Copy protection flag just set for premium stations?

[danschn]

I've been using my TiVo Series 3 with cable card for several years as a Cablevision customer in Westchester. I've regularly copied programs using TiVo's home networking features to my PC's external hard drive, to effectively use a large external hard drive for longer term storage. (Yes, I also have the 500GB external drive on the TiVo directly. I consider that necessary for normal storage given almost everything I use the TiVo for is in HD.)

In particular I've been using this method for movies and serial dramas that I get off of HBO-HD, SHO-HD and STARZ-HD to create my own "on-demand" service. Around the second week of February, suddenly everything from these premium stations can't be copied. For instance, the first two episodes of Flight of the Concords are on the external hard drive, but the ones since can't be moved.

Is this enforcement from the stations themselves? This seems unlikely as they have different owners.

Did Cablevision just decide to implement the protection differently?

I thought even if copy protection was set (say by Time Warner for HBO) I was allowed one legitimate copy.

Is TiVo interpreting the copy protection flag more stringently?

Thanks for any help.

Dan

(Cross posted at AVS forum - NY Cablevision)

[djwilso]

The copy flags come from the cable company.

Here in Phoenix, every HD channel except the local broadcast networks have the flag set to not allow transferring from the TiVo to the computer.

It has been this way ever since I had my Series 3 in 2006, so it sounds like your cable company just figured out their error and "fixed the glitch".

So, hopefully you enjoyed it while it lasted.

[mikeyts]

The relevant FCC regs are Code of Federal Regulations, Title 47 §76.1904 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a5fdfa5ff25dfd8ee29a9818115ff1d8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.23.3.4&idno=47), "Encoding rules for defined business models":(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product.

(b) Except for a specific determination made by the Commission pursuant to a petition with respect to a defined business model other than unencrypted broadcast television, or an undefined business model subject to the procedures set forth in §76.1906:

(1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows:

(i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section; and

(ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and

(2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte).That states: (paragraph (a)) that they can't put copy protection on rebroadcast local television; ((b)(1)(i)) that they can only use "Copy Never" protection on PPV and VOD; and ((b)(1)(ii)) that they can put "Copy One Generation" protection on everything else. So your provider does have a right to put copy protection on the stuff that you've been archiving.

The "one legitimate copy" that you're allowed is the one on TiVo's HDD. The agreement for use of the copy protection mechanisms involved (DFAST) would allow TiVo to implement a "move" operation wherein a new copy would be made on a second device using an approved transfer mechanism; the copy would have to be encrypted and have the same "Copy One Generation" protection and the original copy on TiVo would have to be rendered unusable. TiVo does not implement such an operation.

Someone posted here that they complained to Comcast about their overuse of copy protection, to which Comcast supposedly responded by creating a national policy prohibiting the use of copy protection except as specified by the programming provider. Some providers explicitly want these protections (HBO/Cinemax is a case in point--see this (http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/faq/cgmsfaq.shtml)).

Nothing stops you from complaining--FCC regs don't force them to apply copy protections. Find out who your local franchising agency is and appeal to them, sending a copy of that appeal to management of your cable system. It's worth a try.

[netringer]

Yes.

This is a reason to cancel your subscription to premium channels and let it be known why.

What I laugh about is having the no-copy flag set on TiVoCasts you can download for free unencumbered, and possibly in higher quality, all day long directly to the PC as podcasts. I guess TiVo made some sort of one viewer, one download deal.

[CuriousMark]

What I laugh about is having the no-copy flag set on TiVoCasts you can download for free unencumbered, and possibly in higher quality, all day long directly to the PC as podcasts. I guess TiVo made some sort of one viewer, one download deal.

I believe TiVoCasts are done this way because the online content providers want people to download directly from them via their website and not from second generation copies pulled off of a TiVoCast. The idea being they can at least count the direct downloads which probably is needed to justify their website advertising rates.

[sinanju]

Someone posted here that they complained to Comcast about their overuse of copy protection, to which Comcast supposedly responded by creating a national policy prohibiting the use of copy protection except as specified by the programming provider. Some providers explicitly want these protections (HBO/Cinemax is a case in point--see this (http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/faq/cgmsfaq.shtml)).


That would be me and it continues to hold true in my neighborhood two years later. Seeing that it would be a problem shortly after I got my S3, I managed to get them to fix it before TiVo To Go became available. Though I was told it was to be made system-wide policy, follow-through is certainly lacking. In the meantime, I've switched to FiOS, which has none of this silliness


Nothing stops you from complaining--FCC regs don't force them to apply copy protections. Find out who your local franchising agency is and appeal to them, sending a copy of that appeal to management of your cable system. It's worth a try.

Starting with the local franchise authority worked for me. I used Cable in the Classroom as an example of where Comcast was applying protection where it was specifically not wanted by the provider. I don't know if anyone has ever tried engaging the CiC representatives at the cable companies themselves -- I never had to go that far -- but full contact info is provided at the CiC web site.

http://www.ciconline.org/cablecompanies

Click on the name of your provider for the phone, fax, and email info for that provider's CiC rep. Ask them how a teacher, having caught something on their TiVo that they'd like to bring to class, and are specifically licensed to bring to class, can do so if they can't transfer the recording to a PC to burn it to DVD. Even HBO, the copy-protection poster child, provides CiC programming.

[danschn]

So if Cablevision is now setting the copy protection flag on HBO-HD, SHO-HD and STARZ-HD, are they now doing the right thing according to the desires of the respective stations owners?

I'll call Cablevision, and maybe my local franchising authority, and complain about this change, but how can I expect to get anywhere if the change is justified?

[mikeyts]

So if Cablevision is now setting the copy protection flag on HBO-HD, SHO-HD and STARZ-HD, are they now doing the right thing according to the desires of the respective stations owners?

I'll call Cablevision, and maybe my local franchising authority, and complain about this change, but how can I expect to get anywhere if the change is justified?It's not "justified" per se, but it is "legal". Almost certainly some of the content providers, like HBO/Cinemax, do want the protections set on their product, but as sinanju points out, some explicitly do not want it set. (If HBO is carrying some CiC content and CiC tried to insist that they make sure that it can be copied, I have little doubt that they'd dump the CiC content :rolleyes:. It is possible to set these protections on a program-by-program basis, but I'm not aware of anyone actually doing that).

If all you care about is being able to archive the premium channels, you're probably fighting a lost cause. Protesting might be worthwhile if you care about stopping excessive use of the flags--many cable companies protect everything except for rebroadcast of local DTV channels.

[sinanju]

Even in my case, I was told that premium channels would remain protected. Since I didn't have any, I didn't care. One channel in the Comcast Digital Classic lineup remained protected, as the broadcaster is a fan of copy protection -- Encore Movieplex.

[mikeyts]

Even in my case, I was told that premium channels would remain protected. Since I didn't have any, I didn't care. One channel in the Comcast Digital Classic lineup remained protected, as the broadcaster is a fan of copy protection -- Encore Movieplex.Even if you didn't get the premium channels, no doubt Comcast's decision in your case resulted in the "unlocking" of a couple hundred channels or more. Seems worthwhile.

[sinanju]

Even if you didn't get the premium channels, no doubt Comcast's decision in your case resulted in the "unlocking" of a couple hundred channels or more. Seems worthwhile.

Oh, absolutely... It started out as most report: everything locked down but broadcast stations. When they changed the configuration, only one station in the Digital Classic lineup was locked. It was certainly worth my while, since I spend a lot of time flying from Boston to the antipodes... having recordings on my laptop is a must.

[mbruns]

That would be me and it continues to hold true in my neighborhood two years later. Seeing that it would be a problem shortly after I got my S3, I managed to get them to fix it before TiVo To Go became available. Though I was told it was to be made system-wide policy, follow-through is certainly lacking. In the meantime, I've switched to FiOS, which has none of this silliness



Starting with the local franchise authority worked for me. I used Cable in the Classroom as an example of where Comcast was applying protection where it was specifically not wanted by the provider. I don't know if anyone has ever tried engaging the CiC representatives at the cable companies themselves -- I never had to go that far -- but full contact info is provided at the CiC web site.

http://www.ciconline.org/cablecompanies

Click on the name of your provider for the phone, fax, and email info for that provider's CiC rep. Ask them how a teacher, having caught something on their TiVo that they'd like to bring to class, and are specifically licensed to bring to class, can do so if they can't transfer the recording to a PC to burn it to DVD. Even HBO, the copy-protection poster child, provides CiC programming.

Been there, done that with Time Warner. Their answer was "No problem, you are perfectly able to bring your Tivo unit to the classroom to display the program"

[sinanju]

Been there, done that with Time Warner. Their answer was "No problem, you are perfectly able to bring your Tivo unit to the classroom to display the program"

And what was the title of the person at TWC who told you that? The CiC license also permits archiving for a period of time. The flags are preventing making archival copies.