Venting - Slow TTG wireless transfer rates

[lethcoeb]

I am just venting here, and I know that this has been covered ad nauseum, but I would really like to see an improvement in wireless transfer rates from Series 3 units or TiVo HD.

I am too lazy to hardwire everything, and frankly I was hoping that by now whatever bottleneck is slowing the transfer rates for these boxes would be resolved / reworked.

It takes 3+ hours to transfer a 1 hour HD TV show (5 GB)?

Wireless G TiVo adapters, 802.11n router - granted I would not expect anything above 2/3 rated 802.11g speeds at best - but this would still cut the transfer time significantly.

Anymore if I want to watch anything at my PC, I'll bring it up on Hulu. Not the best quality, but at least I can get it right now...

</vent off>

[bkdtv]

Three hours to transfer a 5GB show works out to around 4Mbps, which suggests to me that your TiVos are not synced at anywhere near 802.11g's max of 54Mbps. If that is all you can sustain on your wireless network, you could have trouble with Netflix's HD (which uses a little less than 4Mbps). Does your router report its wireless sync speed to each connected device?

TTG is not going to set any speed records, regardless of connection type. With a wired connection and the latest software, the TivoHD does TTG @ 7-12Mbps. From what I recall, the TiVo Series3 does TTG @ 10-15Mbps. TTG network performance is limited primarily by the Broadcom 300MHz DVR CPU and the need to convert recordings from TiVo's native file format to MPG (within an encrypted wrapper) on the fly, as a background process. MRV is about twice as fast because it does not need to do this conversion.

There is an alternative to wireless that provides faster, more reliable transfers without the need for network cabling -- MoCA. MoCA provides a 100Mbps wired connection using the existing coax cable in your home. Each Motorola NIM100 (~$30 on ebay) has a coax input, a coax [passthrough] output, and a 100Mbps ethernet jack. Instructions:

Disconnect the coax from your TiVo and connect it to the NIM100's coax input, then connect the NIM100's coax output to your TiVo, with an ethernet cable going to the TiVo. Repeat for your other TiVo. Repeat the same thing for your cable modem and Internet router; disconnect the coax from your cable modem and connect it to the input on a NIM100, then connect the coax output from the NIM100 to your cable modem; connect ethernet from the NIM100 to an open port on your router. That's all there is to it; there's nothing else to install or configure. You can place additional NIM100s elsewhere in your home to provide 100Mbps wired connections wherever you have coax.

[lethcoeb]

Thanks for the thoughts.

I actually have no problems in streaming Netflix in decent quality (my internet connection is 6Mbps), and in moving files wirelessly I achieve rated network speeds for 11g and usually upwards to 200Mbps on the 11n side - it is just that the TiVo to TiVo transfers and the TiVo to PC/Mac transfers are dreadfully slow (although MRV transfers are quicker as you note).

I am using all TiVo-branded network adapters, so I cannot place blame on a 3rd party device.

I did look at MOCA boxes on eBay last weekend, so that is a consideration, except that I do not have a cable drop near my router - I would have to put in a drop. But if I do that, I might was well just run Cat6 cables...

Is 4 - 5 Mbps what others achieve using wireless?

[Pilot20]

I have a question regarding the NIM100.

I have my TivoHD connected to my cable broadband via wireless adapter.

I want to be ready for the Netfilx streaming video when available this month.

Will the wireless adapter provide the bandwidth to stream Netflix in high quality, or should I get a NIM100 for better transfer speed?

Will the TivoHD be able to process the faster transfer rates that the NIM100 will provide or is that overkill?

According to Speedtest, I am getting 6703 kb/s download speed.

Thanks.

[lew]

I'm currently using a router configured as an access point with my TivoHD. Will I see any significant improvement if I switched to a NIM100 solution? I have FiOS so I'll only have to purchase one adapter.

What is the best way to test my current speed?

[JWThiers]

I'm currently using a router configured as an access point with my TivoHD. Will I see any significant improvement if I switched to a NIM100 solution? I have FiOS so I'll only have to purchase one adapter.

What is the best way to test my current speed?

Too many variables to say if you have SIGNIFICANT improvement. What flavor of wifi (B,G,N), what other wireless devices are connected, what are they doing, how good is your current connection. In theory, the ethernet on your Tivo won't saturate a 802.11G, but in practice this isn't always the case. A hair dryer could fubar a signal and slow down the connection. In general wired is always better.

[bkdtv]

I have a question regarding the NIM100.

I have my TivoHD connected to my cable broadband via wireless adapter.

I want to be ready for the Netfilx streaming video when available this month.

Will the wireless adapter provide the bandwidth to stream Netflix in high quality, or should I get a NIM100 for better transfer speed?
I'm currently using a router configured as an access point with my TivoHD. Will I see any significant improvement if I switched to a NIM100 solution? I have FiOS so I'll only have to purchase one adapter.

What is the best way to test my current speed?That would depend on your current wireless sync rate with the TivoHD. If you have a strong signal between your router and the Tivo, with minimal interference, the 802.11g adapter should provide more than sufficient throughput for Netflix HD (720p VC-1 @ 3.8Mbps).

Ideally, one would test throughput with a transfer from one HD TiVo to another HD TiVo, while tuned to two different HD channels. The final result of any such transfer will be found under Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Phone & Network -> View network diagnostics -> Transfer history. That will give you the best representation of your TiVo's network performance.

As a quick test, you can connect to your TiVo @ https://<your tivo ip>/ (if you don't know your IP, it can be found on the Phone & Network screen). Start a download from the TiVo and take a look at the throughput reported by your web browser; there are 8 bits in a byte, so 1000KB/s or 1MB/s would translate to a bit over 8Mbps.

I did look at MOCA boxes on eBay last weekend, so that is a consideration, except that I do not have a cable drop near my router - I would have to put in a drop. But if I do that, I might was well just run Cat6 cables...You don't have a cable drop for your cable modem? Your cable modem isn't in the same room with your router? Or are you using DSL?

I actually have no problems in streaming Netflix in decent quality (my internet connection is 6Mbps), and in moving files wirelessly I achieve rated network speeds for 11g and usually upwards to 200Mbps on the 11n side - it is just that the TiVo to TiVo transfers and the TiVo to PC/Mac transfers are dreadfully slow (although MRV transfers are quicker as you note).Streaming Netflix on what? Your PC? I was under the impression that Netflix on TiVo launched later this month.

The sync rate between your router and your PC and between your router and TiVo can be entirely different.

I am using all TiVo-branded network adapters, so I cannot place blame on a 3rd party device. Wireless throughput is affected by all sorts of things, including adjacent wireless networks, enclosed cabinets, adjacent electronics devices, 2.4GHz wireless phones, and various other products that are known to emit RF, including microwaves and various forms of lighting. The relative position of your TiVo wireless adapter to your router and other sources of interference will have a substantial impact on your wireless sync speed, and thereby the performance you achieve.

My D-Link router shows the sync speed for the wireless devices in my home. Below is a screenshot of my router's status screen showing my PC and a PS3, when I was using 2.4Ghz wireless phones. Windows indicates that my PC is sync'd at 54Mbps, but the router confirms that its actual sync rate is only 18Mbps. Maximum real world throughput with 802.11g is about 1/3 your sync rate.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5263/54gru3.png

[acvthree]

Just to mention an alternative, there is also powerline ethernet that puts ethernet over your power from the recepticle near your Tivo to the recepticle near your router. Ethernet speeds without running wires through the walls.

http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking.aspx?for=All

[bkdtv]

Just to mention an alternative, there is also powerline ethernet that puts ethernet over your power from the recepticle near your Tivo to the recepticle near your router. Ethernet speeds without running wires through the walls.

http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking.aspx?for=All
Note with Powerline, you must opt for the Powerline AV (or discontinued Powerline HD Plus) models to see significantly better performance than with 802.11g. The cheaper "Powerline 85Mbps" models deliver similar performance to 802.11g -- slightly better in some cases and worse in others.

[acvthree]

Yes, the Powerline AV seems the best choice and, at least according to a couple of friends, gives good steady performance.

Al

[westside_guy]

Transferring from my Tivo HD seems to top out at around 11-12mbps, no matter how fast a network it's on - so in theory even 802.11g should be much more than adequate (although I've now got mine connected via 802.11n). So before spending lots o' bucks on MOCA, it might be worthwhile to try figuring out why your wireless network performance is sub-optimal.

[lethcoeb]

You don't have a cable drop for your cable modem? Your cable modem isn't in the same room with your router? Or are you using DSL?

I have DSL.


Streaming Netflix on what? Your PC? I was under the impression that Netflix on TiVo launched later this month.
Streaming to my XBOX 360, which sits next to the TiVo Series 3.

My D-Link router shows the sync speed for the wireless devices in my home. Below is a screenshot of my router's status screen showing my PC and a PS3, when I was using 2.4Ghz wireless phones. Windows indicates that my PC is sync'd at 54Mbps, but the router confirms that its actual sync rate is only 18Mbps. Maximum real world throughput with 802.11g is about 1/3 your sync rate.
I would be happy with 18Mbps.

[danm628]

The expected data throughput is roughly half the on air data rate for an 802.11a/b/g device. The protocol overhead eats up the rest with packet preambles, ACKs, gaps between packets, backoff for collisions, etc. 802.11n does better here, aggregate packets and reduced gap durations mean it is more efficient.

Assuming no RF interference you should get roughly 25 to 27 Mbps with 802.11g. Of course there is always interference. In most home environments there is a lot of multi-path interference from the walls, plus noise from other ISM band devices (Bluetooth, microwave ovens, other 802.11 networks on the same channel or nearby channels). So 36 Mbps is more typical and lower isn't uncommon.

802.11n helps with the multi-path issues, MIMO actually depends on multi-path to work. So your 802.11n device will work better indoors than in a large field. The 802.11g device would prefer the large empty field.

Unfortunately most devices don't tell the truth in the network link status; if some data can go through at 54 Mbps they report that, they don't report that they retransmit a large percentage of the packets which lowers the actual rate. Each retransmit at least halves the effect throughput. You need a network sniffer to tell for sure what is happening. Or you need much lower level access to the chipset than you can normally get through Windows or on a Mac. Linux is better but there issues even there.

Due to the retransmissions you may be better off to disable the higher data rates in the AP, assuming it lets you. Listing 36 Mbps as the max may result in an increase in data throughput due to the reduced retransmissions.

You are transferring data over the 802.11g link twice. Once from the TiVo to the AP and then from the AP to the PC. So now you have to halve the data rate again. So for a 54 Mbps air speed the effective throughput TiVo->AP->PC is 13.5 Mbps (best case). If you get one retransmission on each packet it drops to 7 Mbps (ignoring the increased back off -- maybe another .5 Mbps loss from that).

If you PC supports 802.11n at 5 GHz you can almost double your throughput by adding a second AP. Connect the second AP via Ethernet to the first. Make sure the second is configured for 5 GHz operation (less interference but shorter range) or for a different 2.4 GHz channel. If you must stay at 2.4 GHz use 1, 5, 11 as channels on the APs, the ones in-between overlap each other.

As a former 802.11 developer I must admit: Wires are good. :)

- Dan

[lethcoeb]

You are transferring data over the 802.11g link twice. Once from the TiVo to the AP and then from the AP to the PC. So now you have to halve the data rate again. So for a 54 Mbps air speed the effective throughput TiVo->AP->PC is 13.5 Mbps (best case). If you get one retransmission on each packet it drops to 7 Mbps (ignoring the increased back off -- maybe another .5 Mbps loss from that).

I just transferred a show from my Series 3 -> AP -> Tivo HD, and was able to achieve an 8Mbps rate, or just enough to view a 1 hour HD show in real time (actually the transfer was about 53 minutes).

Looks like for Tivo -> Tivo transfers, without the conversion/encryption, I should be happy with that (50 minutes); but for transferring to PC/Mac, it would seem that the conversion/encryption is fairly crippling to the overall speed of transfer (3+ hours).

[moyekj]

I just transferred a show from my Series 3 -> AP -> Tivo HD, and was able to achieve an 8Mbps rate, or just enough to view a 1 hour HD show in real time (actually the transfer was about 53 minutes).

Looks like for Tivo -> Tivo transfers, without the conversion/encryption, I should be happy with that (50 minutes); but for transferring to PC/Mac, it would seem that the conversion/encryption is fairly crippling to the overall speed of transfer (3+ hours). That's very slow. As a comparison for my S3->S3 transfers under normal conditions I get 22-28 Mbps for HD transfers, and from S3->PC I get consistently 11-13 Mbps for HD transfers.
NOTE: I have a hybrid network: S3-MOCA-ROUTER-S3 & ROUTER-802.11n-PC

Previously I had a mostly wireless 802.11g network and struggled to get over 15 Mbps for S3->S3 and 7 Mbps for S3->PC transfers. The more you can cut wireless out of the equation the better off you are.

[lethcoeb]

That's very slow. As a comparison for my S3->S3 transfers under normal conditions I get 22-28 Mbps for HD transfers, and from S3->PC I get consistently 11-13 Mbps for HD transfers.
NOTE: I have a hybrid network: S3-MOCA-ROUTER-S3 & ROUTER-802.11n-PC

Previously I had a mostly wireless 802.11g network and struggled to get over 15 Mbps for S3->S3 and 7 Mbps for S3->PC transfers. The more you can cut wireless out of the equation the better off you are.

Depending on how well my DSL connection continues to work (I have been having problems with it since July) I may consider a switch to cable, and with that I'll likely install a drop near my router for the cable modem and to allow for use of MOCA. At about $30 a pop on eBay, it makes financial sense as well.

Thanks for the info.

[jwehman]

Quick question regarding the NIM100: Can one of the devices (not the one receiving the original cable input, but one of the other "clients") be fed into a normal router? Ie, can I split up the ethernet output to more than one device at a NIM100-client end?

[moyekj]

Quick question regarding the NIM100: Can one of the devices (not the one receiving the original cable input, but one of the other "clients") be fed into a normal router? Ie, can I split up the ethernet output to more than one device at a NIM100-client end? Yes, you simply put that NIM100 on same switch (or router switch) as other ethernet devices.

[fatespawn]

I have a question about transfer rates... I've noticed since the 2008 fall update, my Tivo HD seems quicker. That said, my transfer rates over wireless-g are pretty slow. using the https:// method I downloaded a 346MB file in 4:27. Using iTivo (for the mac) the transfer took 5:25.

I've read that downloading using the webserver method is quicker because the other methods are converting from .tivo to .mpg. My question is shouldn't the download times be identical considering how slow my connection is? What I mean is, converting to .mpg shouldn't require an extra 25% of time when I'm only getting 10mbits in the first place.

My second question is has anyone tried the airport express method to hardwire the tivo to the airport and connect an -n airport to a -n network to increase the download speeds? I happen to have a -n airport express, but haven't spent the coin on a -n router yet. If it would help, I'd go out and buy one, but I'd like to get someone's comparison first.

TIA

[bkdtv]

I've read that downloading using the webserver method is quicker because the other methods are converting from .tivo to .mpg. My question is shouldn't the download times be identical considering how slow my connection is? What I mean is, converting to .mpg shouldn't require an extra 25% of time when I'm only getting 10mbits in the first place.For download to your computer, recordings are always muxed -- on the fly -- from the proprietary TiVo format (on the hard drive) to MPG. In fact, applications like TiVo Desktop and iTiVo just put a different interface on the web (https) downloads.

The TiVo only transfers recordings in original format stored on the hard drive when you use MRV. That's why MRV between TiVos offers 2.0x to 2.5x the throughput of a computer download.

My second question is has anyone tried the airport express method to hardwire the tivo to the airport and connect an -n airport to a -n network to increase the download speeds? I happen to have a -n airport express, but haven't spent the coin on a -n router yet. If it would help, I'd go out and buy one, but I'd like to get someone's comparison first.TIAYou could do that. But it would be more expensive than MoCA.

You achieve maximum performance with MoCA adapters costing $30-$40 each (need one for your router plus one per TiVo, assuming you don't have any TiVos in the same room with your router). That will provide greater real-world throughput than any 802.11n router on the market.