NetworkDVR service???? Any info?

[jmpivo]

Hi All,
I just read a blurb about a service called 'network DVR' where the signal provider (Comcast, other) saves recorded shows at their site, not on my local Tivo. At playback time, I point/click at the STB to start viewing the recorded show. That's about the extent of the article's content. Any info on this type of service anyone?
Thanks - jeff.

[dylanemcgregor]

I believe the cable company is Charter. They were taken to court over this a while back by the MPAA (I think), and a court just recently found in Charter's favor. No idea if this will be appealed or not.

From the cable provider the advantages are obvious in that they don't have to pay to deploy a high tech box to every house, but not sure I see the benefits to the consumer (unless Charter passes along the cost savings). I'd personally prefer to have control over the files, seems much more likely that I will be able to do what I want with them this way (move to my PC or portable device, etc...)

[ZeoTiVo]

I'd personally prefer to have control over the files, seems much more likely that I will be able to do what I want with them this way (move to my PC or portable device, etc...)

which is why we all have standalone TiVo DVRs :D


to be clear - you would not use a TiVo DVR to do this but would have a special STB from the cbale company that would have the network DVR feature show up and work like On Demand works. the court ruled that the difference that makes this legal is that the customr HAS to setup the recording schedule ahead of time and can not just pick from a list of shows that were already broadcast.

details would be good, but they can not exactly be offering the service until the legal crud is cleared away. the feature I owuld see as useful is if I set the recording adn then can see it from any STB in the house. I also wonder what they can do about the ads?

[classicsat]

It won't be a special box, just a normal modern 2-way capable box.

[NotVeryWitty]

I believe the cable company is Charter.

Actually it is Cablevision. According to this article, they're hoping to introduce it in early 2009: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080912-cablevisions-network-dvr-coming-in-early-2009.html .

[BrianAZ]

I really don't see why any Tivo/DVR owner would opt for this. The only thing that would make it half-way enticing for me is if it recorded every show 24x7 and stored it for a few weeks. Since that won't happen, I'll be sticking with my Tivo and Media Center.

[CuriousMark]

Basically it just lets the cable company offer a very basic "no frills" DVR service at even lower cost to themselves than they pay now to buy DVR boxes and lease them. TiVo will always be a high end option, even in areas that go with a network based Digital Video Recording service.

[NotVeryWitty]

I really don't see why any Tivo/DVR owner would opt for this. The only thing that would make it half-way enticing for me is if it recorded every show 24x7 and stored it for a few weeks. Since that won't happen, I'll be sticking with my Tivo and Media Center.
If Tivo recordings are marked with the copy protection flags, they can only be watched from the machine that recorded them. Network DVRs won't be saddled with this limitation, so you can watch a recorded show in any room that has a set-top box.

Unless / until Tivo implements streaming of shows between Tivo boxes (eliminating the copy protection issue), they will be at a disadvantage.

[Dan203]

TiVos have the ability to stream content now. It was added as part of the 9.4 update for YouTube playback. I believe that this is the first step toward TiVo to TiVo streaming. I'm also confident that we'll see a TiVo based implementation of the new Amazon streaming VOD site as well, which will allow you to watch shows you may have missed or forgot to setup to record.

Dan

[ZeoTiVo]

Network DVRs won't be saddled with this limitation, so you can watch a recorded show in any room that has a set-top box.

well by special box I mean with the featured enabled which I bet will have a fee with it, even at that we do not know it can be viewed at any cable box until the features are specced out for an actual deployment.

to me the big question is what about tru2way devices like a TV set or the in design tru2way TiVo.? could those be enabled to use the "network DVR on demand channel". That would be sweet!! A DVR within a DVR (or a TV with no box)

[classicsat]

In theory, yes, since the Network DVR will just be another another interactive service. It will provide a menu to select programs to record and play.

[jmpivo]

Seems to me that the Tru2Way spec in a Tivo implementation would be way cool as noted. But the networkDVR scheme doesn't thrill... not Tivo-licious, as my kid says.:cool:

[killzone]

I really don't see why any Tivo/DVR owner would opt for this. The only thing that would make it half-way enticing for me is if it recorded every show 24x7 and stored it for a few weeks. Since that won't happen, I'll be sticking with my Tivo and Media Center.

I spoke to someone at Cablevision today and they said they will be rolling this out within a few months. The advantage is that you can have a cheap box for every TV in the house and record pretty much every show without every having to worry about conflicts. You don't have to worry about hard drives going bad, backups or the heat generated by a DVR.

They didn't say how long you could save your shows and such but it would have to be at least 3 months for this to be a viable replacement.

If navigation and retrieval is fast and is as inexpensive as they are claiming it to be (I don't have numbers but he said it was cheap), I might have to take a look at this. I'm not a big Cabelvision fan but this kind of setup greatly simplifies my DVR deployment plan.

[killzone]

Basically it just lets the cable company offer a very basic "no frills" DVR service at even lower cost to themselves than they pay now to buy DVR boxes and lease them. TiVo will always be a high end option, even in areas that go with a network based Digital Video Recording service.

Of course we don't have all the specs, prices and limitations yet, but if this will do what I think it does, why would you view the Tivo as a high end option?

The way I see it, if you buy a Tivo (or any DVR that does it's own recording), you will have to worry about maintenance and upgrades yourself. I've had 2 drives die in my Tivos over the past 9 years(not bad - but eventually you will end up with a dead drive). For the switch to HD I obviously had to buy new DVRs. For more space I had to upgrade the drives.

To make their service even better, you wouldn't even have to record any show. You would just set up a profile of shows you like and have quick access to all of them.

Done right, I see this making DVRs obsolete.

[CuriousMark]

Of course we don't have all the specs, prices and limitations yet, but if this will do what I think it does, why would you view the Tivo as a high end option?
The TiVo is a high end solution because of the many features it offers that a network DVR cannot. Things like internet streaming and download as well as video podcast playback are one example. Another is the music and photos features. These are things that are simply not really a good fit for the network DVR model.

To make their service even better, you wouldn't even have to record any show. You would just set up a profile of shows you like and have quick access to all of them.
That is the one thing it won't do because that won't pass muster with the content providers. Only by making the network DVR completely mimic home DVR fair use patterns are they able to offer the service. So this is one feature that a TiVo pretty much has now that a network DVR will not have soon if ever.

Done right, I see this making DVRs obsolete.
Unless they find a way to offer the kind of high end features I suggested, networked DVRs will always leave room for a high end option. However, I will grant that other devices in concert with a network DVR might be able to do that.

[CuriousMark]

The way I see it, if you buy a Tivo (or any DVR that does it's own recording), you will have to worry about maintenance and upgrades yourself.

Yup, higher end options in general tend to require more maintenance. They tend to cost more up front and during their service life too. They still find a market, even if it is a smaller one. I see the TiVo as the top end solution for those willing to pay for it. The bottom end will be adequate for those who don't know or care about what they are missing. That is already the case for cable company DVRs. That is one more reason why I don't see the network DVR changing things all that much.

[killzone]

The TiVo is a high end solution because of the many features it offers that a network DVR cannot. Things like internet streaming and download as well as video podcast playback are one example. Another is the music and photos features. These are things that are simply not really a good fit for the network DVR model.


Fair enough I can agree that there will be people looking for those features.

Personally I don't use my DVR for any of those features. I have a separate media server (2008 server running tversity) networked A/V receiver and PS3 for that. These units might be networkable so they may allow you to connect to internet radio, stream media, pictures and connect to a local media server.

Overall it's a much lower risk, lower maintenance solution for those that don't know what a hard drive looks like, let alone the skills to backup and restore a drive. Don't forget these drives are reading and writing data 24/7 so it's not a matter of if it's going to go, it's a matter of when.

Perhaps if you could record 6 (I have conflicts on mondays where 5 isn't enough) shows at once on a centralized Tivo Server with a 2T mirrored drive array and you could get small Tivo client boxes for each TV I might favor it..... but I still don't want to have to worry about hard drives and losing recordings if there is a better alternative.

[classicsat]

To make their service even better, you wouldn't even have to record any show. You would just set up a profile of shows you like and have quick access to all of them.


As said, they most likely are specifically prohibited from doing this.

What could be done, is the user can access a menu of possible recordings, based on their previous recording habits and/or pre-programmed preferences, and select which ones to record. That is how I use Wishlists on my TiVo.

[ZeoTiVo]

Personally I don't use my DVR for any of those features. I have a separate media server (2008 server running tversity) networked A/V receiver and PS3 for that. These units might be networkable so they may allow you to connect to internet radio, stream media, pictures and connect to a local media server.

so you worry about the skills to change out a hard drive but rattle off the skills to have all that work together as if it was nothing? Sorry but you are being fairly disingenuous in doing that.

The Network DVR does simplify things for people who want a basic record/store/watch DVR and indeed that kind of networked paradigm may well take over even on a TiVo. In fact I think that is a large part of the push behind the other features TiVo develops. The basic record/store/watch is just a commodity at the end of the day.

For me a big feature is being able to take the recorded media and watch it where and when I want. I assume the network DVR crosses the first hurdle of being able to watch a recorded show on any TV with the right setup in the house. Now what about on my portable media device? What about while on vacation?

A feature I think would make this phenomenal is if you could access it from "other" STBs by inputting your code to access your shows. So you go on vacation and that is on the same cable Company setup - no problem - hit your codes and viola- your now playing menu. of course this is pie in the sky for a cable company.

Instead I still prefer my PC and networked Tivo DVRs on my 3 TVs in the house that let me watch shows when and where I want. Add in that TiVo brings other features like Rhapsody right on the TV in a simple to use format with just the simple peanut remote and my whole family can use it without hassling me for tech support (except for the network ;)) and I see a network DVR as a good idea but not right for me, unless it is as a DVR within my TiVo tru2way DVR so I can feel i have backup and easy conflict resolution.

[mattack]

Yup, higher end options in general tend to require more maintenance. They tend to cost more up front and during their service life too.

*Tend* to, but with lifetime service, a Tivo can cost *less* than a cable DVR (and work better, in most people's opinions).

[CuriousMark]

*Tend* to, but with lifetime service, a Tivo can cost *less* than a cable DVR (and work better, in most people's opinions).

+1 indeed that is very true.

[killzone]

so you worry about the skills to change out a hard drive but rattle off the skills to have all that work together as if it was nothing? Sorry but you are being fairly disingenuous in doing that.


You took my statement a little out of context. On the line before my comment I agreed that some people would like those options in a single unit. I was just stating what my setup was to illustrate why I didn't think of the Tivo as a higher end solution. In terms of simplicity, it really isn't that hard to set up tversity on XP or Vista. I think it's safe to assume that anyone with a Tivo that is interested in streaming audio and digital pictures, has a PC. You would of course have to worry about your PC hard drive, but it's a lot easier to back that up than 200Gb - 1Tb of video.

It's not so much the skills needed to replace the drive, but the aggravation of lost recordings.

Don't get me wrong, I do see the advantages of having your own recordings stored localy (control of data, you can still watch if someone hits a pole ...). There might even be a middle of the road solution. A unit that has a small drive that allows you to stream audio, pictures and even download some show you recorded and want to transfer to your ipod. This way you still don't have to worry about hard drive space and losing shows. Costs would still be fairly low since it doesn't need a tuners or 1Tb drive. You could get one of these units for your den and the cheaper no HD units for the bedrooms.

[CuriousMark]

Personally I don't use my DVR for any of those features. I have a separate media server (2008 server running tversity) networked A/V receiver and PS3 for that. These units might be networkable so they may allow you to connect to internet radio, stream media, pictures and connect to a local media server.
If that works for you, cool.

Perhaps if you could record 6 (I have conflicts on Mondays where 5 isn't enough) shows at once on a centralized Tivo Server with a 2T mirrored drive array and you could get small Tivo client boxes for each TV I might favor it..... but I still don't want to have to worry about hard drives and losing recordings if there is a better alternative.

That six tuner box with 2T of hard drives is a point solution and I suspect it would be an expensive one, so I don't like it either. I agree the client boxes could be pretty cheap, though. I think current TiVos can provide that functionality in a scalable fashion without the need for a centralized tuner box. You can grow to six tuners incrementally by adding current TiVo DVRs until you have three of them. MRV means you can watch at any of the three locations as you see fit. If you have a PC or two with media center on them, they can function as extra storage and additional viewing stations, and music and photo servers. If there is a PC in a bedroom already, it can source a TV using media center for very little delta cost, possibly even less than buying a central DVR based remote client box.

That flexibility in the current crop of TiVo DVRs is probably something else I could have added to my list of reasons to consider it a higher end solution.

This is definitely an interesting and fun discussion.

[ZeoTiVo]

You took my statement a little out of context. On the line before my comment I agreed that some people would like those options in a single unit. I was just stating what my setup was to illustrate why I didn't think of the Tivo as a higher end solution. In terms of simplicity, it really isn't that hard to set up tversity on XP or Vista. I think it's safe to assume that anyone with a Tivo that is interested in streaming audio and digital pictures, has a PC.
right, but you implied that a Tivo with a hard drive is a hard thing to deal with or upgrade, while implying that setting up the other things are not as complex. I think they both fall into the same category of complexity - which is to say any average user with ability to understand directions and execute them and no apprehension of screwing things up beyond hope - can do either. :)
I see both solutions as equal and higher end than what the average DVR user has.

Where TiVo has some marks in the plus column is that by installing one piece of software on a PC - you can do all the functions noted via the one peanut remote on the TV screen
and open up Tivo Desktop on the PC and store shows on the PC and push/pull them back as needed.

You can in theory not even bother to updgrade the TiVo Hard drive and just use a PC hard drive for storing shows. I upgrade my drive as the easiest way to store shows though.

TiVo gives a very compelling media center setup that allowed me to set it up with little time on my part and easy use by my family. That media center approach is what a network DVR is not striving for and thus a downfall of that approach for people who want higher functionality than just record/store/watch.

Again nothing wrong with your approach either - I just wanted simple yet robust home media setup and leave the complex or multi system stuff to my day job with designing Loan Systems.

[wolverines]

I'm a cablevision subscriber and also have an S3 and 2 S2's (one not active). I'll be taking a look at this once they offer it later this year or early next. To me, there are 3 very big advantages the network DVR has over my current tivo setup.

1-I can more easily schedule more than 2 tuners at once. I have 3 right now between my 2 tivos, but I have to run upstairs and down to adjust schedules when I have conflicts. The network DVR won't be limited in the number of tuners so as a previous poster said, I could record 5 or 6 shows at once if I wanted to.

2-I can pause watching a show then pick up watching elsewhere. It acts as a true multi-room DVR. No transferring, waiting for the buffer, etc. Tivo could take care of this by allowing streaming. I'm sure we'll see that sometime in 2011.

3-My basic digital cable box can handle this so I can get all the digital channels along with the DVR features on every TV in the house. A lot more affordable than putting a tivo at all my tvs.