Here is the official end dates of MPEG-2

[incog-neato]

Check the screen crawls .... 3 channels going soon, the rest, who knows?

[stevel]

So now we know... Thanks.

[shibby191]

Pretty much what I had thought, most by year's end and NY locals later on because they need more time to get MDU's upgraded. Thanks for the info.

[newsposter]

my 119 is very sporadic since the neighbors tree grew and even 110 has issue so i'm really glad i have my hr20 and the new channels.

now can they make the 70s channels mpeg4 remaps too :)

[incog-neato]

There's going to be a LOT of unhappy mdu's come January. Pretty much what I had thought, most by year's end and NY locals later on because they need more time to get MDU's upgraded. Thanks for the info.

[TyroneShoes]

While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

[incog-neato]

Obviously I meant HD MPEG2! :rolleyes: While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

[TonyD79]

my 119 is very sporadic since the neighbors tree grew and even 110 has issue so i'm really glad i have my hr20 and the new channels.

now can they make the 70s channels mpeg4 remaps too :)


I doubt the 70s channels will still exist. They will probably go the way of the 80s west coast HD networks...gone, baby, gone.

[Cartrivision]

While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

The TV stations compression method has nothing to do with whether DirecTV uses MPEG2 or MPEG4. That decision will be based solely on when DirecTV is willing to obsolete the MPEG2 only receivers that most of their customers use for the purpose of viewing the various MPEG2 DirecTV channels. DirecTV's transition to MPEG4 can happen even if the program originators continue encoding in MPEG2.

[TyroneShoes]

The TV stations compression method has nothing to do with whether DirecTV uses MPEG2 or MPEG4. That decision will be based solely on when DirecTV is willing to obsolete the MPEG2 only receivers that most of their customers use for the purpose of viewing the various MPEG2 DirecTV channels. DirecTV's transition to MPEG4 can happen even if the program originators continue encoding in MPEG2.Ya think? Thanks for the corrective update, Captain Obvious, just where did I ever imply anything different?

[Mike Lang]

FYI, I have it on good authority that while these dates have been released, they are estimates and not by any means set in stone.

[incog-neato]

Of course NOTHING in the world is "set in stone" but it's accurate as of this moment and other info I have provided has been spot on. Everything is "subject to change" when it comes to changes like this as there are MANY variables which can have an affect on exact dates. This information has been highly discussed for months if not years but this is the first "official" information that is not based on pure speculation.

Guess you've been talking to DB eh? ;) I thank you for not deleting it as he did.

FYI, I have it on good authority that while these dates have been released, they are estimates and not by any means set in stone.

[catfish john]

While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?

[incog-neato]

It is not based on a "show." Currently if it is an HD channel (except for the channels listed in the original post) it is MPEG4. All the new HD channels are transmitted in MPEG4 and the "original" MPEG2 HD channels listed in the OP will be changing to MPEG4 as noted.

While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?

[incog-neato]

Just to clarify what I assumed to be obvious ..... the title of this thread should be:

Here is the official end dates of HD MPEG-2

It only applies to DirecTV channels: 72,73,75,76,79 for everyone, 70 & 74 for those also subscribed to SHO or HBO and 74 & 78 for those receiving the HD-Extra pack.

Basically legacy (MPEG2 only) HD receivers including the HR10-250, the H10 and any older HD receivers like Samsung & Sony will no longer receive any HD programming. All "standard" programming will continue to work as will OTA channels if you are geting your locals OTA.

[Todd]

Well, that's not too bad. I don't have to worry about it until January and then for only a few months until the new HDTiVos come out...

[Castaa]

Thanks for posting this. This helped me decide to upgrade instead of fix my HR10-250.

[Cudahy]

I wonder if the new Directv-Tivo agreement will make them continue to allow the 10-250 to get those remaining HD channels until next September when the new DirecTivo HD comes out? It would make sense.

[stevel]

No, it doesn't make sense, and they need to get rid of those MPEG2 HD channels to make room for the added HD channels they have promised. As for "September", who said that?

[Cudahy]

The release said between July and December of next year.

[BOBCAT]

Hey Directv, If you are coming out with your new TiVo powered HD box next summer, why not just leave the HD channels on MPEG 2 until then? Don't see why you can't leave them there for another 7 months. Pulling them off at the same time you release the new box will be a great way of influencing the die hard HR10-250 owners to make the jump to the new box! Would make a great marketing ploy!

Can just see the crawler on Directv:

"Order your new TiVo powered MPEG4 DVR today as your HR10-250's will lose your HD channels when the new MPEG4 TiVo is released"

------------------->>>>>>>Think about it Directv<<<<<<----------------

[SleepyBob]

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

What's your reasoning on this? I would have thought that moving to a new compression algorithm and having to spend more money on hardware would be the last thing a lot of TV stations would want. And it's not like viewers will stop watching their local NBC because it's being broadcast OTA in an MPEG-2 format.

[cdharris]

A CSR from DirecTV called me a couple of weeks ago to try to get me to do the equipment swap. I asked her when my HR10-250 would no longer be able to receive HD from DirecTV and she said September 6. I didn't think she knew what she was talking about and now am even more certain of that. I declined their offer of a swap and am going to take my time in purchasing and installing new equipment. I hope to be able to hold out until the new Tivo comes out.

[shibby191]

Sorry guys, they need to take the MPEG2 HD down to get the bandwidth. They have to get the locals off 72.5 and onto 110 and 119 and guess where that bandwidth comes from? Where the MPEG2 HD is. Among other things they need to do with the bandwidth.

Besides, saving 9 or so HD channels when you have over 100 just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for less then 50K users.

[Cudahy]

They've already got over a 100 HD channels in mpeg4. Keeping the 7 mpeg2 channels an extra 9 months to help the transition to the new HDtivo is no big problem.

[AbMagFab]

While that's useful in predicting the end of SOME MPEG-2 on DTV and, I guess, ALL HD MPEG-2 on DTV, speaking as a broadcaster I wish someone would sunset ALL MPEG-2, period, as the thread title alludes, even though that would be the actual date when the HR10 finally becomes obsolete (and not before).

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

Why would television stations possibly care about compression algorithms? And even moreso, why would they want something that would require a massive investment?

I understand why cable/satellite operators want to convert, since it effectively gives them more bandwidth to play with. But TV stations shouldn't care at all about bandwidth. So what else about changing compression algorithms helps them in any way (other than costing them money)?

[TyroneShoes]

Why would television stations possibly care about compression algorithms? And even moreso, why would they want something that would require a massive investment?

I understand why cable/satellite operators want to convert, since it effectively gives them more bandwidth to play with. But TV stations shouldn't care at all about bandwidth. So what else about changing compression algorithms helps them in any way (other than costing them money)?I think you may be missing two key points:

1) TV stations couldn't give a rat's hat about compression algorithms per se, but they do care about how much money they can make. That is fundamentally linked to how many commercials they can sell, how much product placement they can muster, and how successful they are to herding folks to their internet presence. And that is limited by how much programming they can offer and how much quality they can provide in that programming.

TV stations would be interested in better compression algorithms for the very same exact reason that DBS and cable are. When bandwidth is limited, better compression = more programming at better quality = more commercials and more people viewing them. It's really just that simple. Right now TV stations are limited to 1 HD signal + 2 SD signals, or possibly 4 SD signals. If they could up those numbers (because they sure aren't about to be licensed for any extended bandwidth), they could better compete with all the other media out there, media that CAN extend bandwidth or buy more bandwidth or gain bandwidth due to technological improvements.

TV stations care more about bandwidth than anyone. And that is probably because they have no option to get more and are stuck with 6 Mhz while competing media can acquire as much as they want, up to a point. Cable has up to 1.5 G of bandwidth, and they have clever ways of reusing it such as switched delivery. Your Slimline is capable of pulling in 5 sats, each with 500 MHz of bandwidth. The world is moving to VOD, which at some point will make local broadcasters a dim memory. Any option to conserve or use their tiny amount of bandwidth in ways that can increase the bottom line is like gold to TV broadcasters. It's their holy grail.

2) The cost for a TV station to change compression to something newer could be as little as 50K, which is about what they might spend on a new HD character generator. A single new camera or production switcher costs many more times that, and they make those sorts of investments regularly. It probably cost each station on average about 10 million to upgrade to the free HD you watch every day, so 50K is like beer money to them.

And that's just to TRANSMIT it. It costs a couple mill to convert to HD news, and another half a mil to convert to HD syndication and commercials. The licensing alone (not the program costs, which can be even higher PER EPISODE AIRED) for HD delivery of syndicated content to stations is into the high 5 figures. A TV station is a 100-500 million dollar business, with an overhead to match. They'd buy something that cost 50K but could allow them to increase their commercial load significantly in a heartbeat.

The cost would be in the change to receivers. Current, legacy receivers could not be upgraded, and I don't know about you, but I'm not about to spend ANOTHER 4 grand on a HDTV when the one I have still works fine and I never use the ATSC tuner in it anway.

[TyroneShoes]

While visiting my son over the weekend, he wanted to know:
Is there a way to determine if a show is MPEG 2 or 4?There is a definitive way. Select a channel (on a HR2x, of course) and pause it for 15 seconds. Now FFWDx1. If playback is smooth (30 fps), it is MPEG-2. If it is choppy, it's MPEG-4. This works on recordings as well, and is due to the nature of one vs. the other, in that I frames occur every 15 frames or so in MPEG-2, while they can be as far apart as 200 frames in MPEG-4.

[AbMagFab]

I think you may be missing two key points:

1) TV stations couldn't give a rat's hat about compression algorithms per se, but they do care about how much money they can make. That is fundamentally linked to how many commercials they can sell, how much product placement they can muster, and how successful they are to herding folks to their internet presence. And that is limited by how much programming they can offer and how much quality they can provide in that programming.

TV stations would be interested in better compression algorithms for the very same exact reason that DBS and cable are. When bandwidth is limited, better compression = more programming at better quality = more commercials and more people viewing them. It's really just that simple. Right now TV stations are limited to 1 HD signal + 2 SD signals, or possibly 4 SD signals. If they could up those numbers (because they sure aren't about to be licensed for any extended bandwidth), they could better compete with all the other media out there, media that CAN extend bandwidth or buy more bandwidth or gain bandwidth due to technological improvements.

TV stations care more about bandwidth than anyone. And that is probably because they have no option to get more and are stuck with 6 Mhz while competing media can acquire as much as they want, up to a point. Cable has up to 1.5 G of bandwidth, and they have clever ways of reusing it such as switched delivery. Your Slimline is capable of pulling in 5 sats, each with 500 MHz of bandwidth. The world is moving to VOD, which at some point will make local broadcasters a dim memory. Any option to conserve or use their tiny amount of bandwidth in ways that can increase the bottom line is like gold to TV broadcasters. It's their holy grail.

2) The cost for a TV station to change compression to something newer could be as little as 50K, which is about what they might spend on a new HD character generator. A single new camera or production switcher costs many more times that, and they make those sorts of investments regularly. It probably cost each station on average about 10 million to upgrade to the free HD you watch every day, so 50K is like beer money to them.

And that's just to TRANSMIT it. It costs a couple mill to convert to HD news, and another half a mil to convert to HD syndication and commercials. The licensing alone (not the program costs, which can be even higher PER EPISODE AIRED) for HD delivery of syndicated content to stations is into the high 5 figures. A TV station is a 100-500 million dollar business, with an overhead to match. They'd buy something that cost 50K but could allow them to increase their commercial load significantly in a heartbeat.

The cost would be in the change to receivers. Current, legacy receivers could not be upgraded, and I don't know about you, but I'm not about to spend ANOTHER 4 grand on a HDTV when the one I have still works fine and I never use the ATSC tuner in it anway.

To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?

I don't buy it for a second.

First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.

Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.

I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!

(Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)

[shibby191]

There is a definitive way. Select a channel (on a HR2x, of course) and pause it for 15 seconds. Now FFWDx1. If playback is smooth (30 fps), it is MPEG-2. If it is choppy, it's MPEG-4. This works on recordings as well, and is due to the nature of one vs. the other, in that I frames occur every 15 frames or so in MPEG-2, while they can be as far apart as 200 frames in MPEG-4.

Actually it's all by channel number. If it's in HD and it's not in the 70-90 range it's in MPEG4. Simple as that. ;)

[newsposter]

Actually it's all by channel number. If it's in HD and it's not in the 70-90 range it's in MPEG4. Simple as that. ;)

are you sure that's a 100% true statement?

[stevel]

I think that statement is correct, though the "it's in HD" is critical. For example, if you view 501 (HBOE) on an HR10, it's MPEG2 SD, but on an HR2x it's MPEG4 HD. I don't know of any MPEG2 HD channels that aren't in the 70-90 range.

[shibby191]

are you sure that's a 100% true statement?

100% true. They converted the MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 over a month ago up at their "true" numbers. Tons of info on DBSTalk on it.

The 70-90 are still MPEG2 for those with HR10's and they will be shut down soon enough as posted in the first post.

[newsposter]

k well i turned off my premiums but was kinda shocked that no 500s were HD on the hdtivo as of this moment

[stevel]

No, and they won't be. The 500s HD channels are all MPEG4.

[TyroneShoes]

To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?

I don't buy it for a second.

First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.

Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.

I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!

(Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)You don't have to buy it for a nanosecond, but for you to armchair-quarterback imply that someone who goes to work everyday and eats, sleeps, lives, and breathes that environment 24/7 could be so far off base as to have a fantasy about what the real desires of broadcasters are is nothing less than insulting.

I guess it comes under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category, but I was only trying to respond to your question and give you an inside look that would actually answer your question. You're welcome.

If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.

Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.

The question about legacy equipment has already been answered, and yes, that is WHY this is not going to happen and your saying so adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion. Been there, already discussed that.

But you are also completely wrong about it gutting the business model. Were it possible, it would be IN ADDITION to the current business model, which would remain intact. As an example, do you really think that companies that own duopolies (two or more stations in the same market) really worry about those stations competing with each other? Of course they don't. There are plenty of eyeballs, and the trick is to get as big a share of them as possible. If you own two slices of the pie, that can mean as much as twice the profit that a one-slicer gets.

I do live in a different world. The real world. It's quite obvious that you have a primitive and infantile understanding of the issues, so don't expect me to feel like I should defend my point of view beyond this to an audience totally unequipped to "get it". I just looked in the mirror, and it appears that I look like I really don't care if you accept the explanation or not. I'm out.

[AbMagFab]

If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.

Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.

You do realize you're contradicting yourself?

The broadcasters, right now, have two subchannels they can use for content. They generally aren't using them at all, and you agree.

So changing from MPEG-2 will do absolutely nothing to solve the "chicken and egg" issue you mention, it will just provide more space that won't be used.

Compression isn't the issue. It's:
a) Having content to fill the space; and
b) Getting viewers

If you want to argue that the content will just appear, I completely disagree. They can't even come up with enough content to keep the main subchannels populated and alive. And again, there's nothing on the subchannels today. Saying there isn't any content because there are no viewers is fine, but neither issue has anything to do with bandwidth.

Again, if you're trying to say something else, you're not communicating it effectively. Can you try again?

[kb7oeb]

TV Stations need to only provide 1 SD mpeg2 feed to be legal, they can fill the rest of the datastream with whatever they want including mpeg4. Modern MPEG2 encoders allow KXII to run CBS and FOX in HD and MNTV in SD. TV stations won't go mpeg4 unless required and can you imagine the backlash from the people who bought new TVs and converters for the digital transition only to be told they are obsolete and need to upgrade again?

DirecTV is converting to MPEG4 because they need the bandwidth and have no other options . Cable will probably be mpeg2 for a long time because they can free up much bandwidth with SDV and by removing analog without replacing receivers.

[cat1v]

To simplify, you're argument is that they want more subchannels?

I don't buy it for a second.

First - It would obsolete all current receivers. No TV station wants to be on the cutting edge where only a small number of people can receive their channel. That guts the entire advertising model.

Second - The existing stations can't even come close to filling the primary channel with content. There's no conceivable way they could fill even one subchannel with advertiser-friendly content, let alone more than 2. The current set of subchannels consists almost entirely of... weather. The same weather on 4 (or more) subchannels.

I you seriously believe that stations have an abundance of content just looking for an advertiser friendly outlet, and are only hindered by the 2-sub channel limit, then you must live in a different world than me!

(Come back and make this argument when we see many sub channels with actual content and real advertising, and then we can talk. I'm not sure even one fits that criteria right now, at least in my top-10 DMA.)

Here's an example of bandwidth use and making money with it. Before OTA digital Meridian, Ms. had ABC, CBS and NBC. All three are now HD(network programing not local), Channel 11, ABC, is meg4 HD OTA, but they added 11.2 FOX(SD) and 11.3 CW(SD) and they have stated that they have no plans to broadcast either FOX or CW in HD in the near or long term future. The up side is that there is FOX and CW in the area now but they have it locked up and may be a long time before we can get FOX or CW in HD.
I won't say this is misuse of digital and the bandwidth it provides but it is a way to make money and not give the consumer what most want or will want, HD

[RS4]

You don't have to buy it for a nanosecond, but for you to armchair-quarterback imply that someone who goes to work everyday and eats, sleeps, lives, and breathes that environment 24/7 could be so far off base as to have a fantasy about what the real desires of broadcasters are is nothing less than insulting.

I guess it comes under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category, but I was only trying to respond to your question and give you an inside look that would actually answer your question. You're welcome.

If broadcasters were automatically allowed to switch to a new system that doubled their ability to carry content and distribute on an equal basis to what they do today, tomorrow, I can assure you that the programs to fill those channels would be available by the end of the month. Paramount and 20th TV and everybody else sells to the highest bidder or to multiple bidders, and if there was a vacuum, they would be knocking on broadcasters' doors fervently.

Its a chicken-egg thing. Subs have no content because they have no viewers because they have no content because they have no viewers. And they are on nobody's radar. Ask 100 people on the street and maybe 8 of them could even tell you what a subchannel is. If every station could double their ability and everyone understood it and had the capability of receiving it, content would be the least of their problems. DBS has 250 core channels and another 500 niche channels. Each and every one of them have PLENTY of content. The content is there if BOTH the infrastructure and the audience is there.

The question about legacy equipment has already been answered, and yes, that is WHY this is not going to happen and your saying so adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion. Been there, already discussed that.

But you are also completely wrong about it gutting the business model. Were it possible, it would be IN ADDITION to the current business model, which would remain intact. As an example, do you really think that companies that own duopolies (two or more stations in the same market) really worry about those stations competing with each other? Of course they don't. There are plenty of eyeballs, and the trick is to get as big a share of them as possible. If you own two slices of the pie, that can mean as much as twice the profit that a one-slicer gets.

I do live in a different world. The real world. It's quite obvious that you have a primitive and infantile understanding of the issues, so don't expect me to feel like I should defend my point of view beyond this to an audience totally unequipped to "get it". I just looked in the mirror, and it appears that I look like I really don't care if you accept the explanation or not. I'm out.

I know I'm completely thrilled to see 4 sub channels of the local weather. :down: These broadcasters can sure find some exciting content - not!!

As far as I'm concerned local stations are a joke - the only actual programing most of them due are the news, and how much of that has any value to it - maybe 5 minutes out of the hour. The government (we the taxpayers) gave all of this stuff free to these folks, and most of them haven't any idea of what a local program is anymore - the proof is in the junk they put on these sub channels. Even the PBS stations all look a like.

Thank goodness for the cable and satellite video suppliers. If it weren't for these services, the viewing public would be in sad shape:(

[TyroneShoes]

You do realize you're contradicting yourself?

The broadcasters, right now, have two subchannels they can use for content. They generally aren't using them at all, and you agree.

So changing from MPEG-2 will do absolutely nothing to solve the "chicken and egg" issue you mention, it will just provide more space that won't be used.

Compression isn't the issue. It's:
a) Having content to fill the space; and
b) Getting viewers

If you want to argue that the content will just appear, I completely disagree. They can't even come up with enough content to keep the main subchannels populated and alive. And again, there's nothing on the subchannels today. Saying there isn't any content because there are no viewers is fine, but neither issue has anything to do with bandwidth.

Again, if you're trying to say something else, you're not communicating it effectively. Can you try again?Maybe the problem is in the reading and comprehending. I can't apologize that it isn't a simple concept. I can only spell it out so much, you must take resposibility for understanding it. If you don't want to expend that minimal effort, that's fine, but that would also somewhat disqualify you from railing against my opinion.

And if you would read carefully, you would see that stating that broadcasters generally don't use subs and that content isn't readily available under the current status are not contradictory concepts. In fact, each condition perpetuates the other.

I agree that changing from MPEG-2 by itself is not the answer. Broadcasting is a closed system, and so is DTV. DTV had to change both the transmit (encode) protocol as well as the receive (decode) protocol to make the new system work, as well as mount a huge public relations effort to educate folks and put "150 HD channels" on their radar as a reality. Broadcasters can't change away from MPEG-2 in a vacuum and expect to have any viewers at all if they don't provide the STBs and the awareness that these channels exist. Currently, subs are more of a rumor to 95% of the public than they are a reality. Tnat says a lot less about bandwidth or compression algorithms than it does about ignorance, apathy, and lack of focus by the industry. But without a critical mass of ATSC STBs out there, you can hardly blame either broadcasters or viewers at this point.

But the limits of MPEG-2 compression are indeed the precise issues that physically prevents them from adding content, or creating a content vacuum, that I believe would be filled. Take away that limitation and (a very important point that I made that you somehow glossed over, provide a system to support increased bandwith and increased content end to end) and there would soon be more content, more viewers, more revenue.

You can hardly expect to compare the current sub situation, where there are not enough STBs out there to support them and the viewer mindset is such that they don't even know they even exist for the most part, to be a valid example of why a system with more availability for content that DID have a critical mass of STBs and DID have good viewer cognizance might not work. And NOT having that is indeed due to limited bandwidth, or more precisely, limited places to air content. And you can hardly assume that simply changing one aspect by itself, bandwidth, could have any chance of success without changing other aspects, such as the ability to receive MPEG-4 channels and the awareness that they are there by viewers. It would all have to fall into place together, or it would not work at all. But build it, and the content will come.

The addition of hundreds of cable/sat channels since the 1980's definitely created a content vacuum, and guess what? It's now completely filled, and had no problem staying completely filled as it grew. The creation of a system that could support 100-250 HD channels by DTV is exactly what caused most of those channels to launch in the first place, which is just one more example that nature abhors a vacuum. Done properly, a broadcasting system that had more ability to increase content, something now technically impossible or at the very least impractical, would work just fine, without a doubt.

But I've grown weary of arguing hypotheticals. We could just agree to disagree, but that seems like it just won't be enough for you, even though I have an inside view that might imply a certain amount of validity, and you don't.

[TolloNodre]

Maybe the problem is in the reading and comprehending. I can't apologize that it isn't a simple concept. I can only spell it out so much, you must take resposibility for understanding it. If you don't want to expend that minimal effort, that's fine, but that would also somewhat disqualify you from railing against my opinion.


Wow.

That's a lot of verbiage (and vitriol) over a compression scheme.

You must be a lobbyist. If not, you should change careers.

[TyroneShoes]

Wow.

That's a lot of verbiage (and vitriol) over a compression scheme.

You must be a lobbyist. If not, you should change careers.OK, let's take another approach. Let's say for the sake of a completely hypothetical example that you are a housepainter who has had a long and successful career and you innocently post on a website within an ongoing discussion about the subject your professional opinion that using an alkyd enamel for painting a front door entrance seems like a reasonable strategy. And then the next thing you know someone whose last adventure with paint of any sort or kind was eating fingerpaint in Kindergarten comes out and says "Alkyd enamel? You've got to be kidding! There is no way an alkyd enamel is appropriate for that job! What bizarre world are you living in, and just what kind of lousy housepainter are you, anyway?"

Most people would be somewhat motivated to defend themselves against such arrogantly-hostile ignorance. They might even try to carefully explain why they hold that opinion and attempt to bring Mr. d0uchebag into their thought pattern so he could benefit from their professional point of view regarding the subject, since he might seem to have not even an imbecilic understanding of why and seems to be in search of reasons, and also might seem to have a competing theory based on nothing. And if that approach fails to work at winning them over and the hostility continues, there might just be an understandable tendency for you to take an "F you, you're now on your own" attitude.

Case closed.

[TolloNodre]

Most people would be somewhat motivated to defend themselves against such arrogantly-hostile ignorance.

"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides

You're better off ignoring them then - you're not going to change their mind and you just waste your own energy better spent on other things.

[newsposter]

hey i stopped reading the paragraphs a long time ago

can someone tell me who won and what it was about in one 100 character sentence or less

[RS4]

hey i stopped reading the paragraphs a long time ago

can someone tell me who won and what it was about in one 100 character sentence or less

Yup - we had the usual BS from a member who enjoys carrying on with an arrogant attitude, but got all bent out of shape when someone asks for clarification on one of his pontifications.:confused:

[easy-e]

Are we sure it is not today? I'm not getting 70-79 today.

[AbMagFab]

I agree that changing from MPEG-2 by itself is not the answer.

Good, then you should have stopped there, as you agree with me! Would have been a lot shorter that way.

But the limits of MPEG-2 compression are indeed the precise issues that physically prevents them from adding content, or creating a content vacuum, that I believe would be filled.

Ahh, the truth comes out - it's just your opinion, not some super-informed network truth (you should check out who you're talking with before making massive assumptions, my friend). So you must be some back-room engineer, the ones we all laugh at in the front office? Now it all makes sense. Are you also a furstrated actor?

...but that seems like it just won't be enough for you, even though I have an inside view that might imply a certain amount of validity, and you don't.

I think you might be too far inside. Come out of the basement and talk to some of us with windows once in a while, it might calm you down a little!

[tucsonbill]

Just to clarify what I assumed to be obvious ..... the title of this thread should be:

Here is the official end dates of HD MPEG-2
Or perhaps more correctly: Here ARE the official end dates....

[CrashHD]

wow. your grammar are more gooder than his.

[fasTLane]

Good for another month. My latest bill says so. ;)

[incog-neato]

You're more worser then my wife. :)Or perhaps more correctly: Here ARE the official end dates....

[tucsonbill]

You're more worser then my wife. :)
a: Could be
b: Not worse than mine
c:Yes, but my grammar is more better
d: Could be the word you searched for was "than"

[Nugget]

Yup - we had the usual BS from a member who enjoys carrying on with an arrogant attitude, but got all bent out of shape when someone asks for clarification on one of his pontifications.:confused:
The best part about this summary is that both parties can walk away feeling as if they've been vindicated by it.

[incog-neato]

UPDATES: Check the screen crawls

[Rich Peterson]

Are these dates still pretty accurate? I'm especially interested in HBO. I want to use my HR10-250 for HBO HD as long as possible. Are we still looking at mid January cutoff?

Thanks.

[stevel]

There's been nothing announced to the contrary. I would assume that the date is as specified.

[Cudahy]

Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.

[RBerryman]

I have had a HR10-250 for a while and never added the HD package but was getting HBO and a couple of other channels in HD until I had an issue one day and had to call in and have them reset my TiVo function on another unit and they cut off all my HD. I recently added one of their HD units and got the new oval dish and am getting HD content on the new unit, but should I be getting any HD content on my HR10-250?

[shibby191]

Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.

Tivo really has nothing to do with the MPEG2 HD shutdown. It has everything to do with reclaiming bandwidth which they need to badly do since their lease on 72.5 is up really soon and they need to get those SD locals off and on to the main sat fleet. It will also free up space to add more MPEG4 HD. I highly doubt they are all that concerned about less then 50K HR10 users, many of which have MPEG4 equipment already, which they have been offering free upgrades to forever. ;)

[TyroneShoes]

Tivo really has nothing to do with the MPEG2 HD shutdown. It has everything to do with reclaiming bandwidth which they need to badly do since their lease on 72.5 is up really soon and they need to get those SD locals off and on to the main sat fleet. It will also free up space to add more MPEG4 HD...This may then explain why in a lot of markets they are abandoning the local SD stations and centercutting the HD feeds at 480, something they really don't need to do until 2-17-09. Even if they keep them at MPEG-2, the original quality of the HD is better than the NTSC and allows them to compress a bit more with equivalent results.

[codespy]

If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????

In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.

Please don't inflict any more pain than necessary.

[sjberra]

Since the new HDtivo could come as soon as July I wouldn't be surprised if they extended a few of them till then.

What year?

[shibby191]

If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????

In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.

Please don't inflict any more pain than necessary.

Perhaps you don't realize that the plan was to shut them down *months* ago but they had to delay because the MDU's (apartments) hadn't gotten all their dish upgrades done in time.

Understand this: There are very, very few HD subs left that don't have an MPEG4 receiver by now. This has been coming for years and it's finally here. It's not a surprise, and a new Tivo is just a very recent development, still vaporware. ;)

Besides, why are you paying $180 a month to get only 9 HD channels and none of those sports subscriptions in HD? Seems like you should have left a couple years ago, you've been wasting your money in my eyes.

Good luck.

[dwynne]

If they drop them before the new mpeg4 HDTiVo comes out, my wife and many others will divorce us. Is this enough to keep them going you at DTV????

In other words, if you drop the mpeg2HD, I will be forced to drop DTV, go back to rabbit ears, and not pay you $180 a month plus sports subscriptions.


I am not going to go that far, but I will drop the HD package, HBO, and Showtime and just live with OTA HD and the basic stuff (for the non-HD Tivos in the house). By the time the new movies come out on the "premium channels" I have already seen them via Netflix - which costs less than the premiums and give me 12 or more new movies every month.

I have an HD cable Tivo as well and I would probably just pay the cable company for ESPN HD (and a few other channels) rather than give up my HD DTivos for the D* DVRs. Of course, I own mine and not just leasing or renting them and I and out of commitment as well so I could do whatever I wanted with them. I was an early series 1 Tivo adopter and an early 10-250 buyer as well and I do not plan on having a non-Tivo HD DVR if I can help it :) .

It would be nice to know the exact numbers of the folks still using 10-250s, but I would bet it is more than some here would have you believe.

Dennis

[shibby191]

It would be nice to know the exact numbers of the folks still using 10-250s, but I would bet it is more than some here would have you believe.

Dennis

Last number I saw was around 100K and that was nearly a year ago. Probably less then 50K now if that. Remember, there were only 250K HR10-250 in use at their peak a few years ago. Contrast that to 4 million plus HR2x's in use (I know that number doesn't matter, but just some perspective). Other numbers: 18 million total subs, 9 million have HD and/or DVRs. The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error. ;) But seriously, there just aren't that many left and never were all that many to begin with.

[cramer]

Given DTV has 16mil+ subscribers, and there were (far) less than 1mil HR10's ever built, the number of MPEG2 HD subscribers has always been small. However, they are/were all what DTV calls "class 4/5" customers -- meaning they pay DTV a lot of money and thus more valuable.

Bottom line... MPEG2 HD *will* go away. They don't want to continue leasing transponders on other sats. (esp. the 3 transponders on 110.)

[dwynne]

The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error. ;)

As long as they let me keep my HDTivos in service recording OTA I would probably be OK for a while. I would miss ESPN in HD (NFL season only) and the NASA launches on HDNet, but not that much else. I would save a lot of money each month not having the extra channels as well - though the impact on D* may seem like a rounding error to THEM :) . At some point, it might more sense to just hack the boxes and use them for OTA only and quit paying D* anything, but I would think that would be a long way down the road, if ever. Others in the family like a little more (SD) diversity in their programming so would prefer if I kept the basic programming for them.

Loving the Tivos and having upgraded them to larger drives makes me want to keep them. Having to potentially PAY to get a newer DVR and having to have it delivered and installed by someone I do not trust is another point against upgrading. If they shipped me free DVRs and a new dish and let me hook it up myself, then I might be willing to move off the Tivos and onto the new non-Tivo DVR. But to pay them and have to put up with their quality installers means it is not going to happen, I don't think.

Dennis

[shibby191]

As long as they let me keep my HDTivos in service recording OTA I would probably be OK for a while.

Certainly isn't going to be a problem with that. There is nothing "wrong" with the HDTivo's, they just simply can't decode MPEG4 nor see the new satellites. They will continue to function just fine for OTA and SD recording for years to come. After all, you can still use the old Ultimate TV DVRs and they haven't been sold for over 5 years and in fact you could still use receivers from the 90s if you want. If the receiver does what you want it to do, it will still keep on working just fine if you keep it activated.

There are many people that keep their HR10's in service after they get an HR2x upgrade and use the HR2x for the new HD and the HR10 for everything else.

[shibby191]

Loving the Tivos and having upgraded them to larger drives makes me want to keep them. Having to potentially PAY to get a newer DVR and having to have it delivered and installed by someone I do not trust is another point against upgrading. If they shipped me free DVRs and a new dish and let me hook it up myself, then I might be willing to move off the Tivos and onto the new non-Tivo DVR. But to pay them and have to put up with their quality installers means it is not going to happen, I don't think.

Dennis

Well, if you have an HR10 right now you can easily get a free upgrade (which includes the new dish and multiswitch if you need one). As for the installers, I don't let any touch my stuff, but then they don't need to. When I had my upgrade 2 years ago I let the guy do the dish while I did any extra cabling and took care of the switch upgrade and hooked up the receiver. Then all he needed to do was make sure we got a good signal, make sure the receiver was working and just needed me to sign the paperwork and sent him on his way. He basically did nothing with my setup other then replace the dish.

[TyroneShoes]

Last number I saw was around 100K and that was nearly a year ago. Probably less then 50K now if that. Remember, there were only 250K HR10-250 in use at their peak a few years ago. Contrast that to 4 million plus HR2x's in use (I know that number doesn't matter, but just some perspective). Other numbers: 18 million total subs, 9 million have HD and/or DVRs. The number of HR10-250s left is service is almost a rounding error. ;) But seriously, there just aren't that many left and never were all that many to begin with.All of your numbers sound about right. But the only number that means anything to DTV is how many phone calls they would get all at once should they pull the plug. If there are only 5000 HR10s out there and they all turn into boat anchors, that is still a very bad day for customer service. If they send a bullet each day to a group of only 50, that they could handle. I expect a ramped-up push to extinct the HR10 and other SD DirecTivos well before any plugs get pulled, and by that I mean a concentrated awareness program including channel crawls, emails, phone calls, etc.

[shibby191]

All of your numbers sound about right. But the only number that means anything to DTV is how many phone calls they would get all at once should they pull the plug. If there are only 5000 HR10s out there and they all turn into boat anchors, that is still a very bad day for customer service. If they send a bullet each day to a group of only 50, that they could handle. I expect a ramped-up push to extinct the HR10 and other SD DirecTivos well before any plugs get pulled, and by that I mean a concentrated awareness program including channel crawls, emails, phone calls, etc.

All true but they aren't being turned into boat anchors. They will still work just fine, other then not getting those 7 or so HD channels. And DirecTV has been calling and begging the HR10 owners for over a year now letting them know about the change and offering free upgrades so this should be little surprise to anyone. I would also expect once the day comes you'll see crawls on the MPEG2 channels the month or two before shut down once again telling people they need a new receiver and to call for a free upgrade, just as they did on the LA DNS channels before they got converted to MPEG4.

Sure, some people may fall thru the cracks, won't understand or just plain ignore it and of course there will be people that will complain no matter what, but I doubt it'll be all that big of a number or that big of a deal. Shut down just a couple channels at at time and ramp up the CSRs for a week or two after that date to handle any extra calls. No biggy.

[codespy]

......Besides, why are you paying $180 a month to get only 9 HD channels and none of those sports subscriptions in HD? Seems like you should have left a couple years ago, you've been wasting your money in my eyes.

Good luck.

There was a little satire in my post, the wife HATES the HR20 line more than she hates me. If you look at my sig, I do get more than 7 HD channels. :)

[TyroneShoes]

All true but they aren't being turned into boat anchors. They will still work just fine, other then not getting those 7 or so HD channels...Ya think? :rolleyes:

I thought that it was obvious that we were speaking of the 7 HD channels. If those go missing it will light the phones up nearly as quickly as if the DVRs stop working all together. Have you never heard of a metaphor? ;)

[shibby191]

Ya think? :rolleyes:

I thought that it was obvious that we were speaking of the 7 HD channels. If those go missing it will light the phones up nearly as quickly as if the DVRs stop working all together. Have you never heard of a metaphor? ;)

Just making a clarification as there are plenty of people that are confused that their HR10 will no longer work at all, which of course is not the case.

[BBURNES]

UPDATES:

Has there been an update to this mid-January schedule for the mpeg2 shutdown?

[stevel]

No updates. Assume schedule as stated.

[incog-neato]

Check the screen crawls.
Has there been an update to this mid-January schedule for the mpeg2 shutdown?

[HiDefGator]

When counting the number of active HR10's you have to also keep in mind that many of them also have an HR20 active at the same time. Many of the active HR10's may already be assumed to be nothing more than a SD DVR with a really big hard drive.

[restino]

Just curious and confusing for me to understand after reading...

Are the HR10-250 HD channels 70+ going away on some 'given' date yet or no?

[newsposter]

yes the mpeg2 HD channels will go away..at some point, like you said.

[shibby191]

Yes, they are going away in January according the latest info (there is a thread in this forum with the dates). Could change of course but if it gets delayed due to MDU delays it would just be a few months at most.

[stevel]

Yes, they are going away in January according the latest info (there is a thread in this forum with the dates).
That would be this very thread.

[restino]

So when they do end it, whever that is - which may not be until end of next year or later when they get the new DTV/Tivos out ? - can the HR10-250 units still record HD from OTA ?

[BigBearf]

So when they do end it, whever that is - which may not be until end of next year or later when they get the new DTV/Tivos out ? - can the HR10-250 units still record HD from OTA ?

restino,
Yes, the HR10 will continue to record OTA HD and MPEG2 which will eventually be all SD.

I will keep my HR10s running OTA and MPEG2 along with some HR22s until the D* TivoHD receiver replaces my HR10s.

Hope this helps,
BigBearf

[newsposter]

keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.

[restino]

keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.

What does Ice have to do with recorded shows?

[bpratt]

keep in mind on days like today when I have ice issues, you cannot watch any new receiver's recorded shows but HDtivo will still get in OTA and you can watch all your recorded stuff.
This should solve your ice issues:


http://www.cyberestore.com/satellite/satellite-dishes/hot-shot-dish-heater-kit-for-24-to-30-inch-elliptical-dishes.html

[Dssturbo1]

This should solve your ice issues:


http://www.cyberestore.com/satellite/satellite-dishes/hot-shot-dish-heater-kit-for-24-to-30-inch-elliptical-dishes.html

damn, $130 bucks?? even if it worked thats some high profit rip off. and how does it improve rain fade by 75%??

[newsposter]

What does Ice have to do with recorded shows?

if ice/snow blocks your dish, you cannot watch prerecorded shows on the new directv dvrs. :down: (ie if you ONLY have them, you are out of luck regarding watching anything..which i think is utterly ridiculous)

on the HDtivos you can watch tv even with no signal :up:

[restino]

Directv HD DVRS such as HR20, 21, 22, 23 you cant watch recording programs if the sat has no view?

Are you kidding?

[shibby191]

Directv HD DVRS such as HR20, 21, 22, 23 you cant watch recording programs if the sat has no view?

Are you kidding?

Should be able to, they made that possible in a release over 2 years ago. Unless it's broke...

If it's rebooted though and has no signal then it might not be possible, I've never tried that.

As for ice: Warm water...super soaker...no problem. :D

[catfish john]

I received this email from DTv this morning. This should be the official cut off date January 16, 2009!

"As one of our most valued customers, we hope that you are now enjoying your local high-definition channels from DIRECTV.

As you know, until recently, the only way you could receive HD feeds of ABC, NBC, CBS and/or FOX was to add our Distant Network Services (DNS) broadcast from Los Angeles or New York.

Now that we are rolling out local HD channels to more and more cities across the country, our network agreements require that we disconnect the HD DNS feeds from customers in cities where we offer local HD channels.

What This Means to You:
• Because your market area now receives local HD channels from DIRECTV, on January 16 we must remove the duplicate HD DNS feeds of ABC, NBC, CBS and/or FOX. These channels are found in the 80s or 390s ranges.
• There is nothing you need to do.
• There is no impact to your monthly bill.

We wanted to let you know of this change in advance because you are one of our most important customers. Thank you for being a valued member of the DIRECTV family."

Sincerely,
DIRECTV Customer Service

[newsposter]

no signal means no pic..i guarantee it..i lived it

[Crow159]

no signal means no pic..i guarantee it..i lived it

I have an HR21-700 and when I lose signal, during the rare monsoon :), I have NO PROBLEM watching previously recorded content. The problem was fixed many moons ago.

[newsposter]

I have an HR21-700 and when I lose signal, during the rare monsoon :), I have NO PROBLEM watching previously recorded content. The problem was fixed many moons ago.

so how do i get my machine fixed? i would have been happy if could watch prev programs when mine went out but couldnt!

[Crow159]

so how do i get my machine fixed? i would have been happy if could watch prev programs when mine went out but couldnt!

How long ago was this? With mine if I turn on the TV and I'm getting the 771 error that shows you're not receiving sat info, I can go to my playlist and select a show to watch. I know it used to be a problem but they have had software updates that fixed it.

I've done it within the last few weeks. I was watching a football game live and the downpour began. I lose the signal and I'm staring at a blank screen with just the error code on it. I watched something recorded and after about 15 minutes I switched back to the game.

Only thing I could suggest would be to go to DBSTalk and ask about the problem. I would be frustrated if mine worked like that too.

[HiDefGator]

Is it possible it doesn't work if you boot the box with no signal? I can see where it would work if you lost signal but not if the box had never seen a valid signal...

Just a guess. I've never tried this myself.

[newsposter]

How long ago was this? With mine if I turn on the TV and I'm getting the 771 error that shows you're not receiving sat info, I can go to my playlist and select a show to watch. I know it used to be a problem but they have had software updates that fixed it.

I've done it within the last few weeks. I was watching a football game live and the downpour began. I lose the signal and I'm staring at a blank screen with just the error code on it. I watched something recorded and after about 15 minutes I switched back to the game.

Only thing I could suggest would be to go to DBSTalk and ask about the problem. I would be frustrated if mine worked like that too.

woke up a week ago to ice ..blocked signal happened overnight...couldnt get to the list at all or even setup to see what signals were? What's up with that? at least they should let you see you have zero signals!

i know the ultimate test is unplug the cables and see if i can watch but i never remember to do that when i'm home. I did post over there and no one has a definitive answer as to why mine behaved like that. But i must have rebooted over 10 times trying to get it work before a bit of signal was found and i got in to watch something.

[ClubrhythmEnt]

Is it possible it doesn't work if you boot the box with no signal? I can see where it would work if you lost signal but not if the box had never seen a valid signal...

Just a guess. I've never tried this myself.

When the Tivo software is working correctly the HR10-250 will eventually give up and say something along the lines of that it will continue to try to download satellite information and in the mean time you can access Now Playing if you re-start the recorder with no satellite connected. When the HR10 first came out there was a bug that caused the stupid "acquiring information from the satellite" text box to keep appearing at the bottom of all menus even if it had aquired a signal but they fixed that ages ago.

Not sure about this on any other DirecTivo...

[incog-neato]

This is not true.

If you lose all signal you can still watch what has been recorded as long as the sat cables remain connected to the IRD. If you remove the sat cables (and then reboot the receiver) you are correct, you can't even watch recorded programs. Even if you remove the cables you can still watch recorded programs as long as you don't reboot.


if ice/snow blocks your dish, you cannot watch prerecorded shows on the new directv dvrs. :down: (ie if you ONLY have them, you are out of luck regarding watching anything..which i think is utterly ridiculous)

on the HDtivos you can watch tv even with no signal :up:

[newsposter]

no one can tell me why i was unable to watch my stuff while there was ice on the dish then. UNLESS maybe i/it did reboot while was iced up. thats the only way i can think of it

and since everyone agrees a reboot with no signal will make you not be able to watch your shows, i can still call that a stupid function too :)

[dwynne]

Not to be rude, but I subscribed to this thread for MPEG-2 news. If you want to endlessly debate if you can watch records w/o a sat signal can you start a new thread to argue about it?

Thanks,
Dennis

[codespy]

Not to be rude, but I subscribed to this thread for MPEG-2 news. If you want to endlessly debate if you can watch records w/o a sat signal can you start a new thread to argue about it?

Thanks,
Dennis

Thanks for Hi-jacking newsposter....you just got us all in trouble. :D

[newsposter]

Thanks for Hi-jacking newsposter....you just got us all in trouble. :D

Oh it's ok. We can serve detention together. I never had it in school so it will be a new thing in life for me. I'm always looking for new experiences

[smak]

So I can still get HBO HD on my HR10-250 for the next few weeks?

-smak-

[Todd]

ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, HD Net, HD Television
1/14/2009


So what's the latest on this since these channels didn't die last week?

[shibby191]

The only thing official is on channel 77 and many in the 70-80 range have scrollers on them telling people they are going away. April is the last unofficial date I've read for total shutdown.

[incog-neato]

Last I heard HDNET Movies, Universal HD & (I think) Showtime supposedly end of Feb. The rest still up in the air (no pun intended). They keep pushing it back but this is the info we get (all subject to change of course). I've heard absolutely nothing on the remaining 3 or 4 other then "sooner rather then later." So what's the latest on this since these channels didn't die last week?

[dwynne]

Last I heard HDNET Movies, Universal HD & (I think) Showtime supposedly end of Feb. The rest still up in the air (no pun intended). They keep pushing it back but this is the info we get (all subject to change of course). I've heard absolutely nothing on the remaining 3 or 4 other then "sooner rather then later."

Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month :eek: .

Dennis

[WaldorfSalad]

Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month :eek: .

DennisI also cancelled Showtime yesterday, still have HBO though. When its HD version goes I'll likely cancel HBO and the HD package as well.

However, although it sucks to lose these HD channels, its not like DirecTV hasn't been warning us for a long time and offering to upgrade us to the new dish and DVR for free (though with a 2-year commitment). Its just a shame that the HR10-250 wouldn't carry through to MPEG4.

[fasTLane]

...Its just a shame that the HR10-250 wouldn't carry through to MPEG4.
You said it. Totally stupid. :down:

I will hang in there until the new Tivo is offered and keep the Tivo I have until that day.

[shibby191]

You said it. Totally stupid. :down:


It's not stupid. It just technically can't do MPEG4. It was produced and made long before MPEG4 was thought of being used for transmission. Now everyone is switching to MPEG4 (Dish and DirecTV) and even cable is looking at going MPEG4. Technology changes and old stuff gets left behind all the time.

[dwynne]

I also cancelled Showtime yesterday, still have HBO though. When its HD version goes I'll likely cancel HBO and the HD package as well.

I tried to drop SHO online but it would not do it - I am "grandfathered" in on the Total Choice Plus package and the online system will not let me make any changes without choosing a current package. Of course, the current packages have the same channels for more money (what a shock). I guess I will call in and see if some helpful CSR can drop SHO without changing anything else on my service.

Dennis

[fasTLane]

It's not stupid. It just technically can't do MPEG4. It was produced and made long before MPEG4 was thought of being used for transmission. Now everyone is switching to MPEG4 (Dish and DirecTV) and even cable is looking at going MPEG4. Technology changes and old stuff gets left behind all the time.
Let me try again.

DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...that is stupid.

[joed32]

I tried to drop SHO online but it would not do it - I am "grandfathered" in on the Total Choice Plus package and the online system will not let me make any changes without choosing a current package. Of course, the current packages have the same channels for more money (what a shock). I guess I will call in and see if some helpful CSR can drop SHO without changing anything else on my service.

Dennis

Should be no problem at all.

[newsposter]

Sho HD and the others went dark on my HDTivos yesterday. Still have ESPN and 2, HBO, and a couple of more - for now. I will call in and drop Sho since I am not watching it in SD. There you go DirecTV - less money from me each month :eek: .

Dennis

and for 'some people' this will lead them to torrents

[shibby191]

Let me try again.

DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...that is stupid.

Ummm, shutting down MPEG2 has been the plan *long* before there was any announcement of a new Tivo (which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point).

The plan was to shut down all the MPEG2 HD channels over a year ago but they got delayed due to MDU's not being on the ball and getting their dishes and switches updated. So if things had gone as planned they would have all been shut down end of 2007 while the new Tivo deal was announced just 6 months ago. :D

[fasTLane]

which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point.
Vaporware eh? If that be the case I shall certainly return the favor. :cool:

[shibby191]

Vaporware eh? If that be the case I shall certainly return the favor. :cool:

It's vaporware since it doesn't exist. Once it's in public beta then people will believe. ;)

Tivo conference call next Monday, we'll see if they say anything other then "no comment" which is all they said at CES.

[TyroneShoes]

Let me try again.

DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...that is stupid.Is it stupid or does it just not fit your personal DVR timeline? DTV waited until there were very few HR10's left before making this change, which is anything but stupid, and might even be considered a wise business plan, even clever. In their universe of DVRs, the HR10 is probably now down to a low single-digit percentage. You can't change proprietary systems without pissing at least one person off. You might be that person.

Those who refuse to embrace the HR2x are only hurting themselves. They are the functional equivalent of the stubborn old man who sat on his porch with a shotgun rather than be removed from the path of Mt. St. Helens, which turned into a live volcano in 1980 and ended up burying him a mile deep in ash. He made an ash of himself. Adapt or die.

[oversight]

TV stations would love nothing more than to move to modern compression algorithms that would increase their capabilities. MPEG-2 is an albatross around their necks that might put them out of business at some point. Sure, it would obsolete every legacy ATSC tuner out there, but they really need to transition to a competitive future. Tall order. Outcome definitely in doubt.

Interesting point about MPEG-2. Considering that NTSC was with us for 50 years, It is difficult to see OTA broadcasters being saddled with MPEG-2 for several decades.

I would guess at some point the FCC will modify the ATSC standard to allow other compression schemes, then requiring CE companies to incorporate in their gear on a go forward basis. I doubt it would take them long, or cost huge somes of money to to come up with the silicon.

[fasTLane]

Is it stupid or does it just not fit your personal DVR timeline? DTV waited until there were very few HR10's left before making this change, which is anything but stupid, and might even be considered a wise business plan, even clever. In their universe of DVRs, the HR10 is probably now down to a low single-digit percentage. You can't change proprietary systems without pissing at least one person off. You might be that person.

Those who refuse to embrace the HR2x are only hurting themselves. They are the functional equivalent of the stubborn old man who sat on his porch with a shotgun rather than be removed from the path of Mt. St. Helens, which turned into a live volcano in 1980 and ended up burying him a mile deep in ash. He made an ash of himself. Adapt or die.

What a load. You can take your HR2x and stick it where the sun don't shine. :mad:

[cramer]

DirecTV pulling HD content from the current Tivo in the interim...that is stupid.Not at all. Ultimately, *we* aren't worth what they're paying ECHOSTAR for those 3 transponders. (we never were.)

[TyroneShoes]

Interesting point about MPEG-2. Considering that NTSC was with us for 50 years, It is difficult to see OTA broadcasters being saddled with MPEG-2 for several decades.

I would guess at some point the FCC will modify the ATSC standard to allow other compression schemes, then requiring CE companies to incorporate in their gear on a go forward basis. I doubt it would take them long, or cost huge somes of money to to come up with the silicon.There is a critical factor, and that is compatibility. When NTSC was approved, it was backward-compatible with monochrome TV of the era. This meant old B&W TVs were still viable. But NTSC was a far-inferior system to the system CBS was touting. There is a reason NBC had color early and CBS had it late (pride).

For a new algorithm to rise to the fore, it has to be backward-compatible, just like all HDTVs are backward-compatible with NTSC, and will be for some time. Figure 5 years before HDTVs can be made without such compatibility at a minimum, maybe never. MPEG-2 currently takes up more than half if not the lion's share of the 19.34 Mb/s that TV stations are allotted. Something new that incorporates compatibility with ATSC as it exists today is almost an impossibility, a thousand times harder than adding color to analog TV ever was. Regardless what they can do with the rest of the bandwidth, they will be required to use MPEG-2 for their main HD channel for decades, very likely.

The reason, you guessed it, compatibility. We just went through a conversion to a new system and the letting-go of NTSC is proving very painful. Look at how painful it has been for DTV and their customers to let go of MPEG-2, and that is a situation where the STB/tuner is proprietary and controlled completely by the vendor, not to mention that the government is not involved.

It will not be soon that TV stations can reclaim the bandwidth dedicated to MPEG-2 and replace it with something else. TV will be limited to one channel of HD for the foreseable future, which could destroy OTA broadcasting altogether.

[TyroneShoes]

:down:What a load. You can take your HR2x and stick it where the sun don't shine. :mad:As spoken by the old guy with the shotgun on Mt. St. Helens who is about to be sucking volcanic ash for eternity.

I just looked in the mirror, and guess what, I look nothing like someone who gives two $#!+s what you might do. Just try to not let the doorknob hit you in....Oh never mind--it already has, apparently. Why should I expect a mature response to the situation or a measured evaluation of the options when being offered advice? Your true colors are shining though. The truth hurts, but most of us can endure the pain.

Wake up and smell the propane--as far as DTV is concerned, MPEG-2 is dead. It will be soon for all but OTA. Have fun with your 20 boring HD channels over there on cable, and don't forget to take a deep breath for FIOS, as you'll be holding it forever. We'll be pitying you over here while watching/recording 130+ HD channels (not). :p

[fasTLane]

:down:As spoken by the old guy with the shotgun on Mt. St. Helens who is about to be sucking volcanic ash for eternity.

I just looked in the mirror, and guess what, I look nothing like someone who gives two $#!+s what you might do. Just try to not let the doorknob hit you in....Oh never mind--it already has, apparently. Why should I expect a mature response to the situation or a measured evaluation of the options when being offered advice? Your true colors are shining though. The truth hurts, but most of us can endure the pain.

Wake up and smell the propane--as far as DTV is concerned, MPEG-2 is dead. It will be soon for all but OTA. Have fun with your 20 boring HD channels over there on cable, and don't forget to take a deep breath for FIOS, as you'll be holding it forever. We'll be pitying you over here while watching/recording 130+ HD channels (not). :p
Astonishing.... :cool: :rolleyes:

[fasTLane]

Ummm, shutting down MPEG2 has been the plan *long* before there was any announcement of a new Tivo (which is still very much up in the air and just vaporware at this point).From Mr. Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo;
..."Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV’s entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience."...

[bigpuma]

From Mr. Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo;

How does that quote from Tom Rogers in any way dispute what shibby191 said?

[HiDefGator]

How does that quote from Tom Rogers in any way dispute what shibby191 said?

it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.

[bigpuma]

it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.

I would say it is vaporware until it starts beta testing.

That said I am glad that TiVo officially commented on the project. I look forward to seeing this new HD TiVo.

[sjberra]

it sort of implies it isn't vaporware. although I guess until someone has actually seen one you could still call it that.

Sorry it is vaporware until it actually hits the streets in a gold production release in quantity.

There are way to many documented cases of devices that was played up by the marketing and financial weasels of a company, a breadboarded together demo box shown, a few "beta tester" boxes let out and the project was terminated with absence of malace.

From missouri, until it is in the hands of actual paying customers in quantity then it is a actual product, until then it is vaporware.

[fasTLane]

More like vaporhardware.

Besides, the real vapor of this long and drawn out story lies between the ears of one Rupert Murdoch. :down:

[sjberra]

More like vaporhardware.

Besides, the real vapor of this long and drawn out story lies between the ears of one Rupert Murdoch. :down:

hardware/software, who cares, is it still all blue smoke and mirrors until it is actually out in quantity and in joe sixpack end users hands

Different opinions are the life blood of debates as to whois at fault or not at fault, you have yours, I have mine.

[shibby191]

Yea, still vaporware. And all Tom said about it during the conference call was they hoped to focus on DirecTV by the end of the year. No idea what that means but sounds like they aren't working much on it now and hope to put more resources on it by the end of the year. I always said 1st Q 2010 and that appears to be on track because at this point it doesn't look good for end of the year. But hey, who knows.

Good news for Tivo lovers is that it's not canceled.

[sluciani]

Hardware's not an issue. It's likely gonna run on the same HR21/22/23 box design the DirecTV HR2x software runs on, very similar in design to the TiVoHD (and using the same CPU).

If I'm right and it's a software port with no new hardware required, I'm guessing TiVO will throw enough bodies on it so that it really does ship in 2009. There are too many future revenues at stake for them not to make it their #1 priority.

Whether later part of this year is too little, too late to keep the remaining DirecTiVo subs from migrating to HR2x's or leaving DirecTV remains to be seen.

Just my .02. /steve

[JimSpence]

There is a critical factor, and that is compatibility. When NTSC was approved, it was backward-compatible with monochrome TV of the era. This meant old B&W TVs were still viable. But NTSC was a far-inferior system to the system CBS was touting. There is a reason NBC had color early and CBS had it late (pride)....NTSC had nothing to do with the advent of color TV. NTSC was established in 1941 for B/W TV. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntsc. The standard was modified in 1953 for color. The CBS method was not compatible with the then NTSC standard, thus was not implemented. The CBS method may have been a better method but it was decided to not obsolete many thousand of B/W receivers still in use (many of which are still in use).

The fault I have with the current ATSC is that too many HD resolutions have been okayed. Why didn't they just say 1920 x 1080 is the standard?

[stevel]

There was a lot of push for 720p from the networks, ABC in particular. What we got was a compromise, though the multiple resolutions aren't really a big deal and only a few of them are actually used.