The Free Space Indicator Thread

[Samsara]

Below are some of the previous threads on this subject, but if you have something to add, please use this thread.

Exactly how is a "Free Space Indicator" confusing? (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13918)
Free space remaining indicator (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13084)
Why don't they include a free space function? (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14171)
Free Space Indicator Proposal (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13941)

[rbird]

Nearly 91% would use it, if available? That's MUCH higher than even my optimistic brain could imagine! :D

Is Tivo listening???

Bob

[HTH]

So much depends on its implementation so as not to cause an increase in the number of help desk calls that the poll isn't all that useful.

[SteakMan]

Originally posted by HTH
So much depends on its implementation so as not to cause an increase in the number of help desk calls that the poll isn't all that useful.
Agreed. I would like to see a simple percentage status bar. Or maybe even a pie chart. Do NOT show minutes of any sort, only MB or percent MB.

[HTH]

Originally posted by SteakMan
Agreed. I would like to see a simple percentage status bar. Or maybe even a pie chart. Do NOT show minutes of any sort, only MB or percent MB.

Please excuse me while I remove these keycaps from my forehead.

[SteakMan]

Originally posted by HTH


Please excuse me while I remove these keycaps from my forehead.

Just messin with ya HTH :)

Sorry, that's the closest that I'll come to trolling :)

[beejay]

Show something. Show anything. Start with something as simple as your like, TiVo, but start with something.

I'm afraid someone at TiVo reads some of the involved suggestions and thinks "who but a computer programmer is going to understand that."

So, TiVo, don't give us the ultimate, but give us something.

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by beejay
Show something. Show anything. Start with something as simple as your like, TiVo, but start with something.

I'm afraid someone at TiVo reads some of the involved suggestions and thinks "who but a computer programmer is going to understand that."

So, TiVo, don't give us the ultimate, but give us something. Good news! They did! Turn on suggestions, and after a few days the suggestions will consume most of the free space.

[dnyberg]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dnyberg
As part of such a software upgrade, please do away with the current scheduling algorithm's behavior of refusing to record something (or to change its delete time) because "there's not enough space". Rather, it should say something along the lines of "at this time I project there will not be enough space" for a given recording. After all, the unit can't know that in 3 hours I'll delete 10 hours of programming, so it has no business issuing a flat refusal to record something 24 hours from now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure it can, as long as you tell it you will by adjusting the expiry of that 10 hours worth of shows and not set everything S/KUID.

If your numbers are realistic and you're really going to delete 10 hours worth of programming in the next three, just do it and then schedule your shows.

============================================

No.

I just saw a promo for some show that's interesting, and I want to tell Tivo to grab it. It refuses, saying that based on automatic operations only, there won't be space. Too bad. I'm part of the equation here too; my desires are what count. The *only* thing that counts, in fact. I bought the machine, I pay the sub, what I desire is what it should do.

If I tell it to schedule something for recording, it should have one and only one response: Yes Master! (It can point out that by that time there *may* not be space, but that's just an advisory.)

Suppose it's a show 3 days out, and I'll be saving to tape tomorrow. Am I supposed to delete the things I would save, just to satisfy the machine?

Am I supposed to scribble post-it notes for later, after I've done the save-to-tape operations?

No. Neither of those. If, 3 days from now, there's insufficient room, then nobody can blame the machine for not making the recording. But there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it to refuse to accept instructions regarding its list of operations to *try* to perform. Not one. *No* reason, period.

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by dnyberg
I just saw a promo for some show that's interesting, and I want to tell Tivo to grab it. It refuses, saying that based on automatic operations only, there won't be space. Too bad. I'm part of the equation here too; my desires are what count. The *only* thing that counts, in fact. I bought the machine, I pay the sub, what I desire is what it should do.

If I tell it to schedule something for recording, it should have one and only one response: Yes Master! (It can point out that by that time there *may* not be space, but that's just an advisory.)

Suppose it's a show 3 days out, and I'll be saving to tape tomorrow. Am I supposed to delete the things I would save, just to satisfy the machine?

Am I supposed to scribble post-it notes for later, after I've done the save-to-tape operations?

No. Neither of those. If, 3 days from now, there's insufficient room, then nobody can blame the machine for not making the recording. But there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it to refuse to accept instructions regarding its list of operations to *try* to perform. Not one. *No* reason, period. If you didn't have so much marked as "Keep Until I Delete" your Tivo would simply warn you that one or more shows will have to be deleted earlier than planned, then allow you to schedule your new show, and assuming you deleted enough stuff between now and the time the new show aired, nothing would have to be deleted.

[martinp13]

Originally posted by dnyberg
If, 3 days from now, there's insufficient room, then nobody can blame the machine for not making the recording. But there is absolutely no legitimate reason for it to refuse to accept instructions regarding its list of operations to *try* to perform. Not one. *No* reason, period.

But you WILL blame the machine for not making the recording. It said it would, but it didn't.

You expect to tell a TiVo "Record everything on channel 4 forever, and I mean Everything and Forever." and not have it complain?

Didn't you watch 2001:ASO to see what happens when you give conflicting instructions? Next thing you know your pod bay doors won't work, and THEN where will you be? :)

[HTH]

Originally posted by dnyberg
Suppose it's a show 3 days out, and I'll be saving to tape tomorrow. Am I supposed to delete the things I would save, just to satisfy the machine?

No, you'll just change the shows you'll be saving to tape tomorrow from SUID to be kept for only 1 or 2 days. In that way you are telling the TiVo that they will be gone by the time the show 3 days out would be scheduled to record. And then your TiVo will allow it to be scheduled.

Why mark something SUID when you're going to delete it tomorrow? Where's the logic in that? How can you expect TiVo to know you're going to delete them tomorrow unless you tell it so?

Here's a reasonable suggestion: when there gets to be so many SUID recordings that some shows aren't being scheduled and listed in the Recording History with the reason of to insufficient space available, the TiVo should give you a PTCM saying that you are acquiring too many SUID programs and that scheduling functionality will be impaired unless you change some to have finite expiry times. That will make it clear it's the user's own damn fault for abusing S/KUID and get him to stop recording everything that way.

[dnyberg]

I set things suid for a reason (actually a couple of reasons):

1) a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush. I don't want it deleting something it has, for something that may not ever arrive (rain fade, power outage, etc).

2) I may not get around to save to tape as I intend, or I may forget, or whatever. If I start setting things "2 days", I may lose them. That's the whole idea. So I set things I'm willing to lose to "save 2 days or delete when space is needed", and I set things I don't want to lose as "keep until I delete".

If that means it *may* not be sure about whther it will have space for something in the future, I'm perfectly happy for it to say "I may not have space starting 12 hours from now" in an advisory (or when I'm giving it instructions). I don't want to have to change the storage of a bunch of sored programs in order to get it to accept instructions, then have to go back and change them back. (If it'll let me change them back, anyway.) It should follow my instructions as best it's able, not tell me it refuses this or that because it thinks I'm too stupid to realize HD is a finite resource. And FWIW, a forward-projecting gas gauge, as I suggested above, would help this situation whether they fix the refusenik behavior or not.

The bottom line is that it's my servant, not the other way around, and the software should reflect that.

[HTH]

Originally posted by dnyberg
It should follow my instructions as best it's able,

It is.

The bottom line is that it's my servant, not the other way around, and the software should reflect that.

If you use it in a compulsively paranoid manner, it will be compulsively paranoid back at you. Only one of you is able to back down.

You need to relax and either record less or watch-and-delete more TV. This weekend, watch and delete programs all day long. If you only watch stuff with commercials and skip over them you should be able to clear off 40 hours of SUID programming over two days. Then swear off scheduling any Season Pass or Wishlist as KUID and use SUID rarely. Then you should be able to use your TiVo in a more relaxed manner. If you only push expiry ahead little by little, you won't have problems scheduling programs later.

Meanwhile, consider that it's possible that your problem isn't that TiVo isn't letting you record more; it's that you are already recording more than you can watch. It sounds like a classic case of overrun (http://www.jargon.org/html/entry/overrun.html) avec TV.

[SteakMan]

Originally posted by HTH
Meanwhile, consider that it's possible that your problem isn't that TiVo isn't letting you record more; it's that you are already recording more than you can watch. It sounds like a classic case of overrun (http://www.jargon.org/html/entry/overrun.html) avec TV. Naw, I think the problem everyone (who is complaining about it) has, is that they are still in VCR thinking mode, while the TiVo is trying to do so much more.

The manual should have printed in giant letters: "Scheduling recordings as SUID will reduce your available space by the amount of the recording AND reduce your space available for scheduling future recordings."

And maybe: "While it can, the TiVo was not designed to save recordings indefinitely."

I still wish that it would allow over-scheduling, but now that I see how SUID really works, I think that would take a major overhaul of the logic everywhere else as well. I'll put up with it as it is thank you.

-SteakMan-
Edit: I forgot about Bret's explanation. I bet that could be implemented without much of an overhaul :)

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by dnyberg
I set things suid for a reason (actually a couple of reasons):

1) a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush. I don't want it deleting something it has, for something that may not ever arrive (rain fade, power outage, etc).

2) I may not get around to save to tape as I intend, or I may forget, or whatever. If I start setting things "2 days", I may lose them. That's the whole idea. So I set things I'm willing to lose to "save 2 days or delete when space is needed", and I set things I don't want to lose as "keep until I delete".

dnyberg,

You're obviously free to use your Tivo as you see fit. But I doubt you'll ever get an update that lets you force Tivo to schedule a show when it calculates that there won't be room for it. Because, like HTH said, people would immediately start complaining when their shows that they schedule don't record.

Maybe you agree with my suggestion... that is to have the Tivo tell you that new recording won't fit, but add it to the Recording History, and automatically add it to the To Do List if you free enough space in time. That way, the fundamental meaning of the To Do List will remain the same (these things WILL record barring power failure, guide changes, user modifications, etc.), and people who mark too much stuff as SUID will be able to overschedule to at will! :) As long as the warning is clear that the overscheduled recording is not guaranteed to record.


If that means it *may* not be sure about whther it will have space for something in the future, I'm perfectly happy for it to say "I may not have space starting 12 hours from now" in an advisory (or when I'm giving it instructions). I don't want to have to change the storage of a bunch of sored programs in order to get it to accept instructions, then have to go back and change them back. (If it'll let me change them back, anyway.) It should follow my instructions as best it's able, not tell me it refuses this or that because it thinks I'm too stupid to realize HD is a finite resource. And FWIW, a forward-projecting gas gauge, as I suggested above, would help this situation whether they fix the refusenik behavior or not.

The bottom line is that it's my servant, not the other way around, and the software should reflect that.

[ja-kid]

I would also love to see some kind of "free space indicator" also.

[Blahman]

I could get by without a free space indicator if I could just get some simple info without having to manually add it all up.

On the Sytem Info screen it would be nice if it listed:
1). Number of hours worth of material currently in Now Playing - Tivo Suggested Recordings
2). Number of hours worth of material currently in To Do List - Tivo Suggestions

On my ~259 hour unit this would be a great help.

Of course soon I'll also want batch save to VCR and/or editting.. :)

Yes, I know I can do the math for both 1 and 2, but why should I when the DTivo already knows the answer. Plus think about it. ~259 hours is ~518 half hour episodes of various TV shows, or ~129 two hour movies. Really sucks trying to keep a count on that when the hardware already does so.

[SuperRob]

All I want is an indicator like this ...

Your TiVo currently has XX hours of free space left at the default recording level. (This does not include any programs scheduled for future recording.)

I can't beleive this is too much to ask. The key here is currently. All we really want to know is based on what is recorded NOW, how much space is left. Nothing else really matters in the grand scheme, since suggestions get deleted to make space, programs will get bumped to make room, and S/KUID fux0rs the entire thing. :)

Yes, it's 100% a touchy-feeling thing. The number is fairly meaningless. That doesn't make me WANT it any less. ;)

[HTH]

Originally posted by SuperRob
The key here is currently.
s/key/problem/

The number is functionally meaningless, but that won't prevent people from assigning a meaning to it.

Imagine all the tech support calls coming in from people who want to know why they can't schedule their 23rd future movie recording when their TiVo is only 48% full now. It will be more than those that call now not knowing why it won't record more, because they'll feel they have hard evidence on their side that TiVo is wrong and they should be able to schedule it.

[JPriller]

Originally posted by HTH
Imagine all the tech support calls coming in from people who want to know why they can't schedule their 23rd future movie recording when their TiVo is only 48% full now. It will be more than those that call now not knowing why it won't record more, because they'll feel they have hard evidence on their side that TiVo is wrong and they should be able to schedule it. I've never done user support for average-and-below users (just engineers and technicians, lucky me), but I can't imagine that this would automatically lead to a huge increase in stupid-user calls. Yes, I know there are plenty of incredible idiots out there. Has it been documented that TiVo gets lots of calls now from people who don't realize why future recordings won't fit? Is there reason to believe some large disclaimer like 'number given is for the CURRENT TIME ONLY and DOES NOT reflect any space to be used by future recordings" wouldn't be at least somewhat effective?

This is a feature that a lot of people have asked for and genuinely feel would be useful to them (despite the vehement denials from others that anyone actually needs it), and wouldn't be at all hard to implement. Does TiVo stop adding useful features for fear of morons?

[HTH]

Originally posted by JPriller
Has it been documented that TiVo gets lots of calls now from people who don't realize why future recordings won't fit?

Well, if you think the number of people who know enough about how to use computers enough to post messages to this forum asking why on the forums as a gauge of the more intelligent users....

This is a feature that a lot of people have asked for and genuinely feel would be useful to them (despite the vehement denials from others that anyone actually needs it), and wouldn't be at all hard to implement. Does TiVo stop adding useful features for fear of morons?

I put it that it isn't useful, and can be harmful by its nature to be misleading.

If you just want to have a warning when your TiVo drops below so many hours of space free, set up a recording at the desired quality and duration, let it expire, but don't delete it. If it ever disappears from Now Playing, that's your early warning system. DirecTiVo owners, pick something to record with average or maximum visual activity for bitrate estimation. (This is most effective if you don't let anything else expire.)

In the meantime, the expiry system is a sufficient indicator of capacity usage.

[JPriller]

Originally posted by HTH
I put it that it isn't useful, and can be harmful by its nature to be misleading.93% of the folks who answered the poll here DID think it'd be useful at least some of the time, even if they weren't all willing to pay for it. I'll admit the forum here is way short of a good random sample of TiVo owners, but are they ALL mistaken?If you just want to have a warning when your TiVo drops below so many hours of space free, set up a recording at the desired quality and duration, let it expire, but don't delete it. If it ever disappears from Now Playing, that's your early warning system. DirecTiVo owners, pick something to record with average or maximum visual activity for bitrate estimation. (This is most effective if you don't let anything else expire.)

In the meantime, the expiry system is a sufficient indicator of capacity usage. For you, no doubt it is. Declaring it so doesn't make it so for everyone else. Not everyone thinks the same way. I thought when I first got my TiVo that I'd come around to the 'not really needed' way of thinking as well, but I haven't. I still want a free/used space indicator. I don't want an early warning system, or a gut feeling of how much space there is from counting up suggestions, or any other kind of time-consuming work-around.

They can put the thing on the system information screen, visible only if backdoors are turned on. Or if they open up the system enough in the development program I'll write my own - would you care to wager my app or someone else's like it wouldn't be among the top TiVo add-in downloads, with at least a 4-cows rating at Tucows?

[BrettStah]

JPriller, I think it's already been written, actually. I don't recall what it's called, but a search in the Underground forum should find it...

[JPriller]

Originally posted by BrettStah
JPriller, I think it's already been written, actually. I don't recall what it's called, but a search in the Underground forum should find it... Yeah, I hadn't thought about the underground. But mine's going to be like this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14092) (only I'll get the colors right this time).

[HTH]

Originally posted by JPriller
93% of the folks who answered the poll here DID think it'd be useful at least some of the time, even if they weren't all willing to pay for it. I'll admit the forum here is way short of a good random sample of TiVo owners, but are they ALL mistaken?

The poll has its own problems, including a presumption that there should be such an indicator. Where are the options for, "There should not be a free space indicator" and "What, are you blind? The expiry model is the free space indicator!" How many people have not voted because an option to choose to deny the creation of a FSI wasn't offered?

And how many voters actually gave much thought to how they'd use such a quantified FSI and how useful it would be vs. those who would misinterpret its meaning?

I have one TiVo that is reasonably full of SUID and non-SUID episodes of Red Dwarf with more recorded 4 times a week (scheduled non-KUID). I often push forward some episodes to expire later. I know that when it tells me a show will have to be deleted as soon as the next one in the To Do List is scheduled to record is telling me the TiVo would be full if I made this change and didn't allow it to make this other change.

That TiVo is never truly full because it isn't straightjacketed and can always offer to delete something else earlier in order to record something.

I don't need it to tell me there are 54 minutes free. It tells me what I need to know when I need to know it. I don't use it in ways that prevent it from determining the best way to accede to my wishes.

Just what does a FSI tell you that you need to know that you can't get already? I'm not talking the feel-good knowledge of knowing you have so much space free; what practical benefit do you gain? If there's enough space to record what you want to schedule, what do you care how much there is? If there's enough space, there's enough space. There's no reason to quantify it.

The only time the amount of free space should ever matter to you is if there's not enough to do what you're asking it to do. And it tells you that at that time already. More than that, it tells you how much is available in the future and how it will make more available for you at that time as it relates to what you're trying to do.

I don't want... any other kind of time-consuming work-around.

Even if you do get a FSI that tells you exactly how many minutes of space you have available at the moment called "now" at various quality levels (or, in the case of DirecTiVo, best, worst, and average quality bitrates), you're still going to consume time trying to figure out how that relates to the contents of your To Do List for as much as two weeks of content to determine if you can record something. You're not saving yourself any work.

But if you just use expiry correctly, don't overuse/abuse S/KUID, don't let anything stay marked yellow that you care about, and absolutely don't let anything you want to keep get marked with a bang, you'll know everything you need to know to maintain your TiVo's content, and will be informed when you make adjustments when complying with them requires TiVo to make further adjustments and what those adjustments are.

I would have thought this subject settled long ago when a prominent FSI proponent practically argued in favor of even allowing such a FSI to display negative values (i.e. overscheduling)!

[SteakMan]

Originally posted by HTH
But if you just use expiry correctly, don't overuse/abuse S/KUID, don't let anything stay marked yellow that you care about, and absolutely don't let anything you want to keep get marked with a bang, you'll know everything you need to know to maintain your TiVo's content, and will be informed when you make adjustments when complying with them requires TiVo to make further adjustments and what those adjustments are.
I couldn't agree with this more, though I could care less if FSI were added or not. A FSI would be useless to me because it will alway read full, and that's the way it should be. My TiVo always has the maximum number of choices possible for me in the Now Playing screen.

-SteakMan-

[JPriller]

Originally posted by HTH
How many people have not voted because an option to choose to deny the creation of a FSI wasn't offered?I don't know. Not many who felt strongly enough about it to complain about its absense. I'd create another poll, but I imagine the moderators are quite understandably tired of the subject. And maybe the people who wanted a "NO I DON'T want it!" option were as well.And how many voters actually gave much thought to how they'd use such a quantified FSI and how useful it would be vs. those who would misinterpret its meaning?I don't know that either. Without asking them all individually I don't know how you'd get an answer to that. As for the posters here, I don't think any great percentage of them would misinterpret a 'how much space you've got RIGHT NOW' indicator.Just what does a FSI tell you that you need to know that you can't get already? I'm not talking the feel-good knowledge of knowing you have so much space free; what practical benefit do you gain? If there's enough space to record what you want to schedule, what do you care how much there is? If there's enough space, there's enough space. There's no reason to quantify it.I don't see anything wrong with 'feel good' knowledge, but I can understand why TiVo would wish to devote its development resources elsewhere (to folders, say). And while I think a plain free-space indicator would be useful on occasion, what I really want is this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14092).The only time the amount of free space should ever matter to you is if there's not enough to do what you're asking it to do. And it tells you that at that time already. More than that, it tells you how much is available in the future and how it will make more available for you at that time as it relates to what you're trying to do.Maybe I'm not sufficiently TiVO savvy yet and have missed something - not impossible.

A real-world scenario then. I'm going on vacation for a week and some, and my 118-hour SA TiVo is (how full? no idea, I suppose I could add up the shows in a spreadsheet) and a lot it is stuff I haven't watched yet and don't want to lose. There's another of TNN's ST:TNG marathons while we're gone and my wife wants to keep all of them, I wanna bump the 'keep' number of a dozen SPs from 3 to 5 and a half dozen from 5 to 'all', and set KUID on the few I and/or the wife really care about. I'm turning off suggestions, because I've been bit by the early-deletion bug and don't care to be again.

I've got a nice big TiVo, I guess it'll all fit... but where do I look and what all do I do to determine whether or not everything I want recorded and kept will (barring the heartbreak of signal loss) be there when I get back from vacation? I can't think of any way that doesn't involve lots of effort, but I'd be thrilled to find out I'm being stupid.Even if you do get a FSI that tells you exactly how many minutes of space you have available at the moment called "now" at various quality levels (or, in the case of DirecTiVo, best, worst, and average quality bitrates), you're still going to consume time trying to figure out how that relates to the contents of your To Do List for as much as two weeks of content to determine if you can record something. You're not saving yourself any work.If I did it that way, no. But I want the TiVo to do all that for me and give me a graph. I know it's not ever going to be a high priority with TiVo, so I'm willing to write it myself once the development program gets going. I guess the reason I'm spending time arguing about it isn't to convince TiVo they have to give me one, or to convice you that you need one, but to convince you that even if you don't want one, I still do, and not just to feel good.I would have thought this subject settled long ago when a prominent FSI proponent practically argued in favor of even allowing such a FSI to display negative values (i.e. overscheduling)! Now that's just silly. :)

[BrettStah]

JPriller... you don't want a Free Space Indicator (at least not the classic "You have this amount free right now"). You (based on the chart you linked to) want to know when your Tivo will fill up (i.e., when will you start losing things).

Am I right?

[JPriller]

Originally posted by BrettStah
JPriller... you don't want a Free Space Indicator (at least not the classic "You have this amount free right now"). You (based on the chart you linked to) want to know when your Tivo will fill up (i.e., when will you start losing things).

Am I right? Correct. A pure free-space indicator would also be nice, but as HTH has correctly divined it'd be more of a feel-good thing. I want to be able to look at one thing in one spot, and be able to see fairly quickly when stuff I want to keep around is going to get zapped or when new stuff I want to get won't fit. My graph idea, an X-day-forecast of space usage, is my first approximation of that.

If you're about to tell me I can get all of that information now in some simple way I've overlooked, I'll gladly sit here while anyone who wants to calls me an idiot. :)

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by JPriller
Correct. A pure free-space indicator would also be nice, but as HTH has correctly divined it'd be more of a feel-good thing. I want to be able to look at one thing in one spot, and be able to see fairly quickly when stuff I want to keep around is going to get zapped or when new stuff I want to get won't fit. My graph idea, an X-day-forecast of space usage, is my first approximation of that.

If you're about to tell me I can get all of that information now in some simple way I've overlooked, I'll gladly sit here while anyone who wants to calls me an idiot. :) Nope, not going to tell you that you overlooked something...

What I've long suggested is some sort of indicator of when, based on the current information available to the Tivo, the Tivo will have to delete a non-suggestion recording. I don't think any charts are necessary (not that I'm criticizing your chart! :))

Usually, this is the recording at the bottom of Now Playing, right above any suggestions. If my Tivo could tell me (pretty accurately) that it will have to delete that oldest expired recording next Friday at 7:00 pm, I don't really care about current free space at all. Of course, there is some debate as to how accurate a Tivo could keep this deletion date. Every time you would add/remove things from the To Do List, this date could change. I think that even current Series1 standalone Tivos have enough horsepower to keep it up-to-date... just simple arithmetic, basically, right? Sure, we have VBR issues to worry about, but I bet that Tivo can make the estimate pretty accurate. It should be conservative if it has to guess a little.

[JPriller]

Originally posted by BrettStah
What I've long suggested is some sort of indicator of when, based on the current information available to the Tivo, the Tivo will have to delete a non-suggestion recording.That could work very well, if it were all available in one spot - say you pressed some combination on the remote in Now Playing and an expanded view appeared. I think this has been presented before (by you?) but:

Star Trek 3/11
will be deleted approx. 3/28 6:30am to make room for
New Yankee Workshop

Battlebots 3/10
will expire approx. 3/29 10:00pm due to 'keep at most' setting (3)

That provides detail the graph does not, I'd just have to look over everything I care about (maybe it could sort by inverse deletion date).

[HTH]

Originally posted by JPriller
I don't see anything wrong with 'feel good' knowledge, but I can understand why TiVo would wish to devote its development resources elsewhere (to folders, say). And while I think a plain free-space indicator would be useful on occasion, what I really want is this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14092).
A version of a graph was successfully made for 1.3.0 and earlier, but TiVo's behavior changed with 2.0 and the introduction of just-in-time deletion. Unfortunately, I can't find the reference to the png image. (If I had it, I'd do a visual example of my pipeline model.)

A real-world scenario then. I'm going on vacation for a week and some, and my 118-hour SA TiVo is (how full? no idea, I suppose I could add up the shows in a spreadsheet) and a lot it is stuff I haven't watched yet and don't want to lose. There's another of TNN's ST:TNG marathons while we're gone and my wife wants to keep all of them, I wanna bump the 'keep' number of a dozen SPs from 3 to 5 and a half dozen from 5 to 'all', and set KUID on the few I and/or the wife really care about. I'm turning off suggestions, because I've been bit by the early-deletion bug and don't care to be again.

I've got a nice big TiVo, I guess it'll all fit... but where do I look and what all do I do to determine whether or not everything I want recorded and kept will (barring the heartbreak of signal loss) be there when I get back from vacation? I can't think of any way that doesn't involve lots of effort, but I'd be thrilled to find out I'm being stupid.
You find out by doing just what you said you'd do in the earlier paragraph. It will tell you when what you're requesting is getting to be too much to expect. Then you can choose to change some of the upcoming To Do List entries to record at lower qualities (where applicable).

I've done this myself in relation to a trip to a football game. I pushed forward expiries of existing shows, changed scheduled shows to one-shot recordings with more than the default 2 days of retention (changing them to one-shot recordings also divorced them from the Keep At Most rules), and when it started saying others I'd wanted to keep would expire sooner, I reduced some of the To Do List recordings' quality levels until they'd all stay until I got back.

It works. I did it, and it told me everything I needed to know to get it to keep want I wanted it to keep for the duration of my absence.

What would really help in that situation though is some kind of Vacation Mode so that the TiVo could do all that work for you, that would say, "Assume everything that isn't expired and everything scheduled are things I want to watch before they get deleted. I'm going to be away until this date. What adjustments would need to be made to keep all that 'til that date? Offer recording quality adjustments according to show category and thumb ratings."

Unfortunately, for a FSI or usage graph, the amount of information it would need to communicate exceeds the amount of information the average consumer can understand at once. So I agree with TiVo's expiry model and need-to-know notification.

Historical note: did you know that, before 2.0, it was not possible to mark recordings to expire earlier? You could only Save Until I Delete or Save Longer, and SUID was literally until you deleted it because you couldn't convert it back to an expiring recording. Now you can make things expire sooner, allowing you to construct queries like, "If this recording were to expire on Friday, could I then save this other recording 'til Monday?"

[JPriller]

Originally posted by HTH
You find out by doing just what you said you'd do in the earlier paragraph. It will tell you when what you're requesting is getting to be too much to expect. Then you can choose to change some of the upcoming To Do List entries to record at lower qualities (where applicable).I didn't realize that, thanks. I've never run into that before, and while I was doing all my vacation changes (which was last week) the TiVo accepted each quietly. Well, I think it did complain when I bumped ST:TNG from 'keep 5' to 'keep all', saying (if I remember correctly) that it couldn't really get me ALL episodes because of conflicting SPs that outranked it.

The bad news is I still wish I had my graph (or at least a pure free-space indicator for a gut feeling) to determine how quickly I have to watch the collection of recorded stuff.

Okay, 10 minutes with the remote and a spreadsheet later, the answer is... it's still only about half full after a week's worth of shows, so no hurry. Maybe I'll just leave it in my 'vacation mode' for good.Unfortunately, for a FSI or usage graph, the amount of information it would need to communicate exceeds the amount of information the average consumer can understand at once. So I agree with TiVo's expiry model and need-to-know notification.I guess I don't know what one can expect from an average consumer, but I have to agree that it'd be better as a power-user kind of add-in.

[smak]

Yes, tivo knows everything....Tivo can calculate right now, that if i don't watch anything, that it will need to delete X show at X time. I think there's no doubt it knows this...Why not tell us. I'm not sure we need it on every item in now showing. Just a simple line at the bottom. The next show to be deleted is X on X at X..Simple enough. We don't need a free space indicator really. We need to know "Should i go to bed now, or watch a few hours of TV. Should i delete some flim-flam, or am i ok, because i have until tuesday, and will watch a bunch of stuff by then...etc.."

At the very least, and it's something that cannot confuse, and will not hurt anybody is just a "You currently have 22 hours of recordings in now playing". That's a good start. Leave it to us to figure out the rest, if they don't want to get into the you have 1 hour of best, 2 1/2 of medium conundrum, just go with that.

I mean in 5 years, hopefully Tivo will be going strong, and i know the standard tivo device will be at least 80 hours. Stuff is going to get harder to manage. They need to start getting into the managing of stuff already recorded segment, since they've done really well with the managing of stuff i want to record in the future. The management of stuff already recorded is one of the weaker aspects of Tivo right now.

I know on my 146 hour tivo, i have suggestions turned off....I have a lot of stuff on there. If i don't watch anything for a day or 2, i have to turn suggestions on, and see what it's going to do...If after a day or 2, it only has 5 suggestions there, i know i need to watch/delete stuff. If 30 suggestions show up, i know i'm ok, but than i have to go delete every suggestion by hand. (How about a delete all suggestions click, that would be cool too.)

-smak-

[HTH]

Originally posted by smak
Yes, tivo knows everything....Tivo can calculate right now, that if i don't watch anything, that it will need to delete X show at X time. I think there's no doubt it knows this...Why not tell us. I'm not sure we need it on every item in now showing.
Well, it's there anyway. And in the To Do List too. It tells you exactly when it will expire. If you're so low on disk space that it's less than 48 hours from the date it was recorded, or even just not at the same time of day/night as it was recorded (modulo local observations of DST (soon)), then you have reason for concern.

Of course, if you foolishly let things expire that you don't want deleted, it won't help you. Gotta use the tools correctly to get good use out of them.

And while they're still in the To Do List, you can even find out when Suggestions will delete. In Now Playing it's a bit more difficult to find out and the result is a bit fuzzy.

[jsoukeras]

I didn't read all of the other threads but I have an idea what the people against a free space indicator have to say on the subject: What is the point?

In many cases a TiVo is always full. Exactly what purpouse would a free space indicator serve?

I'm curious. If you think it's a good idea to have one please explain a practical application. Let's assume the counter exists. You have, say, 20 free hours right this second. Now what? I don't see how this is useful since that doesn't take into account the fact that some of this free space will be used for future recording so you don't REALLY have 20 free hours. That's like saying you've got $2000.00 in the bank but you have to pay your mortgage in three days. Should you go shopping and spend $2000.00 because you have money right this second?


Jason

[JPriller]

Originally posted by jsoukeras
I didn't read all of the other threads but I have an idea what the people against a free space indicator have to say on the subject: What is the point?

In many cases a TiVo is always full. Exactly what purpouse would a free space indicator serve?Yes, but full of what? I want to know how much available space I have now and over time, with 'available space' to me meaning what's left over after my requested recordings, not counting suggestions.I'm curious. If you think it's a good idea to have one please explain a practical application. Let's assume the counter exists. You have, say, 20 free hours right this second. Now what? I don't see how this is useful since that doesn't take into account the fact that some of this free space will be used for future recording so you don't REALLY have 20 free hours. That's like saying you've got $2000.00 in the bank but you have to pay your mortgage in three days. Should you go shopping and spend $2000.00 because you have money right this second?All of that is true, which is why a free-space NOW counter is only useful if you just have to know what is available NOW. I and some other people have had a different idea, for a X-day forecast graph of space usage (thread here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14092), again). This takes into account all recordings the TiVo knows it's going to make and what it knows it's allowed to delete. By just glancing at the graph it'd be simple to find out what I want: when any of my requested shows will start disappearing, and how much space I'll have available at any point in the forecast.

(Where's that developer's program package? I want to start writing this!)

[HTH]

What do you think of this graph (http://tivo.lightn.org/space.png)?

[JPriller]

Originally posted by HTH
What do you think of this graph (http://tivo.lightn.org/space.png)? It's not quite broken up into the categories I'd like, but the idea's the same. The 'deleted' space being included is interesting, though I can't think of a use for it. I'd only complain about the aesthetics, I'd want each color category bar to be contiguous and the suggestions bar coming down from the top seems odd.

That's from TivoWeb?

[TonyD79]

I don't get the argument AGAINST a free-space indicator.

Let's see. Every COMPUTER I ever worked on told me how much disk space was free, even if I had kron jobs scheduled to fill it up later.

My DIGITAL CAMERA tells me how many pictures I have left on my flashcard based upon the current quality rating (gee, you think that confuses non-computer people who are buying the cameras at an alarming rate?).

My VCR (!) tells me how much room is left on the tape.

None of these ANTICIPATE what I will delete (or rewind on) but they are all TOOLS for making decisions.

The flaw in saying that TiVo knows what will be the disk space tomorrow or the next day is that you are ASSUMING that TiVo is doing all the deleting. I've got news for you: If I watch The Simpsons that recorded at 7 pm at 8pm tonight, I will delete it then. Not wait until TiVo deletes it for me three days from now. Maybe I just hate clutter; maybe I don't need to save it all; maybe I don't want to watch it again.

So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow. It can only "suggest" or tell you that without human intervention, something will have to give.

So, give me the RIGHT to over-schedule but tell me that there is a potential problem like "Unless you make some free space before this program comes on, it will NOT record."

And tell me how much free space is available now.

Funny how every other technology will tell me in real space what I have left but somehow a TiVo (which is technologically advanced as are most of its users) thinks it is "confusing."

Gimme a break.

[BrettStah]

Tony, here's why I think a simple free space indicator (without any other enhancements) would be confusing to many people, and not as useful as many others think it would be:

A Tivo user checks the spiffy new free space indicator. It indicates that there are 10 hours free (at the default quality) right now. Or, if you prefer, it indicates there are X GB of space free right now.

The user goes into the guide, and attempts to schedule the Academy Awards to record Sunday night.

Possible Result #1: Tivo schedules the recording without complaint, user finds out Monday that 3 hours of recordings that were expired were deleted to make room for the Academy Awards. Why did this happen, if it said that there were 10 hours free? The user realizes the shows were expired, but assumed that with 10 hours free he wouldn't lose any non-suggestions. Oh yeah, the user's Tivo was busy recording other things between the time he checked the free space and the Academy Awards aired, and there wasn't enough space to fit the Academy Awards show. So the free space indicator didn't provide enough information to accurately judge if enough space was actually going to be available in the future.

Possible Result #2: Tivo tells the user that there won't be enough room to fit the Academy Awards. Why, if there are 10 hours free? Oh yeah, the user has to take the upcoming schedule (aka To Do List) into account. So the free space isn't enough information to rely on to make decisions.

These are two very likely possible results, in my opinion. Even if/when users figure out that the free space indicator isn't actually telling them what they initially thought it was telling them, users STILL have to figure out when the Tivo will run out of space, since what most people really actually want to know is when they will start to lose non-suggestion recordings.

Now, I do completely understand the current Tivo's expiration-based system, and don't the fundamentals of that to change. But, unlike HTH, I would love if Tivo would predict when expired shows will be deleted, based on the current information Tivo has to base a prediction off of.

The suggestion smak had would be acceptable to me.

Basically, it doesn't/shouldn't matter how much free space you have right now... when will you lose recordings is a much better/more useful piece of knowledge I'd like have. Both would be fine, but I'd pick the latter if I could only have one.

[HTH]

Originally posted by JPriller
It's not quite broken up into the categories I'd like, but the idea's the same. The 'deleted' space being included is interesting, though I can't think of a use for it. I'd only complain about the aesthetics, I'd want each color category bar to be contiguous and the suggestions bar coming down from the top seems odd.

That's from TivoWeb?
AFAIK, yes, though I think it could only be derived from pre-2.0 software, due to the introduction of just-in-time deletion to accomodate the variable bit rates of DirecTV feeds.

I'm glad I found it again. It gives me a chance to massage the same data into the pipeline model I have in mind, where recordings are at the bottom and extend to their expiry date and pending recordings descend from the top, with expired recordings, suggestions, and other free space between. Though I'd prefer to have access to some raw data which included expiration dates. (Modeling expiration is important for my graph. The consequences in terms of deletion become readily apparent in it without directly modeling them.)

[HTH]

Originally posted by TonyD79
So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow.
Sure it can. You can tell it by adjusting the expiry to be within a 24 hour period after the time you expect to delete the show yourself. Once it has that information from you, it can reasonably predict availability in the future. If you refuse to give it that information, you have no business complaining that it can't reliably predict the future.

The ability to manually expire things earlier is one of the features added with 2.0.

[jsoukeras]

Originally posted by TonyD79
I don't get the argument AGAINST a free-space indicator.

Let's see. Every COMPUTER I ever worked on told me how much disk space was free, even if I had kron jobs scheduled to fill it up later.

My DIGITAL CAMERA tells me how many pictures I have left on my flashcard based upon the current quality rating (gee, you think that confuses non-computer people who are buying the cameras at an alarming rate?).

My VCR (!) tells me how much room is left on the tape.

None of these ANTICIPATE what I will delete (or rewind on) but they are all TOOLS for making decisions.

The flaw in saying that TiVo knows what will be the disk space tomorrow or the next day is that you are ASSUMING that TiVo is doing all the deleting. I've got news for you: If I watch The Simpsons that recorded at 7 pm at 8pm tonight, I will delete it then. Not wait until TiVo deletes it for me three days from now. Maybe I just hate clutter; maybe I don't need to save it all; maybe I don't want to watch it again.

So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow. It can only "suggest" or tell you that without human intervention, something will have to give.

So, give me the RIGHT to over-schedule but tell me that there is a potential problem like "Unless you make some free space before this program comes on, it will NOT record."

And tell me how much free space is available now.

Funny how every other technology will tell me in real space what I have left but somehow a TiVo (which is technologically advanced as are most of its users) thinks it is "confusing."

Gimme a break.

I don't have anything against a free space meter. I just think it wouldn't provide any useful information. There is no perfect way to handle this. Most people want to be sure that something gets recorded if they elect to record it. The easiest (not necessarily the best) way to accomplish this is to prevent new recordings if, based on what TiVo knows right this second, the new recordings won't fit.

Your analogies aren't appropriate.

You can "ls >> foo.txt" a million times. Just because your computer will LET you do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Your digital camera tells you how many pictures you have left but your digital camera doesn't know you have 20 pictures scheduled because you can't schedule pictures.

Your VCR tells you you have 45 minutes left on a tape but it won't complain if you have 20 events scheduled to record that can't possibly fit on a tape.

The challenge in telling a person (accurately) what free space they have left is the fact that season passes exist. If you have 10 season passes for shows that are 1 hour each and are on 5 times a week that's 200 hours. Even the largest TiVo will fill up eventually.

I think the way they handle it is reasonable. Tell it what you want to record. If it projects that space won't be available mark something as save until space needed or delete it. What's the big deal?

My TiVo is always "full." Everything is save until space needed unless I want to be sure it doesn't get deleted then it's SUID. I never run out of space because I either watch a show and delete it or TiVo deletes it because it needed the space. If it was SO important to me that I didn't want to lose it I would have either watched it before it fell off or I would have marked it SUID.

I think the conflict between the "Who needs this feature?" people and the "Why don't we have this feature?" people because the people who want the TiVo to indicate free space try to keep their TiVos clean. You guys probably rapidly delete shows and try to get your space back. Other people, like me, just let TiVo manage the space based on what they told TiVo. If TiVo deletes an old show because it had to make room for a new show I don't really care.

I'd like to throw a wrench into the works. Your TiVo has 1 hour of free space left. You want to record a show that is 2 hours. TiVo tells you" Well, I'll try. If I don't have the room I won't record it." So you watch two Simpsons episodes and delete them. Now you have 2 free hours. This 2 hour "I'll record it if I can" show comes on. TiVo records it. An hour later a show that you REALLY want recorded (it's part of a season pass) comes on now there isn't any space. So TiVo recorded your "I'll record it if I can" and no longer has room for your season pass. I see that as a problem.


Jason

[rkcarter]

I'm with those wanting TiVo to say it will try, even if no space (and in the To Do List it could have something next to them meaning "will tape if there's room but there's currently not going to be."

To me, SUID means I might keep it a year, but I might get home tonight and watch it. And to me it means, if I haven't deleted it and there's no room left, FINE, don't tape stuff for me. But if I have deleted things why should I have to go back in and add things then, rather than when *I* want to?

On a related note (I'll see if there's a thread and post elsewhere but while I'm thinking of it), sometimes a Season Pass will result in no shows being taped ... but that's only over the next ~10 days. And the only options are (from memory) "Record more shows" or "Delete this season pass." I'd like a third option -- "Keep this season pass even though it won't currently record anything."

- Rick

[HTH]

Originally posted by rkcarter
I'm with those wanting TiVo to say it will try, even if no space (and in the To Do List it could have something next to them meaning "will tape if there's room but there's currently not going to be."
For any repeating recording (Season Pass, Wishlist, or repeating Manual Recording), it will schedule the recordings into the To Do List when enough space becomes available. One-shot recordings (anything that would get a single-check icon, including movies and single-event Manual Recordings) must have enough space predicted to be available at the their time in the schedule when added to the schedule now, and will not make way for others if you try to record more. One-shot recordings aren't rescheduled, so you must have enough space available to schedule them in the first place.

To me, SUID means I might keep it a year, but I might get home tonight and watch it. And to me it means, if I haven't deleted it and there's no room left, FINE, don't tape stuff for me. But if I have deleted things why should I have to go back in and add things then, rather than when *I* want to?
The question is unclear.

The last question requests what is already the default when you do nothing.

[abatie]

I've always had a Replay, and when I got a DSR-6000 to get the integrated satellite receiver, not knowing how much space I had was really frustrating. But after using for several months, the design of the user interface has yet again changed the way I use it. With Replay, I say "record these shows" and reserve space for them to make sure they will always be recorded. With that model, free space is critical. The Tivo, however, acts as a stack. The oldest shows drop off the bottom and the newest ones are pushed onto the top. A free space indicator is useless, because there's never any free space (save when I delete stuff that got recorded that I didn't want). I'm not sure what a good space management information system would look like, but a simple free-space indicator wouldn't do any good. I find that while I like many aspects of the Replay user interface better, and man I wish they'd improve the performance of the Tivo user interface!, I do really like the stack aspect of the Tivo --- it's much easier to find the stuff I haven't watched already.

[HTH]

Technically, it's a queue, not a stack. A stack adds and removes at the same end. A queue adds to one end and removes from the other. ;)

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by Blahman
I could get by without a free space indicator if I could just get some simple info without having to manually add it all up.

On the Sytem Info screen it would be nice if it listed:
1). Number of hours worth of material currently in Now Playing - Tivo Suggested Recordings
2). Number of hours worth of material currently in To Do List - Tivo Suggestions

On my ~259 hour unit this would be a great help.

Of course soon I'll also want batch save to VCR and/or editting.. :)

Yes, I know I can do the math for both 1 and 2, but why should I when the DTivo already knows the answer. Plus think about it. ~259 hours is ~518 half hour episodes of various TV shows, or ~129 two hour movies. Really sucks trying to keep a count on that when the hardware already does so.

KUDOS to your simple suggestions!

I'm tired of hearing about using Record Suggestions as a method for judging available space. Over the past year, I have heard of many complaints about Suggestions causing deletions of wanted programs.

Yeah, I know it's not supposed to happen, but obviosly there are some situations where it can happen...ie: Timing.

Anyway, I might consider turning on Suggestions, if TiVo would simply provide a re-occurring statistic on the total current space used by those suggestions. That instead of my having to add them up myself.

I suggest this as something interim until a true FSI could be introduced.

[HTH]

Why oh why did this topic have to suddenly explode as a thread in the Coffee House?

[martinp13]

You know how kids are these days...

Actually, I think it happened because of RB's comment.

[vegaspl]

I understand the thread"Free Space Quote From RB Interview" has had postings on that extremely popular subject, MOVED to here.

As RB stated on 4/30 on THAT thread, before he left .....

"I'm going to ask the "User Experience Team to take a look at this thread. And then I am going to step away from the keyboard!

I sure hope the "User Experience Team " will consider looking at THIS thread as part of his request to them.

[BrettStah]

A little further in that same thread he implied that they (the programming team) had responded, and that some sort of decision had already been reached...

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
A little further in that same thread he implied that they (the programming team) had responded, and that some sort of decision had already been reached...

I must have missed that (or misread it). Any Idea what that DECISION that had been reached was?

[Deven]

HTH, your arguments always seem to rest on the notion that the user should know in advance when they'll watch a program, and adjust the expiration times accordingly. Well, maybe you plan out your TV watching schedule in advance. I know I don't, and I'm guessing most other TiVo users don't either. I know I'll watch (and delete) something, but I don't know what.

You also seem to have this bizarre notion that you can "abuse" the SUID/KUID functions by using them too much. This is ridiculous. I may not know which programs I will watch-and-delete in the near future, but you can bet that I'll free up a few hours from watching and deleting something tonight. Whichever programs those are, I'll delete them when I'm done with them. But I mean SUID/KUID as exactly that -- save/keep this program until I delete it, not until I think I'll probably get around to watching it. When it's time, I'll know it. Until then, it should never be deleted. Period, end of subject.

I should be able to mark 100% of my recordings as SUID/KUID without crippling my TiVo. As long as I delete enough programs in time, it wouldn't be an overrun situation, so there's no reason I should ever miss a recording for doing so. (If I'm not watching enough, I'll miss something now -- something that will get randomly deleted to make room. How is that any better?) And since I don't know in advance what I'll choose to watch, I can't tell the TiVo in advance which shows should be expired when. (And life may interfere; if I don't get a chance to watch what I intended, I shouldn't lose it as a result.) Even if I record 100% SUID/KUID, that's not an overrun situation as long as I keep deleting enough programs before the space is needed. Of course, without a free space indicator, that's much harder to do.

Let's not forget that TiVo's tagline is "TV Your Way". Well, my way is that I watch whatever I feel like watching at any given moment, from the selection of programs available in my Now Playing list. I do not watch programs in a FIFO queue where I always watch the oldest program. In fact, I'll often watch the lighter half-hour comedies first and save the heavier dramas for later.

In practice, I regularly find that I've fallen several weeks behind on a given program, even if it's one of my favorites. But I sure as hell don't want those episodes deleted, even if they're weeks old. Typically, I'll sit down and watch a mini-marathon of a particular show to catch up. Properly, they should all be SUID/KUID. In practice, the TiVo's design doesn't allow this.

SUID/KUID means that a program should be kept indefinitely. The fundamental flaw with the TiVo's implementation is that it assumes this means infinitely, which is unlikely to be the user's intent. However, since there's no "Save Forever" alternative to "Save Until I Delete", this distinction is undifferentiated.

Since the TiVo can't know if a SUID program will be deleted soon or kept forever, it shouldn't refuse to schedule new rew recordings on the arbitrary assumption that SUID means "forever". Since keeping a program forever would permanently reduce the amount of disk space available, it should be obvious that this won't be the norm.

If there's an abundance of SUID programs on the system, chances are that most of them will be deleted, sooner or later. Which ones will be deleted? Who cares?!? Disk space is eminently fungible. It doesn't matter which program gets deleted, as long as the requisite disk space has been released for re-use. And if something's going to be deleted unwatched, I'd rather pick the victim myself than have the TiVo pick at random, thank you very much. I can't count the number of times when my TiVo has blown away something very important to me when I could have deleted something much less important, given the opportunity and sufficient warning to do so.

I want to keep every program I care about indefinitely. And I mean precisely that; there is no definite amount of time for how long I will keep a given program. Often, I'll watch and delete the program within 24 hours. Sometimes I won't get around to watching it for weeks. Either way, I don't want it deleted without my say-so. Automatic expirations operate on the theory that a definite amount of time should apply, which is incredibly arbitrary and makes a mockery of "TV Your Way".

Because SUID/KUID can't be used properly (to mark ALL programs that I want to keep I'm forced into a nightly ritual of spending (literally) 15-20 minutes adjusting the expiration times on nearly every program I have. This is wasted time that would have been better spent watching and deleting programs instead of trying to protect them from the axe.

If the TiVo were to offer an FSI and handle SUID more elegantly, I could get down to the business of watching TV instead of having to get bogged down in administrivia like expiration times. And isn't that the ultimate purpose of the TiVo in the first place??

[vegaspl]

Deven

Don't get me wrong. I agree with 95% of what you have expressed!

However, I am a bit confused by what you said regarding SUID's having been deleted by TiVo.

I have been under the impression that SUID's cannot, under any circumstances, be Arbitrarily deleted by TiVo.

Even if ALL your recordings were earmarked SUID, and you ran out of space, TiVo would just "Not Record" the next scheduled recording. Those next scheduled (from SP/ TDL) or an immediately requested recording.

That would be shown in RH as "Wont Record"

If I am wrong, someone let me know.

In any case, it is a totally unacceptable situation, that could easily be avoided if either or both of the following simple solutions were implemented by TiVo:

1) A Dynamic warning stating something like the following:

"WARNING - SPACE MANAGEMENT MAY BE NEEDED. Based on your NP and TDL, certain programs will either start being deleted or recordings thwarted at approximately XX/XX unless space is freed up"

The above would eliminate the wasted premature efforts to start prioritizing Save until dates by MANUALLY calculating the NP & TDL when
not needed.

2) A Dynamic FSI (As requested by many) that simply indicates how much space is either used or available.


BOTH would be ideal!!!

[rbird]

Deven, thanks for summing it up so nicely (again).

I've discovered the root of my problem. I don't use suggestions, and when I tell Tivo I want to see a show, I WILL watch it. So there's NEVER anything on there that I don't plan to watch at some point. Ideally, like Deven, I would mark everything SUID. Unfortunately, Tivo stops functioning properly when you do this. So I end up taking time out of my schedule quite often (every day, when the Tivo is "full") to save things longer. It really gets annoying after a while.

Of course, some will say I'm using Tivo "wrong". (Please see my new user title to the left! :)) Or that I don't "get" the "Tivo philosophy". But isn't Tivo supposed to be a PERSONAL video recorder? I can choose to use or not use functions as I see fit (at least until Hollings and Kellner get their way).

IMHO, Tivo needs to realize that maybe their vision of how the software should work isn't how most people actually watch TV. (I'm not saying that's true, just that it MIGHT be true). Building in functions like an FSI or an expiration system that actually makes sense, while possibly never used by Tivo employees, could be useful to a large percentage of their user base.

There's a reason why one of the most asked questions in the Help Forum is "how do I tell how much space I have?".

Bob

[BrettStah]

By "crippled", you mean that Tivo won't let you over-book the space with any new single-recordings, right? You can still create new season passes and auto-record wishlists, and they'll show up in Recording History as "Won't Record", if I recall how it works.

[HTH]

Originally posted by Deven
I'm sorry, were you saying something?

[Samsara]

Ok, kids, I'm not about to close this thread, so that means that if you can't play nice, I'm going to have to sit here on my noisy, 24k-at-best dialup phone lines editing and deleting individual posts for three hours, and if anybody makes me waste my time like that, I'm going to take my share of Xaa's moderator fund and send a few singing telegrams to your respective offices to serenade you with Taiwanese rap songs backed up by the MIDI players on their PDAs and cell phones.

Same goes for any off-topic replies this may inspire; PM me instead.

Now, somebody please post another well-reasoned, on-topic, and mind-numbingly unoriginal post on this dead horse of a topic so I can back to ignoring this thread. :)

Samsara

[TreborPugly]

Originally posted by Samsara
Now, somebody please post another well-reasoned, on-topic, and mind-numbingly unoriginal post on this dead horse of a topic so I can back to ignoring this thread. :)

Samsara


Okay, since you asked, and I've just read the last few posts in this thread for the first time:

Knowing the total capacity of the hard drive: (ie, how much space you could use for recording in GB)

1. Space used by SUID/KUID recordings
2. Space used by recordings which are expired or will expire
3. Space required by all scheduled recordings

for example:

With 75 GB total capacity for recording:


SUID/KUID recordings 25.29 GB
Expirable recordings 35.93 GB
Scheduled recordings 55.10 GB



Is this good enough Samsara, or do I need to ramble on for a while too?

Treb

P.S. I know the spell checker doesn't like "Expirable," but Webster's does.

[Samsara]

Originally posted by TreborPugly
Is this good enough Samsara, or do I need to ramble on for a while too?

Don't worry, there will be time for rambling in your reply to the next guy, who will tell you how and why your idea will be such a massive source of confussion that businesses will lose more money in sick days and lowered productivity than the last two Star Wars films combined.

Alternatively, you could wait for someone else to call that guy an idiot for you, but then he'll offer up his own version of an FSI, and you'll have to thank him for defending you while simultaneously tearing his idea to shreds.

Samsara

[beejay]

OK, Treb, I like the basic idea. The only worry I have (see, Samsara warned you) is the number of people who don't know what GB is (and there is nothing that tells you on normal screens what the total is on your TiVo.)

Perhaps percentages would be better. (I will now accept rants from everyone pointing out that many TiVo users probably don't understand percentages either.)

But I'll take anything that improves on the current method of adding up your recorded suggestions as an approximation of "free space".

[jp78]

Time to throw a little fuel on the fire. :)

Who cares about free space? When it comes right down to it, you don't really care how much free space there is on your TiVo (indeed, if you have suggestions turned on, there isn't any).

I care about two things:

1. How much time will I have to spend watching the programming that is currently on my TiVo.

2. Will TiVo be able to record the programs I've asked it to and still keep the ones around that I want to see.

Rather than a free space indicator, how about some kind of space used indicator ("non-free" space?). This is all information we can currently get right now; TiVo will happily show it to us, but only one program at a time... we have to add it up by hand.

Something simple like this:

TiVo currently contains the following:
5:00 KUID Programming
15:00 Unexpired Programming
7:30 Expired Programming
3:00 Suggested Programming

But we also want future information. Again, the information is there, we just have to go find it (on the ToDo and Recording History lists):

Tonight, TiVo will record
2:00 of Season Pass programming (1:00 is SUID)
0:30 of Suggested programming

Tomorrow, TiVo will record
3:00 of Season Pass programming
0:30 of Wish List programming
0:30 of Suggested programming
TiVo will not record
1:00 of Season Pass programming due to a conflict
1:00 of Wish List programming due to KAM restrictions
TiVo will delete
3:00 of Expired programming
3:30 of Suggested programming
and
2:00 of Season Pass programming will expire
1:00 of Wish List programming will expire

I've also seen some good suggestions on handling the expiration of shows. I know that right now, I tend to spend a few minutes (maybe 10) each day, on each of my TiVos, updating the expiration of some shows that I know I want to see but have not had time to watch yet. If there were an easier way to do that, it would make me happier (one example I read was to use the thumb buttons to bump up [or down] the expiration time of a show right from now showing.

I suspect that we will never come to a consensus on what makes a good free space indicator, but access to summary information about TiVo's current state and what it's going to do next would simplify my management of the box. And when you come right down to it, that's why we bought TiVos, in the first place... to make it easier to watch the programming we want, when we want to.

[martinp13]

jp78: I appreciate your copious typing... at least I didn't have to guess what you meant by anything. :) But the information you have presented to the user is too much and too vague.

It would take at least three screens to present all that to the user, and making someone page thru a commonly viewed status screen is criminal. Don't you cuss every time you have to page thru Now Playing? :)

And giving such vague information is like giving a weather report that says "There will be clouds in the sky". Are they white puffy clouds? Dark thunderheads? And the all-important bottom line: am I gonna get wet??? If you just tell the user "1:00 of Expired Programming is gonna be whacked", you really haven't told them much at all. They have to go to yet another screen to see what programming is toast. And what if the next two expired things on the chopping block are a 30-min sitcom and a 4-hour football game? It isn't REALLY going to delete "1:00", eh? :)

[rbird]

I would just like to comment that with the newfound hidden ability to sort Now Playing by expiration date, Tivo has fulfilled about 30% of my desire for space management features.

I wonder what other features are hidden under the top layer of the Tivo software.

Bob

[chipwood]

Originally posted by rbird
I would just like to comment that with the newfound hidden ability to sort Now Playing by expiration date, Tivo has fulfilled about 30% of my desire for space management features.


And even more of mine. I think all the "used" space information could be done on a single screen (just the current usage). It's REALLY REALLY important to be able to see how much of my space is taken up by SUID/KUID recordings... that directly impacts the capacity of the Tivo to work "as intended".

Unfortunately, sorting by expiration date doesn't accurately reflect the actual order in which programs will be deleted (if you use "Save at Most"). If programs could be sorted in actual (projected(?)) order of deletion, and the current usage by recording type info were available somewhere, I'd be all set.

[vegaspl]

As I have stated on numerous occasions but, well worth repeating:

Dynamic readouts of....

1) Hours Available at each Quality

2) When TiVo will START deleting NP's (Based on current NP & TDL combined)

How much simpler can you get?

I do that manually whenever I even SUSPECT I am coming close to "Deletion Time"

Even with all the TiVo's and all the capacity I have... I find it extremely USEFUL!!

[HTH]

I get (2) when I am coming close to "deletion time", not just when I suspect, as long as I make sure that what I want to keep isn't expired. I have no need for (1).

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by HTH
I get (2) when I am coming close to "deletion time", not just when I suspect, as long as I make sure that what I want to keep isn't expired. I have no need for (1).

"... as long as I make sure that what I want to keep isn't expired"

Yeah! That's the point, it's what you have to go thru to "make sure".

Why oh why, should you have to do that. Re-arranging expiration dates on many recordings can be tedious. I would only want to have to do that if & when TiVo tells me that if I don't do it by a certain date, that I will lose some recordings (or others won't record).

Then, and only then, will I decide if I want to exercise the option of hastening my viewing and subsequent deleting, or... limiting my upcoming recordings

YOU may not have a need for (1), but I still think it would be somewhat informative ALONG with (2)! By the many, many here that have clam-mered for it, I presume they would too.:p

[HTH]

Originally posted by vegaspl
"... as long as I make sure that what I want to keep isn't expired"

Yeah! That's the point, it's what you have to go thru to "make sure".

Why oh why, should you have to do that. Re-arranging expiration dates on many recordings can be tedious.
You have to do that because that's how it works. And it's only tedious if you let them pile up. If you have a really large TiVo, there's nothing wrong with making them SUID so there's only one adjustment to make.

It takes only the smallest amount of personal discipline to keep important recordings unexpired. I do it on three TiVos and it only takes a very few minutes, if that.

I would only want to have to do that if & when TiVo tells me that if I don't do it by a certain date, that I will lose some recordings (or others won't record).
Catch-22. You won't get that warning unless you're doing it already. Solution: do it already! :)

Then, and only then, will I decide if I want to exercise the option of hastening my viewing and subsequent deleting, or... limiting my upcoming recordings
So, what we're dealing with is willful slothfulness, right?

It's "clamoured".

[vegaspl]

HTH:
"slothfulness"??? Forgive my ignorance. I trust it is not an insult???


BTW..w/ close to 700 hrs at my disposal, I WOULD have many recordings to adjust expiration dates. That is if I DIDN'T have most all as SUID!
Which I wouldn't do so much of,if I had more instant info on when I am filling up.

[martinp13]

No, not really an insult. Just a way of saying you're deliberately not watching stuff and letting it pile up.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by martinp13
No, not really an insult. Just a way of saying you're deliberately not watching stuff and letting it pile up.

NO! Not "deliberately", but "Necessarily". The purpose of so many TiVo's with so much storage is to be able to "Watch WHAT I want, When I want"

I have been "Time-Shifting" in a major way, long before MOST of you ever even heard of the expression! (Over 20 years)

During the Network Season, we watch mostly within a short time frame of the original broadcast via SP's.

However,all during the year and during the Network Rerun Season, we are accumulating "semi-archiving" theatrical movies off Premium channels, PPV, Netflix DVD's, etc.

Those are viewed mostly during the Summer. However, there is quite a backlog built up which is constantly being added to and reduced.

Now, if that is what you consider "slothfulness"??? I plead guilty:confused:

[BrettStah]

I think most folks understand that to use the current Tivo software to its fullest, using the expiration system as HTH does is probably best. However this is the suggestions forum, right? :)

I fall into the "slothful" category... I've slapped extra capacity into the main Tivos I use, and keep an eye on suggestions as a rough gauge of free space, and the To Do List to see what's coming up. It would make my life a little easier if Tivo would show me the date and time it'll run out of space... that's all I really need 99% of the time.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
I think most folks understand that to use the current Tivo software to its fullest, using the expiration system as HTH does is probably best. However this is the suggestions forum, right? :)

I fall into the "slothful" category... I've slapped extra capacity into the main Tivos I use, and keep an eye on suggestions as a rough gauge of free space, and the To Do List to see what's coming up. It would make my life a little easier if Tivo would show me the date and time it'll run out of space... that's all I really need 99% of the time.

Fellow Slothfulee....;) Naturally I agree with all you have said EXCEPT...

1) It would make my life a LOT easier if Tivo would show me the date and time it'll run out of space...

2) I refuse to use the "Suggestions" gimmick in "AUTO-Record"

A) My NP lists are long enough

B) Although I know its not SUPPOSED to happen, I have heard of too many instances where Suggestions deleted wanted recordings.

[HTH]

Originally posted by vegaspl
During the Network Season, we watch mostly within a short time frame of the original broadcast via SP's.

However,all during the year and during the Network Rerun Season, we are accumulating "semi-archiving" theatrical movies off Premium channels, PPV, Netflix DVD's, etc.

Those are viewed mostly during the Summer. However, there is quite a backlog built up which is constantly being added to and reduced.
Sounds to me that those recordings are perfect examples of recordings that should be marked SUID, which you'll only have to set that way once. And by having even only one program not marked as SUID but also not expired (of a size commensurate with the size of your typical one-shot recordings), TiVo will give you information on when your capacity gets low interactively.

The software isn't really designed to be a VOD library. Those using it as such have to accept that and not expect the software to be redesigned to cater to that purpose, to which it can only be put to via hacks that really aren't officially endorsed (i.e. massive storage expansion). I'd say your usage pattern is more of creating a VOD library than the mere timeshifting it is designed for. If you're going to use it like that, you're going to have to adjust your usage patterns, including making most of what you're archiving be SUID, and accept that your usage patterns do not match the majority of TiVo's market.

Maybe TiVo will put out a product later that is designed to be an in-home VOD system. Or maybe they'll offer a separate VOD software package you can have installed instead of the usual TiVo software, for a price, and designed such that nothing deletes automatically and there's no such thing as expiry, or if deletions occur, it is through a weighted system where recordings are assigned an importance (which may be adjusted by you through methods both manual and automatic) and only recordings of lesser importance would be replaced by those of greater importance by algorithm.

In short, "Give that man a special code base."

Damn, now I expect after composing this message that all my unread messages are going to be marked as read again.

[rbird]

Originally posted by HTH


The software isn't really designed to be a VOD library. That's funny, my TiVo window shade says "TiVo. TV your way". I think all we're asking for is for them to try to live up to that slogan. :)

Bob

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by rbird
That's funny, my TiVo window shade says "TiVo. TV your way". I think all we're asking for is for them to try to live up to that slogan. :)

Bob

Here, Here Bob.... I echo your sentiments exactly!!

I never could, and still can't understand, why HTH is so adamently AGAINST what the overwhelming majority are FOR!.:confused:

Sorry, HTH...this is not a "Personal Attack on you" just expressing my confusion. I do respect your right to your opinion. Just WHY so insistent??
What would hurt YOU, if the OBVIOUS "overwhelming majority" were to get what we are clam-mering for?? Nobody would force you to use it.

There are a lot of things on TiVo I personally find useless, or a "Gimmick". I just don't use them.

BTW...you said <....Sounds to me that those recordings are perfect examples of recordings that should be marked SUID, which you'll only have to set that way once. And by having even only one program not marked as SUID but also not expired (of a size commensurate with the size of your typical one-shot recordings), TiVo will give you information on when your capacity gets low interactively. >

FYI...I DO MARK MOST OF MY RECORDINGS.."SUID", but considering my overall capacity, I can do that! I do still have many that are not SUID. What about most of those who do not have the luxury of extra storage capacity?
If I feel a FSI combined with a specified deletion date would be a "useful convenience" for ME, then I suspect MOST would also.

[GambleR]

Although many MIPS have been expended on this already, I will add --
Another two cents:

Some indication of TiVo capacity utilization and its effect on program retention is fundimental to the usage of the equipment. I was frankly shocked that this was not part of the deal (I am a very new TiVoer).

I just upgraded my system in order to satisfy my wife's gripe that shows she wanted to watch were being deleted 'too soon'. More space will help but it does not solve the fundamental issue of helping me to manage my program space.

Maybe I am ignorant but here is what I would do if I were king of the product plan.

1. on Now Showing display the percent of capacity used by each program in a simple column. Show a total of capacity used.

2. on Now Showing display a projected deletion date

a. allow sorting by capacity or deletion date
b. allow reordering by deletion date (i.e. bump a program up or down the retention stack)
c. or give me a button / click that lets me easily add 48 hrs to the program retention

The above is simple, easy to understand (I don't care if you think it is misleading :eek: ), and useful to me. This doesn't have to be rocket science. People adjust to information and experiences over time and will develop a feel for how the system behaves. We have had the experience but we lack the information presented to allow for this adjustment.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by GambleR
Although many MIPS have been expended on this already, I will add --
Another two cents:

Some indication of TiVo capacity utilization and its effect on program retention is fundimental to the usage of the equipment. I was frankly shocked that this was not part of the deal (I am a very new TiVoer).

I just upgraded my system in order to satisfy my wife's gripe that shows she wanted to watch were being deleted 'too soon'. More space will help but it does not solve the fundamental issue of helping me to manage my program space.

Maybe I am ignorant but here is what I would do if I were king of the product plan.

1. on Now Showing display the percent of capacity used by each program in a simple column. Show a total of capacity used.

2. on Now Showing display a projected deletion date

a. allow sorting by capacity or deletion date
b. allow reordering by deletion date (i.e. bump a program up or down the retention stack)
c. or give me a button / click that lets me easily add 48 hrs to the program retention

The above is simple, easy to understand (I don't care if you think it is misleading :eek: ), and useful to me. This doesn't have to be rocket science. People adjust to information and experiences over time and will develop a feel for how the system behaves. We have had the experience but we lack the information presented to allow for this adjustment.

Nice to hear from a new voice (especially if it advocates some sort of FSI):rolleyes:

I agree with your ideas as stated, except I am not too clear on number 2).

I feel a "single line" statement indicating the projected upcoming overall deletion date based on NP AND TDL. would eliminate the need to SCAN to determine which particular recordings are soon vulnerable. until that time is close.

[rbird]

Originally posted by GambleR
2. on Now Showing display a projected deletion date

a. allow sorting by capacity or deletion date
If you're new, you might not be aware of this. Software 3.0 has a "sort Now Playing" hidden feature. Pressing Slow-0-Record-ThumbsUp while in the NP screen activates it, then pressing "2" sorts by expiration date. It's tremendously useful to me. Of course, I'd love it even more if they would revamp the entire expiration concept. There's no reason for everything to "expire" after two days by default. In fact, it's just plain silly (but I beat that horse to death months ago and won't go there again right now).

I bet I watch less than 10% of my recorded programs before that two days is up. Yet another failing of the "TiVo. TV Your Way" mantra.

Bob

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by Samsara
Below are some of the previous threads on this subject, but if you have something to add, please use this thread.

..........[/url]

SAMSARA..

I am so glad you started this Poll!!!

Maybe now some of those dissenter's who have been so persistently insisting that they know what we want and need, will see the numbers and realize just how much in the minority they are!!!:D

19 to 1 (Why can't TiVo see those numbers and finally submit to our wishes (demands):confused:

[HTH]

Originally posted by vegaspl
Here, Here Bob.... I echo your sentiments exactly!!
That should be "Hear! Hear!", as in "Listen to what this man is saying with which I agree!" The idiom has nothing to do with the location known as "here".

What would hurt YOU, if the OBVIOUS "overwhelming majority" were to get what we are clam-mering for?? Nobody would force you to use it.
"Clamouring" not "clam-mering". It has absolutely nothing to do with "clamming up". I tried to be more subtle in my correction on this before.

My point it is that it is redundant, and has been demonstrated on several instances to be confusing by people who have manually counted up what they've recorded and still can't figure out why they can't schedule a movie next week. We have people deleting recordings that will have already been deleted by the time the show they want to schedule will air. Giving a FSI would only cost TiVo more in calls to their help line from users who, with misleading numbers they think will back them up, complaining that their TiVo's capacity is less than advertised.

And the fact that there is a system in place to inform you when capacity gets low; you only have to use it. But then that's probably one of those things you personally find useless or a "Gimmick" and you choose not to use it, only to make noise that you want something else.

FYI...I DO MARK MOST OF MY RECORDINGS.."SUID", but considering my overall capacity, I can do that! I do still have many that are not SUID. What about most of those who do not have the luxury of extra storage capacity?
I'd expect such people would be more regularly exposed to TiVo's existing method of communicating remaining capacity and get useful information out of it, that they don't have the opportunity to acquire a large number of expired recordings in a neglectful manner.

And I'm so very annoyed by people who latch onto an advertising slogan and demand from it that TiVo perform for them when they refuse to perform for themselves. Sorry, but TiVo is not Turing-complete; it does not have an infinite tape upon which it can record data forever without any loss. Such a machine does not exist.

If I feel a FSI combined with a specified deletion date would be a "useful convenience" for ME, then I suspect MOST would also.
I would not presume to speak for the majority ("most"), and neither, I feel, should you.

[GambleR]

Originally posted by rbird
If you're new, you might not be aware of this. Software 3.0 has a "sort Now Playing" hidden feature. Pressing Slow-0-Record-ThumbsUp while in the NP screen activates it, then pressing "2" sorts by expiration date. It's tremendously useful to me. Of course, I'd love it even more if they would revamp the entire expiration concept. There's no reason for everything to "expire" after two days by default. In fact, it's just plain silly (but I beat that horse to death months ago and won't go there again right now).

I bet I watch less than 10% of my recorded programs before that two days is up. Yet another failing of the "TiVo. TV Your Way" mantra.

Bob

I don't have V 3.0 yet. :(
I am a DTiVo user and understand that if I am REALLY, REALLY GOOD then I may expect it this Fall.

Things expire after two days? Wow. Why can't you change the default expiration duration? It seems like there should be a panel that allows you to configure some of these obvious things. After all it is a COMPUTER.

[GambleR]

Originally posted by vegaspl


Nice to hear from a new voice (especially if it advocates some sort of FSI):rolleyes:

I agree with your ideas as stated, except I am not too clear on number 2).

I feel a "single line" statement indicating the projected upcoming overall deletion date based on NP AND TDL. would eliminate the need to SCAN to determine which particular recordings are soon vulnerable. until that time is close.

On number 2).

Basically I thought there had been enough discussion on deletion date. I don't care how it is computed (I understand that the TiVo should basically know when something is projected to go bye-bye). My assumption is that for the basic user who has, say, 35 hrs of capacity that their overall deletion date will necessitate some sort of program management intervention. I know that whenever I look at Now Showing that I am thinking of program management and priorities. While I am thinking of this I would like to have some more tool than just the clear button or SUID.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by HTH

That should be "Hear! Hear!", as in "Listen to what this man is saying with which I agree!" The idiom has nothing to do with the location known as "here".


"Clamouring" not "clam-mering". It has absolutely nothing to do with "clamming up". I tried to be more subtle in my correction on this before.

My point it is that it is redundant, and has been demonstrated on several instances to be confusing by people who have manually counted up what they've recorded and still can't figure out why they can't schedule a movie next week. We have people deleting recordings that will have already been deleted by the time the show they want to schedule will air. Giving a FSI would only cost TiVo more in calls to their help line from users who, with misleading numbers they think will back them up, complaining that their TiVo's capacity is less than advertised.

And the fact that there is a system in place to inform you when capacity gets low; you only have to use it. But then that's probably one of those things you personally find useless or a "Gimmick" and you choose not to use it, only to make noise that you want something else.


I'd expect such people would be more regularly exposed to TiVo's existing method of communicating remaining capacity and get useful information out of it, that they don't have the opportunity to acquire a large number of expired recordings in a neglectful manner.

And I'm so very annoyed by people who latch onto an advertising slogan and demand from it that TiVo perform for them when they refuse to perform for themselves. Sorry, but TiVo is not Turing-complete; it does not have an infinite tape upon which it can record data forever without any loss. Such a machine does not exist.


I would not presume to speak for the majority ("most"), and neither, I feel, should you.

OK HTH.....I will desperately attempt to avoid getting personal here, but....


1) Your need to correct my possible misuse of a word or two, is very indicative of how you have this urgency to be contrary. ;)
Wow, I'll bet you can find a few to feed on right there:rolleyes:

2) I think this obsession with the feeling that any kind of FSI (or version thereof) would cause many calls to TiVo CS is definitely a "presumption" on your part. All that need be is an instruction that the "Upcoming Deletion Date" is not only an estimate, but that it includes the CURRENT TDL.

Also, does the word "Disclaimer" ring a bell.

3) Obviously, TiVo DOES NOT have a method in place to warn you of when the capacity gets low. At least not one that is easily discern able, and does not let you know "in advance"

4) Finally, as far as my "presuming" to speak for the majority. Just look at the numbers!!!!! 19-1. Of course, you can't presume to speak for the majority, as you are obviously in the "Minority" on this subject.

BTW..... I will be using the "SpellCheck" (as I almost always do), to try to keep your corrections to a minimum.

[phone1]

Originally posted by vegaspl
Finally, as far as my "presuming" to speak for the majority. Just look at the numbers!!!!! 19-1. Of course, you can't presume to speak for the majority, as you are obviously in the "Minority" on this subject.19 to 1? I voted for option three: NOT IMPORTANT. Would I look at it? Sure, if it was there, but I don't feel my life would be forever changed.

Please don't lump those of us who voted that option in with those of you who feel this is a "must have" feature. There are many other features and improvements that TiVo should devote resources to first. That changes the number to 3 to 1 as of this post.

[rbird]

Even 3-1 is quite a healthy majority.

This has GOT to be right up there at the top of the list of most requested features.

Of course even I have to admit that 318 total votes is not really representative of the nearly 500,000 Tivo owners.

Bob

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by phone1
19 to 1? I voted for option three: NOT IMPORTANT. ........... That changes the number to 3 to 1 as of this post.

"3 to 1" ????

I know it's been a long time since I took math in school, but it couldn't have changed that much. Am I missing something? :confused:

Even putting aside the votes for number 3, I still come up with 15 to 1 !

Look at the numbers:

"Important...." Numbers 1 & 2 = 243 75%
"Won't Use...." Number 4 = 16 5 %

Anyway you look at it ... 243 to 16 or 75% to 5% is 15 to 1 :eek:

[phone1]

Fuzzy math?????

Originally posted by vegaspl
Finally, as far as my "presuming" to speak for the majority. Just look at the numbers!!!!! 19-1. Originally posted by vegaspl
Anyway you look at it ... 243 to 16 or 75% to 5% is 15 to 1 :eek: :eek: indeed! Seems you have many ways of looking at it. First you counted option 3 voters as pro FSI to get 19-1, then you just ignored them altogether for your last ratio. Here's the correct calculation:

Option 1 - important - 23
Option 2 - semi-important - 221

Total - 244

Option 3 - not important - 60
Option 4 - don't want it - 16

Total 76

244/76 = 3.21 to 1

[vegaspl]

I beg to differ...

Option 3 (as stated by previous poster) should not be lumped in with those pro FSI. I concur.

However, by all indications it would seem to represent those who are (for all intents and purposes) NUETRAL!

Therefore they shouldn't be added to the negative side either!!!

[martinp13]

All a matter of how you view the data.

I tend to lump Options 2, 3, and 4 together in these polls, since those are the people who don't want to pay for a feature. Option 1 (the paying group) only accounts for roughly 7% here. I don't count 7% as a "majority", and I wouldn't rush to code something for that small percentage of users.

World peace is a great thing, but I'd still vote "It's important but I wouldn't pay extra for it." on its poll. :)

[phone1]

Originally posted by vegaspl
I beg to differ...

Option 3 (as stated by previous poster) should not be lumped in with those pro FSI. I concur.

However, by all indications it would seem to represent those who are (for all intents and purposes) NUETRAL!

Therefore they shouldn't be added to the negative side either!!! Don't presume to speak for me - I voted option 3, and do NOT want TiVo spending time on FSI when there are other more important features and improvements to be addressed.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by phone1
Don't presume to speak for me - I voted option 3, and do NOT want TiVo spending time on FSI when there are other more important features and improvements to be addressed.


Where did you get the Idea that I "Presumed" anything????

Anyway, if you feel THAT strongly, I would think your vote should have been under number 4.

Please notice that I used the term "....think..." not "definately should have"

[phone1]

Why do people think they'll make their point more effectively with extra punctuation????????

I think it's just like shouting!!!!!!!!!!!

(Or maybe they just have a sticky keyboard. :p )

[HTH]

There's something definitely presumed here, and that is that people who use the TiVo Community Forum are representative of TiVo users in general. Beside's the sample bias, the sample size is not statistically significant.

[rbird]

Originally posted by HTH
There's something definitely presumed here, and that is that people who use the TiVo Community Forum are representative of TiVo users in general. Beside's the sample bias, the sample size is not statistically significant. Somebody hasn't been paying attention. Just a few posts up from your post: Originally posted by rbird
Of course even I have to admit that 318 total votes is not really representative of the nearly 500,000 Tivo owners.

Bob

[TreborPugly]

Originally posted by martinp13
All a matter of how you view the data.

I tend to lump Options 2, 3, and 4 together in these polls, since those are the people who don't want to pay for a feature. Option 1 (the paying group) only accounts for roughly 7% here.


Given that the features we discuss in this forum are what we'd like to see in the new releases of software, saying we wouldn't pay extra for it does not mean we don't pay for it. We pay a subscription fee which goes to providing the information AND improving the product. I expect a constant improvement in the Tivo software. Features that directly relate to the basic use of the equipment should not cost extra. Features that go above and beyond the normal Tivo use, like MP3 playing or caller id on your TV are things that we should expect to pay extra for.

I voted for #2, and I do expect to pay for it, just not to pay Extra for it.

Treb.

[HTH]

Originally posted by rbird
Somebody hasn't been paying attention.
My apologies. The browser on the ProGear LX didn't defaults to such a tiny font size, I must have missed it despite looking to make sure I wasn't being redundant. :o

And I'm particularly embarassed about that inappropriate apostrophe. :o

Still, I expect my comment about selection bias to stand independent of the sample size. :)

[pauly666]

Just gimme a "percentage used" indicator.

To answer the next persons question, "Does that include Suggestions that TiVo has recorded?" I answer, "Is it using my hard disk space? Yes? Then..."

Just gimme a "percentage used" indicator.

If, after delivering that, TiVo decides to get more ambitious, great, add extra screens somewhere that give more details. But, for now:

Just gimme a "percentage used" indicator.

Please, please, please!

If you don't know what a percentage is, go and get your high school diploma; I'm amazed you even know how set up a Season Pass.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by pauly666
Just gimme a "percentage used" indicator.

To answer the next persons question, "Does that include Suggestions that TiVo has recorded?" I answer, "Is it using my hard disk space? Yes? Then..."

........

Now WHY would you want (Need) it to include Suggestions? For all intents and purposes, in effect they DO NOT take up any Storage Space.

As far as determining AVAILABLE space after seeing the figure for "percentage used", suggestions do not infringe on A/S since that space is continuously and freely available for any immediate and/or future recordings.

If anything, better it should include the TDL. Actually an indicator showing both would be even better.

[pauly666]

Originally posted by vegaspl


Now WHY would you want (Need) it to include Suggestions? For all intents and purposes, in effect they DO NOT take up any Storage Space.


So I can decide if I want to keep my recorded suggestion, and do a save until... or let TiVo delete it as needed.

It's not hard - if its on my hard disk, tell me what percentage of space I have used/left.

[gjtaylor]

They already tell you the capacity for the Tivo in each of the available quality settings, why not just put in parenthesis behind that the amount that is currently free at each of those settings? If they are worried about a disclaimer, then simple make it one menu item deaper with the disclaimer shown before getting the the page that shows you the remaining free space.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by gjtaylor
They already tell you the capacity for the Tivo in each of the available quality settings, why not just put in parenthesis behind that the amount that is currently free at each of those settings? If they are worried about a disclaimer, then simple make it one menu item deaper with the disclaimer shown before getting the the page that shows you the remaining free space.

Good Idea gttaylor!
A "Fresh" "New" Wrinkle (As far as how they should display it). And from a "Newbie" to this forum.

Now if TiVo would just provide it?

;)

[gjtaylor]

Those are the ways that I came up with to implement the suggestion. I figgure you have to do more than just complain about it not being there. how I would implement the option if I were writing the function. I've been asking for a "Power Toys" version for quite a while, but just recently discovered this board.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by gjtaylor
Those are the ways that I came up with to implement the suggestion. I figgure you have to do more than just complain about it not being there. how I would implement the option if I were writing the function. I've been asking for a "Power Toys" version for quite a while, but just recently discovered this board.

Your being new to this board, you are probably not aware of the numerous request (suggestions) made on this subject. None of which have produced any results from TiVo. My prior response to you was just commenting on your suggested way to implement a form of FSI as being one I haven't seen before..

Unfortunately, I wouldn't put too much hope in seeing any results:mad:

[BrettStah]

Paul, how quickly you forget...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13941
:)

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Paul, how quickly you forget...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13941
:)

"Quickly"???

That was almost a year ago. I even forgot what I wrote in that thread.
See what happens when you get on in age:mad: ;)

I haven't been as active on this subject as in the past. Mainly because of my pessimism & frustration with the realism that "it ain't gonna happen"

[kchristensen]

And two months later, here's another off the wall suggestion about the free space indicator.

Everyone has watched the weather report where they give their 5 day forecast or their 7 day forecast. Have TiVo do the same thing for space utilization. Nobody expects the weather report to be 100% accurate. In fact, we're glad if they can get the current day right so we know if we should take a coat, or an umbrella. If they're wrong, we joke about how nice it must be to get paid to be wrong so often.

So, what's the likelihood that I'll be able to record programs all week? Is there something I should do this weekend to prevent problems during the week?

[Hunter Green]

Hey, that's a good idea.

[TreborPugly]

Yes, folks, Monday looks like a record Recording day! The forecast calls for 14 hours of new recordings!

The Recording will slow down on Tuesday, with only 5 hours expected, but it looks like 4 hours of programing will be deleted so you better take your SUID's out of the closet...

And for those of you with special plans this weekend, look out! It looks like we're in for a big clash between Season pass items and SUID's, and something's gotta go, or we'll just have to skip recording some of your favorite shows

[mmcowan]

It is truly sad that TiVo hasn't put this feature in. This is a no-brainer, super simple thing to add. I'm sure that one of their programmers could whip this out in a couple of hours. Heck, I'll drive up to Alviso and do it for them. :)

Perhaps they're worried about support calls? I bet they get more support calls now from people wondering how to find out how much drive space they have left!

"On Windows, I just double-click on 'My Computer' and it's right there, but I can't seem to find it on my Tivo. Please help me find it."

Like everyone has said here, this doesn't have to be complicated. We don't need (but many would like) a full statistical breakdown of all of the data on the disk, but just percentages of "user programs", "TiVo suggestions" and "unused space". C'mon already.

Perhaps something like:
http://matt.moviequote.net/space.gif

[BrettStah]

mmcowan, you're right... one of Tivo's programmers could easily whip it out quickly. So the question is why they haven't?

My belief is that the Tivo developers feel that current free space is not, by itself, that helpful to most Tivo users, and could in fact cause confusion for some Tivo users.

Here's one example... let's say your pie chart pops up on my Tivo tomorrow morning.

My wife sees it first, and thinks "Cool, 12% free - I'll schedule that 4 movie marathon of Sean Connery movies that starts tonight... there's plenty of room to fit them without losing anything already recorded."

A couple of hours later, I happen to be in front of the TV, and see the same exact pie chart (since nothing has recorded since my wife's actions). I say, "Cool! I'll schedule a few basketball games coming on today... there's plenty of room to fit them without losing anything already recorded."

The next day, we find out that 5 hours of previously recorded shows were deleted in order to fit the basketball games and Sean Connery movies.

So what went wrong? We looked at the _current_ free space and made assumptions on it (pretty logical, since that works well for PCs right?) However, without taking into account scheduled recordings (aka To Do List) it's not always safe to make these assumptions.

Now, what if Tivo decided to provide us with a simple indicator that would say something like this:

Your Tivo will need to delete one or more shows on Monday 1/6 at 10:00 AM to make room for new recordings.

And as you add new things to be recorded, and delete existing recordings from Now Playing, that indicator will be updated accordingly.

Personally, I think that it is possible (from a hardware perspective) to not only provide a single indicator like this, but to actually do this for each recording in Now Playing not marked with the green dot (save until I delete). So you'd see: This show will be deleted on Friday, 2/6 at 8:00 PM to make room for 'The Sopranos'. Others disagree though. :)

[Endless]

Tivo already provides the feature of telling you when a program will need to be deleted earlier than it is already scheduled to be deleted.

To make it more descriptive the pie chart could use the 5 tivo recording states
1> New recording,
2> old recording
3> can be deleted recording (! recording)
4> until I delete recording
5> tivo suggestion recording
and a 6th
6> free space
Only showing those that are in use on a given machine.


The usage indicator feature is present on Ultimate TV, and they just kept it simple, a color coded bar with the usage/free space.


The discouraging thing about this thread is no indiciation of any direction on this. Yes we're working on, or no we're not because of X. If there was an X we could respond with suggestions.


For those with 80hr units, or upgraded units knowing how close you are to full is very useful. The indicator you can get by enabling suggestions to be recorded is a little lame, if I let tivo record a bunch of suggestions til the tivo is full, the menu speed gets insanely slow. And then when you do get the point to a full tivo, you're stuck counting 80+ shows to know if you're close.

Of course another solution to this would be for Tivo to keep the time that a program is estimated to be deleted. Right now you get 'can be deleted after this date' but there is nothing on there that says this will be deleted at 8pm 1/3/03 as competitive products also have. (they have their own limitation that that time data sometimes takes a few minutes to update if you make large changes to a todo list)

[BrettStah]

mmcowan, I forgot to take into account the suggestions with your pie chart. Most of the time my free space is close to 0%, and so I tend to equate free space with suggestions in my head. But I think my examples still hold true.

[dpsjolly]

Come on Tivo - lets do it.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
mmcowan, you're right... one of Tivo's programmers could easily whip it out quickly. So the question is why they haven't?

My belief is that the Tivo developers feel that current free space is not, by itself, that helpful to most Tivo users, and could in fact cause confusion for some Tivo users.

Here's one example... let's say your pie chart pops up on my Tivo tomorrow morning.

My wife sees it first, and thinks "Cool, 12% free - I'll schedule that 4 movie marathon of Sean Connery movies that starts tonight... there's plenty of room to fit them without losing anything already recorded."

A couple of hours later, I happen to be in front of the TV, and see the same exact pie chart (since nothing has recorded since my wife's actions). I say, "Cool! I'll schedule a few basketball games coming on today... there's plenty of room to fit them without losing anything already recorded."

The next day, we find out that 5 hours of previously recorded shows were deleted in order to fit the basketball games and Sean Connery movies.

So what went wrong? We looked at the _current_ free space and made assumptions on it (pretty logical, since that works well for PCs right?) However, without taking into account scheduled recordings (aka To Do List) it's not always safe to make these assumptions.



Very Simple!!!

Take "Suggestions" out of the Pie Chart and replace with "Committed" IOW ...the TDL Programs.

[BrettStah]

Paul, if you did that, wouldn't "Committed" almost always completely take up all available space over time?

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Paul, if you did that, wouldn't "Committed" almost always completely take up all available space over time?

I think you may have misunderstood me. Or.... I wasn't clear enough.

It is "suggestions" that would almost always completely take up all available space over time. That's why that figure would be kinda useless.

What I mean't by "Commited" was the total of all the upcoming scheduled programs (TDL) for all or a portion of the TDL to a projected date.

IOW..... When I plan to travel, I determine when I will be back. Does what is in the NP together with whats in my TDL (to the return date) exceed my total space capability?

Example:

Todays date is Jan 1

I plan to return on January 8

My Capacity in total is 100 hrs

My NP at 1/1 is 60 hrs

My TDL is committed to:

8 hrs on 1/2

10 hrs on 1/3

2 hrs on 1/4

10 hrs on 1/5

3 hrs on 1/6

2 hrs on 1/7

1 hr on 1/8

4 hrs on 1/9

The above indicates that since I will not be watching and deleting anything while I am away, I had better start watching when I get back or some NP programs will start deleting to make room for the TDL of 1/10 and/or some of the TDL programs schedule for 1/10 will not record.

Note: For S/A' Unless all recordings are at one recording quality The hours indicated in the above are the calculated equivalents.

When anticipating Travel, I have been doing the above calculations manually for quite some time. It's frustrating...as TiVo could so easily do it for me.

[BrettStah]

Oh, gotcha... you're suggesting that they show the number of net hours scheduled to be recorded each day, whereas I suggested they just tell me when it'll fill up. I can see why knowing how much per day would be handy though.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Oh, gotcha... you're suggesting that they show the number of net hours scheduled to be recorded each day, whereas I suggested they just tell me when it'll fill up. I can see why knowing how much per day would be handy though.

Not necessarily "Show" the net hours each day. Just the "TOTAL" hours (or %) that will be used at each upcoming day.

The example I had given was just for clarification of how the desired result to be shown will be arrived at.

However, this would be more of what I suspect would be shown:

Date Hrs/% Used Hrs/% Remaining

Currently: 1/1 60 hrs / 60 % 40 hrs / 40 %

8 hrs on 1/2 68hrs / 68 % 32 hrs / 32 %


10 hrs on 1/3 78 hrs / 78 % 40 hrs / 40 %


2 hrs on 1/4 80 hrs / 80 % 20 hrs / 20 %


10 hrs on 1/5 90 hrs / 90 % 10 hrs / 10%


3 hrs on 1/6 93 hrs / 93 % 7 hrs / 7%

2 hrs on 1/7 95 hrs / 95 % 5 hrs / 5%

1 hr on 1/8 96 hrs / 96 % 4 hrs / 4%

4 hrs on 1/9 100 hrs / 100 % 0 hrs / 0%

[Deven]

What's wrong with the "7-day forecast" idea? A series of vertical bar graphs arrayed horizontally across the screen should convey all the key information quickly, and solve the problem of upcoming recordings.

Heck, if nothing else, we should at LEAST be able to get a one-line summary in the System Information screen that says the number of hours/minutes are actually USED in Now Playing at the moment. That would save people from adding up the times manually.

[rbird]

Originally posted by vegaspl
What I mean't by "Commited" was the total of all the upcoming scheduled programs (TDL) for all or a portion of the TDL to a projected date.

IOW..... When I plan to travel, I determine when I will be back. Does what is in the NP together with whats in my TDL (to the return date) exceed my total space capability? YES! This is what I had envisioned when I created my pie chart mockup screen well over a year ago.

Bob

[BrettStah]

My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days?

Otherwise, I'm fine with the idea, as long as it's easy to grasp at a glance what's happening, and most importantly when I'll run out of space. I envision something like the following graph being something that would be extremely helpful:

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by BrettStah
My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days?

Otherwise, I'm fine with the idea, as long as it's easy to grasp at a glance what's happening, and most importantly when I'll run out of space. I envision something like the following graph being something that would be extremely helpful:


Brett:

I Love it:up:

The graph you linked to is absolutely all I would need:cool:

Now if we could just get TiVo it do it:confused:

[BrettStah]

Well, I know it's sort of a small thing to hang on to, but not long before RB left TiVo he did say, in so many words, that our discussion/debate on this issue was now moot. Based on that, and the fact that they obviously decided since the beginning not to add a simple current free space indicator, leads me to believe that we'll get something closer to what we're pushing for...

[martinp13]

Hmmm... I always took RB's comment to mean that they would never add a free-space indicator. Since we as a group can never agree on any aspects of an FSI, it's just too hard to figure out what is "correct". As I've said before on this issue, I hope I'm wrong about never getting an FSI of SOME sort, but I think I'm right. :(

[rbird]

Originally posted by BrettStah
My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days? If you'll check my mock FSI screen again, I believe you'll find a blue wiener just waiting for your input. ;)

Bob

[Deven]

Brett,

Your mockup is similar to the "forecast" I was just talking about, in that it's a series of bar graphs, one per day. Of course, you have to pick a point in time to represent for the day; midnight would be an obvious choice, although 6 AM the next morning might be better. I guess I'd also add a "current" graph for right now, then continue with today's date (prediction for the end of the day), and as many days forward as makes sense. Yes, 7 days was arbitrary, but I meant showing EACH of those 7 days, not just 7 days out. You could go as far as the data allows (12-14 days) or limit it to 7 for consistency...

As for the look of each bar, I wouldn't do it quite the same way -- I'd have them vertical still, but each bar would be the same height (representing 100%), with several dividing lines and different colors for the breakdown -- sort of like a pie chart, but in a vertical bar form instead. It's hard to say exactly which categories should be shown, but I'd say definitely start with green at the bottom representing SUID programs, then maybe blue (or some other neutral color) for unexpired programs, then yellow for expired (but not deleted) programs, then another color (black? brown? striped?) for Suggestions, finally a last color for truly free space that's not allocated at all. (I suppose you could just end the graph without filling in that top segment, alternatively.)

I would be inclined to put diagonal stripes across the free space and Suggestions segments, since those are available for new recordings. Actually, come to think of it, it might look prettier (and less confusing) to use fewer colors. Suppose you keep solid green for SUID programs, and use solid yellow for requested programs that aren't SUID, then striped yellow for the expired programs, and striped black/brown/blue for the Suggestions? The stripes would basically identify what's available for recording, while keeping the graph pretty simple...

How does that sound?

[BrettStah]

That'd work for me!

The main things I'd prefer would be:

1) It's easy, at a glance, for my parents to understand what it means. So complex charts would be out. (Your chart doesn't sound complex to me).

2) It is always accurate based on the current data available, even if it means a dreaded "Please Wait..." message.

3) It shows me, at a glance, when I'm going to start losing something. At least the day and time.

[Deven]

(1) I hope such a graph would be easy enough for just about anyone to understand -- the amount of space "really" used is the solid part, the striped part is used but available to record over, and the extra bit above the striped part is not used at all. You could inverse the meaning of the stripes and have the stuff that ISN'T reclaimable be striped instead, but I think that would be uglier.

(2) I wouldn't want to see a "Please Wait..." message, but I wouldn't mind if each bar appeared individually, and it took a few seconds for each to pop up. (The "current" bar should pop up almost instantly, since it only needs to scan Now Playing.) Until all the bars are displayed, you'd want a message at the bottom of the screen to indicate that it's not done displaying. You should still be able to leave the screen without waiting for the entire thing to be drawn -- if you don't need the forecast for 7 days from now, why should you have to wait while it's being calculated? (Anyway, it's probably the same work it has to do when checking for low disk space when scheduling a recording, and that only takes a few seconds normally...)

(3) I have no problem with the message at the bottom of the screen indicating the time/date when it's expected to run out. That's useful additional information.

(4) I would NOT represent the graph in hours. With VBR, that's uncertain anyhow. I'd make it a simple 0-100% scale -- the user can always estimate from the percentage the approximate number of hours it represents. I don't know if it would be good or bad to label the numeric percentage of each segment in the graph -- apart from additional clutter, it might be better to make the user estimate visually to force a little error into the process so the user doesn't expect perfect precision in predicting the number of hours...

(5) On the other hand, I would like to be able to see exactly how many hours and minutes are actually in use -- I'm not sure how to reconcile this. Maybe just show HH:MM under each graph for the total of the unstriped area, that would probably be good enough...

Of course, even if we can finally come to a consensus after all this time, could we convince TiVo to implement it?

[TreborPugly]

Originally posted by Deven


Of course, even if we can finally come to a consensus after all this time, could we convince TiVo to implement it?

Heh. Consensus? Among whom? The 5 people who still think this is an active topic? :rolleyes: :D

If Tivo does eventually move FSI up high enough on the list to get implemented. They might look back at this discussion for some ideas, but in the end, they'll sit down and decide amongst themselves what is useful, usable, and implementable. Then they'll give it some silly name like iSpace or iIndicator... :D :D

Treb.

[Lightn]

Has anyone every seen the space usage graph on the tivoweb page (http://tivo.lightn.org/)? In the Original Branch section, there is an example space usage graph, which was generated from my actual tivo data about 2 years ago on version 1.3 software.

Unfortunately with VBR and some changes in tivo's scheduling algorithm, it wouldn't be as easy to do any more. But in the new tivoweb there is some pretty good information about space used in the info module.

[chq]

I once owned a 1972 chevy Nova, nothing special, but it had a little thing that told me how much gas I had. Why can't this little linux box tell me how much free space (gas) I have left?

"Come on guys, it's all ball bearings"
-chevy chase as Fletch:)

[HTH]

Originally posted by Lightn
Has anyone every seen the space usage graph on the tivoweb page (http://tivo.lightn.org/)? In the Original Branch section, there is an example space usage graph, which was generated from my actual tivo data about 2 years ago on version 1.3 software. Yeah, I've been meaning to sit down and re-massage that graph into how I envisioned my "clogged pipe" model. Any chance you still have the raw data?

[rbird]

Originally posted by Lightn
But in the new tivoweb there is some pretty good information about space used in the info module. Since the thread has been bumped....YES, I love this feature. Between the Info page and the "Deleted Items" page under User Interface, I can get a good bit of the information I'm looking for.

For those who don't use TivoWeb, the Deleted Items page shows programs which have been deleted but not yet overwritten (and therefore may be "undeleted"). It's like using the suggestions to gauge free space, except much more accurate!

Bob

[rogerb]

May have already been said...

Not just a single free space indicator please.

Also each entry in the list of recorded shows should indicate how big it is
(much like a computer directory would), so you know what the best
candidates for deletion (or archiving) are.

... Roger

[hub]

Judging from the number of posts on this thread and the passion involved, a perfect FSI could take man-years to develop, which might be why we haven’t seen it.

How about just a simple “df –a” output hidden as an Easter Egg feature, anywhere a developer kind enough to satisfy the nerds among us see fit to put in, say “system info”, three thumbs down, followed by five thumbs up...? I don’t need no translation to hours or 5-day forecast.

There have been times that I resisted the urge to open the box, take out the disk, put it into a PC, boot into Linux to get the results.
:) But then again, I'd probably just put another 120MB disk in there.

[martinp13]

hub: at this point, I would be happy with something like that. It would shut up the pro-FSI rabble (I'm kidding, guys... honest! :)), and be almost the minimum of effort on TiVo's part. ;)

[DevdogAZ]

I don't really care what form the FSI takes as long as they put one in there. I really only need one to tell me how much space is used up "right now." I understand that this is never a true indication of free space due to scheduled recordings in the To Do List but for my purposes, all I want to know is if it is time to watch something that has been saved for a while or find a tape to dump some stuff to. As with most people, I am a procrastinator and will put off these tasks to the last possible minute. So I count up the total hours used on my NP list. I look in the To Do List to see how much will be recorded and the have to determine if there is room or if something will have to be pushed. Then I decide if there is anything I can delete, whether there is anything I can watch or whether I have to dump something to tape. I find myself doing it on a pretty regular basis.

Bottom Line: How many people have to go through their Now Playing list on a regular basis and count up the total hours used? (wouldn't it be nice if there were some way to show the duration of the program on the main NP screen rather than going into each program to find out how long it is?)
I would bet I am not the only one. For my needs, it would be great if there were a simple "gas gauge" type FSI that said how much space was used up right now.

[Ereth]

Turn suggestions on. Take a piece of paper and write, in nice clear text: "The amount of free space you have available RIGHT NOW is: 0" and tape it to the bottom of your screen.

It'll be right within about 2 days, and be correct 99% of the time thereafter, and it didn't take any effort on Tivo's part.

Wow, this thread has been going for over a year. I should've made this suggestion sooner!

:D

[voripteth]

Since there isn't a Free Space Indicator, perhaps we can find an easy work around using existing functions.

1) Turn on Suggestions. (Wait a few days if you didn't have it on before)
2) Observe how many suggestions are saved. When suggestions drop close to zero you are out of free space.
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.
4) Watch or archive the oldest programs.

Done!

(See? You didn't need a FSI after all! ;) )

[beejay]

Originally posted by voripteth
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.(See? You didn't need a FSI after all! ;) )

Oops. 4.0 took away sort by expiration. See, we do need FSI. (And sort by expiration).

(I've seen a posting of FSI available if you have backdoors enabled on 4.0. It looks like it has what we need, if only it didn't add up to about 120% of disk space. Maybe it will be made available in the next release.)

[gayste]

1) Turn on Suggestions. (Wait a few days if you didn't have it on before)
2) Observe how many suggestions are saved. When suggestions drop close to zero you are out of free space.
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.
4) Watch or archive the oldest programs.


That's exactly how i do it. Just keep track of the suggestions and when there are almost none I know i have to start worrying :)

Steven

[DevdogAZ]

You guys amaze me. Do you think this thread would have been going so long if people were content with such a backwards work-around for this issue? Sure, that is a way to fill up your disk with crap that can be deleted but it still doesn't tell you how much free space you have. You still would have to either count up the total hours used by recorded programs or the total hours used by suggestions. Besides, I haven't yet seen anything on the Suggestions that I would want to watch so I prefer to keep them off.

In my opinon, the purpose of this suggestions forum is not for people to suggest a jerry-rigged way to get around the lack of a feature in the software. The purpose of the forum (IMO) is for TiVo users to get together and gripe about things they wish TiVo would add to the software or hardware in the next version. Hopefully TiVo uses forums like this as a way to get free market research and to find out what their users really want.

If a poster asks for something that is already available, then the forum should point him in the right direction. But if a poster simply makes a request or a wish for an enhancement to the TiVo software there is no reason for people to continue to make the same lame suggestions about how that poster could get by without the enhancement if he is willing to do such and such.

Just an opinion. I would like to see the forums have a useful purpose and that is providing feedback to TiVo on what active users of their product would like to see "fixed." But every time someone comes back with an unsactisfactory work-around, it simply says to TiVo that this enhancement isn't necessary because people are willing to accept a mediocre substitution.

[vegaspl]

Wow......

I couldn't have expressed it any better!!!!:up:

In all the years that I have been following postings on this feature being requested, not once have I seen any response from TiVo. At least they could express WHY it cannot or will not be added.:(

[voripteth]

I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:

1) There is a simple work around by watching the number of suggestions.

2) There is no single solution that will make everyone happy. Look at the number of different solutions proposed.

3) Potential of giving misleading information. Without a FSI, TiVo has some wiggle room when freeing space. Adding FSI may cause additional complaints when someone's program gets deleted when FSI showed there was room.

Of course on the other hand this could be a wonderful thing to release as an "undocumented feature". People could use it if they were willing to take the risks of it not being perfect.

While we're waiting for them to add this undocumented feature, take a look at reason #1 again.

[beejay]

Originally posted by voripteth
I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:


I think your initial assertion is incorrect. We have seen screen shots of an FSI that is available in 4.0 with backdoors enabled. Clearly TiVo has spent some effort to give us some measure of disk space in use for various types of recordings.

Now, maybe it will disappear like advanced wishlists, but I don't think it's accurate to say they won't touch this feature.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by voripteth
I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:

Of course on the other hand this could be a wonderful thing to release as an "undocumented feature". People could use it if they were willing to take the risks of it not being perfect.

While we're waiting for them to add this undocumented feature, take a look at reason #1 again.

How wrong can one be!!!! I'll address each of your so called reasons...

1) There is a simple work around by watching the number of suggestions.

Not so "simple"... especially for those of us who have upgraded to larger capacity. I get frustrated when the only alternative is to add up all those times. BTW... If you think that those of us who have upraded are in the minority..... read the article in the current issue of Time entitled "You can Hack it"

2) There is no single solution that will make everyone happy. Look at the number of different solutions proposed.

Those "different" solutions are only being proposed hopefully to indicate to TiVo that almost "Any" kind of alternative FSI would be better than none. You are assuming that just because someone suggests one method, that does not mean they would not be happy with a compromise.

3) Potential of giving misleading information. Without a FSI, TiVo has some wiggle room when freeing space. Adding FSI may cause additional complaints when someone's program gets deleted when FSI showed there was room.

Easily covered by a simple disclaimer of sorts indicating that the figures shown are "approximate"

[voripteth]

Although I keep trying to refrain from responding to this thread I'm drawn in one more time...

I don't quite fathom what is complicated about watching the number of suggestions. If the number of suggestions drops below ten (or whatever threshold suits you) then you are running out of space. Simple! Granted it is just a crude estimate but I offer it as a workaround until TiVo acquieses to the eventuality of including a free space indicator.

As for the multitude of suggested implementations for FSI, apparently TiVo has already included something that is available via a back door command. Hopefully someone who can access this command will post some details here!

[DevdogAZ]

Originally posted by voripteth
I don't quite fathom what is complicated about watching the number of suggestions. If the number of suggestions drops below ten (or whatever threshold suits you) then you are running out of space.

No one said it was complicated. It is simply a matter of convenience. If you use the suggestions method, you still have to count up how many there are.

Originally posted by voripteth
Granted it is just a crude estimate but I offer it as a workaround until TiVo acquieses to the eventuality of including a free space indicator.

Maybe you didn't read my previous post but I don't think most people are content with such a "crude workaround." In my opinion every time someone suggests using a crude workaround rather than adding a constructive, software-based solution they are simply telling TiVo that this issue isn't a priority because their dumb customers are content with a "crude workaround."

If some sort of FSI is not a priority for you, the way you use your TiVo, fine. But I think it's counterproductive to continue to suggest that it isn't important or there is some sort of workaround. I would think we would all like to see TiVo implement ALL the common suggestions in this forum. I don't think we need to try and shoot down the validity of any suggestion made by a poster in this forum.

Bottom Line: While I love my TiVo and am very pleased with almost everything about it, I think there are a ton of small improvements that could be made to the software/interface to make it even better. With the many other PVR options that are beginning to emerge in the marketplace, I would think TiVo would do everything they could to make their customers 100% happy with their machines since word-of-mouth is still the best form of advertising.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by MarcPerkel
Obviously they were not listening for the 4.0 release. (Apparantly busy training that crack CS team that answers their phones.)

The answer to you question is best put this way. Watch the next version of the software. If they are listening it will be there.

Now the more interesting question. Who's interested in making a bet as to whether or not it will be there?

Marc

Being a Probabilities Analyst and Professional Gambler, I would lay 2 to 1 it won't be! :down: :( I DO hope I'm wrong. There have been many many releases since I have been a TiVoer without anything even resembling an FSI. Can no longer be optomistic.

[BrettStah]

Well Paul, at least now there apparently is some sort of FSI available as a backdoors feature, so they have done some work on the feature. Who knows if/when they'll polish it enough for full implementation though...

[HTH]

Originally posted by vegaspl
How wrong can one be!!!! I'll address each of your so called reasons...

1) There is a simple work around by watching the number of suggestions.

Not so "simple"... especially for those of us who have upgraded to larger capacity. I get frustrated when the only alternative is to add up all those times. Why bother adding them up? Whether you have 20 or 200 hours free shouldn't matter to you. That you have enough for what you want to schedule should be enough knowledge for anyone other than someone who has an obsessive need to know every little detail about something, no matter how useless the information.

And surprise, TiVo tells you this as you schedule the recording! It tells you either that you have the space or what needs to change in order to make the space. And does a much better job of it than you could by looking only at what space is free right now.

Your only problem is that you can't be bothered to mark recordings you want to keep as recordings you want to keep. Expired space is free space, dammit!

3) Potential of giving misleading information. Without a FSI, TiVo has some wiggle room when freeing space. Adding FSI may cause additional complaints when someone's program gets deleted when FSI showed there was room.

Easily covered by a simple disclaimer of sorts indicating that the figures shown are "approximate" Have you considered that a simple FSI is misleading because it is insufficient to explain why something gets deleted? And how many people won't know what the word "approximate" means ("That word's too long, an' it's got one of them ekses in it")?

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by HTH
Why bother adding them up? Whether you have 20 or 200 hours free shouldn't matter to you. That you have enough for what you want to schedule should be enough knowledge for anyone other than someone who has an obsessive need to know every little detail about something, no matter how useless the information.

...........


OK HTH....Among other reasons, consider this....

With Multi-TiVo's (I am sure there are more and more of us), many times I have to decide where to place certain recordings. SP's; PPV's; Movies off rented DVD's; etc.

Frustrating when I set one up, only to have TiVo tell me there is not enough space. Knowing at a glance which TiVo's have what space available would make it so much easier to properly allocate.

I realize this particularily may not be a common problem, but I mention it just as an example.

[BrettStah]

Paul, what if at a glance one Tivo had 10 hours listed as "free", and another only had 5 hours? Then you go to put your new wishlist, season pass, etc. into the schedule of the Tivo with more free space, and find out that the Tivo with more free space right now is going to fill up by the time your show comes on, while the other Tivo, it turns out, won't?

[beejay]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Paul, what if at a glance one Tivo had 10 hours listed as "free", and another only had 5 hours? ...

At least he had the information available easily, rather than adding up the space suggestions took up to get less accurate information with more effort.

I have a speedometer in my car, evidently because I'm

someone who has an obsessive need to know every little detail about something, no matter how useless the information.

I could exchange it for an indicator light that just flashed when I was exceeding the speed limit, but that's the kind of obsessive guy I am. ;)

And I'll take the 2-1 bet that some sort of FSI will be generally available in version 5.0.

[BrettStah]

There are 3 things that are used to determine when you'll run out of space.

1) Total capacity of the Tivo (we get this now in System Information).
2) Current space usage (some disagreement on whether this should include suggestions and/or expired shows).
3) When the upcoming recordings (aka To Do List) will cause the Tivo to fill up the remaining space, causing things to be deleted or not recorded due to lack of space.

Some seem to just want the second item. Others feel the third option would be preferable. Others are content with the current system. I'd prefer we get the second and third, with the third being much more useful to me.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by beejay
At least he had the information available easily, rather than adding up the space suggestions took up to get less accurate information with more effort.

I have a speedometer in my car, evidently because I'm

I could exchange it for an indicator light that just flashed when I was exceeding the speed limit, but that's the kind of obsessive guy I am. ;)

..........

Extremely well put beejay!!! In addition, I also have a Gas Guage (or should I use a Dip Stick each time I want to know how much gas I have Left?)

Paul L.:rolleyes:

[martinp13]

Originally posted by beejay
I think your initial assertion is incorrect. We have seen screen shots of an FSI that is available in 4.0 with backdoors enabled. Clearly TiVo has spent some effort to give us some measure of disk space in use for various types of recordings.
I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion. TiVo spent obviously very little time cobbling together something. Was it for us or internal testing? The shots I saw made me decide it was the latter. Even if it WAS for end users, what the heck would you have done with that info? :(

[HTH]

Originally posted by beejay
At least he had the information available easily ...which led to the wrong assumption: that the TiVo with more space free now would have more later, when in fact the one with less space now had more free later.

It is going to be more frustrating when your expectations derived from a misleading FSI turn out to be wrong than just not having a FSI.

Your speedometer analogy is flawed as it focuses only on your current speed on the current stretch of road. It doesn't address the issue of how current capacity usage is not representative of the capacity available at the time the requested show will record.

Any useful FSI has to address the entirety of the scheduled programs, even if it means it can only be shown in the context of whatever listing you're looking at. Effectively it would only display how much space is free at the time the of the listing you're looking at. And that still won't reflect space utilization for every episode of a Season Pass.

And if you thought the UI was slow now, wait until you have to "Please wait" before looking listings while browsing the schedule while the software computes these figures for you for each and every one.

[voripteth]

Originally posted by beejay
We have seen screen shots of an FSI that is available in 4.0 with backdoors enabled.

Can you post a link to those screenshots? I used search on this board but I didn't get any good hits.

[HTH]

Originally posted by voripteth
Can you post a link to those screenshots? I used search on this board but I didn't get any good hits. This thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110500) had one, but sibuni appears to have deleted the screenshot from his server. (I'm assuming tivo.archaic-apples.com is his server.)

[fling93]

I know I haven't posted here before, but I've had this thought for some time now, and still haven't seen it mentioned here.

Originally posted by HTH
Your speedometer analogy is flawed as it focuses only on your current speed on the current stretch of road. It doesn't address the issue of how current capacity usage is not representative of the capacity available at the time the requested show will record.

The gas tank analogy was better. It's a crude indicator with no numbers (thus instantly communicating the fact that it's an approximate estimation). How much farther you can drive before filling up is affected by a host of variables, including, but not limited to, how fast you are going, how often you start and stop, how often you change speeds, how hard you accelerate, how much the elevation changes, tire inflation, whether you use the air conditioner, whether you open the windows, how recently you got your oil changed, and how recently you washed the car.

Yet it's an invaluable indicator, just like an FSI would be.

I'd recommend having the FSI arrow point to EMPTY several days before it expects space to run out. So no programs will get deleted until it's way past EMPTY, just like for cars, and thus most users won't get burned unless they were asking for it, like those who don't fill up the gas until they're down to the last few drops.

[HTH]

Unless you've installed a flux capacitor, you're driving your car only in the present, not in the future like you schedule a TiVo to record.

If you prevent your recordings from expiring, TiVo will tell you when you're getting close to full. I know mine is. I also know from what it tells me that, unless things change, something's going to be deleted at 11 PM tonight. If I were in front of it now, I could tell you exactly what would be deleted.

I don't need a FSI to know that. I don't even need to count up the hours of recordings on the unit, in the To Do List, or even consult how many hours of suggestions there are. Anyone can discover this information as needed through regular maintenance, specifically modifying recordings to expire later.

[beejay]

Originally posted by HTH
Anyone can discover this information as needed through regular maintenance, specifically modifying recordings to expire later.

Most of us would rather not engage in regular maintenance unless our FSI is indicating we are running low.

[HTH]

Originally posted by beejay
Most of us would rather not engage in regular maintenance unless our FSI is indicating we are running low. Do you also have your horse push your cart instead of pull it?

Expired recordings are considered free space by TiVo. To deal with that, you're going to have to count up your expired recordings and use that figure to amend the number you get from the FSI. Is that any more palatable than counting up your suggestions?

[fling93]

Originally posted by HTH
Unless you've installed a flux capacitor, you're driving your car only in the present, not in the future like you schedule a TiVo to record.

Yes, but you need gas for future driving, which is why you need a tank to store your supply in the first place. The car doesn't know any of those variables that affect gas efficiency. It doesn't even know how far and how often you intend to drive. Only you do. So you've got to plan ahead, and the gas gauge is an invaluable aid for this, even though it doesn't tell you "when" to fill up the gas, just how much gas is left.


If you prevent your recordings from expiring, TiVo will tell you when you're getting close to full.

Yes, I know there are plenty of user workarounds for this oversight, just like drivers did before gas gauges. This is all about ease of use. Why force users to go through that effort to get that information when the TiVo can tell them? It doesn't need the user to do any extra work like this (indeed, it has more information than a car does).

[martinp13]

Ok, fling: you park your car with a FULL tank of gas. Can't put in a drop more! Life is so good. You go to sleep with a smile on your face.

You get up the next morning, try to start the car, but nothing!!! Oh no, the gas gauge says EMPTY! How could it? It was FULL the night before. Then you find out your idiot son went joyriding last night without telling you, and used up all of the gas in the car. Barely got back to the driveway before it died.

How are you going to get to work? Or in TiVo terms, how are you going to record a show? It was empty last night when you went to bed, but a last-minute marathon of SUID WishList shows used up all the available space. Didn't do a very good job of "planning ahead", eh? :) A "gas gauge" FSI that can't take the future into account is worthless.

[fling93]

Originally posted by martinp13
Oh no, the gas gauge says EMPTY! How could it? It was FULL the night before. Then you find out your idiot son went joyriding last night without telling you, and used up all of the gas in the car. Barely got back to the driveway before it died.

Yes, and this is actually a real-life issue, especially since kids are notorious for ignoring gas gauges. So is the answer is to get rid of gas gauges from cars?

A "gas gauge" FSI that can't take the future into account is worthless.

But as I said, unlike cars, it can take the future into account. Recall, my suggestion was "I'd recommend having the FSI arrow point to EMPTY several days before it expects space to run out." The TiVo can figure this out just like users can: by looking at the "To Do" list. The TiVo can do this for the user to make our life easier. Indeed, the whole gauge can be totally disassociated from hard drive space and based purely on days remaining until empty.

[HTH]

So, you propose correcting for the confusion over an inaccurate FSI by making the information it reports less precise?

Well at least you're thinking about the issue in new ways. How about if it accurately reported the space available at the most constrained part of the 2 week guide data window?

Of course, that will just substitute the, "My TiVo says I can't record, but the FSI says I have enough space free! This FSI is broken!" with, "My TiVo says I have an insufficient amount of space free, but I'm still able to schedule to record? This FSI is broken!" I'd rather have the latter than the former, but also rather not have either one.

[fling93]

Originally posted by HTH
So, you propose correcting for the confusion over an inaccurate FSI by making the information it reports less precise?

I propose making it as precise as we can without being misleading. My guess is that the TiVo can predict to the hour when it will run out of space up to two weeks in advance, which is probably more precise than users need or want. People are used to getting like 4 bars of granularity (e.g. cell phone batteries), and even though gas tanks provide much more precision than that, will still think of the tank in terms of being 1/2 or 1/4 full.

Of course, that will just substitute the, "My TiVo says I can't record, but the FSI says I have enough space free! This FSI is broken!" with, "My TiVo says I have an insufficient amount of space free, but I'm still able to schedule to record?

Somehow, I don't think we'll have that problem. People are used to machines giving them a margin of error (e.g. a car always has a couple more gallons left when the needle reaches EMPTY, and cell phones still work when the battery indicator reaches 0 bars). Some people will try to take advantage of this margin, but most won't. The people that do generally understand the risk they're taking.

Note TiVo already behaves like this by putting an exclamation point on shows it may delete. Of course, if there's space, those shows can stick around a long, long time, yet you don't hear complaints about, "My TiVo says it might delete these shows, but it doesn't!"

[HTH]

People expect a margin of error in analog data. If your car displays your speed as 64 MPH in a digital readout, you don't expect it to really be 63 or 65, even though scientifically at least a ± 1 MPH margin of error is implied.

Tolerance for error though is greater when capacity is reported as a percentage rather than as a measure of time.

[allan]

Wouldn't bother me! Though I'd rather NOT have it say 65 when it was really 66; that pesky cop might be behind on his quota.

[fling93]

fling93:
People are used to machines giving them a margin of error (e.g. a car always has a couple more gallons left when the needle reaches EMPTY, and cell phones still work when the battery indicator reaches 0 bars).

HTH:
People expect a margin of error in analog data.

Well, to be sure, they generally expect a margin of error relative to the precision presented. Note the cell phone battery example is digital data. You either have 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4 bars of battery power left.

But I wasn't talking about the indicator being imprecise. I was referring to the fact that people are used to machines giving them an extra margin of error in an indicator that reminds them to do something before something bad happens (running out of gas, running out of battery charge, etc.), so they generally don't complain if the indicator is a bit earlier than expected.

[landrumdh]

I've joined the Tivolution and i highly doubt that I'll ever go back. BUT now that I have tons of programs recording for viewing whenever I'd like I wish I knew how much space I have left. Telling me I can hold 38hr 58min dosen't mean much when I'd have to sit there doing math for about 10min to figure out how much space I've used and how much is left.

They should add a quick simple screen that shows total hour recording possibility at the different quality levels (as in when totaly empty AND how much room is left at that level) and just a straight up % of HDD used bar.

[Doktor X]

I think TiVo is underestimating the intelligence of its users here. We just want to know how much space we have free right now. We understand that scheduled recordings will use up that space. Give us a little credit...

If you're really that concerned about getting floods of customer service calls from people who don't understand the feature, bury it under one of the options menus, and put up a screen of explanation/warning before the information is shown. That warning screen could include the same text that your customer service people would read if you were to get all of those calls you are worried about. Seriously, the response to those calls can be written into a single paragraph, and displayed pre-emptively on the screen. If they still call, read them the same paragraph over the phone. Hell, why not put a warning making people agree "Yes, I agree NOT to call customer service as a result of my misinterpretation of this information." every time they try to access it? Just let as see the info!

The absence of this feature is ridiculous.

[Dozer]

How about 3 thumbs down and then enter to accept what the screen says? I agree that this feature is terribly lacking. However, its not something I would ever consider dropping service for!!! Just a simple percentage of disk space usage would be nice.

[ufo4sale]

I wrote a couple of lengthy paragraphs in the TiVo Coffee House that I think everyone should see. It gives some reasons why we haven't seen it yet. and a couple of suggestion on how to simplify the FSI.

[ufo4sale]

I wrote it under "capacity left on TiVo"

[HTH]

It helps if you make it a link (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139631).

[HDTiVo]

I'd have to sit there doing math for about 10min to figure out how much space I've used and how much is left.

Enable groups and you can cut it to about 7 min.

:)

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by rbird
Nearly 91% would use it, if available? That's MUCH higher than even my optimistic brain could imagine! :D

Is Tivo listening???

Bob

Only selectively......

[maddios]

the posts i've read so far to be against the feature are RIDICULOUS!!

for one thing all the people who said confusion would follow, either just like suffering or like arguing!

for one thing, the best analogy i can think of for this is as follows:

Your computer tells you how much hard drive space you have right? well you don't have people calling in when their windows machine or such suddenly says drive is full when the swap file increased in size and filled up the last 100MB when they tried to save a word document! the error CLEARLY states that YOU ARE OUT OF SPACE!

ALSO, although a gas gauge isn't good for future prediction, a TiVo isn't a car, and even then some cars know at the current rate of use (MPG) and total amount of gas (hdd space) left you have so many miles to go (days/hours), and the main thing you guys are forgetting is that WHY THE HELL NOT!

for one thing, people who don't need this feature... DON'T FRIGGIN USE IT! no one is forcing you! however the people who do (me) will... i seriously doubt it'll increase call volumes to customer service from the current "how do i tell how much space is used up" and such.

the best idea i've seen so far was to list a bunch of lines of different data ala configuration of a program, listing how many hours of certain types of recordings, how many hours will be left after, and approx at what date...


AND THE BEST OF ALL, THIS FEATURE WOULD TAKE 30 MINUTES TO CODE!!!!! you are all forgetting that this is a program, and when it comes to coding software this has got to be the simplest function to write EVER lol (especially compared to all of the other features), and like it's been said before, it's all already there, it just needs to be compiled into a single page.
Don't forget TiVo has a DB for storing it's data, i'm sure all of these values are stored in it, would take 5 minutes to write up a query to come up with it


(let the bashing begin)

[HTH]

Any free space indicator cannot represent space in hours. It would have to be in percentages if at all.

When my cable box turned off, my TiVo went crazy with recording Suggestions, able to record far more hours than one would expect, because two hours of a perfectly black screen with absolutely no sound compressed extremely well. It would have to be in percentages if at all.

That TiVo markets the capacity in hours makes a FSI not measuring space in hours a problem.

(Swap files spontaneously grow in Windows?)

[Deven]

Originally posted by beejay
Oops. 4.0 took away sort by expiration. See, we do need FSI. (And sort by expiration).

What?!? They're taking away sort by expiration?? That's my most important sorting mode! Managing my Now Playing list was a nightmare before that was available! :(

[Deven]

Originally posted by voripteth
I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:

1) There is a simple work around by watching the number of suggestions.That's not good enough, and nowhere near accurate when you're close to 100% full, which is exactly when you need to worry about free space. If you have space for lots of suggestions, it's not really a concern, is it? My TiVo's *normally* operate at 100%. I know that because my nightly ritual of extending expiring programs always forces other programs to expire earlier, so I end up having to prioritize and decide what I'm willing to let be deleted that I haven't watch. This is almost impossible to do correctly without sort by expiration.2) There is no single solution that will make everyone happy. Look at the number of different solutions proposed.Most of us would be satisfied with ANY solution which allows us to see the current amount of free space in almost any form. The plethora of suggestions here is entirely aimed at mollifying all the people who bitch and moan about how an FSI is "confusing", "inaccurate", "misleading", etc. If people weren't so dedicated to trying to torpedo a simple feature, we wouldn't have to get so creative to address all their concerns.3) Potential of giving misleading information. Without a FSI, TiVo has some wiggle room when freeing space. Adding FSI may cause additional complaints when someone's program gets deleted when FSI showed there was room.So what!? In case you haven't paid attention, the TiVo already gives misleading information. The System Information screen gives an unrealistically high estimate of the total amount of space (at least on combo boxes). Programs can get deleted before they've actually expired. Life isn't perfect. Why are people demanding perfection of this feature? Why the ridiculously high standard here?Of course on the other hand this could be a wonderful thing to release as an "undocumented feature". People could use it if they were willing to take the risks of it not being perfect.Personally, I don't believe features like sorting and the FSI should be hidden, but as long as I can find out how to turn them on (without backdoors), I'll be happy enough with it.While we're waiting for them to add this undocumented feature, take a look at reason #1 again.Yes, there are kludgely workarounds. And if they were good enough, we wouldn't still be debating this topic year after year. We know about the workarounds, stop harping on them. With sort by expiration, I can get by without an FSI better than I could before, but I still see a need for it. It's absurd that this has become a point of perennial debate when it should be a non-issue.

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
Unless you've installed a flux capacitor, you're driving your car only in the present, not in the future like you schedule a TiVo to record.You're not really going to suggest that a driver is too stupid to have an idea of how much driving they're going to do in the future, are you? If I'm driving cross-country, and I know it could be 100 miles to the next gas station, I might fill up at a quarter of a tank. If I'm driving in the city, I'm comfortable letting it get much lower while waiting to find a good gas price. As a driver, I have a good idea of how much driving I'm going to be doing in the near future.

And guess what? As a TiVo user, I also have a good idea of how much I'm going to record in the near future. And if I lose track, well golly gee. The TiVo can give me a list of everything I've scheduled to record, so it's really no mystery at all. I can see what I'm going to record. The problem is that I can't see how much space I have left, and that mystery is unnecessary and a source of constant frustration.If you prevent your recordings from expiring, TiVo will tell you when you're getting close to full. I know mine is. I also know from what it tells me that, unless things change, something's going to be deleted at 11 PM tonight. If I were in front of it now, I could tell you exactly what would be deleted.Of course, you can't prevent all your recordings from expiring. You should be able to mark everything as Save Until I Delete, but you can't. But that's a separate issue from the FSI one.I don't need a FSI to know that. I don't even need to count up the hours of recordings on the unit, in the To Do List, or even consult how many hours of suggestions there are. Anyone can discover this information as needed through regular maintenance, specifically modifying recordings to expire later.Yes, and this maintenance is a constant burden, on a device which is supposed to take the burden out of television. I literally spend 20 minutes or more a night extending expiration times to make sure I don't lose anything I care about.

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
Do you also have your horse push your cart instead of pull it?

Expired recordings are considered free space by TiVo. To deal with that, you're going to have to count up your expired recordings and use that figure to amend the number you get from the FSI. Is that any more palatable than counting up your suggestions?That would be a pretty crappy FSI, if it only shows the amount of space taken up by unexpired recordings. At the very least, it should show how much space is taken up by: (1) unexpired recordings and (2) requested but expired recordings. It would be best to also include: (3) space taken up by "Save Until I Delete" recordings, (4) Suggestions and (5) unallocated free space not used by recordings of any sort.

Just because the TiVo feels free to blow away anything that's expired doesn't guarantee that the user is equally sanguine about it. I would rather mark every program as "Save Until I Delete" (except filler shows) and risk not having a new program record due to lack of free space than to have to spend countless hours of my time ritualistically extending the expiration times of the programs I don't want to lose. Of course, design flaws in the TiVo software make that approach impossible unless you don't use most of your disk space. But that's a separate issue from the FSI one.

The point is, I want to be in control of what gets deleted, because my TiVo has no clue what's more important to me. Until I am the one in control, TiVo isn't really TV "my way" yet.

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
Any free space indicator cannot represent space in hours. It would have to be in percentages if at all.Percentages are better than nothing (or even a bar graph with no numbers), but it's ridiculous to say that a free space indicator "cannot" represent space in hours. I think maddios is right, you must like arguing over this feature, because objections like this are far from compelling.When my cable box turned off, my TiVo went crazy with recording Suggestions, able to record far more hours than one would expect, because two hours of a perfectly black screen with absolutely no sound compressed extremely well. It would have to be in percentages if at all.So what? That's obvious an abnormal situation. You probably deleted all those suggestions because they were worthless. You would never want to know the amount of a blank screen you can record, so just because your "35 hour" TiVo may be able to record 200 hours of a blank screen doesn't make that information worthwhile. Users want to know how much real programming they can record in the remaining free space.That TiVo markets the capacity in hours makes a FSI not measuring space in hours a problem.It's also a problem that TiVo markets the combo box as a "35 hour" device, yet in practice it maxes out around 30 hours.

Anyhow, I believe a free-space indicator should include the number of hours as well as a percentage of disk space. And it's simple to do this in a very reasonable fashion, despite all the whining opposition which is rampant in this thread.

First, let's address the obvious. For existing recordings, the TiVo can provide information on disk space used AND total recording time, with 100% accuracy. It knows the exact length of every recording, in both time and megabytes. So there's no good reason not to provide this information. Ideally, the user should be able to see both MB as a raw number, and the % of the total space that represents. It's trivial for any user (no matter how unsophisticated) to understand that 1 MB is a unit of measurement of the space available, and that the total space is xxxx MB, and that this program is using xxx MB.

Nobody needs to understand or care what the unit MB means, although most people have been exposed enough to computers that they probably do know. But that knowledge is unimportant -- anyone can understand the relative sizes expressed in a common unit, no matter what that unit is. Hell, the TiVo could represent the sizes in units of 174773 bytes each, and I wouldn't care, as long as I could see the size of each program in that unit, the total number of such units, and the number free. I would be curious about the use of such a strange unit size, but it would be equally usable as MB.

Now, can the TiVo report the number of hours of free space? Of course it can! While the exact compression ratio is not 100% predictable, since programming will vary, the TiVo can readily come up with a much more accurate estimate than the user possibly could. Display "(estimated)" after the amount of time, if necessary, and nobody will complain when it's a few minutes off.

For the standalone models, this calculation is trivial. For each recording quality, the TiVo knows the maximum bitrate it will use, so that's a worst-case bound. That means that the TiVo can accurately predict that xxx MB free will be able to record at least xxx minutes of programming. That's the number that should be shown, in hours and minutes. Either show the calculated time for each recording quality (or make it available by selection), or simply for the one in use as the default recording quality. That would be sufficient. And if something (like your blank screen) happens to compress better than the maximum bitrate, great! Nobody's going to complain if it manages to record more hours than expected.

For DirecTV combo models, such precise worst-case numbers aren't available. On the other hand, the blank-screen recordings are much less likely to occur with an integrated tuner. However, rather than using an arbitrary average bitrate estimate to calculate the number of hours (as the System Information screen does, which always estimates too high), there is an excellent source of data available -- the existing recordings. The combo units should calculate the average bitrate of actual recordings that are in the Now Playing list, and use this to estimate the amount of recording time available.

In practice, the bitrates on DirecTV are fairly consistent, although they do vary depending on the type of programming. However, using the actual average based on the user's own recordings will automatically adapt to the user's preferences. If the user watches only pay-per-view movies which are highly compressed in advance, they'll see a lot more recording time estimated to be available for the same amount of free disk space than a sports fanatic who is always recording high-bitrate programming. And this is perfectly appropriate. Chances are that the user will record programming similar to what they've recorded in the past, so this is the best way to estimate the time remaining for that user.

Of course, since this is an estimate based only on averages, it's particularly important to include the "(estimated)" warning after the time. If you really want to avoid misleading the user, present the remaining time estimate as a range instead of a single time. This will emphasize the fact that it may not be precise, and discourage users from taking a single time estimate too literally. Moreover, you can be 99% sure that the actual remaining time is in the range given by calculating the mean +/- 3 times the standard deviation of the actual bitrates used in existing recordings. This is hard to calculate by hand, but trivial for the computer.

Since the free space estimate may differ from the actual space used by expired programs, it would make sense to be able to see both the actual free space as well as the "free" space that would exist without the expired recordings, since that number will may vary a bit from the time used by the expired recordings plus the estimate of the completely free space. (And the range will vary even more.)

On standalone models, the TiVo could easily calculate the amount of free space at each (or the default) recording quality, with 100% confidence that at least that much time can be recorded, while DirecTV combo models could easily estimate a range for the remaining recording time with 99% confidence that the actual recording time left will be in that range. Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and try to tell me that 99% confidence isn't good enough? If so, then you're trolling and/or looking for a fight. Either way, your contention that free space "cannot" be shown in hours and minutes is unsupportable.(Swap files spontaneously grow in Windows?) Yes, they can if virtual memory runs low, although in my experience the user does see a pop-up dialog warning them that it's being expanded.

[Deven]

In case anyone thinks showing a range of times would be "confusing", another option would be to show the lower number of that range, which would give 99% confidence that at least that much time is available. I still think a range would be preferable to encourage people to view the times as approximate.

By the way, if anyone reading this thread has hacked their TiVo to allow Ethernet access, they might be interested in this free space hack (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153732) in the Underground forum. I plan to try it out once I get around to installing my cache cards, which have been waiting for me since Christmas!

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by Deven
My TiVo's *normally* operate at 100%.Then how would knowing that you have 0% free help you?

:D

[HTH]

You're responding to posts I made nearly 7 months ago and you preemptively accuse me of picking a fight?

I fully understand what you want, Deven. Perhaps you should ask TiVo to push to you the special lobotomized version of the software you desire that performs no disk management at all.

[Deven]

I didn't accuse you of anything, I said you must like arguing over this feature -- I can't imagine why else you invariably raise spurious objections to every reasonable suggestion. And that was in response to a post you made 2 days ago, not 7 months ago. Perhaps if you would try to help improve the ideas presented for an FSI more than trying to tear them down, I might not suspect you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which is what it's starting to look like.

And you obviously don't understand what I want. I don't want a "special lobotomized version" that performs no disk management at all. I want the disk management to be more intelligent than it already is, not less. Right now, there are unnecessarily, arbitrary limitations in TiVo's disk management strategy, and I'd like to see those limitations removed, because I want the TiVo to be the best it can be.

[star_treking]

I'm shure someone said this all ready in this thread but...

What about a guess-ta-mit display. A green>yellow>red bar where it could take probly 6 hours of new shows just to have it go more yellow or red. Of course everything thats not shows dosent get counted in the bar.

The idea with this is its extremely simple so hopefully even grandma/pa can understand it. Also stops people from blaming TiVo for it saying "It should of recorded [This] there was XX hours avalible on there"

So who wants to show me the post that said the same thing I just did?

[DCIFRTHS]

star_treking:

I don't know if that idea has been posted before.....but it sounds like a good one !

[HTH]

Originally posted by Deven
I didn't accuse you of anything, Oh really? Originally posted by Deven
If so, then you're trolling and/or looking for a fight. Some would classify accusing someone of trolling as you did as a personal attack. And that was in response to a post you made 2 days ago, not 7 months ago. Oh please. Obviously I was responding to your messages en masse with only one.
And you obviously don't understand what I want. I don't want a "special lobotomized version" that performs no disk management at all. I want the disk management to be more intelligent than it already is, not less. Right now, there are unnecessarily, arbitrary limitations in TiVo's disk management strategy, and I'd like to see those limitations removed, because I want the TiVo to be the best it can be. You've already stated in the past that you want to be able to overschedule your TiVo so that you can have everything be KUID and still schedule more KUID recordings. You want your TiVo to behave more like a VCR that stops recording when the tape gets full.

That's tantamount to wanting the disk space manager disabled. That you want a FSI as well says you feel you can do a better job at managing storage space than the TiVo. Better than a computer that has ready access to more facts than it even conveys to you.

Thus I don't consider you a reasonable disputant on this topic.

I'm a forgiving type and willing to agree with people on some things and not on others (e.g. if you were to petition David Bott to modify the quoting code here to better handle original text that used bold text so those quoting them wouldn't have to reverse the boldness manually, I'd be behind you on that), but if you continue to make this personal as quoted above I doubt I'll be willing to listen to what you have to say on any topic.

[HTH]

A meter that gave no hard figures to the user could pass muster. I'd suggest the color be a continuous chromatic scale though rather than a simple green/yellow/red indicator to prevent attempts at assigning a precise threshold meaning to the color change. Anyone trying to discern hard meanings to the colors should have to resort to using a color matching wheel.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by HTH
A meter that gave no hard figures to the user could pass muster. I'd suggest the color be a continuous chromatic scale though rather than a simple green/yellow/red indicator to prevent attempts at assigning a precise threshold meaning to the color change. Anyone trying to discern hard meanings to the colors should have to resort to using a color matching wheel.


After all this time I have been pushing for FSI....My Luck...the one they would adopt would be the above. I AM COLOR-BLIND:(

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
Oh really? Some would classify accusing someone of trolling as you did as a personal attack.Then you didn't read what I wrote. I never actually accused you of trolling. I asked if you were going to tell me that 99% confidence isn't good enough, and I then added that if so, then you must be trolling. (Because 99% confidence should be plenty good enough for any reasonable person.) Did you even pay attention to the solution I suggested? No, you accused me of a personal attack, which it wasn't. It was a rhetorical challenge, nothing more.Oh please. Obviously I was responding to your messages en masse with only one.Yes, but the particular point you were responding to was in response to your recent posting, not the older one.You've already stated in the past that you want to be able to overschedule your TiVo so that you can have everything be KUID and still schedule more KUID recordings. You want your TiVo to behave more like a VCR that stops recording when the tape gets full.Absolutely. And there's absolutely nothing unreasonable about what I want to do.That's tantamount to wanting the disk space manager disabled.No, it's not. First off, I still want the current space management for filler material. However, I don't agree with the hardcoded assumption that new programs are automatically more important than old programs already on the hard drive. There have been many occasions where I've had something important get deleted to make room for filler material I didn't particularly care about. All because of an arbitrary and unnecessary limitation in the disk management design.That you want a FSI as well says you feel you can do a better job at managing storage space than the TiVo. Better than a computer that has ready access to more facts than it even conveys to you.The computer does not have access to the most important fact -- which programs are more important than others. How could it possibly know better than me which I'd rather lose, some random existing recording or some random new recording? Only the user can know that.Thus I don't consider you a reasonable disputant on this topic.Because I disagree on a fundamental design design decision, you claim I'm not a "reasonable disputant" on this topic? All my arguments have been reasonable, and well-supported. If you choose to ignore every argument I present by writing it off as "that's not how the TiVo is supposed to work", then you're not debating the issues -- you're just shutting down the conversation. That sort of response (not just from you) was why I got tired of debating on this thread long ago, when people would refute my arguments by bare assertion that they were wrong, instead of considering them seriously or actually addressing the points I was making.I'm a forgiving type and willing to agree with people on some things and not on others (e.g. if you were to petition David Bott to modify the quoting code here to better handle original text that used bold text so those quoting them wouldn't have to reverse the boldness manually, I'd be behind you on that), but if you continue to make this personal as quoted above I doubt I'll be willing to listen to what you have to say on any topic.Well, I don't know why you go to that effort. The bolding of quoted text is silly anyhow, since the quote tag sets it off plenty -- I just strip out the automatically-added bold tags and it works just fine. It would be better if it didn't add them at all, but I don't care enough about it to pursue the issue.

I have no interest in making this personal. I would like everyone on this thread to be able to come to some sort of consensus about how a FSI could be designed that meets everyone's concerns. However, there comes a point when naysayers become so persistent that it becomes hard to believe they're interested in the same thing -- some seem interested only in making sure no FSI is ever implemented, for some perverse reason. Since you seem to invariably denigrate or ignore every reasonable solution suggested, I've started to wonder if anything could satisfy you on this topic. Tell me, do you really want to see a solution here, or do you just like shooting down all the hard work others put into coming up with creative solutions to address your complaints about previous solutions?

After all, you complained that a FSI that doesn't show a remaining time available would be of questionable value, and when I offered a technique for calculating a remaining time with 99% confidence (which should be good enough for anyone), you completely ignored the idea. If you really are interested in consensus here, why didn't you respond with "that's great, we can show a time after all" or some good reason why that approach might need refinement?

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
A meter that gave no hard figures to the user could pass muster. I'd suggest the color be a continuous chromatic scale though rather than a simple green/yellow/red indicator to prevent attempts at assigning a precise threshold meaning to the color change. Anyone trying to discern hard meanings to the colors should have to resort to using a color matching wheel.Is it really necessary to water an FSI down to near useless levels before you'll consider it acceptable? Anything that vague isn't really a noticable improvement over the "count the number of suggestions recorded" workaround. Hard numbers are available (in MB if nothing else), there's no reason they couldn't be reported. And I already presented a solid technique for coming up with hard numbers for a time estimate, which can be conservative enough to almost always be on the low side. (Nobody is going to complain when it manages to record a little more than the estimate.) So what's wrong with putting some actual numbers out there that the user can use?

[Deven]

Originally posted by vegaspl
Total 7 TiVos 881 Hrs & 2 HD PVR's 13 hours HD

TiVo"A": Series 2 80 hrs <-(SonyHD)/DTV-HD-ANT
TiVo"B": S/A SonySVR2000 180 hrs <ANT & DVD Copy
TiVo"C": D'TiVo Sony SAT-T60 105 hrs<-DTV
TiVo"D": S/A Phillips 82 hrs <-ANT/DTV
TiVo"E": S/A Phillips 30 hrs <-ANT/DVD Copy
TiVo"F": D/TiVo Philips DSR6000 105 hrs<-DTV
TiVo"G": S/A Phillips 298 hrs <DVD Archiving
Zenith HDR230 Hi-Def Recorder 8.5 hrs ... Master Bedroom
Zenith HDR230 Hi-Def Recorder 12.5 hrs ... Entertainment AreaHoly crap, man! Just how much TV do you watch? :D

[star_treking]

HTH

I'd suggest the color be a continuous chromatic scale though....


I agree with you on that one.

vegaspl

After all this time I have been pushing for FSI....My Luck...the one they would adopt would be the above. I AM COLOR-BLIND


They could use a rectangle box(and/or tape symbol) that represents space available. (G)reen to (Y)ellow to (R)ed bar would expand for example from left to right. left being green, until the space is used up the rest of the box would be a very different color. For example they use black, G,Y,R would be a different shades of greys on black therefore lets you see how much space is used.

Deven

Is it really necessary to water an FSI down to near useless levels before you'll consider it acceptable?


It's an acceptable start.
For me I'd say give me an answer in Megs. but the *average* TiVo user, I don't think so. What I mean by average is people that buy a TiVo because its ads make it sound like recording is so simple.

If they know "what a C:> prompt" then it's a no brainer. How ever the person that has little to no experience with going down directory trees, typing keywords and has to read the manual for there remote to do anything more than basic channel navigation it would be quite a learning experience. AND THEN to understand how much space is left on the "tape" that would be a little more confusing tidbit to understand.

Yes i know there is a large space between the two extremes. Alot of the people in between those two will call in for help.

With quite a number of calls of what does [Units] of [Units] mean?

But when a "FSI down to near useless levels" will be a benefit to nearly if not everyone and will keep the calls down to a reasonable level.

Plus its a lot more reliable than TiVo suggestions. I can only speak from my experience. One day it records a few suggestions after a heavy recording day and some days it wont record any suggestions even after days of "pruning". The Suggestions for me have been hit or miss.

Deven
Anything that vague isn't really a noticable improvement over the "count the number of suggestions recorded" workaround.

If you where to tell ME that I'd say "You gotta be kidding?"

[star_treking]

Deven
Is it really necessary to water an FSI down to near useless levels before you'll consider it acceptable?

An example that you can relate to. The gas tank. Its style of giving information is nearly identical. gas dial has a pointer that goes from F passing a few tick marks to E. the FSI in this example goes from blank and expands to a G/Y/R bar.

Besides do you care how many Oz are in the tank. Or the tank volume is at 3.58" of 14"?

Your Sig said it perfictly

"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay

Simple "how much space do I have" complex "Tivo making tv simple"

[Deven]

Originally posted by star_treking
With quite a number of calls of what does [Units] of [Units] mean?

But when a "FSI down to near useless levels" will be a benefit to nearly if not everyone and will keep the calls down to a reasonable level. So show the units as time (hours and minutes) and estimate them conservatively. I already explained how this can be done with at least 99% confidence that the time has not been overestimated. (Actually, more like 99.5% if you just use the mean - 3 times the standard deviation.) Everyone can understand hours and minutes, and it's how the capacity of the unit is marketed. The TiVo can calculate an estimated time remaining far more accurately than the numbers used for marketing purposes, and it's really the unit people are interested in.

What would be wrong with showing hours and minutes free?Plus its a lot more reliable than TiVo suggestions. I can only speak from my experience. One day it records a few suggestions after a heavy recording day and some days it wont record any suggestions even after days of "pruning". The Suggestions for me have been hit or miss.Yes, they are. My point was that a FSI which only indicated the amount of free space by the use of a particular color from a chromatic scale would be so vague, inaccurate and hard to interpret as to be nearly useless. Combine it with a bar graph, on the other hand, and you have something useful and usable, if a little imprecise. It's the bar graph that's most useful; the color is just a bonus feature.

[HTH]

Originally posted by Deven
Then you didn't read what I wrote. I never actually accused you of trolling. I asked if you were going to tell me that 99% confidence isn't good enough, and I then added that if so, then you must be trolling. Even couched in a conditional, it's an accusation. And I don't respond to made up "99%" figures. I don't agree with the hardcoded assumption that new programs are automatically more important than old programs already on the hard drive. There have been many occasions where I've had something important get deleted to make room for filler material I didn't particularly care about. All because of an arbitrary and unnecessary limitation in the disk management design.

The computer does not have access to the most important fact -- which programs are more important than others. How could it possibly know better than me which I'd rather lose It can't unless you tell it. But your method of recording hinges on telling the TiVo absolutely nothing about your preferences. Everything KUID is telling it everything you record is of the highest importance to you without exception. You're cornering it into an impossible to manage situation and demanding it perform to your uncommunicated specifications. Because I disagree on a fundamental design design decision, you claim I'm not a "reasonable disputant" on this topic? If TiVo were to suddenly get rid of its current storage management system and replace it with a FSI, putting the onus on the user to manage overscheduling in his household, it will alienate existing customers and create bad word of mouth from them which will alienate future customers. You don't change the fundamental design of an existing product with an established user base! Unless you already have monopolist power, that would be suicide! (New Coke almost killed the brand.) Tell me, do you really want to see a solution here, or do you just like shooting down all the hard work others put into coming up with creative solutions to address your complaints about previous solutions? I've seen a few that could be workable. I like the chromatic scale. I even have an indicator in (the ubiquitous analogy) my car that indicates when the next scheduled full service needs to take place, a tiny colored square just below the trip odometer. Most of the time it is green, but then slowly turns yellow, then red as the service time approaches.

I also like the idea of giving a special flag to the first (set of) recordings that would be deleted due to the next pending recording. Even if it also flagged the next Suggestion(s) to be deleted. (And it is simply the oldest expired goes first. If you don't like that, then make the oldest expired not be expired until the one you're comfortable being deleted is the oldest expired recording.)

I would also like to see a better way to manage expiration across a set of user-selected recordings. Extension of the existing system logically to improve its usability is the path I feel TiVo should follow.

But I don't agree with any idea that abrogates the user's responsibility to communicate his retention desires with the TiVo through the expiry method. Nor any method that requires it do extra calculations as the processor of Series1 units has sufficient load placed upon it.

I also dispute the general usefulness of a FSI. For those with large TiVos with lots of free space, it would only serve to confirm to them that they have lots of free space. For those who have very little free space and somehow aren't already aware of that fact, they'll still have to manage the expiration of their recordings anyway in order to control deletion.

A FSI with hard numbers only serves to give one a oversight power to make sure TiVo is managing space correctly because you don't trust it. And because of that, it will be used to complain with if someone ever suspects that it is not managing space correctly. It will become an arguing point both here and in service calls about why things will or won't record, and will cost TiVo money better spent on better service features with greater importance, like improved conflict management through user-permitted partial recording, cooperative scheduling, and multi-TiVo storage management.

Confidence in hard numeric figures is not what we should have.

[HTH]

A passive but prominent indicator that communicates when the TiVo tries to schedule something and finds that it can't keep it for the default 48 hours would be nice too. As well as one when it predicts it will fail to record a specific(*) episode of a FroSP due to a conflict or capacity. Something more useful and prominent than digging through the Recording History, but not so much as it becomes a PTCM alert or fills up your Messages area.

(*) As opposed to failing to record a non-specific episode, i.e. one with insufficient guide data and so presumed to be first-run.

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by Deven
Holy crap, man! Just how much TV do you watch? :D

I have been "Time-shifting" for over 20 years now. Many Tivo's provide easy flexibility, also you may note that I use some for archiving DVD's from Netflix.

As far as the time is concerned, unfortunately I have more than I care to have due to being confined due to Cancer.

Devon, if you recall I was a heavy debater on this topic way back when. However, after running into the almost fanatical persistent one's on the negative side, I finally gave up.

By the way, the Zenith HDR230's do have an indicator that continuously updates the Time Remaining in Hrs. & Min. It's other features fall far short of TiVo's though.

Hopefully, the upcoming TiVo HD unit will have some sort of FSI:up:

[star_treking]

Deven
What would be wrong with showing hours and minutes free?

Guaranty that it wont say something to the effect of "yes I can record [it]"
and then turns around to the effect of saying "theres not that much space for [it]"

Guaranty that wont happen and i'd say perfect

Deven
star_treking
Plus its a lot more reliable than TiVo suggestions. I can only speak from my experience. One day it records a few suggestions after a heavy recording day and some days it wont record any suggestions even after days of "pruning". The Suggestions for me have been hit or miss.

Yes, they are.

"Yes they are" what?
Yes they are unreliable or yes they are reliable? For me they are unreliable because half the time I nearly empty the hard-drive and TiVo will not suggest anything for a week. The next week I want a lot of programs and then so does TiVo.

Those "waves" of recording are making hard for me to figure out space available.
Deven
My point was that a FSI which only indicated the amount of free space by the use of a particular color from a chromatic scale would be so vague, vague thats not vague, vague is a VCR using (i believe)metric footage to count where on the tape I'm at.inaccurate and hard to interpret as to be nearly useless.
Not really I had a VCR that had a linear bar that showed where in the tape I was at. The numbers on the display weren't all that helpful with it counting from start of recording not start of tape.
Combine it with a bar graph, on the other hand, and you have something useful and usable, if a little imprecise. It's the bar graph that's most useful; the color is just a bonus feature.
Ok the color is a bonus because it only tells you your only getting close to being too close to not having enough space to record this weeks recordings.

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
Even couched in a conditional, it's an accusation.Well, I'm sorry it came across that way. At most, it was a potential accusation, and I was hoping you'd rise to the challenge by agreeing that 99% confidence is indeed acceptable. If I really thought you were trolling, I wouldn't bother to respond.And I don't respond to made up "99%" figures.There's nothing "made up" about that figure. Standard deviation (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/StandardDeviation.html) is a well-defined mathematical concept. Assuming that the data has a normal distribution (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NormalDistribution.html) (i.e. "bell curve"), the standard deviation can be used to calculate a confidence interval (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ConfidenceInterval.html), which tells you the mathematical probability that any given sample from the data set will occur within that interval. Specifically, within 1 standard deviation of the mean, there is a 68.27% chance that any given data sample will fall within that range, Within 2 standard deviations of the mean, the probability jumps to a 95.45% chance. Within 3 standard deviations of the mean, the probability is up to 99.73%. If you want overkill, 4 standard deviations gives you 99.99%, and for serious overkill, 5 standard deviations gives you 99.99994%.

I suggested calculating a range using 3 standard deviations, for the 99.73% confidence interval, which leaves only a 0.27% chance for a data sample to fall outside that range. Half of that probability (0.135%) is for samples which are lower than the range, and the other half is for samples which are higher than that range.

Here is a quote from a web page with a simplified explanation (http://www.robertniles.com/stats/stdev.shtml) of standard deviation:Computing the value of a standard deviation is complicated. But let me show you graphically what a standard deviation represents...

http://www.robertniles.com/stats/graphics/stndv.gif

One standard deviation away from the mean in either direction on the horizontal axis (the red area on the above graph) accounts for somewhere around 68 percent of the people in this group. Two standard deviations away from the mean (the red and green areas) account for roughly 95 percent of the people. And three standard deviations (the red, green and blue areas) account for about 99 percent of the people.

The upshot of all this is that a range could be calculated to 3 standard deviations, and either presented to the user as a range, or if a single number is preferred, the lower bound of the calculated range could be presented as the estimated amount of remaining time. Either way, there is a 99.865% chance that the user will be able to record at least that much time in the remaining space available. How can that not be good enough?

Yes, I rounded the probably down to 99% even for simplicity of discussion, but the actual probability is even higher, and it's not a "made up" number at all, so how about responding to a mathematically valid 99.865% figure?It can't unless you tell it. But your method of recording hinges on telling the TiVo absolutely nothing about your preferences. Everything KUID is telling it everything you record is of the highest importance to you without exception. You're cornering it into an impossible to manage situation and demanding it perform to your uncommunicated specifications.On the contrary, if I could record everything as KUID, that would be a very clearly communicated specification. I'm telling the TiVo that it should never presume to delete those programs, period. Taken to the extreme, yes, I could mark everything that way, but in practice I wouldn't. However, I would mark many things that way, for one simple reason. The TiVo's concept of importance is very simplistic -- it basically assumes that the older a recording is, the less important it is, and that the newest recordings are therefore the most important. The only way to override this assumption is to mark a program KUID/SUID, at which point the TiVo assumes you'll never, ever delete it under any circumstances. Both of these assumptions are incorrect, and the functionality of the device is being constrained based on these incorrect assumptions.

But this is a separate topic from a free space indicator.If TiVo were to suddenly get rid of its current storage management system and replace it with a FSI, putting the onus on the user to manage overscheduling in his household, it will alienate existing customers and create bad word of mouth from them which will alienate future customers. You don't change the fundamental design of an existing product with an established user base! Unless you already have monopolist power, that would be suicide! (New Coke almost killed the brand.)I have no idea what prompted this diatribe. I never suggested getting rid of the current storage management system. I suggested fixing the KUID/SUID functionality so that users can choose to mark anything KUID/SUID without artificial limitations. If a given user goes to the extreme of marking everything KUID/SUID, then clearly that's what that user wants, and there's no reason to deny him. Yes, warn him that upcoming programs may not record, but don't remove them from the To Do list preemptively, just in case the user fails to delete something in time to make room for the recording -- because if they do, then the recording could have been made, but it's already been removed from the To Do list, so the system fails to record a requested program. (Even if it's a season pass, it won't be instantly rescheduled.)

It's quite feasible to fix KUID/SUID without changing the fundamental nature of the TiVo's disk space management system.I've seen a few that could be workable. I like the chromatic scale. I even have an indicator in (the ubiquitous analogy) my car that indicates when the next scheduled full service needs to take place, a tiny colored square just below the trip odometer. Most of the time it is green, but then slowly turns yellow, then red as the service time approaches.It wouldn't hurt to have that sort of chromatic scale, but it's nowhere near as useful as knowing that the disk is 83% full and you have at least 3 hours and 37 minutes of time available (or whatever).I also like the idea of giving a special flag to the first (set of) recordings that would be deleted due to the next pending recording. Even if it also flagged the next Suggestion(s) to be deleted. (And it is simply the oldest expired goes first. If you don't like that, then make the oldest expired not be expired until the one you're comfortable being deleted is the oldest expired recording.)I'm not sure I understand this one -- isn't this much the same as sort-by-expiration? (I really wish they wouldn't make the sorting a hidden feature, and it worries me that someone said that sort-by-expiration was being removed in 4.0 -- I depend on it heavily now...)I would also like to see a better way to manage expiration across a set of user-selected recordings. Extension of the existing system logically to improve its usability is the path I feel TiVo should follow.Right now, there are 3 priority levels. KUID/SUID is the top priority, but crippled in such a way that it can only be used sparingly. User-scheduled recordings which can expire are the next priority, and Suggestions are the lowest priority. I would like to see an explicit priority level you could set, say from 1-9. At the same priority level, current semantics could apply -- delete the oldest expired thing to record a new thing. When something needs to be deleted to save space, always start with the lowest priority (priority 9) and never delete something at a higher priority level if anything (non-SUID) exists at a lower priority level. Suggestions could be considered priority 9, and allow them to compete with user-specified filler programs on an equal basis -- or treat them as priority 10 and maintain the current semantics of "suggestions are always deleted first". New recordings could default to a priority of 5 if unspecified. Of course, any season pass or wishlist would have an associated priority for recordings it schedules.

Now, the most important part of this priority system would be a simple (but extremely effective) rule -- never delete a higher-priority recording to make room for a lower-priority recording, because the user has already communicated to the TiVo that the higher-priority recording is more important, therefore it's a given that the user would rather lose the new lower-priority recording than the existing higher-priority recording.

If I had such a priority system, I would make use of it extensively, because the automatic deletions would be much less likely to do the wrong thing. Of course, some people would surely argue that setting explicit priority levels is too complicated or confusing...But I don't agree with any idea that abrogates the user's responsibility to communicate his retention desires with the TiVo through the expiry method.The expiry method is extremely crude and clumsy as a means of communicating the relative priority of recordings. It's better than nothing, because you can usually sequence the deletions appropriately, but only with tremendous, tedious effort. This is supposed to be an effortless system. We need a better solution, not the kludge of fiddling with expiration times, which forces the user to adapt to the simplistic algorithm of the system instead of allowing the system to adapt to the preferences of the user in a more direct, effective and effortless fashion.Nor any method that requires it do extra calculations as the processor of Series1 units has sufficient load placed upon it.If you're referring to the calculation of a standard deviation, it's a trivial calculation for any computer, no matter how slow the processor is. Each existing recording is a single data point, and calculating the mean and standard deviation of those data points, even with hundreds of recordings on a slow CPU, would probably still take less than a millisecond. It's nothing.I also dispute the general usefulness of a FSI. For those with large TiVos with lots of free space, it would only serve to confirm to them that they have lots of free space. For those who have very little free space and somehow aren't already aware of that fact, they'll still have to manage the expiration of their recordings anyway in order to control deletion.Not necessarily. If I could see the remaining time which is unallocated to any recording, I could allow most recordings to sit in an expired state as long as I have enough hours free to cover the upcoming recordings. But without the FSI, I'm forced to literally spend about 30 minutes daily shuffling expiration times to (1) see how much will be forced to expire to make room for upcoming recordings and (2) avoid having programs remain expired so the TiVo won't feel free to blow away recordings I want without warning.A FSI with hard numbers only serves to give one a oversight power to make sure TiVo is managing space correctly because you don't trust it.It lets me know if something is likely to be deleted to make room for my upcoming recordings, and allows me to clear sufficient space based on my priorities, which the TiVo does not know.And because of that, it will be used to complain with if someone ever suspects that it is not managing space correctly. It will become an arguing point both here and in service calls about why things will or won't record, and will cost TiVo money better spent on better service features with greater importance, like improved conflict management through user-permitted partial recording, cooperative scheduling, and multi-TiVo storage management.That's very vague. How about a concrete example? This scenario seems unlikely.Confidence in hard numeric figures is not what we should have.Why, because it's better to be kept in th dark so you can nervously wonder what's going to happen next?

[Deven]

Originally posted by HTH
[A passive but prominent indicator that communicates when the TiVo tries to schedule something and finds that it can't keep it for the default 48 hours would be nice too. As well as one when it predicts it will fail to record a specific(*) episode of a FroSP due to a conflict or capacity. Something more useful and prominent than digging through the Recording History, but not so much as it becomes a PTCM alert or fills up your Messages area.I would suggest using the yellow exclamation point icon in the To Do list for recordings which will record, but which will expire in less than 48 hours. For recordings which are predicted not to record, but would record but for lack of disk space, leave them in the To Do list and mark the recording with a red version of the exclamation point icon. The user could easily see at a glance which recordings are in danger of not getting recorded, without digging through the recording history or needing to reschedule recordings which were automatically removed from the To Do list based on free space estimates.

In case the user doesn't notice the errors on the To Do list, when the time comes to record a program where there isn't enough space, switch to the channel at the start time, lock the tuner on that channel as usual, and start buffering the program in the live TV buffer. (But with a clean break in the buffer at the start time.) Then, pop up a warning dialog like the "need to change channels for a new recording" dialog, which says that the user needs to free up some disk space or this recording will be lost. If the user is present, that would give them up to 30 minutes to find something and delete it. (They could even watch and delete a 30-minute program.) Then, when space becomes available, move the recording from the live TV buffer into a normal recording. If space runs out again before the recording is finished, start eating into the live buffer again and repeat the process.

Combine this with the elimination of the arbitrary limitations on KUID/SUID, and this would resolve most or all of the flaws in KUID/SUID design.

[Deven]

Originally posted by vegaspl
I have been "Time-shifting" for over 20 years now. Many Tivo's provide easy flexibility, also you may note that I use some for archiving DVD's from Netflix.Hey, that's a good way to get the most out of your Netflix subscription!As far as the time is concerned, unfortunately I have more than I care to have due to being confined due to Cancer.Sorry to hear about that. :(Devon, if you recall I was a heavy debater on this topic way back when. However, after running into the almost fanatical persistent one's on the negative side, I finally gave up.Yes, I remember. And the fanatical, unreasoning, unrelenting negativity drove me away from this thread for a very long time, and away from this entire forum system for that matter. (And a lack of time to keep up with it all contributed also.)By the way, the Zenith HDR230's do have an indicator that continuously updates the Time Remaining in Hrs. & Min. It's other features fall far short of TiVo's though.Well, it's pretty easy to calculate when you control the encoder and know the maximum possible bitrate!Hopefully, the upcoming TiVo HD unit will have some sort of FSI:up:Yeah, start holding your breath. Let us know when you start turning blue, for all the good it will do...

[Deven]

Originally posted by star_treking
Guaranty that it wont say something to the effect of "yes I can record [it]"
and then turns around to the effect of saying "theres not that much space for [it]"

Guaranty that wont happen and i'd say perfectThe standalone models can guarantee it, simply because the maximum bitrate used by the encoder (for any given quality setting) is a known value. The DirecTV models can't quite guarantee this, but as I explained before, you can be shown a number which is 99.865% certain to be conservative enough. Isn't that close enough to a guarantee? (If it's not, an appropriate fractional multiplier for the standard deviation can be calculated to meet any arbitrary confidence level.)"Yes they are" what?Yes, suggestions are hit or miss. They can only serve as a crude approximation of the amount of free disk space, and there could always be a lot more free disk space than the suggestions would imply, since the TiVo might not have gotten around to filling up all the available space with suggestions yet. This is why a real FSI would be much better than this poor-man's workaround.vague thats not vague, vague is a VCR using (i believe)metric footage to count where on the tape I'm at.Well, if you know the total length of the tape, you could make sense of that number. Of course, most VCRs use hours and minutes instead, and some can estimate the time remaining in hours and minutes too -- and nobody seems to get too upset when it's not completely accurate, either...Not really I had a VCR that had a linear bar that showed where in the tape I was at. The numbers on the display weren't all that helpful with it counting from start of recording not start of tape.A simple bar graph is like a fuel gauge -- easy to understand and usable. It can be accurate, even if it's imprecise. (Yes, you can be accurate without being precise.) It would be a big improvement over what we have now. But if you're showing a bar graph, you might as well also give a hard number, as a percentage at the very least (e.g. 89.2% full, 10.8% free, etc.)Ok the color is a bonus because it only tells you your only getting close to being too close to not having enough space to record this weeks recordings.The color could represent arbitrary levels of fullness, but it would probably be more useful for the color to change when upcoming programming (say, in the next 48 hours) is affected by a shortage of disk space. For example, the bar could remain green (even at 100% full) if nothing is scheduled in the next couple days which needs the space. It could turn yellow if space is low enough that any of the recordings in the next 48 hours will be saved for less than the default 48-hour expiration time. It could turn red if any recordings in the next 48 hours will not record at all due to a lack of disk space.

Better yet, use a chromatic scale based on how far away the predicted problem is. Fully green could mean no space problems in the upcoming 14 days, or however far the To Do list extends. Incremental steps towards yellow could indicate how many days away the space will start getting tight, with fully yellow used when recordings in the next 24 hours will be saved for less than the default 48 hours. Incremental steps between yellow and red could then indicate how far away a severe disk shortage has caused recordings to be removed from the schedule. Fully red could indicate that something that should have recorded in the next 24 hours won't because of a disk shortage.

I think this would be a great way to combine a bar graph with a chromatic scale in a fashion which would be much more useful than changing colors based on particular percentages. Combine this with a hard time estimate, very conservatively calculated, and this might just be a near-perfect FSI...

Thoughts, anyone? I just thought of this approach to utilizing a chromatic scale, and I think it nicely addresses the concerns people have had about "what if there's free space now but won't be tomorrow?"

[star_treking]

Originally posted by Deven
The standalone models can guarantee it, simply because the maximum bitrate used by the encoder (for any given quality setting) is a known value. Originally posted by Deven
A simple bar graph is like a fuel gauge -- easy to understand and usable. Originally posted by Deven
give a hard number, as a percentage at the very least (e.g. 89.2% full, 10.8% free, etc.)Originally posted by Deven
use a chromatic scale based on how far away the predicted problem is. Fully green could mean no space problems in the upcoming 14 days, or however far the To Do list extends. Incremental steps towards yellow could indicate how many days away the space will start getting tight, with fully yellow used when recordings in the next 24 hours will be saved for less than the default 48 hours. Incremental steps between yellow and red could then indicate how far away a severe disk shortage has caused recordings to be removed from the schedule. Fully red could indicate that something that should have recorded in the next 24 hours won't because of a disk shortageOriginally posted by Deven
I think this would be a great way to combine a bar graph with a chromatic scale in a fashion which would be much more useful than changing colors based on particular percentages. Combine this with a hard time estimate, very conservatively calculated, and this might just be a near-perfect FSI...

Thoughts, anyone? I just thought of this approach to utilizing a chromatic scale, and I think it nicely addresses the concerns people have had about "what if there's free space now but won't be tomorrow?"

Other than the matter that vegaspl brought up

Originally posted by vegaspl
After all this time I have been pushing for FSI....My Luck...the one they would adopt would be the above. I AM COLOR-BLIND

How ever that can easily be fixed by using colors that the hue is light/medium/dark or dark/medium/light with colors that also make sense.

Now it sounds like "this might just be a near-perfect FSI".

The chromatic scale should take care of the play between "there is this much room now" and "I need to start deleting stuff soon".


I like Deven's plan with the suggestions I made. Because it takes care of hard numbers that TiVo knows for shure. and the addition of the colors gives a reasonably good prediction of the future.

So heres a direction I would like to see FSI take.
I'd like to see if it can be battle tested in TC to figure out other kinks.
Some kind moderator to sticky the result to get more kinks out. The idea here being TC in its way doing a good chunk of TiVo Inc.'s market research. With that it would help them out in getting to go forward with FSI. Plus if someone that has the authority at TiVo to tell us why they haven't added it. Witch means they would say specific things that we (TC'ers) could think of and explain in detail. To come up with a way to fix that problem. Then after all that it should be the perfect FSI.

Hopefully the next thing would be limited beta testing.:):):):)

[Deven]

Oops, I started composing this reply earlier, and forgot to post it. Well, better late than never.

Originally posted by star_treking
An example that you can relate to. The gas tank. Its style of giving information is nearly identical. gas dial has a pointer that goes from F passing a few tick marks to E. the FSI in this example goes from blank and expands to a G/Y/R bar.

Besides do you care how many Oz are in the tank. Or the tank volume is at 3.58" of 14"?Yes, I'm fine with the gas gauge analogy. I discussed it years ago (http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=110623#post110623) . And I've said before that I would be reasonably happy with a simple bar graph that gives me a snapshot of the current space used and free, although I'd rather have actual numbers at my disposal.

As a computer person, I'd be happy to see MB numbers, but I can understand that some users would indeed be confused by that. However, nobody should be confused by percentages -- I would be satisfied with a percentage that would show the relative disk space usage, but I'd want it to have at least one decimal place of precision, if not two. I'd rather see "89.2%" or "89.23%" than simply "89%".

Since clueless users won't tend to hit Display to go to the gory details about a program, that would be a reasonable place to display the real MB number -- it's less likely to confuse anyone there...

[Deven]

Originally posted by star_treking
Other than the matter that vegaspl brought upWell, the chromatic scale could be combined with text-based warnings as well, so anyone who can't see the colors can read the text. Even for those who can see the colors, the text could give a specific time -- "Warning: Based on current predictions, disk space will begin running low at <time/date>, and will run out completely at <time/date>." This would be useful information for everyone, and it makes the chromatic scale a redundant quick at-a-glance indicator that the color-blind could get by without.How ever that can easily be fixed by using colors that the hue is light/medium/dark or dark/medium/light with colors that also make sense.If this can be done in such a way that it's still a green->yellow->red scale, then I'd say this would be perfect. Maybe this calls for some experimentation in Photoshop.Now it sounds like "this might just be a near-perfect FSI".I think we may actually be getting close for once, but do the naysayers agree?The chromatic scale should take care of the play between "there is this much room now" and "I need to start deleting stuff soon".An additional text warning would also make this information more concrete, as well as helping the color-blind.I like Deven's plan with the suggestions I made. Because it takes care of hard numbers that TiVo knows for shure. and the addition of the colors gives a reasonably good prediction of the future.Can we all come to an agreement on what confidence level we'd want to see on a DirecTivo? Is 99.865% good enough? Is it better to show a range or the low bound of the range? (I prefer the range, I think.) For standalones, should every recording quality be shown, or just the default one, maybe in an input field that can be changed to see the estimate for other qualities?So heres a direction I would like to see FSI take.
I'd like to see if it can be battle tested in TC to figure out other kinks.
Some kind moderator to sticky the result to get more kinks out. The idea here being TC in its way doing a good chunk of TiVo Inc.'s market research. With that it would help them out in getting to go forward with FSI. Plus if someone that has the authority at TiVo to tell us why they haven't added it. Witch means they would say specific things that we (TC'ers) could think of and explain in detail. To come up with a way to fix that problem. Then after all that it should be the perfect FSI.

Hopefully the next thing would be limited beta testing.:):):):)We've literally been debating this issue for 3-4 years now. First I'd like to see consensus here in this forum. If we can achieve that and come up with a concrete proposal (complete with simulated screenshots), maybe that could be presented to TiVo for hopeful implementation. However, I don't think it makes sense to try to draw TiVo into the debate until we can resolve our own differences. But maybe we're finally getting closer for once? I await feedback from naysayers. :)

[DevdogAZ]

Originally posted by Deven
We've literally been debating this issue for 3-4 years now. First I'd like to see consensus here in this forum. If we can achieve that and come up with a concrete proposal (complete with simulated screenshots), maybe that could be presented to TiVo for hopeful implementation. However, I don't think it makes sense to try to draw TiVo into the debate until we can resolve our own differences. But maybe we're finally getting closer for once? I await feedback from naysayers.
You're never going to get consensus in this forum about anything, let alone an FSI. The makeup of the forum is simply too diverse. There are too many people out there, for whatever reason, who feel threatened by those of us that want more information from our TiVo. They claim there is no use for an FSI. If they really believe that, fine. However, they would not be harmed by TiVo developing one anyway. They don't have to use it. Why they persist in undermining our efforts to get one added is beyond me.

I would love to see an FSI of any kind, and I think the vast majority of TiVo users couldn't care less what form it takes, as long as it presents valid information in a reasonable format. Asking the user to manually calculate this figure is simply asinine. I think the FSI being proposed above would work just fine, but it seems far too complex to me. However, if that is the form an FSI takes, I will not complain. I just want to see something implemented that give the user the information that should be easy to calculate.

I have seen a screenshot (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=2500) of the type of FSI I would love to see. It's simply a page that displays the number of hours used and the number used for certain types of recordings, etc. It is very simple, yet held all of the information one would need. The person who posted it claimed the code for it is already built in to the TiVo code but it was abandoned due to the algorithims calculating more total space than the HD actually has.

As for fixing the disk management system, I would like to see that as well but it's a completely different issue than an FSI. They could be used in conjunction with one another but they do not go hand in hand.

[BrettStah]

Here's my point of view in a nutshell:

Most people want to know when their Tivo is going to run out of space, which will cause one or more recordings to be lost.

So, if it's possible for a Tivo to tell me when I'm going to run out of space, then that is the ideal thing to have, in my opinion.

With just a FSI that tells me current free space, I don't have enough information to know when I'll start losing recordings. So a modified FSI that can (relatively) accurately predict when I'll start losing shows will be very handy for me.

But I don't see why/how knowing that I have 34 hours/%/GB free is adding much useful information that I really need if I also am told that I won't lose recordings due to lack of space until next Thursday.

[star_treking]

Originally posted by Deven
Well, the chromatic scale could be combined with text-based warnings as well, so anyone who can't see the colors can read the text. Even for those who can see the colors, the text could give a specific time -- "Warning: Based on current predictions, disk space will begin running low at <time/date>, and will run out completely at <time/date>." This would be useful information for everyone, and it makes the chromatic scale a redundant quick at-a-glance indicator that the color-blind could get by without.

The warnings couldn't go on "Tivo Central" because its already crowded with what TiVo Inc. already shows

"Now Playing" could host a minimalist FSI color bar and percentage would work.

"TiVo Messages & Setup" could host a in depth FSI its out of the way of *most* people but provides room for allot of writing.

Then again the warnings could be added to the current warnings that already exist.

Originally posted by Deven
Originally posted by star_treking
I'd like to see if it can be battle tested in TC to figure out other kinks.
Some kind moderator to sticky the result to get more kinks out. The idea here being TC in its way doing a good chunk of TiVo Inc.'s market research. With that it would help them out in getting to go forward with FSI. Plus if someone that has the authority at TiVo to tell us why they haven't added it. Witch means they would say specific things that we (TC'ers) could think of and explain in detail. To come up with a way to fix that problem. Then after all that it should be the perfect FSI.

We've literally been debating this issue for 3-4 years now. First I'd like to see consensus here in this forum. If we can achieve that and come up with a concrete proposal (complete with simulated screen shots), maybe that could be presented to TiVo for hopeful implementation. However, I don't think it makes sense to try to draw TiVo into the debate until we can resolve our own differences. But maybe we're finally getting closer for once? I await feedback from naysayers.

So lets start resolving them.

I like G/Y/R because it shows allot of information in a small space. I do also like text too.
Deven likes text it can show everything thats going on.

Originally posted by devdogaz
I have seen a screenshot (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=2500) of the type of FSI I would love to see.


that would go great in "TiVo Messages & Setup" because theres plenty of room.

Now where getting somewhere 2 posters agree on a standard [arbitrary number -2] more people to get out of this deadlock.

[TivoGeezer]

Originally posted by Deven
<snip>I literally spend 20 minutes or more a night extending expiration times to make sure I don't lose anything I care about. Really? Wow, you are really running with these two machines full. Why don't you watch and delete some of that stuff. If I was doing that, I would really take stock on what I was recording and how important it really is. If I have something I want to keep for future watching, I make it SUID. Otherwise, I watch it and then either leave it for the Tivo to delete or delete it myself. I don't think I have extended the expiration on more than a handful of shows in 3 1/2 years of Tivo.

It does not sound like an FSI is going to help with that.

[star_treking]

Deven This part of the FSI should be acceptable
it meets a the needs listed:
easy to read
numbers to provide info
small dosen't clutter up Tivo's display so much
(theoretically) reduce phone calls

If vegaspl says its readable then it would meet the Color blindness test


This idea would be small enough to fit in "now playing on TiVo" on the bottom
A more indepth FSI should be placed in "TiVo Messages & Setup".
These are crude text drawings but you should be able to see the idea
Plenty of space

green always means space problems not a concern
█████████████████████████████ 98.6% Full
this would show up when its full, and it knows there are allot of expired programs that can be deleted
█████████████████████████████ 50.2% Full
half way there no foreseeable problems yet
█████████████████████████████ 13.8% Full
Very Few programs recorded and it knows there wont be any scheduling prelims
your getting close
█████████████████████████████ 74.9% Full
There is a handfull of deleteable programs but you may have to delete some programs soon to record everything with in 7 days on the to do list
█████████████████████████████ 54.3% Full
another example
█████████████████████████████ 9.4% Full
I dont think that this exampe will be likely but posable
Huston we got a problem
█████████████████████████████ 89.3% Full
All your program are SUID/KUID. Make your room.
█████████████████████████████ 53.9 %Full
There is not enough space to record everything you have planed with in the next 24hrs you need to delete some more stuff to make room
And Of course what TiVo looks like fresh out of the box
█████████████████████████████ .2% Full
Livebuffer



vegaspl Does this get you seal of approval?

[vegaspl]

vegaspl Does this get you seal of approval? Not completely! Actually Green and Yellow can be indistinguishable to me at times.

Colors have to be bright and far from each other. Example: Green/Blue/Red.

[star_treking]

Originally posted by vegaspl
Colors have to be bright and far from each other. Example: Green/Blue/Red.

I'll repost with blue instead of yellow

Plenty of space
█████████████████████████████ 98.6% Full

█████████████████████████████ 50.2% Full

█████████████████████████████ 13.8% Full

your getting close
█████████████████████████████ 74.9% Full

█████████████████████████████ 54.3% Full

█████████████████████████████ 9.4% Full

Huston we got a problem
█████████████████████████████ 89.3% Full

█████████████████████████████ 53.9 %Full

█████████████████████████████ .2% Full

Actually blue looks better for TiVo's FSI. It goes better with TiVo's color scheme. Deven, This look good?

Anyone else have any improvements you'd like to see in this concept FSI?

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by star_treking
I'll repost with blue instead of yellow

Plenty of space
█████████████████████████████ 98.6% Full
So if it is 98.6% full, why is there "plenty of space"? Is it because it has calculated that the remaining free space won't be used in the near-term future?

[star_treking]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Originally posted by Star_treking
Plenty of space
█████████████████████████████ 98.6% Full



So if it is 98.6% full, why is there "plenty of space"? Is it because it has calculated that the remaining free space won't be used in the near-term future?

In this example the total number of programs equals 98.6% of record-able space. How ever not all of that is SUID/KUID.

This scenario may not be a real person but it is to explain why its possible to be near full and have plenty of space to record.

We will look at this scenario more closely.
Will assume this person saves some movies for SUID say around 20% of recording space. This person is just like everyone else here, records filler shows and watches series he/she will save (we will say)8% of all episodes for SUID. That brings the total SUID to 28%. Then theres the other episodes that this person will just let TiVo delete. So TiVo calculates that 70.6% (or 72% of all space) of whats recorded can be deleted as needed.

[BrettStah]

Ah, gotcha.

My preference would be for some indicator showing when the first non-suggestion is going to be deleted. Anything else, such as your color bars, could be helpful as well potentially, but I still think that the main thing that most people want to know is whenthey'll start to lose their recordings.

[star_treking]

TiVo already has that, just open it. But your right the reporting could be done better.

There would only be one color bar if its placed in "a high traffic area".

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by star_treking
TiVo already has that, just open it. But your right the reporting could be done better.

There would only be one color bar if its placed in "a high traffic area". Tivo already has what? There's no place that indicates when the first non-suggestion is going to be deleted due to lack of space on any of my Tivos.

[star_treking]

by "non-suggestion" if you mean something you recorded. go in to the program. Theres a line of text near the horazontle center of the screen saying "this program may/will be (yada yada)". You have to go in to each one to figure out witch ones are next.

[BrettStah]

The current line says something like the following for expired recordings:
This program may be deleted to make room for newer programs.

And something like the following for non-expired ones:
This program will be saved until at least Tue 3/23 10:00 am.

Here's what I want... if a show can be predicted to have a date/time at which is will have to be deleted, I want a line that says something like this:
This program is scheduled to be deleted on Tue 3/23 at 11:00 am to make room for a newer program.

If, based on the available space, existing recordings and upcoming recordings the Tivo will not have to delete a recording due to lack of space, a line something like the following:
This program is not currently scheduled to be deleted.

I'm not certain that existing Tivos, especially the first generation ones, can properly handle the extra workload that would be involved, however. The calculations that would be involved appear simple... just add up existing recordings and upcoming recordings, check available space, do some conservative estimating as needed, but the Tivos could already be maxed out with existing things to do.

[nabsltd]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Here's what I want... if a show can be predicted to have a date/time at which is will have to be deleted, I want a line that says something like this:
This program is scheduled to be deleted on Tue 3/23 at 11:00 am to make room for a newer program.A great idea, especially because all the current tricks that people say are good enough to estimate free space are useless with the HD DirecTiVos.

Recordings can literally have any bitrate from about 0.5GB/hour to 9GB/hour. So, adding up suggestions, or adding up current recordings, or any other trick is useless.

In addition, the possibility that a HD-movie recorded as a suggestion could wipe out nearly 30 hours of SD suggestions (likewise for an ARWL and regular shows) makes your "will be deleted" warning a great idea. We know TiVo can do the calculations, because sometimes it warns you about it when scheduling a recording...just let it do it in the background and we would be happy.

[metech]

[Originally posted elsewhere...I looked but didn't see this thread...Modified after some thought]

Actually it’s not that difficult a proposition to forecast capacity and utilization (which is what we are talking about). I couldn't image working on my PC and wondering if there was enough room to save the document I am currently working on or if the database I'm populating (since it's dynamic) will have enough room to grow. Current state is all that's important initially.

Yes, there are quite a number of permutations; however, the basic information for current state already exists. These are fundamental system issues. As I said, it's not that difficult to at least give a ball park:

1) System checks disk space (it already does this if you look in system info) to determine capacity.
2) System subtracts overhead (it already does this...the size stated in system info has already subtracted admin utilization)
3) The system adds up overhead and recorded utilization and subtracts that from the gross disk size.
4) The system simply has to report 3 numbers like this: 2:4:6 (on the progress bar or maybe on the information screen to which a disclaimer can be added). Those three numbers are space remaining by quality -- Best Quality:Medium:Worst
4a) Alternative: 4 numbers-- 30::2:4:6 This would be MB left::Best:Medium:Worst (one can consider color coding the numbers as well)
4b) Alternative: 5 numbers -- 30::2:4:6:[3] This would be MB left::Best:Medium:Worst:[Scheduled]. If you over book put a different bracket around the scheduled {} <> !! and make it bold and in red.


I would grant you that this would not be the most precise; however, it wouldn't take long for the user to get the feel for what wiggle room you have left and do a little Kentucky Windage on your estimates.

Out of the above approach, the following information already exists:

1) Disk Size
2) Admin Utilization
3) Recorded Program Utilization
4) Disk Size capacity per Quality selection
5) What is scheduled

Yes, it does know what has been planned and uses that when deciding to set something up to record. Respectfully, just set to record and log an insufficient space message if it can’t. The DVR knows that you’ve setup to record more than you have space to record, it doesn’t know why you did it or what’s more important to you; the show you are setting up to record or the show already scheduled.

[Robert S]

[Replying from here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1877690#post1877690).]

I don't have anything special to say about PC utilisation. The point was that a PC can only tell you how much space is left on the disk. Although it can present this is various ways, it has no idea what you're planning to do and assumes that all files are to be kept forever. Therefore, it's up to you to manage your storage.

The TiVo has a very good idea of all those things and can take most of the load off you.

Same thing with a car. A car that knows your driving habits and will tell you when you next need to fill up might be neat. The thought of having to add up your day's upcoming journeys and trying to figure out if you've got enough gas or not isn't very appealing, though.

I'm wondering if you have everything set to 'Save until I delete'. The TiVo won't normally refuse to record something, instead it'll give you a date when things will be deleted early.

I also watch everything I record (I don't use suggestsions) and my TiVo is also pretty close to full all the time, so it sounds like our approach to using TiVo is similar.

What I do is bump up the Save Until times on the recordings I need to keep longer than the default time. For recordings that are going to have to be there a while, I set them to SUID after they've been recorded. The effect of this is to push the long-term recordings down the list, leaving a couple of pages of recordings that must be kept indefinitely, but are not SUID.

This gives the TiVo enough wiggle room to keep scheduling recordings automatically, because a lot of the recordings get watched and deleted within hours. Things therefore tighten up gradually - I frequently get warnings that something is going to be deleted early (it's often just a few minutes early) as more stuff piles on, the warnings get shorter and shorter. In a real crunch, the TiVo will give the exact time that things will become an emergency, so I know /when/ I've got to have the space cleared.

So occasionally I find myself adding up space to work out what needs to be done to get through the crunch, but it's rarely more than one or two hours worth.

Some people use SUID routinely ("Because I want to watch it before it's deleted"), but that breaks the TiVo's ability to manage the space for you. You asked how the TiVo knows which recording is more important, well, setting the Save Until date is how you communicate that to the TiVo - a longer SU means that other recordings will be deleted first.

[BrettStah]

I use SUID for our "must watch" stuff... things we know we definitely are going to watch, like The Sopranos, NYPD Blue, etc. We record a bunch of other things that are not that important to us to definitely not miss... kid shows, news programs, SportsCenter, some syndicated stuff like Seinfeld, NewsRadio, etc. that we've seen all the episodes of before, etc. All of these "non-important" stuff (or "don't have to watch" stuff) is set to keep only a few episodes each, and we definitely will never have time to watch it all. But when we're in the mood for an old Seinfeld, we have a few to choose from at any time. Or I can fast-forward throught the most recently recorded SportsCenter to see highlights of the day's games, etc.

The "must-watch" stuff probably takes up about 5-25% of our total space, depending upon the time of year, etc. Sometimes we'll let many episodes (maybe an entire season) of a show pile up for one reason or another, and then have our own mini-marathon over the course of a week or so. Having them SUID means we know that they'll never fall down through the cracks and be deleted to make room for a news show.

[metech]

Robert S:

[Rober S] "I don't have anything special to say about PC utilisation. The point was that a PC can only tell you how much space is left on the disk. Although it can present this is various ways, it has no idea what you're planning to do and assumes that all files are to be kept forever. Therefore, it's up to you to manage your storage."

[Metech] Yes, for most users I would agree. I work in technology so I address capacity a bit differently. I do get notifications on usage and usage patterns. Most of my stuff is version controlled with timeouts etc on documents and number of versions. There is definitely a parallel here with what I'd like to see with Tivo. As you noted or intimated this may be an order of complexity more than what needs to be address.

[Metech] Having said that and responding more to the body of your post, there are additional elements that I need to take into consideration v your usage patterns.

My wife and I have different tastes. The things she records are not always to my liking so I don't know if she has viewed them or even how important they are to her as I pick the things I want to record. We consistently have discussion about what we need to watch, clear off, and plan for from both our perspectives. It is usually me saying: "We only have two hours of space before something is going to get deleted or we run out." She doesn't have a good handle on what amount of space we have left.

We don't use the save until I delete feature very much. Only for the most important recordings. I have to say that Tivo provides good features for managing space etc; however, it just isn’t sophisticated enough for my family's viewing habits. Since I’m big on allegory (as you’ve probably noted), you can have your retirement fund managed by someone else, you can manage some of it and the “pros” the rest, or you can do it yourself. My goal with Tivo is to participate in the management. With that said: You cannot manage what you cannot measure.

The suggestion to go with the numbered current state format -- 30::2:4:5:[5] -- method is very comfortable, at least for me, in facilitating discussion around our recording plans and viewing habits. As noted previously, I work in technology. I am surrounded by routers, hubs, servers, and the related management software of same. Over the years I have developed the habit of keeping an eye on the status lights which give me a feel what's going on with the system. The behavior of a link status light or a hard drive access light tells me a lot about what is going on with the system. As you probably know, all systems have personalities. Getting to know them helps you work with them.

How does the numbered format I laid out map back to the previous paragraph? Consistently knowing where we sit will help us plan our individual recording schedules. As we eat diner or are in the car, it will be easy enough to say: We have 2 hours free, 3 hours scheduled, and I want to record "CSI" later this week; what do you have planned?

This post was not intended to explain all the nuances of everyone's viewing habits and what would be usable features for everyone. I tend to think that a majority of people will use this or any other FSI if it were available to varying degrees.

Personal note: You have made your position known that this is not a prized feature for you yet you continue to respond to my posts. Why? Is FSI of interest to you or are you more interested in an intellectual discussion/debate?

--Metech (as always, absent malice)

[mll]

Originally posted by devdogaz
You're never going to get consensus in this forum about anything, ...

I have seen a screenshot (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=2500) of the type of FSI I would love to see. It's simply a page that displays the number of hours used and the number used for certain types of recordings, etc. It is very simple, yet held all of the information one would need. The person who posted it claimed the code for it is already built in to the TiVo code but it was abandoned due to the algorithims calculating more total space than the HD actually has.



Except for formatting I agree that the simple numeric listing is adiquate for me. Of course I'd like more, but it looks as though this is a start. My advise would be to re-enable this as an easly accessable page or put it at the bottom of other pages as possible. I'd also prefer:

1) Remove the total disk size as numbers may not add up, I don't care how big my disk is when I am scheduling, just how much free-ish space there is.

2) Left adjust the numbers so that they line up.

3) If info were added, then it might be useful to estimate how much space would be available next week, if all the programs, suggestions that could be, would be deleted and all the programs that were scheduled would be recorded, but as this is a "soft" number, and others might prefer others, I make this as a minor thought, and really want, as a minimum:

Keep 0 , Regular 10 , Expired 5 , Suggestions 24, Free 5 (Hr@basic)

[voripteth]

I would also like to see the times calculated for the default recording mode, not "basic". I NEVER record at basic.

[classicsat]

I have autospace.tcl installed and like that one. Under normal circumstances, I'd like to keep 25% free (of an 80 Gig HDD), but since I want to wipe the system, I want to catch up on my TV ASAP.

[DJRobX]

I would leave hours out of it. Just use percentages. I can figure out on my own the general size of my own recordings. As pointed out, 1 hour of HD recording could be a dozen or more hours of standard def. If you have a mix-mash of different types of recordings, an hour estimate is meaningless. The same goes for SA users who may record some things at Best and others at basic.

With a percentage-based FSI I can easily look at the FSI, record an hour of HD, and look at the FSI again to get a feel for the amount of space taken up by a show. Much like how you guess at when you're going to need to fill up at a gas station next based on looking at your fuel indicator as you drive.

My Motorola 6208 has a simple percentage indicator on the now playing list equivalent. As a PVR it completely sucks compared to TiVo, but the FSI is extremely useful and nice to have. If this sorry excuse for PVR software has a FSI it's kind of ridicuous that TiVo doesn't have one by now.

-- Rob

[gapboy9m]

How come there are so many people who think this and are paying for tivo service... yet tivo still hasnt made this change...hmmmmm... is tivo listening?

[newsposter]

Originally posted by gapboy9m
How come there are so many people who think this and are paying for tivo service... yet tivo still hasnt made this change...hmmmmm... is tivo listening?

the same reason we only have S O R T instead of folders on dtivo

[vegaspl]

Originally posted by DJRobX


...My Motorola 6208 has a simple percentage indicator on the now playing list equivalent. As a PVR it completely sucks compared to TiVo, but the FSI is extremely useful and nice to have. If this sorry excuse for PVR software has a FSI it's kind of ridicuous that TiVo doesn't have one by now.

-- Rob

My Zenith HD Recorder falls in the same catagory. It sucks compared to TiVo but it does show time remaining.

[Joe Q]

Same with the DISH 921.
I shows both space(time) remaing for SD material and HD material.

[Belgand]

I too find it absolutely amazing that this isn't present. I mean, it would take, what, 5 minutes to kludge something in from the OS? Tack on some graphics if needed (or just leave it under the "system information" as plain text in Megabytes or percentage free/full) and you're done.

[PORSCHE]

How about it's so important that i will probably use my toshiba at tivo basic and get a replay that suppose to have this function.

[voripteth]

For me, a free space indicator is just a "nice to have" feature that I wouldn't use that often. I leave suggestions turned on and when there are only a few suggestions left I know I'm running out of space. Simple!

Now I grant that space isn't as much of a problem for me since I have an upgraded TiVo. Are most of the people who want the FSI have stock units with a small amount of storage?

I wonder what it will take for TiVo to actually listen to the suggestions in this forum and release an update with significant content?

[dadonnelly1961]

It would be more useful (and I would be a bit happier with my TiVo service) if we could have the option of turning off some of the extra 'stuff' (I won't use the word that I REALLY want to use...) that they dump onto our machines. I mean, don't we already see previews for what's coming on our favorite channels? And, why does it put stuff on there for channels to which we don't subscribe? Lastly, let us have more control over what gets recordered out of 'TiVo Suggestions' list. I HATE having to 'thumbs down' shows that I like just because they are in syndication!

[sad05]

I think it's interesting and a not a little bit sad that those top requested features have been here on the forums since 2002?!?!

And how many have actually been rolled out? hmmmm none?

So why do even bother with these threads? Why don't they just tack on a post at the end of the Frequently Made Suggestions thread that says "thanks for reading this - oh yeah, we're not doing ANY of these. Don't forget to pay your Tivo bill!"

I do seriously enjoy having a dvr but I have to ask myself why I'm paying extra for the Tivo service when there are other dvr options.

*Extra Special Kudos*
Extra Special Kudos to those of you who actually spent a good deal of time last year devising a workable scheme of showing available space to present to Tivo. I mean, you were trying to show Tivo how to do their job, how easily it could be done ... and still nothing came from it.