When is Native not really Native?

[aindik]

Inspired by the "are the menus in HD" thread:

What exactly is TiVoHD doing to 480i recorded programs and live TV before it sends them out in 16:9, native, panel mode?

What the TiVo gets is a 480i, 4:3 image. What TiVo sends out is a 4:3 image that contains a squished version of the 480i 4:3 image it recorded, plus black bars, designed to be stretched out onto a 16:9 panel. That's not really "native," is it? Isn't "native" supposed to be "send what you recorded"? That doesn't appear to be what TiVo is doing. And, it's wasting bandwidth inside the 480i signal for the black bars, resulting in a massively inferior signal from what it received.

The only way to get the actual 4:3 480i image that the TiVo recorded out of the TiVo is to lie to the TiVo, telling it you have a 4:3 smart screen TV. Then, it'll send a 4:3-formatted image when the content is 480i or 480p (and its aspect radio controls are disabled).

I suppose the image in 16:9, native, stretch mode is actually native, so long as you tell your TV to resquish the image. But I'm not sure. Is it?

[Dancar]

I'm pretty sure Native mode would mean that any 480i recording is sent out in 4:3. In fact I think it would have to for compatibility with non-HD TVs (when connected with component video cables).

Also, 480i begins with an inferior picture also takes a lot less bandwidth. So I don't think you lose any visible picture qaulity in 480i programming regardless of which mode you use.

[aindik]

I'm pretty sure Native mode would mean that any 480i recording is sent out in 4:3. In fact I think it would have to for compatibility with non-HD TVs (when connected with component video cables).

"Native" is native for 480i programming if you tell the TiVo you have a 4:3 TV or a 4:3 smart screen TV. If you tell the TiVo you have a 16:9 TV, you get what I described above, with the black bars squeezed into an already bandwidth-limited 480i signal.


Also, 480i begins with an inferior picture also takes a lot less bandwidth. So I don't think you lose any visible picture qaulity in 480i programming regardless of which mode you use.

If you're sending something that's 480i, and inside it is a) something that was originally 480i, plus b) MORE stuff in the form of black bars, aren't you sacrificing some of the original bits in order to add the black bars?

[ciper]

"Native" is native for 480i programming if you tell the TiVo you have a 4:3 TV or a 4:3 smart screen TV. If you tell the TiVo you have a 16:9 TV, you get what I described above, with the black bars squeezed into an already bandwidth-limited 480i signal.
Excellent observation. I used a real 4:3 smart screen which supports 1080i connected to my TivoHD up until a week ago (HD CRT). When I upgraded to a 16:9 display I thought the SD contect looked bad because the screen was much larger. I will test your theory.

[aindik]

Excellent observation. I used a real 4:3 smart screen which supports 1080i connected to my TivoHD up until a week ago (HD CRT). When I upgraded to a 16:9 display I thought the SD contect looked bad because the screen was much larger. I will test your theory.

The SD content will also look remarkably better if you send it in 1080i fixed (for a 1080p set) or 720p fixed (for a 720p set) with the TiVo in 16:9 mode. It only looks completely awful when it's actually sent in 480i or 480p in 16:9 mode.

[Dancar]

If you're sending something that's 480i, and inside it is a) something that was originally 480i, plus b) MORE stuff in the form of black bars, aren't you sacrificing some of the original bits in order to add the black bars?

It's if you're sending 480i in 720p or 1080i that it would have to add the black bars.

The only 480i show I watch on a regular basis is "The Daily Show" (I am not counting 4:3 programs on HD channels like "Meet the Press" - the network is doing the upconversion to HD and transmitting it that way). When I first got my HD Tivo, I experimented with various settings and nothing seemed to make a difference. Also, Comedy Channel seems to look crapier than other SD channels on our system. We went with 1080i fixed because it eliminated the jumpy picture when switching to channels with different resolutions.

Since different TVs have different options for handling inputs in different resultions, and different upscaling abilities, I think the optimum combination of settings on the TiVo & TV will vary depending on the TV model.

[aindik]

It's if you're sending 480i in 720p or 1080i that it would have to add the black bars.

Sure. When it takes something that's 480i and sends it in 720p with black bars added, it doesn't need to degrade the picture to do it. When it tries to do the same thing but sends it in 480i, it does.


The only 480i show I watch on a regular basis is "The Daily Show" (I am not counting 4:3 programs on HD channels like "Meet the Press" - the network is doing the upconversion to HD and transmitting it that way). When I first got my HD Tivo, I experimented with various settings and nothing seemed to make a difference. Also, Comedy Channel seems to look crapier than other SD channels on our system. We went with 1080i fixed because it eliminated the jumpy picture when switching to channels with different resolutions.

Since different TVs have different options for handling inputs in different resultions, and different upscaling abilities, I think the optimum combination of settings on the TiVo & TV will vary depending on the TV model.

Agreed. But in order to get actual "native" 480i content, sent as it was received, you need to tell your TiVo you have a different type of TV than you actually have. If you tell it you have a 16:9 TV, whatever you send is altered.

[Brainiac 5]

I think you can get rid of the side bars in 480i by switching the aspect ratio on the TiVo to "full" when watching such programs. I agree that it's strange; I'm not sure when you would want it to work the way it does (maybe if you have a 480p EDTV?).

I wish they had an option like "native for HD resolutions, and 720p/1080i (your choice) for 480i."

[snash22]

Sure. When it takes something that's 480i and sends it in 720p with black bars added, it doesn't need to degrade the picture to do it. When it tries to do the same thing but sends it in 480i, it does.


aindik - Interesting. But I have a question. Are you sure it squishes the image and adds the black bars?

As I understand it, the 480 is referring to the horizontal lines running across the screen. Can't the Tivo modify these horizontal lines by adding the black bars on each side without modifying the original 4:3 content?

[doconeill]

I just did a test.

I have my TiVo HD set to native output, set for a 16:9 screen (not "smart" mode), with "Full" aspect.

My TV receives a 480i signal, so the TiVo is sending a 480i signal.

Even if I change aspect via the TiVo, and it squishes the screen and puts in the black (or grey if you choose) bars, it is still sending a 480i signal.

Now, if you are talking about the actual resolution of the visible screen image, note that is is only affecting the horizontal resolution, not the vertical resolution - which is what the 480 refers to. Horizontally, I believe it is using non-square pixels (it is allowed under ATSC standards) and being left up to the TV to deal with. A 16:9 TV that is set to stretch a 4:3 video input would then correct the non-squareness of the pixels in order to fit the pillarbox bars in to the frame - so no degradation should be taking place.

Is that what you are referring to?

[Brainiac 5]

Even if I change aspect via the TiVo, and it squishes the screen and puts in the black (or grey if you choose) bars, it is still sending a 480i signal.This is actually the problem.

There is only so much horizontal resolution in a 480i signal. Let's assume it's 720 pixels (like DVD). So a 4:3 picture has 720x480 pixels, and a 16:9 signal also has 720x480 pixels, but they're wider pixels (they're not square, just as you said).

Let's say you set your TV aspect ratio to "full," so the TV thinks that you are sending a 720x480 anamorphic widescreen (16:9) signal. Because 480i television shows are not widescreen, if you set the TiVo aspect ratio to "full" it will looked stretched horizontally. If you set the TiVo aspect ratio to "panel," it will look normal. However, you'll be losing resolution, because the TiVo is adding the pillarbox bars inside the 720x480 signal; it's still 720 across, but now some of that 720 is taken up by the bars at the sides, leaving fewer pixels for the actual picture.

The way I handle this is to set the TV aspect ratio to "4:3," and the TiVo aspect ratio to "full." Then you use all 720x480 pixels, and they're displayed 4:3 on the screen. (By "set the TV aspect ratio," I mean use the TV's remote to set what aspect ratio is displayed; I'm not talking about the setting of what kind of TV you have in the TiVo's menu.)

A way you can see what the TiVo is doing is to set your TV to display in 4:3 aspect ratio, then cycle through the aspect settings on the TiVo while showing a 480i program. You'll see that when you choose "panel," there are the black bars on the sides added by the TV, and then MORE black bars inside those that are added by the TiVo. (You can also change your side bar color to be able to differentiate what bars come from where.)

[aaronwt]

The SD content will also look remarkably better if you send it in 1080i fixed (for a 1080p set) or 720p fixed (for a 720p set) with the TiVo in 16:9 mode. It only looks completely awful when it's actually sent in 480i or 480p in 16:9 mode.

It depends on what devices you are send your video through. The TiVo doesn't come close to what my video processor can do.

[doconeill]

This is actually the problem.

There is only so much horizontal resolution in a 480i signal. Let's assume it's 720 pixels (like DVD). So a 4:3 picture has 720x480 pixels, and a 16:9 signal also has 720x480 pixels, but they're wider pixels (they're not square, just as you said).

Let's say you set your TV aspect ratio to "full," so the TV thinks that you are sending a 720x480 anamorphic widescreen (16:9) signal. Because 480i television shows are not widescreen, if you set the TiVo aspect ratio to "full" it will looked stretched horizontally. If you set the TiVo aspect ratio to "panel," it will look normal. However, you'll be losing resolution, because the TiVo is adding the pillarbox bars inside the 720x480 signal; it's still 720 across, but now some of that 720 is taken up by the bars at the sides, leaving fewer pixels for the actual picture.

The way I handle this is to set the TV aspect ratio to "4:3," and the TiVo aspect ratio to "full." Then you use all 720x480 pixels, and they're displayed 4:3 on the screen. (By "set the TV aspect ratio," I mean use the TV's remote to set what aspect ratio is displayed; I'm not talking about the setting of what kind of TV you have in the TiVo's menu.)

A way you can see what the TiVo is doing is to set your TV to display in 4:3 aspect ratio, then cycle through the aspect settings on the TiVo while showing a 480i program. You'll see that when you choose "panel," there are the black bars on the sides added by the TV, and then MORE black bars inside those that are added by the TiVo. (You can also change your side bar color to be able to differentiate what bars come from where.)

[Note: I don't consider myself an expert in these systems - but it is how I believe it works]

Actually, you are forcing the TV to display the signal in a smaller area, which requires the TV to adjust for it by resampling to deal with the non-square pixels. But WHY ON EARTH would you tell your TV AND your TiVo to do this??

Assuming the 480i standard 4:3 signal involves a 640x480 resolution, by setting the TiVo to Panel all you should be doing is changing the resolution to 704x480i (I'm not sure why, but 720x480 is not one of the ATSC resolutions - and its not 16:9 either - 853x480 is closer) , and the extra 64 pixels on each line are the pillarbox, inserted by the TiVo. Sure, it requires more data being transmitted - but hopefully your widescreen TV and connection method are certainly capable of carrying it. Of course, 32 pixels on either side doesn't seem enough - if that was true I'd expect the actual video should look like a mosaic... :)

Now, where I can see you actually losing something is if you are using a connection to your TV that isn't capable of carrying the ATSC-standard 704x480i signal, such as NTSC RF or perhaps even composite or S-Video. In those cases, the signal would have to be reprocessed and you'd lose something horizontally - but does the Aspect setting even work in these cases?

[Brainiac 5]

Actually, you are forcing the TV to display the signal in a smaller area, which requires the TV to adjust for it by resampling to deal with the non-square pixels. But WHY ON EARTH would you tell your TV AND your TiVo to do this??You really don't want to, which is the original poster's point.

Assuming the 480i standard 4:3 signal involves a 640x480 resolution, by setting the TiVo to Panel all you should be doing is changing the resolution to 704x480i (I'm not sure why, but 720x480 is not one of the ATSC resolutions - and its not 16:9 either - 853x480 is closer) ,704x480 is basically the same as 720x480, it just allows for 16 more pixels of overscan on the sides. As to it not being 16:9, the pixels are not square. It is 16:9 if you have your TV set to "full" aspect ratio, and 4:3 if you have it set to "4:3."

and the extra 64 pixels on each line are the pillarbox, inserted by the TiVo. Sure, it requires more data being transmitted - but hopefully your widescreen TV and connection method are certainly capable of carrying it. Of course, 32 pixels on either side doesn't seem enough - if that was true I'd expect the actual video should look like a mosaic... :)Only this is not how it works. There are no extra pixels. In the case of the ATSC resolution you mention, a 4:3 picture is 704x480 (not 640x480). When you switch the TiVo to panel, it does not add any pixels anywhere. It shrinks the picture to the middle of the 704x480 and adds black bars on the sides, WITHIN the 704x480. So some of the 704 horizontal resolution is used to display the black bars rather than your picture, and you've lost some horizontal resolution.

[Brainiac 5]

I suppose the image in 16:9, native, stretch mode is actually native, so long as you tell your TV to resquish the image. But I'm not sure. Is it?I'd overlooked this sentence in your original post - yes, "full" mode on the TiVo makes it come out native. Then you can tell the TV to display that in 4:3 (resquishing it, as you say).

[snash22]

...When you switch the TiVo to panel, it does not add any pixels anywhere. It shrinks the picture to the middle of the 704x480 and adds black bars on the sides, WITHIN the 704x480. So some of the 704 horizontal resolution is used to display the black bars rather than your picture, and you've lost some horizontal resolution.

Brainiac - Now we're getting somewhere. How do you know this is true? That would be a very significant loss of resolution.

[Brainiac 5]

One way I know is from having my TV in 4:3 mode when watching 480i, and cycling through the aspect ratio settings on the TiVo. The TV does not change resolution while cycling between full, panel, and zoom (on my TV, it's quite noticeable when it changes resolutions, as the screen goes black for a moment).

If you do this, you'll see that at "full," the picture takes up the whole middle part of the screen, with black bars added by the TV. When you go to "panel," the picture gets squished and there are additional black bars WITHIN the middle part of the screen, that are added by the TiVo. It's squishing the picture within the same resolution signal.

But also, this is just how widescreen SD video works. In general, the same resolutions are used for 4:3 and 16:9, it's just a matter of what shape the pixels are considered to be (wider, to fill the whole screen with say 704 pixels across, or less wide, to only fill the 4:3 center area of the screen with the same 704 pixels across).

[snash22]

...In general, the same resolutions are used for 4:3 and 16:9, it's just a matter of what shape the pixels are considered to be (wider, to fill the whole screen with say 704 pixels across, or less wide, to only fill the 4:3 center area of the screen with the same 704 pixels across).

I did not know that.

I tried what as suggested and I did not see any immediately apparent difference in quality for the SD images. I'm going to poke around a bit more since I am not 100% sure of the interactions between my TiVo and my TV.

[snash22]

I noticed that when I put the TiVo in Smart Screen mode that the Aspect Ratio button no longer does anything.

My TV (Sony 60A3000) handles the Smart mode nicely; 4:3 in the center, 16:9 sized correctly.

That said, when watching SD content that is typically pretty poor for me, I couldn't really tell the difference with the Smart Screen "tweak". On better SD channels, it seems to look like an improvement, certainly no worse.

I do like the menus no longer being stretched and it gets rid of some of the HDMI handshake delays.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

But also, this is just how widescreen SD video works. In general, the same resolutions are used for 4:3 and 16:9, it's just a matter of what shape the pixels are considered to be (wider, to fill the whole screen with say 704 pixels across, or less wide, to only fill the 4:3 center area of the screen with the same 704 pixels across).

DVD works the same way. This is what "anamorphic widescreen" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic_widescreen) refers to.

Note that there is an SD format in ATSC where the pixels really are square (640x480i) and that this can be converted to pillarbox SD 16:9 just by padding left and right with black to hit 704/720 samples of horizontal resolution. It's not a common format by any stretch, though. It's also worth noting that if this is SD video that the TiVo itself encoded as MPEG (i.e. originally analog), the TiVo almost certainly encoded fewer than 720 samples per horizontal line.

[snash22]

After reading through this thread a couple times it seems that aindik and Brainiac 5 are proposing 2 different things.

aindik is saying to set the TiVo Aspect Ratio to 4:3 Smart Screen. (This disables Aspect Correction Mode)

Brainiac 5 is saying to set the TiVo TV Aspect Correction Mode to Full. (This can only be done if the Aspect Ration is not Smart Screen)

I think that these 2 options result in the same thing as far as the ultimate goal of not reducing the horizontal resolution, is this correct?

[Brainiac 5]

I think that these 2 options result in the same thing as far as the ultimate goal of not reducing the horizontal resolution, is this correct?As far as I know, yes, they should both give the same result.

[Amnesia]

OK, I have a "native resolution" question. With my old TV, I used fixed 1080i.

With my new TV, I'm using Native...but what seems strange is that sometimes when I go to the TiVo menus, my TV reports that it's getting a 720p signal and other times, it reports that it's getting a 1080i signal.

Why is that?

[jstrangfeld]

So I am not sure if you guys are describing what I see.
I have a Sony HDTV set to "Normal" aspect ratio which supposedly does no processing of the source and just displays whatever it gets. My S3 is set to Native + Panel.
For experiment sake I set the letter/pillar box color to gray so I can tell apart the Tivo pillars/letterboxes vs. what my TV does by itself.

In the above config when sending a 480 signal to the TV the result is that the Picture is to narrow and has grey pillars on either side put there by the Tivo and then additional black bars on either side of the gray bars put there by my TV.

I had not noticed this behavior before I got the 11.x upgrade and considered it a bug.

Am I losing my mind or do I imagine that in 9.x this used to work correctly?

P.S.: I tried this via both HDMI and Component Video with the same result.

[aindik]

So I am not sure if you guys are describing what I see.
I have a Sony HDTV set to "Normal" aspect ratio which supposedly does no processing of the source and just displays whatever it gets. My S3 is set to Native + Panel.
For experiment sake I set the letter/pillar box color to gray so I can tell apart the Tivo pillars/letterboxes vs. what my TV does by itself.

In the above config when sending a 480 signal to the TV the result is that the Picture is to narrow and has grey pillars on either side put there by the Tivo and then additional black bars on either side of the gray bars put there by my TV.

I had not noticed this behavior before I got the 11.x upgrade and considered it a bug.

Am I losing my mind or do I imagine that in 9.x this used to work correctly?

P.S.: I tried this via both HDMI and Component Video with the same result.

Using 16:9, Native, Panel has always yielded this result ("always" meaning since I got my TiVoHD, 14 months ago). It has always sent a 480i picture containing squished content and side-bars. Something on your TV changed. Before, it was stretching out the 480i picture into 16:9, which is what the TiVo expects your TV to do.

TiVo thinks having a "16:9" TV means that the TV always expects a 16:9 input.

Hmm. Is it possible that, before, TiVoHD was telling the TVs, somehow, that this was an anamorphic signal (i.e., "hey, TV, stretch this when you get it"), like anamorphic widescreen DVDs do, and that now, it's not? I don't know - I don't think my TV supports that flag if it exists.

[dmbpj]

I need to test this out tonight on my tv. I just got a TiVoHD and I want to be sure I am not setup incorrectly. I need to change the side bars on my TiVo to show grey and not black for testing.

This thread is a bit confusing to me, but I think I have the idea.

[igrok]

I'm a bit confused. I have a Sony 1080p set, and I've had my tivo set to 16:9 and native. With the sony, the wide setting (full, panel, zoom, or wide zoom) will "stick" separately for SD content and HD content. So I have HD content set for normal, which provides the full HD 16:9 picture, and SD content to full, which provides the proper pillarboxing for 4:3 content, but upscales to fill the horizontal dimension. Usually, that is. It seems that some channels are broadcast with their own letterboxing or pillarboxing, so that in some cases you can see 4:3 picture that does not take up the whole horizontal picture, and even sometimes 16:9 SD content appears with both pillar and letter boxing, so that it's a 16:9 shape but takes up far less than the whole screen.

One other problem with native is resolution changes between SD and HD content, and so that even going to the now playing list results in a res change, so I get some hairy effects with each switch. Only half a second or so, but still there.

So I switched the tivo to 1080i fixed, and observed a couple of things. The sony tv thinks it's getting 1080i all the time, even with the now playing list, so there's no craziness with res switches. And SD channels now appear to take up the whole horizontal screen, properly pillarboxed (but only if set to full, not normal, as if it were SD content) while HD channels appear as they did before (but with the tv set to normal, not full). I'm still investigating, and I'll try to figure whether the tv upscales better than the tivo, but casual observation did not pick up any substantial differences. Still, no SD content is getting stretched wide, which is something that always bothered me.

Just some thoughts.

[igrok]

Well, some corrections. Some channels just seem to be broadcast weird. And commercials can be strange too, sometimes in 16:9 format on an SD channel, but then the TV doesn't know to zoom.

Going back to native, I think the TV actually does a slightly better job with upscaling 4:3 SD content than the tivo unit. I tried playing back a recording with settings for native and for 1080i fixed, and getting the same "size" picture on the TV with both. And I *think* it's a bit better with the TV doing the scaling, but that could just be that particular source material. Who knows?

All said and done, it seems to me to make the most sense (for me) to stick with native, and let the TV do what its designed to do.

That said, it really should be a lot easier to get the right picture for all content -- 4:3 SD, 16:9 SD content, 720p HD, and 1080i HD, without all this nonsense.

[ciper]

I think the TV actually does a slightly better job with upscaling 4:3 SD content than the tivo unit. I tried playing back a recording with settings for native and for 1080i fixed, and getting the same "size" picture on the TV with both. And I *think* it's a bit better with the TV doing the scaling,

This is HEAVILY dependent on the model of TV. With a 3 year old Vizio you might be better off letting the Tivo upconvert while a brand new Sony XBR8 would do a better job than the Tivo.

[dmbpj]

Can I get a little help with what might be the best setup with this TV:

http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/Samsung-HL-R5667W.htm

Should I use Native, Hybrid or 1080 Hybrid? (I use Native since the TV displays all 4 formats)

16:9 Widescreen for aspect or 4:3 Smart Screen? ( I am using Smart Screen)

And one stupid question - Why does the Aspect button not work on my remote? (Forget this question - I see it works in 16:9 mode and not in 4:3 Smart Screen mode.)

[dmbpj]

Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.

[ciper]

Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.
:D It's your TV not the TiVo.

[ghken]

Hmm. Is it possible that, before, TiVoHD was telling the TVs, somehow, that this was an anamorphic signal (i.e., "hey, TV, stretch this when you get it"), like anamorphic widescreen DVDs do, and that now, it's not? I don't know - I don't think my TV supports that flag if it exists.

I reported this in one of the 11.x bug threads. After the update, my Pioneer plasma started to believe every SD 480i 4:3 signal from the Tivo was anamorphic and in need of stretching. The Tivo is set to native output and connected via HDMI.

I can grab the Pioneer remote and manually change the aspect setting to 4:3 for these programs. But prior to 11.x, the Pioneer switched aspect ratio between HD and SD programming all by itself, like magic. I miss the magic.

[Dancar]

Going back to native, I think the TV actually does a slightly better job with upscaling 4:3 SD content than the tivo unit. I tried playing back a recording with settings for native and for 1080i fixed, and getting the same "size" picture on the TV with both. And I *think* it's a bit better with the TV doing the scaling, but that could just be that particular source material. Who knows?



If you have to closely study it to tell the difference, then I'd say it might not matter. Enjoy the true 1080i programing, and enjoy the content of the SD programming even though it will never look as good as HD.

[dmbpj]

:D It's your TV not the TiVo.
Ha. Well then man is my TV slow!


I am still fiddling with setting and just not sure what is best.

[ciper]

Ha. Well then man is my TV slow!

Component and HDMI may have different results. Try using the one you aren't now and see if the speed is better.

My TV is much faster at switching resolutions with Component. I think HDCP is the culprit.

[aindik]

I reported this in one of the 11.x bug threads. After the update, my Pioneer plasma started to believe every SD 480i 4:3 signal from the Tivo was anamorphic and in need of stretching. The Tivo is set to native output and connected via HDMI.

I can grab the Pioneer remote and manually change the aspect setting to 4:3 for these programs. But prior to 11.x, the Pioneer switched aspect ratio between HD and SD programming all by itself, like magic. I miss the magic.

When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).

[jstrangfeld]

When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).

I understand what you are saying but I swear prior to the 11.x update my S3 did pass a 480i 4:3 signal through "natively" without stretching it to 16:9.
I know I did not change anything on my TV and also know that I had never seen the "to narrow" picture before. (It's taller than it is wide)

....very frustrating.

[snash22]

:D It's your TV not the TiVo.

I while ago I ran some tests and I am convinced that when you change from a channel of one resolution to another, the TiVo send the new channel in the old resolution for a moment before sending it in the new resolution. This results in a delay. This would happen over HDMI and component.

[Mindflux]

Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.

After using Native and getting tired of the lag bouncing around stations and into the TiVo Central menu I finally just set it to 1080i. Hybrid is still going to change resolutions as you move around (which is where the lag comes from along with HDCP handshake)

[ciper]

I while ago I ran some tests and I am convinced that when you change from a channel of one resolution to another, the TiVo send the new channel in the old resolution for a moment before sending it in the new resolution. This results in a delay. This would happen over HDMI and component.

I'm not sure what test you did but I do know there is currently a bug where the Tivo reports the resolution of the previous channel after changing.
http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=10413005

[ghken]

When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).

By using 'Panel' on the Tivo you are correct, you are not really getting the native signal - it is being rescaled by the Tivo, the image squeezed within a narrower area and side panels added.

Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.

[ciper]

Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.
Or leave the Tivo set to Smart Screen and it will always output the video in its original ratio.

[snash22]

I'm not sure what test you did but I do know there is currently a bug where the Tivo reports the resolution of the previous channel after changing.
http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=10413005

That seems related, but the previous channel resolution was displayed only for a moment, when the screen went "buggy" ands then it would correct.

By "buggy" I mean it appeared that the resolution was misinterpreted, and the everything was stretched/squeezed/warped/distorted.

I could be wrong. I'll check it out at a time when I won't be irritating the hell out of the rest of the family.


On Edit - I posted (http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5641039#post5641039) about this a while back here is what I said

I am fairly sure these "transitional flickers" are caused by the TiVo, not the TV.

My TV is set to Native. I am using HDMI.

During the transition to a channel with a different format , I can see program information for the channel I am changing to. The program information's size and location is changed, but it is still readable if you can read fast. In this distorted information panel I see the current format in the distorted information panel, and then the screen goes black, then I get the channel I switched to. When I press the info button, I see the correct format in the information panel.

What seems to be happening is this; I am watching 1080i, I switch to a 480i channel. The TiVo sends the 480i channel to the TV with a switch indicating it is 1080i. The TV chokes on this. The TiVo then sends the 480i channel with the switch indicating it is 480i. The TV is now happy.

So for that brief moment, TiVo is sending the wrong format switch, screwing up the TV.

[aindik]

Or leave the Tivo set to Smart Screen and it will always output the video in its original ratio.

This is what I'm doing now.

Unfortunately, this rule (native is really native in smart screen) only applies to video, not to the menus. The new TiVo Search beta menu and the Netflix menu are native in HD, but 4:3 smart screen native setting outputs them in 480i.

[aindik]

That seems related, but the previous channel resolution was displayed only for a moment, when the screen went "buggy" ands then it would correct.

By "buggy" I mean it appeared that the resolution was misinterpreted, and the everything was stretched/squeezed/warped/distorted.

I could be wrong. I'll check it out at a time when I won't be irritating the hell out of the rest of the family.


On Edit - I posted (http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5641039#post5641039) about this a while back here is what I said

I think what you're really seeing is your TV receiving 480i material while still, momentarily, in 1080i mode. When it realizes what it's getting, it changes the setting.

One way to test this is if you have a non-TiVo item where switching between resolutions is easy. Maybe an upconverting DVD player or a cable box.

Check the LEDs on the face of your TiVoHD. They seem to be a reliable indicator of the output resolution at any given moment.

[aindik]

Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.

Because sending my TV a 4:3 image that the source knows is supposed to be a 4:3 image sounds cleaner to me than sending my TV something that the source thinks is a 16:9 image that the TV morphs into a 4:3 image.

Also, because I prefer reading the menus in 4:3 because the fonts look more natural. (Other than the aforementioned new HD-ready menus on the Netflix app and the beta TiVo Search).

The downside of doing it this way is that my TV's zoom setting zooms in too much. In 480i letterbox content, just a bit of the top and bottom of actual content is missing. Also, zooming with the TV instead of the TiVo means the TiVo progress bar is half missing from the screen unless I change the aspect ratio before fast forwarding.

[ciper]

Unfortunately, this rule (native is really native in smart screen) only applies to video, not to the menus. The new TiVo Search beta menu and the Netflix menu are native in HD, but 4:3 smart screen native setting outputs them in 480i.
I'm not getting the same thing. I have mine set to native / smart screen. My menus default to 480i, I just opened search and it went to 720p... which is odd because the channel it was on just before that was 1080i?!

edit: Please reply to the bug thread I just created if you or anyone else see's this resolution oddness http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6982463

[bkdtv]

Does anyone have a display that reports the full resolution of the input (i.e. 704x480 and not just 480i)?

If so, are SD channels output in 704x480i or 720x480i by the TiVo when native output is selected? Is this the same for both 4:3 smart and 16:9 (in full)?

Someone hasn't mentioned this...but there's really no such thing as a "completely" native output on any STB/DVR that I am aware of. Most SD channels on cable are distributed as 528x480i or 544x480i, and I'm fairly certain the TiVo only outputs 704x480i or 720x480i.

From what I can recall, the TiVo's OSD resolution display (Select-Play-Replay-Select) correctly reports 704x480 for 704x480 channels, but it reports 720x480 for other resolutions such as 528x480i and 544x480i. The actual resolutions can be confirmed by downloading the recording and checking it with a program like VideoRedo.

[ciper]

edit: I have verified that the TiVo wastes a large chunk of resolution on black bars if you use the 16:9 screen setting and the panel setting with 4:3 SD programming. If you want the highest quality SD signals you will either need to use Smart Screen (which has other drawbacks) OR choose full on the TiVo aspect button and then use your displays "shrink" feature.
I posted the following here http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6983613#post6983613


Native with Smart Screen TV setting
Pros -
4:3 SD content output at 4:3
HD content output at 16:9
Cons -
Some menus in 480i while others in 720p
16:9 SD content also output at 4:3 (requires TV remote to "fill" screen)

Native with 16:9 aspect ratio TV setting
Pros -
All menus in 720p
HD content output at 16:9
16:9 SD content output at 16:9
Cons -
with full mode on TiVo. 4:3 SD content output at 16:9 which requires the TV remote to shrink the mislabeled video. You then have to unshrink the video when viewing a true 16:9 program

with panel mode on TiVo. 4:3 SD content has DRASTICALLY reduced resolution because black bars are sent with the video signal which is completely unacceptable. [/quote]




Can anyone verify how aspect ratio detection works with 480i signals? Is it 704x480 for 4:3 and 720x480 for 16:9?

However it works I have verified that the TiVo incorrectly marks 4:3 480i material as 16:9 if you have your aspect ratio set to 16:9 in the menu. If you have 4:3 smart screen enabled the TiVo will correctly flag 4:3 content as 4:3 but seems to fail at correctly identifying/outputting 16:9 480i content.

Combine this bug with one where choosing smart screen forces some of the menus into 480i and some of the menus in 720p and you get resolution changes in the middle of your navigation and you're forced to use 4:3 480i menus in order to get true 4:3 SD output at 4:3

gahh

[Poochie]

Funny, just came across this thread the other day when setting up my new display - my goal was to ensure the scalar in the display was doing all the work, all the time. With my previous display I was running Native, but my 4:3 480i stuff was clearly not "native" since the trick-play bar spanned outside of the 4:3 area. Also oddly, at some point recently (upgrade to v11 of the TiVo Software perhaps? don't recall exactly) my tivo reconfigured itself to 720p fixed.

Anyway, when setting up my new display (JVC RS20 projector, I suspect the equivalent HD750 and similar RS10/HD350 devices will behave the same), I turned the letterbox color to grey to really help me see what was going on, and here's what I found worked best. This is on a TiVo S3 running 11.0-01-2-648, and it's connected via HDMI through a Monoprice HDMI switch. No video processors/AVRs between the TiVo and the JVC, just the switch.

- Aspect Correction Mode: Full
- Letterbox Color: Grey (so I know if I see grey, something's hosed - but I might go back to Black at some point)
- TV Aspect Ratio: 16:9
- Video Output Format: Native

On the projector I have "Aspect (Video)" as 16:9.

With this setup, my 480i 4:3 programs come in as 480i60, appear as 4:3, I don't see any grey pillar bars, and the trickplay bar is fully contained within the 4:3 area. So I believe I'm getting an unscaled 4:3 output for SD channels. Since I prefer OAR to stretching 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen, this is exactly what I want. I don't yet know what I'd do if a 4:3 channel broadcasts a letterboxed show if I wanted to zoom that to fill my 16:9 screen, but with the prevalence of HD I doubt I'll even care. The main menus come in at 720p 16:9 and HD programming comes in and displays properly as well. I haven't perused the other menus (Netflix, etc) to see how the behave, nor have I played any Netflix content yet.

On my old display I must have had it configured to handle my "non-native" "native" 4:3 output (and I possibly had the tivo configured a bit diffetently too) but I guess back then I had hoped that the Tivo was sending out a 480i signal with more horizontal resolution to account for the expansion from the 4:3 aspect to the 16:9 aspect - but upon reading this thread I decided to not expect that. Anyway, hope this helps others and doesn't confuse matters further.

[andy_hd]

I agree with the above post: when you have TiVo configured with a 16:9 display and set it on 'native' and aspect on 'full' you get SD signals as 480i going to the display and HD signals being either 720p or 1080i. This is at least what I see over component outputs. I can then set my display to do whatever stretching mode I desire for SD programming (this has no effect on HD programming). I never use the TiVo 'aspect' mode and all is well and good (except for perhaps the stretching that TiVo does to the menu fonts -- but that is another matter).

Here is my problem: I have the 'composite' outputs running to a separate 4:3 set via a modulator. I have a problem when viewing HD source material in that while things look fine on the 16:9 set, everyone looks tall and thin on the 4:3 set. My wish is that TiVo:

1) Allowed the 'aspect' setting to function on the composite outputs for HD signals, even when it ignored it for component and HDMI outputs
2) Ignored the 'aspect' setting for composite outputs for SD signals, even when it paid attention to it for component and HDMI outputs.

Essentially I'd like to be able to set the composite output to 4:3, while the component and HDMI are set to 16:9 -- or more simply just have TiVo always assume the composite output is hooked to a 4:3 set. I guess this would mess up people who do use composite outputs to drive HD displays -- but does anyone actually do this?

[spocko]

This is an interesting discussion. I hadn't occurred to me that Tivo was altering 4:3 material to add the black bars for 16:9 display. I played with the settings a bit and it definitely is doing that.

Practically speaking though, for those who value the simplicity of not having to fiddle with output modes and aspect ratio controls, if you have a 16:9 1080p display, I think a reasonable compromise is to just set your output mode to 1080i fixed. In that mode, no significant resolution should be lost due to the black bar insertion since the original 480i image is being upscaled to 1080i anyway.

I had actually intended to use "Native" mode when I first got my Tivo, since I have a 1080p display with decent processing which handles all resolutions. But I switched over to 1080i Fixed instead. My display is a little slow at switching resolutions, so the Fixed output eliminates those delays. Also when using Native and sending 480i and pressing pause, my display only shows one field as the paused image, i.e. only 240 lines of resolution, so 1080i Fixed gives me much sharper images on pause. The issues discussed in this thread give me yet another reason to stay with 1080i Fixed.

Does anybody really notice a significant quality difference between using Native and 1080i Fixed? It's hard to do an accurate A/B comparison when you only have a single Tivo and display, since it takes several seconds to switch modes. In my setup, I can't see a significant difference.

[aindik]

On my 1080p display, 720p content looks much softer using 1080i fixed than it does in Native. Everything else looks fine in both.

I've switched to Native with 4:3 smart screen instead of 16:9 as the monitor type. I get the menus in 4:3, but they're formatted for 4:3 anyway.

[spocko]

Good point about 720p. That seems like the biggest problem for the 1080i Fixed mode. In 1080i Fixed, the original 720p stream has to be interlaced by the Tivo, and then deinterlaced again by the display. I don't think that is lossless, since each 720p frame has to be converted to a 540-line 1080i field. Depending on how the interlacing and deinterlacing processing is done, there certainly could be a loss of vertical and/or motion resolution.

One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.

Update: I did some testing this eve with a few 720p channels and switching the output mode from 720p to 1080i. Given the delay involved in switching the output mode, I really couldn't see a difference. I'm sure a side-by-side comparison would be more effective, but that would require 2 identical tivos and displays. My conclusion for now is that I'm going to stick with 1080i fixed most of the time. If I'm watching a big sports event which is broadcast in 720p, then maybe I'll switch over to 720p just to be sure.

[Brainiac 5]

One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.Yes, that would be great.

[aindik]

Good point about 720p. That seems like the biggest problem for the 1080i Fixed mode. In 1080i Fixed, the original 720p stream has to be interlaced by the Tivo, and then deinterlaced again by the display. I don't think that is lossless, since each 720p frame has to be converted to a 540-line 1080i field. Depending on how the interlacing and deinterlacing processing is done, there certainly could be a loss of vertical and/or motion resolution.

One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.

I used to say two more options would be ideal:
1080i SD Upconvert (HD @ Native, SD @ 1080i)
720p SD Upconvert (HD @ Native, SD @ 720p)

Or, better yet, an advanced (or "custom") menu that lets us pick the output resolution for each of the four source resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i).

But that was because I thought 480i content looking terrible was the result of my TV not dealing well with it. Now I know that it's a result of TiVo compressing it to squeeze in black bars, I just eliminated that and use the real native (4:3 smartscreen native).

I do wish the zoom mode on my TV was as good as the zoom mode on the TiVo. The zoom mode on my TV is a bit overzealous with cutting off too much of the top and bottom. With 4:3 smart screen, I can't use the TiVo's zoom mode on 4:3 content in a letterbox.

[jstrangfeld]

Or, better yet, an advanced (or "custom") menu that lets us pick the output resolution for each of the four source resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i).


That would really be the best way to handle it.

One would think that it should be pretty straight forward since technically the box already has all the functionality and therefore it would just be a matter of writing the UI with the appropriate mappings to the code behind the scenes.

[spocko]

I agree. Time to send this feature request to Tivo. :)

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/

[ghuido]

Has anyone tried this with an AV Receiver? I have one that does video upconversion and wanted to see if any one thought what the best results are.

[aindik]

Has anyone tried this with an AV Receiver? I have one that does video upconversion and wanted to see if any one thought what the best results are.

That would vary widely with the quality of the various equipment involved (the receiver and the TV).

[bkdtv]

Has anyone tried this with an AV Receiver? I have one that does video upconversion and wanted to see if any one thought what the best results are.I could have sworn I just answered this question

Most A/V receivers do not do a good job with video processing. There are a few notable exceptions, such as the Denon AVR-5308ci and the Onkyo TX-NR906 and TX-SR876 (and the discontinued NR905 and SR875 models).

[ciper]

I recently decided to activate my Netflix account on the TiVo...
The long story short is that the aspect ratio bug which forced me to use 4:3 smart screen makes the Netflix VOD default to the "fullscreen" 4:3 version of the movie :(

Meaning I have to go all the way into the menu to select 16:9 screen before watching a movie on Netflix then change it back when done watching.

This really sucks.

[jlib]

...4:3 smart screen makes the Netflix VOD default to the "fullscreen" 4:3 version of the movie :( ...As a fan of native/smart/panel I guess that rules out Netflix VOD for me as currently implemented. Thanks for that detail...

[ciper]

As a fan of native/smart/panel I guess that rules out Netflix VOD for me as currently implemented. Thanks for that detail...

It is easy to exaggerate in these forums about how something makes you feel but this time I am completely honest when I say this really bothers me.

The TiVo HD is a device designed from the beginning to handle multiple resolutions and aspects of video. For it to be unable to correctly handle video in this way through MULTIPLE software versions makes me feel a mix of emotions. Sometimes I am really pissed off that it hasn't been fixed yet to the point that I have to stop watching TV and leave. Other times I feel sad and think "TiVo used to be so cool back in the day, now they dont care about whats right but rather what would make the most money"

I should clarify that it is broken in both directions. If you choose 16:9 display and try to watch a 4:3 video , say MacGyver, it will be improperly stretched.

[ciper]

From http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7157988
I recently decided to activate my Netflix account on the TiVo...
The long story short is that the aspect ratio bug which forced me to use 4:3 smart screen makes the Netflix VOD default to the "fullscreen" 4:3 version of the movie :(

Meaning I have to go all the way into the menu to select 16:9 screen before watching a movie on Netflix then change it back when done watching.

This really sucks.


I should clarify that it is broken in both directions. If you choose 16:9 display and try to watch a 4:3 video , say MacGyver, it will be improperly stretched.

[tai-pan]

I recently decided to activate my Netflix account on the TiVo...
The long story short is that the aspect ratio bug which forced me to use 4:3 smart screen makes the Netflix VOD default to the "fullscreen" 4:3 version of the movie :(

Meaning I have to go all the way into the menu to select 16:9 screen before watching a movie on Netflix then change it back when done watching.

This really sucks.

How does one activate Netflix on the TiVo?

[ciper]

How does one activate Netflix on the TiVo?
Open Netflix on the TiVo then type the code you see into http://www.netflix.com/activate

Be warned though. Its not uncommon for it to lock up the unit requiring multiple reboots to get it back to normal.