Dollhouse - 02/20/09 [Text View]

Robin

02-21-2009, 09:13 AM

A couple of "Joss Moments" in this one. Mostly dialog. Of course now I don't remember what they were...I'll rewatch and post later.

I can't decide whether the guy who killed her parents is Alpha. All signs point to "sorta". Ruthless killer? Check. But why? It seems like he's trying to protect Echo. Did her parents do something to her? Is that why she joined the Dollhouse? It doesn't seem like it, given her high school video. Why is would he tip off the FBI? Trying to get her rescued from the Dollhouse? Why kill the already-incapacitated man in the van? Revenge? Or tying up loose ends?

Does the handler really trust Echo? Or was he just playing along?

We see why Fred shied away from Echo touching her. Eeouch! Interesting that Alpha didn't kill her, too. Did he kill any women?

It seems that there are more than five actives. When Alpha went on his rampage she sent the actives to their beds, and five got in. Echo and Alpha, at least, weren't there. Either a huge continuity error or (more likely) there are multiple bedrooms.

thudtrain

02-21-2009, 11:30 AM

And...Badger!

Lori

02-21-2009, 11:39 AM

Really liked this ep. Couple of sharp dialogue moments, and the story kept me interested.

Much better than the pilot, and I liked the pilot. :)

Mars Rocket

02-21-2009, 11:52 AM

I thought this one was *worse* then the pilot, if that's possible. The premise continues to be stupid (they as much as acknowledged that she's just a call girl), the background check problems the company had in place were clearly inadequate (and yet they were able to figure it all out by just looking a little deeper?), Echo's imprint seemed to jump from "rugged, tough, outdoorsy girl" to "damsel in distress" as soon as she was threatened, the agency appears to be a secret to the FBI alone, the Alpha character is acting inconsistently (he saved Echo originally so he could have her hunted? I dunno - maybe he's testing her.), all the dialog about "surgical" precision on the cut up people seemed ridiculous, etc.

At least they're explaining stuff, although the "Do you trust me?" bit was a little over the top and not really necessary.

FilmCritic3000

02-21-2009, 12:20 PM

I can't decide whether the guy who killed her parents is Alpha. All signs point to "sorta". Ruthless killer? Check. But why? It seems like he's trying to protect Echo. Did her parents do something to her? Is that why she joined the Dollhouse? It doesn't seem like it, given her high school video. Why is would he tip off the FBI? Trying to get her rescued from the Dollhouse? Why kill the already-incapacitated man in the van? Revenge? Or tying up loose ends?

I really don't think those were her mother and father, as others have also hypothesized. They were both male and dressed in dress shirts and slacks. Unless Echo had gay male parents, I think they were officials of some sort, perhaps in her parent's house?

wprager

02-21-2009, 12:51 PM

And...Badger!

Yep, was that a "Joss moment"?

wprager

02-21-2009, 12:53 PM

I wonder if those two were on a stakeout. Maybe that was her parents' house and they were looking for her.

Jonathan_S

02-21-2009, 02:21 PM

We see why Fred shied away from Echo touching her. Eeouch! Interesting that Alpha didn't kill her, too. Did he kill any women?
I'm pretty sure he did. There was a blond girl, with cuts on her, laying on the floor of the shower just before the camera moved to show Echo. And the dialog implied that everyone besides Echo had been killed.

I like this more that last weeks episode. If Alpha was the one testing Echo then maybe it was an attempt to force the recovery of some wiped memories using stress and hallucinogens.

I suppose another possibility is that Alpha is still keeping a distant eye on Echo and moved in to protect her but didn't get there until after everything had gone down so the only one left to take out was the guy in the truck. (But then why bother. He wasn't going anywhere. Unless Alpha's not acting rationally. I guess you could kill him as revenge for taking part in threatening Echo...)

NJChris

02-21-2009, 03:13 PM

I liked this episode way more than the 1st one. Eliza was even better in it, acting-wise.

Tivohud

02-21-2009, 03:38 PM

I hope they explore some of the other dolls. My concern at this point is the show will devolve into a "imprint of the week" formula. I see enough threads for a season or two, but beyond that they're going to have dig a little deeper to keep the show fresh.

JimSpence

02-21-2009, 03:52 PM

A couple of Faith moments when she was beatin' on her hunter.

Peter000

02-21-2009, 05:39 PM

This week's episode was a thousand percent better than the opener, IMO. I loved the flashbacks; and seeing how the doctor got her scars.

But regarding the previews for next week? No spoilers, but it looks like it's going to SUCK big-time.

I wonder how the Dollhouse gets it's imprint info in the first place?

scandia101

02-21-2009, 07:17 PM

I just can't buy it.
It's a 24/7 operation and they only have the one guy doing all the computer tech.
They have a rescue/assault team, but the prick in the suit from the office leads the charge. WTF?
They're easily found by guys needing a high priced hooker, but the FBI (-Ballard) doesn't believe they exist because they can't find them.
The dialogue sucks.
Dushku has a dumb look on her face 90 % of the time - not just here, in everything she does.

I know how I'll be saving 40 some minutes of my time next week and beyond.

Doh

02-21-2009, 07:48 PM

If Alpha was the one testing Echo then maybe it was an attempt to force the recovery of some wiped memories using stress and hallucinogens.

I was thinking this might be it too.

I liked this ep less than last week, and I think it was mostly because the call girl aspect was front and center.

I think the woman in charge of the dollhouse is a weak link in the show, but I can't say exactly why.

twincaminferno

02-21-2009, 08:12 PM

I know how I'll be saving 40 some minutes of my time next week and beyond.

Writing about next weeks episode after it airs? :)

IndyJones1023

02-21-2009, 08:48 PM

After this one, I am still not compelled. I'll try it again. But it's really blah so far.

jay_man2

02-21-2009, 09:03 PM

"Four brothers, no Democrats." Almost deleted the SP after that line. Previews with next week's eye candy have me hanging in one more ep.

IndyJones1023

02-21-2009, 09:20 PM

"Four brothers, no Democrats." Almost deleted the SP after that line.

Why? That was easily the best line of the night.

Robin

02-21-2009, 09:39 PM

I'm curious too. I'm a dem, thought it was funny.

dswallow

02-21-2009, 09:47 PM

They figured out how to do this show.

Hire cute actor.

Have cute actor take off shirt and otherwise be real flirty.

Film cute actor playing around in bed.

Profit!

Good to see YummyMan again. Psycho or not.

Spire

02-21-2009, 10:26 PM

harlenm

02-21-2009, 10:33 PM

Why? That was easily the best line of the night.

I know. However much I did or didn't like the show. I give it an A+ and will watch it till it's last episode now.:up::up::D:D

FilmCritic3000

02-21-2009, 10:46 PM

Why? That was easily the best line of the night.

I agree, and I'm as liberal as they come.

Robin

02-21-2009, 10:52 PM

Echo's imprint seemed to jump from "rugged, tough, outdoorsy girl" to "damsel in distress" as soon as she was threatened,

I don't see it. She wasn't supposed to be an army ranger, she was supposed to be outdoorsy. Being comfortable in a raft is completely different from being hunted. Besides, she didn't just panic, she fled and made mostly rational decisions. I did cringe when she drank the water, though.

the Alpha character is acting inconsistently (he saved Echo originally so he could have her hunted? I dunno - maybe he's testing her.),

Except we don't know he had her hunted.

I really don't think those were her mother and father, as others have also hypothesized. They were both male and dressed in dress shirts and slacks. Unless Echo had gay male parents, I think they were officials of some sort, perhaps in her parent's house?

I think the second was a woman, too. The cut of her shirt looks feminine. They could still be some sort of officials, though. She wasn't wearing standard TV mom duds.

I just rewatched (I really really want to like this show, and I want it to work, damnit!) and had some more thoughts:

"Discern the dif": wants to be a jossism, but the guy is too much of a tool. Would have worked coming out of Buffy

why does retasking a satellite mean losing the first image? Weak.

"so, alpha's one of your creations?" Nice line!

"you poisoned me. And tried to shoot me with arrows." "Ok, maybe a little bit of harm." That one sounds like Joss.

He's trying to strangle her for real, I don't think this is a test.

"if it were up to me I'd put you in the attic"...what's the attic?

Why is everyone so bothered by the call girl thing? It's not that I'm all "rah rah prostitutes!", it just doesn't jump out at me as a major objection.

Sromkie

02-21-2009, 10:59 PM

I wasn't really on board with the show last week, but watched it again anyway. This week I liked even less. I will give it one more go, but I am really not feeling it. I'll probably TiVo the whole season and just auto-transfer it to my PC to be safe (just in case I hear it gets good, but I am not counting on it).

I did like the line about the gun, as well. It's too bad that was the only thing that stands out to me as positive.

JETarpon

02-21-2009, 11:06 PM

I don't see it. She wasn't supposed to be an army ranger, she was supposed to be outdoorsy. Being comfortable in a raft is completely different from being hunted. Besides, she didn't just panic, she fled and made mostly rational decisions. I did cringe when she drank the water, though.

I thought the great need for the canteen was silly. Hadn't she just come from the river? Wouldn't she have had something to drink there?

Lori

02-21-2009, 11:16 PM

"Four brothers, no Democrats." Almost deleted the SP after that line. Previews with next week's eye candy have me hanging in one more ep.

Why? That was easily the best line of the night.

I'm curious too. I'm a dem, thought it was funny.

I agree, and I'm as liberal as they come.

Me, too, and that line actually moved me to clap. Funny, funny stuff.

ElJay

02-22-2009, 12:03 AM

I feel like the show is doing too much at once. I don't understand why there haven't been just a few episodes of Echo doing her thing, but instead there's all this convoluted espionage crap going on.

Graymalkin

02-22-2009, 12:05 AM

I also thought the "Four brothers, no Democrats" line was funny, and I'm a lifelong Dem.

gchance

02-22-2009, 12:44 AM

I thought the great need for the canteen was silly. Hadn't she just come from the river? Wouldn't she have had something to drink there?

You don't want to ingest giardia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia). It's quite unpleasant.

Nobody's brought this up yet, but didn't the whole "hunt a human" plotline go out of fashion in the mid-80s? It's as bad as being stalked by a cougar while your mother gets amnesia twice. Well, almost.

Greg

Fleegle

02-22-2009, 01:02 AM

gchance

02-22-2009, 01:09 AM

You don't want to ingest giardia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia). It's quite unpleasant.

Nobody's brought this up yet, but didn't the whole "hunt a human" plotline go out of fashion in the mid-80s? It's as bad as being stalked by a cougar while your mother gets amnesia twice. Well, almost.

Greg

My first thought was "How very Most Dangerous Game of them.

Hah, yup! I was thinking, "Didn't a guy hunt David Banner once?" so I did a search.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0610923/

And the episode was based on "Most Dangerous Game" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game).

But hey, we have Reed Diamond, right? And he didn't die in the first episode!

Greg

DreadPirateRob

02-22-2009, 01:16 AM

They have a rescue/assault team, but the prick in the suit from the office leads the charge. WTF?

I take it he's the head of security or field operations, and as such, is probably ex-Special Forces or something. Given that, why wouldn't he lead the charge? It's not like he was still wearing a suit - he was in full tactical gear.

JYoung

02-22-2009, 01:31 AM

I was pretty annoyed that my cable company (Cox Orange County) transmitted this show in 720p -- windowboxed! Anyone else have the same problem?

(FWIW, the premiere last week was fine for me: 720p widescreen.)

Apparently, KTTV sent out the SD signal on the HD feed for this and Sarah Connor last night.
Haven't found a reason why yet.

You don't want to ingest giardia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia). It's quite unpleasant.

Nobody's brought this up yet, but didn't the whole "hunt a human" plotline go out of fashion in the mid-80s? It's as bad as being stalked by a cougar while your mother gets amnesia twice. Well, almost.

Greg

My first thought was "How very Most Dangerous Game of them.

Hah, yup! I was thinking, "Didn't a guy hunt David Banner once?" so I did a search.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0610923/

And the episode was based on "Most Dangerous Game" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game).

But hey, we have Reed Diamond, right? And he didn't die in the first episode!

Greg

It goes back farther than that. 1932 as a matter of fact (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0023238/).

I liked this episode better than the pilot but I'm not feeling the Jossy love for this right now.

I also don't know why people in this thread are assuming that Alpha is in a rational state of mind.
I get the distinct impression that he's not.

tgmii

02-22-2009, 08:26 AM

I thought the gun comment was pretty clever. I'll stop watching when those types of comments exceed the opposite on Boston Legal.

That should be around Dollhouse TNG: VII The Movie.

This show is going to slip into a formula very quick, however I didn't see the hunt coming, so hopefully they keep changing it up.

Tom

madscientist

02-22-2009, 09:33 AM

why does retasking a satellite mean losing the first image? Weak.Not that it matters much, but I think they lost the signal due to the mountains etc. They "retasked the satellite" because they lost the signal; they didn't lose the signal because they retasked the satellite.
Why is everyone so bothered by the call girl thing? It's not that I'm all "rah rah prostitutes!", it just doesn't jump out at me as a major objection.I actually find this one of the more interesting parts of the show. Hopefully Joss will do something with it that's worthy of the controversy. In an abstract sense I have no problems with people selling sex, if that's what they choose to do... in the concrete sense I have my doubts as to how often it's really their own choice.

IndyJones1023

02-22-2009, 09:59 AM

To Dems, the "brothers" line was a slam against Republicans.

To Republicans, the "brothers" line is a compliment!

How anyone could get upset at that line is beyond me.

jay_man2

02-22-2009, 10:04 AM

I thought the gun comment was funny too. But it seemed ill-timed or out of character. But it did bust up the tension of a tense sequence.

And the show just seemed to drag for me. When I start pushing the play button to bring up the buffer bar to see how much time's left, I know I'm losing or lost interest.

Lori

02-22-2009, 10:05 AM

Not that it matters much, but I think they lost the signal due to the mountains etc. They "retasked the satellite" because they lost the signal; they didn't lose the signal because they retasked the satellite.
I actually find this one of the more interesting parts of the show. Hopefully Joss will do something with it that's worthy of the controversy. In an abstract sense I have no problems with people selling sex, if that's what they choose to do... in the concrete sense I have my doubts as to how often it's really their own choice.

I think that it's pretty obvious that the actives are doing this willingly within the context of their assignments. The real question is if it's *Caroline's* choice. I think that we will find out that she consented to the possibility that she would have sex with clients as part of her contract.

However, there IS the issue of whether the actives can truly give consent...and, if the actual owner of the body (Caroline) has given consent, if it really matters if the active is competent to do so.

It's a really interesting issue, and full of all shades of grey. :)

gchance

02-22-2009, 10:58 AM

It goes back farther than that. 1932 as a matter of fact (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0023238/).

Which is why we were talking about The Most Dangerous Game, the origin of this, a story written in 1924.

But regardless of the source, it's still a cliche on TV at this point, people should be as outraged at this as they are with people getting amnesia. Even moreso because Joss Whedon wrote it.

But as I said to someone yesterday, I'm not a charter member of the Cult of Whedon, so what do I know.

Greg

madscientist

02-22-2009, 11:40 AM

I think that it's pretty obvious that the actives are doing this willingly within the context of their assignments. The real question is if it's *Caroline's* choice. I think that we will find out that she consented to the possibility that she would have sex with clients as part of her contract.

However, there IS the issue of whether the actives can truly give consent...and, if the actual owner of the body (Caroline) has given consent, if it really matters if the active is competent to do so.

It's a really interesting issue, and full of all shades of grey. :)Yes, exactly. It's too bad so many people are simply tuning out as soon as the "prostitution" angle shows up. I think this is a discussion worth listening to, on both sides.

cheesesteak

02-22-2009, 11:58 AM

I'm liking it so far. I have a kinda bad feeling about when the inevitable monster-of-the-week filler episodes that don't advance the overall story arc start to air, though. They might tax my interest.

IndyJones1023

02-22-2009, 12:10 PM

I'm not really interested in a show about a high priced whorehouse.

Peter000

02-22-2009, 12:15 PM

I'm not really interested in a show about a high priced whorehouse.
Yeah, they'd really have to lower their prices to keep my attention.

DouglasPHill

02-22-2009, 12:31 PM

Yeah, they'd really have to lower their prices to keep my attention.

lol :D

BitbyBlit

02-22-2009, 01:52 PM

I liked this episode way more than the 1st one. Eliza was even better in it, acting-wise.

Same here. I'm surprised so many people didn't like it. I was thinking that this episode would have made for a far better pilot. (Not counting the FBI scenes, which could have been replaced with showing Echo being imprinted and other Dollhouse operations.) I think they set up the Dollhouse a lot better in this episode than the previous.

jwjody

02-22-2009, 02:17 PM

I agree with Gunny, it was creepy seeing The Middleman play that part.

I don't think Alpha set that up to test Echo or anything. I think he's protecting her. Why would he have sent the information to Helo?

This just doesn't seem like a Joss show.

J

Mars Rocket

02-22-2009, 04:21 PM

Why is everyone so bothered by the call girl thing? It's not that I'm all "rah rah prostitutes!", it just doesn't jump out at me as a major objection.

I object not on moral grounds, but because it's a sleazy thing for the show to be about. In fact, I suspect that if the technology were possible that's what they would devolve into anyway - there's probably more money in providing high-class, personality-specific prostitutes than there is in providing hostage negotiators or whatever else they come up with. It would also make the business plan easier, make the tech's job easier, make the screening process easier...

BobB

02-22-2009, 04:34 PM

This show is going to slip into a formula very quick, however I didn't see the hunt coming, so hopefully they keep changing it up.

Given that it's a Weedon project, I doubt it's going to become too formulaic.

As for the comments about the sex-for-pay aspect of the show, I read in an interview a while back that it was Eliza Dushku who insisted that this be included, and made evident right from the beginning, because as others have pointed out, that is definitely a big part of what WOULD happen if the Dollhouse really existed.

Rob Helmerichs

02-22-2009, 04:41 PM

As for the comments about the sex-for-pay aspect of the show, I read in an interview a while back that it was Eliza Dushku who insisted that this be included, and made evident right from the beginning, because as others have pointed out, that is definitely a big part of what WOULD happen if the Dollhouse really existed.
And given the way it's been portrayed already (after only two episodes), I have no doubt that it will be a major factor in the storyline, and not in a positive or romanticized way.

dcheesi

02-22-2009, 04:42 PM

I object not on moral grounds, but because it's a sleazy thing for the show to be about. Not to nitpick, but isn't this sentence self-contradictory?

dtle

02-22-2009, 05:08 PM

Did people find Inara from Firefly objectionable? She was, after all, a "courtesan".

IndyJones1023

02-22-2009, 05:11 PM

Did people find Inara from Firefly objectionable? She was, after all, a "courtesan".

By her own volition.

madscientist

02-22-2009, 05:16 PM

I'm not really interested in a show about a high priced whorehouse.If that's all you're getting out of the show, then I do agree it's not for you.

There's always The Bunny Ranch on HBO :)

I object not on moral grounds, but because it's a sleazy thing for the show to be about. In fact, I suspect that if the technology were possible that's what they would devolve into anyway - there's probably more money in providing high-class, personality-specific prostitutes than there is in providing hostage negotiators or whatever else they come up with. It would also make the business plan easier, make the tech's job easier, make the screening process easier...I'm not so sure... a hostage negotiator is in a dangerous position but at least she knows who's on her side, and isn't programmed to like someone who might turn out to want to hurt her. Plus, screening out those kinds of weirdos seems a lot more difficult.

cheesesteak

02-22-2009, 05:42 PM

I just finished rewatching season 4 of Angel. Believe me, Whedon can be responsible for a turd.

laria

02-22-2009, 05:45 PM

"if it were up to me I'd put you in the attic"...what's the attic?
I got the impression that it was like being boxed on BSG. :)

KyleLC

02-22-2009, 06:40 PM

Not to nitpick, but isn't this sentence self-contradictory?I was thinking the same thing.

Einselen

02-22-2009, 06:49 PM

There's always The Bunny Ranch on HBO :)

Cathouse, though the place is about the World Famous Bunny Ranch.

balboa dave

02-22-2009, 07:29 PM

I really don't understand the criticisms of this show. So many complainers seem to have an idea of what this show was supposed to be, and get upset when they guessed wrong. Whatever. The first episode had a lot of information in it, and I liked it a lot better the second time I watched it. Watching this episode right after the first gave me the feeling of a two hour series premiere, and I think gives a very good introduction to this world.

The Dollhouse is an amoral corporation. The dolls are their product. Their priority is protecting them. Their dolls might engage in sex, but the experience to the customer is not as a prostitute, but as a part of their definition of the perfect woman, or man as the case warrants. But sex is the least of the dangers. The dollhouse knew that Echo would be hunted. It was in the contract. They charged extra for it, and threatened penalties if Echo was harmed too much. The twist was the (middleman)customer went after the handler, who was supposed to step in after the contracted amount of time.

The tension in the stories derive from the legality of the process and the organic nature of the dolls. It's not clear if the outside world finds the Dollhouse just too impossible to believe, or just likes the idea so much that it is willing to ignore it, but the result is just a single agent is trying to uncover it. So far, he seems like the only good guy. The process for imprinting the dolls is not perfect, and while there seems to be plenty of safeguards built in for the dolls protection (well actually, company property), other things seem to be going wrong.

A lot of people seem to be trying to compare this show to Christian Slater's My own Worst Enemy, which was actually based on Jekyll and Hyde, but I find the dolls have a lot more in common with Aeon Flux, who was given missions to run, but in her off-time, was in a state of continual bliss.

Graymalkin

02-22-2009, 07:35 PM

Robin

02-22-2009, 07:42 PM

This just doesn't seem like a Joss show.

Is this the first time there's been no scoobie gang? It seems like that's the major difference. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were all about the group and the group dynamics. This is anything but.

Not that it matters much, but I think they lost the signal due to the mountains etc. They "retasked the satellite" because they lost the signal; they didn't lose the signal because they retasked the satellite.

Ah, ok, I didn't think they'd lost the first one altogether, just that they were getting a crappy signal. As someone who's currently struggling with both DTV and OTA I can relate. ;) I thought the tech dude had a good signal, the problem was just with the handler in the van?

The dollhouse knew that Echo would be hunted. It was in the contract. They charged extra for it, and threatened penalties if Echo was harmed too much.

I completely and totally disagree. The extra charge was for white-water rafting, rock climbing, and hunting, not being hunted.

Sromkie

02-22-2009, 07:45 PM

The dollhouse knew that Echo would be hunted. It was in the contract. They charged extra for it, and threatened penalties if Echo was harmed too much. The twist was the (middleman)customer went after the handler, who was supposed to step in after the contracted amount of time.

Ah, excellent point there. I had forgotten that bit about the extra clauses in the contract.

That's not what I took away from the scene with the contract at all. I think that the extra clause was because the client was taking Echo with him to do activities that were inherently dangerous, but not designed to be lethal (e.g., he was taking her rock climbing and white water rafting. That sounds like enough for a clause. With the Dollhouse so concerned for the safety of their "actives," I highly doubt we were supposed to believe that they authorized the Echo hunting.

The guy he hired to go after her handler was to delay him from responding once he realized that echo was in trouble.

Graymalkin

02-22-2009, 07:45 PM

Einselen

02-22-2009, 08:16 PM

I completely and totally disagree. The extra charge was for white-water rafting, rock climbing, and hunting, not being hunted.

H'mm, you may be right.

Damn, I'm flip-flopping all over the place. I should quit now.

I completely agree with Robin. If she was going to be hunted then why would techie guy get all worried about the huge elevation in vitals? He would have known it was probably that time of the "date" and consider it normal.

Also why would they go to great lengths to protect just her in the previous episode but then let her be hunted and shot at by a bow. Also if you are the guy, you are getting off at hunting, shooting and killing her, not just the hunt in which you won't win, where is the fun in that?

vikingguy

02-22-2009, 08:25 PM

Better than the first episode. I just hope the show continues to get better as the season goes on.

Doh

02-22-2009, 08:45 PM

I don't know if I'll be able to articulate why I don't like the call girl aspects, but it's not just because it's prostitution (I didn't have a problem with Inara), or about whether Caroline/Echo can give consent, it's about having a show where we're repeatedly told that a (every?) man's "dream girl" is someone who was artificially ginned up for a weekend of fun by taking a hot body and putting into it a temporary consciousness designed for the sole purpose of pleasing the man. It's literally taking women and turning them from people into objects for the purpose of pleasing men. Now I don't dispute that might be what would happen if there was a dollhouse, but that doesn't mean I want to watch a show about it every week.

All that said, I thought the line about "4 brothers, none of them Democrats" was great.

dswallow

02-22-2009, 09:02 PM

Lori

02-22-2009, 09:17 PM

MarkofT

02-23-2009, 12:50 AM

Why is everyone so bothered by the call girl thing? It's not that I'm all "rah rah prostitutes!", it just doesn't jump out at me as a major objection.Because they are expecting more then what they already knows exists in the world. You can pick up a call girl in any town in the world, if you ask the right people the right questions. But why would the great Joss Whedon create a TV show about a whorehouse if they are so common? There has to be something more and they are not happy with the quantity of more they are currently seeing. To them, the prostitution story lines are just take up time that is better spent exploring the more they are expecting.

Some people just can't manage to deal with the wait needed for proper story telling. You setup little things here and there so by the end, there is a fully fleshed out final scene. To do otherwise is to invite them to criticize how the ended came out of nowhere.

Lori

02-23-2009, 12:53 AM

Because they are expecting more then what they already knows exists in the world. You can pick up a call girl in any town in the world, if you ask the right people the right questions. But why would the great Joss Whedon create a TV show about a whorehouse if they are so common? There has to be something more and they are not happy with the quantity of more they are currently seeing. To them, the prostitution story lines are just take up time that is better spent exploring the more they are expecting.

Some people just can't manage to deal with the wait needed for proper story telling. You setup little things here and there so by the end, there is a fully fleshed out final scene. To do otherwise is to invite them to criticize how the ended came out of nowhere.

Then I am watching a completely different show because, so far, I have seen exactly zero 'prostitution storylines'.

JETarpon

02-23-2009, 01:42 AM

Then I am watching a completely different show because, so far, I have seen exactly zero 'prostitution storylines'.

Up until the dude kicked her out of bed, that's what it looked like we had this time.

NJChris

02-23-2009, 01:57 AM

Jeez.. can't we get past this prostitution thing? It's part of the "job" among other things. So what?

Bai Shen

02-23-2009, 10:59 AM

I feel like the show is doing too much at once. I don't understand why there haven't been just a few episodes of Echo doing her thing, but instead there's all this convoluted espionage crap going on.

On the Dollhouse site there's a link to an interview with Joss. He talks about how the first bunch of episodes are all about things going wrong for the Dollhouse. It wasn't completely intended to be that way, but that's how the filming, etc worked out. IIRC, this ep was originally scheduled to be the eighth.

Bai Shen

02-23-2009, 11:08 AM

The Dollhouse is an amoral corporation. The dolls are their product. Their priority is protecting them. Their dolls might engage in sex, but the experience to the customer is not as a prostitute, but as a part of their definition of the perfect woman, or man as the case warrants. But sex is the least of the dangers. The dollhouse knew that Echo would be hunted. It was in the contract. They charged extra for it, and threatened penalties if Echo was harmed too much. The twist was the (middleman)customer went after the handler, who was supposed to step in after the contracted amount of time.

I don't think so. I think they charged extra due to the fact that the trip involved a lot of risky activities. Rock climbing, white water rafting, bow hunting, etc. They didn't know he was going to hunt her.

ElJay

02-23-2009, 11:41 AM

On the Dollhouse site there's a link to an interview with Joss. He talks about how the first bunch of episodes are all about things going wrong for the Dollhouse. It wasn't completely intended to be that way, but that's how the filming, etc worked out. IIRC, this ep was originally scheduled to be the eighth.

Thanks for the info, that explains a lot of things. I probably should just stop watching now because it sounds like with all its problems maybe this show just wasn't meant to be.

Doh

02-23-2009, 12:20 PM

I would say that it's about taking people and turning them from people into objects for the purpose of pleasing clients.

That our main focus is on Echo is irrelevant. As Doug points out, there are men in those freaky beds, and they are likely having adventures with *all sorts* of wealthy women. Or men. :)

Seriously? You think the show would be airing if the main character couldn't rock that silver t-shirt?

unicorngoddess

02-23-2009, 01:07 PM

Then I am watching a completely different show because, so far, I have seen exactly zero 'prostitution storylines'.

I think it's their main service. Or at least this is what Echo seems to be popular for. We've got the first episode and then the flashbacks from this episode, plus the guy that purchased her this episode along with the explanation given that these actives make great companions because they can be anybody and then have their memories wiped afterwards. They imprint her with a personality, she spends time with the guy (who is knowingly using her) and she ends up falling in love...they then take her back in and have her memory wiped clean.

Anyway, I like it. I determined halfway through this episode that I really do like the show...then I realized because I had that realization that Fox will soon be cancling it I'm sure. :(

voripteth

02-23-2009, 01:28 PM

I love Buffy, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. After two episodes I have a hard time feeling the "Josh-ness" in Dollhouse. Where is the quirky humor, beloved characters or intriguing dialog? I hope it will all come but if we have to wait too long, the show may not be given the chance.

Episode 1: Bad pacing and too much exposition made the episode drag. Where was the fun?

Episode 2: Action was interesting at first but the hunt felt so cliche. I agree that the switch between competitive athlete to damsel in distress was poorly handled. It feels inconsistent that at point there is minimal surveillance and the next there is a huge strike team. Are the dolls valuable or can any schmoe be programmed?

I'll give it a few more episodes but it's off to a rocky start, IMHO

Einselen

02-23-2009, 01:33 PM

People are not hiring prostitutes. How many of you hire a prostitute and take them out to parties and dinner? (some people will but most will hire the person do their thing and person leaves). They are hiring a companion for their activities and then sex is just an added bonus.

IndyJones1023

02-23-2009, 01:39 PM

They are hiring a companion for their activities and then sex is just an added bonus.

That's the exact definition of an escort service. And we all know what that really means....

Einselen

02-23-2009, 01:42 PM

That's the exact definition of an escort service. And we all know what that really means....

Exactly you enter into a contract for companionship and sex is up to the two consenting adults who are attracted to each other, you are not paying for sex as that is illegal in most of the US. :D

Einselen

02-23-2009, 01:53 PM

The other thing I see is that I don't think you can program one to be a prostitute, I can understand the training aspects of knowing how to fight, fly a plane, etc. but you can't train someone a belief (going that way I don't think you can train someone to be a certain religion, you can give them the knowledge of it, but if they follow and practice that is different).

Going from there I also believe you can not program someone to be attracted to a certain type of person as it takes a bunch of factors

“There are several types of chemistry required in romantic relationships,” according to Mark B. Kristal, professor of psychology in the UB College of Arts and Sciences. “It seems like a variety of different neurochemical processes and external stimuli have to click in the right complex and the right sequence for someone to fall in love.”

Source: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2007/02/13/romantic-attraction-boiled-down-to-brain-chemistry/

With both those points made it would be impossible to sell someone with what you are looking for in skills that will also sleep with you.

Now with all that said I understand this is Sci-Fi (Fi meaning fiction) however not all of it has to be fiction and I think a Dollhouse type company is possible (I also think Skynet is possible) so it has to have some factual support behind it right? :D

BobB

02-23-2009, 02:17 PM

The other thing I see is that I don't think you can program one to be a prostitute, I can understand the training aspects of knowing how to fight, fly a plane, etc. but you can't train someone a belief (going that way I don't think you can train someone to be a certain religion, you can give them the knowledge of it, but if they follow and practice that is different).

Going from there I also believe you can not program someone to be attracted to a certain type of person as it takes a bunch of factors

Well, this show does require a fair amount of suspension of disbelief, but I think one of the premises that they have made fairly explicit is that the Dolls are not trained in anything, they get their skills by having the memories/personas/experiences of multiple actual people, who have the skills required for the job, selectively imprinted into their psyches. I don't see why one of those could not be a professional escort when the job includes some intimate companionship.

The Dolls do, or believe, what they are programmed to because they have those elements of the original inside them.

That said, however - yes, it's science fiction, don't look too deeply under the hood!

LooseWiring

02-23-2009, 02:24 PM

I don't see why one of those could not be a professional escort when the job includes some intimate companionship.

I think the reason the "Dolls" are so sought after is that they are not escorts nor are they imprinted with such.

I assume that, at the time of their imprinting, their personalities are crafted so that they do not get with their "client" because they are being paid but because their imprinting drives them to be irresistably attracted to their clients.

This would explain why people would pay so much for the Dolls "services". They aren't looking for an impersonal quickie. They are paying to be with their perfect woman.

BobB

02-23-2009, 02:31 PM

I think the reason the "Dolls" are so sought after is that they are not escorts nor are they imprinted with such.

I assume that, at the time of their imprinting, their personalities are crafted so that they do not get with their "client" because they are being paid but because their imprinting drives them to be irresistably attracted to their clients.

This would explain why people would pay so much for the Dolls "services". They aren't looking for an impersonal quickie. They are paying to be with their perfect woman.

I agree with you on the emotional side. But that wouldn't preclude them from also being programmed with a few professional-level skills. ;)

IndyJones1023

02-23-2009, 02:32 PM

Like that tongue trick, apparently.

LooseWiring

02-23-2009, 02:37 PM

Women can have "skills" without being professionals. Some women are just born talented.

/wink @ joules

unicorngoddess

02-23-2009, 02:38 PM

I think the reason the "Dolls" are so sought after is that they are not escorts nor are they imprinted with such.

I assume that, at the time of their imprinting, their personalities are crafted so that they do not get with their "client" because they are being paid but because their imprinting drives them to be irresistably attracted to their clients.

This would explain why people would pay so much for the Dolls "services". They aren't looking for an impersonal quickie. They are paying to be with their perfect woman.

I agree...but still it doesn't change what's going on even if the active doesn't know what's going on. The guys are paying a service to get a woman.

IndyJones1023

02-23-2009, 02:41 PM

Women can have "skills" without being professionals. Some women are just born talented.

/wink @ joules

True, but since the actives are "children" when, un, inactive - they must be imprinted with sex skills for an assignment.

LooseWiring

02-23-2009, 02:51 PM

True, but since the actives are "children" when, un, inactive - they must be imprinted with sex skills for an assignment.

I would hope so. :p It would suck to find(hire) the woman of your dreams only to find she was lousy in the sack.

I was just trying to say that I doubt they used prostitutes for templates. Nymphos, maybe, but not pros.

Bai Shen

02-23-2009, 02:57 PM

Are the dolls valuable or can any schmoe be programmed?

I think anyone can be programmed, but there's a lengthy initial setup/configuration. So it's not a simple grab someone and hook 'em up deal.

Einselen

02-23-2009, 04:22 PM

Well, this show does require a fair amount of suspension of disbelief, but I think one of the premises that they have made fairly explicit is that the Dolls are not trained in anything, they get their skills by having the memories/personas/experiences of multiple actual people, who have the skills required for the job, selectively imprinted into their psyches. I don't see why one of those could not be a professional escort when the job includes some intimate companionship.

I understand that, which also does bring up a question I keep forgetting to ask, but first my response to this.

Yeah I now lost my response... so anyway to the question brought up.

I am wondering what theories people have on where these memories/personas/experiences come from. Do they come from actives before they are initially wiped and then all together these are combines to get the desired "ultimate" for the task at hand. Do they come from other individuals outside the doll house and those people are some how tricked so a copy can be made? Is it a combo? What could it be?

IndyJones1023

02-23-2009, 04:25 PM

The imprints could come from (paid) volunteers, whether they know the true reason for the imprint or not.

dswallow

02-23-2009, 04:28 PM

I understand that, which also does bring up a question I keep forgetting to ask, but first my response to this.

Yeah I now lost my response... so anyway to the question brought up.

I am wondering what theories people have on where these memories/personas/experiences come from. Do they come from actives before they are initially wiped and then all together these are combines to get the desired "ultimate" for the task at hand. Do they come from other individuals outside the doll house and those people are some how tricked so a copy can be made? Is it a combo? What could it be?

Multiple imprints are merged to attain the desired personality/attributes to imprint upon the active.

Einselen

02-23-2009, 04:37 PM

Multiple imprints are merged to attain the desired personality/attributes to imprint upon the active.

Yes but what are the theories of where these imprints come from? BitTorrent? :p

BobB

02-23-2009, 04:39 PM

Women can have "skills" without being professionals. Some women are just born talented.

No question about that, as with any ability some have more natural talent than others. But like learning to play any instrument, even great natural talent can be brought to a higher level through training and practice.

Einselen

02-23-2009, 04:44 PM

No question about that, as with any ability some have more natural talent than others. But like learning to play any instrument, even great natural talent can be brought to a higher level through training and practice.

Do you use this as a pick up line?

"I swear I am only letting you do this to me so you can become better, not because I like it."

Gregor

02-23-2009, 07:14 PM

After this one, I am still not compelled. I'll try it again. But it's really blah so far.

I'm hoping there's some backstory coming or something to tie all the eps together.

What will probably happen is Fox will kill this off and renew the dumbass Digger cartoons being shown in the Nascar prerace shows.

busyba

02-23-2009, 07:58 PM

Einselen

02-23-2009, 08:07 PM

Google "brainwashing" sometime.

Semi-valid point. It might be probable hard to really track that information and at the same time media probably portrays it more severe then it really is (if it is probable).

madscientist

02-24-2009, 12:31 AM

Women can have "skills" without being professionals. Some women are just born talented.That's what she told you? Hey, I have this bridge I can let you have for a great price...

:p

Lori

02-24-2009, 07:28 AM

Up until the dude kicked her out of bed, that's what it looked like we had this time.

No, as far as the *storyline* goes, what we had this time was a guy taking his new girl camping.

At a meta level, there's all sorts of stuff to discuss here, but reducing the show to "whorehouse" is overly simplistic. If I pay someone to fix my roof, and, in the spirit of bad porn movies everywhere, wind up having sex with him, well...is he a prostitute?

The clients pay for a service that may or MAY NOT include sex. I am certain that the actives are not imprinted with specific instructions...they are just personalities, and some of those personalities may be more likely to have a physical relationship within the context of the story. Some may not. Our hostage negotiator didn't seem all that interested in having sex with the dad, for example.

In any case, I am sure that Joss will delve into this a little more as the season progresses.

alpacaboy

02-24-2009, 12:32 PM

They're easily found by guys needing a high priced hooker, but the FBI (-Ballard) doesn't believe they exist because they can't find them.

Maybe they have Hannibal screen their clients at Mr Lee's Chinese Laundromat.

jking

02-24-2009, 01:12 PM

Unfortunate that this show is probably going to end up cancelled, because I am really liking it. Comparing this to a show like Fringe, to me there is no comparison. I'm not saying this is the best show ever, but Fringe for example, I think the writers are trying to create this really smart show, but they just aren't smart enough to do it, and the show is a jumbled mess as a result. This show, all the elements seem to be there. I just hope they are given a chance.

busyba

02-24-2009, 06:07 PM

If I pay someone to fix my roof, and, in the spirit of bad porn movies everywhere, wind up having sex with him, well...is he a prostitute?

No, just very very lucky. :)

Fleegle

02-24-2009, 07:12 PM

No, as far as the *storyline* goes, what we had this time was a guy taking his new girl camping.

At a meta level, there's all sorts of stuff to discuss here, but reducing the show to "whorehouse" is overly simplistic. If I pay someone to fix my roof, and, in the spirit of bad porn movies everywhere, wind up having sex with him, well...is he a prostitute?

The clients pay for a service that may or MAY NOT include sex. I am certain that the actives are not imprinted with specific instructions...they are just personalities, and some of those personalities may be more likely to have a physical relationship within the context of the story. Some may not. Our hostage negotiator didn't seem all that interested in having sex with the dad, for example.

In any case, I am sure that Joss will delve into this a little more as the season progresses.

If he's being paid by the hour and if "on the clock" while you're sexin him up, then yes.

rrrobinsonjr

02-24-2009, 07:48 PM

So many people still care about this show? It's awful.

BeanMeScot

02-24-2009, 08:49 PM

I really liked this episode. The hunting a human thing is a bit trite but it worked in this context. I agree this is not "Best Little Whorehouse". They are imprinting the girl as someone who would be very attracted to the guy who is paying for her imprint. Whether they have sex or not is between them. The fact that she is being created as a "perfect" date makes that more likely but it isn't a given.

BeanMeScot

02-24-2009, 09:36 PM

What is the deal with the Shoulder to the Grindstone thing? Richard did that to her and she did it to her handler. Then she did it again after the imprinting was supposedly removed.

Amnesia

02-24-2009, 09:51 PM

Then she did it again after the imprinting was supposedly removed.Somehow she's retaining information after imprinting/erasure.

Fleegle

02-24-2009, 10:09 PM

Somehow she's retaining information after imprinting/erasure.

Something that Alpha was apparently able to do.

busyba

02-24-2009, 10:28 PM

Then she did it again after the imprinting was supposedly removed.

That's what people in the writing biz call "foreshadowing". ;)

WinBear

02-25-2009, 08:32 AM

Somehow she's retaining information after imprinting/erasure.

The show is calling that a "compositing event" meaning the doll is compositing across multiple imprints.

BeanMeScot

02-25-2009, 09:10 AM

But did Echo learn that from Richard (the guy trying to kill her this episode) or Alpha or the imprint?

IndyJones1023

02-25-2009, 09:27 AM

She clearly picked it up from the hunter guy. The important issue is that she's retaining memories when they should be wiped.

Mars Rocket

02-25-2009, 09:58 AM

On the Dollhouse site there's a link to an interview with Joss. He talks about how the first bunch of episodes are all about things going wrong for the Dollhouse. It wasn't completely intended to be that way, but that's how the filming, etc worked out. IIRC, this ep was originally scheduled to be the eighth.

Dushku was recently quoted saying that the first 5 episodes were standalone and that the Whedon magic would begin to surface in ep 6.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-target,24147/

mitchb2

02-25-2009, 10:19 AM

I don't expect this show to last.

NJChris

02-25-2009, 10:43 AM

I do.

IndyJones1023

02-25-2009, 10:44 AM

I don't.

Alfer

02-25-2009, 10:46 AM

Episode 2 kept most of the premieres audience....should be interesting to see if that trend continues.

However I don't think it will make it past one season.

DevdogAZ

02-25-2009, 12:16 PM

"if it were up to me I'd put you in the attic"...what's the attic?
The closed captioning had it as "Attic" with a capital "A." We know from Trainman that captioners don't always have access to the script so this may have just been a style thing by the captioner, but my guess is that the Attic is what they call the place they put Actives that don't work out. It could simply be the name they give to putting the original imprint back into the Active and releasing them into the general population, or it could be something more sinister, like an area for Actives who never get sent on missions and therefore are perpetually in their childlike state.
Same here. I'm surprised so many people didn't like it. I was thinking that this episode would have made for a far better pilot. (Not counting the FBI scenes, which could have been replaced with showing Echo being imprinted and other Dollhouse operations.) I think they set up the Dollhouse a lot better in this episode than the previous.
I also thought this episode would have worked better as the pilot. There were just a few lines that served as exposition, but that's really all that were necessary.

I'm liking the show, but not expecting too much more than what I've already seen. I'm not a Whedon fanboy, so I don't really have certain expectations of what the show is supposed to be.

There was a bunch of talk at the beginning of the thread about her parents? Did I miss a scene? What was that? I remember Echo having a memory/hallucination of dead bodies in a shower and a silhouette of Alpha with a bloody knife, but I don't remember anything that could have been construed as Alpha killing Echo's parents.

lambertman

02-25-2009, 12:24 PM

I do.

Curious, based on what?

Einselen

02-25-2009, 12:37 PM

I would say it would last if it wasn't already in the time block where shows go to die.

IndyJones1023

02-25-2009, 12:39 PM

At this point, I'd say sci-fi shows' only hope is on the actual Sci-Fi channel. That is, outside of some major fluke hit (Lost, Fringe - hmmm, maybe it's only JJ Abrams shows that can survive).

DevdogAZ

02-25-2009, 12:41 PM

IDSmoker

02-25-2009, 01:04 PM

At this point, I'd say sci-fi shows' only hope is on the actual Sci-Fi channel. That is, outside of some major fluke hit (Lost, Fringe - hmmm, maybe it's only JJ Abrams shows that can survive).
On the Sci-Fi channel?!?!?!

Right, maybe they can schedule it between the 'reality-based' ghost-busters show and professional wrestling...

:rolleyes:

Rob Helmerichs

02-25-2009, 02:59 PM

I wonder if the budget for an episode of Dollhouse is more or less than the budget for an entire season of the average Sci-Fi Channel series?

Probably not too far off, either way...

sburnside1

02-25-2009, 05:56 PM

Is it a bad sign if Amk Acker is already finding other work?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i03e9df1ef7d2112b3a7795459abcbabe

Additionally, Brad Henke has been cast in the Cerone pilot, Amy Acker has joined ABC's "Happy Town," and LL Cool J has closed his deal to co-star on CBS' "NCIS: Legend."

The untitled Ricky Blitt comedy, from WBTV, centers on a guy in his thirties (Olsen) who hasn't quite grown up and finds himself torn between his needy best friend and the newfound love of his life and her teen kids. Olsen ("Brothers & Sisters") is repped by UTA.

The UMS-produced "Mercy" is a comedic drama about three nurses bound together in friendship. Up-and-comer Schilling, repped by Gersh, will play the central role of Veronica Callahan, who works as nurse at Mercy Hospital after a tour in Iraq.

The Cerone project, from ABC Studios, centers on a low-level detective (Jimmy Wolk) whose genius 11-year-old brother (Goyo) helps him solve crimes. Canadian-born Goyo is repped by WMA and Thruline.

Henke will play the detective's partner and best friend.

In "Happy Town," a small-town murder mystery, Acker will play the wife of the lead, cop Tommy Conroy (Geoff Stults). She is repped by APA and Insight.

The backdoor pilot for the "NCIS" spinoff, from CBS Par, will air as a two-part episode of "NCIS" this spring.

LL Cool J will play Special Agent Sam Hanna, a former Navy SEAL who works in the undercover unit of NCIS in Los Angeles. The rapper-actor is repped by Endeavor and manager Jason Barrett.

Amnesia

02-25-2009, 06:06 PM

Is it a bad sign if Amk Acker is already finding other work?What are you talking about? Amy Acker is only a guest star on Dollhouse.

wedgecon

02-25-2009, 06:07 PM

jones07

02-26-2009, 01:26 PM

At this point, I'd say sci-fi shows' only hope is on the actual Sci-Fi channel.

+1.............sadly :(

sburnside1

02-26-2009, 02:09 PM

oops, misspelled Amy.

I would have though her Character, being the doctor and all, would have been pretty important.

And as to the Guest star.. I think all but 4 cast members of "The Office" have been guest stars. Some for all 5 seasons.

DreadPirateRob

02-26-2009, 02:11 PM

I don't think Amy's role in Dollhouse was ever going to be long term, or was it just intermittent?

Even if she appears in every, or close to every, episode, she's usually on screen for a minute or less, so it's not like they couldn't work around that.

Hunter Green

02-28-2009, 09:06 AM

I liked this one better than the first episode. The hunt-a-human thing didn't bother me: maybe I haven't been overexposed to the cliché but I mostly took that as being a flaw in the client (i.e., it's him who is out of touch with the times) rather than with the writer.

And I find it kind of sad that sexuality is such a hot-button issue where so many other things aren't. Everything a doll does is exactly as much of a consent issue, exactly as much of a violation, as everything else they do. If they've consented in advance they've consented to all of it, and if they haven't, they haven't. I think I would be more worried about the chance that I might be the victim of, or perpetrator of, unjustified violence, than that I would end up in bed with someone, myself.

Johnny Dancing

02-28-2009, 01:14 PM

But haven't the ratings for the first two eps been pleasantly surprising for Fox? I thought the first ep did much better than the former occupant of that timeslot, and if this ep held most of the viewers from the pilot, I'd say that's a pretty good sign. Fox didn't put the show on Friday because they knew it would suck. They put the show on Friday because they knew it would likely struggle, and Friday is the day with the lowest expectations so that they can keep a struggling show around longer than if it were on another day.

The first episode placed 3rd behind supernanny and flashpoint. But it did beat Friday Night Lights - http://www.tvweek.com/ratings/021609.pdf

So far, I don't like the show and I doubt it will last more than the rest of this year. It seems they are jumping into all kinds of plot twists and turns before the show establishes a baseline of what it is about.

Also, the super outdoor women instant transformation to clueless damsel in distress thing almost got an on the spot season pass cancellation.

It's funny in these timed head start before I kill you scenes the runner just doesn't run a hundred yards off to the side and hide in some rocks and bushes while the chaser scampers on by. I guess a person hiding safely wouldn't make for good TV....

Seems Joss is trying to go mainstream with this one.

Lori

02-28-2009, 01:40 PM

Seems Josh is trying to go mainstream with this one.

Joss.

Robin

02-28-2009, 04:08 PM

JYoung

02-28-2009, 05:05 PM

Did anyone else not think she went through some huge transformation from outdoor girl to damsel in distress?

I mean yes, she was clearly stressed, nervous, and frightened. But I don't see that as inconsistent with being "outdoorsy". She didn't panic, she didn't do anything stupid, and when she met up with her handler she was able to save them both.

I do think that drinking the water was dumb.

However, I do think people are really nitpicking when complaining about the transformation from outdoor girl to damsel in distress.

Just because you're an accomplished outdoor person doesn't mean you won't feel fear when an armed hunter is chasing you and you're unarmed.

madscientist

03-01-2009, 01:13 AM

Seriously. She didn't really seem that hard-core to me. She was competitive and she liked being active and outdoors. But, she'd never hunted before (at least not with a bow). I don't think being scared and running when some guy, who's obviously a lot bigger and stronger than you, says he's going to kill you with an arrow after a 5 minute head-start is ridiculously out of character!

And, why not drink the water? Who would imagine that someone would break into the cabin and drug the canteen on the off chance that you might drink it? That kind of thing only happens on TV. Of course this is TV. But still.

Robin

03-01-2009, 09:56 AM

I agree. I disliked the drinking the water because it was obvious to the viewer, not because I thought it was a boneheaded move for the character.

Hunter Green

03-01-2009, 10:16 AM

Did anyone else not think she went through some huge transformation from outdoor girl to damsel in distress?
Absolutely didn't. The gulf between "we might hit a rock in the river (but I know how to deal with that)" and "the guy I just slept with is a psychopath who wants to murder me" is so huge that anyone who suggests confidence in one has to apply to the other has been desensitized by bad TV.
And, why not drink the water? Who would imagine that someone would break into the cabin and drug the canteen on the off chance that you might drink it? That kind of thing only happens on TV. Of course this is TV. But still.
It's also pretty easy to brush off the chance that she's really thirsty -- heck, she just had sweaty sex and ran for her life through dry terrain for a while. But the real clincher is, she had no reason at the time she drank it to think she wasn't now in a safe haven. What I think is corny is not that she drank the water, but that he would have poisoned it in the first place.