Disk space usage [Text View]

TexasGrillChef

10-28-2008, 03:28 AM

I just don't buy that. It's a simple feature, in anybody's language. I can understand it being down the company's list of priorities for STRATEGIC reasons (wanting to keep the device "black-boxed" so that it doesn't scare off the non-computer-literate buyers, for example). But to cite TECHNICAL reasons is just absurd. It's just a case of agreeing the metrics .... e.g. how to account for the buffer usage, then JFDI. Or am I missing something?

Jeff

Well from experiance and everything that I have seen TiVo officially comment on. As well as some official TiVo surveys that were done. I have come to the conclusion as I have said.

Let's consider what goes into a corporate decesion on features to be added.

1. First and foremost cost / revenue analaysis. How much in $ would adding this feature cost. How much additional revenue will it generate if this feature were added.

2. Budget for next software release. Such as the Fall 2008 release will be coming very soon. Each release has a budget to work in. Included in this budget is payroll costs etc for the programmers. They can only work on so many features at a time. The list of wanted features at one time were well over 100. Disk space usage while requested frequently, has never been in the Top 10 of most requested features. Maybe soon it will make it into the Top 10 if it allready hasn't recently. (Maybe in Hawk???).

3. I just don't buy that. It's a simple feature, in anybody's language. Simple is a realtive term. What is simple to one may not be simple to another. Keep in mind that on a commercial level. It isn't just one programmer that has to write the code for it, but several. Then it has to be checked, rechecked, tested & re-tested. etc... Plus many levels of management approval. As many put it "Red Tape", and as well all know red tape increases the cost.

4. This goes back to #1 listed above. TiVo is in business to make money. Nothing is ever done in any business unless someone beleives it will positively effect the bottom line. This may not always be the case (Think of "New Coke", or the Ford Edsal). Thus it still goes back to the cost/benifit analysis that is always done on every feature suggested for the TiVo, or any other product on the market. I remember many years ago I had a suggestion for a major corporation I worked for. I had to have a cost/benefit & sales analysis done on my suggestion at a cost of $65,000 before they would even consider it! The suggestion only amounted to a $6 increase for another feature to be added to a software package that is now in its 12th revision!

TGC

lessd

10-28-2008, 11:09 AM

Hi,

Apologies if this has been covered recently (I saw some old posts) but are there any plans to include a disk usage analysis page on the Series 3 HD?

TIA.

Jeff

The series 3 now has the possibility of 5 or more record levels each taking a different amount of disk space per hour.

4 analog 1 for digital SD 1 for Digital 720P 1 for Digital 1080i and even within those different record levels the bit rate may not be the same for each channel, especially when you have a cable system that may compress some channels more that others.
The Cable co DVR just gives a % full, that still may be more useful than nothing.

aaronwt

10-28-2008, 01:13 PM

It is as useful has nothing. I have no need for a disck space indicator. The TiVo software works in a way that none is needed. It should be at the bottom of the list for features to work on.

VivaLasVegas

10-28-2008, 01:34 PM

It is as useful has nothing. I have no need for a disck space indicator. The TiVo software works in a way that none is needed. It should be at the bottom of the list for features to work on.

That's a bit extreme. I use the suggestions, so my Tivo should always be 100% full. I'd have no need for a free space indicator. But not everyone uses their tivo the same way (or should). For someone who only records in HD and only has 20hrs of available disk space, this feature might help.
Also, new Tivo users coming from Comcast's DVR seem to need to be talked down from the ledge when it comes to this feature that they've come to rely on.
Everyone's mileage varies...

Craigyg69

10-28-2008, 01:35 PM

VivaLasVegas

10-28-2008, 01:40 PM

Just make sure suggestions are on - and use the number of recorded suggestions as an indicator of how much free space you have. This method has proved to be perfectly suitable for a lot of people here, as well as myself. I'd rather them spend their time on much more interesting features!

Edit: Or what VivaLasVegas said. :)

And I'm with you, too. It doesn't matter to me, but I see people asking for it again and again and again. It probably wouldn't hurt to make them happy. (Otherwise, just give us all XL's and no one will complain about free space indicators anymore! :up:)

nemein

10-28-2008, 03:28 PM

As people have mentioned w/ suggestions turned on you have a pretty good feel for how much free space you have between the suggestions and the recently deleted folders. Personally I think to make it really useful though they don't just need to have a free space indicator but have the indicator broken down by % in recorded shows, % in "save until I delete shows", % in suggestions and % in recently deleted. That'll be the most helpful in trying to figure out if you have enough space on the device to record what you want to record or do you maybe have to offload or delete some things. Frankly having a size indicator on each folder/program would be nice too, but that's probably too much to ask for.

VivaLasVegas

10-28-2008, 03:42 PM

No, I think you're right on the money. If TiVo were to add the feature at all, then they shoud do it right. Be the best! FSI wouldn't be useful at all if it just showed a 0% b/c you had suggestions turned on.
If I did want it....
1.a)I'd want to see % used and GB used by me. % used and GB used by suggestions.% free and GB free.
1.b)The Free space should also estimate how many hours of SD/how many hours of HD.
2. I'd also want to see % used and GB used on every recording's details page.

DallasFlier

10-28-2008, 05:52 PM

1.b)The Free space should also estimate how many hours of SD/how many hours of HD.
And just how would you propose that they do that, since as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are 4 different SD qualities to choose from, and 720p vs 1080i HD takes different amounts of space too?

steve614

10-28-2008, 06:19 PM

jeffrich

10-28-2008, 06:26 PM

It is as useful has nothing. I have no need for a disck space indicator. The TiVo software works in a way that none is needed. It should be at the bottom of the list for features to work on.

If you don't need it, feel free to ignore it.

The Tivo software does not "work in a way that none is needed". it's not a case of the Tivo "working". 1. I wish to know my disk usage at any given time. 2. Tivo will not tell me.

Are you saying that just because your car 's petrol guage will start ding'ing when you are almost empty, then you don't need a guage?

What we are talking about is system feedback. I like to know exactly what's going on at any given time, with any system I'm using. And this is not a big ask.

Jeff

jeffrich

10-28-2008, 06:42 PM

And just how would you propose that they do that, since as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are 4 different SD qualities to choose from, and 720p vs 1080i HD takes different amounts of space too?

OK. So the Tivo already knows the number of Gb free (df -k).

Make it a user selectable option as to their preferred recording quality (tick box out of multiple selection menu), and apply the metric for that particular recording quality to all statistics subsequently shown.

It could then report either "% recording space remaining" or "hours of recording space remaining" MINUS "space required for the 30 minute buffer" MINUS "Suggestions". And all of these calculations are based on actual Gb free with the user's preferred recording quality metric applied.

Of course, the user is not compelled to always record in their selected quality preference and could change their mind on any specific recording, thereby invalidating these stats. So maybe "% free" and "hours free" are an issue. in which case, just reporting Gb free (which is all I personally would require) would be an accurate, quality-agnostic way to go.

Jeff

lessd

10-28-2008, 07:35 PM

The ability to choose a quality level will soon be going away for OTA -- as that applies to analog only.

For me, the Recently Deleted folder is all I need.
I keep a few recordings in Now Playing that I don't care whether they get deleted -- as a buffer, and I keep an eye on my Recently Deleted folder.
If it gets close to being emptied, I know I either need to watch some TV or transfer some shows to PC to maintain space.

People using a Digital cable box than a Series 2 (or Series 1) TiVo will still have the four analog recording times. For the Series 3 using cable cards the four analog record times have already been taken away as all recordings are digital, even for non HD channels (at least on my Comcast system). On my Series 3 using cable cards I never have any say in the record quality, but i do have one Series 3 without cable cards and on that TiVo the analog quality is still an option.

jeffrich

10-28-2008, 08:12 PM

Just make sure suggestions are on - and use the number of recorded suggestions as an indicator of how much free space you have. This method has proved to be perfectly suitable for a lot of people here, as well as myself. I'd rather them spend their time on much more interesting features!

Edit: Or what VivaLasVegas said. :)

"Suggestions" is not a feature I use and switching it on is not an acceptable way of my getting the information I would like to see. It's only indicative at best, giving a rough feel for how things are looking.

Again, this feature is not effort-intensive and really should not be at the cost of much else on the roadmap. The o/s already has this information; it's just a question of deciding how to present it.

Low hanging fruit, and all that :)

Jeff

txporter

10-28-2008, 09:30 PM

captkirk685

10-28-2008, 10:15 PM

And just how would you propose that they do that, since as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are 4 different SD qualities to choose from, and 720p vs 1080i HD takes different amounts of space too?

I have a dvd recorder with built in hard drive and it has a FSI and it gives me a different amount for each recording setting, very simple way to solve that problem. I don't use suggestions and I don't think its too much to ask to know when tivo is going to start deleting my programs off my hard drive.

mattack

10-28-2008, 10:21 PM

I am fairly certain that your tivo is basically always full (once it records enough to be so). Whether it is suggestions or those files in the deleted folder, it stores as much as it can and expels files once it fills up. It would need to return the percentage of files in the deleted folder as your "free" space.

Obviously. Everyone who wants a free space indicator(*), understands that what they want is simply an amount of space NOT taken up by programs the user has in their Now Playing list. (Suggestions & Recently Deleted don't count for this calculation of course.)

For the oh-so-common "oh but the sizes can be different" retort, just say:
23 hours at Basic quality, 2.5 minutes at the highest HDTV resolution

(or use the user's default recording quality for the analog calculation.)

(*) I would pay a one time fee for a _good_ free space indicator for my Tivos, even though I have lifetime subscriptions. Though at the moment I have 230 suggestions (and it has been stuck at this number for many days) and over 200 recently deleted folders, since I put in a gig hard drive in my S3 and record in analog basic -- though I transfer some recordings from my Tivo HD where I am playing with an antenna (spotty reception though).

jeffrich

10-28-2008, 11:32 PM

astrohip

10-28-2008, 11:36 PM

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/2/2d/BeatDeadHorse.gif/180px-BeatDeadHorse.gif

steve614

10-28-2008, 11:40 PM

That image cracks me up every time. :)

aaronwt

10-28-2008, 11:42 PM

If you don't need it, feel free to ignore it.

The TiVo software does not "work in a way that none is needed". it's not a case of the TiVo "working". 1. I wish to know my disk usage at any given time. 2. TiVo will not tell me.

Are you saying that just because your car 's petrol gauge will start ding'ing when you are almost empty, then you don't need a guage?

What we are talking about is system feedback. I like to know exactly what's going on at any given time, with any system I'm using. And this is not a big ask.

Jeff

I could easily get by without a fuel gauge in my cars. They average around 30 mpg, so I get gas every 300 to350 miles. Plus in 850K miles of driving over the last 26 years I've never run out of gas anyway.
If TiVo offered a free space indicator it would need to show how much you could record too, which is impossible. I've been recording HD since 2001 and I've seen hour long shows range from 2GB to 8.5 GB. There is no way to know how much space will be used before hand which makes a free space indicator useless. TiVo automatically deletes the oldest show. If you don't want a particular title deleted you mark it so it's not deleted. In the 7 years I've been using TiVos I can't think of one time where a free space indicator would have helped me.

Now if you have some crappy DVR that won't record anything if the drive is full I could see how a free space indicator would be important. But you couldn't pay me to use any of those DVRs.

jeffrich

10-29-2008, 12:58 AM

If TiVo offered a free space indicator it would need to show how much you could record too, which is impossible. I've been recording HD since 2001 and I've seen hour long shows range from 2GB to 8.5 GB. There is no way to know how much space will be used before hand which makes a free space indicator useless.

No, a free space indicator indicates free space, not "recording time remaining".

And just because you don't know how much space a given show would potentially take up does not make a free space indicator useless. It provides valuable feedback on your disk status, your usage profile of that disk etc. I don't like "black boxes", I like to know what's going on under the hood.

jeff

astrohip

10-29-2008, 11:47 AM

No, a free space indicator indicates free space, not "recording time remaining"
For a new member with 9 posts, this is a very astute statement! :up:

At the risk of violating my own "beating the dead horse" post, what most FSI requests have been about is a simple % indicator. I have three different DVRs (TiVo, DirecTV, cableco), and only the TiVo refuses to embrace this evil concept. Neither of the other two attempt to tell you how much you can record, or when it will fill up, or how many hours are left, or who will win the election. They simply tell you what percent of the hard drive is being used. And it doesn't count suggestions or deleted recordings.

Do I really need it on my TiVo? No. I've used TiVos for years, and am very familiar with how they work, and instead use the "Recently Deleted Folder" to manage disk space. But I can see how a new user would want some feedback. This of course, is why the FSI question comes up about once a month, and always from a new user.

While I am an old pro with TiVo, I am a new DirecTV user, about 2 months. I have no idea how big the hard drive is, nor do I know how many shows it can hold, or even how it decides what to delete (delete oldest first, or stop recording new shows, or what?). So... after a few days of recording, when I had 4-6 HD shows recorded, I looked at the space used indicator (right on the bottom of the Program List page), and it told me I had used 14%, with 86% free. That was exactly what I needed! I now have a feel for how many shows it can hold. I will continue to monitor it, both to refine my knowledge of it, and to remain aware of how much space is left.

Now was that so hard . . . :confused:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS: For those of you who continue to insist that your TiVo is "always full" because of suggestions or deleted recordings, I can only shake my head and sympathize with your spouses. Life must be a b*tch living with you... :D

aaronwt

10-29-2008, 01:24 PM

Now was that so hard . . . :confused:

Yes:D

Obviously, if TiVo felt a free space indicator was improtant, they would have added one by now. Now perhaps they will add one in the future, and if they do that's fine.

retired_guy

10-29-2008, 01:53 PM

Whenever my wife and I look at television, the first thing she'll typically ask me is how much space we have available. I'll go to the listing of recordings, skip to the bottom and look at the size of the delete folder. In our case, we don't use suggestions, so the delete folder size is all we need to look at. Then we skip back to the top of the list or perhaps to the main menu from which we can look at what's coming to record in the case space is tight.

What would make sense for us and I suspect most would be to show somewhere on the primary menu the sum of the recordings in the delete folder and the suggestions folder. For example, it could indicate "recordings available to delete = nnn" at the bottom of the main menu. While this wouldn't show anything one couldn't get by jumping around a bit, it would save a bit of time as well as provide a warning when space is low and one needs to do some deleting or else something perhaps will be lost that they would want to keep. And it seems as though it would be trivial to implement since all the data is easily available.

I know that such a feature has a number of problems. For example, many hours of SD digital might not provide enough space for a HD football game. A new user would see a small number and perhaps get overly concerned about space. But no solution will be perfect for reasons previously discussed, but such a number would seem to me to be useful and a few words about this issue in the reference manual could minimize misunderstandings on the issue for newer users.

VivaLasVegas

10-29-2008, 03:14 PM

And just how would you propose that they do that, since as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are 4 different SD qualities to choose from, and 720p vs 1080i HD takes different amounts of space too?

The key word was "estimate". Why does it say 20hrs of HD and 180hrs of SD for a TiVoHD? Don't they know about all the variations? They do and it's an estimate.
The trip computer in your car may say you have 100 miles until empty. From then on, you may only drive downhill or you may only drive at 6,000rpm and YMMV. But it's still helpful, isn't it?

Teddydogno1

10-29-2008, 06:20 PM

Doesn't seem like rocket science. All they have to do is give a percentage of free space (or used space like the Comcast DVR does) just to give folks an idea of what's up. This would be VERY useful, without even trying to estimate the number of hours of recording this represents.

Yes, I'm a former Comcast DVR user and I'm really surprised to learn that Tivo does not have this very basic feature.

Rob

mattack

10-29-2008, 10:31 PM

No, a free space indicator indicates free space, not "recording time remaining".

No, I want recording time remaining, or else I'm going to have to guesstimate the math, which is what I *already* do based upon the suggestions + recently deleted.

Like I already said, give me the best (analog basic) and worst (highest bit rate HD broadcast) as time estimates. That's all I want/need.

My non-Tivo hard drive recorder tells me how much space is available in time, and I use it VERY often. Of course, it records at a fixed bitrate (that I can set), but the preceeding paragraph tells exactly how to give me useful information.

astrohip

10-29-2008, 10:43 PM

Obviously, if TiVo felt a free space indicator was important, they would have added one by now.
Not a valid argument. I can stretch this logic and say *any* feature not currently implemented isn't important. But in reality, it could be one of a hundred reasons. Too expensive, too hard to do, creates too many other problems, too low on the priority list (AKA not important). The folks at TiVo may feel it is counter-productive, and would lead to far more problems than it would solve (which has always been my guess). Since they don't talk about it, we can only surmise.

No, I want recording time remaining, or else I'm going to have to guesstimate the math, which is what I *already* do based upon the suggestions + recently deleted.

Like I already said, give me the best (analog basic) and worst (highest bit rate HD broadcast) as time estimates. That's all I want/need.
That would seem to me to be such a wide range as to be almost useless. For example, right now my main TiVo would tell me "You have between 80 and 750 hours of recording time left". Can you imagine when you check Properties on your windoze hard drive, if instead of telling you 42GB left (36%), it told you "You can store between 30 and 650 videos on this HD".

FSI. Free. Space. Indicator.

TexasGrillChef

10-30-2008, 12:40 AM

For me... A disk usuage indicator would be nice. But in all honesty kinda pointless for me.

Why? Several reasons...

1. I have 1.75tb worth of hard drive space on my S3. Giving me an average of aproximately 231hrs of HD and over 2300 hrs of SD. More then enough space to not have to worry about filling it up. Even if I am gone for a whole month. My S3 records on average 35 to 40 hours per week. 30 to 35 of those hours are HD. So.... 231 hrs would give me about 9 weeks of recording.

2. I have three (3) Raid 5 NAS (Networked Attached Storage) devices on my network. Each unit has a usefull total space of 4.5TB each (4x1.5tb in Raid 5 mode). I also have older XP system running Tivo Desktop and pyTiVo. That desktop can easily snatch off the shows on my TiVo S3 and save them to any one of the 3 NAS systems. In effect I can go a complete YEAR without worrying about LOSING any programing.

So a diskspace indicator would be a nice novelty for me. But of no real value to me. I honestly would rather TiVo spent money on improving current features or adding new ones such as NETFLIX or getting "HAWK" released to us!

TGC

doconeill

10-30-2008, 09:33 AM

OK, let me throw this out there from a Computer Science/Operating Systems point of view.

DVD recorders, computers, etc. all use basically similar file system formats to store data in a hierarchical file/directory (or folder if you prefer) format. They are variations on a theme that files are discrete objects, and location on disk is (relatively) unimportant, and the ratio of quantity of files to their size is expected to be high. Determining free space is a relatively quick process by reading certain structures and not the file contents.

TiVo uses a proprietary format designed for streaming video, which has different requirements. Since it is proprietary I can't speak to the actuals, but a complex file/directory structure is not necessary in relation to the size of the files, as the files are much larger and the number of them is much less. Location is important for speed optimization. It is entirely possible that determining free/used space is a much more complex and expensive operation which could impact the performance of the unit.

Aside from that, we all know the TiVo computed the amount of space it needs for future recordings in sometimes unexpected ways. All they need is people calling up saying "It just deleted the last 5 episodes of Law and Order in my KUID Season Pass even though it said I had 20% of my space free! Bring back my programs now!"

astrohip

10-30-2008, 12:42 PM

It is entirely possible that determining free/used space is a much more complex and expensive operation which could impact the performance of the unit.

Aside from that, we all know the TiVo computed the amount of space it needs for future recordings in sometimes unexpected ways. All they need is people calling up saying "It just deleted the last 5 episodes of Law and Order in my KUID Season Pass even though it said I had 20% of my space free! Bring back my programs now!"
100% disagree. Figuring free space on a HD will take 1/1000000 of a second, even on a TiVo.

And if it's a KUID SP, it can't delete episodes. It may not *record* new ones, but it won't delete old ones.

TexasGrillChef

10-30-2008, 01:36 PM

100% disagree. Figuring free space on a HD will take 1/1000000 of a second, even on a TiVo.

And if it's a KUID SP, it can't delete episodes. It may not *record* new ones, but it won't delete old ones.

True it won't delete those shows... it won't record new ones....

However.. that 1/1000000 of a second the TiVo could be busy doing something else more important. :D

TGC

aaronwt

10-30-2008, 11:39 PM

Aside from that, we all know the TiVo computed the amount of space it needs for future recordings in sometimes unexpected ways. All they need is people calling up saying "It just deleted the last 5 episodes of Law and Order in my KUID Season Pass even though it said I had 20% of my space free! Bring back my programs now!"

iF it is really a simple thing to add then this would truly explian why a free space indicator isn't added, your average user(which no one on this forum is) has no idea what the free space means. Heck your average user might think they are watching HD programming only because they have an HD set. Bottom line is your average user has no clue, just like with a PC.

astrohip

10-31-2008, 01:14 AM

Heck your average user might think they are watching HD programming only because they have an HD set. Bottom line is my MIL has no clue, just like with a PC.
FYP. :D

I'll never forget when my MIL invited us over to see her new HD TV. She had bought a new Bravia XBR-3, nicely mounted on the wall. My first clue something was wrong was when I saw the three cables feeding the TV (red/white/yellow of composite). I'm thinking--HD? Turns out she was feeding it with an SD cable box, set on an SD channel. Of course the installer had set it for Zoom or Widescreen or whatever you call it when it fills the screen. The picture was stretched so bad it looked worse than SD! But as far as she was concerned, she had HD!

I started to explain that she needed to get an HD cable box from TWC, and subscribe to the HD package. I quickly came to my senses and just watched her beautiful picture. :rolleyes:

TexasGrillChef

10-31-2008, 01:35 AM

The key word was "estimate". Why does it say 20hrs of HD and 180hrs of SD for a TiVoHD? Don't they know about all the variations? They do and it's an estimate.
The trip computer in your car may say you have 100 miles until empty. From then on, you may only drive downhill or you may only drive at 6,000rpm and YMMV. But it's still helpful, isn't it?

The trip computer in my car on how far to empty is acurate within .1 of a mile. Yes, seems my wife has tested that a few times sad to say.

TGC

jeffrich

10-31-2008, 02:07 AM

But I can see how a new user would want some feedback. This of course, is why the FSI question comes up about once a month, and always from a new user.

Man, it's been a long, long time since anyone called me a "user", especially a "new" one ;-)

Ironically, the reason I would want to see this facility is exactly the opposite. I'm a systems architect who, for instance, never touches Windows, and a big fan of gkrellm on all my Linux boxes (i.e. feedback-city!). And I know that's a nice, flexible Linux system hiding under than shiny, "let's impress the (real) new users" Tivo front-end. And that's also why I know it's not difficult to implement.

But I'm beginning to feel sorry for that horse, so I think I'll throw away the stick at this point and get around to finishing that Myth TV build once and for all, where I can get everything I'm looking for.

Jeff

CharlesH

10-31-2008, 07:57 PM

Ironically, the reason I would want to see this facility is exactly the opposite. I'm a systems architect who, for instance, never touches Windows, and a big fan of gkrellm on all my Linux boxes (i.e. feedback-city!). And I know that's a nice, flexible Linux system hiding under than shiny, "let's impress the (real) new users" Tivo front-end. And that's also why I know it's not difficult to implement.
The video content on a TiVo is stored in a proprietary file system format. A standard Linux file system is used for the OS, but not the video. But the big problem with "disk space usage" on a TiVo is not at the file system level. Rather, it is what to count as "free". There are (at least) recently-deleted, suggestions, expired user-requested programs, unexpired user-requested programs, and space reserved for future recordings. If you have suggestions turned on, the file system will always be full, from a file system point of view, but that won't prevent the system from recording something new, if it can toss enough from all but the unexpired user-requested category.

TonyD79

10-31-2008, 10:29 PM

Well from experiance and everything that I have seen TiVo officially comment on. As well as some official TiVo surveys that were done. I have come to the conclusion as I have said.

Let's consider what goes into a corporate decesion on features to be added.

1. First and foremost cost / revenue analaysis. How much in $ would adding this feature cost. How much additional revenue will it generate if this feature were added.

Oh, nonsense. Not everything in software is based upon cost/revenue. If that were true, what is the cost/revenue analysis for the little Tivo movie when you boot your machine? Where do they get money for that? Or the change in a font from one release to another. Where is the revenue in that.

As for the rest of the "argument." They do have the size of each recording in the info screen. And, gee, my DirecTV DVRs, even the crappy Comcast DVR I replaced has a disk usage number.

Wow. How hard to caculcate. How many much disk space is used. Divide by the size of the disk useable by the user and multiply by 100. Man, that is hard code to write.

Then we get into all the arguments about suggestions, etc. Well, the DirecTV DVR that has no suggestions shows the disk used in three breakdowns. How much is KUID. How much is used and how much is empty. So, add suggestions to that breakdown and voila, a disk used indicator.

The nonsense about that the Tivo is going to record, etc., so the data is useless is like saying I can't look at how much my PC is using because I may download a big video file tomorrow.

Absolute ******** and usually used as an argument by Tivo fanboys who think Tivo can do no wrong. (Watch if they put one in how excited those same people will be.)

All I know is that anything that needs a work-around like filling the disk with suggestions and is used by so many people as a workaround shows a serious flaw in reasoning and points out a missing feature.

steve614

10-31-2008, 11:51 PM

Well, the DirecTV DVR that has no suggestions shows the disk used in three breakdowns. How much is KUID. How much is used and how much is empty. So, add suggestions to that breakdown and voila, a disk used indicator.

TivoPlayList has a pie chart showing this kind of info so the Tivo DVR obviously has the data at hand.
Maybe the people at Tivo should collaborate with the author of TivoPlayList on how to show this info on the Tivo unit.

astrohip

10-31-2008, 11:58 PM

<snip> They simply tell you what percent of the hard drive is being used. And it doesn't count suggestions or deleted recordings.
<snip>
PS: For those of you who continue to insist that your TiVo is "always full" because of suggestions or deleted recordings, I can only shake my head and sympathize with your spouses. Life must be a b*tch living with you... :D

But the big problem with "disk space usage" on a TiVo is not at the file system level. Rather, it is what to count as "free". There are (at least) recently-deleted, suggestions, expired user-requested programs, unexpired user-requested programs, and space reserved for future recordings. If you have suggestions turned on, the file system will always be full, from a file system point of view, but that won't prevent the system from recording something new, if it can toss enough from all but the unexpired user-requested category.
Charles, charles, charles. Even after my post about "someone is gonna insist it's always full 'cause of deleted shows, etc" and what BS that argument is, you go and say exactly that. So disappointing. :(

BTW, did you know your gas tank is always full? Even as the fluid level decreases, the vacated space fills up with air. Between the gas and the deleted gas (AKA air), your tank is always full. YET... they have invented this incredible device that can tell the difference between gas and deleted gas, and give you a visual clue as to how much gas is left.

And to address your comment in red (I added the red), maybe it's full from a file-system POV, but most of us are humans, not file-systems. And from a human POV, it ain't full.

CharlesH

11-01-2008, 05:37 PM

Charles, charles, charles. Even after my post about "someone is gonna insist it's always full 'cause of deleted shows, etc" and what BS that argument is, you go and say exactly that. So disappointing. :(

BTW, did you know your gas tank is always full? Even as the fluid level decreases, the vacated space fills up with air. Between the gas and the deleted gas (AKA air), your tank is always full. YET... they have invented this incredible device that can tell the difference between gas and deleted gas, and give you a visual clue as to how much gas is left.

And to address your comment in red (I added the red), maybe it's full from a file-system POV, but most of us are humans, not file-systems. And from a human POV, it ain't full.I was specifically addressing the point a poster made suggesting that from the OS point of view, it should be simple to determine free space, which I just wanted to point out, is not relevant in the TiVo case. Not that there isn't reasonable information that could be trivially displayed; of course there is. But it is not the trivial slam-dunk situation that you seem to indicate. Are suggestions to be counted? What about space reserved for future recordings? Expired programs? And yes, the obvious solution is to just display the proportion in each category, and let the user decide what "free" means to them, and I don't see why TiVo doesn't just display that, and save us from this recurrent thread. Maybe its a "religious" issue for someone in a position of influence at TiVo.

And the business about the gas tank seems a bit irrelevant to me, since the gas gauge is designed to indicated the proportion of its capacity that is occupied by liquid. One could make the same argument that a hard drive is always full of disk blocks, but standard file system tools distinguish the blocks on the free list/MFT/superblock/etc. (And actually, in some cars like the Prius, the gas tank is a flexible bladder which, in one sense, is always "full" of gasoline.)

jeffrich

11-01-2008, 05:42 PM

The video content on a TiVo is stored in a proprietary file system format. A standard Linux file system is used for the OS, but not the video. But the big problem with "disk space usage" on a TiVo is not at the file system level. Rather, it is what to count as "free". There are (at least) recently-deleted, suggestions, expired user-requested programs, unexpired user-requested programs, and space reserved for future recordings. If you have suggestions turned on, the file system will always be full, from a file system point of view, but that won't prevent the system from recording something new, if it can toss enough from all but the unexpired user-requested category.

"Suggestions" is a configurable option - and so should use of the "Recently deleted" facility be. Fwiw, I would use neither. Regardless, free disk space would obviously take the use of both options into account. There is no "problem" here - free disk space is an absolute, deterministic value, no debate. And if you used either/both of the "Suggestions" and/or "Recently deleted" facilities, it would be of appropriate value to you.

And you say Tivo have written their own file system? Even if that were true (could you qualify that?), why would that imply that the calculation of free disk space would be an issue?

Jeff

jeffrich

11-01-2008, 05:46 PM

I was specifically addressing the point a poster made suggesting that from the OS point of view, it should be simple to determine free space, which I just wanted to point out, is not relevant in the TiVo case. Not that there isn't reasonable information that could be trivially displayed; of course there is. But it is not the trivial slam-dunk situation that you seem to indicate. Are suggestions to be counted? What about space reserved for future recordings? Expired programs? And yes, the obvious solution is to just display the proportion in each category, and let the user decide what "free" means to them, and I don't see why TiVo doesn't just display that, and save us from this recurrent thread. Maybe its a "religious" issue for someone in a position of influence at TiVo.

And the business about the gas tank seems a bit irrelevant to me, since the gas gauge is designed to indicated the proportion of its capacity that is occupied by liquid. One could make the same argument that a hard drive is always full of disk blocks, but standard file system tools distinguish the blocks on the free list/MFT/superblock/etc. (And actually, in some cars like the Prius, the gas tank is a flexible bladder which, in one sense, is always "full" of gasoline.)

Why is it not relevant?

Yes, "Suggestions" are to be counted as they occupy space.

No, future recordings are not to be counted as they do not occupy space.

Yes, expired programs are to be counted (if you are referring to "Recently deleted", as they occupy space.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Jeff

CharlesH

11-01-2008, 06:02 PM

"Suggestions" is a configurable option - and so should use of the "Recently deleted" facility be. Fwiw, I would use neither. Regardless, free disk space would obviously take the use of both options into account. There is no "problem" here - free disk space is an absolute, deterministic value, no debate. And if you used either/both of the "Suggestions" and/or "Recently deleted" facilities, it would be of appropriate value to you.

And you say Tivo have written their own file system? Even if that were true (could you qualify that?), why would that imply that the calculation of free disk space would be an issue?

JeffI guess today just isn't my day for posting on this forum. :( First, I get slammed by astrohip for being pedantic about the meaning of "free space" on the TiVo hard drive, and then by Jeff for not acknowledging that "free space" is something trivially and deterministically computed by the file system.

I don't know of good references for the TiVo Media File System (MFS), but here is the Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivo%27s_Media_File_System).

My comment about "reserved" space is the observation that at least sometimes, TiVo reserves space for future recordings, and for all practical purposes, this space is "in use". By "expired", I am referring to shows beyond their "keep until" date (yellow "!" dot), not deleted shows. These "expired" programs will be deleted to make space for new user-requested programs (but not for suggestions), if deleting Recently Deleted and Suggestions doesn't free up enough space.

jeffrich

11-01-2008, 06:41 PM

I guess today just isn't my day for posting on this forum. :( First, I get slammed by astrohip for being pedantic about the meaning of "free space" on the TiVo hard drive, and then by Jeff for not acknowledging that "free space" is something trivially and deterministically computed by the file system.

I don't know of good references for the TiVo Media File System (MFS), but here is the Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivo%27s_Media_File_System).

My comment about "reserved" space is the observation that at least sometimes, TiVo reserves space for future recordings, and for all practical purposes, this space is "in use". By "expired", I am referring to shows beyond their "keep until" date (yellow "!" dot), not deleted shows. These "expired" programs will be deleted to make space for new user-requested programs (but not for suggestions), if deleting Recently Deleted and Suggestions doesn't free up enough space.

Hey Charles, didn't mean to slam you man, just good healthy debate is all :) Good to hear you getting involved!

But I still don't agree with your comment about future recordings - if it's in the future, it clearly is not being used, regardless of intent. And the expired programs - as I said, if they are still there, they are using space. It really is that simple. Forget about plans/intent/expirations - disk usage is a snapshot status of what is there right now.

Jeff

Devx

11-01-2008, 07:07 PM

Don't mean to join in late or slam anyone but I've never noticed Tivo actually reserving space for future recordings. When you select a new program to record, it will reject it if during its calculations it detects that you may not have enough space available to record. If programs are deleted so the new program does have space it is still not reserved space. The remaining space can be freely used by other programs until the time of the recording as long as additional programs are not marked as KUID.

aaronwt

11-02-2008, 11:14 PM

astrohip

11-04-2008, 12:18 AM

If people don't like the fact that there is no free space indicator then they should just go use one of the crappy cable company DVRS that have one.
Right on bro! Love it or leave it. My way or the highway. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. ...

Piece out!

DallasFlier

11-04-2008, 01:47 AM

jeffrich on 10/31:
But I'm beginning to feel sorry for that horse, so I think I'll throw away the stick at this point and get around to finishing that Myth TV build once and for all, where I can get everything I'm looking for.
oops, jeffrich on 11/01:
"Suggestions" is a configurable option - and so should use of the "Recently deleted" facility be. Fwiw, I would use neither. Regardless, free disk space would obviously take the use of both options into account. There is no "problem" here - free disk space is an absolute, deterministic value, no debate. And if you used either/both of the "Suggestions" and/or "Recently deleted" facilities, it would be of appropriate value to you.

And you say Tivo have written their own file system? Even if that were true (could you qualify that?), why would that imply that the calculation of free disk space would be an issue?
jeffrich again on 11/01:
Why is it not relevant?

Yes, "Suggestions" are to be counted as they occupy space.

No, future recordings are not to be counted as they do not occupy space.

Yes, expired programs are to be counted (if you are referring to "Recently deleted", as they occupy space.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
and... jeffrich yet again on 11/01!
Hey Charles, didn't mean to slam you man, just good healthy debate is all :) Good to hear you getting involved!

But I still don't agree with your comment about future recordings - if it's in the future, it clearly is not being used, regardless of intent. And the expired programs - as I said, if they are still there, they are using space. It really is that simple. Forget about plans/intent/expirations - disk usage is a snapshot status of what is there right now.
Hmm, guess you changed your mind and decided not to throw away that stick and keep beating that dead horse anyway?

FYI, a simple search will turn up literally DOZENS of these threads here over the last several years. You really ARE beating a dead horse. :rolleyes:

aaronwt

11-04-2008, 01:46 PM

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/2/2d/BeatDeadHorse.gif/180px-BeatDeadHorse.gif

lrhorer

11-04-2008, 09:12 PM

BTW, did you know your gas tank is always full? Even as the fluid level decreases, the vacated space fills up with air.
That's completely specious. The TiVo's hard drive is far from being analogous to a gas tank. Gasoline in a tank is a limited resource. With a DVR, and particularly a Tivo, it's just the opposite. The closer to being "out of free space", the better. Any TiVo whose hard drive is not effectively full as close to 100% of the time as practical is being underutilized. In a limited fashion, the TiVo is more like a free-flowing basin than an automobile. The free-flowing basin is always full, but its contents are constantly being replaced with new material displacing the old. It's not that it's any big deal to create a drive utilization application for the TiVo. There are a number of 3rd party ones available. It's that there is no meaningful way to do the measurement, in terms of giving a user some bit of information he needs to know to augment the use of the TiVo.

As long as one will have plenty of time to skim over the extant recordings before the oldest of them will be deleted, then nothing more needs to be known. That measure is taken not by how full the TiVo's drive is, but by how old on average the oldest non-KUID programs are. Every once in a while, turn off groups and sort by date, taking note of how old the oldest non-KUID programs are. The time interval from that date to the present is roughly how long one has to either watch a program or to take steps to see to it a given program isn't lost accidentally. If the users finds the oldest programs are less than a comfortable interval - I suggest no less than 2 - 4 weeks depending on one's viewing habits, then the user is advised to increase the size of his storage. For the sake of argument, say the user's TiVo in ordinary use keeps every recording at least 2 weeks. (This autoimatically takes into account the amount of programming the TiVo records and t he user watches and deletes.) The user of this TiVo should then make it a point to skim through the NPL at least once every week to see if any of the programs which are more than 1 week old are ones whihc the user wishes to watch, spool to other media, or set to KUxx until they can get to them.

Between the gas and the deleted gas (AKA air), your tank is always full. YET... they have invented this incredible device that can tell the difference between gas and deleted gas, and give you a visual clue as to how much gas is left.
The automobile will cease to function if the supply of gas is exhausted. When the TiVo fills up, it will continue to function precisely as it did prior to being full. When the gas tank is nearling empty, the driver's range of choices become rapidly limited. When the Tivo is neaing full, the TiVo viewer's range of choices is maximized. An empty gas tank is a situation abouyt which one should be concerned. A full TiVo is an optimum operating condition.

And to address your comment in red (I added the red), maybe it's full from a file-system POV, but most of us are humans, not file-systems. And from a human POV, it ain't full.
No, it's full, period, or should be. I have three TiVos, and all three of them are chock full to the brim except right after a watch a show and delete it, or delete some number I know I will never want to watch (usually season passes which record reruns I've already seen and don't csare to see again). The size of the "recently deleted" folder giveso ne a rough idea of how "full" the TiVo is, and all of my recently deleted folders are virtually always empty. Any of the third party utilities - when I've bothered to try them - show all three as 100% full the vast majorty of the time.

lrhorer

11-04-2008, 09:32 PM

Why is it not relevant?
Well, first of all, those who call for a free space meter are trying to measure the wrong thing, like trying to deduce the amount of time it will take to reach one's destination by looking at the gas guage.

Yes, "Suggestions" are to be counted as they occupy space.
Many people say, "No, they shouldn't". Others agree with you. The point so many seem to miss is that either way, the metric does not provide one with an effortless means of managing the recordings on the TiVo. The program management metric is determined by how long at a minimum a program remains on the TiVo before being automatically deleted. That is determined by looking at the dates of the oldest programs on the TiVo, and has nothing to do with how "full" the Tivo is.

No, future recordings are not to be counted as they do not occupy space.
Again, some would agree with you. Others do not. Certainly, if the intent is to manage the recordings on the Tivo, this must be taken into account in some way, as otherwise recordings may be accidentally lost - provided one is using the "free space" to avoid such a situation.

Yes, expired programs are to be counted (if you are referring to "Recently deleted", as they occupy space.
I think most people would disagree, particularly if the goal is not to accidentally lose some desirable programs by having them overwritten.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
'Because it is a concept which has little or no relevance to the operation and management of the Tivo. It has somewhat more relevance to the operation of other DVRs. It has great relevfance to VCRs and ordinary PCs, which is to what most people are accustomed.

lrhorer

11-04-2008, 10:22 PM

As for the rest of the "argument." They do have the size of each recording in the info screen. And, gee, my DirecTV DVRs, even the crappy Comcast DVR I replaced has a disk usage number.
It's not a matter of "even". It's a matter of the fact the Comcast needs the space meter because it is crappy. It's drive is too small to allow for effortless media management, and it has none of the heuristics for automatic management the Tivo does nor the ability to fill the hard drive the way the Tivo does - most notably TiVo Suggestions. On the Tivo it would be a largely useless artifact whose use detracts from the effortless management of the Tivo without lending anything much in return. Any really decent DVR doesn't need one.

One can put a gas gauge on a sailing ship, too, but what good is it?

Wow. How hard to caculcate. How many much disk space is used.
Used by what? The first thing the proponents of the "free space" indicator fail to understand is in a group of 10 people, there will be no fewer than 7 different opinions of what should be considered "used". Should we count suggestions, or not? Count deleted but still available programs, or not? Count actively scheduled but not yet recorded programs, or not? Count expired programs, or not?

Divide by the size of the disk useable by the user and multiply by 100. Man, that is hard code to write.
And the answer (presuming there were just one, and not 20 different ones) gives the user an understanding of... what? Other than the fact that if the free space is not zero then the TiVo needs to record some additional programs - which presumably will happen no matter what - what cognitive artifact of relevance may one draw from the fact the TiVo is 97% full?

Then we get into all the arguments about suggestions, etc. Well, the DirecTV DVR that has no suggestions shows the disk used in three breakdowns. How much is KUID. How much is used and how much is empty. So, add suggestions to that breakdown and voila, a disk used indicator.
Which still tells one nothing with which one need concern ones self, unless one is merely obsessed with measuring things.

The nonsense about that the Tivo is going to record, etc., so the data is useless is like saying I can't look at how much my PC is using because I may download a big video file tomorrow.
In this context, the TiVo is not like a PC at all. The data on the PC is not inherently transient. While one may of course keep a recording on one's TiVo indefinitely - I have some that are nearly 2 years old on two of my Tivos - the general intent of the Tivo is to acquire the data, make it available for viewing for a time, and then delete it.

Although not relevant, your comment concerning the PC is specious as well. The PC does not know it will be downloading some number of gigabytes of data tomorrow. The TiVo does. When you manage the drive on your PC, the amount of data you will be downloading in the next week , month, or year most certainly is a consideration, but it is one you must make. It's just the PC can't tell you what that amount will be very effectively, while the TiVo can, taking away yet one more bit of work for the individual. If it were relevant, that is.

Absolute ******** and usually used as an argument by Tivo fanboys who think Tivo can do no wrong. (Watch if they put one in how excited those same people will be.)
If it means so much to you, why don't you install one of the 3rd party TiVo drive space indicators? They are free to download. While I have no idea who is or is not a "fanboy", and even less inclination to care, I assure you I would not be excited by the utility. Much like You Tube, Amazon Video on Demand, live TV buffers, and the guides, I would simply shrug my shoulders and never use it. I've done the same with the 3rd party space indicators. I tried them, verified they do work (or reported bugs back to the author) and deleted them.

All I know is that anything that needs a work-around like filling the disk with suggestions and is used by so many people as a workaround shows a serious flaw in reasoning and points out a missing feature.
It requires no such thing. "Free space" no matter how one measures it, is irrelevant on the Tivo, and seeking it out is a wasteful - if perhaps not fruitless - endeavor. All that is fundamentally relevant is the overall size of the drive expressed in days of recording - which has absolutely nothing to do with how much is in fact on the drive. If the size of the drive system is large enough to allow the user to check on aged recordings at least once prior to their being deleted, then nothing else needs to be known about the drive system, ever. If not, then one needs to expand the drive system. If a program is old enough to be in jeopardy of being deleted and the user wishes to watch it at some point, then the user needs to take steps to see to it the recording gets watched, irrespective of how "full" or "empty" the TiVo might be. As for my Tivos, I can tell you without looking they are very close to 100% full, and I can guarantee you perhaps as many as a dozen or more shows will be deleted tonight while I sleep, on top of the ones I delete myself.

nemein

11-04-2008, 10:58 PM

Just to add more fuel to the fire ;) I just accidentally discovered, and maybe other people already knew this, that if you hit the "info" button while on the "play, delete, keep until..." screen it'll pull up a more complete listing of the show including a "disk usage" field which lists size in G and %age. So the mechanism is already there, it's just a matter of tabulating in a single location

astrohip

11-04-2008, 11:24 PM

That's completely specious.<snip the other 98% of this post>
OF COURSE it's a completely specious (and ridiculous) argument. That was my point!

But don't worry, I still disagree with that other 98%. :D

And FWIW, my TiVo has 62% space left. 38% used in recordings (70 recordings), no suggestions (I don't use 'em), and 62% in the RD Folder. Pretty simple to understand.

I have about 50-60 recordings in the To-Do List over the next ten days. Acknowledging that the list can change, and that recording size varies tremendously, I still know that I have plenty of room, and don't need to worry. If 70 recordings take a third of the disk, 50-60 more shouldn't fill it up. So if I was to leave tomorrow for a week, I wouldn't worry, nor have to delete anything "just to be safe". (And yes, I'm aware I could have a 10 hour HD recording scheduled that blows this to hell, but let's not get pedantic.)

Without this info however, I would not be comfortable going a week or more without watching and/or clearing out some shows.

An FSI really can help with simple problems like this. :up:

BTW, my RD Folder has 101 entries. That also tells me I'm almost certainly ok for 7-10 days or more. I usually use the RD Folder as my quick litmus test. But for the purposes of this discussion, I fired up TiVoPlayList (which I rarely use).

Jonathan_S

11-06-2008, 11:00 AM

Many people say, "No, they shouldn't". Others agree with you. The point so many seem to miss is that either way, the metric does not provide one with an effortless means of managing the recordings on the TiVo. The program management metric is determined by how long at a minimum a program remains on the TiVo before being automatically deleted. That is determined by looking at the dates of the oldest programs on the TiVo, and has nothing to do with how "full" the Tivo is.
That only works if both the number of average hours a week the TiVo records and that you watch are pretty steady.

If I tried using your metric over the summer I'd have looked at my TiVo and see that the oldest group of expired shows were 1-2 years old. And I'd figure I had lots of time to watch those shows before they were at risk of being deleted.

As it turned out, during the olympics (which vastly accelerated my recording rate) the safe time before it started deleting shows was under 20 hours. (Admittedly an extreme case, but I did unexpectedly lose a few shows when something kept me from getting home before the evening coverage started)

JWThiers

11-06-2008, 11:10 PM

Cleaner007

11-08-2008, 07:25 AM

Hi! As for me the best app for disk space usage (http://www.fileutilityblog.com/archives/187) is Directory Size. I've been using it for 10 months and consider it to be great.

jeffrich

11-08-2008, 06:38 PM

jeffrich on 10/31:

oops, jeffrich on 11/01:

jeffrich again on 11/01:

and... jeffrich yet again on 11/01!

Hmm, guess you changed your mind and decided not to throw away that stick and keep beating that dead horse anyway?

FYI, a simple search will turn up literally DOZENS of these threads here over the last several years. You really ARE beating a dead horse. :rolleyes:

At least I was only beating it on this one thread dude, not being party to the "DOZENS" of previous discussions, as you were. Maybe it's time you stopped beating it too ;-)

JWThiers

11-08-2008, 08:02 PM

with only 14 posts how much could a horse be beaten

lrhorer

11-18-2008, 07:28 PM

OF COURSE it's a completely specious (and ridiculous) argument. That was my point!

But don't worry, I still disagree with that other 98%. :D

And FWIW, my TiVo has 62% space left. 38% used in recordings (70 recordings), no suggestions (I don't use 'em), and 62% in the RD Folder. Pretty simple to understand.
'Not simple at all. Indeed, I find it all but impossible to understand why anyone would willfully waste over half their DVR. At best it's like throwing away several hundred dollars. 'Fill up that hard drive, or you are wasting money and needlessly limiting your viewing palette to no advantage whatsoever. Any space not used by the DVR is programs you cannot watch.

I have about 50-60 recordings in the To-Do List over the next ten days. Acknowledging that the list can change, and that recording size varies tremendously, I still know that I have plenty of room, and don't need to worry.
The exact same thing is true if you have 1% "free space". Stop and think for a moment. Assuming you have had your Tivo for at leat several weeks, then you have surely recorded more material - via whatever means - than can fit on your hard drive at once. That being the case, it follows that much of the material has been deleted in the past. It makes no difference whatsoever if that material was deleted 10 days ago or will be deleted 10 seconds prior to the new material being recorded. It also makes no difference if the material was something you might have liked to watch if you had the time but did not or if it was never recorded in the first place. The difference is you - quite inexplicably - want to keep an eagle eye out on some indifferent metric rather than never having to worry, period.

Oh, and just FYI, I have typically 20 - 30 recordings a day in the To-Do lists. You sit down to a list of 70 programs from which to select. I sit down to a list of over 3000. Even excluding the video server, I still sit down to a list of over 400.

The same is true
If 70 recordings take a third of the disk, 50-60 more shouldn't fill it up. So if I was to leave tomorrow for a week, I wouldn't worry, nor have to delete anything "just to be safe".
You still fail completely to get the point. The issue is not space, it is time. It is not "how much?" it is "when?" Safety, in this sense, has nothing to do with how much space is "available". It has everything to do with "when was the program recorded?" Listen to your own argumernt. You are saying if you go out of town for a while, and your drive is "full", you have to delete something. You don't, not a bit, not at all, even if the drive has every last bit in use. You are obsessively deleting materials manually, when the Tivo will do it for you. All you need to worry about, without ever knowing anything at all about how much space is "free", is how old the existing recordings are and how many days of recordings the Tivo holds total. A free space monitor tells you neither, and you needn't know how much space is "available" in order to accurately assess the danger to any recordings. Metaphorically, you are trying to use a gas guage to tell you how much longer it will be to get to your destination. While it is possible to do so by knowing the size of the tank and the vehicle's mileage, it's much better and easier to use a watch.

Without this info however, I would not be comfortable going a week or more without watching and/or clearing out some shows.
As it happens, it's been almost 2 weeks since I had a chance to sit and watch anything. Without any other empirical information, I know two things:

1. The TiVos are 100% full, and have been for the entire 2 weeks.
2. I haven't missed a single show without being aware of it.

The reason is simple: All of my Tivos have more than 3 weeks of space on them, and nothing (other than KUID) I wanted to keep when I checked 2 weeks ago was more than 1 week old. How much space is taken by those programs I want to keep? I have no idea. How much space is left over after those programs are counted? I have no idea. How many programs are there on the Tivo I want to keep? I have no idea, since I haven't checked for two weeks. What percentage are Suggestions? I have no idea. How much space do I need to have free to make sure the programs I want are not deleted? I have no idea. Yet, I know with 100% certainty they will not be deleted, because they are all less than 4 weeks old, and all the TiVos can hold more than 4 weeks of material.

An FSI really can help with simple problems like this. :up:
Or one can eliminate the problem completely by realizing the FSI is a poor, manual method of managing the situation. The old oil company ad admonished automobile owners to "Think months, not just miles" when it comes to deciding when to do an oil change. A similar idea applies here: think days, not disk space. It will serve you much better and reduce the amount of work in managing your system. You've gone to the trouble and expense of hiring a little elf to manage your video library. Why not let him do his job?

BTW, my RD Folder has 101 entries. That also tells me I'm almost certainly ok for 7-10 days or more. I usually use the RD Folder as my quick litmus test. But for the purposes of this discussion, I fired up TiVoPlayList (which I rarely use).
And if you delete everything, you will have enough for x weeks... but why bother? The Tivo knows how to delete programs, and will delete the same ones you do, if you only make sure any older recordings are not ones you need to keep. Free space is irrelevant. It's AGE that's important, and much easier to manage than space.

lrhorer

11-18-2008, 07:32 PM

With all that tivo recording to watch, when do you find time to work?:D
One does not, of course, or at least I don't. It's not about trying to watch it all. It's about having a wide selection from whihc to choose at any given time. Even with thousands of programs available, it can be difficult to find something which pleases everyone. Maybe I just have a contrary family, though.

lrhorer

11-18-2008, 07:52 PM

That only works if both the number of average hours a week the TiVo records and that you watch are pretty steady.
One must, of course, allow for a fudge factor. That said, most people's viewing habits are fairly consistent. This is especially true when one increases the number of recordings done. There is a feedback effect, here. By filling up the drive, rather than obsessing over keeping some sort of free space buffer, the timeframe is extended, smoothing out the bumps, as it werre. In turn, the number of recordings one selects increases, which smooths out the bumps more and encourages even more recording...

If I tried using your metric over the summer I'd have looked at my TiVo and see that the oldest group of expired shows were 1-2 years old. And I'd figure I had lots of time to watch those shows before they were at risk of being deleted.
One must of course discount such recordings from the metric. I also have recordings that are over a year old (not much over that, because the Series III is only just a bit over 2 years old, and I've retitred my Series I), but I know the "active" sections of the Tivos are all more than 4 weeks in size. Even with sudden spikes in recording (series marathons and what have you), the deviation is still less than 1 week's worth of recordings. The metric still works, however, since the oldest non-kuid program tells one when the end of the buffer will be reached at current recording rates.

As it turned out, during the olympics (which vastly accelerated my recording rate) the safe time before it started deleting shows was under 20 hours. (Admittedly an extreme case, but I did unexpectedly lose a few shows when something kept me from getting home before the evening coverage started)
In such a case, however, the only option is to delete some other show, instead. Of course it's true one may have more or less preference in general for one show over another, and so such a distinction can be made, but it's still true shows had to be deleted, and the TiVo can do that for you, merely by re-setting the expiry date on more important programs when such an event is on the horizon. I hasten to point out an FSI would not have prevented you from being unable to get back home when you had expected, but managing the expiry date would have allowed you to manage your TiVo the most effectively, with or without the unexpected absence. Again, it's the date, not size, that most expediciously manages a DVR's storage.