Heroes "Angels and Monsters" 10/13/2008 [Text View]

dswallow

10-13-2008, 10:25 PM

This episode was all over the place. There is no way Ando is dead.

But we can hope, can't we? Now if only Ando can kill Hiro, too.

I kinda feel like the whole thing is just unraveling into too stupid a plot and they've tried to do crazy stuff like re-explain character motivations by covering up their being good guys acting like bad guys to fool good guys acting like bad guys acting like good guys who are setting up bad guys acting like good guys acting like good guys acting like bad guys.

I wish the networks would start only considering shows with a beginning and and end concisely identified and stuck to during the run of a series. They just seem to come up wiuth the most stupid and contrived ways to keep characters around or make the series last extra seasons, et. al. And it detracts from it, overall.

Turtleboy

10-13-2008, 10:34 PM

It has to do with US shows having to go on forever until they are cancelled for poor ratings, vs. British shows, that are often a planned series, with a beginning, middle, and end. They can tell the story and finish it.

ElJay

10-13-2008, 11:18 PM

This is the last episode for me. Too much random, meandering crap. I can't see the show ever redeeming itself, it's just wasting too much time. The show has given me no reason to keep watching.

FilmCritic3000

10-13-2008, 11:43 PM

I feel like a looky-loo at the scene of a car accident.

I want to look away but I can't. This is just getting so...weak, lame, I don't know pick one.

It's getting to the point where I think several of us here at TCF could develop more intriguing storylines than this.

terpfan1980

10-14-2008, 12:24 AM

How many different opportunities to say "+1" above?!

I'm really finding myself just not caring about this season. I loved the first season, well, until the ending got a bit disappointing, but I loved it as a whole. Season 2, not so much. Season 3 is just a total mess and I really just don't want to put the energy into watching much longer, if at all.

At this point it just seems like it would be easier to see epguides.com or some similar site to read the summary at the end of the season to see how it all fell out. I could save a lot of hours of TV watching and leave myself more time to watch football live instead :p :D

kjnorman

10-14-2008, 12:39 AM

Heroes was on? I't must have dropped off my radar. Perhaps I should check my DVR.....

I guess that says something for how much the show has fallen...:(

pjenkins

10-14-2008, 01:33 AM

loved the episode, so much going....

ok, it sucked. sorry :)

but i'll still watch on Mondays and hope.

Uncle Briggs

10-14-2008, 05:37 AM

I'm getting ready to bail on the show. I was just bored throughout.I watched about 15 minutes tonight and then deleted the SP that I had since the Pilot. I lost all interest in the characters and the confusion.

sonnik

10-14-2008, 06:27 AM

Legion

10-14-2008, 07:31 AM

What is deal with the Mohinder subplot? I liked that better when it was called "The Fly".

1. Works out of rundown lab/warehouse. Check.
2. Gets power. Check.
3. Uses power to get hot chick. Check. (Authors note: Geena Davis isnt hot)
4. Power begins to go wrong. Check.
5. Love of power begins to warp mind a tad. Check.
6. Do weird things with people/victims. Check.

Yeah thats the formula. Mohinderfly is coming for you!

I must admit I am getting thoroughly confused by this show. Parkmans dad out of nowhere.....Linderman is nowhere, yet everywhere. What is the formaula for?

And with the added bad guy (you know who) I think we are looking at a Xmen mutant war thing really coming to fruition. Another rip.

stevieleej

10-14-2008, 08:08 AM

I like Daphne.

terpfan1980

10-14-2008, 08:10 AM

I did want to say that the one thing I actually liked is who they have playing Petrelli, Sr. I've been a fan of that actor for several years, but at the same time I wish I had more reason for watching this jumbled mess...

MasterCephus

10-14-2008, 08:54 AM

so apparently there are two companies...the company and pinehurst?

I am starting to agree with most people...I just hope they have some way of pulling it all together...

The Mohinder thing is getting a little stupid. As a side note, I find it funny that last year the girl mexi-twin was a shy woman deeply worried about her power...now she is this latino lady who shows cleavage...drastic change.

We know that Linderman is from Parkman's dad. He is leading everyone to Papa Petrelli...but for what? A new company? That will be the point of the whole season.

We might find out from last night why Ando kills Hiro in the future (I would be a little ticked if my best friend tried to kill me)

They find yet again a way to keep Peter out of the way until the end...I like his character, but I honestly wish they would get rid of him if they aren't going to use him.

I think the writers have done a total 180 as far as characters...the more I think about it, the more they have changed everything this season (e.g. why in season 1 did the company kidnap Parkman and tatoo him, if his father worked for the company? Wouldn't they have known about his power without experimenting?)

I will keep watching because i have to know what happens, but the show has lost some credibility with me...

gossamer88

10-14-2008, 08:57 AM

I used to say after every episode..."I love this show!"...not anymore.

pcguru83

10-14-2008, 09:29 AM

Hero's progression to the point where he would actually kill Ando is completely unbelievable. They've tried to drop hints that Hero was becoming a "bad ass", but I'm not buying it.

I'm not to fond of the cliche, but killing Ando may have just been the infamous "jump the shark" moment for me. FilmCritic has got it right--it's like an accident I can't look away from. I'll probably still keep watching. :o

Rob Helmerichs

10-14-2008, 09:51 AM

RAKEN

10-14-2008, 09:54 AM

pcguru83

10-14-2008, 10:05 AM

Waa Waa this isn't season one. Waa Waa. That seems to be the consensus around here. What's missing? I know instead of save the cheerleader they should save the gymnast.

I liked the episode and the season so far.
That's where I believe you're wrong RAKEN--this is Season 1. We're not seeing anything new. It's the same general ideas that we saw in Season 1--it's getting tired. Let's progress the overall story arc a bit maybe. How many times do we get to see visions of the future and "save the world"?

pjenkins

10-14-2008, 10:16 AM

Waa Waa this isn't season one. Waa Waa. That seems to be the consensus around here. What's missing? I know instead of save the cheerleader they should save the gymnast.

i thought season one sucked at the end, a very large letdown and a harbinger of how they were going to treat the characters going forward. i think this season lacks pacing, character development/consistency, and a coherent story that i can buy into. i'll still be watching, i'm a glutton for punishment once i start watching a show, in the hopes it will turn around :)

classicX

10-14-2008, 10:23 AM

The Mohinder thing is getting a little stupid. As a side note, I find it funny that last year the girl mexi-twin was a shy woman deeply worried about her power...now she is this latino lady who shows cleavage...drastic change.

I just find it funny that her accent is all but completely gone.

BitbyBlit

10-14-2008, 10:29 AM

Well, it's pretty obvious to me that Hiro's up to something that involves Ando not being dead.

Yeah, it seemed clear to me too. If people are really misinterpreting the show this much, then I can see why they don't like it anymore. I wouldn't like it either if Hiro all of the sudden became bad for no reason. But I wasn't disappointed when I saw that scene because I figured there was more than met the eye.

unicorngoddess

10-14-2008, 10:47 AM

I still like it. Not too fond of where Mohinder is going in the storyline, but everything else I'm still enjoying. Actually, I was probably a little happy to see Mohinder trap Mya in that web.

But I kinda like seeing Claire make this transformation into some badass leather bondage chick she's gonna become in 4 years. I like Daphne. I REALLY like the guy with the vortex thing going and I wish he wouldn't have disappeared. That was a kickass power. It's interesting watching Sylar make his transformation too. Hiro and Ando may not be as fun as they were in season 1, but that's okay. I was thinking Hiro could've stopped time, put some kind of chest sheild on Ando and a fake blood pouch just for show. But I think since Daphne is immune to his power, she would have to be in on the whole thing too. And also, if Mr. Parkman is behind the whole Linderman thing...we still don't have a real explaination as to how Nathan is still alive...

jking

10-14-2008, 11:04 AM

Well, it's pretty obvious to me that Hiro's up to something that involves Ando not being dead.

I really don't get all the hate for this show, but whatever.

Totally agree. Much like that one season of Lost, it seems dissing Heroes has become something the cool kids are doing.

whitson77

10-14-2008, 11:05 AM

tiassa

10-14-2008, 11:33 AM

I'm not cancelling the SP just yet, but I'm now at the point where Tim Kring better have one heck of a "pay-off" for all the stuff he has made me wade through.

I mean the meta-plot for the entire season seems to be "Let's make everyone you though was 'good' into 'evil' and vice versa". Not terrifically original, and the plot and character twists to make it happen are bordering on the totally stupid.

And also, if Mr. Parkman is behind the whole Linderman thing...we still don't have a real explaination as to how Nathan is still alive...

Nathan was the only person who thinks he died, I'm willing to go with the theory that Parkman Sr, put that reality in his head. Perhaps he was clinically dead for a minute or two and the ER staff revived him.

That Don Guy

10-14-2008, 11:38 AM

I was thinking Hiro could've stopped time, put some kind of chest sheild on Ando and a fake blood pouch just for show. But I think since Daphne is immune to his power, she would have to be in on the whole thing too.
That's my "A" explanation for Hiro/Ando as well. (My "B" explanation involves Hiro going in back in time later in the story and pulling Ando back to what would be Hiro's "present".)

But since when is Daphne immume to Hiro's power when the Haitian isn't around? Hiro had no problem stopping Daphne when she stole the first half of the formula.

-- Don

unicorngoddess

10-14-2008, 11:44 AM

But since when is Daphne immume to Hiro's power when the Haitian isn't around? Hiro had no problem stopping Daphne when she stole the first half of the formula.

-- Don

She's super fast and she explained to Hiro that he wasn't techncially stopping time, just slowing it down. So when he "stops" time, she's still able to move around.

TAsunder

10-14-2008, 11:47 AM

I'm enjoying this season as a retcon / reboot. It seems to fix some of the problems with the characters. Sylar was boring before, he's interesting now. Peter, Mohinder, and Hiro are finally seen to be villains of stupidity this season as we have all known them to be for some time. HRG is back to being immoral at times instead of too good for his own good. Claire is finally acting instead of reacting (somewhat). The petrelli patriach is finally introduced, perhaps 2 seasons too late.

Some of the retcons are for the worse, obviously. But overall I like that they are seemingly trying to improve on the flaws of some of the characters.

allan

10-14-2008, 12:10 PM

I'm not worried about Hiro killing Ando, mainly because I don't think he did (though I don't know how Ando will survive). But this show does seem, well, unfocussed. I felt sorry for Vortex Man. What happened to him really, um, sucked (sorry ;) ).

dswallow

10-14-2008, 12:22 PM

I felt sorry for Vortex Man. What happened to him really, um, sucked (sorry ;) ).

They can bring him back anytime by simply having had the vortex suck him to someplace else on Earth.

waldingrl

10-14-2008, 12:25 PM

What happened to this show. It has just become such a mess. The storyline this season is idiotic. They tried to do a total reset on almost every character and expect us to buy this crap. This is almost to the point where it is beyond salvaging.

Yeah, but I think I'll try to stay with it in the hopes that at the end of the season I'll be like "F Yeah that was a hell of a ride".

Right now it exhausts me to jsut watch an episode. I go for liking it to not liking it to wondering why I'm watching it to trying to figure it out to wondering why I care...

TAsunder

10-14-2008, 12:40 PM

Has it been a couple of weeks now without parkman?

alpacaboy

10-14-2008, 01:53 PM

What happened to this show. It has just become such a mess. The storyline this season is idiotic. They tried to do a total reset on almost every character and expect us to buy this crap. This is almost to the point where it is beyond salvaging.

I agree. Like Claire is all mean and badass leathery now. I thought her destiny was cheerleading. Cheer, Claire, cheer!

dtle

10-14-2008, 01:59 PM

She's super fast and she explained to Hiro that he wasn't techncially stopping time, just slowing it down. So when he "stops" time, she's still able to move around.

But she sees him in the "time stop" because she was in fast mode after stealing the formula. She was in normal speed mode when Hiro stabbed Ando.

I guess the question for the season is it going to last half the year, or the whole year? If it's the whole year, you guys are getting impatient for plots to be developed.

DreadPirateRob

10-14-2008, 02:07 PM

bobcarn

10-14-2008, 02:57 PM

They seem to be under the belief that being shocked = entertainment. They're relying on plot twists from left field to keep us entertained, and it's not working. Yes, individual scenes were good. They were acted well and had decent special effects. There's definite entertainment in it. But overall? It's getting worse and worse.

In two episodes, they turned Sylar into a good guy and Mohinder into a monster. WTH?
Their main good guy, Peter, is now turning bad.
Nobody really dies. Or rather, even if the character dies, they still bring the actor back (Nikki, Linderman).

I can't believe Hiro killed Ando. It sure looked real, but it'll turn out to be a plan Hiro (and maybe Ando too) worked out beforehand.

There were a couple things I liked. Like when Nathan said "If God didn't give us these powers, then who did?", and Jessica simply said "A doctor over in ....".

The show can still be really good, all the writers have to do is just exercise a little self-control. They're just running wild right now.

naiLS1

10-14-2008, 03:23 PM

Maybe rather than thinking of the characters as turning from good to evil (Peter, Hiro, Claire), possibly we are supposed to see them as having to make difficult choices to accomplish their goals. Their choices are straddling the line between good and evil.

I don't see Peter as evil now, I see him as having to make a hard choice (taking Sylar's power) in order to understand how to save the world. And Hiro had to appear "badass" in order to infiltrate the group of evil people.

Sylar appeared to be conflicted earlier in the series after killing his mother. That's nothing new.

UTV2TiVo

10-14-2008, 03:26 PM

Nice to see "Bubbles" from The Wire get a new gig as Vortex Man. Too bad it didn't last...

Turtleboy

10-14-2008, 03:28 PM

Nice to see "Bubbles" from The Wire get a new gig as Vortex Man. Too bad it didn't last...

Not just Bubbles, but Marlo too!

Rob Helmerichs

10-14-2008, 04:04 PM

Sylar appeared to be conflicted earlier in the series after killing his mother. That's nothing new.
And we know for a fact (because we've seen the look on his face) that at least to some extent, he's faking the "good" Sylar. The question is, to what extent is it real? That is, how much good is there in him, and is there any real chance it can win (as the future scene seems to suggest)?

TAsunder

10-14-2008, 04:08 PM

And we know for a fact (because we've seen the look on his face) that at least to some extent, he's faking the "good" Sylar. The question is, to what extent is it real? That is, how much good is there in him, and is there any real chance it can win (as the future scene seems to suggest)?

As soon as he gets the power to see people's brains without killing them, then he can be a genuine good guy. Apparently time and space are within the realm of superpowers, but not basic medical technology.

ElJay

10-14-2008, 04:12 PM

Totally agree. Much like that one season of Lost, it seems dissing Heroes has become something the cool kids are doing.

Yeah, to be cool I come on here and talk about television shows! :D

ElJay

10-14-2008, 04:28 PM

My we are an impatient bunch. We're, what, 4 episodes in to the season?

I can't speak for anybody else, but my patience was consumed during season two. Then I gave the show the benefit of the doubt because of the strike. They've had four episodes now, including a double-sized one, to get this rolling. I feel the strongest part of this show was its characters. To that end they've smashed the existing ones to bits and introduced too many new ones that feel like throwaway "freaks of the week."

I feel kind of bad for the actors who are expected to read these horrible lines. That scene at the carousel with HRG, et al was painful.

allan

10-14-2008, 04:31 PM

As soon as he gets the power to see people's brains without killing them, then he can be a genuine good guy. Apparently time and space are within the realm of superpowers, but not basic medical technology.

Maybe Sylar's last victim will be someone with X-Ray vision. :D

scandia101

10-14-2008, 05:32 PM

Why didn't Sylar hear HRG telling vortex guy to kill him? He went through all the trouble of killing that mechanic to get the super hearing ability, you'd think he'd use it rather than just standing there looking confused and wondering about what's going on with HRG over by the carousel.

If they're going to give multiple characters multiple abilities, it would be kind of a good idea to not only write stories where those characters use their abilities when it makes sense, but more importantly, to not forget that those abilities exist.

unicorngoddess

10-14-2008, 05:36 PM

morac

10-14-2008, 05:38 PM

Why didn't Sylar hear HRG telling vortex guy to kill him? He went through all the trouble of killing that mechanic to get the super hearing ability, you'd think he'd use it rather than just standing there looking confused and wondering about what's going on with HRG over by the carousel.

I was thinking the same thing. I thought that maybe the writers forgot he had that power, but later he did mention that he knew HRG told vortex guy to kill him.

Now why Sylar didn't do anything except leisurely stroll over is another question unless he thought that he could be fast enough to stop vortex man. Either that or he had already figured out that vortex man wouldn't kill him.

Then again maybe the writers really did forget about that power. :)

morac

10-14-2008, 05:42 PM

The thing about that is, the only power we've seen Sylar use that he had before getting the virus is is telekensis. For whatever reason, I don't think he got to keep any of the other powers.

I still think he has his powers since he could still explode in the future so he still had that power. Also telekinesis wasn't his original power so keeping that one and losing the others doesn't make any sense.

He rarely uses any powers other than telekinesis anyway, even in the previous seasons.

Edit: Apparently he did lose most of his powers, at least according to this Q&A with the writers (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18281). It also explains a few other inconsistencies.

allan

10-14-2008, 05:48 PM

I still think he has his powers since he could still explode in the future so he still had that power. Also telekinesis wasn't his original power so keeping that one and losing the others doesn't make any sense.

He rarely uses any powers other than telekinesis anyway, even in the previous seasons.

For some reason, he seems to have a stronger link with his telekinesis than with any of his other powers. That's actually one of the most consistant things in this series. :p

My guess is, Sylar deduced that HRG was trying to get Vortex Man to kill him. Maybe he didn't figure it out until VM sucked himself into his vortex, which is why he didn't act sooner.

TAsunder

10-14-2008, 06:06 PM

Edit: Apparently he did lose most of his powers, at least according to this Q&A with the writers (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18281). It also explains a few other inconsistencies.

I really hope this interview is bogus because it makes the writers look rather stupid and indicates that they don't seem to have any problem with contradiction or completely unnecessary mindscrews of the audience.

LoadStar

10-14-2008, 06:20 PM

Well, it's pretty obvious to me that Hiro's up to something that involves Ando not being dead.

I really don't get all the hate for this show, but whatever.

+1

My we are an impatient bunch. We're, what, 4 episodes in to the season?

Agreed. If they would've just made the good guys bad and the bad guys good, it would be stupid, and that's what it appeared when they flashed forward 4 years into the future... but it's not nearly that simple. The "heroes" and "villains" of season 1 have turned into shades of grey, colored by events that have happened and will happen. They basically set this season up as an in media res style storyline - we saw how things originally turned out, and we can also see things that, despite (or perhaps because) of the characters best efforts, things are happening exactly the same way all over again.

Admittedly, the only plot development that seems to be troubling me is Gabriel's rapid desire for redemption. With as far as his character devolved, it's hard to believe how rapidly he seems to have wanted to turn around, unless there's something that Mrs. Petrelli did to him that made him suddenly change that we didn't see. I think that could use some clarification in a later episode. That's really a minor quibble for me, I'm willing to give that one a shrug and move on.

Heroes is a show that takes it's time to develop a season-long plot arc. I would've thought that after two seasons, people would've realized this, but it still seems there are people getting frustrated that the pieces don't all come together right away in the season. I guess after watching shows like Veronica Mars which did the same, I'm used to this sort of storytelling method, one that spreads the pieces out then slams them all together right at the end.

Rob Helmerichs

10-14-2008, 06:28 PM

Admittedly, the only plot development that seems to be troubling me is Gabriel's rapid desire for redemption. With as far as his character devolved, it's hard to believe how rapidly he seems to have wanted to turn around, unless there's something that Mrs. Petrelli did to him that made him suddenly change that we didn't see. I think that could use some clarification in a later episode.
But again, that's at least partly an act. We've seen him put on fake remorse at least once. I also suspect it's not entirely an act, but he's certainly nowhere near as far along the road to redemption as he would like us to believe. It will be interesting to see Sylar moving towards good against his own inclinations at the same time that Peter moves toward evil against his own inclinations. Perhaps Sylar seeing Peter going through that struggle and wanting to help him (now that they're brothers) is what will set him on the right path for real.
I really hope this interview is bogus because it makes the writers look rather stupid and indicates that they don't seem to have any problem with contradiction or completely unnecessary mindscrews of the audience.
Huh. I got the exact opposite impression--that they know what they're doing more than many have been giving them credit for.

atrac

10-14-2008, 07:33 PM

Huh. I got the exact opposite impression--that they know what they're doing more than many have been giving them credit for.

I didn't read/hear the interview, but I can only say time will tell if we're not giving them enough credit. If the show gets better, then I'll be the first to excuse these earlier episodes.

I'm not deleting my SP and I'll ride this puppy until the end because I like superhero stories. But I watch every episode now hoping that it will be good again, but that hope is really starting to wear thin...only because it's so not good now in my opinion. :(

I mean, did the writers think "well, the first batch of episodes are going to suck, but if the viewer hangs on, they'll eventually be pleased?" Or if they think it's all good and that we should be feeling "wow" after these episodes, then they really might be out of touch. If the latter is the case, I feel sorry for them -- because I'm sure their intentions are good. ;)

Until next week...

uncdrew

10-14-2008, 07:36 PM

I like Daphne.

The only thing keeping me going is the new characters.

I like the new powers and new characters. While it doesn't help the story or the show much, it's what I now watch for.

Loved Bubs as Mr. Vortex. :up:

Bye bye Bubs! *wave*

davezatz

10-14-2008, 07:36 PM

I'm getting ready to bail on the show.

I'm done. It's all over the place and not compelling. While I sorta appreciate The Wire reunion, not much else got my attention in a positive way. I gave up about the same point last season. Too bad they didn't stick with the original story line and kill Sylar and whomever else in Season 1. Would have been a nice self-contained mini-series. Fortunately, True Blood and Fringe still have my attention.

atrac

10-14-2008, 07:37 PM

Did anyone notice David Lawrence (http://www.thedavidlawrenceshow.com/) playing the puppeteer?

People familiar with CNET Radio or TechTV (he was frequently a guest) will know who that is. He used to have a fairly decent technology radio show; that lost any kind of appeal once he started selling his crap and talking about his "acting career" when he started taking acting lessons.

So, the show's low point for me so far has been seeing David Lawrence playing the puppeteer.

Well, I'll give him credit for landing a decent guest starring role on a so far top series. I've never heard of him before, but I'll say that it's nice to know you don't have to have anything remotely close to Brad Pitt or a Colin Farrel good looks to get a decent gig. :P

uncdrew

10-14-2008, 07:48 PM

I'm not worried about Hiro killing Ando, mainly because I don't think he did (though I don't know how Ando will survive).

I don't try all that hard to keep track of time-travel errors, but Hiro has seen Ando in the future, and did go back and forth through time to meet that waitress. I'm sure he has a plan to have Ando back in his life.

They can bring him back anytime by simply having had the vortex suck him to someplace else on Earth.

I kinda want to see Vortex World. Perhaps once there Bubs can find a way back.

Maybe Sylar's last victim will be someone with X-Ray vision. :D

:D Yeah, that power certainly exists in someone.

JimSpence

10-14-2008, 08:20 PM

There is too much going on each week. Yes, you could keep all of the subplots going , but spread them out a bit.

On that note. Where's Elle? I need my KB fix. :)

scandia101

10-14-2008, 09:04 PM

I was thinking the same thing. I thought that maybe the writers forgot he had that power, but later he did mention that he knew HRG told vortex guy to kill him.

Now why Sylar didn't do anything except leisurely stroll over is another question unless he thought that he could be fast enough to stop vortex man. Either that or he had already figured out that vortex man wouldn't kill him.

Then again maybe the writers really did forget about that power. :)

Ahh. If/When the show gets better again, I'll start paying more attention.

TonyD79

10-14-2008, 10:03 PM

Most of the comments are amazing to me. Again, we seem to be a nation of people who want answers right away. Like in Season 1, things that are not clear will eventually make some sense. I will wait patiently and enjoy the ride.

And, anyone who thinks Ando is dead is pretty damned stupid. If you can't work that simple one out, then the show is above your head. Didn't any of you see Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure? Why in God's name would Hiro have to do *anything* at the moment when he can go back in time an hour later and set up the whole situation with Ando? Fake his death after it happens? Gee, is time travel that difficult for folks to understand?

I like this season. I like that the motivations are all messed up. That makes these people people. What are they all trying to accomplish? I don't know yet. I am sure it will eventually make sense.

This show is a comic book. Comic books are full of revelations that seem late or last minute. Full of characters rewriting history and connections that were not there showing up at some point. They do the comic book aspect of this show very well.

There is a lot going on but at the same time there is not that much going on. They are keeping us off balance by not knowing who to root for. And doing it quite well.

As for "why didn't such and such do this at this time" discussions. Well, not everyone thinks of the right thing to do or say in every situation. Shows that are written that the character knows the optimum thing to do or say in every situation to me are phony (ever watch a soap opera.....hours and hours of no one ever saying "um" or stuttering over their lines or being confused for a moment...the fakest part about them). That makes the characters real to me. They DON'T know the optimum thing to do all the time. (And the Sylar not hearing part is bogus anyway because he clearly did hear what was going on. Maybe you want him to rear himself up like Magneto in full rage? How about he is simply more comfortable in his abilities than that?)

It is just a TV show. A complicated one but just a TV show. I watch it for a pleasurable 42 minutes. And I get that every week.

uncdrew

10-14-2008, 10:08 PM

As for "why didn't such and such do this at this time" discussions. Well, not everyone thinks of the right thing to do or say in every situation.

"Oh yeah, well the jerk store called and..."

smak

10-14-2008, 10:43 PM

I didn't like this episode that much either. The last one was better. And I think there are too many characters to have a clear story.

But I come in here and see so many wrong critiques about the show, people just not using their heads when they critique.

I can't believe hiro is a bad guy now, he killed Ando!!! Really? Does anybody believe that? The guy who can stop time, go see the long version of the lord of the rings trilogy, and come back without anybody knowing he was gone for 1 second, but there's no other explanation for what we saw?

Back in the first episode it was, I don't like it that they brought back two dead people, Niki & Mr Linderman... Really? That's the only explanation to of what happened?

Looking above, I see Tony is saying something similar.

-smak-

atrac

10-14-2008, 10:56 PM

And, anyone who thinks Ando is dead is pretty damned stupid. If you can't work that simple one out, then the show is above your head.

This definitely includes the "villains" then, as they suggested he kill Ando as proof that he join them, and then allowed him to do so after he "did."

The only justification for them not being completely pretty damned stupid will be if we get a later scene with them stating something like "see, we knew he couldn't really have done it."

JYoung

10-15-2008, 02:20 AM

I have plenty of patience to ride out a story but this is seemingly becoming increasingly scattershot.

If they manage to pull this together, I'll be impressed and say "Well done".
But after the disappointment of the Season 1 climax and the Season 2 meandering, I have my doubts.

xlin85

10-15-2008, 02:41 AM

i think ando and hero can be heroes member, you see they very very dumb.....! :down:

Just One WorD FoR HeRoes this Season .. like homer simpson Said "Booring" ,:up:,!

jradford

10-15-2008, 08:40 AM

Watched this last night. I thought it was a great episode. I'm very intrigued by the 2nd company and the pop. Hiro is annoying, but oh well. He's been that way for awhile. I thought it was a big step up from last weeks.

Alfer

10-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Finally ..my faith has been restored.

Things are making more sense and aren't going at a hectic/erratic pace like eps 1 and 2.

Enjoyed this one a lot more.

allan

10-15-2008, 10:28 AM

This definitely includes the "villains" then, as they suggested he kill Ando as proof that he join them, and then allowed him to do so after he "did."

The only justification for them not being completely pretty damned stupid will be if we get a later scene with them stating something like "see, we knew he couldn't really have done it."

Agreed, but why should the heros (especially the powerful ones like Peter & Hiro) have a monopoly on stupidity? :p

jradford

10-15-2008, 10:52 AM

Huh. I got the exact opposite impression--that they know what they're doing more than many have been giving them credit for.

There's also an interesting admission on a disagreement many were having after the 1st episode:

“In the first season, it was hinted that Claire would die if her brain or head was removed. In the second season, Adam confirmed that there was "no going back" from having your head blown off. Sylar, however, said that Claire could not die, no matter what he did. Does this contradict the first season's tagline ‘Save the Cheerleader, Save the World?’”

Nope. Claire indeed can be killed, as can Adam and Peter and Sylar, too. Decapitation does a pretty good job. We think Sylar was just f***ing with Claire.

stlarenas

10-15-2008, 11:09 AM

Heroes is a show that takes it's time to develop a season-long plot arc. I would've thought that after two seasons, people would've realized this, but it still seems there are people getting frustrated that the pieces don't all come together right away in the season. I guess after watching shows like Veronica Mars which did the same, I'm used to this sort of storytelling method, one that spreads the pieces out then slams them all together right at the end.

I watched Veronica Mars and LOVED it. But I am ready to give up on Heroes.

I think the difference here is that Veronica Mars always had a small self contained story in each episode. There were clues within it that helped develop both the charachters and the overall plot - but the story within the episode had a beginning middle and end. Not so with Heroes.

It is frustrating to watch episodes where we feel we have learned, or begun to really understand a specific character, only to a few episodes down the road have it be contradicted. This - added to the fact that the only thing we have to hang on to/figure out is the grand story arc - leads to a general feeling of "wow what a waste of time" - if not for this episode, but why did I bother/care about the episodes preceding this one - or for that fact the one after this one - because nothing sticks.

I don't know - maybe I am impatient. But I have stuck around for a lot of shows when all others have bailed - VM, Lost, Arrested Dev to name a few.

TAsunder

10-15-2008, 11:10 AM

Huh. I got the exact opposite impression--that they know what they're doing more than many have been giving them credit for.

I guess you fell for them avoiding answering the tough questions and glossing over some of the more obvious contradictions and stupidities. One example being the fact that Sylar still has telekinesis. Another being the adrenaline gland thing. And about half the questions were answered in a sarcastic manner in order, seemingly, to avoid having to answer questions about inconsistencies.

morac

10-15-2008, 11:21 AM

Admittedly, the only plot development that seems to be troubling me is Gabriel's rapid desire for redemption. With as far as his character devolved, it's hard to believe how rapidly he seems to have wanted to turn around, unless there's something that Mrs. Petrelli did to him that made him suddenly change that we didn't see. I think that could use some clarification in a later episode. That's really a minor quibble for me, I'm willing to give that one a shrug and move on.

Even in the first season Gabriel wanted approval and recognition from his Mom, whom he accidentally killed while trying to get it. He's now getting that from Mrs. Petrelli so that could have a part in it.

Also it's not like he just switched from major baddy to goody toe shoes. He's still not exactly a good guy any more than HRG is a good guy (both are in the gray area). He definitely has a long way to go to be like he was in the future.

Nope. Claire indeed can be killed, as can Adam and Peter and Sylar, too. Decapitation does a pretty good job. We think Sylar was just f***ing with Claire.

That still doesn't explain why Sylar left her alive. The only thing I can think of is that anyone would have died when their skull was removed. Sylar isn't really interested in killing people, he just wants to know how their powers work. Granted in the future world in Season 1 he said he wanted to "eliminate the competition" so he would be the only special person left, but as that future no longer exists maybe that isn't his motive anymore.

whitson77

10-15-2008, 11:23 AM

i thought season one sucked at the end, a very large letdown and a harbinger of how they were going to treat the characters going forward.

I think this is a good point. As much as I liked Season 1, I thought the end was a disappointing finale as well. I truly hoped Silar would be dead and a new arc would begin. But it seems like we got stuck seeing the same old thing in Season 2. And Season 3 is just a massive cluster F. I'm hoping the creators can get the show back on rails, but I'm doubtful.

astrohip

10-15-2008, 12:47 PM

... it seems dissing Heroes has become something the cool kids are doing.
Or maybe, we just don't like what we are watching?

My we are an impatient bunch. We're, what, 4 episodes in to the season?
It's not impatience, nor is it delayed gratification (as others have mentioned). I'm happy to watch a story develop over years & years (see...LOST), but the writers have to make the journey enjoyable. Serial drama is not only about the end, it's about the trip. And Heroes is just not fun any more. Why should I have to wait 4 eps, or 8 eps , or whatever? If the ride ain't enjoyable, not many of us will be around for the payoff.

It makes me wonder, what are the ratings like this year? And compared to S1 and S2?

Heroes is a show that takes it's time to develop a season-long plot arc. I would've thought that after two seasons, people would've realized this, but it still seems there are people getting frustrated that the pieces don't all come together right away in the season. I guess after watching shows like Veronica Mars which did the same, I'm used to this sort of storytelling method, one that spreads the pieces out then slams them all together right at the end.
And again, there's nothing wrong with that, and a lot to like if you are a fan of serial dramas. But as they spread the pieces, it is absolutely critical that the writers keep us enthralled with the plot. That's what makes a LOST or S1 of Heroes so much fun to watch. It's like reading a great book and you can't wait for the next chapter (or the next week). But if you don't enjoy reading a certain book, the odds are you will never find out how good the climax is, because you put it down well before that point.

Most of the comments are amazing to me. Again, we seem to be a nation of people who want answers right away. Like in Season 1, things that are not clear will eventually make some sense. I will wait patiently and enjoy the ride.
I have a feeling the number of people enjoying the ride has dropped precipitously.
~~~~~~~~~~
I think this show left the tracks when the re-wrote the original ending. Tim Kring had said, back in S1, that the original idea was to have most of the characters die, and with only a few carrying forward, develop entirely new characters with a new storyline for S2. But the success of S1 forced them to change that, and keep the Sylars & Nathans alive. Ever since then, it's gone straight downhill. And now we have these ridiculous plots with layers upon layers of competing "companies" and dead people and fathers from the grave and freak of the week and formulas... Remember when it was a spooky genetic thing? And now you just take a shot, or have a doc tweak your genes. :down: They lost their original vision, and it's obvious in the final product. I keep watching, hoping against hope for something--anything--to redeem this show, and pull me back in. But I am really really close to walking.

PS: One thing that really burns me, if this formula was so dangerous, why split it in two and hide it? Why not...DESTROY it? It's such a formulaic plot line it's a joke.

uncdrew

10-15-2008, 12:56 PM

I too was hoping Sylar would end up in Vortex World.

Tangent

10-15-2008, 01:10 PM

While not the best episodes they've shown, I still like the show. The main problem I have is Hiro's stubborn naivete. He's the Keystone Kop of the series...

I can buy Sylar's turn to "good" because of what was revealed about him in season 2 I think: He's a mama's boy to a psychotic degree. Everything he did was designed to make her proud of him. The fact that she was a basket case herself made this a virtually impossible goal. Now however he has a mom in Mrs. Petrelli that very clearly lays out what she expects of him, to be "good", and to help HRG. This is why he is earnestly trying to stifle his compulsion to figure out how others' powers work.

His lack of super hearing and the other powers he used to have are because of the virus. Having only his ability to figure out how powers work come back becauase it's his "natural" one would make sense. It just leaves a bit of confusion about why the telekenesis came back but not the rest. I remember hearing that it was the writer's strike that effectively saved Sylar from death in the shortened last season though so I'm guessing they're just going to ignore that little bit of discontinuity...

They can bring him back anytime by simply having had the vortex suck him to someplace else on Earth.

I'd like to see Parkman's walkabout or whatever eventually lead him to a giant pile of furniture and other random debris with the vortex guy sitting on top of it. :p

unicorngoddess

10-15-2008, 01:34 PM

That still doesn't explain why Sylar left her alive. The only thing I can think of is that anyone would have died when their skull was removed. Sylar isn't really interested in killing people, he just wants to know how their powers work. Granted in the future world in Season 1 he said he wanted to "eliminate the competition" so he would be the only special person left, but as that future no longer exists maybe that isn't his motive anymore.

Sylar was saved by Claire's blood. I don't know if they've just entirely dropped this whole virus storyline or what, but in Syalr's mind, Claire's blood is the only thing he knows that can cure him if he ever caught that virus again...or if anyone else caught that virus. I mean, if all the powers disappear because everyone catches that virus, he doesn't have anything left to feed on. But as long as Claire's blood can be the cure, he probably thinks he needs her to stay alive...FOREVER.

allan

10-15-2008, 01:38 PM

Sylar was saved by Claire's blood. I don't know if they've just entirely dropped this whole virus storyline or what, but in Syalr's mind, Claire's blood is the only thing he knows that can cure him if he ever caught that virus again...or if anyone else caught that virus. I mean, if all the powers disappear because everyone catches that virus, he doesn't have anything left to feed on. But as long as Claire's blood can be the cure, he probably thinks he needs her to stay alive...FOREVER.

Can Sylar (or Peter, Adam, or Claire) get the virus? I'd think that their healing would handle diseases.

unicorngoddess

10-15-2008, 01:46 PM

Can Sylar (or Peter, Adam, or Claire) get the virus? I'd think that their healing would handle diseases.

Well, I would think they could get the virus. The virus seems to directly attack the part of their system that controls their powers. So if that's taken out, they won't have the chance to try to heal it. I would think Peter and Sylar might have a greater chance of getting it...if there are no initial symptoms, by the time they realized they might have it, it could be too late to activate their healing powers. But since Claire's natural abillity is to heal, it MIGHT be possible for her to heal unknowningly before the virus affected her. Of course, in the end, it's all up to the writers.

BitbyBlit

10-15-2008, 02:37 PM

PS: One thing that really burns me, if this formula was so dangerous, why split it in two and hide it? Why not...DESTROY it? It's such a formulaic plot line it's a joke.

Just because something is dangerous does not mean it isn't useful. And there's also no guarantee that someone else wouldn't come up with a similar formula, so it might be good to preserve the knowledge in a safe place.

Nuclear weapons in the hands of certain people could be dangerous, and yet we keep a whole lot of them instead of destroying them all.

Cboath

10-15-2008, 03:20 PM

http://betweenthestaples.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/dark-claire-heroes-season-3.jpg

I'll keep watching for now. :D

Cboath

10-15-2008, 03:20 PM

I was thinking about this the other night, and I am sure it has been discussed already, but can someone point me to a discussion about what would happen if Peter got close to the Hatian?

unicorngoddess

10-15-2008, 03:23 PM

I was thinking about this the other night, and I am sure it has been discussed already, but can someone point me to a discussion about what would happen if Peter got close to the Hatian?

I don't think anything would happen. I think the Hatian's ability to block all powers trumps Peter. Since he would't be able to use his power to copy powers around the Hatian, he wouldn't be able to get the Hatian's power.

allan

10-15-2008, 03:39 PM

Rob Helmerichs

10-15-2008, 04:26 PM

I was thinking about this the other night, and I am sure it has been discussed already, but can someone point me to a discussion about what would happen if Peter got close to the Hatian?
Peter's power is to absorb powers. So maybe that's all he'd lose, not the powers he's already absorbed.

alpacaboy

10-15-2008, 05:15 PM

I don't think anything would happen. I think the Hatian's ability to block all powers trumps Peter. Since he would't be able to use his power to copy powers around the Hatian, he wouldn't be able to get the Hatian's power.

Or, has Peter already unknowingly aborbed the Hatian's power-blocking power? Now, if he put his mind to it, could he use his own power-blocking power on the Hatian blocking the Hatian from blocking him, letting Peter use any of his powers? Or would it depend on who thinks to activate the power-blocking power first? What if they both have it on and start from far away and then approach each other? Will we find out... on the next episode... of SOAP?

Malcontent

10-15-2008, 08:36 PM

The thing about that is, the only power we've seen Sylar use that he had before getting the virus is is telekensis. For whatever reason, I don't think he got to keep any of the other powers.

Sylar sliced Claires skull open to get her ability and also that escaped villian. So, he has at least the slicing ability. I can't remember if he still has super strength. Anyone remember Sylar flexing his super muscles this season?

In season one, when The Company captured Sylar, one of the doctors said they tested Sylar and could only find the genetic marker for telekinesis. They couldn't figure out how/why he had multiple powers or what they all were. They didn't figure out Sylar's original ability.

sushikitten

10-16-2008, 07:18 AM

We know that Linderman is from Parkman's dad. He is leading everyone to Papa Petrelli...but for what? A new company? That will be the point of the whole season.

Someone please refresh me--wasn't Parkman's dad stuck in Parkman's mind? Last season when he got Molly, and Parkman finally realized he was strong enough to get Molly out and keep his dad in? Is his dad that much stronger? Did he become strong enough to break out? Or did Parkman get weaker? Or is Parkman's dad doing all this from INSIDE Parkman's mind?

I'm not cancelling the SP just yet, but I'm now at the point where Tim Kring better have one heck of a "pay-off" for all the stuff he has made me wade through.

+1

Malcontent

10-16-2008, 09:00 AM

Someone please refresh me--wasn't Parkman's dad stuck in Parkman's mind? Last season when he got Molly, and Parkman finally realized he was strong enough to get Molly out and keep his dad in? Is his dad that much stronger? Did he become strong enough to break out? Or did Parkman get weaker? Or is Parkman's dad doing all this from INSIDE Parkman's mind?

+1

I believe that Parkman Jr. trapped his dad in his own mind. The dad was trapped inside his own mind. Dad must have figured out how to break out just as Parkman Jr. did when dad did the same thing to Jr.

mrmike

10-16-2008, 10:21 AM

Sylar sliced Claires skull open to get her ability and also that escaped villian. So, he has at least the slicing ability.

Technically, a knife works by pushing the sides of the cut apart along a very narrow edge doesn't it? There's no reason a telekinetic with enough control couldn't use his skill to slice skin & bone that way.

unicorngoddess

10-16-2008, 02:32 PM

Technically, a knife works by pushing the sides of the cut apart along a very narrow edge doesn't it? There's no reason a telekinetic with enough control couldn't use his skill to slice skin & bone that way.

Yeah, I always assumed the slicing was from his tk.

EvilMidniteBombr

10-17-2008, 01:19 AM

I really don't get all the hate for this show. I understand questioning some of the twists and writing but overall this season has kept me coming back. I am enjoying it.

I especially like how they wrapped up the Linderman loose end. Mr. Parkman (aka Big Bad) coming back and working for Pinehearst. (that number on the business card is a real number) It seems that they are interested in forming a group of bad asses. It may turn out to be quite an interesting twist.

I thought it was interesting to be introduced to Mr. Petrelli. I'm going to guess that he is the owner of Pinehearst and formed the company to get revenge on Primatech. BONUS: it appears that Momma Petrelli is paralyzed. I count that as a good thing.

I am sure that Ando is not dead but I still have no idea how he faked it.

I was thinking about this the other night, and I am sure it has been discussed already, but can someone point me to a discussion about what would happen if Peter got close to the Hatian?
He has already had contact with the Haitian. In season 2 the Haitian is the one that put Peter in the shipping container then proceeded to wipe his memory.

alpacaboy

10-17-2008, 03:02 AM

She's super fast and she explained to Hiro that he wasn't techncially stopping time, just slowing it down. So when he "stops" time, she's still able to move around.

Then how does he go back in time?

(I don't know why, but this has been bugging me for a couple days now.)

Sirius Black

10-17-2008, 05:57 AM

Then how does he go back in time?

(I don't know why, but this has been bugging me for a couple days now.)

She was wrong. Hiro does stop time. That's my only explanation. I'm not sure anyone could adequately explain how she was "immune" to the freeze time power. Least of all the writers.

unicorngoddess

10-17-2008, 10:49 AM

Then how does he go back in time?

He's a fictional character :p

Seriously though, thinking about it hurts my head too much. Hiro has control over time and space. Him traveling to the past (or future) is just an example of him moving himself through time and space to get to that point in the timeline.

Hunter Green

10-17-2008, 12:25 PM

There is too much going on each week. Yes, you could keep all of the subplots going , but spread them out a bit.
I'm sure not trying to be an apologist for the show -- I am miffed at the Mohinder storyline, some things about Nathan's storyline, how stupid Hiro keeps being, inconsistencies like Jessica, and the ongoing problem of having amped up some of the characters so much that they can't make a story work without crippling them.

But I am befuddled about one thing. So many of the critics of this season are saying what Jim says above. Am I the only one who remembers how every single episode of season one got heaped with praise because so much happened? As I recall, the comparison kept being to Lost: the story in Lost would trickle along at a snail's pace while Heroes would have more happen in one episode than a whole season of Lost. We kept being astonished by how things we thought might be the season finale happened a third of the way in, and amazed that there kept being mysteries without answers and kept getting answers too.

The one thing Season Three is doing right that Season Two did wrong is emulate that aspect of Season One. Lots of stuff happening all the time, not all of it yet answered, but enough being answered as we go that we have every reason to believe that the rest will be answered by the end of the season. And that's the one thing that seems to be being criticized the most.

That said, please, Mr. Kring, treat continuity as if it matters. It's not just geeky wiki maintainers complaining. The show needs it for its own sake.

Hunter Green

10-17-2008, 12:35 PM

Then how does he go back in time?
(I don't know why, but this has been bugging me for a couple days now.)
Not because I think there's a 'right' answer, or that the writers would take one if they found it, but just for the sheer intellectual joy of finding an answer that works, here's one.

Time always advances forward at a rate of one second per second. Hiro can't stop or change that. Most objects around him also advance along with it at one second per second. What Hiro can do is change his own rate of advance through time to any number he likes... including negative numbers.

So when he "stops time" to save a schoolgirl from a bus, he's just making himself move a million times faster through it than everything else, so he has plenty of time to do what needs doing. He can also "jump" to another time in the past or future by changing his speed in time, and in the case of the past, his direction in time, so that he skips over the ensuing time very quickly.

But he can't actually "stop" time because that would be the equivalent of him increasing his own speed to plus infinity and that is impossible. He can get to any number (or at least, to very big ones) but not infinity.

Problems with this theory:

1) For him to travel from the present to the 17th century this way, he would still experience the intervening passage of time from his own perspective. So this only works if he can choose to experience the altered flow of time (as he did when saving the schoolgirl) or not experience it. Which is just silly.

2) The whole moving through space thing remains a separate power, not explained by the time thing. Even setting aside the whole "the earth moves" issue, it remains the case that he didn't stop time in Japan and walk to New York City, then be amazed at his own arrival.

dswallow

10-17-2008, 12:35 PM

Lots of stuff happening; much of it contrary to everything that's happened with these characters in the past, and everything we've learned about them in the past. I think that's the biggest issue. The writers seem to have decided to just scramble everybody's motivations and intentions up for season 3 without much reason.

morac

10-17-2008, 01:09 PM

But he can't actually "stop" time because that would be the equivalent of him increasing his own speed to plus infinity and that is impossible. He can get to any number (or at least, to very big ones) but not infinity.

If you take your theory a step farther and say he has the ability to access dimensions greater than the one we live in. Our world is defined by 4 dimensions (3 for position and 1 for time), if Hiro can access and manipulate the 5th or higher dimensions that could explain some of the things he could do.

There are a number of inconsistencies with his power though since theoretically he shouldn't be able to converse with anyone if time was "stopped" since the sound waves would be stopped as well, but that' me just over-thinking things. :)

BriGuy20

10-17-2008, 03:09 PM

I am THIS CLOSE to deleting my season pass. Hiro killing Ando is total BS, I don't care how much of a badass he's trying to be.

Malcontent

10-17-2008, 03:29 PM

I felt it was implied that Hiro "folds space", allowing him to jump from place to place in the present. Also, "folds time" to jump back and forth through time.

I thought I remember in the first season when Hiro first jumps to the future and the future Parkman is hunting him, someone mentions that Hiro "folds space" to teleport. Then they realize that there are two Hiros' and figure out that he also "folds time"

bobcarn

10-17-2008, 03:35 PM

...
Also it's not like he just switched from major baddy to goody toe shoes. He's still not exactly a good guy any more than HRG is a good guy (both are in the gray area). He definitely has a long way to go to be like he was in the future.
...
"both are in the gray area"? Um... HELLO!!!!! Brain-dissecting serial killer here! Hunts people down with the intention to kill them? Enjoys it? No remorse? Sounds like a bad guy to me! Where is this "gray area" coming from?

allan

10-17-2008, 03:46 PM

I am THIS CLOSE to deleting my season pass. Hiro killing Ando is total BS, I don't care how much of a badass he's trying to be.

I'm reasonably sure Ando will survive. But I think I understand why Future Ando zaps Future Hiro. :)

Malcontent

10-17-2008, 03:50 PM

"both are in the gray area"? Um... HELLO!!!!! Brain-dissecting serial killer here! Hunts people down with the intention to kill them? Enjoys it? No remorse? Sounds like a bad guy to me! Where is this "gray area" coming from?

Hey, you can't blame Sylar for his anti-social behavior. You see, he has a disease/addiction which absolves him of all his responsibility for his actions. :D

morac

10-17-2008, 04:57 PM

"both are in the gray area"? Um... HELLO!!!!! Brain-dissecting serial killer here! Hunts people down with the intention to kill them? Enjoys it? No remorse? Sounds like a bad guy to me! Where is this "gray area" coming from?

His current actions put him in a "gray" area as he has stopped killing. I agree his past actions made him evil (or psychotic at best). I was trying to respond to people who said he is now suddenly "good", by saying that he isn't currently good, but "gray".

Oh and HRG has killed people too and has no qualms about killing Sylar or anyone else he deems a monster.

morac

10-17-2008, 05:01 PM

Hey, you can't blame Sylar for his anti-social behavior. You see, he has a disease/addiction which absolves him of all his responsibility for his actions. :D

You say this in jest, but if turns out the company made him into the monster he currently is (maybe via genetic manipulation like Nathan was) can you really blame him for how he turned out?

allan

10-17-2008, 05:29 PM

His current actions put him in a "gray" area as he has stopped killing. I agree his past actions made him evil (or psychotic at best). I was trying to respond to people who said he is now suddenly "good", by saying that he isn't currently good, but "gray".

Oh and HRG has killed people too and has no qualms about killing Sylar or anyone else he deems a monster.

I would still classify Sylar as evil. He killed the Loud Guy, and I suspect he would have killed Vortex Man if he'd had the chance. Future Sylar seemed to be good, but current Sylar has a long way to go to even be "gray".

And HRG is a bad guy who loves his family. :p

allan

10-17-2008, 05:31 PM

You say this in jest, but if turns out the company made him into the monster he currently is (maybe via genetic manipulation like Nathan was) can you really blame him for how he turned out?

But, Peter absorbed this "hunger" and he's not a villain.

Oops! ;)

TAsunder

10-17-2008, 05:41 PM

But, Peter absorbed this "hunger" and he's not a villain.

Oops! ;)

Even before this new sylar version of peter, he was consistently a villain of stupidity.

Malcontent

10-17-2008, 08:11 PM

It has been said several times before, they made Peter to powerful. Sylar also, but they may have gotten rid of most of his stolen abilities after they gave him that virus that neutralized his powers.

It reminds me of the Superman comic book character before the mid 80's. At the time Superman's strength/power was almost God like. He was moving whole planets and suns around the galaxy bare handed. It was getting hard for the comic book writes to come up with villains and crises that would be a credible challenge to Superman.

DC comics around the mid 1980's rewrote the Superman lexicon. I think it was the comic book writer/artist John Byrne that was one who did it. Making Superman less powerful by several orders of magnitude. Basically making him more mortal. This move breathed new life into the Superman comic books.

The writers of Heroes should consider doing this for Peter.