web videos and SP

[amoldd]

Hi,
I have noticed on my Series2 that season pass for web videos do not work as expected if the previous episode is not deleted. So if I have a maximum limit of 1 episode of RocketBoom, season pass does not replace existing video with new one like it would for any other cable recording. If I delete it, a newer one will be downloaded by SP.
Is this normal?
Thanks,
Amol

[rainwater]

Yes, it is the intended behavior. It is ridiculous, but TiVo designed the system this way. They basically caved to the publishers and could care less what is good for the users in this case.

[amoldd]

Ok, good to know.
I agree its very annoying to delete every episode before we get the new one. Its against the very definition of 'season pass'. But with all the goodness it has to offer, guess I can live with it.

[TiVoStephen]

Yes, it is the intended behavior. It is ridiculous, but TiVo designed the system this way. They basically caved to the publishers and could care less what is good for the users in this case.Sorry rainwater, but I disagree vehemently with that characterization. What good is it for the user to be downloading episode after episode if it's not being watched? It's tying up your broadband bandwidth for no benefit at all. You can always pick up the back issues you missed. Especially with caps coming, the current system works for users, publishers, and TiVo.

Broadcast bandwidth doesn't cost the user anything. So the old Season Pass model works fine for broadcast. But bits going down ethernet are not free, and so the old Season Pass model does not work fine for downloads.

If publishers had to pay for episodes that were downloaded and not watched week after week, no publisher would participate, or we'd have to charge users money per download. I don't think that's what our customers want.

Best,
Stephen

[rainwater]

Sorry rainwater, but I disagree vehemently with that characterization. What good is it for the user to be downloading episode after episode if it's not being watched? It's tying up your broadband bandwidth for no benefit at all. You can always pick up the back issues you missed. Especially with caps coming, the current system works for users, publishers, and TiVo.


So why not do what other systems do? Disable downloading the TiVoCasts if the user doesn't watch the last x episodes. The current system works against the very Season Pass system that TiVo has used to revolutionize dvrs. Now you are asking users to do something they do not realize they need to do. That is they have to manage their season passes by deleting each episode they watch. Of course, the current system assumes each TiVoCast is only watched by ONE person (assuming multiple users means you can't delete the episodes after watching them). This practice does not make any sense. It shouldn't be hassling the users because TiVo can't handle the network traffic. Fix the system so it works as users expect it to work. I have no problem if you want to not waste resources but the current system only encourages users not to use TiVoCasts.

[scandia101]

Sorry rainwater, but I disagree vehemently with that characterization. What good is it for the user to be downloading episode after episode if it's not being watched? It's tying up your broadband bandwidth for no benefit at all.

One could also say:
What good is it for the user to be recording episode after episode if it's not being watched? It's tying up your tuner(s) for no benefit at all.

Plain and simple, It's our bandwidth to use as we see fit. No need for TiVo to be Big Brother.

[TiVoStephen]

The publisher pays for that bandwidth, though.

Here's your choice:
* The broadcast Season Pass model, and pay per download (instead of getting them free)
* The TiVoCast Season Pass model, and no extra charge

What you want isn't viable, sorry.

[wmcbrine]

So why not do what other systems do? Disable downloading the TiVoCasts if the user doesn't watch the last x episodes.That's basically what it is doing. It's just that x = the "keep at most" number. People setting that to one = bad idea for TiVoCasts. Set it to five (ISTR it won't go higher on TiVoCasts).

[rainwater]

That's basically what it is doing. It's just that x = the "keep at most" number. People setting that to one = bad idea for TiVoCasts. Set it to five (ISTR it won't go higher on TiVoCasts).

No it isn't doing that. When iTunes wants a new podcast, it deletes the old podcast. However, if I don't listen to a podcast for a while it will disable it. If iTunes would require users to delete each podcast they listen to, people would think Apple was crazy. That is not how you manage such a feature.

[rainwater]

The publisher pays for that bandwidth, though.


Yes, this is pretty much the point of my first post.

Unless TiVo plans to come up with a real way to manage season passes for TivoCasts, I will never use them. I am not going to spend my time managing episodes of season passes. The TiVo should be deleting them to make room just like it has been for years. It shouldn't be the users problem if TiVo or the publishers can't come up with a better system.

[dylanemcgregor]

I don't get the problem here. I set the KAM on TiVoCasts to 5 (which is the default I believe). When I watch one I either delete it or change the keep until setting to be keep until I delete. Either way it is no longer considered part of the KAM # and it will download the next episode. Works for me since TiVoCasts are not really must watch TV and I only get to them every few weeks, but then will watch a few at at time. Since they are not time sensitive* I'd prefer to watch the old ones first and then work my way up to the current ones.

And I haven't used iTunes for podcasts for a year or two, but I never had iTunes delete a podcast (and would have been PO'd if it had). Instead it would download and save all podcasts. If I went awhile without listening to any (maybe a month?) it stopped downloading any until I listened to some of the backlog and/or confirmed that I wanted it to keep downloading. Seems to be exactly what TiVoCasts does, but iTunes bases on time and TiVocast bases on number?

*Obviously the Weather Channel is different, and it would be better to have the current podcast at all times and discard the rest...but since I'm only likely to look at it a couple of times a year I just make do with the Yahoo Weather app instead.

[scandia101]

The publisher pays for that bandwidth, though.

Here's your choice:
* The broadcast Season Pass model, and pay per download (instead of getting them free)
* The TiVoCast Season Pass model, and no extra charge

What you want isn't viable, sorry.

I pay for my bandwidth and they have sponsors to cover their costs.
The point is still that TiVo doesn't need to be an Orwellian Big Brother.

[rainwater]

And I haven't used iTunes for podcasts for a year or two, but I never had iTunes delete a podcast (and would have been PO'd if it had).

By default it only saves x number of episodes of a podcast (I forget which is the default value). So it deletes the old episode when a new one is downloaded if it already is at the limit. But it does disable podcasts that aren't listened to after a certain time period. TiVo could do this, but I guess the deals they struck with the publishers forces them to do it the current method which makes no sense.

[skywise]

Probably a simple thing for the TiVo to do is just mention what it's doing to the user...
I didn't realize it was doing that until just now reading this thread.
I just thought it odd that another episode would pop in just after I'd finished with the last one.

If the TiVo would pop up a message mentioning that the season pass for cranky geeks is full and no more will be DLed until some are deleted, that'd be fine. Or even an unusual mark in the playing now that someone could clue into and figure out why there's a red X in that grouping... (like the yellow ! for the recordings it's about to delete)

I can understand not DLing unlimited episodes of some show, wasting both the user's and publisher's bandwidth, as long as we know it's doing that.

Sky

[dylanemcgregor]

I believe they did this at least at first when setting up a new SP for a TiVoCast. I remember there being some semi-prominent note about what happens when the KAM limit is reached. I haven't set up a new TiVoCast SP for a long time, so I'm kind of fuzzy on the details.

I agree that some visual indicator in the NP list would be nice to have, but not a real big deal to me personally.

[TiVoStephen]

I like the visual indicator idea, but that would be a difficult change to implement.

As dylanemcgregor says, we're very up front about this when you create a Season Pass.

Some of the partners do have sponsorship (although most don't), but that covers production costs, not bandwidth charges.

If a partner uses, for example, Amazon S3 for hosting (http://www.amazon.com/s3) they pay $0.15 per gigabyte transferred to you. That adds up quickly.

[scandia101]

Some of the partners do have sponsorship (although most don't), but that covers production costs, not bandwidth charges.

If a partner uses, for example, Amazon S3 for hosting ******************** they pay $0.15 per gigabyte transferred to you. That adds up quickly.

:rolleyes:
Again, not something for TiVo inc. to be protecting.

And that $0.15/GB is for storage. Rates for transfers vary depending on volume.

[TiVoStephen]

:rolleyes:
Again, not something for TiVo inc. to be protecting.Of course it is. We want to offer you the feature. If we don't offer it with the current functionality, our partners would not participate and there would be nothing under the free Video Downloads.

And that $0.15/GB is for storage. Rates for transfers vary depending on volume.True, the actual rate varies between $0.17 (which will be the cost for most transfers, and is more than what I quoted) and $0.10 for very high volume partners -- but the point stands. Even if YOU have unlimited bandwidth, it still costs the provider money to send it to you. (Both sides have to pay.)

[LostCluster]

Some online shows have sponsors willing to pay for bandwidth... but those sponsors want to be able to assume that downloads = views. Therefore, they're not going to co-operate with a system that downloads and automatically deletes unviewed episodes.

[rainwater]

Some online shows have sponsors willing to pay for bandwidth... but those sponsors want to be able to assume that downloads = views. Therefore, they're not going to co-operate with a system that downloads and automatically deletes unviewed episodes.

Yes. Thus why I said TiVo caved to the publishers.

Many of the same publishers provide the same content through iTunes or any other aggregator that can properly handle this situation without user interaction.

[magnus]

I like it the way it is. However, I only watch a couple of programs via TivoCast. Just Cranky Geeks and RocketBoom.


The publisher pays for that bandwidth, though.

Here's your choice:
* The broadcast Season Pass model, and pay per download (instead of getting them free)
* The TiVoCast Season Pass model, and no extra charge

What you want isn't viable, sorry.