Supernatural - 9/18/08 w/ spoilers [Text View]

balboa dave

09-19-2008, 07:46 AM

I had pretty much guessed the new "big bad" would be an angel after seeing the fear in the demons, since that is the next step up their hierarchy, although I did expect it to be Lucifer. It was almost a little anticlimatic when he showed up, but I prefer underplayed to overplayed, so it was still cool. I really like how the network has kept their hands off this show and just let it be what it is.

Rob Helmerichs

09-19-2008, 08:34 AM

jamesbobo

09-19-2008, 09:14 AM

JYoung

09-19-2008, 10:48 AM

The only thing I found odd was that Dean found it hard to believe that there were angels. With everything supernatural he has witnessed, why would he think there were no angels?

Otherwise, great show.

Because Dean feels he's had almost everything taken from him.
First, their mother and then their father plus numerous friends.
(Plus Dean's a humanist at heart. When they can't save someone who's pretty much innocent, he takes it very hard.)
And he's had no chance for a normal life.

Plus with all the evil he's seen, I could see where he would think that there is no God because (in his mind) no loving God would allow all of this to happen.

Good episode. The reunions with Bobby and Sam were well done.
While I'm disappointed that it appears that Katie Cassidy is gone, it's interesting to see that Ruby is still around.

So Sam has teamed with a demon and Dean an angel.
Hmmmmmm.

Rob Helmerichs

09-19-2008, 11:24 AM

So Sam has teamed with a demon and Dean an angel.
Hmmmmmm.
So which is the "good" guy?

I'm betting the angel has left the reservation...

jradford

09-19-2008, 11:52 AM

...So Sam has teamed with a demon and Dean an angel.
Hmmmmmm.

This is going to end with one of them having to kill the other. Isn't this the last season? (I might be making that up.)

Overall, I thought it was a great episode. Getting Dean out of hell quickly and setting up the season at the same time was really well done.

Enrique

09-19-2008, 11:55 AM

I had pretty much guessed the new "big bad" would be an angel after seeing the fear in the demons, since that is the next step up their hierarchy, although I did expect it to be Lucifer.+1 I was guessing Lucifer up until the last second. But if this "guy" is an angel why did the demon say "he is the end" or something like that?

Edit: Oh, And thanks OP for posting this topic, Forgot that it was restarting last night.

sean67854

09-19-2008, 11:56 AM

This is going to end with one of them having to kill the other. Isn't this the last season? (I might be making that up.)

Overall, I thought it was a great episode. Getting Dean out of hell quickly and setting up the season at the same time was really well done.

I like that they didn't cop out and have it be something cheap like now Sam made a deal.

BTW, what the heck is Sam? Lilith can't hurt him and he can psychically banish demons?

Enrique

09-19-2008, 12:00 PM

This is going to end with one of them having to kill the other. Isn't this the last season? (I might be making that up.)

Overall, I thought it was a great episode. Getting Dean out of hell quickly and setting up the season at the same time was really well done.http://tvoholic.com/news/supernatural-losing-dean-soon-to-enter-its-final-season/

Thats the way it looks. It will suck not getting new Supernatural shows.

sean67854

09-19-2008, 12:06 PM

http://tvoholic.com/news/supernatural-losing-dean-soon-to-enter-its-final-season/

Thats the way it looks. It will suck not getting new Supernatural shows.

Doesn't that article say 5 seasons? This is the 4th season, right?

Enrique

09-19-2008, 12:13 PM

Doesn't that article say 5 seasons? This is the 4th season, right?Right, Sorry. Yes this is Season 4 and the article say 5 seasons.

Enrique

09-19-2008, 12:49 PM

Anybody hoping they might bring the big guys (Lucifer and God) into the mix before it's all said and done?

Rob Helmerichs

09-19-2008, 01:38 PM

Anybody hoping they might bring the big guys (Lucifer and God) into the mix before it's all said and done?
Slim and none (in that order)...

JYoung

09-19-2008, 07:07 PM

So which is the "good" guy?

I'm betting the angel has left the reservation...

I'm sure that it won't be black and white.

Also consider that Dean would be considered the "bad boy" of the two while Sam is "the good one".

Rob Helmerichs

09-19-2008, 07:24 PM

I'm sure that it won't be black and white.
Well, in a show that's about good and evil, I suspect that in the end it WILL be black and white.

But I also suspect you're right in that the road to black and white clarity will have lots of twists and turns along the way!

Crrink

09-20-2008, 01:16 AM

This show started out mildly interesting, and then just started getting better and better. And better. The way they keep ramping things up, I figure there's got to be a limit; hopefully, the show will last exactly that long, no more, no less.

Couldn't agree more. When the show began it was a cool action show with some light humor and great buddy interaction between the brothers.
They've managed to retain all of that and mix in season long story arc's that build suspense, but give a fair amount of resolution by the next season's premier.
Makes for a great show.
Sorry to see next season will be the last, but if they have time to tell the story properly, it'll be a more satisfying end than most series get.

danterner

09-20-2008, 10:11 AM

I feel similarly. Over time, Supernatural has grown to be one of my favorite shows. I'm now blogging about it for the "Television Zombies" podcast and blog. Recap is here (http://www.televisionzombies.com/2008/09/20/supernatural-lazarus-rising/), if anyone is interested.

IDSmoker

09-20-2008, 11:41 AM

The only thing I found odd was that Dean found it hard to believe that there were angels. With everything supernatural he has witnessed, why would he think there were no angels?I seem to vaguely remember one of the brothers mentioning early on in the series that all of the supernatural 'things' they've ever encountered were evil.

If Dean has never come across a 'good' supernatural creature, it would be understandable that he would have difficulty believing in the existence of angels.

...
While I'm disappointed that it appears that Katie Cassidy is gone, it's interesting to see that Ruby is still around.
...I definitely prefer the original Ruby to the new Ruby. I will miss Ms. Cassidy.
:(

What makes you so special?

I like to think it's because of my perky nipples:D

mrmike

09-20-2008, 12:02 PM

I definitely prefer the original Ruby to the new Ruby. I will miss Ms. Cassidy.

I like the gal from Wildfire. Old Ruby was good too, but I'm willing to give the new one a chance.

Amnesia

09-20-2008, 06:44 PM

I had pretty much guessed the new "big bad" would be an angel after seeing the fear in the demons (...)I'm certainly not convinced it is an angel.

Yes, it claimed it was an angel and yes, the demon-killer knife didn't affect it. Oh, and yes, it could manifest some black smoky wings.

That doesn't add up to "angel" in my book. How about the ol' holy water test? That would go some ways to show it's not evil. (BTW: I loved it when Bobby splashed Dean.)

And if the self-professed angel is so "holy", why did it leave those marks on Dean's shoulder?

balboa dave

09-20-2008, 07:32 PM

I'm certainly not convinced it is an angel.

Yes, it claimed it was an angel and yes, the demon-killer knife didn't affect it. Oh, and yes, it could manifest some black smoky wings.

That doesn't add up to "angel" in my book. How about the ol' holy water test? That would go some ways to show it's not evil. (BTW: I loved it when Bobby splashed Dean.)

And if the self-professed angel is so "holy", why did it leave those marks on Dean's shoulder?I don't know what you think angels are in the Christian mythology, maybe you're thinking of Touched by an Angel, or even It's a Wonderful Life, but they are neither "good" nor "evil", rather very powerful beings created before the human race. I intentionally used the name Lucifer, as that is the most common name for the original fallen angel. Try and find the movie The Prophecy, with Christopher Walken as Gabriel. I think it's very likely that the angels of Supernatural are inspired by this movie, and others in its vein, which were in turn inspired by stories based on passages from the bible.

innocentfreak

09-20-2008, 08:54 PM

Liked the episode also, one thing that was weird though is the show almost looked like it was a zoomed in widescreen. It didn't have the appearance of pan and scan but a lot of the lettering was slightly off the screen usually the first letter or os. The same thing happened to me on Smallville this week.

Amnesia

09-20-2008, 11:53 PM

I think it's very likely that the angels of Supernatural are inspired by this movie, and others in its vein, which were in turn inspired by stories based on passages from the bible.Perhaps, but whether or not angels are good or evil in Supernatural has no bearing on whether that creature was an angel---again, all we really know is that it claims it's an angel.

balboa dave

09-21-2008, 02:18 AM

JYoung

09-21-2008, 04:03 AM

Perhaps, but whether or not angels are good or evil in Supernatural has no bearing on whether that creature was an angel---again, all we really know is that it claims it's an angel.

Everyone else does knows it is. We'll give you time to catch up.

Amnesia has a point.
I'm not 100% convinced that it's an angel either.
The issue with the burn marks on Dean's shoulders has given me some doubt.

Now it may very well be an angel, but I'll bet he's not "officially sanctioned".

balboa dave

09-21-2008, 04:47 AM

Amnesia has a point.
I'm not 100% convinced that it's an angel either.
The issue with the burn marks on Dean's shoulders has given me some doubt.

Now it may very well be an angel, but I'll bet he's not "officially sanctioned".So you've seen The Prophecy and know what I'm talking about? Somehow I doubt it.

Exactly how much power do you think it took to release Dean from Hell and resurrect his body? Didn't you see the scene of devastation emanating radially from his grave. Don't you think it might have been accomplished the laying on by the hand of the angel, and that might have have left the hand-shaped burn mark?

Rob Helmerichs

09-21-2008, 07:05 AM

Exactly how much power do you think it took to release Dean from Hell and resurrect his body? Didn't you see the scene of devastation emanating radially from his grave. Don't you think it might have been accomplished the laying on by the hand of the angel, and that might have have left the hand-shaped burn mark?
Of course it MIGHT have been. But earlier you were insisting that it MUST have been, and that's just not so.

Personally, I agree that it probably is an angel. But there's absolutely no reason why it HAS to be an angel; it just seems likely at this point that it is.

JYoung

09-21-2008, 02:25 PM

So you've seen The Prophecy and know what I'm talking about? Somehow I doubt it.

No, I haven't seen the The Prophecy but since neither you or I know for a fact that the producers of Supernatural are using it as a basis for their Angel mythology, what you have posted is sheer speculation on your part.
And Amnesia simply has another direction of speculation.
At this time, they are both equally valid.

Exactly how much power do you think it took to release Dean from Hell and resurrect his body? Didn't you see the scene of devastation emanating radially from his grave. Don't you think it might have been accomplished the laying on by the hand of the angel, and that might have have left the hand-shaped burn mark?

I'm certainly willing to entertain that line of speculation as well at this point.

balboa dave

09-21-2008, 05:11 PM

Of course it MIGHT have been. But earlier you were insisting that it MUST have been, and that's just not so.

Personally, I agree that it probably is an angel. But there's absolutely no reason why it HAS to be an angel; it just seems likely at this point that it is.Please don't confuse my mildly Socratic approach with changing my position. The writers have always been consistent in their straight forward dealing with the plot lines and subject material. Unlike the Buffyverse, where they threw almost every supernatural mythology into the mix, Christian as well as Lovecraftian, and did it well of course, this show has almost always stuck with real world urban legends and the Christian mythology. If there's demons and hell, there's a devil, and since the devil is a fallen angel, there's other angels. I didn't expect them to go in this direction, but am immensely pleased they have. Whether the story escalates into a battle for Heaven remains to be seen. It seems most likely they'll keep the dynamics between Sam and Dean and their respective souls, but I know I'm going to enjoy whatever direction it takes.

Rob Helmerichs

09-21-2008, 06:08 PM

balboa dave

09-21-2008, 07:59 PM

Well, perhaps I have misunderstood you then. Amnesia said he's not convinced the guy really is an angel--not that angels don't exist, just that this being might be lying; you seemed to say in no uncertain terms that he IS an angel. That certainty is what I was responding to; there is, of course, no reason why he HAS to be an angel (although again, I suspect he really is).

But when you say "Everyone else does knows it is. We'll give you time to catch up", you seem to leave little doubt that not only is he really an angel, but that Amnesia is too stupid to have figured it out like everybody else. I guess I must be stupid too, because like Amnesia, I am not yet fully convinced...Except every post you and others made did talk about the angel as a given. I guess my error was thinking you all understood the actual Christian mythology of angels.

I was pointing out his reasons for thinking it wasn't an angel were wrong. There are no other beings in this show's mythology it could be except an angel. Angels aren't affected by holy water. I eventually described why the marks were there, but I thought everyone understood what the angel said. Angels aren't even good or evil, that is Man's burden.

And finally, when have the writers ever felt it was necessary to not be straight forward with the dialog, plot and action. He said he was an angel, he had an angel's powers, and everything about his arrival was clearly explained. He's an angel.

Amnesia

09-21-2008, 09:13 PM

I guess my error was thinking you all understood the actual Christian mythology of angels.I believe that we are (or at least should be) discussing the Supernatural show's mythology of angels, not the Christian mythology or any other religion's mythology. IIRC, the show freely mixes Christian and other mythologies into its own.

I was pointing out his reasons for thinking it wasn't an angel were wrong. There are no other beings in this show's mythology it could be except an angel.We haven't seen angels in the show (certainly not before this episode), so we have no way of knowing whether or not the being's powers are the same as angels' powers according to the show's mythology. For example, it could be that the being is some kind of higher demon that's immune to the knife. That would explain why the lesser demons are afraid (this guy's a super demon) and his immunity to the knife is just one of his particular powers, like Lilith could do telekenesis.

Angels aren't even good or evil, that is Man's burden. We have no way of knowing whether or not angels are good or evil in the show.

And finally, when have the writers ever felt it was necessary to not be straight forward with the dialog, plot and action.Pretty much all the time.

He said he was an angel, he had an angel's powers, and everything about his arrival was clearly explained.He said he was an angel and he had powers. Again---it's not clear what an angel's powers in the show are, so it's a little soon to be claiming that this being had those powers. Hell, it could be that in the show there are no such things as angels. That's certainly what Dean has always believed. Who are we to second-guess Dean? He's lived within the show's mythology all his life...

cheesesteak

09-22-2008, 08:15 AM

Supernatural - the best "under the radar" show on tv.

I believe it's an angel. I just don't believe it's the goody-two-shoes type of angel that most people believe in.

sean67854

09-22-2008, 10:07 AM

Maybe it's an angel, maybe it's not, but the conjecture that angels are neither good nor evil is incorrect in my opinion.

Neither good nor evil implies apathetic, which they clearly aren't in any belief system/book/movie I've ever experienced.

Amnesia

09-22-2008, 10:50 AM

Neither good nor evil implies apatheticNot at all. People (as a whole) aren't good or evil. That doesn't make us all apathetic.

There are numerous books/movies where some angels are "good", others are "evil" and some are just ordinary.

jeepair

09-22-2008, 10:50 AM

I definitely prefer the original Ruby to the new Ruby. I will miss Ms. Cassidy.
:(

:D

Another here wishing for the real Ruby to come back.

I was actually hoping to see an episode or two of Dean teaming up with Bela in hell and both of them escaping. Oh well...

phox_mulder

09-22-2008, 01:20 PM

I believe it's an angel. I just don't believe it's the goody-two-shoes type of angel that most people believe in.

Not remembering that much about The Prophecy, the image I got was Dogma type angels, Bartleby, Loki and Azrael.
Pissed off Cast-Outs trying to get back in with God (not Alanis, although that would make a good "Dean" joke)

phox

jradford

09-22-2008, 02:45 PM

Another here wishing for the real Ruby to come back.

I was actually hoping to see an episode or two of Dean teaming up with Bela in hell and both of them escaping. Oh well...

Has it been established that once you take over a host, you can't return to that host once you leave it? That was my wife's response when I told her I missed the blond.

Also, the guy is an angel. The writers wouldn't pull something gimmicky with that big of an introduction to a new character. That's my opinion. Obviously, that doesn't mean it DEFINITELY is an angel, just that it better be.:D

mrmike

09-22-2008, 03:33 PM

I believe it's an angel. I just don't believe it's the goody-two-shoes type of angel that most people believe in.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"

I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.

I think that the mythos of this show would certainly support that sort of angel. And I (for one) would welcome seeing them do it.