The Wonder Years Unavailable On DVD Due To Music Licensing Rights

[Malcontent]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090117/0537253446.shtml

One of the tragedies of ridiculous music licensing practices has been that TV shows that involved great music can no longer be seen -- because when they were first aired, there was no aftermarket, and so no rights were cleared with the music owners. The famous case is the TV show WKRP in Cincinnati, which tried to get around the issue by replacing all the great classic rock in the original, with crappy new music -- really harming the quality of the show. Tom sent in a note pointing out that the classic 80s TV show The Wonder Years is actually facing a similar issue, and because of it, the show is not available on DVD. The show was famous for integrating great music into the overall show -- clearing all that music for a DVD release is apparently too difficult, leading to an overall loss to society and culture.

[bengalfreak]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090117/0537253446.shtml

bitorrent

[sshedlock]

Ed is having the same issues.

[jennifer]

I believe thirtysomething is having similar issues :(

[Kamakzie]

Lame! :down: :(

[DevdogAZ]

Is this supposed to be new information? Hasn't this been known for several years?

[MegaHertz67]

Is this supposed to be new information? Hasn't this been known for several years?The movie Heavy Metal had the exact same issues.

[Mindflux]

This is not new news.

[That Don Guy]

Murphy Brown has similar problems - not enough people bought Season 1 to justify paying the additional costs (because the amount of Motown music used went up starting in Season 2) for getting the music rights to subsequent seasons.

-- Don

[aintnosin]

When will the pinhead record companies realize that having old catalog tunes out there on a Wonder Years DVD for people to hear would be FREE PUBLICITY?!!

Morons.

[JLucPicard]

I know nothing about the music business and how that all works, but I would bet that they would net very little in new sales of that old music by letting the DVD producers use it for free compared to how much they would make by making the producers pay for the rights. Yes, you can say that there might be sales of some level if they allowed the use for free - and would not be sales at all based on having the music on the DVDs if they DON'T allow it and the DVDs therefore are not released - but I doubt the trade off would be worth them giving the rights away for free.

[anom]

Ed is having the same issues.
Ed? There's no excuse for that. I can understand the problem with some of these older shows, but by the time Ed was on the air, the home video market was not exactly an unknown concept.

[DevdogAZ]

Ed? There's no excuse for that. I can understand the problem with some of these older shows, but by the time Ed was on the air, the home video market was not exactly an unknown concept.
Agreed. All the issues with WKRP and The Wonder Years were well known at the time Ed was produced.

Perhaps these TV producers are short sighted and when presented with options ($10 for rights to use the song when the show is broadcast, $20 for rights to use the song in broadcast and video), they choose the less expensive option, not knowing whether their show will be a success and not wanting to spend more than is necessary if it fails. By the time the show is a success and it's clear there will be a market for the DVDs, the price for home video rights goes way up.

[aintnosin]

I know nothing about the music business and how that all works, but I would bet that they would net very little in new sales of that old music by letting the DVD producers use it for free compared to how much they would make by making the producers pay for the rights. Yes, you can say that there might be sales of some level if they allowed the use for free - and would not be sales at all based on having the music on the DVDs if they DON'T allow it and the DVDs therefore are not released - but I doubt the trade off would be worth them giving the rights away for free.Except that if the DVD producers refuse to pay, then the music rights holders are making exactly zero dollars from those songs, which is obviously less than they could potentially earn with a well-thought-out process of cross-promotion.

[JLucPicard]

Except that if the DVD producers refuse to pay, then the music rights holders are making exactly zero dollars from those songs, which is obviously less than they could potentially earn with a well-thought-out process of cross-promotion.
Which is exactly what I said.
Yes, you can say that there might be sales of some level if they allowed the use for free - and would not be sales at all based on having the music on the DVDs if they DON'T allow it and the DVDs therefore are not released - but I doubt the trade off would be worth them giving the rights away for free.
I'm sure there is some point at which giving it away is basically meaningless anyway.

I hate giving made up examples because they can be twisted any way people want to, but for example...

If the normal asking price to sell the rights to the producers so the songs can be used on the DVDs is $10,000.00 and the additional revenue they would realize by additional sales stemming from the songs being heard on the DVDs is $25.00 - yes, they may be $25 ahead by just giving them the rights to use them on the DVDs for no charge, but it really isn't worth just giving away those rights to only realize a $25 gain.

There has to be some "yes it makes sense versus no it doesn't" value analysis point somewhere, and I think giving them away for nothing is not 'there'.

[aintnosin]

There has to be some "yes it makes sense versus no it doesn't" value analysis point somewhere, and I think giving them away for nothing is not 'there'.
I'm not advocating "giving the songs away for free," but the current process where the DVD producers basically have to negotiate separately for each song until it becomes too time consuming and expensive to bother, is just ridiculous and counter-productive. At that point, the DVD producers say "screw it" and the record companies A) get nothing and B) lose a chance to promote their back catalog. Surely there is a middle ground where both parties get what they need.

[FiftyoneFifty]

Didn't Married With Children go through the same thing, but just put some lame-ass mu-zak version of the theme on the disc and ship em anyway?

[JLucPicard]

I'm not advocating "giving the songs away for free," but the current process where the DVD producers basically have to negotiate separately for each song
OK, now I've gotcha, you're absolutely correct. I was thinking along the lines of the whole song pool, but - duh - of course there would be more than just one rights-owner that would have to dealt with.

[dianebrat]

I've always wondered if music clearances are also the reason we've never seen Cold Case on DVD.. and that's even more recent then Ed.

[mattack]

I've always wondered if music clearances are also the reason we've never seen Cold Case on DVD.. and that's even more recent then Ed.

Interesting... Though I wouldn't've deleted the episodes without checking, I have more than a season on my Tivo unwatched, and had thought of renting the DVDs eventually instead..
guess not. (I also happen to have an ep or two randomly scattered across DVD-RWs.. which made me even want to just rent the whole season even more..)

[Bierboy]

Also the same problem American Dreams had when they tried to release seasons subsequent to S1 (which did make it to DVD).

[dianebrat]

Interesting... Though I wouldn't've deleted the episodes without checking, I have more than a season on my Tivo unwatched, and had thought of renting the DVDs eventually instead..
guess not. (I also happen to have an ep or two randomly scattered across DVD-RWs.. which made me even want to just rent the whole season even more..)
Well when it premiered I was already thinking "boy I'm impressed with the fact they got the music rights so this won't be like WKRP, no one is that dumb in 2003" and six seasons later, no DVD's announced that I know of.
:mad:

[AnnaBanana]

Life on Mars will be in the same situation.

Ally McBeal is another that will never see DVD. :down:

[NoThru22]

Every week when there are new songs released in Rock Band, people put up YouTube videos of each instrument (drums, guitar, bass, vocals) so other people can decided whether to buy them or not. Lately, some music labels have been making them either delete the videos or remove the music track, taking away the ability to evaluate the song for purchase. Tell me where this makes a lick of sense??

[classicsat]

When will the pinhead record companies realize that having old catalog tunes out there on a Wonder Years DVD for people to hear would be FREE PUBLICITY?!!

Morons.

Never.

A DVD copy of their program will have to have the music licensed like if they where making a compilation CD , because the customer is essentially buying a copy of that music they can play when they want, rather than the broadcast model that comes and goes as it does, which allows them to license a lower cost license.

Given a typical season has 26 episodes, it would end up being the same as buying a the DVD and a compilation CD in the end.

[MaryT]

Didn't Married With Children go through the same thing, but just put some lame-ass mu-zak version of the theme on the disc and ship em anyway?Yes, we have a set and the intro music is just awful.

[Mindflux]

Ally McBeal is another that will never see DVD. :down:

Well that's because it sucked arse..

[trainman]

Ally McBeal is another that will never see DVD. :down:

Looks like it's available as a European import (http://www.amazon.com/Ally-Mcbeal-Complete-Collection-Region/dp/B000ZMCFIS/ref=pd_cp_d_1?pf_rd_p=413864101&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0010ZDL82&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=16K3XWJB5F7VCHB5F3TH).

Actually, in the U.S., this "best-of" was released years ago (http://www.amazon.com/Ally-McBeal-Sex-Single-Life/dp/B00003G4IP) -- back in the days before DVD producers realized that 99% of people wanted complete-season sets.

[Cainebj]

The original British mini-series of Queer as Folk had the same problem with an exception - they had the rights to use the music in the British DVD market, but not the North American, so - it finally was released in the United States except all the music was replaced by generic disco and dance music.

[Maui]

The whole situation baffles me. They should be able to figure out a deal where both sides can make some money on the releases. As it is, if the DVD never gets released then nobody is making any money.

[smak]

I think The Larry Sanders show has the same issues, which is why they released the "very best of Larry Sanders", which jumped around to episodes that either didn't feature a band, or probably featured ones they could get the rights to for a decent price.

-smak-

[smak]

Agreed. All the issues with WKRP and The Wonder Years were well known at the time Ed was produced.



Well, I think the current situation of releasing basically every TV series in a DVD boxed set is just that, a pretty recent phenomenom.

ED Debuted 8 1/2 years ago, which was a little before that.

-smak-

[Elevation]

I think Roswell had this problem. But they released the dvds anyways with different music.

[aadam101]

Life on Mars will be in the same situation.

Ally McBeal is another that will never see DVD. :down:

Ally McBeal will cost a fortune. Music was a HUGE part of the show.

I think this is great. It's crap like this that makes bittorrent even more powerful. Some poor guy is gonna check out Amazon and realize he can't buy his favorite show from the 80's. He will then start looking around and discover bittorrent for the very first time. He will then never buy another DVD box set again because he just realized he can get it for free.

+1 for the little guy.

[Philosofy]

One episode of Highlander used Kansas' "Dust in the Wind". The producers told me it cost them a fortune, and caused headaches for the video tape release, and they would never use popular music in the series again.

[aadam101]

I think that is what will happen. Shows will have no choice but to create their own music rather than use musics from pop artists. Danny Elfman is gonna be a busy guy.

[marksman]

This is so dumb, because there has to be a middle ground in almost every single case that makes sense to all parties involved. So one or all parties are being greedy and/or stupid. There is little rational reason for it.
/
Should the music rights holders be compensated? Absolutely. Does that number have to be so much as to make using music in tv shows and redistributing them on dvd is cost prohibitive? Of course not.

[alpacaboy]

Ally McBeal will cost a fortune. Music was a HUGE part of the show.

I've wondered about that. It's been a while, but wasn't most of the music performed (but not written for) for the show, or even on the show? I thought at least one season had Vonda Shepherd in the credits who I thought sang most of what was on.

I thought licensing was much cheaper when you're only licensing the song but not the performance - and if you hire the performance, shouldn't it be a lot cheaper?

[Bob Coxner]

I think that is what will happen. Shows will have no choice but to create their own music rather than use musics from pop artists. Danny Elfman is gonna be a busy guy.

No, they buy music from unknown artists (cheap) and they buy all rights for all present and future formats.

[Kablemodem]

They just need to include the DVD rights when they negotiate the rights to use the music in the first place, at least going forward.

[sshedlock]

They just need to include the DVD rights when they negotiate the rights to use the music in the first place, at least going forward.

Here is what I don't get (unless more modern shows have gotten savvy)

In the show Supernatural, music is a HUGE part of the show..and IMO one of the components that makes the show great. Yet they have no issues with putting out season DVDs.

[Philosofy]

There was an episode of Freaks and Geeks, where the kid was streaking. In the original episode, the music was "One Step Beyond" by Madness. In repeats it was another song, not as funny or effective.

[tiassa]

The DVD's of Miami Vice (which originally aired in 1984) weren't released until just recently (2005-6), a large part of that was due to the original music they used, which was an important part of the "vibe" of the show.

[Bob_Newhart]

Couldn't they simply replace all the songs with generic midi-like music? :confused:

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Here is what I don't get (unless more modern shows have gotten savvy)

In the show Supernatural, music is a HUGE part of the show..and IMO one of the components that makes the show great. Yet they have no issues with putting out season DVDs.

You got it in one. ;) Modern shows are more savvy, and negotiate rights for the music they use that include future releases in other formats.

What I don't remember is if shows like the Wonder Years and WKRP have used original music or substitutions when they moved into syndication. That's something the producers could have thought of up front, although they may have opted not to to save money.

[mattack]

Couldn't they simply replace all the songs with generic midi-like music? :confused:

Umm, that's the point. The viewers (that know about the issue) don't want the music changed. If you mean versions of the songs by new bands, they would still need to pay some of the rights.

What I don't remember is if shows like the Wonder Years and WKRP have used original music or substitutions when they moved into syndication. That's something the producers could have thought of up front, although they may have opted not to to save money.

This is discussed in detail elsewhere on the web (maybe on Wikipedia). For a long time, the WKRP reruns DID have the original music (but presumably were still hacked up for more commercial time). The number of stations that were allowed to use the original series dwindled, and I don't think any have them anymore.

[Bob_Newhart]

Instead of playing the actual song, they could insert a caption in the scene such as "Elton John's Philadelphia Freedom played here in the original airing of this program". I think that could work.

[Kablemodem]

I was watching an episode of Howard TV the other day and they were playing Stump the Booey, which is a game where they play 80s music and the two players have to guess the title and artist. On the radio show they use the actual music, but on the In Demand version they replace it with time filler music similar to that used on Jeopardy! It thought it was weird they were using that music in the contest, and when they used it for the second song I figured out what they were doing.

[TiVoJedi]

Didn't anyone record Wonder Years when it was shown on ION Network the year before last? They ran every episode except the Christmas episode in season 2 (If I remember correctly).

[Bob Coxner]

Even losing just the theme song would totally destroy Wonder Years. Can you imagine it opening without Joe Cocker singing "A Little Help From My Friends" and instead you had some generic instrumental?