Series 3 locking up and rebooting

[Dougmeister]

It all started this past weekend. There have been at least 5 or 6 incidents since then when, during playback, the unit will freeze up. Can't push any buttons or get any response, then it reboots.

I've had the unit for just over a year, and I added a 500 GB external drive (on the approved list) very shortly after purchase.

I don't even know where to begin diagnosing. Should I call TiVo?

FWIW, I have Comcast HD cable. I cancelled Comcast internet and got Fios a few weeks ago, although I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I was trying to research the issue and should point out that I *am* using a UPS or two, but I don't know the capacities... they are a few years old.

[DougJohnson]

It all started this past weekend. There have been at least 5 or 6 incidents since then when, during playback, the unit will freeze up. Can't push any buttons or get any response, then it reboots.

I've had the unit for just over a year, and I added a 500 GB external drive (on the approved list) very shortly after purchase.

I don't even know where to begin diagnosing. Should I call TiVo?

FWIW, I have Comcast HD cable. I cancelled Comcast internet and got Fios a few weeks ago, although I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I was trying to research the issue and should point out that I *am* using a UPS or two, but I don't know the capacities... they are a few years old.

I'd be betting on the hard drive. I don't have any experience with the external drives, so I can't tell you which one is bad. If you are used to messing around in PCs, you can pop the internal drive, put in your PC, copy it to a new drive with winMFS, and see what happens. -- Doug

[Dougmeister]

Thanks. I might give that a shot.

Also, I experimented a bit. It rebooted during this past week's episode of "Heroes", so after it rebooted, I fast-forwarded, and it got "past" the bad spot, but it skipped like from minute 15 to minute 20 after "sticking" for a few moments. I could then watch the "bad" segment. Does that make any sense?

[Dougmeister]

Also:

1) With winMFS, is it possible that I will be able to keep my shows intact?

Edit: Nevermind on these next two:

2) What size HD comes in the Series 3 by default?
3) Are there specific drives that you buy to upgrade?

Found the sticky

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784

[DougJohnson]

Thanks. I might give that a shot.

Also, I experimented a bit. It rebooted during this past week's episode of "Heroes", so after it rebooted, I fast-forwarded, and it got "past" the bad spot, but it skipped like from minute 15 to minute 20 after "sticking" for a few moments. I could then watch the "bad" segment. Does that make any sense?

Sounds like bad sectors on the hard drive.

Also:

1) With winMFS, is it possible that I will be able to keep my shows intact?
2) What size HD comes in the Series 3 by default?
3) Are there specific drives that you buy to upgrade?

Your external drive complicates things. I don't have any experience with them. Look at this thread

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784

for details, including recommended drives. The S3 has a 250GB drive by default.

-- Doug

[jrm01]

I would try the Kickstart 54 test as shown here (middle of the page):

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/DVR_Expander_Troubleshooting_Generic.html

[JFKLS1]

Hi everyone, I would like to start by saying I had the exact same problem with my series 3. The WD expander drive failed almost over night and I lost over 100 shows I had saved. Very disappointing. I will never use one of those again. I now have an HD XL and a series 3 so I hope not to have that happen again.....:)

[Puppy76]

Yeah, I got an XL after hearing all those problems with that expander. If nothing else, even if it worked fine it would double your chances of loss.

Of course the XL uses a Western Digital drive, and I'd feel a lot better if it used a Seagate, but oh well. (And it's one of those eco drive that changes spindle speed, which seems scary to me for longevity...)

[Dougmeister]

I would try the Kickstart 54 test as shown here (middle of the page):

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/DVR_Expander_Troubleshooting_Generic.html

Ok. It rebooted during the "Extended Test" on the Primary drive (it passed the "Initial State" and "Short Test" on both the Primary and Secondary drives. I *think* it passed the conveyance test on both, but I can't say for sure. It said "Not started" for the "Extended Test" and "Off-line Scan" test for the Secondary Drive. Then it didn't say "fail", it just rebooted not even a minute into the "Extended Test" on the Primary Drive (less than 10% completed).

So, according to TiVo's docs, I need to contact TiVo Customer Support to exchange the DVR.

But what are my options? I *just* upgraded to Lifetime in December on this unit.

I could:

1) Send it to TiVo, lose all of my shows, and they'll charge me a lot of money
2) Try copying the contents of the bad drive to my computer with winMFS and buy a new hard drive myself
3) Do #1 or #2, fixing it, then sell it w/ my Lifetime subscription, and buy a dif't PVR (an HD XL?)

I *think* that the best option is to buy a WD10EVCS for like $115, run WinMFS and attempt to copy the bad drive over to it. If it works, then I have all of my shows. If it doesn't, then the problem should be fixed and I'll have a lot more storage.

Agree/disagree?

And if I end up losing everything, should I stop using the WD Expander? It sounds like it has been nothing but trouble for most people.

Thanks.

[treacherous]

I had the same experience here. I had the DVR expanders on both my S3 and HD. I bought the expander for my S3 back in 11/07. As of late 1/09 I started to get a random reboot. I thought it was related to the beta OS version on there at first. All drive tests came back alright (KS 54,57, 58, etc), internal SATA cable reseated, external ESATA cable replaced. I finally divorced the expander drive and ran without it for a week. I experienced no reboots during the week. It got to the point that every show was rebooting the S3. I bought and installed one of the 1TB WD10EVCS (http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=206827123) drives and no problems since.

I have never swapped any of the internal drives in any of my Tivos and found the Windows version of MFSLive (http://www.mfslive.org/) so incredibly easy to use. I chose not to transfer my recordings so process was extremely quick. It must have taken less than 30-45 minutes from unplugging the S3 to starting it back up. I did the upgrade via my late '08 Macbook booted into Vista.

I used this (http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=203383101) SATA adapter to migrate the drives.

It looks like it would've been easy enough to also transfer the recordings but I didn't have anything that important on there.

It seems now that I have read more than a few stories of these DVR Expanders dying a few months after the warranty runs out. Mine made it a little over 14 months. My other one seems to be working fine so far.

I wonder if WD would warranty the drive out of the case and process it as a bare bones drive instead of one installed in the DVR expander case?

Of course it would only matter if drive in enclosure was sold with 3 year warranty as a bare bones drive.

UPDATE:
I pulled drive out of enclosure. They way it disassembles make it pretty much useless as a future enclosure. The drive inside is a WD5000AVJS Series WD AV.

I first checked the general WD site for warranties (http://support.wdc.com/warranty/policy.asp#policy?lang=en) and saw that WD AV series are only one year.

I then checked serial number on WD warranty site (http://websupport.wdc.com/warranty/serialinput.asp?custtype=end&requesttype=warranty&lang=en) and warranty for drive expired 12.1.08. I was hoping it might have a 3 year warranty but not in this case. Not a big deal. The trash can it will go. Drive cannot complete WD Data Lifeguard diagnostics (http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?modelno=WD5000AVJS&x=11&y=3) on my XP box and drive will not format attached to my Macbook as well.

[Dougmeister]

Ok. I ordered an OEM WD10EVCS from Amazon (had a gift cert). I have a computer w/ SATA connectors, so I don't need to order the SATA adapter or anything else, right?

[jfh3]

Ok. I ordered an OEM WD10EVCS from Amazon (had a gift cert). I have a computer w/ SATA connectors, so I don't need to order the SATA adapter or anything else, right?

Nope. Just a SATA/power cable for the old drive and one for the new.

[Dougmeister]

Do I need any special tools to open the series 3?

Is there a walkthru for the steps?

Edit: nevermind. Found it.

Link (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/10/26/how-to-upgrade-your-series3-drive/)

[Dougmeister]

Hey, I ended up calling TiVo support to see what they said, and the guy there seemed pretty adamant that it was probably the external drive. Additionally, he seemed fixated on the idea that the SATA cable had gotten crimped.

What do you guys think? Should I just try buying a replacement cable? Are they special or will any eSATA cable do the trick? If they're that flaky, I'd like to spend a few extra bucks and get a more durable one (if that indeed is the problem).

Thoughts?

[bkdtv]

Do I need any special tools to open the series 3?

Is there a walkthru for the steps?

Edit: nevermind. Found it.

Link (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/10/26/how-to-upgrade-your-series3-drive/)
Make sure you use the instructions stickied at the top of this forum (linked in my signature).

[bkdtv]

Hey, I ended up calling TiVo support to see what they said, and the guy there seemed pretty adamant that it was probably the external drive. Additionally, he seemed fixated on the idea that the SATA cable had gotten crimped.

What do you guys think? Should I just try buying a replacement cable? Are they special or will any eSATA cable do the trick? If they're that flaky, I'd like to spend a few extra bucks and get a more durable one (if that indeed is the problem).

Thoughts?Defective or problematic eSATA cables are often the culprit when it comes to issues with external drives. The recommended cable can be found in the TivoCommunity Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784).

Keep in mind the "plug and play" eSATA expansion no longer works if you upgrade the internal drive, as per the FAQ mentioned in the previous post.

[DougJohnson]

Hey, I ended up calling TiVo support to see what they said, and the guy there seemed pretty adamant that it was probably the external drive. Additionally, he seemed fixated on the idea that the SATA cable had gotten crimped.

What do you guys think? Should I just try buying a replacement cable? Are they special or will any eSATA cable do the trick? If they're that flaky, I'd like to spend a few extra bucks and get a more durable one (if that indeed is the problem).

Thoughts?

It sounds like a low cost, low risk thing to try. -- Doug

[Dougmeister]

Thanks for all the tips. The FAQ says: "This cable 'snaps' in to provide a firm connection."

I just checked, and the one that came with my WD does not "snap" in at all. (At least into the drive itself... didn't try the part that plugs into the TiVo).

Did I get a bum cable? I mean it works (at least it did 'til a week ago), and now it works *most* of the time, but it doesn't snap in.

If I buy one of the recommended replacement cables, I assume that it will do the snap thing a lot more readily?

I read something about some people modifying their cables to fit more snugly, "snap in", etc. Is that recommended?

[bkdtv]

If I buy one of the recommended replacement cables, I assume that it will do the snap thing a lot more readily?

I read something about some people modifying their cables to fit more snugly, "snap in", etc. Is that recommended?The SIIG mentioned in the FAQ does provide a firmer connection than most eSATA cables, but the word "snap" is applied liberally. No eSATA cables will have a tight connection with the TiVo. No matter what cable you have, you can potentially knock it loose by moving or bumping into your TiVo or the eSATA drive.

If your eSATA cable is loose, or not firmly inserted, then your My DVR Expander will cause instability / reboots. Of course, if your My DVR Expander is dead or dying, that will cause the same issues. If you still see the same problems with a new eSATA cable, then that confirms the my DVR Expander is the problem.

Modifying cables is hit or miss, which is why the FAQ doesn't suggest it.

[Dougmeister]

Gotcha. I guess the cheapest solution is to try:

1) reseating the cable and praying
2) then when that doesn't work, order a new cable on Monday (buy.com or eBay look to be the cheapest @ $11.50 - $12.50 shipped)
3) if THAT doesn't work, then I pull both drives out of the equation and upgrade the internal to the 1 GB that I already rec'd from Amazon

[Dougmeister]

Hey, I ran the S.M.A.R.T. test under the "Test dev/hdc" menu and it came up with:

TEST FAILED
IDENTIFY FAILED

It didn't find any drive under "/dev/hdb/". Not sure what's up with that.

I was guessing that "/dev/hdc" refers to the external drive?

1) Am I right?
2) Does that mean definitively that it's either the cable or the external drive?