Fringe - "The Same Old Story" - 9/16/08

[MickeS]

That stupid camera ruined this not-that-great-anyway episode for me. That was pure jump-the-shark material, and in only the second episode!

I like the characters a lot though, and the ongoing storyline about the "pattern" and Massive Dynamics can be interesting. But the stand-alone aspect of this episode was embarrassingly predictable - from the moment he opened his tool bag it was clear he was a serial killer, and from the moment the girl was shown with her belly growing, I knew it would be about a rapidly aging baby, and then when they showed the old man dead, well I was sure that the killer tried to stop himself from aging. Yawn. And I'm usually not one to be able to correctly predict this stuff!

[pjenkins]

did you predict the 3 other serial killers at the end?

i liked the episode, it's a keeper (even if it was predictable this time) :)

[503Blunts]

15:01.

Contrived, predictable and boring.

So tired, so fast.

[gchance]

Speaking of the pattern, is this what all the early-summer FOX radio spots were about that all said, "Find the pattern"?

Greg

[jimborst]

I'll keep the SP for now, but it's X-Files with people I just don't care about. The only one I kind of care for is the old scientist, his learning to adapt back into the mainstream may be OK but the rest just meh.

[wprager]

You guys are all spoiled rotten. I won't say this is the best television I've ever seen, but this was a fine episode. So what if you knew right away that the guy would turn out to be a serial killer. Did you not enjoy Millennium for the same reason? And as for the rapidly aging baby, I never expected an old man covered in blood with an umbilical cord sticking out of his belly -- ya gotta admit that was a little unexpected.

And, besides, the *real* point of this episode is to introduce the theme of the scientists *experimenting on their children*. Now we are left to wonder what Walter did to his son. Is his 190 IQ somewhat artificial and, if so, are there any side effects? Oh, and it appears that there be clones -- of course I knew *that* pretty much before I even saw the pilot.

[bottomsup]

Well, I will jump in to say that I really enjoyed it. Predictability on this kind of show is not a game ender for me. That said, I guess I am dense, because I wasn't able to connect all the dots immediately.

Love Walter--one of those gray area characters. I like how they juxtapose his almost at times cuddly helplessness with the horrific things he has worked on.

Totally fascinated by the image burned into the retina. I am easily amused.

I like Olivia/Anna Torv very, very much. She has something...a different look...I guess, that sets her apart.

And I will always have a warm place in my heart for Pacey.

Have some questions about Lydia? at Massive Dynamic, but the kid is waking up...more later.

[Sparty99]

A small area of confusion for me. What was up with the Massive Dynamic woman having an arm this week? Didn't we discover in the Pilot that she had a metal arm?

[LoadStar]

A small area of confusion for me. What was up with the Massive Dynamic woman having an arm this week? Didn't we discover in the Pilot that she had a metal arm?

She wears a fake skin "glove" over it normally. She was shown taking that off in the first episode so that she could show Olivia the arm.

[Magister]

She wears a fake skin "glove" over it normally. She was shown taking that off in the first episode so that she could show Olivia the arm.

That way they don't have to 'Michael Scofield' and keep her in long sleeves and a glove...

I thought it was a pretty cool episode. While the idea of hot hookers is unrealistic, it was interesting. They weren't very gentle with the 'ladies'.

[Sparty99]

She wears a fake skin "glove" over it normally. She was shown taking that off in the first episode so that she could show Olivia the arm.
Ah, ok. Thanks. Did they refer to that in the pilot and I missed it?

[jlb]

Well I am manual recording this on my old AT&TiVo (conflicts starting next week). I haven't watched either episode yet. If it turns out it is not worth watching, it gives me more room for Heroes manual recordings (also a conflict thanks to DWTS being 1.5 hours). OR maybe I'll up the recording quality.

[dswallow]

I really enjoyed the pilot and thought it had a lot of promise.

After watching the second episode I was left impressed by how in just one episode they can devolve into complete and utter predictability and stupidity.

I guess we'll see if they're just burning the crap episodes off early while the JJ Abrams buzz is strong enough to keep people watching, or if this is just an example of what the entire season will bring.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Something like X-Files buys a lot of suspension of disbelief because it was all about fantasy stuff. But when everything is based on real science as in Fringe, they really ought to have at least a faint glimmering of how the science they're talking about works. This is in Galactica's league for sheer ignorance of the concepts they're using.

[dcheesi]

Something like X-Files buys a lot of suspension of disbelief because it was all about fantasy stuff. But when everything is based on real science as in Fringe, they really ought to have at least a faint glimmering of how the science they're talking about works. This is in Galactica's league for sheer ignorance of the concepts they're using.Yep, the whole eye-camera thing was just ridiculous, and the techno-babble they used to try to "hang a lantern on it" just made it worse. So now muscle-relaxers magically freeze neural impulses in the optical pathway? :rolleyes:

[TAsunder]

After watching the second episode I was left impressed by how in just one episode they can devolve into complete and utter predictability and stupidity.

Why was that impressive? I could tell that was going to happen from the pilot. They were clearly setting up a pseudo-science formulaic freak of the week series with the way the pilot ended.

[dswallow]

Why was that impressive? I could tell that was going to happen from the pilot. They were clearly setting up a pseudo-science formulaic freak of the week series with the way the pilot ended.

There's quite a difference between pseudo-science and just pulling rabbits out of hats as needed for each story.

[scsiguy72]

I am on the fence with this show, But getting close to jumping off and moving the SP to the bottom of my list. I will watch it if nothing else conflicts.

I really don't like the Peter Bishop character. All he seems to do is scoff at everything. Very one dimensional

[Sparty99]

Once again I find myself extremely pleased that I'm stupid. I've found the show entertaining. I don't know anything about real science, so pseudo-science isn't all that different to me.

[TAsunder]

There's quite a difference between pseudo-science and just pulling rabbits out of hats as needed for each story.

Ah well, that difference is lost on me I guess. I lump them together.

[GadgetFreak]

Just get it out of the way....Massive Dynamic is owned by Rimbaldi.

[Jeeters]

I didn't like the camera thing either. Was also bothered how I'm supposed to believe a baby can grow into a full size adult without ever being fed - I always thought you need matter to make matter. Also, the guy at the end having his already existing hair suddenly turn grey with age bugged me.

[Magister]

I didn't like the camera thing either. Was also bothered how I'm supposed to believe a baby can grow into a full size adult without ever being fed - I always thought you need matter to make matter. Also, the guy at the end having his already existing hair suddenly turn grey with age bugged me.

I accept it in the way I accept Star Trek science. I just roll with it. Remember the second season of TNG when the old Doctor had her DNA screwed up in the Transporter and started aging, her hair turned grey. I understand the reality, but I just take it in as some of the suspension of disbelief.

This show will eventually talk about remote viewing and other 'fringe science' crap. It won't keep me from enjoying it.

[Donbadabon]

I liked it.

And as much as I complain about copycat shows and game shows, I am happy that there is something a little different out there.

[Ben_Jamin75]

Am I the only one that keeps thinking of Global Dynamics in Eureka when they say Massive Dynamic?

[jimborst]

Am I the only one that keeps thinking of Global Dynamics in Eureka when they say Massive Dynamic?


Yes, I was thinking the same thing. At a show meeting I see...."Let's see we need a big bad corporation, but on another show they have "Global Dynamics" let's make ours Massive Dynamics."

[danterner]

Am I the only one that keeps thinking of Global Dynamics in Eureka when they say Massive Dynamic?

Count me in for this, as well.

Looks like there was a name change for Massive Dynamic at the last minute: in the pilot episode, the close captioning consistently refers to it as "Massive Dynamics" (plural) even though the characters and on-screen logos use the singular. On the website someone posted about the other day (http://www.massivedynamic.com) in the bottom corner it says "Copyright 2008 Massive Dynamics." This is doubtlessly of no significance whatsoever. Just making note of it for the record.

[jwjody]

I liked the episode. Last week someone asked if there was a pattern or code in the symbols they show before a commercial break. In the apple symbol in this episode it looked like two babies in the fetal position in the middle of the apple.

And it looked like there was something on the back of the frog but I haven't gone back to look yet.

J

[MickeS]

I liked the episode. Last week someone asked if there was a pattern or code in the symbols they show before a commercial break. In the apple symbol in this episode it looked like two babies in the fetal position in the middle of the apple.

That's the only one I saw, but I didn't look that closely.

[gossamer88]

I'll keep the SP for now, but it's X-Files with people I just don't care about.

For me this episode in particular had a Silence of the Lambs meets X-Files. I'll keep the SP for now. But I'm not holding my breath.

BTW, for those who miss these episodes, fox.com (http://www.fox.com/fod/play.php?sh=fringe) "HD" stream looks pretty damn good.

[Billyh1026]

The show has potential. So far so good. Not great, but good. Joshua Jackson is a lot better than I thought he'd be. And, Lance Reddick as Broyles is the best cast character on the show. Wish he'd get more screen time. I like how he's playing on both (or is it the same) sides of the fence. Puppetmaster.

Ok, if this sounds mean my apologies ahead of time. Buuuuuuuuut...am I the only one that wishes they'd stop with the close-ups of Anna Torv??? She's just weird/strange/awkward looking that close-up. She's somewhat better looking when her face isn't covering all but a few corner inches of the screen. Meh...maybe it's just me.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I'm keeping the SP for the time being.

But I will say one thing: the "Fringe will return in N seconds" at the start of every commercial break sure makes it easy to 30 second skip past them...

[ahartman]

This was Batman (Adam West style) meets MacGyver meets X-Files.

Halfway through it I was rolling my eyes and ridiculing my wife for liking this show. The pilot was decent but this episode was terrible. One more like this and I'm out.

Anna Torv is just... odd looking. Not cute and not ugly. Just odd.

[hummingbird_206]

I'm keeping the SP for the time being.

But I will say one thing: the "Fringe will return in N seconds" at the start of every commercial break sure makes it easy to 30 second skip past them...

+1

Every time Joshua Jackson is on the screen all I can see is that huge furrow between his eyebrows. Someone get that boy some botox!

[getbak]

But I will say one thing: the "Fringe will return in N seconds" at the start of every commercial break sure makes it easy to 30 second skip past them...
Except for the one that was 70 seconds. What was that?

[madscientist]

"Have you tried this? It warms your ass!" Excellent.

Muscle relaxants keeping electrical signals around? Pathetic. I'm happy to let all kinds of pseudo-science go by without comment in the name of entertainment but really, that's just so lame it can't be ignored.

[danplaysbass]

Ok. Lets get this straight. This show is about FRINGE SCIENCE. You cannot go into it thinking it will be based on real science. Approach it with the attitude "Wouldn't it be cool if that were really true?" Imagine the crime solving capabilities if you could see the last thing a murder victim saw. Is this any less believable than Pushing Daisies or Minority Report?

I will say the rapid aging reminded me of a commercial. I think it was for Mountain Dew. It starts with the baby being launched out of the mothers womb and flying through the air at rapid speed all while aging and ends with an old man crashing into a casket. Anybody else remember that?

[dswallow]

Ok. Lets get this straight. This show is about FRINGE SCIENCE. You cannot go into it thinking it will be based on real science. Approach it with the attitude "Wouldn't it be cool if that were really true?" Imagine the crime solving capabilities if you could see the last thing a murder victim saw. Is this any less believable than Pushing Daisies or Minority Report?
That's fine, but the universe they've set up didn't have visualizing the last thing someone saw before dying after being shot with muscle relaxers as a scientific or medical concept; it had a crackpot nutcase scientist who'd been locked up for 17 years come up with the possibility on the fly using some made-up camera device "only available from one company/patent holder".

It was contrived; they didn't attempt in any way whatsoever to be consistent within the universe they're developing. It was just a device they made up for some episode storyline they came up with and weren't creative enough to develop a better way to resolve the search for the murderer.

It's not the absurdity of the fringe science compared to what we know as "real science" it's that they've done nothing to develop that fringe science as anything but a convenient device for the particular story. And that's not true with other aspects of the show where they apparently did spend some time developing a canon of sorts about the some of the fringe sciences they're dealing with.

As some mentioned there were a lot of holes in the conception-to-death growth of that baby. But at least in the scheme of things the basis of it was work the crackpot had done that was carried forward by a colleague over the years since the crackpot was institutionalized. It, too, was sort stupid and dumb, and ignored conservation of mass and any number of other things, but they went to at least some trouble to develop the universe where that was something that could be done.

[Boot]

What was the significance of the scene at the very end? The one with the three men on hospital beds. Was one of them a character we've seen already? Or was it a flash forward to the next episode?

[cheerdude]

What was the significance of the scene at the very end? The one with the three men on hospital beds. Was one of them a character we've seen already? Or was it a flash forward to the next episode?

One of two things that we thought of...

1) It's a batch of super soldiers that were mentioned before.
2) It's two random guys... and the "dead" cop.

[dswallow]

One of two things that we thought of...

1) It's a batch of super soldiers that were mentioned before.
2) It's two random guys... and the "dead" cop.

I thought it was 3 more of his "sons."

[Magister]

I thought it was 3 more of his "sons."

Agreed, they all looked like the son.

[ScottE22]

I think it's OK. Not the best, not the worst. I get what Doug is saying about the camera suddenly being "invented" the instant it was needed -- that does distract a bit from the show. I'll SP it, though, as long as it keeps being entertaining.

My biggest annoyance, though, is that Pacey seems to bring nothing to the table other than (not funny) snarky comments.

On the plus side, I like Olivia. She's the only character we're really getting any depth with.

[jwjody]

I thought the camera thing could be interesting. Not because of what they did with it though. Walter use to work with the guy that owns Massive Dynamics. Massive Dynamics now owns the patent to the camera that needs to be used. Maybe the camera was theoretical 17 years ago, with the idea of Walter and the other guy, now the other guy has built it.

Maybe it was Walter's idea all along and the guy stole it while Walter was in the asylum?

I think you're going to see more stuff pop up like this where Walter posits something but it's already been made by the company because of the history of Walter and the owner.

J

[cheerdude]

I thought it was 3 more of his "sons."

Agreed, they all looked like the son.

Then that makes more sense with Walters' comment.

[TAsunder]

As some mentioned there were a lot of holes in the conception-to-death growth of that baby. But at least in the scheme of things the basis of it was work the crackpot had done that was carried forward by a colleague over the years since the crackpot was institutionalized. It, too, was sort stupid and dumb, and ignored conservation of mass and any number of other things, but they went to at least some trouble to develop the universe where that was something that could be done.

I'm going to disagree with this analysis. I think the entire character is set up to be a cop out on any plot they ever want. I don't think the camera is any different than the deprivation psyche transfer chamber from last week. I thought it was implied that he had already thought of this in the past when he brought it up, just like in last week's episode.

Therein lies the potential problem with the series as a whole. They can make up some fringe science in an episode whenever they want to solve any problem. In a way, it's worse than CSI. But in a way, better, I guess, since people probably won't think it's real.

If this show is going to steer in the right direction, it needs to start serving advanced notice of all these things. They did with teleportation and a few others.

Why isn't anyone documenting every experiment he did and so forth? The show also strains credibility there. They are concerned about the pattern but no one seems to be pressing the doctor for information.

[Amnesia]

Yep, the whole eye-camera thing was just ridiculous, and the techno-babble they used to try to "hang a lantern on it" just made it worse. So now muscle-relaxers magically freeze neural impulses in the optical pathway? :rolleyes:I don't see why everyone's complaining about the eye-camera thing. Yes, yes, nothing like that exists and the premise (that the last image seen is somehow still on the retina) is ridiculous, but I have no real problem with suspending my disbelief over technology, etc like that...

...what I do have a hard time with---and what no one's seemed to have mentioned---was the whole violation of conservation of mass.

Where did the ex-baby's mass come from? He looked like he weighed more than the mother, who still appears to weigh the same as when the episode started. Mass has to come from somewhere. There wasn't even any attempt at explaining that and no one even questioned it. Ignoring blatant violations of the laws of physics really takes me out of the show...

[unicorngoddess]

It's something to watch...I'm enjoying it. Keeping SP.

I try not to think TOO much when I watch TV. I'm enjoying the characters and the ongoing storyline I guess. Now I want to know what's up with Peter...I want to know what Walter was up to before he was put in an institution.

I don't care about the [un]scientific explainations for things. If they say that's how it works, that's how it works. It's just a tv show. I'm paying attention to the overall storyline, and so far I like it.

And I didn't predict a rapid growing baby at all. I was sure she was going to give birth to some kind of weird freakish monster.


ETA: And the eye camera thing...reminded me of Will Smith's Wild Wild West. So I DID kind of chuckle at that.

[TAsunder]

Where did the ex-baby's mass come from? He looked like he weighed more than the mother, who still appears to weigh the same as when the episode started. Mass has to come from somewhere. There wasn't even any attempt at explaining that and no one even questioned it. Ignoring blatant violations of the laws of physics really takes me out of the show...

Maybe the mother ate 45,982,092 jelly donuts that day.

[Sadara]

I'm either not smart or I'm simple minded, I don't know which really..... after reading this through I am wondering if I'm either. I really liked this show. I'm enjoying the characters. The old scientist guy cracks me up, the things he says out of the blue are awesome! I'm not thinking too much in to the science at all, it's a sci-fi type show in my opinion. I never go at them with the idea of what's suppose to be plausible or real.

Like, unicorngoddess, I assumed the woman was giving birth to some kind of weird freakish monster baby.

[DevdogAZ]

Count me as one of those that doesn't care that the science isn't based in reality. It's not supposed to be. If I wanted that, I'd watch Discovery Channel or something. This is supposed to be entertaining, and if you can't turn off your skeptical side for 42 minutes and just be entertained, you've got no business watching.

I'm not saying it's a great show yet. It's clearly got flaws and will take some work to make it more compelling, but at least it's entertaining so far.

[Church AV Guy]

...what I do have a hard time with---and what no one's seemed to have mentioned---was the whole violation of conservation of mass.
It was commented on at least twice before you brought it up.

What I want to know is, why they had to extract the eyeball from the socket for the camera to work. My wife thought it was unnecessarily gory, and served no other purpose. I had to agree. It was also unnecessary for the women to be awake while their brain was being operated on. Unless they actually explain why this was essential for the extraction to work, there is fundamentally no difference between a pituitary from an awake person, and one who is asleep. The only purpose this served was to make the bad guys more revolting. Yeah, ther were tears streaming out of their victims while the "surgery" was going on, they are REALLY bad! We get it.

[MickeS]

It was commented on at least twice before you brought it up.

What I want to know is, why they had to extract the eyeball from the socket for the camera to work. My wife thought it was unnecessarily gory, and served no other purpose. I had to agree. It was also unnecessary for the women to be awake while their brain was being operated on. Unless they actually explain why this was essential for the extraction to work, there is fundamentally no difference between a pituitary from an awake person, and one who is asleep. The only purpose this served was to make the bad guys more revolting. Yeah, ther were tears streaming out of their victims while the "surgery" was going on, they are REALLY bad! We get it.
Yeah they really seemed to do the gore for the gore's sake. I don't mind it, but it's on at 8 PM here and I don't think it's appropriate for that time slot.

[TAsunder]

Count me as one of those that doesn't care that the science isn't based in reality. It's not supposed to be. If I wanted that, I'd watch Discovery Channel or something. This is supposed to be entertaining, and if you can't turn off your skeptical side for 42 minutes and just be entertained, you've got no business watching.

I don't think the problem is that the science is inaccurate. The problem for me is that they seem to have set up the show to involve a very cheap and dishonest formula. Every episode they can present a problem and then solve it through some completely made-up science that was never before mentioned. It's like some of the worst episodes of various Star Trek incarnations where they just invent some technobabble to solve a problem.

[danterner]

I don't think the problem is that the science is inaccurate. The problem for me is that they seem to have set up the show to involve a very cheap and dishonest formula. Every episode they can present a problem and then solve it through some completely made-up science that was never before mentioned. It's like some of the worst episodes of various Star Trek incarnations where they just invent some technobabble to solve a problem.

Wasn't this something that plagued Buffy, too? It seems like on that show (which was nevertheless very enjoyable and watchable) they were always finding the Ancient Dagger of Smiting right when the Ancient Evil Guy in Need of Smiting arrived in Sunnydale.

[MickeS]

Stargate Atlantis too - the problem seems unsolvable, until either a) the Daedalus showed up or b) Rodney all of a sudden had an epiphany.

I guess it goes with the territory. :)

[unicorngoddess]

This is supposed to be entertaining, and if you can't turn off your skeptical side for 42 minutes and just be entertained, you've got no business watching.

LOL. You said 42 :p

[TAsunder]

Wasn't this something that plagued Buffy, too? It seems like on that show (which was nevertheless very enjoyable and watchable) they were always finding the Ancient Dagger of Smiting right when the Ancient Evil Guy in Need of Smiting arrived in Sunnydale.

Yeah but that was usually only an episode or two, not EVERY episode (as seems to be the case with Fringe thus far). Also it wasn't structured similar to a mystery as Fringe is.

[LoadStar]

Wasn't this something that plagued Buffy, too? It seems like on that show (which was nevertheless very enjoyable and watchable) they were always finding the Ancient Dagger of Smiting right when the Ancient Evil Guy in Need of Smiting arrived in Sunnydale.

I think the difference is how "realistic" a show's style is. Fringe is styled as a realistic drama, given that they are using realistic groups of people like DHS and FBI, having it set at a realistic place like Harvard University, and that sort of thing. So when you have very fantastical elements like the camera featured in this episode, the difference is very glaring.

On the other hand, a show like Buffy is very fantasy based - I mean, the series is all about a super-powered teen heroine fighting vampires. When they go and pull out a magical scythe to save the day, it fits in with the show's style.

On a show like Fringe, to make the fantastical technology seem a little less glaring, they should be inserting some slightly more accessible, yet still unrealistic, technology throughout. For instance, have a character state that they have a bionic eye thanks to Massive Dynamic, for example... or the cop cars are all electric thanks to a breakthrough electric engine from Massive Dynamic. Something like that. As a result, when the company breaks out this camera, you can go "oh, ok, well, this company is making all this other high-tech stuff, why not a camera that can take photographs of an electrical impulse?"

[Rob Helmerichs]

For me, the problem isn't making up science. That I can live with. The problem is when they use real, current science--and totally botch it. If you're going to fake it, fake it all the way.

[dcheesi]

For me, the problem isn't making up science. That I can live with. The problem is when they use real, current science--and totally botch it. If you're going to fake it, fake it all the way.+1

[tewcewl]

It was also unnecessary for the women to be awake while their brain was being operated on. Unless they actually explain why this was essential for the extraction to work, there is fundamentally no difference between a pituitary from an awake person, and one who is asleep. The only purpose this served was to make the bad guys more revolting. Yeah, ther were tears streaming out of their victims while the "surgery" was going on, they are REALLY bad! We get it.
I had surmised it was because they needed the pituitary gland as fresh as possible, so they waited until the last possible moment for extraction.

I don't get all the Anna Torv haters out there. I think she looks very attractive and not odd looking at all.

[dswallow]

What I want to know is, why they had to extract the eyeball from the socket for the camera to work. My wife thought it was unnecessarily gory, and served no other purpose. I had to agree. It was also unnecessary for the women to be awake while their brain was being operated on. Unless they actually explain why this was essential for the extraction to work, there is fundamentally no difference between a pituitary from an awake person, and one who is asleep. The only purpose this served was to make the bad guys more revolting. Yeah, ther were tears streaming out of their victims while the "surgery" was going on, they are REALLY bad! We get it.

Well, if the images were "frozen" in the optic nerve, one probably needs to take a picture of the optic nerve to retrieve them.

[MickeS]

To me, it was also overkill. The episode already had the mystery with the rapid aging, and the "fringe science" involved with that. There was absolutely NO need storywise to go beyond regular detective work to find the killer to introduce this fantastic camera. It just pushed the episode from "not believable but enjoyable" to "not believable and frankly ridiculous".

[danterner]

I think the difference is how "realistic" a show's style is. Fringe is styled as a realistic drama, given that they are using realistic groups of people like DHS and FBI, having it set at a realistic place like Harvard University, and that sort of thing. So when you have very fantastical elements like the camera featured in this episode, the difference is very glaring.

On the other hand, a show like Buffy is very fantasy based - I mean, the series is all about a super-powered teen heroine fighting vampires. When they go and pull out a magical scythe to save the day, it fits in with the show's style.

Maybe Buffy wasn't the best example. I have no problem with a character pulling out a magical scythe to save the day, provided the existence of the scythe (or, at least, clues suggesting that something like it might exist) was established earlier. Whether a show is pure fantasy or straight procedural, a good storyteller will lay the foundation to support the twists and turns of the plot. Want to create a world where there exist cameras the can photograph electrical impulses? I have no problem with that. Whip out the camera/scythe as the solution to a problem manufactured in that same episode? That gives me more pause, because it is weaker storytelling.

[aintnosin]

To me, it was also overkill. The episode already had the mystery with the rapid aging, and the "fringe science" involved with that. There was absolutely NO need storywise to go beyond regular detective work to find the killer to introduce this fantastic camera. It just pushed the episode from "not believable but enjoyable" to "not believable and frankly ridiculous".
My problem was that Massive Dynamic just happened to have the camera handy. Is MD going to be the magic hat from which this series pulls all of its rabbits?

[Church AV Guy]

Well, if the images were "frozen" in the optic nerve, one probably needs to take a picture of the optic nerve to retrieve them.
That I could have accepted, but the camera was very clearly taking pictures of the retina of the eyeball by strobing light into the eyel and seeing what was reflected. Remember the "doctor" said the retina retained the last images seen. They did not need to remove the eyeball from the socket just to get a good reflection of the retina. I don't recall them having any electrical probe into the optic nerve, just a little eyeball stand.

[madscientist]

I can usually live with things just fine: I have no problem with almost anything that happened because (and here I agree with Rob) I can suspend disbelief enough to allow for inventions that defy scientific fact as we know it today. As the old saying goes, any sufficiently advanced technology etc. etc. So, the super-fancy camera: OK. The need to extract the eyeball: OK (hey, we don't know how the super-fancy camera works; why not?). The massive increase in mass: OK (once you posit super-rapid aging then who knows?)

I still say, though, that muscle relaxants that preserve electrical current is total BS! I mean, there's nothing new or "super-science" about muscle relaxants: we know what they are and how they work. Ditto for the way the optic nerve works. That is simple, unadulterated crap. Now, if they'd left that out and just said "oooh, special techno-camera that takes pictures of the last thing seen by the eye" I'd have said fine. If they'd said "oooh, here's a super-secret formula I was working on 20 years ago that can allow a special techno-camera to take pictures of the last thing seen by the eye", I'd have said great, bring it on!

But, muscle relaxants that preserve electricity in the optic nerve? Nuh-uh. Not. Sorry.

That is not pseudo-science. That's just lame, and it's too much to ask (of me :)).

[aus1ander]

I'm a doctor and I (surprisingly) find this show entertaining. I was less annoyed with the retinal camera than I was watching them shock the girl in asystole (for those of you non-medical people, that never works and is not in the protocol we follow in resuscitation for that reason). If you're going to have a pseudo-science/medical show, at least get the basic facts right.

With that said, I still think Fringe has a lot of potential... it has that "Lost" feel to it. I think if they are able to develop the story over the next couple of episodes and are able to connect the episodes together (instead of just presenting a new "puzzle" each week), this could be another huge success like Lost.

[balboa dave]

I had a completely different take on the eyeball image camera scene. I saw it as being directly inspired by a Philip K. Dick short story I read as a kid, and that made me very happy. Sadly, I have long since forgot the title.

[LlamaLarry]

What were the words on the One Way sign, at the return from commercial break when the lead went to Massive Dynamic? Wasn't "One Way". Something "Videos"?

[Bierboy]

Why was that impressive? I could tell that was going to happen from the pilot. They were clearly setting up a pseudo-science formulaic freak of the week series with the way the pilot ended.

Agreed -- I was meh for the first ep and this one just continued. The FOTW formula wears thin, and when it wears thin after two eps that's a bad sign. The SP remains, but it's falling in my viewing priorities (which means it may be weeks before I watch a recorded ep).

...But I will say one thing: the "Fringe will return in N seconds" at the start of every commercial break sure makes it easy to 30 second skip past them...

I may keep my SP for just that reason!

Except for the one that was 70 seconds. What was that?

Insert local 10-second whatever....that's what happened here.

[Bierboy]

....I still think Fringe has a lot of potential... it has that "Lost" feel to it. I think if they are able to develop the story over the next couple of episodes and are able to connect the episodes together (instead of just presenting a new "puzzle" each week), this could be another huge success like Lost.

Wow....I really have to strongly disagree here. The first two eps of Fringe don't come close to touching the first two eps of Lost.

[WO312]

(snip)...what I do have a hard time with---and what no one's seemed to have mentioned---was the whole violation of conservation of mass.

Where did the ex-baby's mass come from? He looked like he weighed more than the mother, who still appears to weigh the same as when the episode started. Mass has to come from somewhere. There wasn't even any attempt at explaining that and no one even questioned it. Ignoring blatant violations of the laws of physics really takes me out of the show...
Well, as long as we're talking about FRINGE science, there IS an explanation. Einstein proved back in 1905 that energy can be converted into mass, and mass into energy. So, somehow, there was an energy source that provided the mass of the baby turning onto a man. :)

The entire mass of the universe we see today was nothing but energy at the instant of the big bang.

Conservation of mass only applies to the everyday world that we experience. It applies to a closed system. So obviously Fringe is operating in an open system. And not in the everyday world that we experience. :)

P.S. The only reason I know this is I just watched a fantastic Nova show on Einstein, airing this week, and read some of the material at the PBS website. A 2 hour dramatization of the lead-up to and results of Einstein's famous equation. Worth watching.

[LlamaLarry]

What were the words on the One Way sign, at the return from commercial break when the lead went to Massive Dynamic? Wasn't "One Way". Something "Videos"?A nice screen cap here:
http://fringe-forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2160&postcount=3

There may be spoilers in that thread, and on that site, so be careful. The link is to the specific post with the cap.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Well, as long as we're talking about FRINGE science, there IS an explanation. Einstein proved back in 1905 that energy can be converted into mass, and mass into energy. So, somehow, there was an energy source that provided the mass of the baby turning onto a man. :)
But do you have any idea how much energy it would take to make that much mass?

(Hint: A nuclear bomb is a very inefficient way of transforming mass into energy.)

[catcard]

It's something to watch...I'm enjoying it. Keeping SP.

I try not to think TOO much when I watch TV. I'm enjoying the characters and the ongoing storyline I guess. Now I want to know what's up with Peter...I want to know what Walter was up to before he was put in an institution.

I don't care about the [un]scientific explainations for things. If they say that's how it works, that's how it works. It's just a tv show. I'm paying attention to the overall storyline, and so far I like it.



Exactly! I have not seen anywhere that this show is trying to be any type of documentary program - this is purely fictional and should be viewed as such. Some of you guys think waaaay too much! Relax and enjoy!

[JakeyB]

So I was watching an episode of Homicide: Life on the Street season 6. Bayless (I think), told a suspect that they had a way of viewing the last thing a person saw before dying. I found it amusing that I happened to see both in the same week :)

[DevdogAZ]

On a show like Fringe, to make the fantastical technology seem a little less glaring, they should be inserting some slightly more accessible, yet still unrealistic, technology throughout. For instance, have a character state that they have a bionic eye thanks to Massive Dynamic, for example... or the cop cars are all electric thanks to a breakthrough electric engine from Massive Dynamic. Something like that. As a result, when the company breaks out this camera, you can go "oh, ok, well, this company is making all this other high-tech stuff, why not a camera that can take photographs of an electrical impulse?"
You mean kind of like the totally advance bionic arm they showed in the pilot that is worn by the woman who runs Massive Dynamic? Seems they did exactly what you wanted them to, and you're completely overlooking it.

[WO312]

But do you have any idea how much energy it would take to make that much mass?

(Hint: A nuclear bomb is a very inefficient way of transforming mass into energy.)
Yep, hence the smiley.

One of the factoids on the PBS website said that a small paper clip has the equivalent energy of a small atomic bomb (18 kilotons). And that a small house probably has enough potential energy to split the earth in half. As I said, this is FRINGE science. :):)

[Hunter Green]

I had a completely different take on the eyeball image camera scene. I saw it as being directly inspired by a Philip K. Dick short story I read as a kid, and that made me very happy. Sadly, I have long since forgot the title.
I've seen this idea in a lot of stories -- the show even mentioned Jules Verne's version which might be the first. But in some genres, I can really embrace the wholly unrealistic science. I love Eureka, for one thing, and the scientific groaners in that are awful. And I love me some Victorian-era romantic fantasy with airships flying to Mars. But somehow, in Fringe it bugs me. Maybe it's that they want to have their cake and eat it too -- take ideas so ridiculous they only suit parodying science, and still call it fringe "real" science. Maybe it's because they have set themselves up so the storyline is just create problem, invent ridiculous faux-science solution, rinse and repeat. I'm not sure really. But I'm clearly not the only one.

[tewcewl]

I do agree with those of you who are saying that having Massive Dynamic be a repository of easy technology in order to solve a problem in a specific episode is too easy.

But, I don't know if that's really what they're gonna be doing week in and out. Something tells me that they're building up to a larger plot. I'd like to see if they do an episode without Massive Dynamic's involvement so we get a better idea of what a true stand alone episode is like.

[Magister]

Deus ex corporation?

[TAsunder]

But do you have any idea how much energy it would take to make that much mass?

(Hint: A nuclear bomb is a very inefficient way of transforming mass into energy.)

I already addressed this. She ate a crazy amount of jelly donuts. Pay attention, will ya? :cool:

[johnperkins21]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but the most unbelievable portion of the whole episode for me was that the dude was able to get multiple hot chicks to follow him to his hotel or whatever. No flipping way that happens. I understand they were insinuating that he was paying them, but prostitution from a strip club is strictly prohibited and incredibly rare.

Sure the science is horrible, but the social aspects of it were bad as well. And what's up with the old dude going crazy "can't you see I'm working here?" It didn't fit at all, and was clearly just a bad set up to get Pacey to say "well, I can go since I learned a couple things at school." Totally weak.

I had high expectations for this show, and it's turned out to be dreadful. I'm so incredibly disappointed.

[jimborst]

but prostitution from a strip club is strictly prohibited and incredibly rare.

I don't know how to reply to this, but I have been to places where not only does it happen but it happens regularly. However I will deny any knowledge of these happenings*.

*I have not partaken in the activities but know people who have.

[jlb]

And when the Dad started recited numbers, I was wondering if he would start saying 4 8 15 16 23 42.

I like it.

[Magister]

I understand they were insinuating that he was paying them, but prostitution from a strip club is strictly prohibited and incredibly rare.


Change that to extremely common Bo. Prostitution is part of the dancing game to these girls. 1$ in her g-string to dance in your direction. $10 for a simple lap dance, $20 for a little contact. $100 to start in the champagne room. Just goes up from there. They are whores, just gotta find the price point for the product they are offering.

[johnperkins21]

Change that to extremely common Bo. Prostitution is part of the dancing game to these girls. 1$ in her g-string to dance in your direction. $10 for a simple lap dance, $20 for a little contact. $100 to start in the champagne room. Just goes up from there. They are whores, just gotta find the price point for the product they are offering.

This has definitely not been my experience. I've known multiple dancers and none of them "worked" on the side. It is deeply frowned upon, and generally management will not allow the girls to leave with a guest. The few places I've known that actually did deal in this sort of thing, the girls would often have an escort, especially if they're leaving with just some random dude that strolled in that day.

[BitbyBlit]

One of the factoids on the PBS website said that a small paper clip has the equivalent energy of a small atomic bomb (18 kilotons). And that a small house probably has enough potential energy to split the earth in half. As I said, this is FRINGE science. :):)

Were you trying to set someone up to make a joke about the Big Bang? :D

[unicorngoddess]

Maybe it depends on what area you're from...I don't know. I know/have known lots of dancers. And, yes, it is illegal for them to solicite any sexual acts. But that doesn't mean it's not done. You'll have the girls that have standards and the girls that'll do anything for money.

And even though it's frowned upon for girls to date the customers, that's not to say it doesn't happen. Guys have been known to leave strip clubs with one of the girls without paying.

[dianebrat]

And even though it's frowned upon for girls to date the customers, that's not to say it doesn't happen. Guys have been known to leave strip clubs with one of the girls without paying.

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

[johnperkins21]

Maybe it depends on what area you're from...I don't know. I know/have known lots of dancers. And, yes, it is illegal for them to solicite any sexual acts. But that doesn't mean it's not done. You'll have the girls that have standards and the girls that'll do anything for money.

And even though it's frowned upon for girls to date the customers, that's not to say it doesn't happen. Guys have been known to leave strip clubs with one of the girls without paying.

True. But, I simply didn't buy that this guy could have gotten either of those girls alone without paying, which seemed to be the indication from the mannerisms of the first girl. He was simply too creepy. If the insinuation was that he paid for them, he should have picked the second girl up off the street.

[Magister]

True. But, I simply didn't buy that this guy could have gotten either of those girls alone without paying, which seemed to be the indication from the mannerisms of the first girl. He was simply too creepy. If the insinuation was that he paid for them, he should have picked the second girl up off the street.

Just throwing this out there, but you are much more likely to get rolled trying to pick up a ho on the street. You have to deal with a pimp and the cops seeing you roll around. You can lose your car that way. A strip club is a more protective sanctuary for picking up the 'ladies.'

The strip club girls could also be at least a little more attractive on the ho scale. Lowest being assitant crack ho up to expensive in-call girl.

And no, I have never tried, but I watch plenty of Skin-a-max, so I know.... eheh

[BeanMeScot]

I'm sorry, the picture of the retina thing was way over the top. I was kind of with them to that point. That was just ridiculous. Very disappointing with the pilot being so promising. I will try it for a while longer but I wasn't impressed with this one.