Newbie Q's on TiVo CCI Encryption

[chucky23]

1) I'm not looking to illegally decrypt TiVo files.
2) I've really spent time searching the forums and been unable to find answers.

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Hi,

I'm new to TiVo (set up my TiVo HD yesterday) and I've got a few questions about the CCI encryption attached to certain recordings.

- What is the encryption tied to?

Is it tied to my TiVo's MAC address, to my TiVo account, to my TiVo's MAK, to my cable service provider, or to something else?

I ask because I'm thinking of putting a 1TB hard drive in my TiVo, and I'm curious about how long I should assume I will be able to access the movies I record.

If I can figure out what the encryption is tied to, the rest of my question should pretty much answer themselves, but here they are anyway:

- If I switch from Time-Warner to FIOS in six months, do I lose the ability to play back my previously recorded CCI encrypted shows?

- If I back up my HD, and my TiVo dies a few months later, can I put my backed-up previously recorded CCI encrypted shows on the HD in the new TiVo and have them play back?

Basically, I'm trying to find out if I'm diligent about backups whether previously recorded CCI encrypted shows last for the lifetime of my box, the lifetime of my TiVo account, or what...

- And finally, can I use third-party software to wirelessly back-up highly valued CCI encrypted shows for archival and wirelessly put them back onto the TiVo without having to remove the HD? I know I won't be able to play the recordings while they are off of the TiVo, but my interest lies in the permanence of any highly valued recordings.

Thanks for any guidance for this newbie.

[wmcbrine]

CCI isn't a form of encryption; it's a copy prohibition flag used by the cable companies. Although there are, IIRC, four states, the TiVo handles it very simply: either you can extract the program, or you can't. If you can, you won't have to worry about CCI any further.

Now, the extracted programs are encrypted, but that encryption has nothing to do with CCI. It is tied to the MAK. You can move these programs freely among TiVos on your account, and the provider etc. is irrelevant. Better yet, you can strip the encryption and just have a plain MPEG file.

For the programs you can't extract, it makes no difference whether you use third-party software or TiVo's own; they're blocked at the TiVo end. You can, however, back up the entire drive if you remove it.

[chucky23]

Now, the extracted programs are encrypted, but that encryption has nothing to do with CCI. It is tied to the MAK. You can move these programs freely among TiVos on your account, and the provider etc. is irrelevant. Better yet, you can strip the encryption and just have a plain MPEG file.

Thanks for the response, wmcbrine.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly:

- Encryption is tied to my MAK.
- My MAK is tied to my TiVo account, not my box.

So if I backed up my HD, and then my TiVo died, I could get a new TiVo, restore the backup to the new box, and have encrypted programs play back?

Or in other words, as long as I still have the .tivo files and my TiVo account, I'll always be able to play back the recordings? And this holds true even for CCI flagged recordings such as a movie recorded off of HBO?

For the programs you can't extract, it makes no difference whether you use third-party software or TiVo's own; they're blocked at the TiVo end. You can, however, back up the entire drive if you remove it.

So, if I'm again understanding you correctly, something like a movie recorded off of HBO is impossible to get off the TiVo without removing the HD even with third-party software tools?

(And am I understanding you correctly that I can strip the encryption off of such a recording if I remove the HD? Or is that something we aren't supposed to be discussing?)

[LifeIsABeach]

So if I backed up my HD, and then my TiVo died, I could get a new TiVo, restore the backup to the new box, and have encrypted programs play back?

No, that won't work. If you put the drive in a new TiVo you would need to run Clear and Delete (or whatever it is called) which will delete all recordings off the hard drive. You would want to copy the programs to a PC and then if the hard drive every fails you can copy them back.

[chucky23]

No, that won't work. If you put the drive in a new TiVo you would need to run Clear and Delete (or whatever it is called) which will delete all recordings off the hard drive. You would want to copy the programs to a PC and then if the hard drive every fails you can copy them back.

But to see if I'm understanding you: if I follow the proper procedure for restoring, CCI flagged encrypted recordings from my old box such as a movie recorded off of HBO will play back on my new box since my MAK is tied to my account rather than my box?

[SCSIRAID]

But to see if I'm understanding you: if I follow the proper procedure for restoring, CCI flagged encrypted recordings from my old box such as a movie recorded off of HBO will play back on my new box since my MAK is tied to my account rather than my box?

CCI's and HD Encryption are two completely separate topics.

CCI tells TiVo what he can do with the content.... copy freely, copy never, copy once. It has nothing to do with how the program is stored. Copy never is for PPV stuff... it makes content perishable after a short time. Copy once is used a lot and tells TiVo that he can record it but cannot allow it to be moved off to a computer or another TiVo. Copy Freely says do whatever youwant to to with it.

HD Encryption is always happening reguardless to CCI. It is tied to the individual TiVo (not the MAK... The MAK is used for authentication when you move it to a computer). If you move content (say... move the harddrive or copy the harddrive and put in a different TiVo) the content is present in the Now Playing list but is not playable. I believe the encryption is tied to the TSN of the individual TiVo.

[wmcbrine]

The encryption on the box itself is different than the encryption of .tivo files, which only exist when extracted over the network. If you pull the drive and back it up, you can only restore to the same unit. If you extract over the network, you can share the extracted files with any TiVo on your account.

Edit: SCSIRAID beat me to it.

[chucky23]

It is tied to the individual TiVo ... I believe the encryption is tied to the TSN of the individual TiVo.

Ah-ha!

This is what I was looking for.

And I'd guess that if my current box dies (for non-Hard Drive related reasons), then TiVo won't ship me a replacement with the same TSN no matter how nicely I ask...

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So if I'm up to speed the upshot is:

- CCI flagged recordings will only playback for the life of my current box. When the box goes blooey, so do my CCI flagged recordings, no matter what I do about backup.

- As long as I open up the box and backup the HD every so often, my (non-PPV) CCI flagged recordings will be good for the life of the box, even if I have to replace the HD.

Sounds about right?

(I'm guessing the box has a pretty lengthy median lifespan aside from the hard drive...)

[SCSIRAID]

Ah-ha!

This is what I was looking for.

And I'd guess that if my current box dies (for non-Hard Drive related reasons), then TiVo won't ship me a replacement with the same TSN no matter how nicely I ask...

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So if I'm up to speed the upshot is:

- CCI flagged recordings will only playback for the life of my current box. When the box goes blooey, so do my CCI flagged recordings, no matter what I do about backup.

- As long as I open up the box and backup the HD every so often, my (non-PPV) CCI flagged recordings will be good for the life of the box, even if I have to replace the HD.

Sounds about right?

(I'm guessing the box has a pretty lengthy median lifespan aside from the hard drive...)

Pretty close... All recordings that are from digital cable are CCI flagged. Recordings that are flagged 00 (copy freely) can be moved off to computer and will be fine when moved to another TiVo with a different TSN. CCI 03 (copy never) stuff only lives for 45 minutes so not worth discussion. CCI 02 (copy once) are good for the life of the TiVo (if you are backing up your HD periodically) or the life of the Harddrive. But if the TiVo dies.. the backups are useless.

[bkdtv]

And I'd guess that if my current box dies (for non-Hard Drive related reasons), then TiVo won't ship me a replacement with the same TSN no matter how nicely I ask...The TSN is what TiVo uses to uniquely identify each box. All subscriptions are tied to the TSN, including lifetime. The TSN is stored on a ROM chip inside the TiVo, so drive upgrades and replacements do not effect your subscription.

CCI flagged recordings will only playback for the life of my current box. When the box goes blooey, so do my CCI flagged recordings, no matter what I do about backup.Right.

Note Verizon FiOS does not "copy protect" anything with CCI=0x02.

As long as I open up the box and backup the HD every so often, my (non-PPV) CCI flagged recordings will be good for the life of the box, even if I have to replace the HD.Yes.

The overwhelming majority of all TiVo "failures" are due to failing / dying hard drives, which can be replaced with relative ease.

[chucky23]

Note Verizon FiOS does not "copy protect" anything with CCI=0x02.

Well, I'll know if this is true or not in half an hour. The VZ boys are done with everything but the cable card.

But, really, anything? Stuff like movies recorded off HBO won't have the 0x02 flag? I'll be astonished and very happy if everything really is accessible for download via the normal wireless methods, which is what I think you're saying...

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Off topic, but it's a bit crazy that Verizon was willing to pay me $300 for the privilege of running fiber-optic cable into my house. They essentially bought me my TiVo.

[bkdtv]

But, really, anything? Stuff like movies recorded off HBO won't have the 0x02 flag? I'll be astonished and very happy if everything really is accessible for download via the normal wireless methods, which is what I think you're saying...Correct. At some point in the future, they'll probably use the CCI 0x02 on premium movie channels, but from what I've heard second-hand, doing so now would cause problems for their existing multi-room implementation.

Off topic, but it's a bit crazy that Verizon was willing to pay me $300 for the privilege of running fiber-optic cable into my house. They essentially bought me my TiVo.If you have Verizon over, make sure they add an attenuator and/or leave you one. The output from most Verizon ONTs is too strong for the TiVo (which is much more sensitive than the Motorola box), resulting in pixelization on some channels. Ask them to add or leave a -10dB attenuator before the TiVo. If they are willing, ask them to leave you both a -10dB plus a -6dB attenuator, in case you need it later.

[chucky23]

If you have Verizon over, make sure they add an attenuator and/or leave you one. The output from most Verizon ONTs is too strong for the TiVo (which is much more sensitive than the Motorola box), resulting in pixelization on some channels. Ask them to add or leave a -10dB attenuator before the TiVo. If they are willing, ask them to leave you both a -10dB plus a -6dB attenuator, in case you need it later.

Dang. I read this 30 seconds after they got into the elevator to leave.

I did enough homework to know I should mention the issue to them, and they said an attenuator wasn't necessary. I watched a few minutes of TV with them there, and everything looked OK. But I wish I'd asked them to leave an attenuator.

I'll be vigilant about looking for pixelation over the next few days. Time-Warner's trusty Scientific-Atlanta 8300HD will sit next to the TiVo for a few days while I make sure VZ's setup is working properly.

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The no flag situation is a real bonus I hadn't been counting on. As long as that lasts, that's going to make my setup a lot more useful.

[gweempose]

CCI tells TiVo what he can do with the content....Funny, I've always thought of my TiVo as a "she". :D

[jrm01]

Note Verizon FiOS does not "copy protect" anything with CCI=0x02.



I am not familiar with FiOS, but I find this hard to believe. It is my understanding that HBO, SHO, etc. place the 0x02 flag on their content and providers are not permitted to remove it.

It would not affect the Verizon multi-room capability since they do not copy the material to other devices, they stream it.

[jrm01]

Funny, I've always thought of my TiVo as a "she". :D

Which indicates that you must have had problems with your TiVo, including not responding to commands.:D

[fyodor]

I am not familiar with FiOS, but I find this hard to believe. It is my understanding that HBO, SHO, etc. place the 0x02 flag on their content and providers are not permitted to remove it.

It would not affect the Verizon multi-room capability since they do not copy the material to other devices, they stream it.

Two points

1. Ox02 flagging refers to something that cannot be recorded even once (i.e. cannot be recorded by the Tivo). 0x01 refers to something that can be be recorded once and not transferred.

2. There are many providers that use 0x00 flagging for everything but PPV. It used to be the case that some FIOS regions flagged everything 0x00. I'm not sure if this still is the case. (CCI encoding is also relevant to HTPC PVR solutions, because the firewire outputs on cable boxes are governed by CCI).

[jcaudle]

Cox here in Fairfax didn't CCI flag most of the cable networks prior to HD/SDV. Now both the HD version and the digital versions of TLC, HGTV, USA, FX, etc are CCI protected. Showtime wasn't even CCI flagged at one time although HBO always was. So for convenience I end up having to record some programs twice in order to see them on the other TIVO. At least most of the cable programs have alternate show times if they conflict with regular broadcast. Its damn annoying. Cox often uses these flags even when the networks don't require it. Why should USA care if I transfer a program I record down stairs to my upstairs Tivo? I will only watch it once....once watch I delete both copies. Its silly.

[chucky23]

Wow! bkdtv told the truth. HD movies belong to me, with no schemes standing in my way other than slow wireless transfers.

I'm officially in love with Verizon. I'm on the watch for pixelation issues, but the uncompressed HD picture is so much better than the compressed TW signal I had that I'm not sure I'll even notice...

I had no idea the switchover was going to be this beneficial. Now I just have to hope I didn't make a mistake in buying a reconditioned TiVo box instead of a new one. I already think I should have spent the extra sixty bucks.

CCI encryption? We don't need no stinking CCI encryption!

[bkdtv]

Two points

1. Ox02 flagging refers to something that cannot be recorded even once (i.e. cannot be recorded by the Tivo). 0x01 refers to something that can be be recorded once and not transferred.No.

The CCI=0x02 bit refers to "copy one generation;" this flag is commonly used on premium movie channels like HBO. There are no restrictions on the ability to record these programs to the TiVo.

The CCI=0x01 bit refers to "copy no more." This bit is not used on live programming; it is applied to "copy one generation" programs after they are saved to the DVR. The CableLabs DFAST license agreement specifies that all CCI=0x02 content must be reflagged as CCI=0x01 or "copy no more" after it is saved to the DVR.

The CCI=0x03 bit refers to "copy never." This flag limits recording to a 45 minute buffer. Thankfully, federal law prohibits the use of this flag on television channels; it is only permitted on PPV and VOD.

[chucky23]

Thankfully, federal law prohibits the use of this flag on television channels; it is only permitted on PPV and VOD.

Thanks be to the feds on the whole topic of DVR's.

If it weren't for the feds, none of the cableco's would support cable cards, and TiVo wouldn't even exist at this point.

[fyodor]

Whoops. Sorry.

No.

The CCI=0x02 bit refers to "copy one generation;" this flag is commonly used on premium movie channels like HBO. There are no restrictions on the ability to record these programs to the TiVo.

The CCI=0x01 bit refers to "copy no more." This bit is not used on live programming; it is applied to "copy one generation" programs after they are saved to the DVR. The CableLabs DFAST license agreement specifies that all CCI=0x02 content must be reflagged as CCI=0x01 or "copy no more" after it is saved to the DVR.

The CCI=0x03 bit refers to "copy never." This flag limits recording to a 45 minute buffer. Thankfully, federal law prohibits the use of this flag on television channels; it is only permitted on PPV and VOD.

[MichaelK]

Pretty close... All recordings that are from digital cable are CCI flagged. Recordings that are flagged 00 (copy freely) can be moved off to computer and will be fine when moved to another TiVo with a different TSN. CCI 03 (copy never) stuff only lives for 45 minutes so not worth discussion. CCI 02 (copy once) are good for the life of the TiVo (if you are backing up your HD periodically) or the life of the Harddrive. But if the TiVo dies.. the backups are useless.



Not an expert but i believe there's a minor clarification here- the way I understand it is all digital cable is not CCI flagged- only encrypted digital content. As an example the cable company can send the local channels completely unencrypted without any CCI flag. Again not an expert.

Also just in general there are PILES of CCI flags (well maybe not piles exactly but more then the four that we are all used to right now). It's a multi-bit value expressed in hexadecimal (if I recall correctly- might be dec). The first 2 bits we are all familiar with are the bits that blocks the tivo from moving digital copies. If those are the only bits set you get 0x01, 0x02, 0x03, and 0x04. But if they throw other bits (there's two to enable macrovision- i think bits 3 and 4, another one - bit 5?- i think to cut back resolution- maybe currently illegal but still in the technical spec, and 2 to 4 others reserved if i recall correctly).

So at some point in the future someone might see 05,06, or other values....