/personality/memories and your body is just the vessel, then it really would be living on after your body died.

That's how I saw it (and see it). If someone could transfer themselves from body to body, that would be eternal life. A person IS the mind/personality/memories IMO.

The outside observer would not see it as eternal life. The person would.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Depends on how you look at it. If "you" is really just your mind/personality/memories and your body is just the vessel, then it really would be living on after your body died.
And in reality, that's what happens every time they use the transporter in Star Trek--the original is killed and a duplicate is made at the destination (although as far as I know they only barely ever touched on that, and then only with a crazy person!).

[Hunter Green]

For that matter, most of your body's cells die and are replaced many times over the course of your life anyway. Sure, not all of them are, but even if they all were, it wouldn't change anything.

Then again, your mind's memories are being lost and rebuilt all the time too. So the continuity of the body existing through gradual replacement is not that much different from the continuity of the mind doing almost the same thing.

In any case, if I could get my mind backed up and restored into a new body every fifty years, I wouldn't be quibbling about whether that was truly eternal life or not, I'd be writing a check.

[eddyj]

"Eternal life" is only appealing if you can actually live eternally. This was simply creating the illusion of eternal life from the perspective of an outside observer.
I am reading a book now where people's consciousness and memories could be transferred to a younger body (in this case grown from their own DNA, and improved). I'd take this as eternal life, personally.

[Craigbob]

I am reading a book now where people's consciousness and memories could be transferred to a younger body (in this case grown from their own DNA, and improved). I'd take this as eternal life, personally.

Sounds like Robert Sawyer's Rollback. An excellent book, but not his best.

[dcheesi]

Another book that deals with this issue is "Altered Carbon". The plot is actually remarkably (suspiciously?) similar to this episode: wealthy person gets killed, is restored from backup, hires someone to investigate his "murder". Although it's primarily an action-thriller, it explores many of the issues raised here in some depth. A very good read.

[justen_m]

Another book that deals with this issue is "Altered Carbon". The plot is actually remarkably (suspiciously?) similar to this episode: wealthy person gets killed, is restored from backup, hires someone to investigate his "murder". Although it's primarily an action-thriller, it explores many of the issues raised here in some depth. A very good read.

I agree. That was Richard Morgan's best book (well, of the three that I've read). If you like action and sci fi, I recommend this. It isn't hard sci fi, it is more of a detective story. I don't read mysteries normally but I enjoyed this one. I'm more of a Stephen Baxter fan.

Oh, btw, I think Sierra is totally hawt. Hotter than Eliza

[Rob Helmerichs]

I agree. That was Richard Morgan's best book (well, of the three that I've read). If you like action and sci fi, I recommend this. It isn't hard sci fi...
Wow, I thought it was about the hardest sci-fi I've ever read. In a good way, and unlike some hard sci-fi writers it's not all about the hard sci-fi (as you say, he layers on a lot of noir detective stuff), but there are very few writers working today who go as deep into the science (both as science and as component of culture) as Morgan does in that series.

[justen_m]

Wow, I thought it was about the hardest sci-fi I've ever read. In a good way, and unlike some hard sci-fi writers it's not all about the hard sci-fi (as you say, he layers on a lot of noir detective stuff), but there are very few writers working today who go as deep into the science (both as science and as component of culture) as Morgan does in that series.

Hmm. Maybe I need to read it again. It seemed like a detective novel set in a sci-fi background. The science was good and well-thought out. Except it is number four on my to-read list. I haven't read it since it was first published.

Ok, I'm bumping this up to number two. I'll read it again once I finish _Spin State_. Which is remarkably similar. Which I'm reading for the second time. It's good. If you like Altered Carbon, try Spin State.

[Bai Shen]

Here's what bugged me... they were talking about how the way they used the tech was akin to creating "eternal life", but it really wasn't.

Let's say I do what that lady did and make periodic backups of my brain, and then when I die, have the latest backup be imprinted onto some new body.... I personally would have no awareness of this new body's life. I would still be just as dead and gone as if I never did anything like that. What is living on is a copy of me, but as a matter of my personal perspective, it's not me.

"Eternal life" is only appealing if you can actually live eternally. This was simply creating the illusion of eternal life from the perspective of an outside observer.

Not that it doesn't have it's own merits and purposes, but it's not even remotely the same thing.

I was thinking the same thing while watching it. Reminds me of that Seventh Day movie with Arnold.

[Bai Shen]

Another book that deals with this issue is "Altered Carbon". The plot is actually remarkably (suspiciously?) similar to this episode: wealthy person gets killed, is restored from backup, hires someone to investigate his "murder". Although it's primarily an action-thriller, it explores many of the issues raised here in some depth. A very good read.

That's on my list to read. One of these days I'll get to it.

[dcheesi]

Hmm. Maybe I need to read it again. It seemed like a detective novel set in a sci-fi background. The science was good and well-thought out. Except it is number four on my to-read list. I haven't read it since it was first published.

Ok, I'm bumping this up to number two. I'll read it again once I finish _Spin State_. Which is remarkably similar. Which I'm reading for the second time. It's good. If you like Altered Carbon, try Spin State.Have you read the followup novels? Much less of a detective-story vibe, more military/action oriented.

Anyway, I think maybe you two are operating on different definitions of the term " 'hard' S.F.". Rob's (and my) definition is all about how scientifically accurate/plausible the science/technology aspects of the setting are, not anything specifically about the plot. Altered Carbon is on the hard side compared to space operas and such; OTOH I wouldn't call it "hard SF" compared to some of the books I've read (eg. anything by Gregory Benford).

[GAViewer]

What if they loaded the backup into a new body (or doll) before original died? Would both copies be the same person? Especially since the original had memories of things that happened after the backup was made which is also true even if they wait for the original to die.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Anyway, I think maybe you two are operating on different definitions of the term " 'hard' S.F.". Rob's (and my) definition is all about how scientifically accurate/plausible the science/technology aspects of the setting are, not anything specifically about the plot. Altered Carbon is on the hard side compared to space operas and such; OTOH I wouldn't call it "hard SF" compared to some of the books I've read (eg. anything by Gregory Benford).
I would also say how much the writer extrapolates the technology, how thoroughly he thinks through the implications of it, and how thoroughly he integrates it into the society he postulates. Also, "hard" science fiction tends to derive the story from the technology, and let's face it, without the (invented) technology, in Altered Carbon there is no story whatsoever.

The great thing about Morgan is that while the science in his fiction is harder than diamond and it does drive the story, he does work hard to build a real story around it, instead of just using story as an excuse to show off the science (which is a sin many hard s-f writers commit).

[justen_m]

Have you read the followup novels? Much less of a detective-story vibe, more military/action oriented.

Anyway, I think maybe you two are operating on different definitions of the term " 'hard' S.F.". Rob's (and my) definition is all about how scientifically accurate/plausible the science/technology aspects of the setting are, not anything specifically about the plot. Altered Carbon is on the hard side compared to space operas and such; OTOH I wouldn't call it "hard SF" compared to some of the books I've read (eg. anything by Gregory Benford).

I've read Broken Angels, but that is it. And Market Forces, but that is a different world.

Hard scifi. I won't debate that term. Not worth it. I like space operas as much as military sci-fi. David Weber is great. Honor Harrington.

Never read anything be Benford. Suggestions?

[Bai Shen]

...IN SPACE! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne)

[eddyj]

Sounds like Robert Sawyer's Rollback. An excellent book, but not his best.

Another book that deals with this issue is "Altered Carbon". The plot is actually remarkably (suspiciously?) similar to this episode: wealthy person gets killed, is restored from backup, hires someone to investigate his "murder". Although it's primarily an action-thriller, it explores many of the issues raised here in some depth. A very good read.
Read both, but I was talking about Jon Scalzi's Old Man's War.

[Amnesia]

Read both, but I was talking about Jon Scalzi's Old Man's War.Just read that and the two sequels.

[busyba]

I am reading a book now where people's consciousness and memories could be transferred to a younger body (in this case grown from their own DNA, and improved). I'd take this as eternal life, personally.

Yeah, and that I probably would agree with as qualifying as eternal life.

But in the Dollhouse universe, it's not the consciousness that's being transferred, it's just a copy of the memories.

[ct1]

But in the Dollhouse universe, it's not the consciousness that's being transferred, it's just a copy of the memories.

What's the difference?

Is the brain "hardware" or "software"? (in the Dollhouse universe)

[busyba]

What's the difference?

If the contents of your brain were copied into some other body, and then you died, would you continue to think you're alive or not?

In the process Eddy described, yes. In the Dollhouse process, no. (Presumably)

That's the difference.


Is the brain "hardware" or "software"? (in the Dollhouse universe)

I'd say the brain is hardware of the storage device variety.

The contents of the brain are software, since they seem to be able to be contained on portable hard drives.

[Craigbob]

Read both, but I was talking about Jon Scalzi's Old Man's War.

I actually have that as one of the e-books on my IPAQ waiting to be read. I'm currently working my way through StarFish by Peter Watts.

[DevdogAZ]

If the contents of your brain were copied into some other body, and then you died, would you continue to think you're alive or not?

In the process Eddy described, yes. In the Dollhouse process, no. (Presumably)

That's the difference.
So in your opinion, if you know that it's a new body, even if all your thoughts/memories/consciousness are otherwise intact, it's not "eternal life?"

[Rob Helmerichs]

So in your opinion, if you know that it's a new body, even if all your thoughts/memories/consciousness are otherwise intact, it's not "eternal life?"
Not for you. You're dead. Some other guy is running around with all your intact thoughts/memories/consciousness.

Which is better than nothing, I suppose. But I'm kind of selfish when it comes to eternal life--I want it to be me, not some other guy. :D

[Bai Shen]

Here's some more food for thought.

Say that they can put your thoughts in a new body and it counts as the real you, and this happens when you die. What happens if someone else does it illegally? They could make a separate you and in effect have kidnapped you without anyone knowing.

Or what happens if you end up a castaway on some unnamed island. After several years, they make a new you(since you're obviously dead), and you finally come back to find yourself living your life.

[busyba]

So in your opinion, if you know that it's a new body, even if all your thoughts/memories/consciousness are otherwise intact, it's not "eternal life?"

That's not what I'm saying.

If you are aware that you are in a new body, that's fine, that's "eternal life".

But you are not aware of it, you're dead. Some copy of you is aware of it.

[busyba]

Which is better than nothing, I suppose. But I'm kind of selfish when it comes to eternal life--I want it to be me, not some other guy. :D

This. Exactly. +1 :D

[mrmike]

Not for you. You're dead. Some other guy is running around with all your intact thoughts/memories/consciousness.

Which is better than nothing, I suppose. But I'm kind of selfish when it comes to eternal life--I want it to be me, not some other guy. :D

That's not what I'm saying.

If you are aware that you are in a new body it, that's fine, that's "eternal life".

But you are not aware of it, you're dead. Some copy of you is aware of it.

I think there's an inherent assumption about what being "you" entails here that I am not sure has a basis in scientific fact at this time.

[Amnesia]

Not for you. You're dead. Some other guy is running around with all your intact thoughts/memories/consciousness.No. You are your thoughts/memories/consciousness. If "some other guy" had all those things (and none of his own), then he wouldn't be some other guy, he'd be you.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I think there's an inherent assumption about what being "you" entails here that I am not sure has a basis in scientific fact at this time.
What's the problem? You die. Somebody else is created who is an exact duplicate of you. But you don't get to enjoy the benefits of being you, what with all the deadness.

Which is a much better deal for the somebody else who gets to be you than it is for you who gets to be dead.

[busyba]

I think there's an inherent assumption about what being "you" entails here that I am not sure has a basis in scientific fact at this time.

I'm sure that there are a great number of elements of this discussion that has no basis in scientific fact at this time. :D

[dcheesi]

No. You are your thoughts/memories/consciousness. If "some other guy" had all those things (and none of his own), then he wouldn't be some other guy, he'd be you.The really the core issue here: what defines "you"? Is it your brain patterns? Your whole body? Some sort of immaterial "soul"? Everyone has different opinions on this.

[busyba]

But you don't get to enjoy the benefits of being you, what with all the deadness.

That sounds like something Joss would write. :)

[DevdogAZ]

I think there's an inherent assumption about what being "you" entails here that I am not sure has a basis in scientific fact at this time.

The really the core issue here: what defines "you"? Is it your brain patterns? Your whole body? Some sort of immaterial "soul"? Everyone has different opinions on this.
Exactly.

[stellie93]

What's the problem? You die. Somebody else is created who is an exact duplicate of you. But you don't get to enjoy the benefits of being you, what with all the deadness.

Which is a much better deal for the somebody else who gets to be you than it is for you who gets to be dead.

But the somebody else has to be you and can no longer be himself. (if it's permanent) So maybe he's the one who's dead.

Also, there could be several of you "alive" at once.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Also, there could be several of you "alive" at once.
But that's where the selfish comes into play. I don't care about other mes. I want to be a me that's alive.

[aaronw]

Or, going the 'Dark City' route, what is 'us' - is it just the sum of our memories/knowledge/experience, or is it more? Will it always end up the same way? Is your conscious your "RAM", so to say, that can be regenerated from hard disk at any time, or is it something more ephemeral?

[eddyj]

Here's some more food for thought.

Say that they can put your thoughts in a new body and it counts as the real you, and this happens when you die.

Read Orson Scott Card's short story Fat Farm for a good take on this...

[dcheesi]

Read Orson Scott Card's short story Fat Farm for a good take on this...Or his novel The Worthing Saga.

[eddyj]

Or his novel The Worthing Saga.

All 4 versions of it! :p

[Bai Shen]

I've seen a couple different takes on the concept I posted. I jus' wanted to get others opinion on it, as it's the "eternal life" we've been debating.

[Hunter Green]

But that's where the selfish comes into play. I don't care about other mes. I want to be a me that's alive.
I think the whole point though is that the other guy who is alive also thinks he is you. The question that you're dodging is, is he wrong? You assume he is wrong, or more to the point, you define "you" such that he is wrong. Since he has the exact same thoughts as you, would he agree? I suspect no: he'd be just as firmly convinced he's "you", and furthermore the only "you" there is, just as you are now firmly convinced of that. Which is an interesting paradox.

Since we've gone into book club mode, the definitive book for thoughts about these kinds of questions is The Mind's I (http://www.amazon.com/Minds-I-Fantasies-Reflections-Self/dp/0465030912/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241192013&sr=8-1) edited by Hofstader and Dennett, and I can't recommend it too highly.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I think the whole point though is that the other guy who is alive also thinks he is you. The question that you're dodging is, is he wrong? You assume he is wrong, or more to the point, you define "you" such that he is wrong. Since he has the exact same thoughts as you, would he agree? I suspect no: he'd be just as firmly convinced he's "you", and furthermore the only "you" there is, just as you are now firmly convinced of that. Which is an interesting paradox.
Not really a paradox at all. I understand that he will think he's me as much as I do. And I understand that in any meaningful sense, he will be as much me as I am. He's not wrong at all; I just don't care what he thinks. I would still very much rather that I be me than that he be me.

[Amnesia]

I would still very much rather that I be me than that he be me.Why do you think it has to be one or the other? They'd both be you.

[jschuur]

That sounds very much like the core of the magic trick in the movie The Prestige.
Alfred Borden entered the machine that would duplicate him, knowing that the original of him would drown, and the copy would simply think he was teleported.

[BobB]

Does anyone really think Sierra is hot?

Hell, yeah! De gustibus non disputandum, I guess.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Why do you think it has to be one or the other? They'd both be you.
Well, in the situation that began this whole discussion, it was like on the show--you're dead, and your memories had been backed up, and they're restored. Obviously, it doesn't have to be one or the other, and if it's not, then I have no objections to multiple mes running around. The universe would certainly be a better place.



:D

[busyba]

I wouldn't want someone else running around knowing all my passwords. :)

[hapdrastic]

That sounds very much like the core of the magic trick in the movie The Prestige.
Alfred Borden entered the machine that would duplicate him, knowing that the original of him would drown, and the copy would simply think he was teleported.

Except...maybe....

He is teleported, and a copy is created in the exact spot - how would you be able to tell?

[Hunter Green]

Not really a paradox at all. I understand that he will think he's me as much as I do. And I understand that in any meaningful sense, he will be as much me as I am. He's not wrong at all; I just don't care what he thinks. I would still very much rather that I be me than that he be me.
The paradox is hard to explain. It's not that the way you think tends to make you very strongly associate your sense of identity with the particular body you're in at the moment. And it's not that that makes you insist that you are the only you, and a copy isn't you. It's that that very insistence, that very certainty, is why the copy, who thinks exactly the same way the original does, would reach the exact opposite conclusion the original did.

If this were a Lost thread, we would have to talk about how you'd feel if you went back in time three days and met your earlier self. Would only one of you be you? Thankfully, though, this isn't a Lost thread. :)