TiVo should grow into a Media Extender

[scottleslie]

TiVO HD is really good a recording and playing back TV shows. Everybody would like to have one box that "does it all". Since TiVo has a huge lead in TV, this would be the logical expansion of the TiVo business. But TiVo is so bad at non-TV media, that I must buy another product for photos, music, home movies, and other media.

Every non-TV feature is WAY behind the competition such as:
1) Windows Media Extenders from HP, Linksys, Netgear and D-Link
2) Open Media Extenders such as Sage HD Theater, Mediagate, etc.

They are better because:
1) These devices "stream" HD video live from a PC, NAS or Server regardless of the format. TiVo HD "uploads" the massive file to its hard disk (if there's enough space) very slowly so you can eventually watch it (which rarely completes successfully unless it's a "clean" TiVo file.). Wrong approach, streaming (many foramts) is the only way!
2) The User Interface for navigating media in TiVo including recorded TV is terrible. Check out the other devices. Multi-level, multi-dimension, speedy navigation. The TiVo UI needs to be re-designed for multimedia, not just a bolt-on like you keep doing.
3) TiVo HD does not support "Windows Media Connect" or Windows Home Server in any other way. There is a guy that offers a free "Tivo Publisher" that installs and runs as a service. I am able to "upload" video (sometimes works) using the server which is good, but I want to stream it!
4) These products will eventually kill TiVo as they catch up on TV and you guys have nothing to compete with.

[pilotbob]

HAve you seen the TiVo desktop software?

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/whatsnew/tivodesktop/

BOb

[bkdtv]

scott,

Forum member moyekj wrote the tivostream application (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=403066), which will stream (not copy) MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 AP files to the TivoHD and TiVo Series3. Other video formats like AVI and DIVX are still not directly supported, and thus require on-the-fly transcoding to a compatible format by a computer.

Part of the problem, I think, is that the Broadcom DVR CPUs used in the TivoHD (and most other DVRs) don't have the hardware (or firmware support) necessary to decode popular video formats like AVI and DIVX. These integrated SoCs also tend to provide relatively low performance and memory bandwidth, which serves to limit network throughput. The TivoHD is based on the Broadcom BCM7401 (PDF datasheet) (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf).

It's worthwhile to note that Broadcom recently announced new, faster versions of its DVR CPUs which tout support for more formats, including DIVX. Compare the datasheet above to that for the new BCM7403 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7403-PB02-R.pdf) and BCM7405 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7405-PB04-R.pdf).

[ZeoTiVo]

It's worthwhile to note that Broadcom recently announced new, faster versions of its DVR CPUs which tout support for more formats, including DIVX. Compare the datasheet above to that for the new BCM7403 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7403-PB02-R.pdf) and BCM7405 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7405-PB04-R.pdf).

I hope the series 4 gets that new chip and supports more formats.

in the meantime - I rip DVDs to my PC and renux then with video-redo. I also pull in other fomats like quicktime and convert them to mpeg2.
Anything on my PC copies to the Tivo at better then real time using pyTiVo on a wired network (not interested in streaming for this as I have large drives in the TiVo DVRs)

Photos and music are indeed plain jane on the TiVo but serve well for me. HME apps are out tehre if you want more.

I copy shows between my TiVo DVRs at better then real time.

I stream you tube and Netflix with no hassles on my TiVo HD.

In short - without paying anything more than I have for years and putting in a modicum of work on my PC video files - My family has an easily used media server at every TV in the house that can watch any file we have available.

more streaming stuff would be awesome in the form of Hulu and network streams and I hope to see some of that come along in 2009.

sure the interface could be jazzed up but that is very secondary to me and I find the current interface has a really nice KISS about it that lets even my 10 year old use it pretty easily

[johnny99]

Is there any existing software that will allow me to play arbitrary internet media streams on my Tivo. I am thinking in particular of Slacker.com internet radio and Hulu.com internet video.

I do have the Tivo desktop software, but that seems to be entirely about media files on my PC, not media streams from the internet.

Thanks.

[ciper]

Read this http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=397609

[scottleslie]

bkdtv,
Thanks for the insight, I'll take a look at this solution you suggest. Have you heard of TiVo Publisher? It's a Windows Home Server add-on that acts like Tivo Desktop but suffers from the upload model instead of using a streaming approach.

http://durfee.net/software/

I hope the TiVo folks think about these Media Extenders as their competition when they design future products.

scott,

Forum member moyekj wrote the tivostream application (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=403066), which will stream (not copy) MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 AP files to the TivoHD and TiVo Series3. Other video formats like AVI and DIVX are still not directly supported, and thus require on-the-fly transcoding to a compatible format by a computer.

Part of the problem, I think, is that the Broadcom DVR CPUs used in the TivoHD (and most other DVRs) don't have the hardware (or firmware support) necessary to decode popular video formats like AVI and DIVX. These integrated SoCs also tend to provide relatively low performance and memory bandwidth, which serves to limit network throughput. The TivoHD is based on the Broadcom BCM7401 (PDF datasheet) (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf).

It's worthwhile to note that Broadcom recently announced new, faster versions of its DVR CPUs which tout support for more formats, including DIVX. Compare the datasheet above to that for the new BCM7403 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7403-PB02-R.pdf) and BCM7405 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7405-PB04-R.pdf).

[scottleslie]

Hi Bob - Yes, I have used TiVo desktop since I got my TiVo HD last Feb. It really comes up short (as described in my original post).

HAve you seen the TiVo desktop software?

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/whatsnew/tivodesktop/

BOb

[ZeoTiVo]

Is there any existing software that will allow me to play arbitrary internet media streams on my Tivo. I am thinking in particular of Slacker.com internet radio and Hulu.com internet video.

I do have the Tivo desktop software, but that seems to be entirely about media files on my PC, not media streams from the internet.

Thanks.

no HuLu on TiVo yet. Seems anyone that figures out how to scrape video off Hulu gets stopped quick enough to make 3rd party tries not worth it :(

Hopefully HulU and TiVo will make some deal - it seems a natural. There are other internet radio channels under the HME apps but not slacker. Slacker would seem a good business fit as well as that would generate interest in the hardware slacker that has been coming out lately.

[lafos]

bkdtv,
Thanks for the insight, I'll take a look at this solution you suggest. Have you heard of TiVo Publisher? It's a Windows Home Server add-on that acts like Tivo Desktop but suffers from the upload model instead of using a streaming approach.

http://durfee.net/software/

I hope the TiVo folks think about these Media Extenders as their competition when they design future products.

I use this on a WHS system. I use it for ripped DVDs and for TiVo files transferred to my PC and then stripped of commercials. For TiVo files, I get somewhat better than real-time. Ripped full DVDs take longer. I can rip the files, shrink with DVD shrink, and then can get faster transfers. Very useful program.

[scottleslie]

I assume you mean the TiVo Publisher. For HD, it's not close to Real-Time, but neither is TiVo Desktop. Also, files I edit with VideoReDo finish uploading only about half the time. Really would like to stream HD, but my guess is TiVo really can't handle it, maybe next gen if they're planning it right.

I use this on a WHS system. I use it for ripped DVDs and for TiVo files transferred to my PC and then stripped of commercials. For TiVo files, I get somewhat better than real-time. Ripped full DVDs take longer. I can rip the files, shrink with DVD shrink, and then can get faster transfers. Very useful program.

[lafos]

I assume you mean the TiVo Publisher. For HD, it's not close to Real-Time, but neither is TiVo Desktop. Also, files I edit with VideoReDo finish uploading only about half the time. Really would like to stream HD, but my guess is TiVo really can't handle it, maybe next gen if they're planning it right.

Correct, I'm using it for SD only. I can transfer HD at better than real-time between my hardwired TiVos, and just a bit slower on the wireless, which also has to pass through a powerline network segment.

Streaming HD would take more processing power than the TiVo can handle. It does not store mpg files on its drive, so it has a translation layer when transferring either to or from a PC.

[scottleslie]

Interesting, I have a very clean Cat 6 network yet cannot get close to Real-Time with HD. Thinking about going with SageTV for WHS and their new HD Home Theater box for the TV Room next to the TiVoHD.

Correct, I'm using it for SD only. I can transfer HD at better than real-time between my hardwired TiVos, and just a bit slower on the wireless, which also has to pass through a powerline network segment.

Streaming HD would take more processing power than the TiVo can handle. It does not store mpg files on its drive, so it has a translation layer when transferring either to or from a PC.

[dylanemcgregor]

I have to say, while I understand why people prefer streaming in some applications, I definitely prefer the transfer model.

1) I've never had streaming work for any content on any network, without at least some buffering, and buffering is a huge pet peeve of mine.

2) I have a much bigger drive in TiVo then I do in my computers (which are laptops, so it is harder to upgrade for a decent price). I really wish I could store all of my media (video and audio) on the TiVo and just transfer to another device as needed.

[bkdtv]

Interesting, I have a very clean Cat 6 network yet cannot get close to Real-Time with HD. Thinking about going with SageTV for WHS and their new HD Home Theater box for the TV Room next to the TiVoHD.TivoHD throughput to and from a computer varies from 8-12Mbps, depending on what channels are tuned. Some HD channels use less bandwidth than others; some cable providers also apply more compression than others. A channel might be 8Mbps on one provider and 13Mbps on another; the former would transfer in real time on the TivoHD while the latter would not.

As alluded to above, throughput to and from PCs is significantly lower than the transfer throughput between two different TivoHDs (around 20Mbps), because TiVo does not store recordings as single MPGs on its hard drive. When you transfer a program to or from the TiVo, it is remuxed into the proprietary format used on the hard drive. No such remuxing is necessary when transferring recordings between TivoHD DVRs.

The SageTV HD extender is a nice product to remotely access videos from a media center. It supports just about every format under the sun.

[lafos]

I hadn't heard of SageTV. Just took a look at their site. Seems like a nice box, but with S3 or HD TiVos at all the key TV's, it'd be a tough sell to the wife. When transferring HD content from the WHS to the TiVo, I'll just plan ahead. I don't do it much, just because MRV is fast enough, and transferring and editing HD content is time-consuming. DVD quality is good enough for me now.

[ZeoTiVo]

transferring and editing HD content is time-consuming. DVD quality is good enough for me now.
That is in a nutshell why I have not gone all into HD already. We sometimes forget how new all this media movement stuff is.

I find that using analog with a clean signal and then ripping DVD quality movies to copy to the TiVo is very effective and with Video-redo run on the rip to clean it up I have had 100% realiable copy to the TiVo.

For myself I would love to find a streaming app that can grab the streaming stuff like HuLu and stream it to my TiVo. Bonus points fora good interface that lets me see what is available using my TiVo remote and TV, but this stuff is not compelling enough to me to wnat to place yet another box by the TV to have to care for and feed.

[kb7sei]

I have to say, while I understand why people prefer streaming in some applications, I definitely prefer the transfer model.

1) I've never had streaming work for any content on any network, without at least some buffering, and buffering is a huge pet peeve of mine.


You've never had the right devices then. I run MythTV at home in addition to TiVo. Everything for Myth is wired and running on Gigabit. I can stream HD to any box in the house that wants the data and it is really fast. I can stream full HD without noticeable buffering. There is ALWAYS buffering, what matters is how long it takes and if the machines and network can keep up.

Also, the HDHomeRun can stream 2 HD ATSC streams over 100M networking without any problems. ATSC is about 20Mbit/sec per channel.


2) I have a much bigger drive in TiVo then I do in my computers (which are laptops, so it is harder to upgrade for a decent price). I really wish I could store all of my media (video and audio) on the TiVo and just transfer to another device as needed.

If one is serious about media, they have a fileserver handling the media. I use a dedicated tower box that has 6 400GB drives in a RAID5, almost 2TB. I need more space. :)

A TiVo simply can't keep up with the demands for HD media over a network. The CPU just can't push the data fast enough. And they have that stupid DRM stuff they also have to do in software, slowing the CPU further. Not to mention proprietary drive and video formats you have to use. Which means that I have to have a powerful computer running as well to transcode the video so I can feed it to the TiVo.

If TiVo wants to compete in this space, they need to at minimum merge the capabilities of the Popcorn Hour player with their PVR software. This sort of thing is why I don't have a TivoHD. I want more from an HD box. My playback machines cost about the same as a TivoHD, even in a nice looking box, and there is no monthly subscription payment. I do have to pay $20/year for guide data though.

[pilotbob]

Personally, I think my XBox 360 with the PlayON Media Mall app to get Hulu et al stuff is a much better media extender. Yes, I would prefer to have one box to do it all... but cest la vi.

I would rather TiVo work on making it the best DVR. You know little things like indicating showing scheduled show records on the guide... and co-operative/shared to do lists, etc.

Although if TiVo does want to get into some type of "in the closet" 4 tuner device with massive storage and sell $150 ish extenders/connectors I think many would take a look. Windows Media Center basically has this usecase locked up (not counting the Open Source stuff that is no main stream).

BOb

[kb7sei]

I would rather TiVo work on making it the best DVR. You know little things like indicating showing scheduled show records on the guide... and co-operative/shared to do lists, etc.



I'm shocked that TiVo STILL hasn't implemented that sort of thing.

I do think that the future will have more features built into the various boxes we buy. How exactly that will look is still up in the air though. I can certainly see the PS3 and XBox360 as contenders if they get the software up to scratch. I only know about the XBox from people I know, but the PS3 I own is certainly not there. It has the horsepower, but nothing to drive it.

[bschuler2007]

I'm surprised Tivo never saw the market correctly too. Media Extenders are to Tivo what Mp3's were to the Music Industry. They just don't get it, until someone comes along and steals the market from under them (Itunes).

Popcorn Hour is cool as heck and a leader in some things.. but they seem not to have the money to move forward with a DVR. Tivo seems stuck in denial (kinda like AOL was). Microsoft and Sony both seem to be moving forward.. but IMHO got along way to go on the DVR front. Some of the new Sony hardware seems great though. AMD seems to be holding it's cards close to it's chest and every TV company on earth seems to be wanting to integrate w/ the internet.

Overall, I find the race to be a media extender/dvr/multi-room viewer exciting. I just can't believe nobody can just get everything together into one box yet and allow the customers to just do what they want. Sure ya got homebrew stuff.. but unless a company offers hardware and software, I didn't consider it in this post.

[ZeoTiVo]

You've never had the right devices then. .

and neither will 95% of the market care to setup and care for the setup you describe. Nothing outlandish in it but just more than most people want to deal with to watch media in the house. After all it really can also be as simple as place the disc in the tray and press play ;)

[wmcbrine]

Forum member moyekj wrote the tivostream application (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=403066), which will stream (not copy) MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 AP files to the TivoHD and TiVo Series3. Other video formats like AVI and DIVX are still not directly supported, and thus require on-the-fly transcoding to a compatible format by a computer.Someone probably should mention HME/VLC. :D

[pilotbob]

but the PS3 I own is certainly not there. It has the horsepower, but nothing to drive it.

Have you seen the PlayOn Server from MediaMall. It runs on your PC, is $30 and lets you view Hulu, CBS, ESPN, Netflix on your TV through your PS3. They are adding new services as fast as they can.

BOb

[kb7sei]

and neither will 95% of the market care to setup and care for the setup you describe. Nothing outlandish in it but just more than most people want to deal with to watch media in the house. After all it really can also be as simple as place the disc in the tray and press play ;)


The point was that the technology exists. It might not be in a pretty package right now, but it can be done. And with free software on top of that. Microsoft in particular seems to be getting close to a workable solution right now with MCE and XBox360 devices. Apple isn't doing too badly with AppleTV and iTunes either.

As storage grows and networks and the devices connected to them speed up, I think discs will be as useful in video as they are in audio. I don't know many people that think CDs are easier to use than iPods, even my parents are able to use iPods just fine. I think there is at least one more iteration of hardware and software before we get there, but it's on the way.

Unless we get another leap in compression/quality ratios like MPEG2->h264 was, the networks are the problem. Wireless-G isn't up to it if you have more than one stream going. N might be able to do it, but 2.4Ghz is getting pretty crowded. 5.4Ghz isn't far behind. I'm not sure how those without CAT5/fiber are going to get the data moved around. When only one device can transmit at a time, you're going to get bottlenecks.

[kb7sei]

Have you seen the PlayOn Server from MediaMall. It runs on your PC, is $30 and lets you view Hulu, CBS, ESPN, Netflix on your TV through your PS3. They are adding new services as fast as they can.

BOb


I know about it. But it requires a Windows PC running 24/7 to transcode the media to send to it. Now, if Sony and Microsoft were to include support for such streams internally to the consoles, we would be getting somewhere. While they are at it, they really need to support common video formats like MKV/h264 and AVI/DivX/XVid read from file shares on a network. SMB and NFS will do as starting protocols.

[Aflat]

I know about it. But it requires a Windows PC running 24/7 to transcode the media to send to it. Now, if Sony and Microsoft were to include support for such streams internally to the consoles, we would be getting somewhere. While they are at it, they really need to support common video formats like MKV/h264 and AVI/DivX/XVid read from file shares on a network. SMB and NFS will do as starting protocols.

With Windows 7 the 360 now supports AVI/DivX/Xvid/mt2s/h264, and you can get sound with MKV, but no video. It's not even in beta yet, so that may work by the time Windows 7 gets released.

[pilotbob]

I know about it. But it requires a Windows PC running 24/7 to transcode the media to send to it.

Well, to be exact it only requires running the Windows machine while you are watching stuff through the PlayOn server. Personally, I keep my PC running 24/7 anyway. So, it isn't an issue. Actually, I haven't paid my $30 yet. I am cheap. Waiting to see if Boxee with come out with an XBox 360 version or a way to access Boxee as an extender type setup.

BOb

[xboard07]

Tivo is too slow to get out of it's own way with You Tube and Net Flix. It is far from ready to be a full on media streamer.

[scottleslie]

Therein lies the problem - It was not designed from a hardware or software standpoint to be a Media Extender. But because of their tight relationship with the Cable industry, Tivo has the opportunity to be the leader in set-top boxes. They just need to get out of the box they they've put themselves in.

Might help if they understood the power of Partnerships. There are many great partners who could provide great value-add to Tivo from Microsoft to SageTV to Open Source.

They might have to clean house to get a fresh look at the market that exists going forward. The current management seems content with incremental changes rather than strategic moves.

Tivo is too slow to get out of it's own way with You Tube and Net Flix. It is far from ready to be a full on media streamer.

[pilotbob]

Is the TiVo for PC software anywhere near the features on Windows Media Server?

http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/09/29/tivo-announces-software-to-turn-your-pc-into-tv-recorder/

I agree.. it they could ship software and then charge the monthly fee to provide guide data for it... they may be able to get more revenue. Rather than ship low powered software they can run on industry standard hardware.. either on top of Windows or as an Full os with embedded linux. The can support the media server specs of XBox and PS3 to allow for use of existing extenders.

This would also allow users to scale as much as they want, hard drive and tuner wise.

I would buy it.

BOb

[kb7sei]

With Windows 7 the 360 now supports AVI/DivX/Xvid/mt2s/h264, and you can get sound with MKV, but no video. It's not even in beta yet, so that may work by the time Windows 7 gets released.

Very nice. It's good to see a big player making some moves on this front. The consoles are an excellent place to start as people might already have them for games. And people might be willing to get them for media boxes and be able to play games.

The Windows 7 requirement sucks though, the XBox360 has the power needed to handle all this by itself. It shouldn't need anything special from the server.