UK TiVo on 110v

[rezabelady]

Does anyone power their UK TiVo through 110v? I am moving equipment around and it looks like it will be easiest to plug the TiVo into a 4-way adaptor for 2-pin plugs that is running through a step-down converter for some 110v equipment I have.

I'm guessing it's not a problem (did a search and saw a thread which said the US Series 1 TiVo - the same as UK model? - were compatible with 240v) but interesting to know if anyone else does the same.

[blindlemon]

The label on the back of the TiVo by the power socket says 100-240VAC and the PSU is the same in US and UK TiVos so I'm guessing the it should be OK.... :)

[rezabelady]

Managed to free up a 3 pin socket for the TiVo in the end, but tried it briefly on 110v without a hitch so am confident I could move it over if I need the plug for something else.

[DeadKenny]

Seems a bit of an extreme solution anyway to go with a step-down 110v supply for a 240v device in a 240v country :D. I'd wonder how "clean" the supply would be.

Besides that, the US 2 pin route will rob you of the earth connection (I'm sure the Tivo should legally be earthed given the exposed PSU inside and the metal case). Not to mention the plugs are terrible hazards for being knocked partially out of the socket.

One of the best things about the UK is the 3 pin socket and plug design. Bulky they may be, but I feel far safer with them than those from many other countries :D

If you run out of sockets, just invest in an extra or replacement gangway.

[bigwold]

Besides that, the US 2 pin route will rob you of the earth connection
UK TiVos come with a standard "figure of eight" two core connection hence no earth!

[iankb]

One of the best things about the UK is the 3 pin socket and plug design. Bulky they may be, but I feel far safer with them than those from many other countriesBut then you're far less likely to die of electrocution from a 110V supply than from a 240V supply.

[mutant_matt2]

"It ain't the volts that'll get you, it's the amps" ;) :)

[DeadKenny]

UK TiVos come with a standard "figure of eight" two core connection hence no earth!
Good point!

Surprising considering the construction and materials of the box, especially the exposed PSU inside. One wire comes lose and touches the metal case... !:eek:. Surely it wouldn't have passed EU/UK safety regs?

[mutant_matt2]

There is a concept of (Class II) Double Insulated devices, but I have no idea if the TiVo claims to be such (I would be surprised, as it is indeed, just a PC really).

But, why would a wire come loose, it's a consumer device that nobody is ever going to open up, right... ;) :D

Matt <all the usual mods ;) :D >

[bigwold]

They have the CE mark and also the double insulated symbol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Double_insulation_symbol.svgon the back. Not sure how they qualify as double insulated - from wikipedia:

A Class II or double insulated electrical appliance is one which has been designed in such a way that it does not require a safety connection to electrical earth (US: ground).

The basic requirement is that no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing. This is usually achieved at least in part by having two layers of insulating material surrounding live parts or by using reinforced insulation.

In Europe, a double insulated appliance must be labelled "Class II", "double insulated" or bear the double insulation symbol (a square inside another square).

[rezabelady]

Seems a bit of an extreme solution anyway to go with a step-down 110v supply for a 240v device in a 240v country :D. I'd wonder how "clean" the supply would be.

The step-down is already there for some 110v equipment I have.. there is a 5-way adaptor for 2-pin plugs connected to it, of which 3 were free so I thought it would be better to use one of them rather than add another splitter onto the other fully loaded 6-way adaptor for 3-pin plugs that I also have behind the TV.

[Pete77]

One of the best things about the UK is the 3 pin socket and plug design. Bulky they may be, but I feel far safer with them than those from many other countries :D

How do I break the news to you.

Having just been on a three week long trip right across the USA from West to East in October and having had to buy a US to UK power socket adapter from a US shop I can assure you that most US power sockets are now three pins including an earth pin. The US like Europe does however allow only two prong plugs that omit the earth prong for products that do not have an earth wire (i.e. 2 core and not 3 core wired). In the UK the earth prong is always used as a device for opening the shutters to protect kiddies on the live and neutral socket holes and this is why all UK plugs have to have three prongs. The US and European three hole sockets either do not have shuttering at all or at least not controlled by the Earth socket.

The UK is unusual in also having a fuse in the plug as well as in the fuse box (Europe and the US do not have a fuse in the plug) but I suspect this is a somewhat belt and braces approach and probably unnecessary with a modern circuit breaker type fuse box. It may be a worthwhile safety precaution with old fashioned fuse boxes that rely on an actual fuse wire to blow.

In my experience earthed household appliances seem to not only have metal exteriors but also require direct contact by the end user to operate their On/Off switch. Whereas a Tivo has no on/off swith and does not provide for any contact by the end user once set up in order to operate it......

[Ian_m]

The UK is unusual in also having a fuse in the plug as well as in the fuse box (Europe and the US do not have a fuse in the plug) but I suspect this is a somewhat belt and braces approach and probably unnecessary with a modern circuit breaker type fuse box. It may be a worthwhile safety precaution with old fashioned fuse boxes that rely on an actual fuse wire to blow.Why do you think the death rate due to electrocution (and fire) is 8 times higher in US than UK ??

The fuse in the plug is to protect the cable, not the person as most people think.

The death rate in Europe is not so high as US as Europe uses 240V which as the figures bear out is actually safer than 110V used in US. Reasons for this are:

- Use of RCD's in Europe, not very prevelent in US (see below).
- RCD's are better with 240V as the voltage is higher, it is easier for any fault (eg person touching live) to generate enough current (greater than 30mA) to trip the RCD. Touching a live 110 does not automatically generate enough current to cause a trip, mind you maybe not enough to kill you either. RCD's are starting to be fitted in US now I notice.
- Using 240V means you don't need such a large protective earth (ie thinner wire) to get sufficient fault current (ie live touching earth) to trip a protective device (fuse or breaker) than in the US, so protective earths tend to be a lot more common with 240V than 110V.
- The US extensively use wire nuts (not used in Europe since 1950's) which are responsible for a great number of fires in US. Should not be used in US now under current regulations I think.
- The higher current needed to get the same power in US leads to a great number of fires, made worse as a lot of US housing stock is wood built.
- There is the mistaken belief in US that 110V is safer than 240V, so people in US bodge accordingly thinking 110V is "safe". In Europe most people know and understand that 240V might kill you and behave accordingly.
- Oh forget, the US 70's & 80's use of aluminum (aluminium to rest of world) wiring. Nothing wrong with it really if designed and installed correctly, which of course it often wasn't with all the associated problems (fire mainly).http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

[Pete77]

Thanks for the detailed home electrics science lesson Ian. Quite interesting stuff.

As your knowledge is clearly comprehensive here can you tell me after how long you think the wiring in a typical domestic home in the UK actually needs to be replaced? Or does it depend on the wiring used?

My mum lives in a 1958 house and all the overhead lighting wiring is the original red and black wire stuff which seems rather crumbly if one ever needs to try and change a fitting these days. I suspect some of that might be a fire risk.

The wall sockets used to comprise some of the old round pin stuff and also the square plug modern type when my parents moved there in 1968 but fuse boxes were consolidated (there used to be two households living there and two kitchens and living rooms even though the place only had planning permission as a single detached house) and merged in 1970 when the two small kitchens were also made in to one large kitchen. The wall sockets are now only modern square pin type but some of the sockets date from 1958 and I suspect a good deal of the cabling in the walls does from that time too.

Is there still an argument that after 51 years rewiring should take place for safety reasons or is it merely a question of having someone without an axe to grind that one trusts examine the wiring and give an opinion on whether or not it is still safe?

[TCM2007]

Having just been on a three week long trip right across the USA from West to East in October and having had to buy a US to UK power socket adapter from a US shop I can assure you that most US power sockets are now three pins including an earth pin.

In my experience earthed household appliances seem to not only have metal exteriors but also require direct contact by the end user to operate their On/Off switch. Whereas a Tivo has no on/off swith and does not provide for any contact by the end user once set up in order to operate it......

You must stay in higher class hotels than me Pete; the ones I stay in frequently have the two pin sockets which with the weight of a UK adapter allow the plug to droop alarmingly revealing live metal.

I think 3 pins are standard in homes though.

TiVo, if memory serves, is not earthed (only two pins the the plug which goes in the back) so whether the mains plug has two or three pins is irrelevant.

[Pete77]

You must stay in higher class hotels than me Pete; the ones I stay in frequently have the two pin sockets which with the weight of a UK adapter allow the plug to droop alarmingly revealing live metal.

In 15 nights there in October I think the most I paid per night (one person in single room) was 47 quid for some rather dubious establishment purveyed by Expedia called West End Studios on 103rd Street in Manhattan. Cheapest was 20 quid for the night (always a single room with one person in it) in some dodgy motel with a few Native social security claimants also staying there (as it turned out the following morning when they tried to flog us various wares/souvenirs while we loaded up our car) in Flagstaff. I'm sure you normally stay in a much higher class of place than that TCM.:p

All US sockets do have a third pin capability but it just isn't obvious if you use a typical cheap UK world adapter converter where only two pins are provided on the US side. However the US adapter I bought had three pins on the US wall socket end which made me query it with the retailer (Radio Shack). I was assured all US sockets had a third earth pin but it just wasn't obvious as its much thinner than the other two and rather hidden unless you look hard. And so it turned out as that converter went in to the socket in every hotel/motel I visited.

TiVo, if memory serves, is not earthed (only two pins the the plug which goes in the back) so whether the mains plug has two or three pins is irrelevant.

Correct. The only devices that seem to still be earthed in the UK that are low wattage (i.e 150W or less) are lamp shades with a metal stem and lamp fitting. Higher wattage appliances like cookers do tend to be earthed.

[Ian_m]

As your knowledge is clearly comprehensive here can you tell me after how long you think the wiring in a typical domestic home in the UK actually needs to be replaced? Or does it depend on the wiring used?

My mum lives in a 1958 house and all the overhead lighting wiring is the original red and black wire stuff which seems rather crumbly if one ever needs to try and change a fitting these days. I suspect some of that might be a fire risk.Difficult to say really without looking.

My last house built in 1971 had PVC wiring and was fine. ie changing fittings plugs etc no problem with insulation. It would not be up to standard now, as no RCD's fitted only a "standard" fuse box, but it could probably bought upto spec by adding a new bigger consumer unit. It did have correct protective earthing of bathroom taps, bath, hot water tank and kitchen sink, which I am sure was not standard in the 70's. Also the latest 17th edition of wiring specs talk about adding RCD's to lighting circuits, which is new as people are killing themselves by incorrectly fitting metal light switches and metal light fittings.

You talk about crumbling wiring & black and red cores, so most likely rubber insulation (pre 1960's) and as crumbling definately past it best by date. Not inherently a problem, as not likely to just fail (fire ??) by itself, its just that when any work is done on it ie sockets changed it makes it considerably less safe as you have experienced. Also you may find things like no earth in lighting circuit making any metal (switch or fixing) less safe. Also as an old property plumbing may not be earthed ie kitchen & bathroom taps and radiators in kitchen & bathroom, again not an inherent problem when built but as the electrics have been modified over the years (more sockets in kitchen ?) the protective earthing would not have been addedd.

I suspect that as rubber and as old, yes it does need a re-wire and yes it does cost money. Also as the consumer unit, wiring in restricted zones (kitchen and bathroom) and new circuits are being added your local council building control need to be advised, who incidently might be able you advise you on a suitable contractor to use.

[Pete77]

You talk about crumbling wiring & black and red cores, so most likely rubber insulation (pre 1960's) and as crumbling definately past it best by date. Not inherently a problem, as not likely to just fail (fire ??) by itself, its just that when any work is done on it ie sockets changed it makes it considerably less safe as you have experienced.

So long as its not likely to be a fire risk then that's all I'm really worried about. She gets any electrical work done either by me (if its simple) or by a local handyman who is fairly competent (if its more complicated). She has no plans to start using lots more power hungry appliances in the property.

The house is currently in the Green Belt but if the third runway goes ahead at Heathrow it will be blighted by takeoff movements and if the Green Belt assigned to the area in the early 70s is ever removed again then at least three houses will be built on the plot. Even if that doesn't happen a future buyer may well knock down this house and put up a large executive gin palace mansion on it instead as that has been the general trend in the road. So I don't think a major upgrade of the electrical systems that is not needed on safety grounds is justified.

When you talk about RCDs in the fuse box are they the same thing as what I would call circuit breakers in a fuse box or something different? You can now buy plug in circuit breakers to go in old metal wire fuse boxes and she now has these on her two overhead lighting circuits where the fuse used to blow most often. I suspect really these plug in circuit breakers should be installed on all the circuits in the fuse box to increase safety?

Regarding earthing my 1991 flat conversion had earth strap connections to things like the bathroom metal fittings but then the final earthing point to the main water pipe inlet in the kitchen had not been connected and I had to attach it six years after the flat had been converted when I first moved in. So much for building control doing their job properly...........

[RichardJH]

Pete a google search for RCD and MCB will no doubt help you and protect us forum members from losing your ramblings to the consequenses of electric shock. :D:rolleyes:

a good start is here http://www.blue-room.org.uk/wiki/Residual_Current_Device

as for your Mums house if you have noticed some thing amiss with the wiring I strongly suggest you get it checked out. Most electricity suppliers will carry out a free check especially for the elderly.

As for your comments re building control not doing there job properly a lot has changed in the last years regarding building control and electrical work in existing properties such that is unlikely that they were at all involved in that quarter when your flat was converted in 1991.

[Pete77]

Thanks for your usual highly sarcastic post RichardJH.:p

However what I simply wanted to establish is are all fuse box trip off and flip back up to reset circuit breakers also RCDs at the same time (I know what a standalone RCD for a normal mains socket used with a an electric lawnmowere or hedge trimmer looks like) or are most of them only circuit breakers and only recent ones or more expensive ones also RCD devices at the same time?

Also can one buy plug in replacements for old fashioned fuse wire fuse boxes which are not only circuit breakers but also RCDs? Or does the whole fuse box have to be replaced to achieve this?

As to the supposedly free independent checks by your power supplier obviously most of them have a commercial interest in condemning your current electrics to make a profitable sale to replace them. You will notice that British Gas servicing guys always condemn your current boiler and claim it is in need of replacement if you are unwise to have it serviced by them rather than by an independent boiler servicing guy who does not make most of his money from installing new boilers.;)

[RichardJH]

In answer to your 4 points:

1: thankyou for noticing that it is only a jest not a joust

2: MCB's are rated at different current values and serve to protect wiring to its current carrying capacity and fixed equipment in the same way.
Portable and other equipment is protected by either the plugtop or fused spur fitted fuse. EG a ring main is normally protected by a 30A fuse or a 32A MCB but equipment plugged in will be protected by a lower amperage fuse to suit the wiring and load of the item up to a max 13A fuse. 1A, 2A 3A 5A 10A also available.

An MCB will not afford any protection against electrocution to the person. To acheive that form of protection you need an RCD with a max tripping capacity of 30ma.

It is possible to fit individual RCD's in place of standard MCB's but does depend on what make of consumer unit (fuse box) is fitted. The norm is to have a split load consumer unit with part protected by an incoming RCD ( ring mains etc) and part unprotected (lighting)

3: Yes you can buy mcb's to replace plug in fuses dependant on fuse box manufacture however in general they will not provide any better protection to existing installations and I can only repeat safety is paramount so my advice is get Mum's wiring checked.

4: I agree that any contractor doing a check is in effect giving a quote for business but you would not call them if you had no doubts.

http://www.cselectrics.co.uk/safety_check.html

http://www.edfenergy.com/products-services/for-your-home/our-products/home-improvements.shtml#

[Ian_m]

It is possible to fit individual RCD's in place of standard MCB's but does depend on what make of consumer unit (fuse box) is fitted. The norm is to have a split load consumer unit with part protected by an incoming RCD ( ring mains etc) and part unprotected (lighting)You would not (and should not) replace MCB's with RCD's as MCB's are for providing over current fault protection and RCD's "leakage" protection. Single RCD's for consumer units do not generally have overcurrent protection unless double width, I suspect this is done on purpose to stop someone blindly swapping a MCB for RCD and burning their house down.

What you need is an RCBO a RCD+MCB.

Here are some pictures....

An RCD, note double width and no MCD (ie overcurrent).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGCD263U.html

An MCB 6A trip current.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGMT106.html

An RCBO RCD+MCB however need a special "tall" consumer unit.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGADN106.html

[RichardJH]

Thanks Ian. My wording was bad and was never intended to imply that you can do away with over current protection. It should have read RCBO.

[Pete77]

An RCBO RCD+MCB however need a special "tall" consumer unit.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGADN106.html


I don't suppose that an old style fuse wire fuse box would be a "tall" consumer unit in terms of the socketry?

My own MCB fuse box here certainly has shorter items than the big old brown pull out things in my Mum's fuse box.

[DeadKenny]

How do I break the news to you.

Having just been on a three week long trip right across the USA from West to East in October and having had to buy a US to UK power socket adapter from a US shop I can assure you that most US power sockets are now three pins including an earth pin.
Having travelled to the States (and Canada) a lot, I am well aware of that.

However as said...
You must stay in higher class hotels than me Pete; the ones I stay in frequently have the two pin sockets which with the weight of a UK adapter allow the plug to droop alarmingly revealing live metal.

... this is very much my experience. Alarmingly more so with items that expose live metal (table lights in particular).

Also of note is that a lot of UK travel adapters do not use the 3rd pin connection that are found in US sockets.

[Ian_m]

I don't suppose that an old style fuse wire fuse box would be a "tall" consumer unit in terms of the socketry?Don't think so.

I have replaced a "olde worlde" fused consumer unit (black unit, brown fuse holders) with a modern RCD/MCD unit and they were virtually the same size, height wise. This was before the days of RCBO's and was just a split load CU, house sockets on 30mA, lights and fixed kitchen appliances on non RCD and 100A master switch. Also done pre days of Prat P (whoops Part) so no need to inform council/building control or even get tested....

[RichardJH]

Don't think so.

Also done pre days of Prat P (whoops Part) so no need to inform council/building control or even get tested....

Ian I do like the slight spelling mistake :D:D

Here is the link that may help P to learn about P

http://www.partp.co.uk/consumer/consumer_diy.asp

[Ian_m]

Ian I do like the slight spelling mistake :D:D

Here is the link that may help P to learn about P

http://www.partp.co.uk/consumer/consumer_diy.asp
Was hurried in due to the death of an MP's daughter but all it has done has increased the death rate as people "bodge" to avoid Prat P. Was bought up in parliment about increased death rate and all that was promised was to make the public futher aware about the dangers of electricity and not change the legislation.

[Ashley]

Strange that I can legally work on my own gas pipes but cannot replace my MCBs with the safer RCBOs.:confused:

[RichardJH]

The annoying thing is that after 40 years in the property maintenance industry ending up as a one of the maintenance managers for an airline I find myself " unqualified " but never mind the pension is good