Lost 1/21/08 "Because You Left; The Lie" (spoilers)

[Fool Me Twice]

It looked like the same compass that Locke gave to Sayid in season one.


Wasn't the compass one of the items Richard placed before Locke as a child?

A compass comparison.

http://lost.cubit.net/images/index/covers/5x01_compass2.jpg

[wprager]

That was a great write up.........

One thing he notes (which I missed and, I believe, hasn't been mentioned here) was that Candle's baby was notably *not* Oriental. Does anyone recall if she had reddish hair and blue eyes?

As for Daniel talking to Desmond, he may have changed the past but he didn't actually affect it. Desmond remembered only 3+ years later.

As for why it was 3+ later and not shortly after they got off the Island, who knows what time-frame the remaining losties are in. They are jumping all around.

[gchance]

A compass comparison.


Thanks for that. I wasn't implying that Locke's compass was the same as the one Richard had, but that picture does confirm what I thought was correct and couldn't find an image of, that the compass Richard gives to Locke before Locke jumps is the same one he showed to him as a boy.

One thing he notes (which I missed and, I believe, hasn't been mentioned here) was that Candle's baby was notably *not* Oriental. Does anyone recall if she had reddish hair and blue eyes?

He was, in fact DarkUFO (http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/) had some people speculating the baby might actually be Miles.

Greg

[philw1776]

I won't make comments on specific plot points, but I am happy to see that it appears the writers knew where they were going all along. I have had my doubts the past few seasons - seems like they will be able to tie up loose ends.

And, in a spectacularly entertaining manner.

And finally, Damn. Sawyer is hot. I'm so happy this show is back on the air. :)

Women are always looking at us like that. Disgusting. :p

Me, I thought Sawyer had put on a bit of weight. Note the emerging love handles when he was shirtless.

[getreal]

Can't believe we don't have a thread yet.

This is for both of the episodes that aired tonight - Because You Left and The Lie.
Since it aired as a 2-hour thing together, it probably gets one thread.

Lost is back!

Unless jkeegan is time-trippin', the title SHOULD read 1/21/09. :)

Just reading through this extensive thread. I'll have comments/observations later ...

[stellie93]

When Richard told Locke he would have to die to go back and convince the 6 to return, did he mean he had to appear to them after his death like Charlie, Anna, and others did who had previously tried to convince them? Was Jeremy Bentham ever alive, or did they just not suspect that he wasn't because they didn't know Locke had died? But that doesn't explain why his body was there.

Did anyone else think when they said that they had access to limitless energy that there would be way better uses for that than time travel? Probably not anyone on this thread. ;)

[Fool Me Twice]

Me, I thought Sawyer had put on a bit of weight. Note the emerging love handles when he was shirtless.He's always had those. I think he just has wide obliques. So don't be rude!
http://thesuperficial.com/2007/06/evangeline-lilly-finger-candids-07.jpg
:D

[gchance]

Women are always looking at us like that. Disgusting. :p

Me, I thought Sawyer had put on a bit of weight. Note the emerging love handles when he was shirtless.

He's always had those. I think he just has wide obliques. So don't be rude!

Yup, he always had them. I commented on them to my wife during the first season episode when he showed his buttcrack.

If women want to be in love with Sawyer, I have no problem with it. Just so long as they don't comment on how sexist we are when we drool over Kate.

Greg

[Fool Me Twice]

If women want to be in love with Sawyer, I have no problem with it. Just so long as they don't comment on how sexist we are when we drool over Kate.

GregI was just looking for an excuse to post a pic of EL. But, do I really need a reason?

http://resim.delisiyiz.com/system/files/images/Evangeline_Lilly_19.preview.jpghttp://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/EvangelineLilly2.jpg
http://www.palzoo.net/file/pic/user/EvangelineLilly.jpghttp://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/evangeline_lilly.jpg

[jkeegan]

I guess I'm in the minority who didn't like it as well..

I think Lost had enough to wrap up with the existing mysteries without adding a signifcant amount of time travel.I'm hoping we see they didn't 'add' a significant amount of time travel, it was in the story all along (from the first season).

[jkeegan]

Still behind, around post 214, but wanted to get this out before I read more.

I was about to post a statement that Daniel saying Desmond was "special" was possibly only referring to the fact that his memory was swiss cheese, that he spends portions of his life in different times from when he "just was", and that there's some possibility that Desmond might open the hatch, meet him there, NOT remember that meeting when departing on the helicopter, but then remember that meeting at a later date.

(Maybe Desmond, for the 3 years with Penny after being rescued, still shifts around in time (he just doesn't nosebleed because of his constant Penny), and that's why Penny told him "you're safe.. You have been for 3 years". Maybe 3 years after the rescue he jumped back to the hatch, eventually fell back into that routine forgetting who/where he was, somehow remembered he was expecting a replacement, this guy pounds on the hatch door, he opens it, talks with him, then snaps back to 3-years after the rescue. And hell, that's 3 years after the rescue, it's not like Daniel planned the date, so it's entirely possible he doesn't need to be "special" at all, other than not remembering the conversation at the helicopter departure (possibly because he didn't experience it yet)).

That's what I was going to post.

But I can't escape the fact that they've shown us Desmond seeing Charlie shot in the neck with an arrow, only to later prevent an arrow at that exact same location (i.e. not just luck or coincidence). Desmond saw a vision of a future, and changed it - there were two versions of those 5 seconds - one where Charlie died and one where he didn't. Desmond's mechanism is different. Minkowski's mechanism may be different too, if the effect of turning the hatch key was merely to give him the same exposure to radiation that Minkowski had, coupled with moving near the island on the wrong bearing, and Minkowski and Desmond are the same.

Initially I thought that when Oxford Daniel said "so wait, I made reference to this conversation, right? I remembered it?" and Desmond said no and Daniel said "How can that be?", that the answer was because his memory was all screwed up and he couldn't remember anything. But maybe the answer truly is something more like Desmond's changes actually change the 4d picture.

Well, maybe it's more like the one and only 4d painting of time (made up of people's decisions, actions, etc) has its Desmond portions painted by a guy (Desmond) who has a bit of a sneak peak of possible outcomes, and he decides which one will be real. That will then be the only real one, and other people time traveling won't be able to change it.

Ugh. Need sleep.

Nah. Daniel will believe Desmond is something special, and then later we'll find out a clear, cool, easy explanation for why he's not -

[jkeegan]

Unless jkeegan is time-trippin', the title SHOULD read 1/21/09. :)

Just reading through this extensive thread. I'll have comments/observations later ...Doh! I tried changing it, but all it lets me change is the title of my initial post of the thread. Can a moderator rename the thread?

[Rob Helmerichs]

But I can't escape the fact that they've shown us Desmond seeing Charlie shot in the neck with an arrow, only to later prevent an arrow at that exact same location (i.e. not just luck or coincidence). Desmond saw a vision of a future, and changed it - there were two versions of those 5 seconds - one where Charlie died and one where he didn't.
Well, not really...he SAW two versions of it, one in his vision and one in reality. But in reality there was only ONE version.

Your original theory may well be on to something.

[wprager]

When Desmond saw Charlie getting killed with an arrow in the neck and prevented it from happening, he was not affecting the past. Perhaps *that* is the rule or, more precisely, you cannot change the past to affect your present. We all ahve the ability to affect our future, unless you believe in pre-destiny.

[Rob Helmerichs]

In which case it must get tricky when part of the future is part of the past. E.g., during the period between when Locke leaves the present and acts in the past, the part of the future where he goes to the past is part of the past and thus can't be changed.

[stellie93]

I figure we each have 1 opportunity to make any one decision we make in our lives at whatever
time we are first presented with it. We can't go back and redo it or change it. But if "someone"
has a vantage point above the whole timeline, and sees it all at once, they know not only what
we did, but what we will do. And that won't change.

[Jeeters]

that picture does confirm what I thought was correct and couldn't find an image of, that the compass Richard gives to Locke before Locke jumps is the same one he showed to him as a boy.The brass casing is the same / similar, but the compass lettering, arrows, etc. look very different to me. :confused:

[Delta13]

Well, not really...he SAW two versions of it, one in his vision and one in reality. But in reality there was only ONE version.

Your original theory may well be on to something.Not precisely, Rob. You are right on the reality part, about only 1 thing coming true. But Desmond never saw an alternate version of what was happening to Charlie. He just kept preventing the one he saw from happening.

The lightning strike, the drowning saving Claire, the slipping on the rocks getting the bird - Desmond (to our knowledge) never saw the next Charlie incident until he changed the future he saw. And he was clearly frustrated that he kept saving Charlie for no apparent reason, until it was time for the Looking Glass station diving expedition.

Another future-change (absent a writing flub) is that Desmond saw Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter and leaving. Even if he mistook Kate for Claire somehow, he totally missed the fact that he was also on the very same chopper. Yeah, I know, it could still happen - but I believe it was a change in the future.

I think Desmond can change the past and the future. Everyone else (with the possible exception of Locke) is locked into their destiny.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Not precisely, Rob. You are right on the reality part, about only 1 thing coming true. But Desmond never saw an alternate version of what was happening to Charlie. He just kept preventing the one he saw from happening.
Sure he did. He also saw the one that actually happened, when it happened. That was my point. The one he saw in his vision may or may not have eventually happened, but the only one that matters is the one that happened before his very eyes. His visions weren't "what happened," and thus unable to be changed. They were things that might have happened if things went differently.

One could even argue that the point of the visions was to make sure that what happened happened, by "inspiring" Desmond to "interfere" and thus do what was going to happen all along.

I still think Desmond and time travel are going to turn out to be a lot more straight-forward than most people are thinking.

[rondotcom]

Upon third viewing I finally realized the truth about the Chang's baby. It's red-haired, blue-eyed female and named Charlotte.

Of course I could be wrong.

[TIVO_GUY_HERE]

1st off I have not read all these posts.

The only episode I watched last season was the season finale. I stopped watching in the middle of the season before that. I only recorded the 3 hour block cuz it was repeated on Saturday, and nothing else to record. I was really impressed how the 1st hour caught me up. Great job guys. I think they might of just sucked me in for another season. I will never get as involved as many of you, but kudos to them for a great start to the season.

[mqpickles]

I think Desmond can change the past and the future. Everyone else (with the possible exception of Locke) is locked into their destiny.Could be.

Daniel told Desmond that the rules don't apply to him because he is "uniquely, miraculously special."

If he's truly uniquely special, then there are some exceptions to the rules that apply only to Desmond.

[3D]

I don't remember Desmond actually meeting Daniel on the island. He talked to him on the phone, but did they meet in person before that? He wouldn't recognize his voice on the phone.

I honestly can't remember if Desmond and Daniel met face to face last season, but think that they must have because Daniel and Charlotte were with Frank before Frank left for the freighter with Desmond and Sayid. Maybe someone who's recently rewatched S4 can confirm or deny.

The brass casing is the same / similar, but the compass lettering, arrows, etc. look very different to me. :confused:

There were three pictures of compasses in the post you were referring two. The one Ricahrd gave Locke this episode and the one he showed Locke as a boy look the same. The third compass, which I believe Locke had during S1 (and then gave to someone after saying that he didn't need it anymore) was the one that you are looking at and seeing as completely different.

[Jeeters]

The brass casing is the same / similar, but the compass lettering, arrows, etc. look very different to me. :confused:

There were three pictures of compasses in the post you were referring two. The one Ricahrd gave Locke this episode and the one he showed Locke as a boy look the same..Umm, no, they're different. The compass that Richard gave Locke in this episode is different than the one given to him at a boy...

The 'boy compass' has the N for North next to the lanyard ring.

The compass that Richard gave Locke in this episode has its face upside down in comparison to the boy compass; i.e., South is next to the lanyard ring instead of North.
Also, instead of W for West, it has an 'O' which means it's probably either a Spanish or French compass. The boy compass has a 'W'.

[BitbyBlit]

The compass that Richard gave Locke in this episode has its face upside down in comparison to the boy compass; i.e., South is next to the lanyard ring instead of North.
Also, instead of W for West, it has an 'O' which means it's probably either a Spanish or French compass. The boy compass has a 'W'.

The needle also looks quite different.

[3D]

Umm, no, they're different. The compass that Richard gave Locke in this episode is different than the one given to him at a boy...

The 'boy compass' has the N for North next to the lanyard ring.

The compass that Richard gave Locke in this episode has its face upside down in comparison to the boy compass; i.e., South is next to the lanyard ring instead of North.
Also, instead of W for West, it has an 'O' which means it's probably either a Spanish or French compass. The boy compass has a 'W'.

oops. You're right. For some reason, when I first looked at it, I thought that the W for West was just being covered up by the way the arrow was pointing.

[3D]

Read this observation on another board and found it intersting. In S1, Locke had a vision of the small plane crashing, which led him to take Boone and go looking for it. Was he simply having a memory inserted the same way Desmond suddenly remembered the meeting with Daniel?

[DevdogAZ]

Read this observation on another board and found it intersting. In S1, Locke had a vision of the small plane crashing, which led him to take Boone and go looking for it. Was he simply having a memory inserted the same way Desmond suddenly remembered the meeting with Daniel?
I don't see how. Desmond's "memory" from this episode is something that happened to him in his past. But what you're suggesting is that Locke might have had a "memory" of something that happened to him in his future. Although the actual plane crash took place in the past, it was future Locke that traveled back in time and saw the crash, so in S1, the vision that Locke had couldn't have been a memory.

[7thton]

Locke gets shot in the leg when he's at the crashed plane. Could that be why he couldn't walk when he approached the plane the first time we saw it a couple of seasons ago?

There's one thing I need a to refresh my memory. Who is Jill, the woman Ben goes to in the butcher shop? Where has she been seen before.

Good catch! That didn't occur to me.

[3D]

I don't see how. Desmond's "memory" from this episode is something that happened to him in his past. But what you're suggesting is that Locke might have had a "memory" of something that happened to him in his future. Although the actual plane crash took place in the past, it was future Locke that traveled back in time and saw the crash, so in S1, the vision that Locke had couldn't have been a memory.

Man, I'm just striking out left and right now. You're correct. What I posted from the other board wouldn't make sense as the Locke from Season 1 is younger, so couldn't have a memory from what we saw this week, as opposed to Desmond, who is three now at least three years older from hatch Desmond.

[jkeegan]

Rewatching now. Thought it was very interesting that Daniel left open the question of whether it was the island moving through time, or the people.

Juliette: So, that's why our camp is gone. Because the island is moving through time?

Daniel: Yeah, either the island is, or we are.

Sawyer: What?

Daniel: It's just as likely that we're moving, your people and us.

[jkeegan]

Another weird thing.. When John was talking to Ethan and Ethan said "Goodbye John Locke", the sky started going white again.. John certainly noticed it, but it didn't seem that Ethan did..

[Turtleboy]

With all this time traveling, I wonder how soon we are going to see who Adam and Eve (the two bodies found in the cave) are.

[jkeegan]

Another thing I noticed during the first time through but never got to post.. It looks like we have our first confirmed link between Oceanic and Widmore. First, scanning her passport and seeing it was her was enough to get the Oceanic booking attendant to get her pulled in a room. Then when the Oceanic guard closes the door and she yells "Open this door!", Widmore enters and says "Save your breath. They only do what I tell them to do."

I wonder now about the stewardess that joined the others.. Is she a Widmore spy?

[jkeegan]

With all this time traveling, I wonder how soon we are going to see who Adam and Eve (the two bodies found in the cave) are.I thought the same thing.

[jkeegan]

If Miles can be believed, it took Widmore "like 20 years" to find the island the first time. Did that mean from 1950ish-1970ish and he started the Dharma Initiative, or does it mean 1975ish-1995 when he found it just now?

[gchance]

With all this time traveling, I wonder how soon we are going to see who Adam and Eve (the two bodies found in the cave) are.

I thought the same thing.

You know, when I first saw the plane, Adam & Eve were the first ones I thought about. Then when Locke saw the smoke, I thought oh wait, the drug plane.

But as I said before, with the people and island moving through time randomly, we now have the opportunity to explain all those strange things we've seen, like Adam & Eve, the Black Rock, the 4-toed statue (we'd see it fully standing and/or its builders).

Greg

[jkeegan]

Another quote from the show, for those still hung up on Daniel's explanation of how time works:

Juliette: We could warn them. Stop them from ever flying to that boat.

Daniel: That's not the way it works.

Sawyer: Who says?

Daniel: You cannot change anything.. You can't. Even if you tried to - it wouldn't work.

Sawyer: Why not?

Daniel: Time, it's like a street. Alright, we can move forward on that street, we can move in reverse, but we cannot - ever - create a new street. If we try to do anything different we will fail. Every time. Whatever happened.. ..happened.

[jkeegan]

Rewatching now. Thought it was very interesting that Daniel left open the question of whether it was the island moving through time, or the people.

Juliette: So, that's why our camp is gone. Because the island is moving through time?

Daniel: Yeah, either the island is, or we are.

Sawyer: What?

Daniel: It's just as likely that we're moving, your people and us.So depending on how much we presume Richard knows, there may be an answer..

John: Wait.. the noise.. when the sky lit up.. where did you go?

Richard: I didn't go anywhere, John, you went.

Then again, that could still be a relative answer.. The island could have moved, bringing Richard along with it, and from his point of view John left. Again, it's how much Richard actually knows.

[DevdogAZ]

So depending on how much we presume Richard knows, there may be an answer..

John: Wait.. the noise.. when the sky lit up.. where did you go?

Richard: I didn't go anywhere, John, you went.

Then again, that could still be a relative answer.. The island could have moved, bringing Richard along with it, and from his point of view John left. Again, it's how much Richard actually knows.
I think we're going to find out that the reason Richard doesn't age, and the reason Locke "moved" while Richard didn't, is because Richard (and the indigenous Others) is somehow tied to the island while anyone who comes from the outside world is not. Being born on the island (Charlotte, Aaron) don't make one indigenous like Richard and his people.

[aindik]

I think we're going to find out that the reason Richard doesn't age, and the reason Locke "moved" while Richard didn't, is because Richard (and the indigenous Others) is somehow tied to the island while anyone who comes from the outside world is not. Being born on the island (Charlotte, Aaron) don't make one indigenous like Richard and his people.

If Richard is indigenous (i.e. was born on) the island, he at some point aged. If not, he'd either still be a newborn infant, or was born in his 30s or 40s.

[jkeegan]

hmm.. Earlier I said the island did move in space according to Daniel, but I was mistaken. The actual quote:

Daniel: No, no no. We can't just sail out on any course. For us to leave, I need to calculate a new bearing, and, uh, to do that, I need to determine where we are now...... ... in time.

[mostman]

If Richard is indigenous (i.e. was born on) the island, he at some point aged. If not, he'd either still be a newborn infant, or was born in his 30s or 40s.

Well - we have seen him off the island. Maybe he ages when he isn't on the island.

[stellie93]

Was Cindy the stewardess with the others when they didn't travel with Locke? She's definately not indigenous. Or is she? What about the children from the plane? Juliet has been there 3 years? Are all the rest original others? Juliet was the only one brought in? :confused:

[DevdogAZ]

Can we please hurry and finish this page so that I don't have to keep scrolling to the right to read every post? That compass pic at the top of the page really made this page annoying.

[aindik]

Can we please hurry and finish this page so that I don't have to keep scrolling to the right to read every post? That compass pic at the top of the page really made this page annoying.

Kind of a downside to your "most posts per page that the forum allows" config, isn't it. :) I'm past that compass page already.

(Glad I could help).

[DevdogAZ]

Kind of a downside to your "most posts per page that the forum allows" config, isn't it. :) I'm past that compass page already.

(Glad I could help).
Yeah, I knew someone would point out that I could just change my settings from 50 posts per page.

Only a couple more to go.

[TAsunder]

Yeah, I knew someone would point out that I could just change my settings from 50 posts per page.

Only a couple more to go.

Or you could just disable in-post images like I do. It took me a while to figure out what the issue was you mentioned.

[DevdogAZ]

Or you could just disable in-post images like I do. It took me a while to figure out what the issue was you mentioned.

Well, most of the time I'm glad the images are there. It's pretty rare that an image is so large that it's wider than the page, and even more rare that it happens in a thread that I return to on a regular basis. Therefore, I'd rather put up with the minor annoyance in this instance rather than not seeing the images that other posters insert on a regular basis that are not too large and that add to the discussion.

One more to go!

[Rob Helmerichs]

I ad-block too-wide images.

[DevdogAZ]

I ad-block too-wide images.

Ooh, interesting. How do you program ad-block to know what images are too wide? Or do you simply do it manually after it's been posted and you see it's too wide?

[Rob Helmerichs]

Ooh, interesting. How do you program ad-block to know what images are too wide? Or do you simply do it manually after it's been posted and you see it's too wide?
Manually.

It's quick, and saves a lot of scrolling back and forth for the next up-to-50 posts!

[wprager]

I just CTL-ScrollWheel to scale the page down, then squint for a little while.

[Fool Me Twice]

Sorry, didn't realize the large image was causing problems. I don't mind annoying that one guy, but I can see how it can be a general nuisance. I've changed it to a link (yeah, I know, a little late).

[Hunter Green]

Daniel: Time, it's like a street. Alright, we can move forward on that street, we can move in reverse, but we cannot - ever - create a new street. If we try to do anything different we will fail. Every time. Whatever happened.. ..happened.
I heard this as "string", but "street" works just as well or better in the analogy.

[jkeegan]

I didn't check the closed captioning, I can (although if I remember even that's not always canon), but according to www.lost-tv.com it's neither:

http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/s5e01.html

They have it as 'Time, it is like a stream'

[DevdogAZ]

I heard street.

Is this going to become another Goth/Gaunt?

[gchance]

Daniel said you can go back, you can go forth, but you can't create a new one.

Follow the logic. Why are you moving down a string? Why are you moving forward AND back in a stream?

It's street, guys.

Greg

[hapdrastic]

I didn't check the closed captioning, I can (although if I remember even that's not always canon), but according to www.lost-tv.com it's neither:

http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/s5e01.html

They have it as 'Time, it is like a stream'

Stream is what I heard...everyone else I watched it with heard street. Nice to have the transcripts back me up for once - I always hear things wrong.

[JYoung]

Daniel said you can go back, you can go forth, but you can't create a new one.

Follow the logic. Why are you moving down a string? Why are you moving forward AND back in a stream?

It's street, guys.

Greg


Hey, Spock once described time as a river.

Stream works for me.

[gchance]

Hey, Spock once described time as a river.

Stream works for me.

Neil Peart said that time is a gypsy caravan that steals away in the night, to leave you stranded in dreamland.

But that was too long for Daniel, he was running out of time.

Greg

[barbeedoll]

That's for the benefit of the portion of the audience who have never seen a record.

Funny, funny comment. Except it's probably so true. Even an 8 track would go over the heads of lots of the audience.

Barbeedoll

[TAsunder]

Stream makes no sense when considering the rest of the analogy about forks and exits.

[DevdogAZ]

Stream makes no sense when considering the rest of the analogy about forks and exits.
While I agree that it was street and not stream, I don't think there was anything said about forks and exits.

[TAsunder]

While I agree that it was street and not stream, I don't think there was anything said about forks and exits.

Not exact words, just the meaning of the analogy. You can't ever create a new stream? Why not... that's easy. Creating a new street is a lot harder for someone traveling on it.

[aindik]

Funny, funny comment. Except it's probably so true. Even an 8 track would go over the heads of lots of the audience.

Barbeedoll

I would think 8-tracks were dead long before records were.

[barbeedoll]

I would think 8-tracks were dead long before records were.

In my experience, the technology timeline was wax cylinders, 78 rpm records, 45 rpm records, 33 1/3 rpm records, 8 track, cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods (and their ilk). Obviously most of these overlapped each other.

But I'm sure someone in the thread will have more scientific information.

Barbeedoll

[BeanMeScot]

I thought it was "string". I guess any straight thing will do.

[jkeegan]

Neil Peart said that time is a gypsy caravan that steals away in the night, to leave you stranded in dreamland.

But that was too long for Daniel, he was running out of time.

Greg

I let my past go too fast
No time to pause
If I could slow it all down
Like some captain, whose ship runs aground
I can wait until the tide comes around

(Time stand still)
I'm not looking back
But I want to look around me now
(Time stand still)
See more of the people and the places that surround me now
Freeze this moment a little bit longer
Make each impression a little bit stronger
Freeze this motion a little bit longer
The innocence slips away
The innocence slips away...

[tewcewl]

The closed captions have it as street.

[jkeegan]

The mighty ocean
Dances with the moon
The silent forest
Echoes with the loon

Time and motion
Live and love and dream
Eyes connect like interstellar beams

Superman in super nature
Needs all the comfort he can find
Spontaneous emotion
And the long enduring kind

[lew]

In my experience, the technology timeline was wax cylinders, 78 rpm records, 45 rpm records, 33 1/3 rpm records, 8 track, cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods (and their ilk). Obviously most of these overlapped each other.

But I'm sure someone in the thread will have more scientific information.

Barbeedoll

The point is there are still stores that sell records. There are even some new "vinyl LPs" being released. Many stores sell a turntable that lets you convert your records to mp3 format.

I don't think there is similar interest in the 8 track format.

[aindik]

In my experience, the technology timeline was wax cylinders, 78 rpm records, 45 rpm records, 33 1/3 rpm records, 8 track, cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods (and their ilk). Obviously most of these overlapped each other.

But I'm sure someone in the thread will have more scientific information.

Barbeedoll

I was thinking about the order in which things died, not the order in which they arrived.

[BrandonRe]

In my experience, the technology timeline was wax cylinders, 78 rpm records, 45 rpm records, 33 1/3 rpm records, 8 track, cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods (and their ilk). Obviously most of these overlapped each other.

But I'm sure someone in the thread will have more scientific information.

Barbeedoll

That may be the order in which things were commercially introduced and gained a mass audience, but it's not the order of peoples experience looking back form today. 8-tracks began to fall out of favor in the late 70's if my memory is right. records, on the other hand, only dwindled significantly in the late 80's/early 90's. And there is a significant number of records still sold today. Not so with 8-tracks.

So, I'll say that those who wouldn't know an LP because their experience has been with cds and newer technology would be even less likely to know what an 8-track is.

[gchance]

I let my past go too fast
No time to pause
If I could slow it all down
Like some captain, whose ship runs aground
I can wait until the tide comes around

(Time stand still)
I'm not looking back
But I want to look around me now
(Time stand still)
See more of the people and the places that surround me now
Freeze this moment a little bit longer
Make each impression a little bit stronger
Freeze this motion a little bit longer
The innocence slips away
The innocence slips away...

Experience slips away.

The music is reversible, but time... turn back! Turn back! Turn back!

Greg

[smak]

Is it just me that is kind of assuming that when dead Locke gets back to the island he'll become live Locke?

-smak-

[gchance]

Is it just me that is kind of assuming that when dead Locke gets back to the island he'll become live Locke?

-smak-

I've assumed that since the moment we saw him in the casket.

Greg

[Rob Helmerichs]

Well, that would be unrealistic!



:D

[Rosincrans]

I can handle the "If it didn't happen, it can't happen" angle, even though it's not my favorite type of time travel story, but I hope they keep it realistic as to why things don't happen.

We know Sawyer can't meet Desmond, because he already knows he didn't (ignoring the fact that Desmond is "special"). I think their needs to be a reason why he didn't. In this case it's because Faraday talked Sawyer out of it while Desmond was still putting on his contamination suit. That makes sense to me. But if they start behaving as if there is some magical force keeping them from doing what they would naturally do, the story will get tiresome to me.

[jkeegan]

expose dialog from the cc:

Previously on expose..

(tires squeal)
(woman) It looks like the Scorpion is taking over all the Cobra's business.
(woman) You want me to work with Tsunami, the dragon lady of van nuys?
I'm here to capture the scorpion, so if you've got a problem with that, you can go work stage 3.
(gunshot)
(man) She's hit!
(grunts)
(people screaming)

[DevdogAZ]

I can handle the "If it didn't happen, it can't happen" angle, even though it's not my favorite type of time travel story, but I hope they keep it realistic as to why things don't happen.

We know Sawyer can't meet Desmond, because he already knows he didn't (ignoring the fact that Desmond is "special"). I think their needs to be a reason why he didn't. In this case it's because Faraday talked Sawyer out of it while Desmond was still putting on his contamination suit. That makes sense to me. But if they start behaving as if there is some magical force keeping them from doing what they would naturally do, the story will get tiresome to me.
I agree, but I hope it doesn't even go that far. I hope the instances of them having opportunities to meet up with themselves or others in the past are few and far between. Honestly, I hope that they are able to stop the "time skipping" of the island within the next episode or two and we don't have these potential paradoxes all season long.

[Rosincrans]

expose dialog from the cc:

Previously on expose..

(tires squeal)
(woman) It looks like the Scorpion is taking over all the Cobra's business.
(woman) You want me to work with Tsunami, the dragon lady of van nuys?
I'm here to capture the scorpion, so if you've got a problem with that, you can go work stage 3.
(gunshot)
(man) She's hit!
(grunts)
(people screaming)

Razzle Dazzle!

[jkeegan]

I can handle the "If it didn't happen, it can't happen" angle, even though it's not my favorite type of time travel story, but I hope they keep it realistic as to why things don't happen.

We know Sawyer can't meet Desmond, because he already knows he didn't (ignoring the fact that Desmond is "special"). I think their needs to be a reason why he didn't. In this case it's because Faraday talked Sawyer out of it while Desmond was still putting on his contamination suit. That makes sense to me. But if they start behaving as if there is some magical force keeping them from doing what they would naturally do, the story will get tiresome to me.yeah I wasn't a huge fan of "the universe has a way of course correcting", and I've been hoping we'd see an intelligence (the island? Our castmembers?) behind those corrections somehow..

[hefe]

The closed captions have it as street.

The closed captions aren't infallible. We had a big discussion about that in the "we're the survivors of Oceanic 815" days. And had some insight from an actual captioner on the board. Usually the captioners are just listening like the rest of us, and sometimes make mistakes.

[wprager]

I can handle the "If it didn't happen, it can't happen" angle, even though it's not my favorite type of time travel story, but I hope they keep it realistic as to why things don't happen.

We know Sawyer can't meet Desmond, because he already knows he didn't (ignoring the fact that Desmond is "special"). I think their needs to be a reason why he didn't. In this case it's because Faraday talked Sawyer out of it while Desmond was still putting on his contamination suit. That makes sense to me. But if they start behaving as if there is some magical force keeping them from doing what they would naturally do, the story will get tiresome to me.

Remember when Michael couldn't shoot himself? I wonder if it's because he had already blown up the freighter in the future. Which means that someone from the future would have had to have been there, someone who knew that Michael could not have killed himself at that time. Except that Mr. Friendly died before the freighter ever go to the Island. I'm confused.

[mqpickles]

Stream is what I heard...everyone else I watched it with heard street. Nice to have the transcripts back me up for once - I always hear things wrong.

Hey, Spock once described time as a river.

Stream works for me.

Stream makes no sense when considering the rest of the analogy about forks and exits.

/Dr. Egon Spengler/ Don't cross the streams. /Dr. Egon Spengler/

[Hunter Green]

Why are you moving down a string?
Dunno, maybe you should ask Dr. Samuel Beckett. :)

[barbeedoll]

The closed captions aren't infallible. We had a big discussion about that in the "we're the survivors of Oceanic 815" days. And had some insight from an actual captioner on the board. Usually the captioners are just listening like the rest of us, and sometimes make mistakes.

I agree that the closed captioning is often flawed. We take great sport in watching shows and hearing the dialogue and then seeing what some poor intern typing the closed captioning has used for spelling or misunderstood words to try to convey it in text.

Barbeedoll

[DevdogAZ]

I agree that the closed captioning is often flawed. We take great sport in watching shows and hearing the dialogue and then seeing what some poor intern typing the closed captioning has used for spelling or misunderstood words to try to convey it in text.

Barbeedoll
I think you need to read some of trainman's descriptions of the captioning process if you think it is done by "some poor intern." Having said that, I agree that captioners make mistakes. It's inevitable. But in this case, I'm pretty sure that "street" was correct. Stream or string just make no sense in the context.

[Johnny Dancing]

That's for the benefit of the portion of the audience who have never seen a record.

I had to pause and explain to my 13 year old son about records skipping, why they skipped and how we fixed them.

Skipping risk and all, I really want a to buy a high quality turntable one day to play a few choice records on my sound system - can't beat the sound.

[3D]

I know it's late in the thread to throw an idea out there, but here goes: I alluded to this in an earlier post but didn't really elaborate. Constants don't necessarily travel both ways. For instance, IIRC, Desmond is Daniel's constant, but Daniel is not Desmond's constant. I beleive that Penny was actually Desmond's constant (haven't watched that episode since it first aired but I'm almost certain that this is how it turned out). Point being, Desmond was able to travel back in time and create the constant relationship with Daniel so that the now time travelling in the past Daniel is able to communicate, via dreams or newly discovered memories, with 2007 off the island Desmond. This all resulted from Desmond and Daniel having some type of meaningful exchange when Desmond, for lack of a better phrase, mind time travelled to the past.

What if Daniel is able to harness the islands power, possibly by getting in close proximity to the orchid (i.e., the frozen donkey wheel), so as to send Sawyer, Juliet, and company to mind time travel in the same manner that Desmond did? Might they also be able to have a meaningful exchange with one of the Oceanic 6 in their pre-island life (ala Desmond and Daniel), thereby creating a new constant relationship? This would allow them, when in the proper island time, to communicate with the 2007 Oceanic 6 by creating new memories through exchanges with the Oceanic 6's island counterparts. I'm sure everyone remembers the crossovers we saw in flashbacks from seasons 1 and two? Perhaps we will return to some of those, but this time an actual exchange might take place.

[philw1776]

Well, that would be unrealistic!



:D

Methinks possibly Locke was 'spider bit' to induce a deathlike appearance. Why Ben's concern for the body? It would give meaning to the two stupid dead characters from a couple seasons ago. Ah Nikki. How could i forget?

[gchance]

Methinks possibly Locke was 'spider bit' to induce a deathlike appearance. Why Ben's concern for the body? It would give meaning to the two stupid dead characters from a couple seasons ago. Ah Nikki. How could i forget?

The body's bury-ready. When Jack went to see Bentham at the funeral home and nobody was there, the casket was basically there for a body viewing, if anyone so desired. At that point, it's been embalmed.

Once embalmed, I do believe you're dead and not paralyzed.

Greg

[JYoung]

The body's bury-ready. When Jack went to see Bentham at the funeral home and nobody was there, the casket was basically there for a body viewing, if anyone so desired. At that point, it's been embalmed.

Once embalmed, I do believe you're dead and not paralyzed.

Greg

Unless Ben paid off the mortician.

[3D]

Unless Ben paid off the mortician.

Or if Bentham is Jewish.

[Trent Bates]

The Zombies would disagree.

[TAsunder]

Jack's dad came back to life on the island... maybe. Stands to reason that Locke could too, maybe.

[hefe]

Jack's dad came back to life on the island... maybe. Stands to reason that Locke could too, maybe.

I'll give that a definite maybe.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I don't think Christian "came back to life"; I think there's some force/entity on the island that takes the form of dead people who are important to the people it is talking/appearing to.

(Which is why I think Clare is dead...)

[aindik]

I don't think Christian "came back to life"; I think there's some force/entity on the island that takes the form of dead people who are important to the people it is talking/appearing to.

(Which is why I think Clare is dead...)

So, his missing body is just a coincidence?

Is this the same force that showed Boone to Locke? Dave to Hurley? Shannon to Sayid? Walt to pretty much everyone? (Except, Walt isn't dead). Is this the same force that shows Charlie and Anna-Lucia to Hurley, Claire to Kate, and Christian to Jack off the island? Who else isn't really there?

[Fleegle]

We've seen the smoke monster take on the form of Eko's brother, so I'd say yes to all of your situations except the Walt ones. And possibly the ones involving Hurley. I'm still not sure if those were hallucinations or not.

[5thcrewman]

Were there pop-ups in the original airing of 'The Lie?'

The replay last night, (1/28) had them.

[aindik]

Were there pop-ups in the original airing of 'The Lie?'

The replay last night, (1/28) had them.

There are never popup in the original airing. There are almost always popups in the reruns, at least recently.

[DevdogAZ]

Were there pop-ups in the original airing of 'The Lie?'

The replay last night, (1/28) had them.
No, the pop-ups are never there in the original airings, but are usually there when they re-air something. It's their way of getting people to watch the same episode twice, so they can see if they missed any crucial information the first time.

[Alpinemaps]

I didn't watch, but there were pop ups last night. There was a potentially important one...

(Spoiler for The Lie, and for Jughead)
The popup at the end identified Mrs Hawking as Eloise Hawking. The girl that held Daniel at gunpoint in 1954 was identified as Ellie - which could be short for Eloise.

[GaryGnu]

I've read all 12 pages, and I have a question. Some posts here seem to be fixating on whether or not Sawyer could have made Desmond answer the hatch door. Why is that significant? Desmond is just a person on the island at that time. The Lost folks traveling through time have come into contact with many other people since then, so hasn't that essentially changed what happened?

[jkeegan]

I've read all 12 pages, and I have a question. Some posts here seem to be fixating on whether or not Sawyer could have made Desmond answer the hatch door. Why is that significant? Desmond is just a person on the island at that time. The Lost folks traveling through time have come into contact with many other people since then, so hasn't that essentially changed what happened?As far as the Daniel/Sawyer conversation goes, they wouldn't even need a person there for the gist of the talk. Let's pretend that in season 2 they showed a big piñata outside the hatch which looked like it had been there for sixty years, and in season 3 they finally smashed it open and ate the candy. Sawyer time travels back fifty years and says "hey i'm hungry, I want candy". Daniel is telling him not to waste his time trying to get the candy, because they already know what's gonna happen - somehow the piñata remains unopened until season 3. If, however, Sawyer remembers that next to the piñata had been lots of empty beer cans from the fifties on the ground, it might be worth his while to go look for an unopened case of beer there.. He may just drink it now and leave the empty cans he always remembered seeing.

[Hunter Green]

One of the many time-travel roleplaying games I've played over the years used this same approach. Anything you already knew happened, happened. You couldn't go back in time to change it. However, you could go back and change what those events actually meant.

So if you just saw one of your friends get shot, you can't travel back in time to prevent him getting shot. He already was shot, that's done. However, you can travel back in time to make sure that just around the corner there's some EMTs who are about to jump out. Or you can travel back in time to arrange that it wasn't really him that got shot, but a dummy rigged with fake blood-packs, etc. These things are only possible as long as you don't already know something that contradicts them: for instance, you can't use the dummy approach if your friend was just talking, unless you can get the dummy to talk, too.

In this game, then, the key currency is knowledge: the more you know for sure, the less you can do. Time agents tend to avoid telling each other anything they don't have to know, to avoid backing them into corners.

I'm finding myself amused at the thought that this is the real reason why, for the first three or four seasons, none of the Losties ever told each other anything.

[jkeegan]

In this game, then, the key currency is knowledge: the more you know for sure, the less you can do. Time agents tend to avoid telling each other anything they don't have to know, to avoid backing them into corners.

I'm finding myself amused at the thought that this is the real reason why, for the first three or four seasons, none of the Losties ever told each other anything.:D

[gchance]

I'm finding myself amused at the thought that this is the real reason why, for the first three or four seasons, none of the Losties ever told each other anything.

DUDE!

You've figured it all out. They aren't a--holes after all!

Of course, that would depend on all of them knowing the "rules". :)

Greg

[Rob Helmerichs]

In this game, then, the key currency is knowledge: the more you know for sure, the less you can do. Time agents tend to avoid telling each other anything they don't have to know, to avoid backing them into corners.
Well, technically it wouldn't matter whether they know it or not; if they didn't know that something happened, then they just wouldn't know why whatever they tried wouldn't work. So the game is kind of cheating, in that any number of things could have happened, depending on what the player does. Whereas in "reality," what happened happened and the player's action could only work if that is the precise and only thing that happened. In which case, the more knowledge the better; one's actions are no less prescribed, but at least one has a better understanding of the exact prescription.

[unicorngoddess]

So if you just saw one of your friends get shot, you can't travel back in time to prevent him getting shot. He already was shot, that's done. However, you can travel back in time to make sure that just around the corner there's some EMTs who are about to jump out. Or you can travel back in time to arrange that it wasn't really him that got shot, but a dummy rigged with fake blood-packs, etc. These things are only possible as long as you don't already know something that contradicts them: for instance, you can't use the dummy approach if your friend was just talking, unless you can get the dummy to talk, too.


Exactly like Back to the Future! Marty couldn't get back to the mall in time to stop Doc from being shot because he was already shot! It was a known fact to him. Essentially, that HAD to happen to cause Marty to freak out, get in the Delorian and go back to 1955.

However, he didn't know that Doc would be wearing a bullet proof vest, so it didn't really change anything for Marty.

It all makes sense now.

[BitbyBlit]

Well, technically it wouldn't matter whether they know it or not; if they didn't know that something happened, then they just wouldn't know why whatever they tried wouldn't work. So the game is kind of cheating, in that any number of things could have happened, depending on what the player does. Whereas in "reality," what happened happened and the player's action could only work if that is the precise and only thing that happened. In which case, the more knowledge the better; one's actions are no less prescribed, but at least one has a better understanding of the exact prescription.

Exactly. If the past cannot be changed, and time travel is possible, then that means all events are fixed, and our lives are predestined to go down a certain path.

Consider a person, Person A, living in 1900. Person A makes various decisions in his life that ultimately lead up to an event, Event 1, happening in 1950. Now, suppose there is another person, Person B, who learns about this event in the year 2000. It doesn't matter how much this person learns about it, the event already happened in a particular way in the past, and no matter what he does or learns about it, nothing will change.

The question is, can we define a common point where everyone could agree that Event 1 became fixed? The answer is yes. From everyone's perspective, everything leading up to Event 1 happened first, and everything following from Event 1 happened later.

But suppose that Person B travels back in time to 1850, and does something which we'll call Event 2. Person A then learns about Event 2 in 1900. Again, no matter what Person A does or learns about Event 2, he can't change anything because it happened in his past.

Now the question is, at what point did Event 2 become fixed? Well, we could say it became fixed in 1850 when the event occurred. But for Person B living in the year 2000 before time-traveling, those events haven't been experienced yet. In a sense, those events are both in his past and future. And even for Person A, who didn't time travel at all, the events after Person B's arrival in 1850 are in his past, but the events leading up to Person B's time travel are in the future.

So some of Person A's past is in Person B's future, and some of Person B's past is in A's future. Now there can no longer be a common point that is in everybody's past where everyone could agree that an event became fixed. Thus, if an event is fixed, the only possible explanation is that it never became fixed at any point in time, but was fixed to begin with.

But if all events are fixed, then we have no free will. And we are prevented from doing anything else not by any external force, but because we have no ability to do otherwise.

[Hunter Green]

Well, technically it wouldn't matter whether they know it or not;... So the game is kind of cheating...
It certainly doesn't work as a theory of determinism, but it's entirely usable in a roleplaying game and far more internally consistent than most ways people handle time travel. (You think it's bad when scriptwriters use it sloppily, wait until you see a group of players who can time travel at will finding ingenious ways to beat every challenge. Why ever lose a fight if you can just go back and bring more troops this time?)

Anyway, it almost makes sense except the part about agents not telling each other things. Whether you know something happened or not doesn't really matter, if I know. That part is explained as being more of a "superstition" than a reality of temporal physics. However, it happens to be a convenient one for the players. If you couldn't change anything that anyone anywhere knew, time travel becomes pretty unuseful. So the idea that you can't change what anyone in the game knows is the same as saying you can't change anything the fictional audience would know, if they were watching the game as a movie. It protects narrative, though perhaps not physics!

Which is why it's very like the Faraday Postulate on Lost. Serves the same purpose, too.

Exactly like Back to the Future!
I sure hope you're kidding... :)

[TAsunder]

So the idea that you can't change what anyone in the game knows is the same as saying you can't change anything the fictional audience would know, if they were watching the game as a movie. It protects narrative, though perhaps not physics!

It only protects the narrative to a limited degree, though. As a viewer, we have seen only a small percentage of what goes on in each character's lives. Scenes are cut often in a way that would allow writers to insert stuff before and after to change the meaning of a lot of scenes.

While a retcon can be done very cleverly, if you do it too often, viewers will lose interest because no matter what they see, the scene could completely change meaning a week later. That is why the Lost writers have to tread carefully when doing such things lest they lose the faith of their audience.

[gchance]

Exactly like Back to the Future!

Why ever lose a fight if you can just go back and bring more troops this time?)

Which is exactly what I said while watching BttF II the first time. Marty asks Doc, "What if we don't succeed?" and Doc responds, "We MUST succeed." Why? Go back and do it again differently until you succeed, man!

It only protects the narrative to a limited degree, though. As a viewer, we have seen only a small percentage of what goes on in each character's lives. Scenes are cut often in a way that would allow writers to insert stuff before and after to change the meaning of a lot of scenes.

While a retcon can be done very cleverly, if you do it too often, viewers will lose interest because no matter what they see, the scene could completely change meaning a week later. That is why the Lost writers have to tread carefully when doing such things lest they lose the faith of their audience.

You mean like, when adding Nikki & Paolo into scenes?

Greg

[jkeegan]

You mean like, when adding Nikki & Paolo into scenes?

GregC'mon, anyone complaining about Nikki & Paolo after seeing the Expose episode isn't letting themself enjoy the joke. They were making fun of how other shows that don't plan things out just randomly throw people in that we're supposed to know (like Cousin Oliver on the Brady Bunch). They then proceeded to use the joke to give us info we'd never have had otherwise (seeing Ben & Juliette in the ? hatch, etc), and finished it off by killing them off in an immensely satisfying way, which wouldn't have been satisfying at all if their introduction hadn't been so other-show-ish. The whole Nikki & Paolo thing was %$#@ing brilliant.

[gchance]

Oh, I didn't think shoving Nikki & Paolo into those previous episodes wasn't brilliant, in fact I was one of the few who enjoyed it when it aired. I was more or less making a joke. :)

Greg

[3D]

Plus, if the theory that Locke's "death" is really just an illusion ala the spider bites, then the Expose episode actually wound up containing a crucial setup.

[stellie93]

Exactly. If the past cannot be changed, and time travel is possible, then that means all events are fixed, and our lives are predestined to go down a certain path.


But if all events are fixed, then we have no free will. And we are prevented from doing anything else not by any external force, but because we have no ability to do otherwise.

Not following your conclusion here. We have free will the first time we are presented with a choice--we just don't have free will to go back and change things that have already been fixed. Under these "rules," a time traveler is just an observer. He knows how part of eternity will unfold, so to maintain any stability, he must not be able to change it. The linear time line being set in stone actually protects your free will by not letting others move around and take away your original choices. :confused:

[jkeegan]

Oh, I didn't think shoving Nikki & Paolo into those previous episodes wasn't brilliant, in fact I was one of the few who enjoyed it when it aired. I was more or less making a joke. :)

GregOk good. :) I just had someone at a party the other night bemoan Nikki & Paolo and I had to defend it.

Plus, we get to see Billy Dee Williams! :)

[cherry ghost]

One of the many time-travel roleplaying games I've played over the years used this same approach. Anything you already knew happened, happened. You couldn't go back in time to change it. However, you could go back and change what those events actually meant.

So if you just saw one of your friends get shot, you can't travel back in time to prevent him getting shot. He already was shot, that's done. However, you can travel back in time to make sure that just around the corner there's some EMTs who are about to jump out. Or you can travel back in time to arrange that it wasn't really him that got shot, but a dummy rigged with fake blood-packs, etc. These things are only possible as long as you don't already know something that contradicts them: for instance, you can't use the dummy approach if your friend was just talking, unless you can get the dummy to talk, too.

In this game, then, the key currency is knowledge: the more you know for sure, the less you can do. Time agents tend to avoid telling each other anything they don't have to know, to avoid backing them into corners.

I'm finding myself amused at the thought that this is the real reason why, for the first three or four seasons, none of the Losties ever told each other anything.

http://www.lostisagame.com/

[gchance]

http://www.lostisagame.com/

I don't buy it, haven't bought it since they came up with that theory. Plus that's not what Hunter is trying to say. :)

Greg

[cherry ghost]

I don't buy it,
Greg

Me either, but thought he might like to take a look if he hadn't seen it already.

[BitbyBlit]

Not following your conclusion here. We have free will the first time we are presented with a choice--we just don't have free will to go back and change things that have already been fixed. Under these "rules," a time traveler is just an observer. He knows how part of eternity will unfold, so to maintain any stability, he must not be able to change it. The linear time line being set in stone actually protects your free will by not letting others move around and take away your original choices. :confused:

How do you define the "first time" you are presented with a choice? Without time travel, everyone affected by your choice (directly or indirectly) is affected after you make the choice, and thus your choice happens first.

But with time travel, some that are affected by your choice could end up traveling to before you made that choice. Thus, some effects of your choice will have already happened by the time you make it. But if the effects of your choice have already happened, then you can't choose anything that results in different effects without violating the principle that events cannot be changed. Therefore, your choice is predetermined.