seriously, how do you get HD quality on netflix??? [Text View]

pcbrew

12-29-2008, 09:39 AM

You should have more than enough bandwidth...

Here is a link to more info on the codecs and bitrates used for Netflix streaming - http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html

SD encodes are VC1AP at 375, 500, 1000, and 1500kbps (2nd gen encoder)
HD encodes are 720p VC1AP at 2600kbps or 3800kbps 24fps (film) or 30fps

Are you selecting shows that are HD? Go to Watch Instantly, select Genres, and then select HD. My devices seem to top out 1 bar below the max speed even for SD content but most shows look pretty good.

jgantert

12-29-2008, 09:45 AM

I *think* what happened, is that there were a lot of bad encodes, and they were removed, so not all the "HD" streams still have the HD streams available.

For example, 30 Rock Pilot episode doesn't stream in HD anymore, but the rest of season 1 is still in HD. If you followed the audio sync thread, the pilot episode had some encoding issues.

I have 10Mbps FiOS, and can never get an HD stream from some titles (like Viking Sagas, Delta of Venus and Kids in America), but when I get an HD stream, it never backs down from HD quality.

So, just a guess there.

jgantert

01-02-2009, 09:49 PM

So has anyone got the HD stream for Kids in America? Its still listed as HD, but always comes up in a 4:3 SD screen for me that looks like cr*p. I'm holding out on watching it till I can get a an HD stream.

Just wondering if there really is an HD stream, or if this movie is in the HD category by mistake???

BTW, I'm using 10Mbps FiOS, so no D/L bandwidth issues for me usually.

TexasGrillChef

01-02-2009, 09:55 PM

i've increased my HSI to 5MBPS and pumped the QoS on my router up to the max for the tivo, but i'm still only getting 11/12 bars and no HD. well, i got HD for about 30 seconds on an episode of numbers the other day, but then it rebuffered. running speed tests i'm consistently getting around 4.5-4.7MBPS. is that not enough to stream HD from netflix?

Actually you need a 10mbps connection that can maintain a CONSTANT 7.25mbps or faster.

While an HD encode is given at 3.8mpbs. The system checks for TWICE that bandwidth so it knows it can MAINTAIN the HD connection.

Therefore you need 3.8x2 or 7.2mpbs or faster connection.

I have a 15mpbs connection and I run HD Netflix without a problem. HOWEVER... there are times when I get really bad packet drops. Then I will have problems.

If you can get faster... get it.

TGC

P.S. Connection Quality is also a big factor. Packet loss etc...

CheezWiz

01-03-2009, 12:20 AM

I only have 5 MB/S Cable and I watch HD streams all the time. So I disagree with the post above..

computerdude1032

01-03-2009, 01:17 AM

I used to have 7MBPS DSL and couldn't get HD very well. Now I have 15 MBPS Comcast cable internet and HD streams perfectly. 7MBPS is more than enough, so my only guess is that they have something hidden in their code to ensure they don't use all your bandwith... maybe. Or else the Comcast just has a better connection in general. So, in short, it doesn't surprise me that 5MBPS wouldn't work well.

TexasGrillChef

01-03-2009, 02:45 AM

so my only guess is that they have something hidden in their code to ensure they don't use all your bandwith... maybe. Or else the Comcast just has a better connection in general. So, in short, it doesn't surprise me that 5MBPS wouldn't work well.

That was the point I was TRYING to make in my post above.

1. That Connection quality is a big factor. Packet Loss etc.. Thus for some with lots of connection issues, packet loss etc. They may need faster connection speeds to make up for the issues. Where as someone with a great clean connection at 5mbps may be fast enough.

2. One of the reasons it looks for a connection FASTER that what it needs is for other network needs. Netflix realizes that in some homes, one person may be watching Netflix on their TiVo and someone else may be browsing the internet or using their XBox/PS3 to play online. What Netflix doesn't want happening is it taking up 100% of your bandwidth then someone in your household getting online to chat/check email/browse the web & thus killing your Netflix movie. Although QOS should handle this situation in a router. Not everyone has QOS capability in their routers.

Internet connections speeds and quality are the biggest obstacles for HD streaming.

TGC

pdhenry

01-03-2009, 08:36 AM

QoS on your router only has an effect on upstream traffic, by the way.

berkshires

01-03-2009, 09:09 AM

I thought the headroom was 40% ?

szurlo

01-03-2009, 11:59 AM

Videodrome

01-03-2009, 12:24 PM

This is why streaming is terrible, i would rather a partial download, i have 6meg, and it still hangs up sometimes. I kinda just decided to stay with unbox for now.

TexasGrillChef

01-03-2009, 03:09 PM

I know many don't want to hear this, but IMHO wi-fi sucks a$$ and is NOT suited for anything other than basic web browsing etc. I avoid it at all costs. There are SO many things that can interfere with a wi-fi connection (cordless phones, microwaves etc) and all it takes is a second of interruption during a streaming operation to hose you up. I pulled CAT 5 from my office to the entertainment center and put a small switch there. A serious PITA but well worth it. I get 11/12 bars ALWAYS in Netflix and have never had a re-buffer. This is with a 10MB cable connection. Watched Ratatouille last night in HD end to end with zero issues.

Exactly... There are so many people that are using wireless and expect a PERFECT connection for streaming. Go figure. Wireless is ok if your not streaming. Hiccups or pauses doesn't hurt anything except a streaming experiance.

TiVo has allready acknowledged that if you have HICCUPS in your netflix streaming that it can cause issues.

To many things can go wrong in a Wireless connection vs a wired connection

TGC

ciper

01-03-2009, 03:41 PM

HomieG

01-03-2009, 03:50 PM

Streaming here to a Series 3 Tivo and the Roku Netflix decoder. Wireless-G. Both the TiVo and Roku work perfectly, and in HD, with Netflix over wireless-G, at least at my home.

szurlo

01-03-2009, 06:36 PM

Not all wireless is created equal. Use the 5ghz band, 802.11a or true dual band 802.11n, and the connection quality increases significantly. I know there is at least two 5ghz capable routers able to run dd-wrt if that's your thing.

Many newer cordless phones operate at 5.8GHZ and have some overlap into the spectrum that is used by 802.11a.
2.4GHZ Cordless phones step on 802.11b and g.
Bluetooth radios also operate in the 2.4GHZ band as do most microwave ovens.

As far as I know, there is not currently any wi-fi standard that does not use spectrum that is shared with some other consumer electronics technology. Basically the point I'm making is that all bets are off with wi-fi. Plus it's slower, and it's subject to interception etc. I love the idea, and I have two WAPs at my house so my wife can carry her notebook around to surf the web etc, but every other device in the house that needs a network connection is wired, even the Wii :) The amount of work required to run the cable is more than offset by the gains in reliability and performance, in my opinion. Obviously, not everyone can run CAT5 all over their residence, so wi-fi is their only real option. It's just that I feel many people are under the impression that wi-fi is just wired Ethernet without the wire and that is simply not the case. I always encourage people to use wire when ever possible.

CheezWiz

01-03-2009, 10:12 PM

I agree. I spent most of a day snaking cat-5 up into my walls so they share a plate with my cable outlets. I installed a switch in the garage, in the rafters, and used power-over-ethernet to run it. While I was at it I installed an Ethernet connected thermostat for the HVAC. Wireless and streaming just do not mix. Especially if you have neighbors all around fighting for channels. Wireless is for web browsing here. My wireless access point racks up quite a bit of dropped packets and it is directly under the floor in the living room.

I am guessing netflix uses UDP rather than TCP/IP to keep the overhead down. If so, then a solid connection is really necessary to avoid hiccups. Just speculation..

ciper

01-04-2009, 12:06 AM

Many newer cordless phones operate at 5.8GHZ and have some overlap into the spectrum that is used by 802.11a.

Only the upper most band. Channels 34-157 use 5.17-5.785ghz

deek_md

01-04-2009, 01:08 AM

as a fix for people who dont want to run cat5 or want an alternative solution, the NIM100 fix seems to be workable for this problem.. at least I hope. There are other threads here that detail NIM100 solution. Personally, I am waiting for my NIMs to come in to check it out.

Currently, my wireless G network just doesnt cut it.. I get retrieving interruptions constantly on Netflix. I have all G level wireless in the house (somebody else posted about all the wifi issues that could affect the streaming, one of which includes that wifi generally down throttles to the slowest level being used on the network - so, if you are using a B standard your network may not hit G level speeds).

Anyways, I am not a technical guy and I know I shouldve posted something after I succeeded in my own NIM100 experiment, but I thought it might be worthwhile just to mention it as a possible alternative to running cables.

At the end of the day, I fully agree with the idea that wireless is not ready for full HD streaming by a longshot. Hardwired networks are probably the right way to go.

DiGNAN17

01-04-2009, 01:32 AM

I am extremely frustrated by the Netflix service on Tivo. At the moment the results I get seem completely random and unrelated to connection speed. So far I've tried, in order:

1- powerline networking - clearly a slow and unreliable method, but I've been transferring content to my Tivo using pyTivo for months, and SD content (most AVIs and such) convert and transfer in faster than real time. But I was having issues with the Netflix service, so I tried:

2- the wireless G Tivo USB adapter - which gave me zero improvements. So then I tried:

3- running a long (30') ethernet cable straight from my router to the Tivo - again, no change whatsoever.

Here's what I'm seeing: on all SD content, I'm getting one bar short on the "quality" meter, and most HD content isn't showing up properly as HD. For example, can anyone else play Pan's Labyrinth in HD? I can't

What kills me is that it was working perfectly up until a few days ago. I was getting full signal on SD content and HD content was streaming fine. And this was all over the powerline adapters!

But now, when connected directly to the router, which is fed by a 20/10 FiOS connection (clearly beyond what Netflix streaming requires), I'm having all these problems. Argh!

So, any ideas?

TexasGrillChef

01-04-2009, 01:55 AM

I installed an Ethernet connected thermostat for the HVAC.

I know this is off topic.. and feel free to PM me your answer if you feel more comfortable.

However, I really would like to know where you got your Ethernet connected Thermostat/software, what brand and & how much it cost you?

Thanks

TGC

TexasGrillChef

01-04-2009, 02:10 AM

Here's what I'm seeing: on all SD content, I'm getting one bar short on the "quality" meter, and most HD content isn't showing up properly as HD. For example, can anyone else play Pan's Labyrinth in HD? I can't

SD content will always show at least 1 bar short on the quality meter. When you do get HD content ALL bars will show up. To get HD content all bars MUST show up.

What kills me is that it was working perfectly up until a few days ago. I was getting full signal on SD content and HD content was streaming fine. And this was all over the powerline adapters!

But now, when connected directly to the router, which is fed by a 20/10 FiOS connection (clearly beyond what Netflix streaming requires), I'm having all these problems. Argh!

So, any ideas?

Truthfully, what very few people will tell you. Is it honestly is very difficult to troubleshoot issues like this. Exactly where is the problem. Is it with Netflix? TiVo? Internet Connection/Provider? Your router? Your switch? Cables? WAP? etc...

However... for you here is what I would try if I was in your shoes.

Since you have a 20/10 Fios connection, And have hardwired your TiVo directly to your router. Does your router have log files about packets? Does it show packet loss? Error rate?

Using your computer, have done speed testing with at least THREE different internet speed web sites. Pcpitstop.com, speedtest.com, dslreports.com to name 3. At various times of day during various days of the week. You may be paying for a 20/10 Fios connection and NOT getting it. I have a 20/5 with and there are times I don't get my full speed. Sadly for me I can't complain because we are in a test market area & I am getting my internet for free.

I would start there.

TGC

DiGNAN17

01-04-2009, 02:45 AM

Good questions, all. Every time I've tested my speed, it's been precisely what Verizon is selling me. From what I can see on my router, I'm not experiencing much packet loss.

But it's good to know about the bars. I think that's a bad design choice on Netflix/Tivo's part, though. I had assumed that the "HD" symbol meant you were getting HD, and that without that full bars meant you were getting top-quality SD content. That makes far more sense, IMO. Why have two items indicating HD content?

Anyway, that's beside the point. I believe my confusion was two-fold: first, the issue with the quality bars, but I've discussed that (and I feel it's only partly my fault :) ). The second issue is entirely Netflix's fault (I believe), and I think it was an issue with one or two movies I was trying to play.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, I was trying to play Pan's Labyrinth in HD. When Netflix was first available on Tivo, that movie was available in HD. I watched it in HD, it looked spectacular, and I didn't get a chance to finish it. So I went back to it and tried again, but now, curiously, it's no longer available in HD. It's still available for streaming, but not in HD. This was the case with one or two other movies/shows, as mentioned in a post earlier in the thread, and is hopefully something Netflix is working on (I hope it's not a rights issue - ugh).

So now I've gone back to my initial setup. I just want everyone to know that it's possible to use powerline ethernet to stream HD Netflix. Frankly, I don't think WiFi is out of the question either. The main issue, IMO, is your downstream bandwidth. In all my experience with cable and DSL installations in hundreds of people's homes (I do tech support), I've never seen the reliability of speed that you get with FiOS. Like I said, I've never seen the speed drop at any time of the day. Their service is spectacular.

DougJohnson

01-04-2009, 11:33 AM

For example, as I mentioned earlier, I was trying to play Pan's Labyrinth in HD. When Netflix was first available on Tivo, that movie was available in HD. I watched it in HD, it looked spectacular, and I didn't get a chance to finish it. So I went back to it and tried again, but now, curiously, it's no longer available in HD. It's still available for streaming, but not in HD. This was the case with one or two other movies/shows, as mentioned in a post earlier in the thread, and is hopefully something Netflix is working on (I hope it's not a rights issue - ugh).

I've noticed the same thing. I'll watch part of a show in HD, then it will be SD when I go back to resume it. -- Doug

CheezWiz

01-04-2009, 01:30 PM

I know this is off topic.. and feel free to PM me your answer if you feel more comfortable.

However, I really would like to know where you got your Ethernet connected Thermostat/software, what brand and & how much it cost you?

Thanks

TGC

Ill keep it on topic too... I was able to watch P'sL in HD with no issues. Looked awesome. I also just finished up watching 30 Rock season 1 in all HD. HOWEVER we have noticed that quality went down the more we watched. That turned out to be a heat issue as I stated in some other threads. For some reason, my S3 is getting hot when streaming Netflix. A fan solved the issue as a test...

OffT>
As for the thermostat, I got it at SmartHome.com:
http://www.smarthome.com/30546/Programmable-Thermostat-EPA60/p.aspx
(It has paid for itself after about 1.5 years...)

Part of my never ending quest for greater energy efficiency... I am currently replacing my S3 and HD drives with the WD Green drives too...

DiGNAN17

01-06-2009, 12:31 AM

Ill keep it on topic too... I was able to watch P'sL in HD with no issues. Looked awesome.
That's wonderful. And so was I, at least the first 3/4 of it. Check to see if you're able to watch it in HD now. I'd bet you aren't.

wm2008

01-06-2009, 09:45 AM

Maybe a dumb comment, but everything I'm reading here in terms of connectivity talks about bandwidth. I'm actually pretty convinced that to a certain point (assuming minimum requirements are met) bandwidth is NOT the issue.

Latency is the issue. You can have all the bandwidth in the world, but high latency wreaks havoc on packet quality sensitive communication such as voice and video traffic. In such applications, latency cannot be overcome by packet retries - which is exactly why QoS is so important for example in VoIP situations. I'm guessing that those having no issues with only a 5mb connection have relatively low latency, yet some having problems with higher connection speeds actually experience higher latency.

pdhenry

01-06-2009, 11:36 AM

richlove

01-06-2009, 11:47 AM

Thanks for the information about needing a 7.25mbps connection or faster.
I was on Roadrunner cable modem residential service which has a top speed of 7.0mbps and could never get high def Netflix.
I upgraded to Roadrunner Turbo internet which has a top speed of 20mbps.
Time Warner charges $10 more per month for the faster service.
Now I get perfect HD Netflix.
I am using the standard TIVO wireless G connection.
Contrary to what others have said here, Wireless G is more than fast enough for HD streaming.

Rich

Actually you need a 10mbps connection that can maintain a CONSTANT 7.25mbps or faster.

While an HD encode is given at 3.8mpbs. The system checks for TWICE that bandwidth so it knows it can MAINTAIN the HD connection.

Therefore you need 3.8x2 or 7.2mpbs or faster connection.

I have a 15mpbs connection and I run HD Netflix without a problem. HOWEVER... there are times when I get really bad packet drops. Then I will have problems.

If you can get faster... get it.

TGC

P.S. Connection Quality is also a big factor. Packet loss etc...

wm2008

01-06-2009, 01:10 PM

IMO latency isn't much of an issue in what is essentially a 1-way stream, or at least it shouldn't be.

It would be different for something like two-way audio or video communications - this is why Vonage works poorly over a satellite link.

Well, we must disagree. Latency is a HUGE issue for video streaming and is of at least equal importance as bandwidth. This is for one way communication. It has nothing to do with 1 vs 2 way. The issue is that in non-sensitive situations, packet loss can be "corrected" by retries. In streaming audio/video - it cannot. Packet loss is - packet loss. No retries to "self-correct". Believe me - this is gospel. There are companies earning billions of dollars specifically because of this. Companies such as Packeteer, Bluecoat, Cisco, Steelhead, etc. In data communications such latency can be overcome especially in applications which are less sensitive. If you notice earlier in this thread, Cheezwiz has perfectly OK HD Netflix performance on a 5mb connection, while others having a "faster" connection (meaning larger - not necessarily faster) have issues. I'm not saying that latency IS the issue here, but it sure seems like it could be.

On consumer grade internet pipes, latency has HUGE variability.

Latency WILL cause problems in streaming video. It will cause choppy video, timeouts, audio drops. Depending on the architecture of the application streaming the content, it may affect reliability.

rainwater

01-06-2009, 01:42 PM

Actually you need a 10mbps connection that can maintain a CONSTANT 7.25mbps or faster.

While an HD encode is given at 3.8mpbs. The system checks for TWICE that bandwidth so it knows it can MAINTAIN the HD connection.

I have a 5mb connection and I can always view content that is available in HD in HD. I think I have only seen it drop below HD quality one time in all the viewing I have done.

DiGNAN17

01-06-2009, 03:46 PM

Well, we must disagree. Latency is a HUGE issue for video streaming and is of at least equal importance as bandwidth. This is for one way communication. It has nothing to do with 1 vs 2 way. The issue is that in non-sensitive situations, packet loss can be "corrected" by retries. In streaming audio/video - it cannot. Packet loss is - packet loss. No retries to "self-correct".
Are you certain that this is as much of an issue with Netflix's particular streaming implementation? Doesn't it do a bit of buffering? Also, I don't believe you're talking about issues that anyone here is experiencing. I don't think packet loss would mean the difference between HD and non-HD quality (which is what's being discussed in this thread), wouldn't it mean the difference between getting signal at all and...not?

If you notice earlier in this thread, Cheezwiz has perfectly OK HD Netflix performance on a 5mb connection, while others having a "faster" connection (meaning larger - not necessarily faster) have issues.
As one of the people with a much larger pipe (20/10), I'm not sure if you noticed my post, but the issue isn't always with the connection at all. It could be the service providing the content. In my case it was Netflix removing a movie from their HD section and only offering it in SD (which sucks).

wm2008

01-07-2009, 09:46 AM

Are you certain that this is as much of an issue with Netflix's particular streaming implementation? Doesn't it do a bit of buffering? Also, I don't believe you're talking about issues that anyone here is experiencing. I don't think packet loss would mean the difference between HD and non-HD quality (which is what's being discussed in this thread), wouldn't it mean the difference between getting signal at all and...not?

As one of the people with a much larger pipe (20/10), I'm not sure if you noticed my post, but the issue isn't always with the connection at all. It could be the service providing the content. In my case it was Netflix removing a movie from their HD section and only offering it in SD (which sucks).

No, I am not certain that this issue is latency. As I said, I only was tossing out the idea that bandwidth is not necessarily the issue either and that latency could easily be just as much if not more involved.
People on this thread reported different issues. It is possible that higher latency could allow SD content which has a lower bitrate and therefore size to stream, but exhibit problems with HD (which obviously has a far higher bitrate). I honestly don't know. I was just pointing out that many people who don't know any better concentrate on the "size" of the pipe, and disregard the actual "speed" of the pipe. A 15mb pipe is NOT faster than a 5mb pipe. It's bigger. Not faster. I honestly just don't know enough about the architecture to say what impact this has. If in fact the stream is being buffered (which it probably is) that doesn't mean that packet loss would not create issues.

pdhenry

01-07-2009, 10:18 PM

I think Netflix quality might depend in part of the programming source as well. Over the weekend I was watching 30 rck at hight bandwidth, with the bandwidth bar indicating HD. Tonight 30 Rock was coming in at about 6 or 7 bars with muddy sound, but we just finished watching Ratatouille in (near) HD quality - I think I got 11 bars watching that. I'm speculating that the Starz programming comes from a different server than the other Netflix programming, and each source has varying loads and varying source throughput.

dalesd

06-26-2009, 01:24 AM

That's wonderful. And so was I, at least the first 3/4 of it. Check to see if you're able to watch it in HD now. I'd bet you aren't.
FWIW, I just queued up Pan's Labrynth and it came through in HD.
I'm on 20/5 FiOS and TiVoHD wired with Cat5e to a DD-WRT Linksys router.

I found this thread because I had been having connection problems with Netflix. Press play, and I'd get a black screen. Not even the "Retrieving" box with the quality meter. It's fixed now, so it must have been something transient on the server side.

dlfl

11-22-2009, 10:19 PM

Thanks for the information about needing a 7.25mbps connection or faster.
I was on Roadrunner cable modem residential service which has a top speed of 7.0mbps and could never get high def Netflix.
I upgraded to Roadrunner Turbo internet which has a top speed of 20mbps.
Time Warner charges $10 more per month for the faster service.
Now I get perfect HD Netflix.
I am using the standard TIVO wireless G connection.
Contrary to what others have said here, Wireless G is more than fast enough for HD streaming.

Rich
Well that probably answers my question. I have hardwired ethernet and the RoadRunner standard service rated at 7 Mbps. It usually tests 9+ Mbps at RoadRunner's own test site and is testing 7 Mbps at speedtest.net tonight, although occasionally will test lower (e.g. 3).

I just started the Netflix free trial two nights ago and noticed I never get a movie in HD. I always get about 10 bars (maybe 11, hard to count).

I called Netflix. They say every instant watch video is available in HD if the connection supports 5 Mbps.

At least I'm not getting pauses or slow remote responses. If I decide to drop cable (due to TA problems and pixelation) I may decide it's worth the extra $10/mo. for the 20Mbps HSI.

gweempose

11-23-2009, 12:05 AM

Another factor to consider is the quality of your router. You can have the fastest connection in the world, but you're not going to be able to take full advantage of it if your router isn't up to snuff.

dalesd

11-23-2009, 12:07 AM

orangeboy

11-23-2009, 05:11 AM

I called Netflix. They say every instant watch video is available in HD if the connection supports 5 Mbps.

I don't think that's accurate. Not in my experience, for sure. Some of their comtent is of poor quality and can't remotely be called "HD" no matter what bitrate it's streaming. I'm on 20 Mb FiOS.

I have to say that "Star Trek" (TOS) looks pretty darn good for a show made that long ago, and yet the new "Doctor Who" looks crappy in comparison.

I have RoadRunner Turbo, and I certainly don't get every instant watch video in HD, unless it's in the HD genre (http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?lnkctr=hdgenre). I tend to check the titles sorted alphabetically (http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?vt=tl&so=0&lnkctr=genDdTltt&st=tt). I would love it if they added more titles to this genre...

dlfl

11-23-2009, 09:08 AM

dlfl

11-23-2009, 09:14 AM

I have RoadRunner Turbo, and I certainly don't get every instant watch video in HD, unless it's in the HD genre (http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?lnkctr=hdgenre). I tend to check the titles sorted alphabetically (http://www.netflix.com/WiHD?vt=tl&so=0&lnkctr=genDdTltt&st=tt). I would love it if they added more titles to this genre...
The HD genre, eh? They told me all are available in 720p HD and that there was no indication on their web site that selected videos were HD! No mention of the page you linked! (grrrrr!) Maybe I shouldn't expect accurate info from a CSR late Sunday night. :rolleyes:

I also wonder if they reduce quality during peak server load times.

Edit: I'm now watching Breaker Morant in HD (13 bars, HD symbol). Thanks! So far no pauses. Trick played forward 30 minutes and resynced with HD bars. Very good PQ.

Is there anyway to tell which videos are HD other than the HD Genre pages ?