S3 HD Expansion Help

[swezey]

I originally posted this in the "sticky" of the Tivo HD upgrade thread then realised that being on page 90 is probably not the best place to hope for a timely response so I'm starting a new thread. I know this has probably been covered sorry.... But I get in the threads and get reading and reading and soon its an hour later and I don't know if I answered my question or not. A-D-D is a terrible thing... :eek: Anyway, here goes....

OK well... I'm back. I've been running my 2 Series 3 since XMAS now and everything is GREAT! Verizon came out and installed the cable cards THE SAME DAY WE CALLED! (I think the tech for our area lives near me). For those of you who don't remember, you all helped me decide which way to go, partly through this poll:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=412306

Anyway, as promised, it's now time to upgrade. While the recording time on the S3 was definitely a step up from the Verizon DVR, between my stuff, the wife's and the kids... well YGTP.

So, the question is, given you have 2 original S3's, would you simply add an external drive and be done with it or would you replace the internal and save the original as a backup? I understand that with the HD, most users simply upgrade the internal since their only external choice is the uber expensive My DVR Expander. However, part of my choice in getting the S3 was to have more (and less expensive) upgrade options (as well as better performance on TTG and MRV). So here are the issues:

1) Add on a 1TB external and be done with it. PROS: Easy. Fast. Fairly inexpensive. Saves all programming and shows. Uses storage from original drive for 1.25 TB total.

CONS: 2 points of failure. No backup drive. How old is the drive in these things anyway? How long do they last? I got both these units used. An extra "box" sitting out for the kids to get in and mess up (they get into EVERYTHING!)

2) Mirror the internal on a new 1TB and put the original away for a backup. PROS: Replace original drive with a newer, prob more reliable drive. Gives me a backup. Least expensive option (no external PS, cables or case needed for new drive). Nothing "extra" for the kids to get into. Fewer points of failure.

CONS: Must open Tivo. Takes longer esp. if copying all existing recordings. End up with only 1TB instead of 1.25TB.

I think I've summarised the P&C of these two options. Did I miss anything major? Anyway, bottom line is... Which way would you go? Why? I think I'm leaning towards adding the 1TB internally and keeping the original as a backup but it seems dumb to waste the 250GB. Or would I be playing with fire by keeping those original drives in service?? And if I do risk it and the drive takes a crap, am I in a world of hurt?? How easy (or hard) is it to get back up and running after a catastrophic crash? I realise I would lose any shows not backed up if that happens. What's the MTBF on the original S3 drives? Anyone know??

Anyway, as usual, thanks to everyone here for their thoughtful advice, suggestions and help! I really appreciate it!!

[Dssturbo1]

I used a Seagate 1.5Tb drive for an internal upgrade on my S3. Fry's has them on sale for $117 total shipped and thats in the retail kit box so you get the 5 year warranty instead of the 3 year oem models. http://www.frys.com/product/5803213?site=frysecampaign

I used WinMFS 9.3 beta to copy over my S3 original drive to the new 1.5Tb, supersized and expanded it and its working fine now. There is a limitation and it will be slightly restricted and only use 1.35Tb of the total 1.5Tb space. But thats plenty and my S3 reports 213 HD hours, 1860 SD hours on the S3. IF you have a Tivo HD the restriction will be lower at 1.26Tb total space available.

Notes........ there is a slight bug in the WinMFS 9.3 beta. it does not expand and use the entire drive space unless you make sure to use MFSAdd command. When you are following the guide and it tells you to say Yes to the popup that ask if you want to expand the drive, it is actually doing MFSSupersize not MFSAdd as it is supposed to do. So thats' why you need to also do the MFSAdd command.

Also if you do use a drive bigger than 1Tb there will be a popup message that ask you to restrict the use to 1.1Tb, answer YES and should go fine for you. (the NO choice is only for those using a hacked Prom that will allow full use of all the space available.)

Some early shipments of the Seagate 1.5Tb drive had firmware issues. So if you do use that drive make sure you have the later builds (2009) with the newer firmware. The first one i got was from bestbuy and the build date code was Jan 25, 2009 with CC1H firmware which is newer and no reported problems.

[swezey]

Turbo,

Nice, thanks! $117.00 for 1.35TB sounds good to me! Just curious, is that drive a DVR designed drive? Is it quiet? Did you adjust the AMM at all (or whatever it's called for the noise)? Also, how did you hook up both drives at the same time to do the copy?? USB to sata cables or some dual dock or something? Just curious...

- Bill

BTW I have the S3 also so same exact setup. What firmware version is in your Seagate??

[bkdtv]

Turbo,

Nice, thanks! $117.00 for 1.35TB sounds good to me! Just curious, is that drive a DVR designed drive? Is it quiet? Did you adjust the AMM at all (or whatever it's called for the noise)? Also, how did you hook up both drives at the same time to do the copy?? USB to sata cables or some dual dock or something? Just curious...It's a desktop drive. You can't adjust the AAM on Seagate drives. The Seagate 1.5TB is not as quiet (silent) as the Western Digital WD10EVVS and WD10EVCS, but it may be quiet enough for your purposes. You're not going to notice it over your TV speakers.

[swezey]

It's a desktop drive. You can't adjust the AAM on Seagate drives. The Seagate 1.5TB is not as quiet (silent) as the Western Digital WD10EVVS and WD10EVCS, but it may be quiet enough for your purposes. You're not going to notice it over your TV speakers.

BKDTV,

So you concur that this is a good way to go...???

[greg_burns]

I would go with the WD10EVCS. Extremely quiet. My S3 reports 157 HD hours, 1367 SD hours.

http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd10evcs-hard-drive-1tb-serial-ata-300-serial/q/loc/101/206827123.html

TiVo uses the WD10EVVS in its 1TB TivoHD XL model. The WD10EVVS is a cheaper
version of the WD10EVCS with 8MB cache instead of 16MB. The WD10EVCS and
WD10EVVS are the drives of choice for the TivoHD and Series3. Both models
can be found online at Buy.com and Provantage.com.


I bought my WD10EVCS from Buy.com. Just checked warranty status at WD out of curiosity. Must only have a 3 year warranty. Mine expires 6/29/2011.

[bkdtv]

BKDTV,

So you concur that this is a good way to go...???I have no experience with the Seagate 1.5TB in a TiVo. I have one in my desktop and it is not close to "silent" when seeking. It certainly is "quiet" compared to some other desktop drives I've had before. But I'm still wary of recommending a Seagate drive for a TiVo until they've been in use by members for a longer period of time. If/when it is added to the sticky, it would probably be a 7 under "noise level."

You can see noise measurements for the Seagate 1.5TB at SilentPCReview (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article927-page4.html). Acoustics on the WD10EVCS and WD10EVVS are comparable to the WD20EADS listed on that page. A DVR seeks 24/7, so that's the relevant field.

[netringer]

BKDTV,

So you concur that this is a good way to go...???

The WD10EACS is known to not work in a Series 3.
http://mfslive.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687

I bought a WD15EACS 1.5TB but it's going back. Nice to see that a 1.5TB can work above, though.

[bkdtv]

The WD10EACS is known to not work in a Series 3.
http://mfslive.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687

I bought a WD15EACS 1.5TB but it's going back. Nice to see that a 1.5TB can work above, though.I don't know of anyone that has tested a WD15EACS in a Series3. You could try it and let us know. :)

There are reports of some WDxxEACS and WDxxEADS drives working in a Series3, without the software reboot issue. But it's difficult to recommend a drive when some revisions work and some don't. Most vendors do not tell you what revision you will get when you order.

[greg_burns]

The WD10EACS is known to not work in a Series 3.
http://mfslive.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687

I bought a WD15EACS 1.5TB but it's going back. Nice to see that a 1.5TB can work above, though.

So you are saying the WD15EACS doesn't work with original S3 either? Haven't been keeping up with this like I should.

Or you just not taking the chance?

[Dssturbo1]

Turbo, Nice, thanks! $117.00 for 1.35TB sounds good to me! Just curious, is that drive a DVR designed drive? Is it quiet? Did you adjust the AMM at all (or whatever it's called for the noise)? Also, how did you hook up both drives at the same time to do the copy?? USB to sata cables or some dual dock or something? Just curious...- Bill BTW I have the S3 also so same exact setup. What firmware version is in your Seagate??

it's quiet enough........even in a quiet room with no sound i have yet to hear the drive seeking and i sit about 8 feet away from it. when it's quiet I can hear the Tivo S3 fan but have yet to hear any drive noise.

i used two USB to sata adapters, not sure what model as they are all pretty generic but sold under several names, i got them from Newegg for ~$25 each. I had a little trouble at first getting WinMFS to recognize them. But finally hot plugged one of them (the original S3 drive) and waited for my computer to recognize it (it reported the model of drive, a WD 250Gb) and said i had new hardware, then hot plugged the second one, the Seagate 1.5Tb and said again i had new hardware and reported a Seagate ST31500 drive. Then opened Winmfs and it would recognize both of them when selected.

The Seagate 1.5Tb had CC1H firmware, the build code date was 09303 which translates to Jan 25, 2009

[netringer]

So you are saying the WD15EACS doesn't work with original S3 either? Haven't been keeping up with this like I should.

Or you just not taking the chance?

Didn't try it. I expect it would work.

I want to keep my recordings. A certain FAQ author wrote that you can replace the internal drive after adding an external using WinMFS, so I added the 1TB external to get more space quick. Now the author of WinMFS begs to differ on copying the internal drive, or both for that matter after doing a "TiVo marriage," so I'm facing divorcing the external and losing all of my content.

I'll wait a while until I can stomach that, at which time 1.5TB drives will be cheaper.

I put a second 1.5TB drive in the PC and promptly filled it transferring non-copy-flag content from the Series 3. It formatted to 1.32GB with NTFS 64K blocks and it now has 400GB free. :D

[swezey]

I would go with the WD10EVCS. Extremely quiet. My S3 reports 157 HD hours, 1367 SD hours.

http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd10evcs-hard-drive-1tb-serial-ata-300-serial/q/loc/101/206827123.html



I bought my WD10EVCS from Buy.com. Just checked warranty status at WD out of curiosity. Must only have a 3 year warranty. Mine expires 6/29/2011.

Greg,

Gee for the extra $9 I think I'd like to have the extra 350GB. Unless that Seagate is just too risky or unproven... I don't think the sound would bother me tucked into the TIVO case and set under the TV... Plus the 5 year warranty kind of protects me some bit better doesn't it...???

P.S. Love your avatar... I used to play in a Pink Floyd cover band...

[swezey]

The WD10EACS is known to not work in a Series 3.
http://mfslive.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687

I bought a WD15EACS 1.5TB but it's going back. Nice to see that a 1.5TB can work above, though.

Is there a KNOWN WD 1.5TB drive that works well since they seem to be favored from a noise / track record standpoint? Seems the price difference in the 1TB and 1.5TB is justifiable for the extra space in the S3...

[greg_burns]

Greg,

Gee for the extra $9 I think I'd like to have the extra 350GB. Unless that Seagate is just too risky or unproven... I don't think the sound would bother me tucked into the TIVO case and set under the TV... Plus the 5 year warranty kind of protects me some bit better doesn't it...???

Can't argue with that.

[swezey]

OK - thanks to everyone for their input! I've decided to go with the WD10EVCS mounted internally to my S3's... The reasons are a few:

1) Didn't want an external hanging about to get knocked around by the kids, cable unplugged by the cat etc.

2) My S3's are used. Don't know how old the original drives are (could look at first service date I suppose). They obviously can't last forever. Removing them removes the highest likely point of TiVO failure.

3) Nearly 100% of the reviews on the WD10EVCS were good or better.

4) The Seagate drives still seem to be having intermittent issues. Sure I could save a few bucks but not anywhere near enough if I have a drive go up in flames on me after a few weeks / months and have to RMA it.

5) Got a great deal on 2 WD10ECVS from Best Buy. Look here:
http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd10evcs-hard-drive-1tb-serial-ata-300-serial/q/loc/101/206827123.html

$107.98 ea delivered!

6) I now have a backup of my original system tucked away in a safe place.

There is ONE con to this choice....

1) I'm losing 350GB of space that I could have gotten with the 1.5TB Seagate drive. Since I'm going from 250GB to 1TB on 2 S3's... I figure 2TB will be plenty for the time being and I can always offload to the PC if I need more space and want to keep stuff. The risk of the Seagate, based on what I was reading, wasn't worth the extra 350GB. As someone else mentioned in a thread (somewhere), next HD upgrade will probably be to SSD so these are the last spinning drives I'll ever buy for the TiVo... I figure a 5 year life should be about right.

Thanks again to everyone who participated. Maybe this thread can help someone else in the same boat. That's always my hope with these....

[netringer]

...

5) Got a great deal on 2 WD10ECVS from Best Buy. Look here:
http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd10evcs-hard-drive-1tb-serial-ata-300-serial/q/loc/101/206827123.html
...

:D Buy.com is not Best Buy.

B. F. Goodrich doesn't have a blimp.

Marshalls has no affiliation with Marshall Fields.

[gweempose]

I've decided to go with the WD10EVCS ...FWIW, I think you made a smart choice. That drive will be rock solid.

[swezey]

:D Buy.com is not Best Buy.

B. F. Goodrich doesn't have a blimp.

Marshalls has no affiliation with Marshall Fields.

My brain said "buy.com" and my fingers typed Best Buy... :confused: Must be old age....

[swezey]

FWIW, I think you made a smart choice. That drive will be rock solid.

Gweem,

Thanks! I did think about all the different issues. To make a decision based on dollars per GB is just WAY to simplistic. Sure I'd like to have more space but really I gotta think a TB expanded out with SUPERSIZE will be just fine. And actually I'm thinking about adding a third S3 so that would be 3TB. One would record my shows, one the wife's, one the kids, etc. so the space would get used across all three units. I actually ended up getting $5.00 off each one so I got them for $102.00 each - I mean that's insane. But between you and me I expect that SSD's are soon going to be cheaper per GB than traditional HD's (2, 3 maybe 4 years). SSD's are much simpler devices and as soon as the production yields go up and densities continue to climb you are going to see an EXPLOSION in SSD capacity vs. price. That's when I'll spring for the 1.5TB and get 1.35TB usable and I never buy another drive for my Tivos again... :-)