Pop-over advertising during recorded viewing

[notsoelite]

I thought I would be a TiVo fan forever and I always tout TiVo's interface and guide over cable whenever the discussion comes up -

But TiVo might have gone too far for me now... for the first time (at least for me) I get advertising OVER the show during viewing.

I have become used to advertising on my TiVo Central page, advertising in my Group folders and advertising at the end of my show. But advertising popping up and forcing my action DURING Celebrity Apprentice NOT during commercials is absolutely absurd. I am PAYING for my TiVo service and as if brand placement during and/or about a show isn't enough, I shouldn't have to have to see an ad that takes up approximately 1/8 of my TV screen while watching a show.

A giant BOO to TiVo. At least I only have to see ads in the cable guide on my TV's with Comcast boxes.

[Dan203]

It was probably a mistake. The ads that popup over commercials are controlled by information in the closed caption stream. If the station screwed up the time stamps on that information then it could cause the ad to popup at the wrong time. This has happened to a few other shows over the years, but it's rare and it's always been accidental.

Dan

[Ben_Jamin75]

I had this happen too. It was an ad for lifelock identity protection which was the subject of the competition on the show. I went to it out of curiosity; it had an option to record celebrity apprentice.

It really didn't bother me though, pressing clear on the remote will make the icon go away immediately.

[ZeoTiVo]

hhmmm, I wonder if there is more to this one.

Lifelock is the sponsor - Celebrity Apprentice has been heavy on in show product placement way before now.

[rainwater]

hhmmm, I wonder if there is more to this one.

Lifelock is the sponsor - Celebrity Apprentice has been heavy on in show product placement way before now.

It isn't a "mistake". Celebrity Apprentice sticks that stupid lifelock popup on the screen right during the middle of the show. This is what happens when you give advertisers control of TiVos with no repercussions.

[ZeoTiVo]

It isn't a "mistake". Celebrity Apprentice sticks that stupid lifelock popup on the screen right during the middle of the show. This is what happens when you give advertisers control of TiVos with no repercussions.

or when advertisers are desperate for new revenue somehow. I would boycott celebrity apprentice but do not watch it now. I watched the Amarosa/Piers flare up on Hulu and a little bit of gene Simmons as well.
This season gives me nightmares just from looking at a cast picture :eek:- I imagine ratings are way down on that show.

[steve614]

This feature has been known for some time. It's just not that many advertisers make use of it.
It is the thumbs up icon that appears in the upper right corner during a show, and if you hit thumbs up, you will be taken out of the show to see the advertisement. When you leave the ad, your taken right back to the show where you left off.

[rainwater]

This feature has been known for some time. It's just not that many advertisers make use of it.
It is the thumbs up icon that appears in the upper right corner during a show, and if you hit thumbs up, you will be taken out of the show to see the advertisement. When you leave the ad, your taken right back to the show where you left off.

The feature isn't new. But showing it in the middle of a show intentionally is. If you watched Celebrity Apprentice when the show was about Lifelock, it clearly wasn't an accident they were showing this popup DURING the show.

[notsoelite]

This feature has been known for some time. It's just not that many advertisers make use of it.
It is the thumbs up icon that appears in the upper right corner during a show, and if you hit thumbs up, you will be taken out of the show to see the advertisement. When you leave the ad, your taken right back to the show where you left off.

Yeah - it wasn't the little "thumbs up for more info" in the upper right corner. It was a huge ad in upper left HALF of the screen and about 1/4 height. The ad also stayed until I cleared it out.

I have three issues with this:

1. I pay, therefore advertising should be restricted. At a bare minimum of not during and in front of a show, no matter who's advertising is placed within, or is sponsoring said programming.

2. It was HUGE!

3. It did not clear until I cleared it. And I waited for more than a reasonable time before I hit clear.

[Resist]

Lifelock....Grrrrr. Their ex CEO had a criminal background. Just knowing that is why I would never use their service. Also that the Apprentice would showcase them has turned me off to the Apprentice TV show now.

[MichaelK]

...
1. I pay, therefore advertising should be restricted. At a bare minimum of not during and in front of a show, no matter who's advertising is placed within, or is sponsoring said programming.
...


2 and 3 i think are reasonable.

But unfortunately #1 means nothing now a days. We pay for most of the channels on cable yet they all have ads. I pay an ARM and a LEG to go to a baseball game yet there's ads all over and they even replace the scoreboard and other important info with ads at times. We pay for movies and they have ads. You can pay for satellite radio and some stations have ads.

And on and On and on.

Not sure that makes it right- but paying for things really means nothing in this day and age.

[notsoelite]

2 and 3 i think are reasonable.

But unfortunately #1 means nothing now a days.

I do agree with you on that, to a degree. In fact, almost entirely. But I feel that there should be a sanctity about no advertising during the show. For years we have been used to advertising during commercial breaks. When you pay for premium movie channels, you don't get advertising.

Clearly this is changing as quickly as our ways to view media, but TiVo just seems to, perhaps in an effort to survive, keep introducing ways to cross this line.

Even though the TiVo box is becoming a great way to view other media, (I pay for and use Netflix on my TiVo,) they need to remember that they are initially and perhaps debately, mostly a television-viewing device. Advertising belongs in commercial breaks. Not in commercial breaks and in front of the show.

Lets also not forget that when you go to a ball game you are entering a facility that is often paid for by a sponsor. I am talking about a recording device that I paid for for that sits inside MY home.

[steve614]

The feature isn't new. But showing it in the middle of a show intentionally is. If you watched Celebrity Apprentice when the show was about Lifelock, it clearly wasn't an accident they were showing this popup DURING the show.
I did watch that episode of CA and saw the pop-up. It didn't surprise me. When this feature was announced, it was discussed ad nauseam with people threatening to cancel their service if it ever came to fruition.
We should thank our lucky stars that we haven't seen it more often.

Yeah - it wasn't the little "thumbs up for more info" in the upper right corner.
I agree. It had to be bigger to include the text and graphic for the ad, but I don't think it took up THAT much more space. Of course, I'm only watching on an SD TV. I'm sure it does look huge on an HDTV.:p

[Dan203]

Wow! I'm not usually one to be anti-TiVo but these ads are getting a bit out of had. I didn't really mind this feature back when it was used every now and then to promote recording a new show. And I didn't really mind when they added the TiVo Central ad because it wasn't all that intrusive to my every day use. But then they added those star promotions in the groups and the adds in the delete dialog, then the "more about..." thing when you pause, and now this? It's getting to be too much.

I understand that TiVo needs to make money, but the TiVo UI is starting to look like some crappy web page over run with banner adds. There is a threshold that users will tolerate and I think TiVo is getting dangerously close to breaching it. I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but if ads popping up over programming become normal I'm seriously going to consider an alternative to TiVo when the next upgrade cycle comes around. :(

Dan

[rainwater]

I did watch that episode of CA and saw the pop-up. It didn't surprise me. When this feature was announced, it was discussed ad nauseam with people threatening to cancel their service if it ever came to fruition.
We should thank our lucky stars that we haven't seen it more often.


TiVo also claimed at the time that it wouldn't be shown during programming but only during commercials. I guess that isn't true anymore.

[lew]

TiVo also claimed at the time that it wouldn't be shown during programming but only during commercials. I guess that isn't true anymore.

I don't watch Celebrity Apprentice but isn't the distinction between the program and a commercial somewhat blurred? Aren't many of the tasks the equivalent of a commercial disguised as programming?

I look at it differently, this confirms Lifelock is paying for the segment and as far as the network is concerned the segment is the equivalent of a commercial.

[rainwater]

I don't watch Celebrity Apprentice but isn't the distinction between the program and a commercial somewhat blurred? Aren't many of the tasks the equivalent of a commercial disguised as programming?

No, there is no blurring. It was shown during the show. I don't care what they are talking about during the show. TiVo is the one who tried to assure users that the lines were clear but they have clearly not been very honest in this situation.

[bkdtv]

Wow! I'm not usually one to be anti-TiVo but these ads are getting a bit out of had. I didn't really mind this feature back when it was used every now and then to promote recording a new show. And I didn't really mind when they added the TiVo Central ad because it wasn't all that intrusive to my every day use. But then they added those star promotions in the groups and the adds in the delete dialog, then the "more about..." thing when you pause, and now this? It's getting to be too much.

I understand that TiVo needs to make money, but the TiVo UI is starting to look like some crappy web page over run with banner adds. There is a threshold that users will tolerate and I think TiVo is getting dangerously close to breaching it. I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but if ads popping up over programming become normal I'm seriously going to consider an alternative to TiVo when the next upgrade cycle comes around. :(These are my sentiments exactly.

I've already posted HD video demos of TiVo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&fmt=22) and Netflix on TiVo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCIKSj8bvY&fmt=22). After I upload the next video on pyTiVo/Streambaby, I'm going to upload a video showing the TiVo's advertising so potential customers know what to expect.

[lew]

No, there is no blurring. It was shown during the show. I don't care what they are talking about during the show. TiVo is the one who tried to assure users that the lines were clear but they have clearly not been very honest in this situation.

Sorry I didn't word my post better. My point is part of what you think is the show may be considered an extended commercial. A sponsor pays for a segment and may even control that segment. The product is promoted, displayed and demonstrated.

The lines may be clear. NBC may be the entity that isn't being 100% honest. Would you object if you got a pop-over during an infomercial?

[rainwater]

Sorry I didn't word my post better. My point is part of what you think is the show may be considered an extended commercial. A sponsor pays for a segment and may even control that segment. The product is promoted, displayed and demonstrated.

The lines may be clear. NBC may be the entity that isn't being 100% honest. Would you object if you got a pop-over during an infomercial?

It was shown during the boardroom segment of the show. There is no blurring of lines.

[lew]

Sorry I'm not clear. Two possibilities:

1) Tivo changed it's policy regarding ad pop-ups during a program.
2) The amount of money paid by the sponsor, and the terms of sponsorship, allowed NBC to classify the entire program as the equivalent of an infomercial.

I guess there is a third possiblity
3) NBC made a mistake and tivo didn't pick it up.

[scandia101]

But then they added those star promotions in the groups and the adds in the delete dialog, then the "more about..." thing when you pause, and now this? It's getting to be too much.

and now this?
This type of ad has been around longer than any of the other ads you listed here.

I guess I'm much better at blocking this stuff out. I watched the board room stuff twice and had no recollection of any such ad. I had to go back and look for it. Just a second or two before the commercial break I realized that it had been on screen for a while. Even when I looked for it I blocked it out.

I have no problem with this
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6131/apprenticelifelockad.jpg

However, I do have a problem with this when ff-ing
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4904/apprenticelifelockadver.jpg

[spocko]

Thanks for posting the photos. I dislike both since they both obscure what you are trying to watch.

[steve614]

Wow! I'm not usually one to be anti-TiVo but these ads are getting a bit out of had. I didn't really mind this feature back when it was used every now and then to promote recording a new show. And I didn't really mind when they added the TiVo Central ad because it wasn't all that intrusive to my every day use. But then they added those star promotions in the groups and the adds in the delete dialog, then the "more about..." thing when you pause, and now this? It's getting to be too much.

I understand that TiVo needs to make money, but the TiVo UI is starting to look like some crappy web page over run with banner adds. There is a threshold that users will tolerate and I think TiVo is getting dangerously close to breaching it. I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but if ads popping up over programming become normal I'm seriously going to consider an alternative to TiVo when the next upgrade cycle comes around. :(

Dan
And some people claim there is no such thing as a slippery slope. :p
Tivo's on the verge of going over the cliff here.
TiVo also claimed at the time that it wouldn't be shown during programming but only during commercials.

Ahh, either I didn't catch that, or if I had, I didn't take Tivos word for it.
That's why I was not surprised.


It didn't really bother me being on a show like Celebrity Apprentice but it would bother me on a regular series show. I will say that if advertising is going to be forced upon us (DVR users), then the advertisers should include us in the ratings count. That's the only thing that would make it tolerable for me.

[djwilso]

These are my sentiments exactly.

I've already posted HD video demos of TiVo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&fmt=22) and Netflix on TiVo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCIKSj8bvY&fmt=22). After I upload the next video on pyTiVo/Streambaby, I'm going to upload a video showing the TiVo's advertising so potential customers know what to expect.Hey, I watched both of your videos. Very nice job - well done.

I am just curious, what sort of capture device did you use to capture the video output of your TiVo, and what sort of speed is your Internet connection?

My Cox cable internet is supposedly 12mbps down, but I never see any video on NetFlix in HD. The videos pretty much started right away in your video as well. For me, there is a noticeable delay.

NO FAIR! :)

Thanks for your efforts.

[samo]

When this feature was announced, it was discussed ad nauseam with people threatening to cancel their service if it ever came to fruition.

Tivo is losing subs as it is and new sales are dismal. Becoming commercial vending machine will not help the situation.

I understand that TiVo needs to make money, but the TiVo UI is starting to look like some crappy web page over run with banner adds. There is a threshold that users will tolerate and I think TiVo is getting dangerously close to breaching it. I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but if ads popping up over programming become normal I'm seriously going to consider an alternative to TiVo when the next upgrade cycle comes around. :(
Dan
I'm not sure how good of the option people have with cable, perhaps Moxi can pick up some disgruntled TiVo users. But satellite gives you some great options. I just got additional 100 hour HR-22 from DirecTV for free (had to extend my contract for another 2 years). No additional sub fees ($6/month covers all DVRs). How can you beat it? If upcoming HD DirecTivo will feature commercial vending machine, they might as well not even bother introducing it.

[brentsg]

I just sent TiVo some negative feedback regarding the ads. I've been a user since Series1 and have used a Series 3 since it came out. I really do love many things about it, and I enjoy being able to capture HD video from OTA sources. In reality I'm stuck since I have lifetime service and it's upgraded to 2TB... but man am I sick of the ads.

I gave up recommending TiVo months back when the ads first hit the menus. I'm just hoping that the directv box is advertising free and allows upgrades so I can retire this. It ticks me off that I paid for this every time I see the ads and that's not much of a way to relax and enjoy.

I don't even mind paying... at this point I'd go back to paying a monthly fee... or a one time fee just to turn off this "feature".

[ZeoTiVo]

These are my sentiments exactly.

mine as well. It goes too far. This breaks my rule of not having to do something different. I think it also breaks what TiVo said about the billboard not showing on top of the actual show.

Now I do see the argument that celebrity apprentice has turned into one big commercial anyhow, still that does not excuse a TiVo billboard over top and certainly would not be good over say a show like Life or Grey's Anatomy that is indeed a dramatic story that I wish to watch undisturbed.

Hopefully we will see little more of this and I would certainly boycott any show that does this as well as rethink my DVR choice if it gets more prevalent.


For the record the other type of ads on TiVo do not bother me at all, even the now playing folder ads turned out to not really be in my way.

[Joe01880]

For the record the other type of ads on TiVo do not bother me at all

Give them an inch and they will take a mile, seems like they are well on the way!

[ZeoTiVo]

Give them an inch and they will take a mile, seems like they are well on the way!

well lets see how this plays out first. The billboard during commercial caused a big flap and we rarely see them.

There is still that line TiVo has to honor or they lose the one thing they can not - subscribers.

[samo]

There is still that line TiVo has to honor or they lose the one thing they can not - subscribers.
They do lose subscribers as it is - they are getting used to it. But one group of subscribers they can not afford to lose are TiVo evangelists. Not a single advertisement campaign that Tivo spent hundreds of millions of dollars on was ever a success. I truly believe that big portion of TiVo sales were induced by enthusiastic TiVo owners who spread the gospel one person at a time. The fact that TiVo sales are so dismal now days is due not just to a competition. I think the big part of it is TiVo's move from serving a consumer to serving advertisers. That stops even most loyal customers from recommending Tivo to their friends and relatives.

[shadowplay]

I don't watch CA but looking at that 2nd picture it reminds me of that Norton ad that came up during ff on a CNET Tivocast in Jan '08.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=382575&highlight=cnet

Like many I considered the other ads a necessary evil but ads while watching a show cross the line for me. Looks like I hold off replacing the series 2 with another HD for awhile.

I want to see what comes of this (in the other case CNET pulled the ad)....

[lew]

Now I do see the argument that celebrity apprentice has turned into one big commercial anyhow, still that does not excuse a TiVo billboard over top and certainly would not be good over say a show like Life or Grey's Anatomy that is indeed a dramatic story that I wish to watch undisturbed.


That's why I wonder if the entire show is literally a commercial with LifeLock controlling content including the right to include the popover.

The question is if tivo changed it's policy regarding popovers during a show or if NBC changed it's policy and the sponsors now control all (or part) of some shows.

[ZeoTiVo]

They do lose subscribers as it is - they are getting used to it. But one group of subscribers they can not afford to lose are TiVo evangelists. Not a single advertisement compain that Tivo spent hundreds of millions of dollars on was ever a success. well I agree that it is hard to advertise a DVR let alone why one versus another - but hundreds of millions of dollars?

I truly believe that big portion of TiVo sales were induced by enthusiastic TiVo owners who spread the gospel one person at a time. The fact that TiVo sales are so dismal now days is due not just to a competition. I think the big part of it is TiVo's move from serving a consumer to serving advertisers. That stops even most loyal customers from recommending Tivo to their friends and relatives. clearly TiVo had its initial boost in that way but that will always have diminishing returns as you run out of people who would be up for conversion and understand the why. Now adays it is Uncle Joe who gets freaked the TV not being live they need to sell a DVR to.
Right now though Uncle Joe is more freaked about his job and has less time and money to spend on DVRs.

Also hurts that some of the most ardent evangelists are cut off from a new DirecTTiVo until next year.

[ZeoTiVo]

That's why I wonder if the entire show is literally a commercial with LifeLock controlling content including the right to include the popover.

The question is if tivo changed it's policy regarding popovers during a show or if NBC changed it's policy and the sponsors now control all (or part) of some shows.

the way the tech works -
They contract with TiVo and that gets the image and link to whatever down on the TiVo part of the DVR hard drive.

then the owner of the content - be it a commercial or whatever - add in the marks(or works with broadcaster to do same) that TiVo code looks for to display the billboard or hide it again. Lifelock could not display the billboard over top of CA without the approval of whoever owns CA.

Clearly CA sold out and allowed the billboard or I assume we would have heard something by now. TiVo is now on dangerous ground as they do not have control over when the billboard shows up. I assume they could change the contract to state TiVo users would not be subject to it during actual show content, but IANAL.

Also of course I am not in the TiVo meetings to know how much TiVo knew ahead of time and how far this might go. I agree that going furtehr would be bad for users and bad for TiVo.

[samo]

well I agree that it is hard to advertise a DVR let alone why one versus another - but hundreds of millions of dollars?

Yes, Zeo. About $300 million give or take over last 10 years.

[gonzotek]

Yes, Zeo. About $300 million give or take over last 10 years.That's quite different than "Not a single advertisement compain that Tivo spent hundreds of millions of dollars on". I parsed your sentence the same way I think that Zeo did, that a single campaign cost multiple hundreds of millions, which did seem a bit of a stretch.

Your intended point stands, however. Their own advertising record has been so abysmal, it's amazing they've managed to attract as many advertisers and higher profile content partners as they have. My extremely uneducated guess is that their IP portfolio is the attraction, and not their SA subscriber base.

[samo]

That's quite different than "Not a single advertisement campaign that Tivo spent hundreds of millions of dollars on". I parsed your sentence the same way I think that Zeo did, that a single campaign cost multiple hundreds of millions, which did seem a bit of a stretch.

Your intended point stands, however. Their own advertising record has been so abysmal, it's amazing they've managed to attract as many advertisers and higher profile content partners as they have. My extremely uneducated guess is that their IP portfolio is the attraction, and not their SA subscriber base.

Sorry that I wasn't clear enough in my original statement. The most expensive single TiVo campaign that I recall was original name recognition campaign early on and it was about $150 million. Other campaigns were in $30 to 50 million range.

[bareyb]

Wow! I'm not usually one to be anti-TiVo but these ads are getting a bit out of had. I didn't really mind this feature back when it was used every now and then to promote recording a new show. And I didn't really mind when they added the TiVo Central ad because it wasn't all that intrusive to my every day use. But then they added those star promotions in the groups and the adds in the delete dialog, then the "more about..." thing when you pause, and now this? It's getting to be too much.

I understand that TiVo needs to make money, but the TiVo UI is starting to look like some crappy web page over run with banner adds. There is a threshold that users will tolerate and I think TiVo is getting dangerously close to breaching it. I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but if ads popping up over programming become normal I'm seriously going to consider an alternative to TiVo when the next upgrade cycle comes around. :(

Dan

and now this?


However, I do have a problem with this when ff-ing
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4904/apprenticelifelockadver.jpg

I'm a TiVo fanatic, but even I'm getting turned off. It's just too much. This latest thing crosses the line by a mile and I hope they rethink it. Really makes their product look tacky and it's annoying as hell. I want TiVo to suceed as much as the next guy, but this is a bad, bad, decision, no matter how much they are being paid to "stick it to us". :down:

[Miller]

and now this?
This type of ad has been around longer than any of the other ads you listed here.

I guess I'm much better at blocking this stuff out. I watched the board room stuff twice and had no recollection of any such ad. I had to go back and look for it. Just a second or two before the commercial break I realized that it had been on screen for a while. Even when I looked for it I blocked it out.

I have no problem with this
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6131/apprenticelifelockad.jpg

However, I do have a problem with this when ff-ing
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4904/apprenticelifelockadver.jpg

I have not experienced this "feature" - yet. My policy is that I will not do business with any company that advertises in this manner. If I do experience this "feature" in the future TiVo will certainly receive a written, snail-mailed complaint from me as will the CEO of the company that placed the ad if I can find the intormation online.

[CrispyCritter]

My question is "Was this intended by the producer of the show?"

If the producer approved the window and contents, then I am seeing exactly what I was intended to see and therefore can't complain (except about the show).

I currently object to the various networks putting large ads for upcoming shows on the bottom of the screen (SciFi channel is what I object most to at the moment). That obscures content that was intended not to be obscured. But I don't blame TiVo for those; that's the network's fault.

3 cases:
1. If TiVo sells ads like this that were not approved by the network, then I'll be very upset with TiVo.
2. If the network sells ads like this that were not approved by the individual show, then I'll be upset at the network.
3. If the individual show approves the ad (as is probably the case here), then the only one to be upset about is the show.

[bkdtv]

If the producer approved the window and contents, then I am seeing exactly what I was intended to see and therefore can't complain (except about the show).This is still a TiVo-specific "feature." You will not find this banner on any other cable, satellite, or off-air DVR.

Someone at NBC decided to take advantage of this TiVo "feature" to display the ad banner. If this becomes a regular practice, a user's only recourse is to abandon / cancel TiVo service and choose another DVR which does not support these banner advertisements.

The DTVPal DVR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071) has a MSRP of $299 and is once again available from DTVPal.com (http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/dvr.shtml) for $249 + tax and shipping. This dual-tuner OTA HDTV DVR has no subscriptions, no monthly fees and no advertisements. With the latest software, the DTVPal DVR supports 1TB internal drive upgrades.

Now, you do give up a lot of functionality with the DTVPal DVR...but many people may be willing to do just that to eliminate the TiVo-specific banner advertisements, especially if this practice becomes more common. Given the choice of two web browsers, one with advertisements and one without, I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of Internet users will opt for the one without ads, even if it means sacrificing other functionality.

[ZeoTiVo]

Given the choice of two web browsers, one with advertisements and one without, I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of Internet users will opt for the one without ads, even if it means sacrificing other functionality.

of course without ads we would end up with 100 channels of drivel like celebrity Apprentice. The irony of that makes me laugh.

[CrispyCritter]

This is still a TiVo-specific "feature." You will not find this banner on any other cable, satellite, or off-air DVR.

Someone at NBC decided to take advantage of this TiVo "feature" to display the ad banner. If this becomes a regular practice, a user's only recourse is to abandon / cancel TiVo service and choose another DVR which does not support these banner advertisements.

Sorry, I don't in general blame the technology provider for the use others make of their technology. This is a perfectly reasonable capability for TiVo to offer - I can see it widely used for infomercials and being able to order through the TiVo. This is a capability TiVo has always said they would offer (ordering from the couch); if you go back to their first annual report in 2000, they spend almost as much time talking about what they can offer advertisers as what they can offer viewers.

I strongly would not like the networks to start interfering with their shows by offering this inappropriately. But it's their decision, and I will blame them for it.

Don't you find your second paragraph above a bit incongruous? Somebody at NBC makes a decision you don't like, and you say the only thing viewers can do is punish TiVo? How many people in this thread have made their opinion known to NBC about this, and why aren't people trying to organize a campaign to NBC about it?

[bkdtv]

Don't you find your second paragraph above a bit incongruous? Somebody at NBC makes a decision you don't like, and you say the only thing viewers can do is punish TiVo? How many people in this thread have made their opinion known to NBC about this, and why aren't people trying to organize a campaign to NBC about it?If you have two web browsers, otherwise identical....except one supports popup advertisements [which cannot be disabled] and the other does not...which are you going to use?

I would switch to the browser that does not support popup advertisements.

[rainwater]

I strongly would not like the networks to start interfering with their shows by offering this inappropriately. But it's their decision, and I will blame them for it.

Don't you find your second paragraph above a bit incongruous? Somebody at NBC makes a decision you don't like, and you say the only thing viewers can do is punish TiVo? How many people in this thread have made their opinion known to NBC about this, and why aren't people trying to organize a campaign to NBC about it?

TiVo is the one that claimed that this would not be shown during programming. The fact is, the contracts they have with the advertisers should protect TiVo's users. However, it appears that this isn't the case. Either TiVo wasn't being very honest with how the technology will be allowed to work with their advertisers, or they just don't care what networks do to trigger these interactive ads.

[samo]

3 cases:
1. If TiVo sells ads like this that were not approved by the network, then I'll be very upset with TiVo.
2. If the network sells ads like this that were not approved by the individual show, then I'll be upset at the network.
3. If the individual show approves the ad (as is probably the case here), then the only one to be upset about is the show.
4. If the user puts up with with the ad, then the only one to blaim is the user.

There are users who don't use DVR and watch all ads. Somebody watches infomercials, they wouldn't exist if nobody watched them. There are TiVo users that will be using TiVo even if every show will have these types of ads.
If you don't like these ads, instead of the trying to find whom to complain about it, you should find a DVR service that doesn't have these ads and vote with your wallet.

[bareyb]

If you don't like these ads, instead of the trying to find whom to complain about it, you should find a DVR service that doesn't have these ads and vote with your wallet.

Or perhaps one could come to a "TiVo Message Board" and complain in hopes that brighter minds at TiVo might take notice of their dissatisfaction and make some changes. That's what we are doing here. Ditching TiVo would be a last resort, and not nearly as "carefree" a choice as you make it seem.

I'd be horribly bummed to give it up, just as I'd be horribly bummed to have to see my favorite piece of Video equipment steadily decline into an annoying "electronic billboard" for the likes of Donald Trump.

Maybe if you don't like complaints about TiVo you should not read threads like this one? Oh, you'd rather complain to US in hopes that perhaps WE might change? Hypocrisy at it's finest. :p

[steve614]

Complaining on this message board is futile. Sure, it's a "TiVo message board", but it's not TiVos message board.
Complaining to TiVo will fall on deaf ears because they added this "feature" just for this purpose.
Complaining to the networks might get a notice, but let's face it, networks get more money from advertisers than they do from us.

Sounds like the only options are to take it, or leave it, so to speak.

[samo]

Or perhaps one could come to a "TiVo Message Board" and complain in hopes that brighter minds at TiVo might take notice of their dissatisfaction and make some changes. That's what we are doing here. Ditching TiVo would be a last resort, and not nearly as "carefree" a choice as you make it seem.

I'd be horribly bummed to give it up, just as I'd be horribly bummed to have to see my favorite piece of Video equipment steadily decline into an annoying "electronic billboard" for the likes of Donald Trump.

Maybe if you don't like complaints about TiVo you should not read threads like this one? Oh, you'd rather complain to US in hopes that perhaps WE might change? Hypocrisy at it's finest. :p

I don't see my post as a complaint or hope that somebody will change. I see it as reality check. Sure, you can hope that "brighter minds" at TiVo will read your complaint and will reverse the philosophy proclaimed by TiVo CEO to the TV industry. The reality is that TiVo spent whole bunch of money to provide advertisers with a new advertising venue and would rather lose some percentage of users than admit that they made a mistake.
It is up to the user to put up with new ads or to switch to another DVR. We are not talking about life support device, it is just a recorder designed for the entertainment. You don't get to chose or influence how this device works just like you do not chose how movie is going to end. Your only choices are to accept it or move on to something else. Fortunately, there are some choices that you can make today that were are not available just a few years ago.
But choices are personal. By all means, complain all you want and try your best to change TiVo's CEO mind. But the reality is that unless TiVo has a huge drop in monthly subs, ads are here to stay.

[RoyK]

....

Sounds like the only options are to take it, or leave it, so to speak.
No indeed. Another option is to raise a stink as publicly as possible. Let it be known far and wide to prospective purchasers of the product that TiVo not only condones the practice of overlaying ads on programming that are not seen by non-TiVo viewers but indeed encourages the practice and agressively markets the capability.

Only if there is a perception that continuing the practice will negatively impact the bottom line will anything change.

[rainwater]

By all means, complain all you want and try your best to change TiVo's CEO mind. But the reality is that unless TiVo has a huge drop in monthly subs, ads are here to stay.

TiVo has made multiple statements saying they would never use ads during programming or any type of ads to interfere with the viewing experience. We don't need to change the CEOs mind. We need TiVo to fix the problem or stop lying to us.

[ZeoTiVo]

The reality is that TiVo spent whole bunch of money to provide advertisers with a new advertising venue and would rather lose some percentage of users than admit that they made a mistake.

Bias much?

[steve614]

No indeed. Another option is to raise a stink as publicly as possible. Let it be known far and wide to prospective purchasers of the product that TiVo not only condones the practice of overlaying ads on programming that are not seen by non-TiVo viewers but indeed encourages the practice and agressively markets the capability.

Only if there is a perception that continuing the practice will negatively impact the bottom line will anything change.

You have a point there, but the reality is, we (as a collective, myself included) tend to be all talk and no action.

We need to take action. Find a blog about this story and "digg" it. Write hand written letters to be sent to top executives, etc.
How many people complaining here will actually do this?

[ZeoTiVo]

You have a point there, but the reality is, we (as a collective, myself included) tend to be all talk and no action.

We need to take action. Find a blog about this story and "digg" it. Write hand written letters to be sent to top executives, etc.
How many people complaining here will actually do this?
I myself am waiting to see if it spreads beyond the drivel that is CA. I think there is a lot of truth in the fact that the show itself happily sold out for more ad revenue.
Now if it comes up over top of a good drama I like such as Life or over top of something like American Idol that hardly needs more ad revenue then I know it is going mainstream and time to act.
Not likely to give up TiVo over this though unless it happens a lot. Not likely to rant for 10 thread pages but the letter writing is a good way to go. Staying tuned.

[Kablemodem]

I watched this episode of Celebrity Apprentice last night and I didn't see any pop-up ads.

[timckelley]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but even if hitting clear gets rid of the ads that pop over the show in progress, what if you're offload to VSH or a DVD burner via the "Save to VCR" command? You wouldn't be there to hit clear. Does this mean that part of the screen is wiped out on your burned recording, and you won't know until you watch the burned show who knows when?

[puckettcg]

This doesn't really bother me too much. "Free" TV is paid for by advertisers, whether we like it or not. If we truly don't want any advertisements, we have the option (except sporting events) to download them at a cost of $1.99 per episode, buying the DVD's when they come out, or only watching shows from premium services such as HBO. If networks don't get money from advertisers, and don't get money from us, then who's footing the bill for the show? Actually, I think the recent trend of imbedding product advertisements into the storyline is brilliant.

If an unobtrusive click on button in the corner of screen during the show, or a bigger ad when the show is paused, means TIVO gets some added revenue from the box, that's great. My only real issue (which isn't so much TIVO but the networks) is that some of those adds fill up a quarter of my screen - at least when it comes from TIVO I can clear it away. If the networks do it - and even the local networks are getting in the act (and flipping the screen to Standard Definition to make things worse) - I have no option but to view the ad.

[timckelley]

Yes, I hate it when a network puts a popup ad that you can't clear off, and it's covering up some written text that's part of the program. I've had it happen where that text was crucial to the plotline of the show, and it was pretty darned annoying when I couldn't read it.

[CrispyCritter]

TiVo has made multiple statements saying they would never use ads during programming or any type of ads to interfere with the viewing experience. We don't need to change the CEOs mind. We need TiVo to fix the problem or stop lying to us.
But how is this interfering with the viewing experience if we are seeing exactly what the producer of the show intends for us to see?

We may not like what the producers intend for us to see, but that's true of most shows!

As I said, I have no objection, and even applause, for using this technology for infomercials; this application is awfully close to that. There's no doubt that the producers of the show knew about and approved the TiVo overlay.

[timckelley]

Are you suggesting tha the overlay is being created by the TiVo, but approved by the producers? Still, I can see where this can interfere with the "Save to VCR" feature of TiVo. I would put the blame for this problem on TiVo, as they don't have to put popups during the programming portion of the recording.

[Raj]

This is one big reason I use 30 sec skip and not FF.

[scandia101]

I watched this episode of Celebrity Apprentice last night and I didn't see any pop-up ads.

I'm guessing that they expire because it no longer appears on my recording.
I could very easily be very wrong.

[Kablemodem]

That sounds like something they did a few years back. I wonder how long it takes for the ads to expire after the air date.

[jcthorne]

Tivo did not violate its promise not to use popup ads during program material. NBC, under contract classifies the entire time slot of CA as advertising, not entertainment material. The popup was placed DURING AN AD and therefore met the requirements of Tivo's promise. The popup was placed by the advertisments producer. I suggest you complain to NBC or to Lifelock the purchaser of the ad. As much as I dislike the outcome, Tivo only provided the technology for the presentation. NBC did this.

[gonzotek]

I'm guessing that they expire because it no longer appears on my recording.
I could very easily be very wrong.

A year ago they tried the FFW ad on a cnet download, and ostensibly due to the backlash, TiVo pulled it:
Hi folks,

Thanks for your feedback and discussion here. We take it very seriously. Based on the feedback, we have removed the display of the fast forward ad from the CNET episode for now. Your unit will update the CNET show the next time it makes a connection to the TiVo service.

Best regards,
Stephen

[ZeoTiVo]

A year ago they tried the FFW ad on a cnet download, and ostensibly due to the backlash, TiVo pulled it:

well actually Cnet asked TiVo to pull it and TiVo readily did so. Cnet did say it was due to an overwhelming backlash but I bet letters and calls direct to Cnet played a good part in that

[xboard07]

making Moxi look more appealing

[ZeoTiVo]

making Moxi look more appealing

no analog tuner in box - No OTA , no MRV yet,
MOXI only does digital cable as fully as TiVo HD.
Oh and Moxi is working with PlayOn on bringing video from a PC to the TV like Hulu.

still since I use Analog tuners, OTA and MRV quite a bit then MOXI is a no starter for me and simply not a good replacemnet for TiVo in my house

[Bierboy]

I just got my second TiVo, and, I must say, MRV is wonderful. Don't know how I "lived" without it :D That feature alone makes the monthly fee worth it.

[rainwater]

Tivo did not violate its promise not to use popup ads during program material. NBC, under contract classifies the entire time slot of CA as advertising, not entertainment material.

Where is it classified as advertising? I see it classified under reality programming on my TiVo. Based on what you are saying any program can now say they are advertising. I suspect American Idol can do the same and it will be ok by you. Btw, TiVo also said it would not affect the viewing experience so they are not off the hook.

[CharlesH]

At least you can clear the pop-overs, unlike those blasted crawlers pushing some other program that take over the bottom 1/4 of the screen on some networks. :down: I've found that I tune them out; they become the equivalent of that blocking that you can get if your digital signal is marginal. They are just noise that interferes with seeing the program.

Ever watched some of those old game shows from the 50's? The sponsor's logo is often prominently displayed on the set.

I've heard it said that the program content is just the enticement used to get you to watch the primary content, which is the commercials. :)

[samo]

NBC, under contract classifies the entire time slot of CA as advertising, not entertainment material.
No, they didn't. If they did, by law, they would have to run a disclaimer before the show like they do for infomercials. "The following program .. .bla .... bla ..bla , we are not responsible ... bla ... bla bla.."
Advertising banners were shown ON TIVO ONLY. None of the other DVRs had them. Life show didn't have them. Stop shifting the blame, it doesn't do anybody good to be in denial.

[lew]

no analog tuner in box - No OTA , no MRV yet,
MOXI only does digital cable as fully as TiVo HD.
Oh and Moxi is working with PlayOn on bringing video from a PC to the TV like Hulu.

still since I use Analog tuners, OTA and MRV quite a bit then MOXI is a no starter for me and simply not a good replacemnet for TiVo in my house

Also no SDV. Only has one cc slot, an issue if your cable system is still using up their inventory of S cards.

[AbMagFab]

The popup was placed by the advertisments producer. I suggest you complain to NBC or to Lifelock the purchaser of the ad. As much as I dislike the outcome, Tivo only provided the technology for the presentation. NBC did this.

+100

It's unfortunate that this forum has been overtaken by anti-Tivo marketing people. Sure, there are a few crazies out there that complain about everything, but this board has been swamped with marketing folks from Tivo rivals, thinking that whining here will somehow harm Tivo's reputation.

It won't. Nice try though.

Now grow up, go home, and try to sell your own products on their own merits, rather than trying to knock your competition down.

[Bierboy]

+100

It's unfortunate that this forum has been overtaken by anti-Tivo marketing people. Sure, there are a few crazies out there that complain about everything, but this board has been swamped with marketing folks from Tivo rivals, thinking that whining here will somehow harm Tivo's reputation.

It won't. Nice try though.

Now grow up, go home, and try to sell your own products on their own merits, rather than trying to knock your competition down.
...what he said....

[timckelley]

Answer to the question of "who is behind and responsible for pop up ads?" is not TiVo only or NBC only, but a combination. TiVo didn't have to provide the technology, but they made the deliberate decision to do so, knowing that we customers will be having to deal with them. NBC (and others like them) didn't have to take advantage of the technologicy provided by TiVo, but they did.

[bareyb]

I keep seeing the "Real Band" diet aid ads on pause. Almost exclusively. Who is responsible for THAT? It's my impression they hired TiVo and are paying them for the ads. Not the networks. Unless all the networks somehow came up with the same sponsor which nobody has ever heard of until now...

Also, who are you accusing of being "shills" for TiVo's rivals? :confused:

[steve614]

I think the technology can happen both ways. The advertisers can choose to use the flag that causes the pop-up during the commercial/show or they can ask TiVo to put their ad up during pause.

[fred2]

I don't work for any competitor. I don't own stock in any competitor.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THE ADS!!

And, at the moment I cannot take my business elsewhere since I've got Lifetime. But as others have said, I also don't have to recommend Tivo to friends. Some have asked about its advantages and in the past I could say, I can limit my commercial viewing and watch a show in about 45 minutes. I am not sure that I can make that claim any longer. Will tivo be altering what/when/how they pop up ads?

As some have pointed out - their terms of service say they can do almost anything. Well, I will not recommend their product any longer.

Interface is one thing but there are now other choices out there - including the maybe suspect Torrent option - already edited down to the show, no commercials and no tivo popups.

[scandia101]

And, at the moment I cannot take my business elsewhere since I've got Lifetime.

That's not a good excuse at all considering that it can be sold.

[ursine1]

Yeah. The ads are lame-tastic. It's hard to convince someone to buy into a subscription service -- a relatively expensive one at that -- that also inundates the user with advertising.

[notsoelite]

I just have to re-chime in to say that my initial complaint was that the ad was placed over and during the show and not a commercial break and that I was forced to clear the ad because it didn't clear on its own. Perhaps I didn't wait long enough, but I waited longer than should have been required.

Also, without any argument to whether shows like Celebrity Apprentice are basically an advertisement or not, when I choose to watch a show, I am not looking for "in your face" ads during the content of the show that block my ability to view the entire screen. That is what brand placement and commercial breaks are for.

Whoever crossed this line, be it TiVo or NBC, are disrespecting their sole purpose for existing - having people watch and/or use their services. There are aspects to television viewing that should be respected. I accept ads and sometimes even like product placement (although Heros is ridiculous) but the broadcaster or hardware manufacturer should respect established and accepted boundries or they both lose me as a target audience. Then everybody loses; I lose some shows that I like, NBC loses viewers, I miss my TiVo and am forced to get smarter and read a book instead of trying to watch more saved shows than I'll ever got to :-)

[Bierboy]

...when I choose to watch a show, I am not looking for "in your face" ads during the content of the show...

It is NOT during the "content of the show"....you have PAUSED the program, so the program is not running. All you have to do is resume playing and the "in your face" ads are NOT in your face any more.

[ZeoTiVo]

I can limit my commercial viewing and watch a show in about 45 minutes. I am not sure that I can make that claim any longer.

well if you quit pausing the show you should still be able to watch in 45 minutes :D

[ZeoTiVo]

Also, without any argument to whether shows like Celebrity Apprentice are basically an advertisement or not, when I choose to watch a show, I am not looking for "in your face" ads during the content of the show that block my ability to view the entire screen. That is what brand placement and commercial breaks are for. why would the billboard ad not be product placement, since we can be reasonably sure that if CA did not want the billboard to show as it did they would have said something by now. it is an ugly in your face product placement to be sure and if I watched the show I would stop watching it. Still is is product placement by the show as they can easily stop it if they do not want it to happen. I do concede that TiVo could easily stop it as well ;)

Whoever crossed this line, be it TiVo or NBC, are disrespecting their sole purpose for existing - having people watch and/or use their services.
Obviously ad revenue is the sole reason NBC exists as a company. The Govt. has made them do public service things as for the common good, but they do not generate revenue off of it.
Celeb Apprentice exists solely because NBC needs content to attratc viewers to see the ads that generate the revenue.

a very simple bottom line to broadcast TV -
If you do not want to see ads and find a way to avoid them then broadcast TV does not want you.

[atmuscarella]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
a very simple bottom line to broadcast TV -
If you do not want to see ads and find a way to avoid them then broadcast TV does not want you.I would go even further, people need to understand that the purpose of broadcast TV is to deliver adds to the vendor's target audience's eye balls. That is what the TV network/station is paid to do. Television shows are only there to get us to watch the adds. We are not the Networks or Stations customers the companies that pay for the adds are their customers. We are the product that is being delivered.

TiVo is slowly moving in the same direction. Currently we are TiVo's customers. This is changing and we are slowly also becoming the product being delivered. Mostly I think this sucks.

Thanks,

[MichaelK]

I don't work for any competitor. I don't own stock in any competitor.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THE ADS!!

And, at the moment I cannot take my business elsewhere since I've got Lifetime. But as others have said, I also don't have to recommend Tivo to friends. Some have asked about its advantages and in the past I could say, I can limit my commercial viewing and watch a show in about 45 minutes. I am not sure that I can make that claim any longer. Will tivo be altering what/when/how they pop up ads?

As some have pointed out - their terms of service say they can do almost anything. Well, I will not recommend their product any longer.

Interface is one thing but there are now other choices out there - including the maybe suspect Torrent option - already edited down to the show, no commercials and no tivo popups.


i dont disagree with anything you said- but you sure CAN take your business elsewhere- you just choose not to becasue it would cost you more. Stopping use on a lifetime box would effect tivo's subbed box numbers /churn rate. If I recall for their financial reporting they take the lifetime boxes off the sub list fter 3 years if it hasn't called home in x months. (they may even take them off the books after 3 months of non use period but I forget the details)

I guess you can argue that disconnecting a lifetime box within the first 33 months then would NOT hurt tivo. But for sure after that point if you stop using it then it hurts their churn rate and prosepctive advertisers would be told there were that many less boxes in service.

so basically the equation is does it piss any one person off enough that they are willing to pay some more and go elsewhere. And that's likely tivo's bottom line question too. If not many people leave then all the complaining means nothing to them.

[MichaelK]

Yeah. The ads are lame-tastic. It's hard to convince someone to buy into a subscription service -- a relatively expensive one at that -- that also inundates the user with advertising.

yeah! in the real world that is so true. Hardly anyone has expanded basic cable or satellite tv!

oh wait.....
;)

[MichaelK]

It is NOT during the "content of the show"....you have PAUSED the program, so the program is not running. All you have to do is resume playing and the "in your face" ads are NOT in your face any more.


acctually 2 differnt things

the pause bar /more about ads are one thing

but also it seems that during celebrity apprentice there was a "billboard ad" splashed on the screen DURING the actual show. Sort of like during playback of certain commericals there are "press thumbs up for more info" banners.

[MichaelK]

I would go even further, people need to understand that the purpose of broadcast TV is to deliver adds to the vendor's target audience's eye balls. That is what the TV network/station is paid to do. Television shows are only there to get us to watch the adds. We are not the Networks or Stations customers the companies that pay for the adds are their customers. We are the product that is being delivered.

TiVo is slowly moving in the same direction. Currently we are TiVo's customers. This is changing and we are slowly also becoming the product being delivered. Mostly I think this sucks.

Thanks,

that's very well said. :up:
really wise post.

[Bierboy]

acctually 2 differnt things

the pause bar /more about ads are one thing

but also it seems that during celebrity apprentice there was a "billboard ad" splashed on the screen DURING the actual show. Sort of like during playback of certain commericals there are "press thumbs up for more info" banners.

I've not seen any "billboard ads" yet, Michael. But the "thumbs up for more info" is likely much less obtrusive, to me anyhow, than a billboard ad (which, by its name, sounds a lot bigger than the "thumbs up for more info"). Someone who's seen both could probably confirm or deny.

[MichaelK]

never seen it myself- but post #22 in this thread has a screen picture.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7214540#post7214540

actually to tell you the truth- not having paid attention to the screen pic earlier I was way more bent. Now that I see it i dont really care at all. The whole show is a giant product placement so a little screen up at the corner that isn't covering much up is no wrose then a network bug or when every single network puts the score up on the middle of my 16:9 screen during a baseball/football game becasue they still are protecting people with 4:3 tv's.

As an aside- that sceen pic looks like a 4:3- anyone with 16:9 see it- and did it get left justified or stuck in the middle like a 4:3 screen?

If it became Ubiquitous then maybe i'd see things differently, but honestly (and I know I'll be branded a heretic- laughin) i dont really mind targeted ads that are very specific to what I'm watching or what I'm interested in.

Maybe had i watched that show I would be wondering "gee, what's theis lifelock all about that they have been hawking for 50 minutes non stop?" So a thumbs up for more info that returns me right were I left from might actually be helpfull.

can you hit clear to get rid of them?

[scandia101]

I've not seen any "billboard ads" yet, Michael. But the "thumbs up for more info" is likely much less obtrusive, to me anyhow, than a billboard ad (which, by its name, sounds a lot bigger than the "thumbs up for more info"). Someone who's seen both could probably confirm or deny.
:rolleyes:
and yet here you are participating in a thread that is all about these ads.