HD DVR Constant Rebooting --> Cancellation

[ksigpaul]

I just wanted to post here some thoughts on my recent attempt to gift my TivoHD to my mother. I was a long-time subscriber with 3 boxes at one time and was very disappointed with my recent transaction and wanted to vent here. I had to leave Tivo b/c I ordered uVerse which is not currently compatible and was trying to share the Tivo love because of that. That being said, I doubt I'll ever go back to Tivo after the following realizations.

Before giving my box to my mother I wanted to clear out all the current settings so I ran the full reset feature. After doing so my box would no longer get past the "just a few more minutes screen." I had never had a problem with the box so I chalked it up to the programmers getting something wrong in the reset feature. I called in a couple of times and was walked through various reboots including a special one that was supposed to completely wipe and restore my harddrive.

After nothing worked I was given two options: Finish out my 1 year contract at 30 dollars and give up or pay 50 dollars (normally 150) to return the unit and receive a refurbished one which would have a 30 day return policy. I chose to give the refurb a try. I went with the "advance" option to get the tivo up and running as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I was sent a refurbished unit that had the exact same issue.

Now, I work in the software arena where the first rule of thumb when having an issues is to disconnect everything you have to debug. I did so and still no beans. I guess there's no quality control on those refurb units after all.

I did a little bit of research and came across what, to me at least, are comical instructions for "such a highly advanced device." Why should I have to turn on the Tivo in just the right way or worry about the strength of my cable signal or my cable card breaking and rebooting my Tivo endlessly?

Why isn't this thing fool proof? We pay a pretty high premium for the box as well as the monthly service to have what should be a foolproof and best box in the industry. All I'm seeing lately is hassle and money going out the door. I guess I don't understand the Tivo Business Model. Make people pay for an expensive box, pay an expensive monthly fee (with a 1-2-3 year contract) on top of their current cable card or set-top fees, and then make them pay more when something goes wrong and they're under contract, and then expect them to happily deal with the buggy software on their own time despite the fact that we OWN the hardware and could have done a better job testing it in our laboratories.

Needless to say I'm returning my refurb as well as canceling my parent's Tivo Service as well as my two boxes. My mother is only paying 16 dollars for her Verizon DVR instead of 15(tivo) +4(cable card) +4(cable card). I'm loving the uVerse ability to record 4 shows at once with zero extra monthly fees.

I'm hoping that this post catches someone's eye at Tivo so that the quality comes back upto what I was used to expecting for such an expensive service. It's pretty sad when a 3rd-party (weaknees.com) is able to out service a service company on their own hardware.

[routerspecialist]

I just wanted to post here some thoughts on my recent attempt to gift my TivoHD to my mother. I was a long-time subscriber with 3 boxes at one time and was very disappointed with my recent transaction and wanted to vent here. I had to leave Tivo b/c I ordered uVerse which is not currently compatible and was trying to share the Tivo love because of that. That being said, I doubt I'll ever go back to Tivo after the following realizations.

Before giving my box to my mother I wanted to clear out all the current settings so I ran the full reset feature. After doing so my box would no longer get past the "just a few more minutes screen." I had never had a problem with the box so I chalked it up to the programmers getting something wrong in the reset feature. I called in a couple of times and was walked through various reboots including a special one that was supposed to completely wipe and restore my harddrive.

After nothing worked I was given two options: Finish out my 1 year contract at 30 dollars and give up or pay 50 dollars (normally 150) to return the unit and receive a refurbished one which would have a 30 day return policy. I chose to give the refurb a try. I went with the "advance" option to get the tivo up and running as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I was sent a refurbished unit that had the exact same issue.

Now, I work in the software arena where the first rule of thumb when having an issues is to disconnect everything you have to debug. I did so and still no beans. I guess there's no quality control on those refurb units after all.

I did a little bit of research and came across what, to me at least, are comical instructions for "such a highly advanced device." Why should I have to turn on the Tivo in just the right way or worry about the strength of my cable signal or my cable card breaking and rebooting my Tivo endlessly?

Why isn't this thing fool proof? We pay a pretty high premium for the box as well as the monthly service to have what should be a foolproof and best box in the industry. All I'm seeing lately is hassle and money going out the door. I guess I don't understand the Tivo Business Model. Make people pay for an expensive box, pay an expensive monthly fee (with a 1-2-3 year contract) on top of their current cable card or set-top fees, and then make them pay more when something goes wrong and they're under contract, and then expect them to happily deal with the buggy software on their own time despite the fact that we OWN the hardware and could have done a better job testing it in our laboratories.

Needless to say I'm returning my refurb as well as canceling my parent's Tivo Service as well as my two boxes. My mother is only paying 16 dollars for her Verizon DVR instead of 15(tivo) +4(cable card) +4(cable card). I'm loving the uVerse ability to record 4 shows at once with zero extra monthly fees.

I'm hoping that this post catches someone's eye at Tivo so that the quality comes back upto what I was used to expecting for such an expensive service. It's pretty sad when a 3rd-party (weaknees.com) is able to out service a service company on their own hardware.

Any number of us have been complaining long and loudly that there is clearly some things wrong with the current software release. I have posted several times about this problem. I too have had to put up sporadic unexplained reboots, and no one seems to know anything for sure. In particular as it relates to your problem, Tivo is showing reckless disregard for it's customers by not stepping up.

[richsadams]

Sorry to hear of the frustrating experience. It sounds like there was some data corruption with your first box. Unusual but it happens...it's a computer after all. I've used the reset feature on every TiVo model (except the newest TiVo HDXL - don't have one) many times without any problems but things don't always go as planned I suppose.

I'm confused about the refurb though. You said "I went with the "advance" option to get the tivo up and running as soon as possible." What did you do exactly? Are you talking about forcing a software upgrade? Plus your statement about having to "turn on the TiVo in just the right way" is a little confusing. To turn TiVo on you plug it in, that's it.

It kind of sounds like you made things harder or at least more complicated than needed and are now upset because whatever you were trying to do didn't do what you expected.

I’m also curious as to why you didn't think that you should have to worry about your cable signal or problems with cable cards? Is there a “fool proof” A/V product like that? If so sign me up! I’m just not sure how a problematic cable signal or cable cards become TiVo's responsibility. Again, it's a computer...garbage in, garbage out and all of that.

With regard to TiVo charging $49 to replace a box that's fully out of warranty it seems that they were more than fair. I don't know of any company that replaces their products free after the warranty expires.

In any case, although I'm a TiVo fan I'm not here to say that they are perfect. No CE product is “fool proof” that I know of. I also don't know of a company that couldn't do a better QC job and TiVo's no exception to that. It's unfortunate that you had to go through all of that hassle. Having had about eight TiVo's in about as many years I've only had one go south (S2 hard drive failure) but can sympathize with anyone that's had such a poor experience.

[richsadams]

Any number of us have been complaining long and loudly that there is clearly some things wrong with the current software release. I have posted several times about this problem. I too have had to put up sporadic unexplained reboots, and no one seems to know anything for sure. In particular as it relates to your problem, Tivo is showing reckless disregard for it's customers by not stepping up.Hmmm...nothing wrong with ours at all. It's unfortunate that yours aren't doing so well. What have you done to address it? Did you open a case file w/TiVo?

Complaints about v11.0 are no more than average for seasonal upgrades. Hopefully if there is a bug unique to your situation it will be taken care of in the next upgrade which is in beta and should be out soon.

"A reckless disreagard..."? Please. :rolleyes:

[russ_]

I'm confused about the refurb though. You said "I went with the "advance" option to get the tivo up and running as soon as possible." What did you do exactly? Are you talking about forcing a software upgrade?

I believe the OP meant that they paid for advance shipping. And I agree with both your points that there's no "rock solid" A/V device and that $50 seems very reasonable for a replacement out of warranty (indeed, I was told $150).

Complaints about v11.0 are no more than average for seasonal upgrades. Hopefully if there is a bug unique to your situation it will be taken care of in the next upgrade which is in beta and should be out soon.

I have to disagree that the complaints surround v11 are nothing more than average. I've owned my HD unit since they came out and have had an S2 for at least 5 years and have never had the problems I have had in the past 3 months (in fact, I've never had problems until recently). It began with my unit missing season passes (around November if I recall) and after that got resolved (software bug) I'm now seeing the seemingly prevalent v11 gray screen/freeze/reboot bug. This last bug has lasted for more than 5 weeks (and is still a problem) and yields a costly box completely useless. Yes, I've escalated to Tivo (and Comcast) and Tivo acknowledges the problem as a software bug. And yes, I understand some bugs are inevitable and sometimes bugs can take a while to identify. However, I find it pretty poor service to release two crippling bugs (that essentially render the unit useless for its main function) within 2 months of each other. That is simply poor QA and while I'm not sure it's a reckless disregard I do believe Tivo should do better.

I used to recommend Tivo to family and friends but am now thinking against it as I don't want to be called if/when a similar problem is released in the future....

[TolloNodre]

I have to disagree that the complaints surround v11 are nothing more than average. I've owned my HD unit since they came out and have had an S2 for at least 5 years and have never had the problems I have had in the past 3 months (in fact, I've never had problems until recently).

Yea, 'cause there's NEVER been a complaint on this forum about a S2 update. :rolleyes:

Every update has complaints, this one - frankly - seems to have had fewer than most in the couple of years I've been lurking on the forum.

I - along with tens of thousands of others - have had zero problems.

I understand that when it affects you it's upsetting. But that doesn't make it a vast conspiracy or something out of the ordinary. It's just your turn.

[russ_]

Yea, 'cause there's NEVER been a complaint on this forum about a S2 update. :rolleyes:

Every update has complaints, this one - frankly - seems to have had fewer than most in the couple of years I've been lurking on the forum.

I - along with tens of thousands of others - have had zero problems.

I understand that when it affects you it's upsetting. But that doesn't make it a vast conspiracy or something out of the ordinary. It's just your turn.

Certainly and I wasn't trying to imply there have never been problems with the S2 but rather that I've never seen them and from my perspective problems have been more prevalent with the HD. Further, the problems I've seen with the HD have been crippling and while I don't have any data around it, I'd be curious how many of the S2 problems were of the same sort and how long it took for those to get fixed.

You're probably correct that tens of thousands of folks are not seeing the same problem. And of course it boils down to the luck of the draw so to speak. But there are a number of threads with a number of people stating they have similar issues with v11 on their HD and my only point is that Tivo should not only do a better job of minimizing such debilitating bugs prior to release (again, I've had two in almost two months) but also in how they respond to them. Five weeks or more to fix plus CS telling me (initially) I should pay $150 for a new unit because it's hardware isn't acceptable in my book. At this point I'm still holding out hope for a fix because I've used the Comcast DVR and it sucks. But if there were another decent game in town I'd be inclined to give it a shot.

I never said nor do I now believe it's some sort of conspiracy :rolleyes:

[routerspecialist]

Hmmm...nothing wrong with ours at all. It's unfortunate that yours aren't doing so well. What have you done to address it? Did you open a case file w/TiVo?

Complaints about v11.0 are no more than average for seasonal upgrades. Hopefully if there is a bug unique to your situation it will be taken care of in the next upgrade which is in beta and should be out soon.

"A reckless disreagard..."? Please. :rolleyes:

My SINCERE apologies for the typo, Mr. Adams. I guess I have to assume you never have that happen to you.....

[lafos]

My SINCERE apologies for the typo, Mr. Adams. I guess I have to assume you never have that happen to you.....

You didn't do the typo... I think the comment was that your phrasing was a bit strong. Companies that do exhibit a "reckless disregard" tend to either change or disappear, like a peanut company in the news recently. Now that's reckless disregard!

[routerspecialist]

I love my Tivo just as much as any of you, but I too, have been down this rathole of Tivo support calls, various and sundry kickstarts, drive removal, testing and the expense of replacement (didn't really help). So, don't say I haven't done my due diligence and paid my dues. What would help is some forthcoming communication from Tivo, which, hasn't happened and does not seem likely to occur.

So I do say there is a lack of reqard from Tivo to customers who have Tivo HDs and have had to go through this. To my credit (or maybe not), I have not given up, but I sure do understand why the OP did.

[Langree]

I love my Tivo just as much as any of you, but I too, have been down this rathole of Tivo support calls, various and sundry kickstarts, drive removal, testing and the expense of replacement (didn't really help). So, don't say I haven't done my due diligence and paid my dues. What would help is some forthcoming communication from Tivo, which, hasn't happened and does not seem likely to occur.

So I do say there is a lack of reqard from Tivo to customers who have Tivo HDs and have had to go through this. To my credit (or maybe not), I have not given up, but I sure do understand why the OP did.

In your other thread some of us offered ideas and to help you narrow things down and because it wasn't what you wanted to hear you ignored us, you are happy being angry at TiVo it seems.

As to the Op:

I did a little bit of research and came across what, to me at least, are comical instructions for "such a highly advanced device." Why should I have to turn on the Tivo in just the right way or worry about the strength of my cable signal or my cable card breaking and rebooting my Tivo endlessly?

Why isn't this thing fool proof? We pay a pretty high premium for the box as well as the monthly service to have what should be a foolproof and best box in the industry. All I'm seeing lately is hassle and money going out the door. I guess I don't understand the Tivo Business Model. Make people pay for an expensive box, pay an expensive monthly fee (with a 1-2-3 year contract) on top of their current cable card or set-top fees, and then make them pay more when something goes wrong and they're under contract, and then expect them to happily deal with the buggy software on their own time despite the fact that we OWN the hardware and could have done a better job testing it in our laboratories.


TiVo does not control the cable cards your Cable Co. gives you and signal strength both to strong and to weak can have an affect on systems.

Given that it happened on 2 boxes in the same ways would tell any troubleshooter to look beyond the TiVo units themselves.

[richsadams]

You didn't do the typo... I think the comment was that your phrasing was a bit strong. Companies that do exhibit a "reckless disregard" tend to either change or disappear, like a peanut company in the news recently. Now that's reckless disregard!Yep, that's what I meant. Waht typo? ;)

[richsadams]

I have to disagree that the complaints surround v11 are nothing more than average. <snip> However, I find it pretty poor service to release two crippling bugs (that essentially render the unit useless for its main function) within 2 months of each other.<snip>We can certainly agree to disagree, but IMO one of the best measurements of how many issues an upgrade may have can be found by reading the posts on this forum. After watching all of the various threads for years you'll have to either trust me when I say that v11.0 has not generated any more than the average number of posts or you can count them yourself and then read the posts about previous upgrades over the years, good and bad and draw your own conclusions. Anyone that's been around for a while can probably regale you with stories of frightening proportions regarding some upgrades. v11.0 pales by comparison to a number of them. That's not good or bad or meant to invalidate your troubles, but as they say, numbers don't lie.

With regard to there being crippling bugs, again IMO that's just not the case. A true "bug" should/would cause the same problem for everyone. Clearly that isn't happening. Again, going by the number of complaints even those complaining are not all having the same issues. Plus the symptoms you've described have been around long before v11.0 was ever issued. My money and experience says that replacing your hard drive would solve the problems. But you can wait for a fix if you'd like. Unfortunately it may or may not resolve what you're seeing. In any case, I can understand your frustration. You have my sympathies.

[russ_]

We can certainly agree to disagree, but IMO one of the best measurements of how many issues an upgrade may have can be found by reading the posts on this forum. After watching all of the various threads for years you'll have to either trust me when I say that v11.0 has not generated any more than the average number of posts or you can count them yourself and then read the posts about previous upgrades over the years, good and bad and draw your own conclusions. Anyone that's been around for a while can probably regale you with stories of frightening proportions regarding some upgrades. v11.0 pales by comparison to a number of them. That's not good or bad or meant to invalidate your troubles, but as they say, numbers don't lie.

I certainly haven't been posting here for as long as you and in the past have only lurked when I had oddities or wanted more info on a specific topic. As such, I'll have to take your word for it (as I don't feel like combing for more empirical data)... And, perhaps that means that the QA work is getting better or that the code base is; regardless I'd still argue it could be improved :p

With regard to there being crippling bugs, again IMO that's just not the case. A true "bug" should/would cause the same problem for everyone. Clearly that isn't happening. Again, going by the number of complaints even those complaining are not all having the same issues. Plus the symptoms you've described have been around long before v11.0 was ever issued. My money and experience says that replacing your hard drive would solve the problems. But you can wait for a fix if you'd like. Unfortunately it may or may not resolve what you're seeing. In any case, I can understand your frustration. You have my sympathies.

Sadly that's often the nature of bugs when software relies on an external environment (since no environment is identical). And, I definitely have read the posts outlining similar issues in the past related to drives. However, my failure lines up perfectly with the software release and prior (aside from that annoying season pass bug), it was fine in all respects; generally I don't believe in coincidences. Further, given that a drive replacement means an entire OS re-install, it's impossible (for an end user) to say if the problem is truly the disk or if it's something corrupt in the OS (or associated files). If someone has attempted to re-install the same disk after a "clean" install I'd love to know about it. I've been told the patch is due out this week so I guess we'll find out soon enough ;)

[richsadams]

<snip>regardless I'd still argue it could be improved :p No argument here.

Sadly that's often the nature of bugs when software relies on an external environment (since no environment is identical). Again, fully agree.

However, my failure lines up perfectly with the software release and prior (aside from that annoying season pass bug), it was fine in all respects; generally I don't believe in coincidences.It's not a coincidence or uncommon and you have plenty of company. After every upgrade there are always a number of folks claiming that the latest upgrade bricked or at least caused problems of some nature with their TiVo. One of the major reasons this happens is due to the upgrade process itself. TiVo utilizes two boot partitions to store its OS. When partition "A" is in use, partition "B" will be the target for the upgrade download. After automatically rebooting TiVo will begin using partition "B" OS and so on. At some point if there is a flaw in the drive (almost always bad sectors) the drive will falter or fail when an attempt to write data is made on a faulty part of the drive which until then had not previously been accessed. I can guarantee it will happen moments after the next upgrade. Invariably when the hard drive is replaced the issue is resolved.

Sometimes the problems can often be corrected with a hard reboot (unplug TiVo, wait 10 or 15 seconds and plug it back in). More serious problems may be found and/or repaired by TiVo's built-in diagnostic programs called Kickstarts (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823), other times not. Drives that have passed TiVo's diagnostics can fail under extended diagnostic programs like WD's Lifeguard (http://support.wdc.com/download/).

In any case, we agree that things aren't right with some TiVo's and the latest upgrade may have triggered the problem(s). Now I'll go way, way out on a limb and say that for as many people as the next upgrade helps, just as many will find their way to this forum with a problem. I'll also wager that something from a reboot to repairing or replacing the hard drive will resolve the issue(s). Live dangerously I always say. ;)

[russ_]

No argument here.
One of the major reasons this happens is due to the upgrade process itself. TiVo utilizes two boot partitions to store its OS. When partition "A" is in use, partition "B" will be the target for the upgrade download. After automatically rebooting TiVo will begin using partition "B" OS and so on. At some point if there is a flaw in the drive (almost always bad sectors) the drive will falter or fail when an attempt to write data is made on a faulty part of the drive which until then had not previously been accessed. I can guarantee it will happen moments after the next upgrade. Invariably when the hard drive is replaced the issue is resolved.
Interesting, I wasn't aware they were upgrading in that fashion. Makes perfect sense though and you're correct, it would certainly explain things.

Do you know if there's a way to force a change to the alternate partition? It seems that kickstart 52 does that, is that correct?

I'd also be interested in looking at the syslog data they dump (curious if there are kernel panics or something else preceding the reboots) but don't know if it's available short of removing the drive.

More serious problems may be found and/or repaired by TiVo's built-in diagnostic programs called Kickstarts (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823), other times not. Drives that have passed TiVo's diagnostics can fail under extended diagnostic programs like WD's Lifeguard (http://support.wdc.com/download/).
I've tried the kickstart options (at least 57 & 58) with no noticeable changes. I haven't pulled the drive yet but if the patch doesn't fix it I'll likely end up down that path.

Now I'll go way, way out on a limb and say that for as many people as the next upgrade helps, just as many will find their way to this forum with a problem. I'll also wager that something from a reboot to repairing or replacing the hard drive will resolve the issue(s). Live dangerously I always say. ;)
Definitely no argument that some folks will find the patch to fix the issue while others won't. That's also the nature of bugs and patches :p In my case, a reboot (of which there have been many) and the kickstart options haven't helped. Hopefully others have found success in those methods. I also concur that a drive swap would likely fix things (though I'm not 100% convinced it would be permanent given even new Tivos seem to be seeing this issue). However, I'm happy for the folks that have found that a permanent fix. And, as with the drive testing, it's likely that I'll end up down that path if the patch doesn't resolve my issues. I'm reluctant to drop my money into the thing but am even more reluctant to use the lame comcast dvr :D

[richsadams]

Do you know if there's a way to force a change to the alternate partition? It seems that kickstart 52 does that, is that correct?That's how it works...but the caveat is that KS52 doesn't always work. There is a checksum involved and if there is a disk error the download won't complete and things will appear to not have changed. When a scheduled upgrade occurs TiVo will continue to send the upgrade until it's successful. On occasion it just doesn't work and you'll find people posting about one of the "Service Update" screens (http://i21.tinypic.com/mh5bw9.jpg) showing up repeatedly but the upgrade is never installed.

I'd also be interested in looking at the syslog data they dump (curious if there are kernel panics or something else preceding the reboots) but don't know if it's available short of removing the drive.There are wiz kids over at MFSlive.org that do those sorts of things...and they even visit the Great Unwashed masses here now and again. But yes, you'd need to pull the drive to get that info.

TiVo seasonal upgrades (spring, summer, fall) are usually that, upgrades, although they often have bug fixes. Unfortunately no one knows what they are because TiVo has chosen not to publish that info. Now and then they'll release an interim update, something closer to a "patch" but the upgrades usually include new features of some sort. However there's been quite a few bigger, better, faster features added over the last few releases so hard to say what they might be this time and the rumor mill has been quieter than usual.

I don't expect anything big...I can hardly keep up with all of the features now. I know they want to be competitive and keep ahead of the pack, but quite frankly I'd rather they spend a little more time perfecting what they have and ensuring it works 24/7 than adding any more bells and whistles right now. Buy that's just me. :)

[russ_]

There are wiz kids over at MFSlive.org that do those sorts of things...and they even visit the Great Unwashed masses here now and again. But yes, you'd need to pull the drive to get that info.
Yeah, I've done it before with my S2 (upgraded the drive as well as removed dead drive and re-imaged) and looked at the logs on that. I was hoping there was an easier way now.

Sadly, you may be correct about the disk or this is a sad coincidence. I figured I'd try ks52 but, per the recommendations in your other post, opted to try (once more) a ks57 and ks58 figuring I'd move in that sequence hoping one worked where it had failed before. Only now things are stuck in an endless GSOD loop :( It goes from welcome to almost there to gsod where it stays for about 1m before starting over and seems to be ignoring "requests" for different kickstart options.

I've considered divorcing the expander but am a bit reluctant to do before exhausting other options as I don't want to lose my data if possible.

Any ideas?

[routerspecialist]

Yeah, I've done it before with my S2 (upgraded the drive as well as removed dead drive and re-imaged) and looked at the logs on that. I was hoping there was an easier way now.

Sadly, you may be correct about the disk or this is a sad coincidence. I figured I'd try ks52 but, per the recommendations in your other post, opted to try (once more) a ks57 and ks58 figuring I'd move in that sequence hoping one worked where it had failed before. Only now things are stuck in an endless GSOD loop :( It goes from welcome to almost there to gsod where it stays for about 1m before starting over and seems to be ignoring "requests" for different kickstart options.

I've considered divorcing the expander but am a bit reluctant to do before exhausting other options as I don't want to lose my data if possible.

Any ideas?

I know you're requesting information from another user, but I thought I'd let you know that I have had a similar experience to yours (and others on this board), and I also tried the Kickstart 57, 58 only to find myself in the same condition as you; an endless GSOD loop, identical to your description.

I do not have an expander, however. And my drive is fairly new and has passed 24 hours of WD diagnostics testing.

[russ_]

I know you're requesting information from another user, but I thought I'd let you know that I have had a similar experience to yours (and others on this board), and I also tried the Kickstart 57, 58 only to find myself in the same condition as you; an endless GSOD loop, identical to your description.

I do not have an expander, however. And my drive is fairly new and has passed 24 hours of WD diagnostics testing.

Hmm, that doesn't sound good. Did you eventually get it fixed or is it still busted? Did Tivo have any advice (if you called)?

[richsadams]

I've considered divorcing the expander but am a bit reluctant to do before exhausting other options as I don't want to lose my data if possible.

Any ideas?Hmmm...if you're in a reboot loop, removing the expander couldn't hurt. If it does indeed fire up it would likely mean that the eSATA drive (cable, enclosure, etc.) is the source of the problem. An actual "divorce" won't happen without your "blessing". That is you would be prompted by a screen (http://i40.tinypic.com/2qcfnex.jpg) (or this screen (http://i42.tinypic.com/1pv22w.jpg)) asking if you want to remove the external drive. At that time you could unplug TiVo, reconnect your eSATA drive and see if there's still a problem.

Either way, entering a KS procedure should still work. KS 57 and KS 58 both attempt to isolate bad sectors however they may not be successful if there's enough data corruption. Again, the problem may be with the external drive and removing it could resolve things. A program like Spinrite can do the same thing (and even promotes its TiVo repair abilities) however the cost is close to as much as a 1TB drive these days, so replacing a drive is usually the way to go anyway.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

[richsadams]

I know you're requesting information from another user, but I thought I'd let you know that I have had a similar experience to yours (and others on this board), and I also tried the Kickstart 57, 58 only to find myself in the same condition as you; an endless GSOD loop, identical to your description.

I do not have an expander, however. And my drive is fairly new and has passed 24 hours of WD diagnostics testing.That's unfortunate...sorry to hear that. The source of the problem isn't necessarily the drive itself. OS data corruption can be so severe that TiVo can't recover sometimes. If you're comfortable that there is no problem with the drive itself you should be able to use Instant Cake (http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/instantcake.cfm) to re-image your drive and be back in business.

If you ran the extended read/write (all zeros)/read test all of the data on the drive would have been wiped so you'd need to re-image it anyway.

Good luck and post back details about what happened.

[russ_]

If it does indeed fire up it would likely mean that the eSATA drive (cable, enclosure, etc.) is the source of the problem. An actual "divorce" won't happen without your "blessing". That is you would be prompted by a screen (http://i40.tinypic.com/2qcfnex.jpg) (or this screen (http://i42.tinypic.com/1pv22w.jpg)) asking if you want to remove the external drive. At that time you could unplug TiVo, reconnect your eSATA drive and see if there's still a problem.
I've tried this and it goes from almost there to the first image you reference (the blue screen) instead of jumping to the green screen. If the internal drive were bad, would it go to the green screen or does the blue one (e.g. external drive check) preempt the disk checking.

[richsadams]

I've tried this and it goes from almost there to the first image you reference (the blue screen) instead of jumping to the green screen. If the internal drive were bad, would it go to the green screen or does the blue one (e.g. external drive check) preempt the disk checking.If you remove the eSATA drive, plug TiVo back in and it gets to the "blue screen" (http://i40.tinypic.com/2qcfnex.jpg) the problem is almost certainly with the external hard drive. Good news in a way. I can't recall if you replaced the eSATA cable with the recommended SIIG Serial ATA external cable (http://www.provantage.com/siig-cb-sa0111-s1~7SISE00F.htm). If not, that's where I'd start. That might do the trick and you'll have all of your recordings back.

It's also possible that the corruption on the eSATA drive is such that it can't be repaired, but reformatting it might work. That would mean divorcing the drive and then reconnecting it. That will format the drive, but sadly most or all of the recordings made since it was connected will be lost.

If that doesn't do it then it could be the enclosure but more likely the hard drive itself. Might be time for an RMA.

Hope that helps and let us know how it goes.

[urwathrtz]

It took 2 RMA's until I got one that worked. The whole "return the brand new one you bought and get a refurb to replace it. Oh by the way the one we just sent you is only guarantied for 30 days and will cost you $50 because the brand new one is older than 90 days" kinda sucks. The second RMA was free, well I had to pay shipping to send it back. Maybe just coincidental but, the brand new one worked flawless until the fall service update came along.

[routerspecialist]

[QUOTE=Langree;7092545]In your other thread some of us offered ideas and to help you narrow things down and because it wasn't what you wanted to hear you ignored us, you are happy being angry at TiVo it seems.

Langree:

I've already stated the extent of my troubleshooting activities, here and in other threads. And No, I don't "like" being angry with Tivo. I want a Tivo that does not regularly reboot.

Your statement that I "ignored" others advice is simple not true. I took a lot of that advice, and it turned to be to my detriment. So, yes, I am posting in the forums to see if others are having similar experiences, and I am finding that some are.

Your response, which clearly is directed to me personally, seems wildly out of context for this thread (it is after all about the OP and his experience).

[lew]

After watching all of the various threads for years you'll have to either trust me when I say that v11.0 has not generated any more than the average number of posts or you can count them yourself and then read the posts about previous upgrades over the years, good and bad and draw your own conclusions. Anyone that's been around for a while can probably regale you with stories of frightening proportions regarding some upgrades. v11.0 pales by comparison to a number of them. That's not good or bad or meant to invalidate your troubles, but as they say, numbers don't lie.




There are two threads regarding users getting a grey/black screen. Some with cablecards and some without. Tivojerry has said tivo is aware of the problem. This has been going on for a couple of months. Tivo really needs a way to roll back customers those customers to an earlier software version.

I agree most of the posts are the normal, new software exposing a failing hard disk issues but I don't remember a known issue taking this long to get resolved.

[richsadams]

There are two threads regarding users getting a grey/black screen. Some with cablecards and some without. Tivojerry has said tivo is aware of the problem. This has been going on for a couple of months. Tivo really needs a way to roll back customers those customers to an earlier software version.

I agree most of the posts are the normal, new software exposing a failing hard disk issues but I don't remember a known issue taking this long to get resolved.Yep, remember reading about that. I wouldn't hold my breath on being able to roll back to an earlier version...hasn't happened in eight or nine years and probably never will. But yes, they should have addressed that issue a while back.

[lew]

Yep, remember reading about that. I wouldn't hold my breath on being able to roll back to an earlier version...hasn't happened in eight or nine years and probably never will. But yes, they should have addressed that issue a while back.

My memory is DTV/Tivo rolled back one software version. I recall a "bug" fix release being released just a few weeks after the rollout. It was never clear if this was fixing a DTV or Tivo created problem.

I don't know if tivo has too many variables (different cable systems, signal strength, types of cable cards etc) or if they don't have enough programmers engineers. Rolling back selected customers may be the only way to provide a temporary fix. Change the version number and release it to those customers as a beta version.

[richsadams]

I don't know if tivo has too many variables (different cable systems, signal strength, types of cable cards etc) or if they don't have enough programmers engineers. Rolling back selected customers may be the only way to provide a temporary fix. Change the version number and release it to those customers as a beta version.From your post to TiVo's ears...or antennas or...;)

[donnoh]

My memory is DTV/Tivo rolled back one software version. I recall a "bug" fix release being released just a few weeks after the rollout. It was never clear if this was fixing a DTV or Tivo created problem.

I don't know if tivo has too many variables (different cable systems, signal strength, types of cable cards etc) or if they don't have enough programmers engineers. Rolling back selected customers may be the only way to provide a temporary fix. Change the version number and release it to those customers as a beta version.

So you really have no data, you're just making an educated guess?

[lew]

So you really have no data, you're just making an educated guess?

My point is there is a problem with the present software that results in customers getting a black/grey screen. No reason to count the number of posters and speculate, tivo has acknowledged the problem. Data is not required.

I'm making an educated guess that tivo's internal testing, beta testing and initial rollout may not have tested enough combinations of cable systems/cable cards and systems with different signal strengths to discover the problem. I don't have any data to dispute a cynical person who thinks tivo knew about this situation but still pushed the upgrade.

My point is this upgrade had issues other then the typical issues with a software upgrade exposing a failing hard drive.

My suggestion is that tivo have system in place, for every upgrade, to enable them to downgrade customers with problems that can't be solved in a few weeks.

[richsadams]

My point is there is a problem with the present software that results in customers getting a black/grey screen. No reason to count the number of posters and speculate, tivo has acknowledged the problem. Data is not required.I'll verify that point. It is a known issue of which TiVo is aware. I think it's fairly rare, but confirmed. Hopefully the next upgrade will address it.

To be honest, with all of the various hardware, software, cableco variations, etc., etc., not to mention the continually evolving CE products TiVo has to deal with (not to mention those of us that like to tweak things to greater or lesser extents), I can't imagine working in their R&D or QC departments. What a challenge it must be. Sometimes I feel like TiVo s/b as "fool proof" as a toaster like some expect it to be, but then reality sets in and I'm surprised that there aren't more issues sometimes.

[donnoh]

My point is there is a problem with the present software that results in customers getting a black/grey screen. No reason to count the number of posters and speculate, tivo has acknowledged the problem. Data is not required.

I'm making an educated guess that tivo's internal testing, beta testing and initial rollout may not have tested enough combinations of cable systems/cable cards and systems with different signal strengths to discover the problem. I don't have any data to dispute a cynical person who thinks tivo knew about this situation but still pushed the upgrade.

My point is this upgrade had issues other then the typical issues with a software upgrade exposing a failing hard drive.

My suggestion is that tivo have system in place, for every upgrade, to enable them to downgrade customers with problems that can't be solved in a few weeks.

I've had no problem with the current software, so in my experience there is no problem.

[lew]

I've had no problem with the current software, so in my experience there is no problem.

That doesn't change the fact that tivo has acknowledged a problem for some customers.

[donnoh]

Just exactly what kind of problems have you personally experienced Rich Adams?

[donnoh]

That doesn't change the fact that tivo has acknowledged a problem for some customers.

Post the "tivo has acknowledged" problems. I'd really like to read them.

[DeWitt]

Post the "tivo has acknowledged" problems. I'd really like to read them.

Take a look at this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7092937#post7092937

There is apparently a software update to 11.0 in limited distribution testing.

[lew]

Post the "tivo has acknowledged" problems. I'd really like to read them.

Take a look at this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7092937#post7092937

There is apparently a software update to 11.0 in limited distribution testing.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of searching.

I'll agree many (most?) of the posters have failing hard drives. The point is this software version has issues for some customers. Tivo has gone months without either solving the problem or rolling those customers back to the previous software version.

[richsadams]

Yep, this post...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7060695#post7060695

And some others here and there talking about a known issue or two.

[richsadams]

Just exactly what kind of problems have you personally experienced Rich Adams?Me? I'm fine. Thanks for asking. ;)

Seriously, over the years I've experienced various and assorted glitches, bugs or what have you. In every instance I can think of TiVo has remedied them all at some point. It's never as quickly as anyone would like of course, but I have yet to see something that was problematic continue for more than an upgrade or two at most. The TiVo folks that frequent this forum are understandably careful about what they say but they do acknowledge issues now and then, usually when they're about to get fixed but sometimes they ask for more information...TiVoStephen (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/member.php?u=932) gets some in-depth details to take back to the lab once in a while. (Feel free to search his posts for more.)

So I had a Series2 HDD fail once. Other than that just some annoyances and such...nothing I couldn't deal with for a while. Based on years of posts from all types of folks here my experiences seem to be about average.

That's not to invalidate those that do have troubles and serious ones now and then because they are very real. The cause/resolution equation can often be one for debate. Sometimes it has to do with TiVo, others not and sometimes we bystanders figure it out, sometimes not...it just gets fixed. But again, there's been a resolution to everything that I can think of.

[routerspecialist]

I've tried this and it goes from almost there to the first image you reference (the blue screen) instead of jumping to the green screen. If the internal drive were bad, would it go to the green screen or does the blue one (e.g. external drive check) preempt the disk checking.

In my experience, it went from WPU to ATH to GSOD and repeats....over and over, and there was no getting out of it.

Someone mentioned this being "not good".....Yes, indeed, it's NOT good......kickstart 58 blew the whole thing up. I pulled the drive, replaced with another. Did the whole instant cake thing on the new drive. The Tivo's okay, for now. We'll see if the reboots start up or continue(s).

I have subsequently tested the supposed "bad" drive with WD diags, and some others (Hitachi works on WD drives too), and according to the tests, it's a PERFECT drive. No errors, no nothing. Latest test has been going on for about eight hours - and it's the "exerciser" option (as in more rigorous) test and I should have had some errors by now......but I DON'T.

This is the kind of thing that we were just talking about......I just had to spend hours replacing a drive that supposedly went bad, and going through all that nonsense, and all that EXPENSE.....only to find out that there was nothing wrong with the original drive at all. All for nothing....

[russ_]

If you remove the eSATA drive, plug TiVo back in and it gets to the "blue screen" (http://i40.tinypic.com/2qcfnex.jpg) the problem is almost certainly with the external hard drive. Good news in a way. I can't recall if you replaced the eSATA cable with the recommended SIIG Serial ATA external cable (http://www.provantage.com/siig-cb-sa0111-s1~7SISE00F.htm). If not, that's where I'd start. That might do the trick and you'll have all of your recordings back.

I tried a new cable with the same behavior. I'm going to give Tivo a call (though I suspect I know what their answer will be) before I try divorcing the external drive.

[WaldorfSalad]

I've had no problem with the current software, so in my experience there is no problem.I've had a TivoHD for a couple of days and have experienced black screen, so in my experience there IS a problem. Seriously though, what do posts like that achieve except to be intentionally antagonistic?

[richsadams]

.....only to find out that there was nothing wrong with the original drive at all. All for nothing....I understand your frustration, no one likes to have to deal with problems. But there was something wrong with your TiVo and it turns out that it (probably) wasn't a hardware problem is all. The diagnostic tests you're running would have confirmed that and saved you some time and money by just re-imaging your OEM drive. That you decided to replace the drive was your call...albeit probably based on advice you may have come across here. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

The moral of any of these stories is that there is no silver bullet. Plenty of folks that have had problems fixed them by replacing their hard drives (using their original drive to image them or IC). Others simply rebooted and that was it. Many found something in between to be the cure and still others returned their TiVo for a replacement. The resolution to a problem for one isn't necessarily the same for another.

With regard to the quote in your post, the OP seems to have a problem with his expansion drive...might be data corruption, could be a cable or an enclosure or the hard drive may be failing. We'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps you can still use your original hard drive and return the new one? Just a thought. Anyway, glad that things are working again.

[russ_]

I tried a new cable with the same behavior. I'm going to give Tivo a call (though I suspect I know what their answer will be) before I try divorcing the external drive.

Tivo didn't have any other suggestions past what has been tried (aside from plugging directly into an outlet vs. power strip). We tried divorcing the external drive and that simply goes into a "divorce" loop. Given they want $149 to replace and new drives are much less, I'm going to explore my options for either using mfstools to copy an image off a friend's unit or instantcake.

If anyone has specific drive recommendations, let me know. Otherwise I'll search around the forum as I seem to recall it being discussed.

[routerspecialist]

Tivo didn't have any other suggestions past what has been tried (aside from plugging directly into an outlet vs. power strip). We tried divorcing the external drive and that simply goes into a "divorce" loop. Given they want $149 to replace and new drives are much less, I'm going to explore my options for either using mfstools to copy an image off a friend's unit or instantcake.

If anyone has specific drive recommendations, let me know. Otherwise I'll search around the forum as I seem to recall it being discussed.

Well, I just put in a Samsung, needed or not......I'll let you know how it works out.....

[richsadams]

If anyone has specific drive recommendations, let me know. Otherwise I'll search around the forum as I seem to recall it being discussed.Bummer. Well, you tried. A visit to the Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5616160#post5616160) sticky thread is in order then. It has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section V covers internal upgrades. The process is very simple.

[richsadams]

Well, I just put in a Samsung, needed or not......I'll let you know how it works out.....That would be good to know indeed. There have been several recent reports of Sammy Spinpoints failing after a time or not initially working at all (hence they are not on the recommended list). Hopefully yours will behave.

[routerspecialist]

Thanks for saving me the trouble of searching.

I'll agree many (most?) of the posters have failing hard drives. The point is this software version has issues for some customers. Tivo has gone months without either solving the problem or rolling those customers back to the previous software version.


If there's a new version of v11, SIGN ME UP! Especially after last night.....

[russ_]

Bummer. Well, you tried. A visit to the Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5616160#post5616160) sticky thread is in order then. It has everything you need to know about upgrading your TiVo including recommended hard drives and Section V covers internal upgrades. The process is very simple.

Yup, wish there was a different outcome... being out of town off and on for the past few months meant I had quite a few episodes stored up :( Oh well, time to hunt them down via hulu, etc I guess.

Thanks for the pointer to the drive thread (and for the other recommendations along the way). I had perused it shortly after posting and am going to attempt to find a Seagate or Hitachi (my history w/ WD has been a bit bad).

[GreenMonkey]

I know you're requesting information from another user, but I thought I'd let you know that I have had a similar experience to yours (and others on this board), and I also tried the Kickstart 57, 58 only to find myself in the same condition as you; an endless GSOD loop, identical to your description.

I do not have an expander, however. And my drive is fairly new and has passed 24 hours of WD diagnostics testing.

Ditto. Same symptoms. Endless GSOD loop. Last month.

I put in a new HDD with a new instantcake image and it's working fine now. Didn't get around to plugging the drive into the PC and running diagnostics on it to see if it has a hard drive problem. No time to mess with it yet.

It's actually been a little flaky though - I made it reboot playing the same video twice in a row, for example - but since I did a KS57 on it again and since the last update install, it's been stable again.

[richsadams]

Thanks for the pointer to the drive thread (and for the other recommendations along the way). I had perused it shortly after posting and am going to attempt to find a Seagate or Hitachi (my history w/ WD has been a bit bad).I've been a Seagate man for years and years. However I have used three 1TB WD GP drives...two in TiVo's over the past couple of years and all have performed perfectly. Posts about customer interactions with them in the past few months would indicate that they are doing a very good job there as well. I still like Seagates, but the WD drives, particularly the recommended, economically priced DVR dedicated WD10EVCS drive, appears to be doing quite well.

One drawback with Seagates is that their AAM cannot be adjusted and some can be quite noisy...just something to consider. Their DB35 DVR dedicated line of HDD's are quiet but a little spendy. I have one that I used as an eSATA drive w/our TiVo S3 in '07 still running as a backup drive. The only drawback is that it's so quiet that I have to look at the led light to see if it's working. :rolleyes:

Anyway, happy upgrading!

[routerspecialist]

That would be good to know indeed. There have been several recent reports of Sammy Spinpoints failing after a time or not initially working at all (hence they are not on the recommended list). Hopefully yours will behave.

Well this one worked, whether it will last, who knows?

I used it as a backup drive, filled it up to 600 GB, transferred files back and forth for months, and of course I tested it extensively before putting it into service, so we'll see....

I used to think the WD EVCS were the drive to use, now I'm not so sure.

With my second Tivo HD, I put in a WD EACS, but not of the 00ZJB0 firmware, but rather of the 22D6B0 firmware - it's been two months, and it's been fine. Rock solid, actually

So who really who knows for sure? I've got a spare WD EVCS in case I ever need it.

[richsadams]

I've got a spare WD EVCS in case I ever need it.It would probably work very well in a new TiVo for the den, or the bedroom...or...;)

[russ_]

I'm using this weekend to try and get the Tivo up and running again but have run into a small snag... it seems the WD diagnostic tool (as well as Spinrite) doesn't like my Dell SATA (which runs Intel RAID); I figured I'd test both drives first to confirm this is a drive issue and ascertain if I could simply try to use instantcake on the original drive. I did try the built in Dell drive diagnostics (available via a BIOS menu) and both the external and internal drive pass but I can't say exactly what that tool is doing. If anyone has tips on how to get the diagnostics tools to work that'd be great, otherwise I guess I'll head into the office tomorrow to use a computer there to test from.

Also, I noticed a note in the upgrade FAQ that states if you upgrade the internal drive, the plug 'n play eSATA drive no longer works. Is that still the case (even with the WD Expander)? What about if the original 160GB drive is simply re-imaged?

thanks.

[richsadams]

Also, I noticed a note in the upgrade FAQ that states if you upgrade the internal drive, the plug 'n play eSATA drive no longer works. Is that still the case (even with the WD Expander)? What about if the original 160GB drive is simply re-imaged?

thanks.AFAIK that's still the case even w/the WD My DVR Expander. If you were to use a clean/original image such as Instant Cake (http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/instantcake.cfm) on an OEM drive it should restore the P&P capability. I don't know that anyone has tried that. Not sure why they would. Seems like if you have the OEM internal drive out it would be easier/wiser to just install a larger drive.

[russ_]

<snip> an OEM drive it should restore the P&P capability. I don't know that anyone has tried that. Not sure why they would. Seems like if you have the OEM internal drive out it would be easier/wiser to just install a larger drive.

My only thinking was if the OS was somehow corrupted but the drive was still good I could save some money by simply re-imaging it. However, I tend to agree that one is better off with a single drive so I'd probably just buy a bigger one anyway and asked more out of curiosity than anything else. I'm also interested in testing my current drives to ensure that's the root of my problem at this point.

Given the XL has a 1T drive in it, I wonder what it is that stops the plug 'n play from working (since it's not the size)...

[richsadams]

My only thinking was if the OS was somehow corrupted but the drive was still good I could save some money by simply re-imaging it. However, I tend to agree that one is better off with a single drive so I'd probably just buy a bigger one anyway and asked more out of curiosity than anything else. I'm also interested in testing my current drives to ensure that's the root of my problem at this point.

Given the XL has a 1T drive in it, I wonder what it is that stops the plug 'n play from working (since it's not the size)...Understood and certainly makes sense if you're happy with the existing setup. Removing a failure point is a good idea, but the chances of either drive failing would/should be equal and the results the same.

The software in the TiVo HD and HDXL is set to only recognize the WD My DVR Expander drive model for P&P.