Lost 4/08/09 Dead is Dead [Text View]

Rob Helmerichs

04-08-2009, 09:43 PM

So Rob, Ben's house was Ben's house, complete with that painting of a blond that looks suspiciously like Juliete. Do we agree there's less evidence now that the universe is broken?
Yes, less, but not a lot less.

I wasn't sure whether or not Ben's house was Ben's house. The smoke monster controls were obviously there before the Others took over. Ben's always playing Ben's game; if all that mattered to him was getting to the controls, I could see him ignoring the fact that the village has changed, if that's the case.

I'm just not sure what the writers are up to at this point. In the last village episode, they pointed very clearly to the village having been abandoned after the Purge. It seemed strange to me that this time they didn't deal with what's up with the village at all. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where they're heading.

As for the universe being broken, though, I don't see any room for doubt on that point. I think the only question is what the symptoms are and are not.

ElJay

04-08-2009, 09:58 PM

Emmy for Michael Giacchino

Who would've known the smoke monster sounds like a dot matrix receipt printer? :D

brermike

04-08-2009, 10:18 PM

Wow, an incredible episode. I need to digest it more before commenting too much.

Yes, less, but not a lot less.

I wasn't sure whether or not Ben's house was Ben's house. The smoke monster controls were obviously there before the Others took over. Ben's always playing Ben's game; if all that mattered to him was getting to the controls, I could see him ignoring the fact that the village has changed, if that's the case.

I'm pretty sure it was Ben's house as we last saw it in The Shape of Things to Come. The furniture was moved around the door and the window was broken like we last saw it. Also, the Risk game was still out from when Hurley and Sawyer were playing before the freighter folk attacked. I still don't think the village changed. My guess is that we just never saw the processing center on screen and that is what is causing people to think of an alternate universe. Though I could still be wrong :)

Rob Helmerichs

04-08-2009, 10:23 PM

I still don't think the village changed. My guess is that we just never saw the processing center on screen and that is what is causing people to think of an alternate universe.
Could be, but that kind of misdirection would be very, very uncharacteristic of this show.

We shall see!

pcguru83

04-08-2009, 10:24 PM

Also, the Risk game was still out from when Hurley and Sawyer were playing before the freighter folk attacked.
Yes, this exactly. I thought for sure this would clear up whether or not the village had changed. Apparently still not completely for some. :)

Seems in that scene or series of scenes they went out of their way to show that we were seeing that room exactly as it had been before.

jking

04-08-2009, 10:28 PM

mqpickles

04-08-2009, 10:28 PM

And what do you make of the fact that when Ben saw the 1977 picture, he didn't seem to the slightest recall that he had seen Hurley, Jack and Kate back then?

tewcewl

04-08-2009, 10:29 PM

I'm pretty sure it was Ben's house as we last saw it in The Shape of Things to Come. The furniture was moved around the door and the window was broken like we last saw it. Also, the Risk game was still out from when Hurley and Sawyer were playing before the freighter folk attacked. I still don't think the village changed. My guess is that we just never saw the processing center on screen and that is what is causing people to think of an alternate universe. Though I could still be wrong :)

I think the RISK game is the biggest clue that they're giving that things are still the same in Dharmaville. It's just...empty. I find it interesting one of the questions Locke asked Ben was why did they take over the village after the Purge. Because they brought that up, I'm sure they're going to answer that.

And here we see the season's most blatant evidence of growing Egyptology. Obviously Anubis and the ideas of some form of eternal life or the power of holding life after death is tying the statue, the ankh necklace, and the temple that we saw today. Makes me wonder where they're going with this.

So, what did Widmore do to get himself handcuffed and thrown off the island via sub? (Not via the wheel as some here had mused.)

I was surprised Cesar's dead. Definitely caught me off guard there. And what's in that crate? Hmmm...

And finally, notice how the smoke monster's judging of Ben was the same as the judging of Eko -- showing scenes of their past. Apparently Eko was weighed and found wanting, but not Ben. So, what's the smoke monster's criteria and more importantly, WHAT is it?

jking

04-08-2009, 10:32 PM

And what do you make of the fact that when Ben saw the 1977 picture, he didn't seem to the slightest recall that he had seen Hurley, Jack and Kate back then?

You are right, that is curious. Of course it is Ben we're talking about... ;)

brermike

04-08-2009, 10:33 PM

And what do you make of the fact that when Ben saw the 1977 picture, he didn't seem to the slightest recall that he had seen Hurley, Jack and Kate back then?

Well, so far we never saw young Ben see Hurley, Jack and Kate. They had only been there a day before he got shot. He was unconscious the entire time Kate was near him. Plus, we know he doesn't remember the shooting so he probably doesn't remember Sayid either.

I bet he remembers Juliet though since she had been there for 3 years.

mqpickles

04-08-2009, 10:34 PM

Peter000

04-08-2009, 11:09 PM

Who the heck are the new leaders of the crash site? They seem to have a purpose for being there.

Speculation, but I'm fairly sure they're Widmore's people. Ben told Widmore he and the 06 were going back to the island, so Widmore probably had the 06 shadowed and figured out what was going on. He probably even facilitated Sayid's "arrest" by the woman who was one of the leaders.

jkeegan

04-09-2009, 12:06 AM

So according to Richard's conversation w/Widmore, can we guess that Jacob = the island?

Btw, Penny's son Charlie had the same sort of hairdo that the first Charles Widmore actor in the episode did.

jkeegan

04-09-2009, 12:11 AM

...and... what DOES lie in the shadow of the statue?
(and how did any of them get brainwashed way over on this island?)

gchance

04-09-2009, 12:21 AM

YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY!!! Penny lived!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More importantly, Des kicked Ben's ASS! Rule #1: don't mess with Des. Rule #2: don't mess with Des's lady. He most definitely will NOT see you in another life, bruthah.

Who the heck are the new leaders of the crash site? They seem to have a purpose for being there.

They also seem to have the same crazy the French team had.

Speculation, but I'm fairly sure they're Widmore's people. Ben told Widmore he and the 06 were going back to the island, so Widmore probably had the 06 shadowed and figured out what was going on. He probably even facilitated Sayid's "arrest" by the woman who was one of the leaders.

I'm absolutely with Peter there. They're Widemore's people, especially given that handshaking question. What's in the shadow of the giant statue? Trick question: Smokey, of course, IS the statue's shadow. :)

Emmy for Michael Giacchino

Who would've known the smoke monster sounds like a dot matrix receipt printer? :D

Actually, it's the receipt printer (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monster#Sound_effects) in a NYC taxicab.

Greg

bacevedo

04-09-2009, 12:22 AM

...and... what DOES lie in the shadow of the statue?
(and how did any of them get brainwashed way over on this island?)

My guess....

The temple lies in the shadow.

And they were already on the island at one time and were returning like our O6. They may have been from way back when the statue was actually intact. But that's just a guess - who knows what the writers have in store for us.

Bryan

hapdrastic

04-09-2009, 12:24 AM

Could be, but that kind of misdirection would be very, very uncharacteristic of this show.

We shall see!

Again, I don't think they ever meant to imply that the village was abandoned way-back-when. I always took it as three years having passed since we last saw it and it was now in disrepair. I think any misdirection was unintentional.

DUDE_NJX

04-09-2009, 12:34 AM

And what's in that crate? Hmmm...

The Ark of the Covenant

Philly Bill

04-09-2009, 12:42 AM

I :heart: LOST

JYoung

04-09-2009, 12:42 AM

Yeah after that "Tell Desmond I'm sorry" I was ready to throw something at my TV.

I was there with you, my first thought was "oh no, please tell me they didn't go there" because they certainly could have. Then when Charlie came up, I was thinking, that's even worse, Ben couldn't be that evil...

When Ben said "Tell Desmond I'm sorry", my first thought was "Oh crap, he killed little Charlie!"

Nice to know I was wrong.

So, what did Widmore do to get himself handcuffed and thrown off the island via sub? (Not via the wheel as some here had mused.)

They stated that he had been making (unauthorized) trips off the island and had a daughter (Penny) by an outsider.

I was surprised Cesar's dead. Definitely caught me off guard there. And what's in that crate? Hmmm...

He is now an ex-Ceaser.

Wow!
I do have to admit that the writers are turning out gold week after week.

And while Alex's ghost told Ben to follow Locke's orders, do you think he's going to do it with a smile on his face?

MickeS

04-09-2009, 12:43 AM

And what do you make of the fact that when Ben saw the 1977 picture, he didn't seem to the slightest recall that he had seen Hurley, Jack and Kate back then?

Well, Ben lies. A lot. :)

Speaking of which - who did he lie to about Locke's re-animation, Sun or Locke? I'm gonna guess he lied to Locke, and that he killed him in order to get everyone to the island, but that he didn't expect Locke to come back to life.

Great episode again. I keep finding myself checking the time and dreading the end of each episode, I just want them to go on and on right now.

gchance

04-09-2009, 01:11 AM

And while Alex's ghost told Ben to follow Locke's orders, do you think he's going to do it with a smile on his face?

Whoever said it was Alex's ghost?

Smokey surrounded Ben, read his thoughts, descended, then took the form of who he loved the most in order to communicate the message that needed to be communicated.

That was Smokey, not a ghost.

Greg

Michael S

04-09-2009, 01:16 AM

I think that John is dead and thats Jacob taking the form of Loche.

Peter000

04-09-2009, 01:21 AM

I think that John is dead and thats Jacob taking the form of Loche.

I keep going back and forth about that. Obviously Christian is an island manifestation. But Locke seems to be special. The island cured his paralysis right away, and healed his gunshot very quickly. As well as a broken leg. So it's not a stretch to think the island brought him back.

TiVoJedi

04-09-2009, 01:33 AM

So the first thing Ben does when he returns to his house 3 years later is go to the secret bathroom cave in the back and remembers to flush the toilet????Bout danm time! No wonder the monster wouldn't come out.

rgr

04-09-2009, 02:09 AM

Well, so far we never saw young Ben see Hurley, Jack and Kate. They had only been there a day before he got shot. He was unconscious the entire time Kate was near him. Plus, we know he doesn't remember the shooting so he probably doesn't remember Sayid either.

I bet he remembers Juliet though since she had been there for 3 years.Isn't it irrelevant if Ben saw or didn't see H, J, and K as a kid? That picture's been around since 1977 and wasn't it found in his house? So he must have seen it at some point. And he never thought to wonder why these folks from a picture 30 years old crashed in a jet without aging a bit?

Snappa77

04-09-2009, 03:57 AM

No Jack this entire ep.....sniff....sniff......
THIS IS THE BEST EPISODE EVER!!!!!!!

Jeeters

04-09-2009, 03:58 AM

And finally, notice how the smoke monster's judging of Ben was the same as the judging of Eko -- showing scenes of their past. Apparently Eko was weighed and found wanting, but not Ben. So, what's the smoke monster's criteria and more importantly, WHAT is it?Well, there was the second discussion between Whidmore and Ben when Whidmore was handcuffed and being escorted off the island. Whidmore suggested that Ben might have been wrong about the island not wanting Alex dead and, if that's the case, then it's only a matter of time. So maybe that fact that Bet let Alex die is actually what saved him.

Whoever said it was Alex's ghost?

Smokey surrounded Ben, read his thoughts, descended, then took the form of who he loved the most in order to communicate the message that needed to be communicated.I saw that as the island talking to Ben, not Smokey.

Jeeters

04-09-2009, 04:17 AM

Isn't it irrelevant if Ben saw or didn't see H, J, and K as a kid? That picture's been around since 1977 and wasn't it found in his house? It was found in the Processing Center building. Sun just showed it to him in his house.

cheesesteak

04-09-2009, 06:07 AM

Adios, Cesar. We hardly knew ye.

I guess either Ben missed Desmond or Desmond had his super bat-bullet deflecting Polo shirt on.

Jeeters

04-09-2009, 06:23 AM

I guess either Ben missed Desmond or Desmond had his super bat-bullet deflecting Polo shirt on.I think it was more like that Desmond must have just bought some Kevlar at the store he was returning from since it was his shopping bag that was hit.

pcguru83

04-09-2009, 06:36 AM

My guess....

The temple lies in the shadow.

And they were already on the island at one time and were returning like our O6.
I thought the same thing during one of the early scenes with the other poeple from the plane this episode. I immediately dismissed it though, as I thought that seemed maybe a bit out there.

But from that ending we saw...maybe not so much. I'm guessing they are either another O6 from an earlier (later?) time, or as someone mentioned before, they are now "sick".

Fool Me Twice

04-09-2009, 06:39 AM

Locke and Ben. Emerson and O'Quinn. When those two team up you know it's going to be a good show. I couldn't stop smiling watching Ben watch Locke walk around like he owned the place.

I was confident that Ben didn't harm Des or his family--it was telegraphed too much and the fan revolt would be tremendous. But, they completely shocked me with Caesar's death. Here I've been wondering what his purpose in the story was going to be--it was beginning to look like he was going to be a pawn of Ben and a foil of Locke--and then BAM!

Michael Emerson playing young Ben was a bit of a tough sell (I never noticed before that he resembles Paul Reubens). I liked the guy they chose for young Widmore.

When Rousseau captured Ben back in Season Two, shouldn't she have remembered the man that took her Baby? I suppose you could point out that it was dark and that it was a long time ago and that she's crazy, but I don't know... I think she should have remembered that.

Fool Me Twice

04-09-2009, 06:52 AM

Fool Me Twice

04-09-2009, 06:55 AM

"What's about to come out of this jungle, I can't control."

Enter John Locke.

Hilarious.

danplaysbass

04-09-2009, 07:24 AM

They did a superb job casting the different Widmores and the makeup used on old widmore to make him look young was excellent.

What a crazy episode! I think Desmond did get shot but it wasn't fatal. I'm fairly certain that when he jumped Ben you could see blood on his shirt.

The effects for smokey were nicely done and it was cool to get a better view of what it looks like on the inside.

Steveknj

04-09-2009, 07:44 AM

This should have been a nightly mini-series. Everytime I have to wait a week to see what happens...well lets just say, it's hard. I think that those of us who knocked season 2, are starting to realize that it really was setting up a lot of what is going on now. So looking back, it really wasn't that bad, now was it?

I love the constant role reversal between Ben and Locke from episode to episode. Ben is just not a very good follower :)

philw1776

04-09-2009, 08:04 AM

Yeah after that "Tell Desmond I'm sorry" I was ready to throw something at my TV.

I saw it coming knowing that LOST is great at misdirection. Also, Ben's flashback where he refused to kill Alex as a baby defying Widmore also left room for the possibility that although set on revenge to make Widmore suffer as he had from losing his 'adopted' daughter Alex, Ben would see her child and at least hesitate. Remember we all knew that he looked as if someone had beaten the crap out of him. Before or after he killed Penny was the question.

crowfan

04-09-2009, 08:11 AM

I thought it was absolutely *brilliant* the way Ben set up the situation with Caesar.

He manipulated Caesar into thinking that Locke was crazy and was on already on the island -- not hard to do, since Locke sounds crazy and seems to know stuff he shouldn't know. So Caesar was primed to pull the gun on Locke when Locke stood up to him. But Ben saves the day by pulling the gun on Caesar instead, and kills him to "save" Locke.

I'm not sure if that had any effect on Locke at that point, because he seems to be in some sort of communion with the island. Ben's petty games may not be affecting him the same way they used to. But either way, Ben just can't stop himself. :)

philw1776

04-09-2009, 08:15 AM

Whoever said it was Alex's ghost?

Smokey surrounded Ben, read his thoughts, descended, then took the form of who he loved the most in order to communicate the message that needed to be communicated.

That was Smokey, not a ghost.

Agree. Smokey in the past has manifested itself as dead people such as Eko's brother. Whether Somkey = The Island may be at issue, but I think of Smokey as one aspect of the Island in a way it can interact directly and presonally with humans.

Honora

04-09-2009, 08:18 AM

What a crazy episode! I think Desmond did get shot but it wasn't fatal. I'm fairly certain that when he jumped Ben you could see blood on his shirt.

It looked like Desmond was shot in the right shoulder through the grocery bag. Something in the bag could have slowed the bullet a bit, and it looked like he was clobbering Ben with only one fist.

Honora

04-09-2009, 08:20 AM

I saw it coming knowing that LOST is great at misdirection. Also, Ben's flashback where he refused to kill Alex as a baby defying Widmore also left room for the possibility that although set on revenge to make Widmore suffer as he had from losing his 'adopted' daughter Alex, Ben would see her child and at least hesitate. Remember we all knew that he looked as if someone had beaten the crap out of him. Before or after he killed Penny was the question.

Ben actually seems to have one redeeming quality. He can't seem to kill a mother in front of her child.

NoThru22

04-09-2009, 08:32 AM

There is no alternate timeline. They never intended for us to think that the village was altered. The producers even named an episode "What Happened, Happened" to possibly clear up this confusion.

The smoke monster's judgment is limited to how useful a person can be to island. It must have perceived Eko as a threat, or at least not useful.

philw1776

04-09-2009, 08:36 AM

Egyptology...
Ammit sits beneath the Scales of Justice before the throne of Osiris where she waits for the daily flow of souls to come before Osiris for judgement. During the Judging of the Heart, if the deeds of the soul being judged are found to be more wicked than good, Anubis feeds the soul to Ammit. This results in the total annihilation of the person, and there is no hope of further existence.
from AVS Forum

Goold ol Smokey.

DUDE_NJX

04-09-2009, 08:40 AM

GDG76

04-09-2009, 08:47 AM

I found it odd that they went out of their way to show fingerpaints in Ben's old house. It made it look like a kid had been living there sometime from when the island moved.

I still can't really wrap my head around what's happened on island for the last 3 years. All the people were warped out with the time shift so it should be the same state, yet there are differences. Hopefully they deal with this.. maybe not everyone jumped around in time...

Fool Me Twice

04-09-2009, 09:07 AM

Really? Don't you find it interesting that he "Went away" right before the smoke appeared and came back right after the smoke/Alex disappeared?

Well, not literally always present. But, ghosts have never stuck around camp. I think that instance you cite was just a set up for gag, nothing more. Also, if the island could simply create it's own people, what use would it have for corporeal types? And why would Smokey give Ben the business about not killing Locke again? What harm could Ben do to a ghost? Or to Smokey?

mqpickles

04-09-2009, 09:23 AM

Michael Emerson playing young Ben was a bit of a tough sell (I never noticed before that he resembles Paul Reubens). I liked the guy they chose for young Widmore.I thought they did a pretty good job with hair and makeup on Emerson. But I was thinking younger Ben looked a lot like Matthew on The Stagers on HGTV. :)

There is no alternate timeline. They never intended for us to think that the village was altered. The producers even named an episode "What Happened, Happened" to possibly clear up this confusion.True, but they also called this episode "Dead is Dead," and clearly there is an exception to that. So it might be a hint that there is an exception to "What Happened, Happened."

Scubee

04-09-2009, 09:31 AM

I loved how Ben said "I can't control what's about to come out of that jungle" or something similar and out pops Locke. He may have been speaking of Smokie, but the statement still rings true.

...maybe it was Smokie popping out as Locke. It's an interesting theory. Makes you think back through the episode to see how Locke interacted with others (as some have already pointed out). He caught the gun that Ben tossed to him so he's been physically involved, but then we know Smokie can drag, grab, uproot trees AND people as well.

04-09-2009, 09:39 AM

I'm just not sure what the writers are up to at this point. In the last village episode, they pointed very clearly to the village having been abandoned after the Purge. It seemed strange to me that this time they didn't deal with what's up with the village at all. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where they're heading.

As for the universe being broken, though, I don't see any room for doubt on that point. I think the only question is what the symptoms are and are not.

Yes, this exactly. I thought for sure this would clear up whether or not the village had changed. Apparently still not completely for some. :)

Seems in that scene or series of scenes they went out of their way to show that we were seeing that room exactly as it had been before.

Well, so far we never saw young Ben see Hurley, Jack and Kate. They had only been there a day before he got shot. He was unconscious the entire time Kate was near him. Plus, we know he doesn't remember the shooting so he probably doesn't remember Sayid either.

I bet he remembers Juliet though since she had been there for 3 years.

I guess I'm in the minority as I'm with Rob H. on this one. In fact, I think even last night they had one long shot of the processing sign, which increased my belief that something had changed. Also, whether young Ben ever saw them or not in the 70's, it makes no sense to me, as someone else posted, that none of the Others would have at least noticed Jack and company from the picture on the wall. Not saying that everyone takes the time to look at a picture that's been hanging for so long, but you'd expect at least someone to catch the fact that their prisoners appear in a picture from 1977 and, if anything, look younger now. Also, why would the Others even keep a picutre like that hanging around? So why would Ben act surprised when Sun showed him the picture? I propose that only two answers can reasonably answer this. 1) Ben was only pretending to be surprised or 2) The world around Ben and the rest of the Ajira folks has changed, but their memoires and experiences have not (I guess you could say they jumped timelines). I'm hoping the answer is number one, because the second possibility would lead Lost down a path that I don't want to see it take.

Again, I don't think they ever meant to imply that the village was abandoned way-back-when. I always took it as three years having passed since we last saw it and it was now in disrepair. I think any misdirection was unintentional.

It sure does seem that way, and I wish I could agree, but I just can't get past that Processing sign. On a show that actually has someone who's sole responsibility is continuity of props, why focus, in two episodes, on a sign that would cause unneccessary confusion. I just can't imagine that the writer's goal was to show that sign and hope that the audience would conclude, "oh well, I guess we just never saw that before when the village was run by the Others, but I'm sure it was always there."

BitbyBlit

04-09-2009, 10:00 AM

They really have picked up the pace, they're giving us regular pay offs answering significant questions, the more I adore this season, the more I'm convinced that giving them an end date really let them get back to where they needed to be from a writing and storytelling perspective.

On the other hand, even if they knew the end date since the beginning, I'm not sure they wouldn't have still waited until this season to begin tying up all the threads they set up. Even the story of the second island, which some thought was merely them padding the season, has turned out to be relevant to the overall arc.

BitbyBlit

04-09-2009, 10:01 AM

Also, his balls (knowledge+confidence) are huge now, all of a sudden. Something he wanted to be all his life just mysteriously happened. Something that would have to come from an island source...

Having an entity bring you back to life, particularly when it hasn't done so for anyone else you know of, would do a lot for your ego.

teknikel

04-09-2009, 10:06 AM

I thought they did a pretty good job with hair and makeup on Emerson. But I was thinking younger Ben looked a lot like Matthew on The Stagers on HGTV. :)

True, but they also called this episode "Dead is Dead," and clearly there is an exception to that. So it might be a hint that there is an exception to "What Happened, Happened."

Maybe the titles are just ways to delineate one episode from another and not where we should be getting deep meaning of the show. I know in this episode Ben said, "Dead is dead." But then he said that Locke was an exception. Which I take as maybe dead isn't dead. And didn't Miles say, "What happened, happened" in the episode with that title?

And as far as the timeline changing well to me this is obvious. Whether or not Ben is lying, that photo with the the 815ers + Miles is a change in the timeline, period.

Plus," what happened, happened" refers to the past. Everything that is happening for the 815ers +M in 1977... hasn't happened.

I need to start taking the Tylenol before starting these threads...

BitbyBlit

04-09-2009, 10:19 AM

So why would Ben act surprised when Sun showed him the picture?

I think Ben was genuinely surprised for one of two reasons:

1. He was surprised that the picture existed.
2. He was surprised that Sun found the picture.

Either way, I think that indicates that the room Christian showed Sun and Frank was not how it was when the Others or the Losties left the village.

Having seen apparition Alex grab Ben, we now know that the apparitions can interact with the environment. So the room being different could have been something as simple as Christian going to where Ben had hidden the pictures, getting them, and hanging them up as they originally were. Or, the picture itself could be some sort of manifestation.

Also, I agree that something is up with the Processing Center signs. While I have disagreed with other reasons why the writers might be cheating, I agree that if the signs were always there, and they just didn't show them to us earlier, that would be cheating. With how much the writers have focused on all of the details, I don't think the signs would be there unless they meant something more important than an artificial misdirection for the audience.

Rob Helmerichs

04-09-2009, 10:29 AM

On the other hand, even if they knew the end date since the beginning, I'm not sure they wouldn't have still waited until this season to begin tying up all the threads they set up. Even the story of the second island, which some thought was merely them padding the season, has turned out to be relevant to the overall arc.
Exactly. Having an end date has allowed them to stick to their plan, rather than having to pad things out to extend it. It's allowed them to NOT change things.

BitbyBlit

04-09-2009, 10:32 AM

Plus," what happened, happened" refers to the past. Everything that is happening for the 815ers +M in 1977... hasn't happened.

What "has happened" is relative to one's own timeline. This is why in a world where time travel is possible and "what happened, happened", all events must be fixed. Because it is possible in this universe for Person A to enounter Person B who's past is Person A's future, the only way for "what happened, happened" to hold is for Person A's future to also be fixed.

So a more precise description for what is happening to the 815ers is not that the events haven't happened yet, but rather that the 815ers haven't experienced them yet.

JYoung

04-09-2009, 10:37 AM

Whoever said it was Alex's ghost?

Smokey surrounded Ben, read his thoughts, descended, then took the form of who he loved the most in order to communicate the message that needed to be communicated.

That was Smokey, not a ghost.

Greg

Ok, "Alex's Ghost".

The point is Ben has been ordered to follow Locke.
Do you think he's happy about it and just going to be a "good soldier"?

DUDE_NJX

04-09-2009, 10:43 AM

Having an entity bring you back to life, particularly when it hasn't done so for anyone else you know of, would do a lot for your ego.

But it's more than an ego. It's detailed knowledge of things. Maybe he learned all that during his trip to the afterworld? (meeting with Osiris, etc.)

BitbyBlit

04-09-2009, 10:52 AM

But it's more than an ego. It's detailed knowledge of things. Maybe he learned all that during his trip to the afterworld? (meeting with Osiris, etc.)

I don't think we know for certain that Locke has any inside knowledge of the island. Jin saw the smoke monster pull Danielle's people under the Temple, so he could have told Locke about it.

As a side note, now that we have seen young Alex living in the Dharma village, that means the Others must have moved in shortly after, if not immediately after the Purge. So that puts to rest my theory that the village was abandoned for a while before the Others moved in, and thus the abandoned Processing Center was not a vision from the past, as least not the past that we know of.

crowfan

04-09-2009, 10:55 AM

Wasn't Locke himself pulled by the smoke monster towards the temple? Or did they never make it that far?

hapdrastic

04-09-2009, 11:06 AM

Desmond didn't die from the bullet because it hit a jug of milk (you can see it splash when he's shot at). Now, whether or not that would actually stop a bullet is a job for the Mythbusters!

DavidTigerFan

04-09-2009, 11:10 AM

So have we figured out what the whispers are yet? Ben told young frech chick to run when she hears them.

mqpickles

04-09-2009, 11:10 AM

What "has happened" is relative to one's own timeline. This is why in a world where time travel is possible and "what happened, happened", all events must be fixed. Because it is possible in this universe for Person A to enounter Person B who's past is Person A's future, the only way for "what happened, happened" to hold is for Person A's future to also be fixed.

So a more precise description for what is happening to the 815ers is not that the events haven't happened yet, but rather that the 815ers haven't experienced them yet.This is part of my problem with "what happened, happened" with no exceptions. It ultimately means no free will, past present or future.

YMMV (many people believe in predestination/fate anyway).

Turtleboy

04-09-2009, 11:13 AM

tewcewl

04-09-2009, 11:20 AM

This is part of my problem with "what happened, happened" with no exceptions. It ultimately means no free will, past present or future.

YMMV (many people believe in predestination/fate anyway).
Why does having a fixed universe mean no free will? We all have the choices that we can make. A fixed universe means whether you go into the past or the future all the choices made out of free will (and the consequences thereof) are known ahead of time.

mqpickles

04-09-2009, 11:21 AM

As to why Ben didn't recognize them later on? It probably didn't occur to him, becuase you know, that would be impossible. It never occured to him that these same people travelled back in time, because it would never occur to anyone.Kate and Jack, I can see that because they are good looking but bland. But Hurley is an unusual enough person that it's hard to believe you wouldn't at least notice a resemblance later on. And he lived for some time with Sawyer/James and Juliet/Juliet. And how many Jins do you suppose he encountered on the island? So they still have some 'splainin to do as to why it didn't occur to Ben that he knew them before.

tewcewl

04-09-2009, 11:21 AM

So have we figured out what the whispers are yet? Ben told young frech chick to run when she hears them.
This was another thing that intrigued me. Why did Ben tell Danielle to run the other way if she heard the voices?

tewcewl

04-09-2009, 11:22 AM

astrohip

04-09-2009, 11:29 AM

When Ben falls into the lower chamber, they make a point of showing us hieroglyphics. They focus on one in particular for about half a second. It clearly shows a smoky-like creature in front of some Egyptian god. It even has the angled surface under the creature, like the one Smoky came out of.

Here's a link...(the image is large, don't want to embed)
http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/c2895f8253605a60a50abd603290bba0.jpg

So have we figured out what the whispers are yet? Ben told young frech chick to run when she hears them.
I caught that too. I believe this is the first clear & specific reference to "the whispers" by Ben (or any of the Others).

aintnosin

04-09-2009, 11:33 AM

Desmond didn't die from the bullet because it hit a jug of milk (you can see it splash when he's shot at). Now, whether or not that would actually stop a bullet is a job for the Mythbusters!It wouldn't, but it could deflect the bullet off course, causing it to miss.

aintnosin

04-09-2009, 11:36 AM

So have we figured out what the whispers are yet? Ben told young frech chick to run when she hears them.

Reminds me of a TNG Star Trek episode where the ship is caught in a time loop. In that case, the "whispers" were the voices of the crew from a previous time. Given the amount of time hopping the island seems to do, I wonder if it's something like that here.

unicorngoddess

04-09-2009, 11:47 AM

So the whole, what lies under that statue thing...it reminded me of Desmond's question he asked Jack et al. Something about the snowmen and smelling like carrots. So the question seems like a Dharma thing. So maybe Widmore has been working with Dharma to try to find the island again.

And obviously one of the others decided to steal baby Ethan before the purge. Whose idea would that have been and how did they pull it off?

DevdogAZ

04-09-2009, 11:50 AM

So Rob, Ben's house was Ben's house, complete with that painting of a blond that looks suspiciously like Juliete. Do we agree there's less evidence now that the universe is broken?
I used to be in Rob's camp on this, but I think if it had actually changed, Ben would have said something in this episode. Therefore, I think it's just the way it was when it was New Otherton and we simply don't have an explanation for the Dharma group photos still being on the wall.
I saw it coming knowing that LOST is great at misdirection. Also, Ben's flashback where he refused to kill Alex as a baby defying Widmore also left room for the possibility that although set on revenge to make Widmore suffer as he had from losing his 'adopted' daughter Alex, Ben would see her child and at least hesitate. Remember we all knew that he looked as if someone had beaten the crap out of him. Before or after he killed Penny was the question.
I thought this was telegraphed (foreshadowed) pretty clearly. Ben couldn't kill Danielle or Alex, and he wasn't going to be able to kill Penny because he'd see Charlie. I even said so to my wife before it happened.
Wasn't Locke himself pulled by the smoke monster towards the temple? Or did they never make it that far?
Was Locke pulled by Smokie, or was it Arzt, and Locke threw the dynamite down the hole to get Arzt free?
When Ben falls into the lower chamber, they make a point of showing us hieroglyphics. They focus on one in particular for about half a second. It clearly shows a smoky-like creature in front of some Egyptian god. It even has the angled surface under the creature, like the one Smoky came out of.

Here's a link...(the image is large, don't want to embed)
http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/c2895f8253605a60a50abd603290bba0.jpg
Your link goes to a picture that says "Hotlinking is not allowed."

crowfan

04-09-2009, 11:53 AM

Was Locke pulled by Smokie, or was it Arzt, and Locke threw the dynamite down the hole to get Arzt free?In my mind, I'm picturing Locke being dragged along the ground by the smoke monster. Some time after season 1, I think. But I can't swear to it. My memory isn't that good, to be honest. :)

ETA: We're both right. From Lostpedia:

After looking up in horror, Locke stood and started running frantically. He was then "grabbed" by the Monster and dragged across the ground by his left foot. Jack was able to grab Locke by the arms as the Monster attempted to pull Locke into a hole in the ground. The black smoke was visible around Locke's ankle in two shots as he was being pulled into the hole. Locke told Jack that everything would be all right and told him to let him go. But Jack refused, ordering Kate to get the dynamite from his backpack and throw it down the hole. When she did so, there was a large explosion and Locke was released. The cloud of smoke was then seen dissipating as it retreated from the group.

I don't remember whether the hole in the ground was the temple entryway or some other hole, and the entry doesn't specify.

DevdogAZ

04-09-2009, 11:54 AM

In my mind, I'm picturing Locke being dragged along the ground by the smoke monster. Some time after season 1, I think. But I can't swear to it. My memory isn't that good, to be honest. :)
Yeah, I have a memory of that too. I also have a memory of something to do with Arzt. I think I'm getting two different situations mixed up.

crowfan

04-09-2009, 11:59 AM

I edited my response above yours. We both got parts right. :)

hanumang

04-09-2009, 12:12 PM

Rob Helmerichs

04-09-2009, 12:20 PM

I used to be in Rob's camp on this, but I think if it had actually changed, Ben would have said something in this episode. Therefore, I think it's just the way it was when it was New Otherton and we simply don't have an explanation for the Dharma group photos still being on the wall.
I still insist that something weird is going on with the Village because of the Dharma Initiative furnishings that weren't there when the Others lived there before. But clearly I was wrong as to exactly WHAT weird is going on!

And I still believe that the ultimate answer is that the universe is broken, the weirdness is a symptom, it needs to be fixed, and Ben is the man for the job (or at least he thinks he is).

DevdogAZ

04-09-2009, 12:38 PM

If Alex was about 16 when she died in late 2004, that would mean she was babynapped by Ben in 1988. That's significantly before the purge - which was what, 1991 or 1992?

So what are Ben and Ethan doing hangin' the Others in 1988? Are we supposed to believe that they 'moved' back and forth between the two camps? The Dharma folks seems awfully concerned about security and people movement, so it seems like a stretch that Ben and Ethan would simply hop the fence every night. (Not really expecting an answer right now, but I'm intrigued by the question.)

Enjoyed the episode, but I thought it was a bit of a letdown from the past 2 weeks. Cheered when Ben got taken down by Desmond, of course.
I think we can safely assume that Ben didn't simply kill off all of Dharma and take over leadership of the Others without first having significant contact with them. The fact that Ethan and Alex were not killed in the Purge simply shows that Ethan had defected prior to the Purge, and that Alex was protected by Ben because by that point he was raising her as his daughter and had come to love her.

Sirius Black

04-09-2009, 12:38 PM

Yeah, I have a memory of that too. I also have a memory of something to do with Arzt. I think I'm getting two different situations mixed up.

I thought it was Kate that was dragged along the ground way back when. Season 2, I think.

Yet another rewarding episode. For the person who stuck through the less enjoyable episodes (which IMO were still very good), this show has become probably the most consistently good show on TV right now (shows that are over or ended not counted).

mqpickles

04-09-2009, 12:40 PM

Simple. He never met them. They disappeared before the Purge. And I don't know about you, but I never really look closely into group photos that I'm not a part of, especially something from decades ago.I thought the hostiles sent Ben back to live with Dharma after he was healed from the gunshot wound? Are you saying he didn't go back (at least right away), or that even though he went back and lived with Dharma again, he never met Hurley, Jack or Kate? Both possible.

I'm trying to remember if last night's episodes had any scenes of tween Ben after he was healed. I remember him being in the sickbed and meeting Charles in 1977. And I remember Peewee Herman Ben in 1988, but nothing in between.*

Maybe I need to get a good night's sleep and re-watch the last 2-3 episodes. I'm not keeping up very well lately.

ETA: *Of course, Ben was among Dharma at the time of the Purge.

twincaminferno

04-09-2009, 12:43 PM

Seems like Smokey is like the game, "This is your life"

Alfer

04-09-2009, 12:49 PM

Seems like Smokey is like the game, "This is your life"

Felt very Wizard of Oz'ish when Smokey played back Ben's life....

04-09-2009, 12:50 PM

I think

1) Whatever happened happened.
2) The Universe is not broken.
3) Sawyer, Jack, et. al, always traveled back in time, and Sayid always shot Ben.

As to why Ben didn't recognize them later on? It probably didn't occur to him, becuase you know, that would be impossible. It never occured to him that these same people travelled back in time, because it would never occur to anyone.

It would never occur to anyone who didn't know of the possibility of time travel, but I'm not sure that Ben fits into that category. In "The Shape of Things to Come", from last season, Ben, after turning the wheel and winding up in the desert, had to ask a local person what the date was when he first reached a town. Why ask unless he knows that time does not always flow normally on the island?

DevdogAZ

04-09-2009, 12:50 PM

I thought the hostiles sent Ben back to live with Dharma after he was healed from the gunshot wound? Are you saying he didn't go back (at least right away), or that even though he went back and lived with Dharma again, he never met Hurley, Jack or Kate? Both possible.
We don't know when Ben went back to Dharma after being healed by the Others. All we know is that he acted surprised about Jack, Kate and Hurley being in that picture. As has been stated previously, either he was feigning his surprise (likely, considering who it is) or Jack, Kate and Hurley were no longer part of Dharma by the time he went back. Since we've yet to see what happens at Dharma in 1977 following the events of "What Happened, Happened," we can only speculate on the second possibility.

DevdogAZ

04-09-2009, 12:51 PM

It would never occur to anyone who didn't know of the possibility of time travel, but I'm not sure that Ben fits into that category. In "The Shape of Things to Come", from last season, Ben, after turning the wheel and winding up in the desert, had to ask a local person what the date was when he first reached a town. Why ask unless he knows that time does not always flow normally on the island?
And given that he's known Richard for 25-30 years and Richard has never aged during that time, he must know that the Island has some kind of control over time.

hanumang

04-09-2009, 01:00 PM

I think we can safely assume that Ben didn't simply kill off all of Dharma and take over leadership of the Others without first having significant contact with them.

Right, I suppose I am a little shocked by the level of contact though.

I could see him alone meeting with Richard Alpert in the jungle on occasion. But Ben and Ethan being there - to the point it seems like they're living with the Others - had to be noticed (two 'kids' missing) by the Dharma folks. Looking forward to what they (Dharma) made of all that.

(And I'm expecting we'll see that if only to answer the questions by about the 815ers in Dharma. And how/why Ethan is recruited.)

And what is the consensus on when Widmore was escorted off the island? Was that supposed to be 1991? Or earlier? Widmore mentioned via phone call to Ben that he's been attempting to get back for nearly twenty years. Unless it was an ad-lib by the actor, the Lost team is pretty diligent about time.

aintnosin

04-09-2009, 01:03 PM

teknikel

04-09-2009, 01:25 PM

I think

1) Whatever happened happened.
2) The Universe is not broken.
3) Sawyer, Jack, et. al, always traveled back in time, and Sayid always shot Ben.

As to why Ben didn't recognize them later on? It probably didn't occur to him, becuase you know, that would be impossible. It never occured to him that these same people travelled back in time, because it would never occur to anyone.

I just have trouble with this concept. So you are saying that if I was to go back in time and stop John Wilkes Booth from shooting Lincoln, it will have always happened? That can't be be, because before I time travel, Lincoln surviving has not happened for me. My history says Lincoln was shot.

Or is it that, if I were to go back to stop Booth, there is no way for me to do that because what happened, happened?

Its been 4 hours since my last 500mg...

rgr

04-09-2009, 01:26 PM

It was found in the Processing Center building. Sun just showed it to him in his house.I guess it's plausible that Ben never visited the Processing Center after 1977, but somehow not likely.

Bryanmc

04-09-2009, 01:26 PM

This stupid show. I get home from work last night at 1:30 and I can't go to sleep knowing there's new Lost on my TiVo. So I stayed up to watch it and got 4 hours of sleep.

Bryanmc

04-09-2009, 01:29 PM

Or is it that, if I were to go back to stop Booth, there is no way for me to do that because what happened, happened?
Right. If you go back to stop Lincoln's assassination (in the Lost world) you'd probably inadvertently cause it.

Turtleboy

04-09-2009, 01:57 PM

Right. If you go back to stop Lincoln's assassination (in the Lost world) you'd probably inadvertently cause it.

Which would be the way it always happened to begin with. It wouldn't be a change, but history didn't record how it really happened.

teknikel

04-09-2009, 02:21 PM

Which would be the way it always happened to begin with. It wouldn't be a change, but history didn't record how it really happened.

Hmmm.

I still don't buy that, when I started watching this show in 2004, the timeline had already been that Sayid had already time traveled to 1977 and shot Ben.

Can they come back from the future before the future happens?

robbhimself

04-09-2009, 02:22 PM

1) Whatever happened happened.
2) The Universe is not broken.
3) Sawyer, Jack, et. al, always traveled back in time, and Sayid always shot Ben.

well put.

but it looked like something clicked for ben when he saw the picture of them in 1977 and asked about jack, hurley, kate, etc being in the di, maybe he remembered that being the year that something bad happened to him and is slowly putting 2 and 2 together.

he wouldn't have knowledge of them being there because richard clearly said that ben would not remember recent events, the only ones he would remember are sawyer and juliette, and he didn't know sawyers name, only knew him by lafleur (sp?). and maybe remembering juliette saving his life cause his crush on her later.

as for changing the past, they had to be very careful while "the record was skipping" because they weren't supposed to be at those random times. when the donkey wheel was fixed time corrected itself and 1974-77 is always where they were supposed to end up

Bierboy

04-09-2009, 02:29 PM

Yeah after that "Tell Desmond I'm sorry" I was ready to throw something at my TV.

Me, too. I mumbled to myself "If Penny is dead, I'm through with this show..." or something similar....:p

lpamelaa

04-09-2009, 02:29 PM

I think Ben has a soft spot for children/mothers. Couldn't kill Alex or Danielle. Couldn't kill Penny or her son. Seems to have take Ethan under his wing.

Maybe he saved all the Dharma children before the purge?

And maybe it somehow relates back to the problems with women dying during pregnancy on the island.

And maybe it all stems from Ben not having a mother.

Turtleboy

04-09-2009, 02:32 PM

Hmmm.

I still don't buy that, when I started watching this show in 2004, the timeline had already been that Sayid had already time traveled to 1977 and shot Ben.

Can they come back from the future before the future happens?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. They can come back, to a later past, if that's what happened, or they can come back to the "present" where there are no doubles of them.

Shakhari

04-09-2009, 02:42 PM

With all the hieroglyphics, I'm beginning to think the island is supposed to be Atlantis.

teknikel

04-09-2009, 02:45 PM

Sad. I don't believe time travel is possible anymore. I hope I still can enjoy the show.

Alfer

04-09-2009, 02:48 PM

With all the hieroglyphics, I'm beginning to think the island is supposed to be Atlantis.

That's what I told my wife when they went in the Raiders mode last night.

GDG76

04-09-2009, 03:15 PM

Yes, that's exactly what happened. They can come back, to a later past, if that's what happened, or they can come back to the "present" where there are no doubles of them.

Well, if they can manage to stay long enough on the island, there can be doubles of them. Hence my theory at one point that Jacob is actually one of the Oceanic 815.

That kind of got tossed out though, cause Richard Alpert talked about Jacob when they took Ben in...

astrohip

04-09-2009, 03:15 PM

When Ben falls into the lower chamber, they make a point of showing us hieroglyphics. They focus on one in particular for about half a second. It clearly shows a smoky-like creature in front of some Egyptian god. It even has the angled surface under the creature, like the one Smoky came out of.

Here's a link...(the image is large, don't want to embed)
http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/c2895f8253605a60a50abd603290bba0.jpg

Your link goes to a picture that says "Hotlinking is not allowed."
Hmm, it works every time I click it. Oh well, here is a lo-res version...
http://home.comcast.net/~astrohip/tivo/smoky.jpg
And go here to see the originals
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2009/04/5x12-smokeys-hieroglyphics.html

Oh, and I think the god is that anybus guy. :D

JYoung

04-09-2009, 03:24 PM

With all the hieroglyphics, I'm beginning to think the island is supposed to be Atlantis.

I've considered that a possibility for a while, since "Jughead".
With Richard being one of the original inhabitants but I've been told elsewhere that the producers deny it.

(On the other hand the frozen donkey wheel could be a primitive DHD....)

philw1776

04-09-2009, 03:47 PM

Hmmm.

I still don't buy that, when I started watching this show in 2004, the timeline had already been that Sayid had already time traveled to 1977 and shot Ben.

What happened, happened.

It had happened already. You the viewer in 2004 and Sayid 2004 did not know that his FUTURE 2007 self would go back to 77 and shoot Ben. In 2004 the 77 incident had already happened but of course the 2004 earlier personal timeline did not know what HAD happened.

philw1776

04-09-2009, 03:51 PM

Sad. I don't believe time travel is possible anymore. I hope I still can enjoy the show.

I never believed time travel is possible either, but I enjoy the show. I don't believe FTL is possible but I enjoyed Battlestar Galactica. I don't believe 90% of the stuff they do on most ANY cop or adventure TV series is really possible, but I still enjoy some of them. I guess that TV is not about 'real' stuff. Whoa!

brermike

04-09-2009, 04:36 PM

And what is the consensus on when Widmore was escorted off the island? Was that supposed to be 1991? Or earlier? Widmore mentioned via phone call to Ben that he's been attempting to get back for nearly twenty years. Unless it was an ad-lib by the actor, the Lost team is pretty diligent about time.

Widmore was exiled post-Purge (since they had already taken over Dharmaville), so sometime in 1992. He was talking to Ben in early 2008 and said he had been trying to get back for nearly 20 years. So in reality it had been around 16 years, but he rounded up to 20.

stellie93

04-09-2009, 04:38 PM

Oh, and Locke is alive, that's no ghost or island manifestation. He is always present. He doesn't just appear and disappear like the other manifestations. He has private moments where he appears to be in thought. Just the whole way he's presented by the camera has a different feel than the way Christian, Walt, et al are presented.

Agreed. He even seems unsure sometimes, which Christian never does. He goes and gets something to get Ben out of the hole, and was definitely surprised when he fell in.

I found it odd that they went out of their way to show fingerpaints in Ben's old house. It made it look like a kid had been living there sometime from when the island moved.

I still can't really wrap my head around what's happened on island for the last 3 years. All the people were warped out with the time shift so it should be the same state, yet there are differences. Hopefully they deal with this.. maybe not everyone jumped around in time...

We have no idea what's happened on the island for the last 3 years--except for the few days they were time jumping, and then they weren't in those years.

I think Ben was genuinely surprised for one of two reasons:

1. He was surprised that the picture existed.
2. He was surprised that Sun found the picture.

Also, I agree that something is up with the Processing Center signs. While I have disagreed with other reasons why the writers might be cheating, I agree that if the signs were always there, and they just didn't show them to us earlier, that would be cheating. With how much the writers have focused on all of the details, I don't think the signs would be there unless they meant something more important than an artificial misdirection for the audience.

The picture was in the building where Christian saw them first, right? So that might have just been his way of showing them where the rest of the 6 went. (and making it clear to casual viewers who are confused.) But while he might have produced the picture as a visual aid, the sign is a mystery. Something we don't know yet. By the way, if the picture was around since 1977, did it always have Jack and Kate and Hurley in it? If you dug it out in say, 1988, were they on there?

We seem to be thinking that Ben didn't remember the O6 from his childhood. I think he knew timetravelers were there and expected them to come to the island at some point. He either knew when the plane crashed, or as soon as he read the manifest. Remember how excited he was when he said, "there may be survivors!"

I'm also confused by the timing of kidnapping Alex. Ben had to be with Dharma then, and it seems unlikely that Ethan, who was Horace's son could have been kidnapped. That would bring all out war, and Dharma would have been wiped out sooner. So how were they able to come and go that freely? Also, pretty risky converting the boss's son. And where did Alex live until the purge? The Others must have taken care of her as a baby.

I wonder if Widmore talked to Jacob? It seemed like Ben knew what Jacob wanted done with the baby, and Widmore didn't.

I haven't heard anyone ask Locke the big question--"where did you go when you died?"

JYoung

04-09-2009, 05:34 PM

I haven't heard anyone ask Locke the big question--"where did you go when you died?"

"Well first, we need at establish a common frame of reference.."

Church AV Guy

04-09-2009, 06:42 PM

...The picture was in the building where Christian saw them first, right? So that might have just been his way of showing them where the rest of the 6 went. (and making it clear to casual viewers who are confused.) But while he might have produced the picture as a visual aid, the sign is a mystery. Something we don't know yet...
Many are talking about the implications of the sign,and I think it's not something that we should be looking into the past episodes for, but waiting for a future revelation. They have made it a point of showing, even dwelling for a second or two on the sign, at least twice. I think it will have a significance, but not for us to figure out from what has been shown.

mqpickles

04-09-2009, 07:11 PM

Well, if they can manage to stay long enough on the island, there can be doubles of them. Hence my theory at one point that Jacob is actually one of the Oceanic 815.

That kind of got tossed out though, cause Richard Alpert talked about Jacob when they took Ben in...

Many are talking about the implications of the sign,and I think it's not something that we should be looking into the past episodes for, but waiting for a future revelation. They have made it a point of showing, even dwelling for a second or two on the sign, at least twice. I think it will have a significance, but not for us to figure out from what has been shown.

No, not for us to figure out yet, but certainly it is for us to surmise/speculate about. :)

Turtleboy

04-09-2009, 07:15 PM

aintnosin

04-09-2009, 07:38 PM

So Ben told Locke that he knew that Locke would come back to life. Ben told Sun that he is shocked that Locke is standing there, and that dead is dead, no matter what.

Which one is closer to the truth of what Ben knew and believed?Well, if I was face to face with someone I had murdered, I would certainly want him to think I planned it that way all along. :D

PKurmas

04-09-2009, 07:43 PM

My guess....

The temple lies in the shadow.

And they were already on the island at one time and were returning like our O6. They may have been from way back when the statue was actually intact. But that's just a guess - who knows what the writers have in store for us.

Bryan

My further guess... these folks have something to do with the "war" that Widmore warned Locke was coming. I doubt there's anything crazy about them.

And I'd really like to know how they knew that Ajira 316 would take them to the island, 'cause that's no mistake... not with a container of supplies and several collaborators. Did they also use the Lamp Post? Or is there a second similar "station"? And who's behind them? Hanso et al?

Guess I gotta wait.

Turtleboy

04-09-2009, 07:54 PM

At first I thought the island just made the new peeps crazy. Now after reading this thread, I'm thinking that they are all Widemore's people.

However, none of them knew of each other. But they were all given a secret quetion and password to identify each other. "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is that quesiton. They were trying to see if Lapidus was one of them. When he couldn't answer the question, they realized he wasn't.

Bryanmc

04-09-2009, 09:00 PM

"Well first, we need at establish a common frame of reference.."

:up: :D

Dad

04-09-2009, 10:53 PM

Speculation, but I'm fairly sure they're Widmore's people. Ben told Widmore he and the 06 were going back to the island, so Widmore probably had the 06 shadowed and figured out what was going on. He probably even facilitated Sayid's "arrest" by the woman who was one of the leaders.

I figure the container is a device to allow Widmore to find the island again.

Great how they showed both sides of a Ben conversation. I now will never, ever believe anything Ben says, he's always working the room so to speak.

teknikel

04-10-2009, 02:03 AM

I think we finally know who was shooting at the time travelers.

atrac

04-10-2009, 04:43 AM

Emmy for Michael Giacchino

I couldn't agree more. His score has always been exceptional, but his work for tonight's episode really nailed it.

I look forward to his score for the new "Star Trek" film as well.

Magister

04-10-2009, 08:01 AM

From this point forward, Ben will be helping Locke. Until the encounter with Alex, he was still schemeing. Alex made it clear that it has to stop and Ben has to help out Locke.

I am starting to feel sad that I will miss this show greatly after next season. It is cranking hard right now. Nothing else on TV can match it.

Rosincrans

04-10-2009, 08:24 AM

When Ben and Locke showed up in Dharmaville, was it the same night that Sun and Lapidas talked to Christian? Or were they waiting more than a day? If people keep arriving there at night, it does make me think there are some visual details that they are trying to keep from showing the audience.

loubob57

04-10-2009, 08:25 AM

Great how they showed both sides of a Ben conversation. I now will never, ever believe anything Ben says, he's always working the room so to speak.

However, it now turns out that he was telling the truth when he said Alex wasn't his daughter, that he took her from a crazy woman. But I think he did lie when he said she meant nothing to him.

jlb

04-10-2009, 09:21 AM

This may be the first series on TV that when it ends, I will rush to watch it again from the very beginning.

Ok, stupid "I can't keep everything straight" question.......

IIRC, Penny and Desomnd's baby was named after Charlie, right? However, could he not turn out to be our Charlie? Could he not somehow go back in time and end up being our Charlie?

And, I would so love to see Michael Emerson win an Emmy for his acting. When he woke up and saw Locke, from that point forward, he seemed to nail the facial expressions and body language of someone who is very stressed about no longer "being in control".

04-10-2009, 09:27 AM

Many are talking about the implications of the sign,and I think it's not something that we should be looking into the past episodes for, but waiting for a future revelation. They have made it a point of showing, even dwelling for a second or two on the sign, at least twice. I think it will have a significance, but not for us to figure out from what has been shown.

Agreed, but many are saying that based on this episode, it can be definitively concluded that the only explanation for the Dharma village being in the state it's in is from the mercenary attack that resulted in Alex's death and three years of being abandoned. Some of us are just pointing out the sign as evidence that there might be another explanation that we haven't been given yet (and one such explanation would be that something changed).

So Ben told Locke that he knew that Locke would come back to life. Ben told Sun that he is shocked that Locke is standing there, and that dead is dead, no matter what.

Which one is closer to the truth of what Ben knew and believed?

My guess is that everything Ben told Sun is a lie, including that he didn't have any knowledge of the photo. I can picture the following conversation later in the season:

Sun: But you told me you didn't know anything about Jin being in 1977?

Ben: Sorry, but the last time I had seen you, you wacked me in the head with a boat oar, so you'll excuse me if I wasn't exactly comfortable confiding in you just then.

At first I thought the island just made the new peeps crazy. Now after reading this thread, I'm thinking that they are all Widemore's people.

However, none of them knew of each other. But they were all given a secret quetion and password to identify each other. "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is that quesiton. They were trying to see if Lapidus was one of them. When he couldn't answer the question, they realized he wasn't.

I like this idea alot.

philw1776

04-10-2009, 09:31 AM

IIRC, Penny and Desomnd's baby was named after Charlie, right? However, could he not turn out to be our Charlie? Could he not somehow go back in time and end up being our Charlie?

Gawd I hope not. Frightening to think that the gorgeous Penny could spawn a Hobbit.

Philosofy

04-10-2009, 09:33 AM

Everyone is saying Danielle was crazy, but I thought Ben taking Alex was the thing that put her over the edge. Did I miss something?

brermike

04-10-2009, 10:01 AM

Everyone is saying Danielle was crazy, but I thought Ben taking Alex was the thing that put her over the edge. Did I miss something?

Well, she was going on an on about Ben being a carrier or the source of the sickness (don't remember the exact dialog), so she did sound a big crazy. I would imagine, the shipwreck, losing/killing her team, seeing an asian man disappear, and giving birth alone would make one a little crazy :)

DevdogAZ

04-10-2009, 11:58 AM

However, it now turns out that he was telling the truth when he said Alex wasn't his daughter, that he took her from a crazy woman. But I think he did lie when he said she meant nothing to him.
What do you mean "it now turns out?" We've known for a couple of seasons that Alex was Danielle's daughter that was was stolen from her shortly after she was born and was raised by Ben.
Ok, stupid "I can't keep everything straight" question.......

IIRC, Penny and Desomnd's baby was named after Charlie, right? However, could he not turn out to be our Charlie? Could he not somehow go back in time and end up being our Charlie?
Didn't Charlie Pace have an older brother that was in his band? I suppose it's possible that something happened to Desmond and Penny, and Charlie somehow went back in time and was adopted by the Pace family, but I highly doubt that will end up being the case. If anything like that does happen, I think it's more likely that little Charlie goes back in time and becomes Charles Widmore. I don't really think that's going to happen, but I think it's more likely than little Charlie becoming Charlie Pace.

bacevedo

04-10-2009, 12:13 PM

IIRC, Penny and Desomnd's baby was named after Charlie, right? However, could he not turn out to be our Charlie? Could he not somehow go back in time and end up being our Charlie?

That would be an interesting plot point, but I remember a few seasons ago seeing Charlie backstories with his family (and brother) and it wasn't Penny and Desmond as his parents. If I remember correctly he had some crazy dreams about his dad taking him to a butcher and his brother playing the piano in his underwear (or something like that). Those were some crazy scenes.

Bryan

Edit: DevDogAz's post wasn't there when I posted! I swear! :) And Go Devils!

aintnosin

04-10-2009, 12:16 PM

If anything like that does happen, I think it's more likely that little Charlie goes back in time and becomes Charles Widmore. So little Charlie goes back in time to sire his own mother? I like it.

Bananfish

04-10-2009, 01:02 PM

I always hesitate when being tempted into posting in a Lost thread, since I have spent nowhere near the mental energy "solving" this show that many of you have.

BUT, with that preface ....

I have always been struck by Ben's reaction in the scene from long ago, shown several times during the series, when he and the Others see the Oceanic plane break apart as it flies over the island. Ben's demeanor in that scene has always said to me that he was expecting something exactly like that to happen, and his barking out orders has always said to me that he had prepared for exactly what he and the Others needed to do when it did.

So I would be surprised if Ben didn't know about time travel and that a plane crash would deliver to him the Losties. He also asks for the passenger list, suggesting to me that he expected certain passengers to be on board ... like time travelers Hurley, Jack and Kate.

OK, go ahead and tear me a new one as you provide alternate explanations. :-)

Supfreak26

04-10-2009, 01:06 PM

I think the sign is a simple device to show what time frame the show is currently in.

There you go. Mystery solved.

aintnosin

04-10-2009, 01:08 PM

hanumang

04-10-2009, 01:15 PM

It was post purge, because the Other's were living in Dharmaville, so at least '92.

Widmore was exiled post-Purge (since they had already taken over Dharmaville), so sometime in 1992. He was talking to Ben in early 2008 and said he had been trying to get back for nearly 20 years. So in reality it had been around 16 years, but he rounded up to 20.

Thanks guys, I totally blanked on the Dharmaville setup (all this jumping around is hurting my brain).

I suppose that bring up another question that we can speculate on: how did the Others - or Widmore, in particular - get on/off the Island? Donkey Wheel?

And since it never occurred to me, what exactly is the deal with the sub? Did the Others simply take over the logistics of that? I mean, if that was the Dharma folks' thing - understanding that the Island folks were purged - wouldn't Ann Arbor have something to say/do after everything went down?

I'm curious to see if we get an answer.

Rob Helmerichs

04-10-2009, 01:21 PM

I suppose that bring up another question that we can speculate on: how did the Others - or Widmore, in particular - get on/off the Island? Donkey Wheel?
Widmore was taken off the island in handcuffs, on the sub (in this very episode).

hanumang

04-10-2009, 01:36 PM

Widmore was taken off the island in handcuffs, on the sub (in this very episode).

Right, but he was banished - due to Linus' trickery, according to his conversation with Locke earlier this season - because he (apparently illegally) routinely left the island, even fathering a daughter.

If that is true - and we have no reason to believe that Penny isn't his daughter, do we? - how did he routinely get on/off island?

And what is the (possible) story with the sub? Fine, the Island was purged of Dharma people, but considering their homebase was elsewhere (Ann Arbor, Michigan) what is the explanation for the continued use of the sub? I mean, private planes, fine. But a private sub isn't a usual thing. Gotta believe that somebody keeps an eye out for that. Does Ann Arbor not realize/know what happened? This isn't the first inkling that Dharma is possibly unaware (there is the food drop, too) but still, lots of questions to be answered. Well, I hope they get answered.

Rob Helmerichs

04-10-2009, 02:36 PM

Right, but he was banished - due to Linus' trickery, according to his conversation with Locke earlier this season - because he (apparently illegally) routinely left the island, even fathering a daughter.

If that is true - and we have no reason to believe that Penny isn't his daughter, do we? - how did he routinely get on/off island?
I don't think he ever illegally left the island. It was what he did while off the island that was illegal.

We've known for a long time that the Others have (had) ready access to the real world. Ben obviously came and went frequently, Richard (dating back to the 50s), Mr. Friendly...

brermike

04-10-2009, 02:56 PM

I don't think he ever illegally left the island. It was what he did while off the island that was illegal.

We've known for a long time that the Others have (had) ready access to the real world. Ben obviously came and went frequently, Richard (dating back to the 50s), Mr. Friendly...

I've been wondering about this myself. We know the Other have a way of getting off the island, aside from the sub. We just don't know what it is. For example, in Jughead, in 1954, long before the Dharma sub arrives, Richard says that getting off the island "is very privileged information" when speaking with John. We've also seen Richard visiting Locke in 1956, again before the Dharma sub is around. I bet we will find out soon!

jkeegan

04-10-2009, 02:57 PM

Felt very Wizard of Oz'ish when Smokey played back Ben's life....:) Now I want to play Pink Floyd's "Great Gig in the Sky" as the sound with the visual of the smoke monster swirling around Ben. :)

edrego

04-10-2009, 02:59 PM

hanumang

04-10-2009, 03:16 PM

I don't think he ever illegally left the island. It was what he did while off the island that was illegal.

Well, Ben's dialogue made it out to be that regular trips off the island weren't OK - at least at that point - though yes, that wasn't Widmore's only violation. ("You left the island regularly. You had a daughter with an outsider. You broke the rules, Charles.")

Now, is he telling the whole truth. Probably not. But he usually waters the seed of truth to suit his needs.

And I'm not sure Richard is a good litmus test for anyone else, as Richard's exact place/postion with the Others isn't clear. We do know he can do things outside of the normal (Widmore/Hawking) chain of command since he reports directly to the head man (Jacob!).

Ben and Mr. Friendly, well, considering those are well into the post-purge era, not sure if I'd present that as solid evidence.

But all this brings up another point: I hope we learn what Ben's trick was in getting Widmore booted. I guess the most serous transgression was fathering Penny.

DUDE_NJX

04-10-2009, 03:20 PM

Personally, I'm sick and tired of all the "rules" and what "the island wants" and "because it's supposed to be this way" crap. Would the show really be done if someone gave a straight answer as to WHY other than "Because."?
I don't think it would spoil everything, but surely the show would be much less annoying.

JYoung

04-10-2009, 03:39 PM

Well, Ben's dialogue made it out to be that regular trips off the island weren't OK - at least at that point - though yes, that wasn't Widmore's only violation. ("You left the island regularly. You had a daughter with an outsider. You broke the rules, Charles.")

Now, is he telling the whole truth. Probably not. But he usually waters the seed of truth to suit his needs.

I thought that part of the issue was that they were unauthorized trips.

hanumang

04-10-2009, 03:49 PM

I thought that part of the issue was that they were unauthorized trips.

I suspect that's how it'll play out.

But I have to wonder how he could have gotten away with even one unauthorized trip without being ratted out. Granted, he probably had folks cover for him while he 'searched the forest' or something, but after a short while - and he was on the island from 1955 to 1992 - somebody had to pick up on it. Hard to imagine Ben was the only one.

I'm excited about how much we're learning - even if it only is in little bit - about the Others. Fascinating stuff.

vertigo235

04-10-2009, 04:05 PM

I suspect that's how it'll play out.

But I have to wonder how he could have gotten away with even one unauthorized trip without being ratted out. Granted, he probably had folks cover for him while he 'searched the forest' or something, but after a short while - and he was on the island from 1955 to 1992 - somebody had to pick up on it. Hard to imagine Ben was the only one.

I'm excited about how much we're learning - even if it only is in little bit - about the Others. Fascinating stuff.

Maybe he only started doing it after the purge.

hanumang

04-10-2009, 04:22 PM

Maybe he only started doing it after the purge.

The thought had crossed my mind, but considering that Penny is about 35 years old in 2008, the trips probably started earlier than 1992. With some exceptions (Charlotte and Richard come to mind, for different reasons), the producers tend to make characters the age of the actor playing them in the 'present;' Sonya Walger will be 34.

Also, Widmore is very wealthy. Unless it was inherited - a possibility, though unlikely - it takes time to build that level of wealth.

Fun to speculate on. Hopefully we'll get an answer soon.

So did Ben really think dead is dead? And has he ever cross paths with Christian? I wasn't sure by the look on his face if he had (when Sun mentioned the name).

stellie93

04-10-2009, 05:09 PM

So I would be surprised if Ben didn't know about time travel and that a plane crash would deliver to him the Losties. He also asks for the passenger list, suggesting to me that he expected certain passengers to be on board ... like time travelers Hurley, Jack and Kate.

I had the exact same thought.

So did I--about 2 pages ago in this thread. ;)

We seem to be thinking that Ben didn't remember the O6 from his childhood. I think he knew timetravelers were there and expected them to come to the island at some point. He either knew when the plane crashed, or as soon as he read the manifest. Remember how excited he was when he said, "there may be survivors!"

I think the sign is a simple device to show what time frame the show is currently in.

There you go. Mystery solved.

Which is? I thought the opposite--that the sign doesn't seem to be from the same timeframe that the show is currently in. Or do you think that Sun and Ben are in 1977? :confused:

I keep confusing Dharma with the Others once they were living in the village. Who does Smokey belong to? Since Ben's house has an entrance to it, you have to assume Dharma knew it was there, but I also thought that the Others must have had it before that. Did they let Dharma play with it? Or was that entrace put in after the Purge? Or am I totally confused? (yeah, that's it)

TiVotion

04-10-2009, 05:11 PM

"What lies in the shadow of the Temple"?

Benjamin Linus.

Benjamin Linus LIES in the shadow of The Temple. He lies everywhere.

DUDE_NJX

04-10-2009, 05:13 PM

"What lies in the shadow of the Temple"?

Benjamin Linus.

Benjamin Linus LIES in the shadow of The Temple. He lies everywhere.

LOL :up:

TiVotion

04-10-2009, 05:17 PM

Whoops. I said "Temple", though. I think it might have been "statue".

Either way, I stand by the answer!

aintnosin

04-10-2009, 06:04 PM

For the less spoiler-phobic:
The last episode of the season is entitled: "The Incident."

philw1776

04-10-2009, 06:56 PM

aintnosin

04-10-2009, 06:57 PM

Assuming he wasn't mis-quoted isn't this a major mis-direction (i.e. lie) or an indication, contrary to my view before reading this, that they did NOT have a plan? Opinions?
I vote for misdirection.

Turtleboy

04-10-2009, 06:59 PM

wprager

04-10-2009, 08:02 PM

I'm a fan of the show and think there has been some good writing over the life of the show. However, this whole business of time travel is going to be a make or break thing for them.

Since time travel is such a popular sci/fi plot device, its gets kinda old in how you present it and resolve all the "time loop" questions. Unless they have a groundbreaking way to explain time travel and resolve all the "time loop" questions in way that has never been told before, this show will have a disastrous crash and burn finale when it ends.

I know this is a TV show and its fiction but your story should be "plausible" within the universe you create. Once you start "breaking the rules" of your story universe, then your story starts to fall apart and then you start "making things up as you go."

The creators of the show have always promised us that they wouldn't "cheat" on certain things. Whatever they presented to us would be fully explainable and they wouldn't leave any stone unturned. I have been trusting them to stay true to this promise but I'm getting concerned with all this time travel stuff that they will have to rely on "cheating" to get themselves out of the plot holes that they created. The first sign of this is when Richard said that Ben would "forget what happened" (or something to that effect) when they took him back to the Others camp to get healed. Memory loss is such a cheap way to get yourself out a plot hole. And then, there are problems of what he forgot and what he remembers. When he wakes up, he doesn't remember the shooting but he remembers that he has a father and the others back at the Dharma camp and he also remembers why he wanted to leave the camp and come to them. (which is part of the reason he got shot because he was escaping with Sayid)

I'm holding on but I just have this feeling in my stomach that the writing is going to get sloppy with the cheap tricks to get them out of all these questions they have created, specifically with this time travel arc. I wish they didn't go down that path of time travel because there are so many problems with trying to explain it.

It's very common for someone who was in a serious incident to not remember the events leading up to it. It's not implausible that Ben would not remember much about the last day or few after being shot and nearly dying.

There is also something about how he was made well in the temple. Maybe the Island could fix his body, but his "spirit" had to be "rewound" to a time before he was shot.

Or something completely different. I'm not sure exactly what Richard meant -- how much would he not remember? A day? A week? And even if he didn't get a mind wipe, how likely is it for him to remember specific people (other than Hurley)? Think back, were you at some summer camp when you were 12? Do you remember everyone on the camp staff? How much time would he have spent with Jack, Kate and so on? Even Sawyer -- he was the Chief of Security, would he really have that much interaction with a snot-nosed 12 year old? This isn't TNG and Ben is not Wesley. From our point of view, sure, we're seeing these characters in avery other scene, but in reality they are just a handful of people out of 100 (or more?) adults. With the exception of Sayid, Ben probably wants to spend more time with the (few) kids that they have there.

And as for Sayid, it is quite understandable (from natural causes) that he would not remember much leading up to being shot.

Plus we don't yet know how much longer the Losties will be with Dharma. Maybe they're gone in the next episode.

04-11-2009, 07:28 AM

The creators of the show have always promised us that they wouldn't "cheat" on certain things. Whatever they presented to us would be fully explainable and they wouldn't leave any stone unturned. I have been trusting them to stay true to this promise but I'm getting concerned with all this time travel stuff that they will have to rely on "cheating" to get themselves out of the plot holes that they created. The first sign of this is when Richard said that Ben would "forget what happened" (or something to that effect) when they took him back to the Others camp to get healed. Memory loss is such a cheap way to get yourself out a plot hole. And then, there are problems of what he forgot and what he remembers. When he wakes up, he doesn't remember the shooting but he remembers that he has a father and the others back at the Dharma camp and he also remembers why he wanted to leave the camp and come to them. (which is part of the reason he got shot because he was escaping with Sayid)

In fairness, it's not as if Ben getting shot by Sayid was setup a long time ago and they simply created the memory loss as a way of avoiding explaining Ben not showing any signs that he remembered. They had Ben shoot Sayid in one episode, and we were told in the very next episode that he wouldn't remember. I don't know that it's fair to call this cheating before seeing how it plays out. They could have avoided the appearance of cheating by not even having Sayid shoot Ben and having him escape in a completely different way. I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt on this one for now.

I think they changed their minds. Despite what anyone says, when they started, they didn't know where they were going or how it was going to end.

I agree that they probably didn't have everything planned from the very begining, as I think I've read that they weren't even sure that they'd make it past the initial 13 episode order. I do think, however, that by the middle of the first season, they realized that they had a good shot of being on for awhile and came up with a general direction of where things were headed and kept this direction in mind with any far out ideas they decided to throw in so as to ensure that they could explain them away later on.

Rob Helmerichs

04-11-2009, 07:51 AM

I agree that they probably didn't have everything planned from the very begining, as I think I've read that they weren't even sure that they'd make it past the initial 13 episode order. I do think, however, that by the middle of the first season, they realized that they had a good shot of being on for awhile and came up with a general direction of where things were headed and kept this direction in mind with any far out ideas they decided to throw in so as to ensure that they could explain them away later on.
Well, they've said they had the ending before they started, and I don't think they're lying...

philw1776

04-11-2009, 08:23 AM

Well, they've said they had the ending before they started, and I don't think they're lying...

How do you reconcile that position with the creator's statement that "there's no time travel" in LOST?

Fool Me Twice

04-11-2009, 08:30 AM

He said they hadn't shown anything yet ("yet" being the middle of season one") that couldn't have a rational explanation. Not that we wouldn't see something with no rational explanation. And not that we wouldn't see spaceships or time travel in future seasons.

Rob Helmerichs

04-11-2009, 08:52 AM

How do you reconcile that position with the creator's statement that "there's no time travel" in LOST?
I wait until they show something in the series that makes that statement take on a different meaning.

I'm sure there will be a moment when we'll look back at that and say, "Oh, so THAT'S what they meant by that!"

edrego

04-11-2009, 10:00 AM

In fairness, it's not as if Ben getting shot by Sayid was setup a long time ago and they simply created the memory loss as a way of avoiding explaining Ben not showing any signs that he remembered. They had Ben shoot Sayid in one episode, and we were told in the very next episode that he wouldn't remember. I don't know that it's fair to call this cheating before seeing how it plays out. They could have avoided the appearance of cheating by not even having Sayid shoot Ben and having him escape in a completely different way. I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt on this one for now.

I agree that they probably didn't have everything planned from the very begining, as I think I've read that they weren't even sure that they'd make it past the initial 13 episode order. I do think, however, that by the middle of the first season, they realized that they had a good shot of being on for awhile and came up with a general direction of where things were headed and kept this direction in mind with any far out ideas they decided to throw in so as to ensure that they could explain them away later on.

Guys, they had this stuff figured out pretty early on and since the time travel arc is a major part of the show now and given that we are on the next to the last seaosn, I'm pretty sure this was the "big target" they were aimming for from the beginning. If my assumption is correct, they had to think about how they were going to present time travel and answer the "age old" questions that go with it like "time looping" and "son before mother" questions that always plague time travel stories. They knew people were going to start up these discussions and I believe they have no good answers to make it different from any other time travel story so we start seeing the cheats like memory loss to get themselves out the corner they painted themselves in.

Until I see a solid explaintion of this time travel stuff, I will hold on to the belief that they started the "jumping the shark" portion of the show once they introduced time travel and the moving of the island. I just don't see how they are going to get themselves out of the time travel pit without cheating. I know they are creative but once they went down the time travel path (something that is not original or creative in any stretch of the imagination) they put a potentially fatal plot hole in their story.

Rob Helmerichs

04-11-2009, 10:18 AM

Until I see a solid explaintion of this time travel stuff, I will hold on to the belief that they started the "jumping the shark" portion of the show once they introduced time travel and the moving of the island. I just don't see how they are going to get themselves out of the time travel pit without cheating. I know they are creative but once they went down the time travel path (something that is not original or creative in any stretch of the imagination) they put a potentially fatal plot hole in their story.
That's a perfectly valid personal belief for you to have, but I hope you don't expect writers to never write time travel stories just because you can't handle them!

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 10:30 AM

Rob Helmerichs

04-11-2009, 10:48 AM

But like any story, at some point they sat down and said, "Ok, this is successful, where are we going." Probably towards the middle of Season 3 where the worst aimlessness is.
But there was no aimlessness in the middle of Season 3. It only seemed like that at the time, but now we can see how those pieces fall into place.

I know that a writer who joined the show between Seasons 2 and 3 told a friend of his what the Big Plan for the show was, and that the friend believed the writer when he says that the Plan was in place from the beginning and that it will be obvious when the show was over that it was in place from the beginning. I also know that the show's creators said back during the first season that they knew the ending. It would be stupid for them to have lied about it. I believe them, and I think all the people who are accusing them of lying are going to feel silly when the show is over.

Philosofy

04-11-2009, 10:49 AM

When the producers said there wasn't any time travel, did they mean "at this point in the story"? IIRC, in season 1 there was a lot of speculation that the island was prehistoric.

tewcewl

04-11-2009, 10:54 AM

The quote in this source bothers me...

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/handheld/30246.html

"Lindelof [January 2005] said it won't venture too far into science fiction as its mysteries unfold. "We're still trying to be ... firmly ensconced in the world of science fact," he said in an interview. "I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel." "

Assuming he wasn't mis-quoted isn't this a major mis-direction (i.e. lie) or an indication, contrary to my view before reading this, that they did NOT have a plan? Opinions?

And what precisely is impossible about spaceships (vs say psychic phenomena?)
This was obviously a mis-direction. What they ingeniously did was take a show that wasn't overtly sci-fi (just a few unexplained mysteries) and hooked into those people who don't normally watch sci-fi from the beginning and gradually dropped them into sci-fi territory. I think it's great. I know people who don't normally watch these shows watching LOST because they got hooked in the beginning.

I"m still firmly of the belief that they didn't know where they were going in Season 1 or Season 2. They didn't know what the numbers meant or what the monster was going to be. They didn't know about the Others.

But like any story, at some point they sat down and said, "Ok, this is successful, where are we going." Probably towards the middle of Season 3 where the worst aimlessness is.
Damon Lindelof has been on record saying that Adam and Eve (in Season 1) is going to be their proof that they planned this whole arc way back.

latrobe7

04-11-2009, 10:56 AM

I think that they have known many things about the story and character arcs, including the overall ending, from the start and I think we're going to find that the ending isn't dependant on time-travel and that the time travel storyline was incorporated as the show went along.

I don't know why Damon Lindelhoff said there would be no time-travel when clearly there is; but I would speculate that at the time of that interview there wasn’t. Maybe they were even having that argument internally at the time; who knows – but I bet we will get an answer when it’s all said and done. I do think that they have known there was time-travel in the show from the start of season 2 and the introduction of Desmond.

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 11:19 AM

Razzle Dazzle!

latrobe7

04-11-2009, 11:23 AM

I"m still firmly of the belief that they didn't know where they were going in Season 1 or Season 2. They didn't know what the numbers meant or what the monster was going to be. They didn't know about the Others.

But like any story, at some point they sat down and said, "Ok, this is successful, where are we going." Probably towards the middle of Season 3 where the worst aimlessness is.

I think that they have known where they ultimately wanted to go all along, but they couldn't start their endgame story while the series had an indefinite ending - if they where expected to keep the show going they couldn't do the endgame story because once that plays out the show is over. So they had to introduce other plot lines to fill in.

I think they knew the role the numbers would play in the story, but what the numbers are, or how they have influence isn't supposed to make sense.*

I don't think they knew much about the Others. I think the writers knew that there were native inhabitants on the island, but that's about it. There's a lot that doesn't make sense to me about the Others and I do feel that if they're not well explained by the end, that will be a big weakness in the show for me.

I would be willing to bet money that they have known what the monster is from the start; and if they didn't, I think that would be a deal-breaker for me...

*Before anyone quotes Lostpedia, I know about the Valenzetti Equation, thanks

Rob Helmerichs

04-11-2009, 11:48 AM

I think that they have known where they ultimately wanted to go all along, but they couldn't start their endgame story while the series had an indefinite ending - if they where expected to keep the show going they couldn't do the endgame story because once that plays out the show is over. So they had to introduce other plot lines to fill in.
Except the original plan for the series was five seasons, and that's how long it's going to be (with the final two seasons' worth of episodes divided among three seasons). So there was never any padding needed to keep the story going.

Which is not to say they haven't added anything along the way. Only that the show isn't lasting an episode longer than they planned it to when they started.

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 11:53 AM

Are we allowed to talk about The Stand without upsetting the spoiler people? There is a nuclear bomb buried on the island. Which of the characters is Trashcan Man?

wprager

04-11-2009, 11:58 AM

I"m still firmly of the belief that they didn't know where they were going in Season 1 or Season 2. They didn't know what the numbers meant or what the monster was going to be. They didn't know about the Others.

But like any story, at some point they sat down and said, "Ok, this is successful, where are we going." Probably towards the middle of Season 3 where the worst aimlessness is.

In Season 1 they had Adam and Eve. Right at that point I (and many others) expected that we will find out who these people were at the end of the series, and that these people will be either Jack and Kate, or Sawyer and Kate or -- as more characters started being introduced -- Desmond and Penny, Jack and Juliet, Sawyer and Juliet, etc, etc.

Now, if that doesn't pretty much guarantee some kind of time travel, then I don't know what else it could be. So I would say that, back in S1, many people here were already expecting some kind of time-travel plotline. And, of course, if we end up being correct about "Adam and Eve" being someone we already know, then the producers had already planned it this way.

tewcewl

04-11-2009, 12:00 PM

For the current conversation regarding what Team Darlton said about time travel and how far in advance they've planned the show:

This blog, I thought, explains very well the context of the scifiwire quote that's been quoted here.

http://blog.timelypersuasion.com/blog/?p=422 (http://blog.timelypersuasion.com/blog/?p=422)

And then here's a snippet from their very first podcast on November 8, 2005 (during season 2) that I think is hilarious in hindsight.

Carlton Cuse: You're not going to tell them about the time travel, are you?

Damon Lindelof: No, no, I'm not going to. In fact, I'm going to go back in time and prevent you from having said that. [Laughs]

Carlton Cuse: Oh my God.

Damon Lindelof: But there are, sort of bigger picture elements in play that are multi-season arcs as opposed to just a seasonal arc, which is sort of the day-to-day of what we do when we come in and eat breakfast together.
A full transcript of the podcast can be found here:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast_transcript/November_08%2C_2005 (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast_transcript/November_08%2C_2005)

04-11-2009, 12:53 PM

Well, they've said they had the ending before they started, and I don't think they're lying...

Well, don't count me as one of those sayiing that they're lying, but I could have sworn that I read an interview towards the end of season 1 where one of TPTB said that it wasn't until part way through the season when they sat down and mapped out in detail the overall story arc. I guess that doesn't preculde that they had an ending in mind from the get go, but not necessarily the general road map that they would take. Or, I could just be remembering wrong. I will say this, however: the french woman's voice from the first episode was not the same actress who played her starting in the middle of the season. If everything were planned out from the start, I'd have thought they would have used the same voice for consistency sake.

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 12:58 PM

It's a silly argument, anyway. I'm enjoying the story. Whether they knew it from the beginning, or made it up later, it doesn't really matter to me.

stellie93

04-11-2009, 03:14 PM

Rob is clearly a Man of Faith. I'm sticking with the writers till I can't any more, and then I doubt if I'll care.

A couple things...I'm not sure I get why Ben letting Alex be killed is such a big deal compared to some other things he's done. Is this the only time he did something that wasn't what the island wanted him to do? (killing Locke, blowing up the freighter, shooting Caesar and all of Widmore's men) Plus, what were the chances that Keamy would let her live if he surendered?

Sayid doesn't seem to be with the Others, so where has he spent the last 3 years? Also still waiting to hear about Faraday.

Ben said there was a wall around the temple to keep people from seeing it. Wonder what it looks like? It must not be too huge, and surely there would be some vantage point from which it is visible. If it's an actual building...

I noticed that young Widmore rode into the Others camp on a horse. Have we seen them riding before? Maybe Kate's horse was just a horse.

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 03:18 PM

Sayid doesn't seem to be with the Others, so where has he spent the last 3 years? Also still waiting to hear about Faraday.
.

Sayid? He left the island, got married, and his wife killed, became Ben's assassin, and went to build houses in Latin America.

stellie93

04-11-2009, 03:22 PM

Sayid? He left the island, got married, and his wife killed, became Ben's assassin, and went to build houses in Latin America.

Duh!! Right, he's only been wandering in the jungle for 3 days, not 3 years.:o

JYoung

04-11-2009, 03:59 PM

A couple things...I'm not sure I get why Ben letting Alex be killed is such a big deal compared to some other things he's done. Is this the only time he did something that wasn't what the island wanted him to do? (killing Locke, blowing up the freighter, shooting Caesar and all of Widmore's men) Plus, what were the chances that Keamy would let her live if he surendered?

Because Ben didn't give a rat's ass about those other people but he clearly loves Alex as his own child (in his twisted way).
Alex is just about the only emotional level you can use on Ben.

philw1776

04-11-2009, 04:33 PM

I wait until they show something in the series that makes that statement take on a different meaning.

I'm sure there will be a moment when we'll look back at that and say, "Oh, so THAT'S what they meant by that!"

Truly, you're a Man of Faith :) EDIT: A smeek, I was rushed & distracted and behind in my reading

I hope you're right. And I do cut them Season One slack as they had no idea if the show would have a 2nd season. An opportunity for revision and improvement. LOST rarely if ever disappoints.

edrego

04-11-2009, 06:02 PM

That's a perfectly valid personal belief for you to have, but I hope you don't expect writers to never write time travel stories just because you can't handle them!

Its not that I can't handle or dont like time travel stories, its just that the genre is not original and one of the big things about the show a lot of people liked is that is was so different from anything else on TV. Once they started the time travel sequences, it started to get suspect. I will give them a plus on the way they introduced it with Desmond and it seemed like the time travel was more on a mental level where he was visiting past experiences he already had and having a different perspective on it. That was somewhat a different spin on the time travel storyline. However, once they started to introduce people going back in time and interacting with events they were never part of ("changing the past"), then it started to get cheap to me.

To me, its like another movie that decides to talk about vampires. Like how many times are we going to get the story retold and what makes this vampire movie different from the 200 ones I've seen before. What makes this Lost time travel story different from any of the ones we have seen before? They already started the cheating with the memory thing wit Ben.(I'm sorry, i just wanted to throw up when they started down that path with the memory thing. Its cheap, plan and simple and I believe they could have avoided it if they had put some more thought into it.)

Don't get me wrong, I love the show and can't wait to view it each week, however, I will not hold the writers/creators on a pedistal like they are some sort of godhead that can't make any mistakes. I believe when its all said in done that the time travel plot will be the weak point in the show.

04-11-2009, 06:33 PM

It's a silly argument, anyway. I'm enjoying the story. Whether they knew it from the beginning, or made it up later, it doesn't really matter to me.

Pretty much my sentiments exactly. Although I don't know if the details were planned from before episode one or some point near the middle or end of season 1 makes little difference to me as I enjoy the heck out of this show. Either way, it's clear to me that they were planting things early on that are paying off bigtime right now, and I expect the payoffs will only get greater as we head down the home stretch.

Turtleboy

04-11-2009, 07:36 PM

The whole "you had a child off the island" was for the viewer anyway. It cleared up questions about Widemore, the timeline, and Penny. If Widemore left after Dharmaville, then Penny would have had to been born on the island. And how did he get so rich? So they let us know that he's been going back and forth, so that clears things up.

tewcewl

04-11-2009, 09:34 PM

They already started the cheating with the memory thing wit Ben.(I'm sorry, i just wanted to throw up when they started down that path with the memory thing. Its cheap, plan and simple and I believe they could have avoided it if they had put some more thought into it.)
Ah, but we don't know what's going on with that. All we know is that Ben doesn't remember being shot by Sayid, which is normal in trauma situations, but remembers Dharma and his dad. We don't know if Ben has retained the memories of Sayid, Sawyer, Jack, Kate, and Juliet. We don't know how the Temple changes him when Alpert takes him there. That's a crucial scene that we're missing right now.

With a normal show, I'd agree with you, but with Lost, there are gaps galore and they explain those gaps the closer they get to putting the puzzle pieces together. So until we have ALL the pieces together, we don't know where they wrote something cheaply or mistakenly.

latrobe7

04-11-2009, 10:07 PM

Except the original plan for the series was five seasons, and that's how long it's going to be (with the final two seasons' worth of episodes divided among three seasons). So there was never any padding needed to keep the story going.

Which is not to say they haven't added anything along the way. Only that the show isn't lasting an episode longer than they planned it to when they started.

I don't believe they had five seasons worth of stuff planned out, nor do I think the story has played out exactly as they originally planned it.

But, yeah, it will run for five seasons worth of episodes.

MirclMax

04-11-2009, 10:12 PM

Now, if that doesn't pretty much guarantee some kind of time travel, then I don't know what else it could be. So I would say that, back in S1, many people here were already expecting some kind of time-travel plotline. And, of course, if we end up being correct about "Adam and Eve" being someone we already know, then the producers had already planned it this way.

Unless of course they changed their minds mid-stream and through in the Time-Travel stuff and decided to rewrite who Adam and Eve are/were given the new possibilities that this now offers to them.

In other words, Adam/Eve being people we know doesn't necessarily prove that is what they were planning all along. We know next to nothing regarding those characters other than that they are dead.

That being said, I'm more inclined to believe that they knew where they were going all along (particularly in terms of Adam and Eve and time travel) .. but I allow for alternate possibilities.

Alpinemaps

04-11-2009, 11:55 PM

I can't wait for the book that they'll *have* to write, when this is all over. I'm ready to read about all the behind-the-scenes stuff.

philw1776

04-12-2009, 07:52 AM

Its not that I can't handle or dont like time travel stories, its just that the genre is not original and one of the big things about the show a lot of people liked is that is was so different from anything else on TV. Once they started the time travel sequences, it started to get suspect. I will give them a plus on the way they introduced it with Desmond and it seemed like the time travel was more on a mental level where he was visiting past experiences he already had and having a different perspective on it. That was somewhat a different spin on the time travel storyline. However, once they started to introduce people going back in time and interacting with events they were never part of ("changing the past"), then it started to get cheap to me.
...
I believe when its all said in done that the time travel plot will be the weak point in the show.

Tastes obviously differ. I too love the Vonnegut way they introduced time travel and furthermore I credit them for being consistent within their LOST universe.

In my view, and I believe in the perspective of the writers, the LOSTies were always part of those 1977 events and nothing, so far, has been "changing the past".

Hunter Green

04-12-2009, 10:08 AM

"What's about to come out of this jungle, I can't control."

Enter John Locke.

Hilarious.
Best line of the night, maybe of the season.

Ben said there was a wall around the temple to keep people from seeing it. Wonder what it looks like? It must not be too huge, and surely there would be some vantage point from which it is visible. If it's an actual building...
Maybe it looks like a statue, but only from a distance. When you're up close, you can see it's not really a statue, and that's why it only has four toes.

Rosincrans

04-12-2009, 10:21 AM

teknikel

04-12-2009, 10:42 AM

Ben said there was a wall around the temple to keep people from seeing it. Wonder what it looks like? It must not be too huge, and surely there would be some vantage point from which it is visible. If it's an actual building...

Just MHO, but I think the wall is what we were seeing right there. Remember when Richard went in there was no real visible entryway, he just pushed a section of the wall. Also why Locke said to go "under" meaning under the wall.

tiams

04-12-2009, 02:17 PM

[QUOTE=hanumang;7201200]
And since it never occurred to me, what exactly is the deal with the sub? Did the Others simply take over the logistics of that? I mean, if that was the Dharma folks' thing - understanding that the Island folks were purged - wouldn't Ann Arbor have something to say/do after everything went down?

I have the same question regarding the supply drops for the Swan. Why would a plane still be dropping supplies with Dharma logos after the purge? And were they still being dropped after the hatch imploded?

wprager

04-12-2009, 02:44 PM

Unless of course they changed their minds mid-stream and through in the Time-Travel stuff and decided to rewrite who Adam and Eve are/were given the new possibilities that this now offers to them.

In other words, Adam/Eve being people we know doesn't necessarily prove that is what they were planning all along. We know next to nothing regarding those characters other than that they are dead.

That being said, I'm more inclined to believe that they knew where they were going all along (particularly in terms of Adam and Eve and time travel) .. but I allow for alternate possibilities.

My point was really about the members of this forum (and others). Way back in S1 quite a few people *expected* a resolution to the Adam&Eve question that would necessarily require (is that redundant?), at the very least, a temporal loop, if not straightforward time travel.

DevdogAZ

04-12-2009, 04:41 PM

Well, don't count me as one of those sayiing that they're lying, but I could have sworn that I read an interview towards the end of season 1 where one of TPTB said that it wasn't until part way through the season when they sat down and mapped out in detail the overall story arc. I guess that doesn't preculde that they had an ending in mind from the get go, but not necessarily the general road map that they would take. Or, I could just be remembering wrong. I will say this, however: the french woman's voice from the first episode was not the same actress who played her starting in the middle of the season. If everything were planned out from the start, I'd have thought they would have used the same voice for consistency sake.
OK, that's just silly. Nobody is claiming that "everything" was planned from the beginning. I don't think anyone is even saying that the the full outline of the story arc was planned. I have in my mind that the producers went into their pitch meeting and it went something like this:

"We have this idea for a show where a plane crashes on a island in the South Pacific. There are a bunch of survivors and as they being to get comfortable on the island, they begin to realize that the island is very mysterious. Strange things are happening to the survivors that can't be easily explained.
As time passes, and the survivors begin to unravel some of the mysteries, more mysterious and unexplained phenomena become apparent. We'll learn that these survivors were not on that plane by chance, and we'll explore the background of each of the characters through flashbacks to their life before the crash, and tie in those flashback stories with the theme of the current episode." Then I imagine they laid out the "big reveal" at the end of the show, and it blew the ABC execs away, which is why they agreed to fund the most expensive pilot in TV history.

Did they know all the details? Of course not. Did they know the ending and have a loose idea of how they would get there? I think so.

Delta13

04-12-2009, 05:36 PM

I wonder why no one got the answer to Ilana's question yet. "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

The toes, of course! All 8 of them. :)

Delta13

04-12-2009, 05:47 PM

This is part of my problem with "what happened, happened" with no exceptions. It ultimately means no free will, past present or future.

YMMV (many people believe in predestination/fate anyway).This argument keeps getting brought up, but it's age-old and unresolvable. But, ABC and Lost have beat us over the head with the answer as they see it. All of the promos for this season before it started had one word in common: destiny. It has been harped on throughout the series. From "I was supposed to come back" to "You're not supposed to do this" to "Do not mistake coincidence for fate", it's been clear where the storytelling stands.

I still insist that something weird is going on with the Village because of the Dharma Initiative furnishings that weren't there when the Others lived there before. But clearly I was wrong as to exactly WHAT weird is going on!

And I still believe that the ultimate answer is that the universe is broken, the weirdness is a symptom, it needs to be fixed, and Ben is the man for the job (or at least he thinks he is).You know Rob, saying that something weird is going on in the village and on the island isn't really uhh, going out on a limb there. :D

latrobe7

04-12-2009, 06:16 PM

This argument keeps getting brought up, but it's age-old and unresolvable. But, ABC and Lost have beat us over the head with the answer as they see it. All of the promos for this season before it started had one word in common: destiny. It has been harped on throughout the series. From "I was supposed to come back" to "You're not supposed to do this" to "Do not mistake coincidence for fate", it's been clear where the storytelling stands.
I think that's as clear as mud. If destiny is unchangeable then there is no reason to advise someone of what they're "supposed" to do - there is no "supposed to do" there is just what they do. There is no cause for urgency, no reason for Hawking to try to influence Desmond, no purpose for anyone to do anything, really; beyond Jack's plans of making some sandwiches and maybe playing some Risk.

I think them beating us over the head is a setup.

But more than that, I just hope they turn-the-page on the time-travel stuff soon, I am over it.

Sromkie

04-12-2009, 06:39 PM

I think that's as clear as mud. If destiny is unchangeable then there is no reason to advise someone of what they're "supposed" to do - there is no "supposed to do" there is just what they do. There is no cause for urgency, no reason for Hawking to try to influence Desmond, no purpose for anyone to do anything, really...

Except there is a reason. The reason is because it's their fate to "advise someone of what they're 'supposed' to do"; it's their fate to feel like it's urgent; it's Hawking's fate to try to influence Desmond. It may not change anything, but it has to happen that way because it always has. Jack showed us that even a lack of urgency (when he refused to help Ben—saying that if he couldn't change anything, then he didn't need to act) showed us that it's all just what has and will always happen.

philw1776

04-12-2009, 06:46 PM

And here we are geting comfortable with the LOST universe's aspect of time travel, beginning to figure things out, geting complacent. My bet is that late this season the writers will use some happening, q.v. the Purge or the Incident, to upset the apple cart, overthrowing what we think was going on and have us in a flurry until next season.

latrobe7

04-12-2009, 07:02 PM

Except there is a reason. The reason is because it's their fate to "advise someone of what they're 'supposed' to do"; it's their fate to feel like it's urgent; it's Hawking's fate to try to influence Desmond. It may not change anything, but it has to happen that way because it always has. Jack showed us that even a lack of urgency (when he refused to help Ben—saying that if he couldn't change anything, then he didn't need to act) showed us that it's all just what has and will always happen.

Yes, I get that - everyone does what they do; everything that happened, happened; it is what it is; etc. - but that does not lead to a satisfying resolution to the story, for me anyway. The motivation for certain characters to behave in a certain way doesn't make any sense. The reason for anyone to do anything distills down to "just because". Not very compelling, IMO.

Rob Helmerichs

04-12-2009, 07:49 PM

Magister

04-12-2009, 08:26 PM

[QUOTE=hanumang;7201200]I have the same question regarding the supply drops for the Swan. Why would a plane still be dropping supplies with Dharma logos after the purge? And were they still being dropped after the hatch imploded?

At the time, the Swan was still under Dharma control.

Philosofy

04-12-2009, 08:44 PM

My prediction is that the processing center was just abandoned for three years, and no mention of it will ever occur in the series again. And Rob will still be holding out. :)

Peter000

04-12-2009, 09:57 PM

Yes, I get that - everyone does what they do; everything that happened, happened; it is what it is; etc. - but that does not lead to a satisfying resolution to the story, for me anyway. The motivation for certain characters to behave in a certain way doesn't make any sense. The reason for anyone to do anything distills down to "just because". Not very compelling, IMO.And yet here you are, still watching and discussing the show. Not compelling my ass.

The resolution of the story hasn't even been revealed yet! The flip side of "What happened, happened" is "What will happen, hasn't happened yet." Lots of things can happen that haven't been ordained.

And we don't yet know all of "what happened." Not by a long shot. Some of what's to come may change the total perception of what we've seen.

latrobe7

04-12-2009, 10:11 PM

And yet here you are, still watching and discussing the show. Not compelling my ass. It's like the old joke; "How do you keep an idiot in suspense?"

If it turns out we've all been waiting for "just because"; I will have been an idiot again - even after swearing "Never again!" after the X-Files fizzled.

And we don't yet know all of "what happened." Not by a long shot. Some of what's to come may change the total perception of what we've seen.
I'm counting on it.

teknikel

04-12-2009, 11:28 PM

I wonder why no one got the answer to Ilana's question yet. "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

The toes, of course! All 8 of them. :)

Depends on the source of light. And if the sun is that source, it depends on what time of day, the season and so forth.

gchance

04-12-2009, 11:38 PM

Are we allowed to talk about The Stand without upsetting the spoiler people? There is a nuclear bomb buried on the island. Which of the characters is Trashcan Man?

John Locke of course. "My life for you!"

While he didn't specify the character involved, Damon Lindelof addressed this specifically in a recent podcast. Something like, "You know we're big fans of The Stand, I mean, look at Jughead. Trashcan Man, duh."

Greg

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 05:54 AM

If it turns out we've all been waiting for "just because"; I will have been an idiot again - even after swearing "Never again!" after the X-Files fizzled.
But if it's not clear by now that this is the anti-X-Files (X-Files: Over time, everything becomes more and more confusing; Lost: Over time, everything makes more and more sense), then you will probably never be happy. With anything. :D

latrobe7

04-13-2009, 08:59 AM

But if it's not clear by now that this is the anti-X-Files (X-Files: Over time, everything becomes more and more confusing; Lost: Over time, everything makes more and more sense), then you will probably never be happy. With anything. :D

Gee; OK, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Delta13

04-13-2009, 09:07 AM

Delta13

04-13-2009, 09:08 AM

Depends on the source of light. And if the sun is that source, it depends on what time of day, the season and so forth.But wouldn't that be true of any answer to the question? :)

Delta13

04-13-2009, 09:16 AM

Yes, I get that - everyone does what they do; everything that happened, happened; it is what it is; etc. - but that does not lead to a satisfying resolution to the story, for me anyway. The motivation for certain characters to behave in a certain way doesn't make any sense. The reason for anyone to do anything distills down to "just because". Not very compelling, IMO.As was pointed out earlier in this thread, your inability to handle time travel stories does not change how compelling the story can be to others. I'm sorry that you are hung up on what may actually be a fact of life - destiny and free will. Without seeing how deftly they have tried to mix both into the story. I find it very interesting, both from a storytelling and technical point of view, but I know everyone won't.

tiams

04-13-2009, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE=tiams;7204412]

At the time, the Swan was still under Dharma control.

No, after the purge in the early 90's, Dharma was no longer in control. So why would they still be dropping supplies? I'm referring to the food drops made in 2004 while the Losties were inhabiting the Swan, and the ones made for Desmond. So again I ask, why were supplies with Dharma logos being airdropped post-purge?

aindik

04-13-2009, 09:34 AM

No, after the purge in the early 90's, Dharma was no longer in control. So why would they still be dropping supplies? I'm referring to the food drops made in 2004 while the Losties were inhabiting the Swan, and the ones made for Desmond. So again I ask, why were supplies with Dharma logos being airdropped post-purge?

The Swan survived the Purge as an intact operational Dharma station, with Desmond and his predecessors (including Radzinsky) pushing the button every 108 minutes. This was either because the Others let it exist (perhaps because they knew how important pushing the button was) or because they didn't know about it.

IIRC, when Ben was taken to the Swan as a prisoner, that was the first time he found out about it. But maybe that was a lie, I don't remember.

04-13-2009, 09:40 AM

OK, that's just silly. Nobody is claiming that "everything" was planned from the beginning. I don't think anyone is even saying that the the full outline of the story arc was planned.

I have to disagree. It seems to me that there are plenty of people in these threads who think the overall outline of the story was planned out from day one, ala Babylon 5.

BitbyBlit

04-13-2009, 10:33 AM

Why does having a fixed universe mean no free will? We all have the choices that we can make. A fixed universe means whether you go into the past or the future all the choices made out of free will (and the consequences thereof) are known ahead of time.

If events are fixed, then what is it that we are deciding? If it is fate that I will murder someone, then can I be blamed for the murder any more than a rock could be blamed for falling off of a cliff and crushing someone? We do not punish the rock because there is nothing that the rock could have done to prevent itself from falling off of the cliff. Similarly, if events are fixed, there is nothing that I can do to prevent myself from doing something. I have no choice but to do what I am destined to do.

BitbyBlit

04-13-2009, 10:36 AM

Kate and Jack, I can see that because they are good looking but bland. But Hurley is an unusual enough person that it's hard to believe you wouldn't at least notice a resemblance later on. And he lived for some time with Sawyer/James and Juliet/Juliet. And how many Jins do you suppose he encountered on the island? So they still have some 'splainin to do as to why it didn't occur to Ben that he knew them before.

Adult strangers look different to children than to other adults. So even if Ben did remember vague interactions with the Losties when he was young, he might not have made the connection to the adults he encountered 30 years later.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if he did remember some of them, particularly Juliet. But it also wouldn't be out of the question for Ben not to have remembered all of them, even ones that might have stood out to someone older.

BitbyBlit

04-13-2009, 10:38 AM

So Ben told Locke that he knew that Locke would come back to life. Ben told Sun that he is shocked that Locke is standing there, and that dead is dead, no matter what.

Which one is closer to the truth of what Ben knew and believed?

I wonder if the truth is somewhere in between. Perhaps Ben wasn't surprised that the island could bring people back to life, but was surprised that the island did so to Locke. Perhaps Ben was hoping that the island would leave Locke dead, and the island knew that, which was why it warned Ben against attempting to return Locke to that state.

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 10:53 AM

If events are fixed, then what is it that we are deciding? If it is fate that I will murder someone, then can I be blamed for the murder any more than a rock could be blamed for falling off of a cliff and crushing someone? We do not punish the rock because there is nothing that the rock could have done to prevent itself from falling off of the cliff. Similarly, if events are fixed, there is nothing that I can do to prevent myself from doing something. I have no choice but to do what I am destined to do.
No, you are destined to do it because that's the choice you made.

In what seems to be the show's philosophy, destiny is the sum total of our choices. Where things get confusing is when we have prior knowledge of the choices we are going to make. What they seem to be getting at is that those choices were/will be in part the result of the prior knowledge, in ways we cannot foresee.

BitbyBlit

04-13-2009, 11:38 AM

When the producers said there wasn't any time travel, did they mean "at this point in the story"? IIRC, in season 1 there was a lot of speculation that the island was prehistoric.

I think that's what was meant. People were speculating that time travel had already taken place, and they were answering that question, not saying that it would never take place. But even then we knew that this was a show about a group of people mysteriously surviving a plane crash, and a paralyzed man suddenly being able to walk, so they were already stretching plausibility. I think Lindelof's point was that nothing on the show so far indicated one way or the other, and whatever they introduced wouldn't be completely out of left field.

Keeping things as grounded as they did for the first few seasons not only kept the strange things that were happening more mysterious for us, but also for the characters. Now, in season 5, both we and the characters (at least some of them) have accepted that time travel is possible in this world. That opens up a whole new set of questions, but also answers, or at least provides hints to, some of the other ones.

Contrast this to what the show would have been like had they introduced time travel in the first season. The focus would have been much more on the science fiction aspects than on the character development and mystery. The basic direction of Lost is one of reality continually slipping away. When the Losties first crashed, the strangest thing was the fact that they survived the crash. That's hardly a blip on the strangeness radar at this point. Lost has slowly peeled away each layer of mystery, revealing to us new realities that don't seem too strange given the previous ones, but that do when you consider how far things have come since the beginning.

BitbyBlit

04-13-2009, 11:46 AM

No, you are destined to do it because that's the choice you made.

But in order for it to be my choice, I should have had the opportunity to do something different. If events are fixed, there was no point in which I could have chosen differently. So I never had any choice but to do what I did.

Magister

04-13-2009, 11:56 AM

The Swan survived the Purge as an intact operational Dharma station, with Desmond and his predecessors (including Radzinsky) pushing the button every 108 minutes. This was either because the Others let it exist (perhaps because they knew how important pushing the button was) or because they didn't know about it.

IIRC, when Ben was taken to the Swan as a prisoner, that was the first time he found out about it. But maybe that was a lie, I don't remember.

Agree with Aindik, the Swan was still intact as a Dharma base. It was NOT controlled by the 'Hostiles'. Remember, they were incouraged to use gas suits to even go outside. As long as the button kept getting pushed, they would drop supplies. And once the button stopped being pushed, they stopped dropping supplies.

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 12:12 PM

But in order for it to be my choice, I should have had the opportunity to do something different. If events are fixed, there was no point in which I could have chosen differently. So I never had any choice but to do what I did.
Sure there was. At the point you were making the decision, you could have made any decision.

And the decision you made is the decision you made. Events are fixed by the fact that what you did is what you did. But it was your choice to do that.

tewcewl

04-13-2009, 12:13 PM

Contrast this to what the show would have been like had they introduced time travel in the first season. The focus would have been much more on the science fiction aspects than on the character development and mystery. The basic direction of Lost is one of reality continually slipping away. When the Losties first crashed, the strangest thing was the fact that they survived the crash. That's hardly a blip on the strangeness radar at this point. Lost has slowly peeled away each layer of mystery, revealing to us new realities that don't seem too strange given the previous ones, but that do when you consider how far things have come since the beginning.
Somehow Rolling Stone knew what this forum was talking about because they just published a story about LOST that touches on what this forum has been talking about lately. :D

It discusses Cuse and Lindelof's ideas of freewill vs. destiny, whether or not the story was planned from the beginning, and how they purposefully buried the overt sci-fi aspects in the beginning, and what the story is ultimately about.

Check it out here:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/27380810/unraveling_the_mysteries_of_lost/print

tewcewl

04-13-2009, 12:14 PM

Sure there was. At the point you were making the decision, you could have made any decision.

And the decision you made is the decision you made. Events are fixed by the fact that what you did is what you did. But it was your choice to do that.
+1

I think this is the point that confuses people. Free will comes out of the choices we're all capable of making at any point in time, but fixed events (destiny) comes from where and when the choice was ultimately made.

TAsunder

04-13-2009, 12:53 PM

+1

I think this is the point that confuses people. Free will comes out of the choices we're all capable of making at any point in time, but fixed events (destiny) comes from where and when the choice was ultimately made.

So where do events where someone made a choice but was physically incapable of following through come in - e.g. when Michael tried to kill himself?

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 02:18 PM

So where do events where someone made a choice but was physically incapable of following through come in - e.g. when Michael tried to kill himself?
He didn't fail because he was destined to go to the island. He failed because things went wrong; as a result, he ended up going to the island. And Mr. Friendly apparently knew that this was going to happen, so from his perspective Michael was destined to fail (because he seemed to already know that Michael had failed and gone to the island). (Unanswered Question #394: How did he know?)

Free will isn't a matter of deciding something is going to go your way. Otherwise, I would have won the lottery. You can choose to try something (win the lottery, kill yourself) and fail; that doesn't take anything away from your free choice.

I think what's confusing some people is the (false, I believe) notion that some mystical force is making all this happen. I think it's all just the sum total result of all the choices that people in the show make.

philw1776

04-13-2009, 02:39 PM

He didn't fail because he was destined to go to the island. He failed because things went wrong; as a result, he ended up going to the island...

Free will isn't a matter of deciding something is going to go your way. Otherwise, I would have won the lottery. You can choose to try something (win the lottery, kill yourself) and fail; that doesn't take anything away from your free choice.

I think what's confusing some people is the (false, I believe) notion that some mystical force is making all this happen. I think it's all just the sum total result of all the choices that people in the show make.

Precisely. The LOST writers have shown us both from the activist viewpoint (Sayid's free will decision to shoot young Ben) and from the passive inaction point (Jack's free will decision to let young Ben die) that what happened, happened. Just not the way that the participants exercising their own free will expected. Robert Burns, "The best laid plans of mice and men often go wrong." You may intend something but it doesn't happen that way sometimes or much of the time.

Confusion lies in that our language does not incorporate the myriad correctly descriptive tenses required to describe (most likely fictitious) time travel.

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 02:45 PM

Confusion lies in that our language does not incorporate the myriad correctly descriptive tenses required to describe (most likely fictitious) time travel.
And more basically, in that our minds do not naturally deal with events occurring out of a natural order. Time travel is counter-intuitive. Thinking about it takes practice (reading a lot of science fiction might help), and it also probably takes a certain weirdness in the thought process (I've known perfectly intelligent, educated people who just can't wrap their minds around the stranger consequences of time travel).

TAsunder

04-13-2009, 03:22 PM

He didn't fail because he was destined to go to the island. He failed because things went wrong; as a result, he ended up going to the island. And Mr. Friendly apparently knew that this was going to happen, so from his perspective Michael was destined to fail (because he seemed to already know that Michael had failed and gone to the island). (Unanswered Question #394: How did he know?)

Free will isn't a matter of deciding something is going to go your way. Otherwise, I would have won the lottery. You can choose to try something (win the lottery, kill yourself) and fail; that doesn't take anything away from your free choice.

So it was just a completely freak occurrence that the gun didn't fire repeatedly immediately after his previous suicide attempt? Sorry, not buying it... that smells like cheap writing if that is their implication.

brermike

04-13-2009, 03:39 PM

So it was just a completely freak occurrence that the gun didn't fire repeatedly immediately after his previous suicide attempt? Sorry, not buying it... that smells like cheap writing if that is their implication.

So it is unrealistic for a gun to jam? :)

I think of it like this example. I have no knowledge of my future. I make choices that ultimately decide my fate. I feel like committing suicide by jumping off a bridge. Then beforehand, suddenly Mr Friendly shows up and say the Island won't let me die. I jump anyway, but instead of dying, I break my leg. In reality, Mr Friendly had come from the future and knew I didn't die, but wanted me to think the Island intervened. I had free will to make whatever choice I wanted, but somebody already knew the choices I had made.

Now, I have no idea if this is ultimately what is happening with the show, but this is my interpretation of free-will vs destiny vs whatever happened, happened, etc.

TAsunder

04-13-2009, 04:07 PM

So it is unrealistic for a gun to jam? :)

I think of it like this example. I have no knowledge of my future. I make choices that ultimately decide my fate. I feel like committing suicide by jumping off a bridge. Then beforehand, suddenly Mr Friendly shows up and say the Island won't let me die. I jump anyway, but instead of dying, I break my leg. In reality, Mr Friendly had come from the future and knew I didn't die, but wanted me to think the Island intervened. I had free will to make whatever choice I wanted, but somebody already knew the choices I had made.

Now, I have no idea if this is ultimately what is happening with the show, but this is my interpretation of free-will vs destiny vs whatever happened, happened, etc.

It's irrelevant whether it is "realistic" or not in the context of the real world. I'm talking about the writing. I don't buy that the Lost writers want us to believe or even remotely implied that Michael was simply unlucky in his SEVERAL suicide attempts, or that the losties were lucky when keamy's gun jammed. Such things would be completely unnecessary if the ultimate "point" was that someone already knew they wouldn't die, and ultimately that's very, very weak writing.

jkeegan

04-13-2009, 04:59 PM

It's irrelevant whether it is "realistic" or not in the context of the real world. I'm talking about the writing. I don't buy that the Lost writers want us to believe or even remotely implied that Michael was simply unlucky in his SEVERAL suicide attempts, or that the losties were lucky when keamy's gun jammed. Such things would be completely unnecessary if the ultimate "point" was that someone already knew they wouldn't die, and ultimately that's very, very weak writing.But you're making the assumption that Michael didn't die because of time travel and fate.

To me, THAT feels more like the island was intervening somehow, trying to change something. Christian shows up at the last second and tells Michael "You can go now", before he finally dies.

These overlapping things are what makes a puzzle like this tough to crack, which is what the writers need at this point (it'd suck for them and us if the fanbase figured out the whole ending now.. WE'D hate that). So there are multiple things going on, which overlap and distract us now, but which we'll understand fully later.

As for the whole time thing, ++ to Rob's comments.. Your choice is in front of you, right then, at the moment of your choice. Now if you deliberately used the Orchid station to jump forward 5 years, look yourself up to see if you're still alive, then someone from your time pulled you back, you'd (unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view) KNOW the consequences of choices you haven't made yet (not that you know what any of those choices are yet). You saw yourself with one arm, yet alive. So now you know you can't die during the next five years, but presumably that's because you're the kind of person who wouldn't deliberately try jumping off of cliffs upon learning of his future.. (otherwise, maybe you'd have seen your own grave in the future instead, and not known how you die.. you go back, get frustrated that you're going to die, then kill yourself out of depression). The future means it's THE FUTURE, AFTER your choices between now and then have been made.. So looking into the future kind of robs you of some of the excitement of that freewill, but you still choose... you just don't get to choose based on what you've observed from the future (or, if you do act based on what you saw from the future, you've always done that and that's why you saw what you saw).

Of course it'd be great writing if a scientist like Faraday someday, in the Orchid station, made a machine that listened for the number of beeps in a 10 second period then printed out that number plus one on a piece of paper, ran the machine in a silent room, took the paper (with a one on it) and fed it into a beeping machine that beeped that number of times (after a 5 second delay), then shifted that machine back in time to the initial 10 second period.

Even there, though, at least according to the Orchid Orientation video outtakes, they've shown us the right thing (at least partially). You'd try doing what I said about the silent room, but the beeping machine would arrive right then and beep some number of times, and print out a larger number.. (probably it'd beep for the amount of times that it could beep in a 10 second period plus one). You'd then take the paper, feed it into the machine, and send it back to see what happens when you do it one more time.. (OR, in an alternate story, the entire experiment never worked - it just beeped once and you decided not to send it back, because the (only) version of you that would have wanted to try not sending it back after the 10-beep run wouldn't have sent it back and it never was sent back. Whatever - the equilibrium needs to be reached before we talk about it - there's no feedback - and apparently whatever could cause such feedback somehow isn't physically possible (or someone tries my experiment and it causes an Incident). :)

jkeegan

04-13-2009, 05:02 PM

..and yes, I left you in a dangling parenthetical thingy there, and no, I didn't use the bit about seeing yourself with one arm. :) )

TAsunder

04-13-2009, 05:11 PM

But you're making the assumption that Michael didn't die because of time travel and fate.

Yes, because without that assumption the writing of those episodes is exposed as weak and worthy of a 5th grade short story at best. Having characters tell us one thing, showing us something consistent with that, and then throwing in complete contrivances like two different guns jamming at just the right time is complete rubbish. I don't believe the Lost writers intended that. Rob and others apparently do.

jkeegan

04-13-2009, 05:16 PM

Yes, because without that assumption the writing of those episodes is exposed as weak and worthy of a 5th grade short story at best. Having characters tell us one thing, showing us something consistent with that, and then throwing in complete contrivances like two different guns jamming at just the right time is complete rubbish. I don't believe the Lost writers intended that. Rob and others apparently do.Back when that episode aired there were questions about whose gun Michael ended up with - whether Mr. Friendly had switched guns with him during the shuffle. Have some faith in the writers.. They've certainly shown they're not "5th-grade-short-story" caliber writers so far. If you're not enjoying the ride so far, I can't imagine you enjoying it more when you find out some of these answers. Part of the fun is not knowing and being excited at the mystery of not knowing! (Yes, that gets killed if you truly believe they had no f%cking idea where they were going like Battlestar Galactica guy there, but they've shown us enough things that seemed pointless before and have paid off now that you should be engaged by now!)

TAsunder

04-13-2009, 05:20 PM

Back when that episode aired there were questions about whose gun Michael ended up with - whether Mr. Friendly had switched guns with him during the shuffle. Have some faith in the writers.. They've certainly shown they're not "5th-grade-short-story" caliber writers so far. If you're not enjoying the ride so far, I can't imagine you enjoying it more when you find out some of these answers. Part of the fun is not knowing and being excited at the mystery of not knowing! (Yes, that gets killed if you truly believe they had no f%cking idea where they were going like Battlestar Galactica guy there, but they've shown us enough things that seemed pointless before and have paid off now that you should be engaged by now!)

What about Keamy's gun then? Or the fact that Michael tried to kill himself before he met Friendly both with the gun and with his own car? And if Friendly knew he wouldn't die, why would he bother switching the guns?

Faith only gets you so far. If Rob and others are right and it's just blind luck, and they actually planned it that way in "Meet Kevin Johnson" then the faith is unjustified, because the episode was meaningless.

Rob Helmerichs

04-13-2009, 05:37 PM

Faith only gets you so far. If Rob and others are right and it's just blind luck, and they actually planned it that way in "Meet Kevin Johnson" then the faith is unjustified, because the episode was meaningless.
But it's not blind luck. Mr. Friendly knew (presumably) that for whatever reason, Michael would end up on the island. Because from his perspective, it had already happened. It's like seeing who won the lottery, going back in time to when the guy was buying his ticket, and telling him "You've got a winner there!" You know that against almost impossible odds, he's going to win. He doesn't win because you told him he would, or because some mystical force made him win. There's no luck involved at all; it's just what happened.

And I suspect some day there will be an episode showing those events from Mr. Friendly's perspective that will put them into a very different light.