9.4, S3, external drive - did Tivo poison-pill us?

[AbMagFab]

So I have 5 Tivo HD/S3's in my house. I've had Tivo for almost a decade in some form. I've done everything up to hacking DirecTivo's and old-school SA Tivo's. In total I've owned over 20 Tivo's of various flavors.

I'm at the point where standard Tivo software offers everything I need, so I don't bother with anything anymore, except upgrading hard drives.

I've had a S3 for years with an external hard drive, and never a problem. When they rolled out 9.4, it killed my FAP. Oh well, I was expecting it as they warned us there was a new driver issue or something. Fine.

So I upgraded to a WD10EACS external drive in an Antek MX-1. Seemed safe as many people have been using that for years as well.

Now, barely a week later, the Tivo S3 has green-screened on me. Not sure what it's doing, or when it will be done. I went in to turn it on and I was getting no signal from it, so I power-cycled it, and that's when the green-screen came up.

After years of never a problem, since 9.4 I've had two severe issues with my S3 + external hard drive. So did Tivo adopt some sort of "poison pill" if we don't buy their hugely overpriced and sadly undersized external drive? If so, I'm really disappointed in them. Currently it's the only Tivo with an external drive I have, and the only one with any sort of problem.

Again, I've had external drives and internal upgrades on all my Tivo's since pretty much the day I buy them. Never a problem, until 9.4.

Just me? Anyone else getting unusually high problem rates since 9.4?

[lrhorer]

'Just you. I have three Series III class TiVos with upgraded hard drives, two of them with external drives. The THD is upgraded with a 500G WD internal drive (actually, it's external: my THD has no internal drive, but the external drive is primary). One S3 has a stock 250G drive with a 750G external. The other is a Weaknees 1T TiVo with an external 1T Hitachi Deskstar drive. The stock S3 / 750G setup does lock up and GSOD every four or five weeks or so. It is reproducble as a problem with the eSATA cable, however, and only happens when the TV is turned on. The EMP pulse from the 400W bulb coming on is too much for the eSATA cable I have. I could resolve the issue by moving the TiVo and external housing, or probably by just replacing the eSATA cable, but since the GSODs are quite brief and always resolve themselves, I've been too lazy to bother. In any case, it's definitely not a 9.4 issue, since it has been occurring since January 2007, when I very first upgraded the S3 with the external drive.

[JStew]

So I have 5 Tivo HD/S3's in my house. I've had Tivo for almost a decade in some form. I've done everything up to hacking DirecTivo's and old-school SA Tivo's. In total I've owned over 20 Tivo's of various flavors.

I'm at the point where standard Tivo software offers everything I need, so I don't bother with anything anymore, except upgrading hard drives.

I've had a S3 for years with an external hard drive, and never a problem. When they rolled out 9.4, it killed my FAP. Oh well, I was expecting it as they warned us there was a new driver issue or something. Fine.

So I upgraded to a WD10EACS external drive in an Antek MX-1. Seemed safe as many people have been using that for years as well.

Now, barely a week later, the Tivo S3 has green-screened on me. Not sure what it's doing, or when it will be done. I went in to turn it on and I was getting no signal from it, so I power-cycled it, and that's when the green-screen came up.

After years of never a problem, since 9.4 I've had two severe issues with my S3 + external hard drive. So did Tivo adopt some sort of "poison pill" if we don't buy their hugely overpriced and sadly undersized external drive? If so, I'm really disappointed in them. Currently it's the only Tivo with an external drive I have, and the only one with any sort of problem.

Again, I've had external drives and internal upgrades on all my Tivo's since pretty much the day I buy them. Never a problem, until 9.4.

Just me? Anyone else getting unusually high problem rates since 9.4?
Not a chance it's just you. People are reporting problems with the guide remaining on the screen after selecting the channel they want, problems with lockups, green screens/blue screens and the ever-popular external drive going to hell in a handbasket. I just sent mine to Western Digital for a replacement and there's never a guarantee the replacement will work with 9.4. Of course, I also lost about 40 hours of programming when I divorced the external drive but I had no choice.

There are quite a few upset people around. Just read some of the comments in the forums.

[AbMagFab]

Not a chance it's just you. People are reporting problems with the guide remaining on the screen after selecting the channel they want, problems with lockups, green screens/blue screens and the ever-popular external drive going to hell in a handbasket. I just sent mine to Western Digital for a replacement and there's never a guarantee the replacement will work with 9.4. Of course, I also lost about 40 hours of programming when I divorced the external drive but I had no choice.

There are quite a few upset people around. Just read some of the comments in the forums.

Yippee... Nice job on the update... My Tivo finally came back up, and it looks like it kept most of the recordings. Except of course it didn't record anything tonight... while it was green-screening...

If it keeps up this low-reliability, I might actually have to consider one of the FIOS DVR's - something I never thought I'd do. But without reliability and ability to expand, the Tivo has little else going for it (the improved UI only matters so much).

[Dr_Diablo]

Since the recent update, the screen goes blank yet the audio continues during playback of a recorded program

[jrm01]

[QUOTE=lrhorer;6592727] The stock S3 / 750G setup does lock up and GSOD every four or five weeks or so. It is reproducble as a problem with the eSATA cable, however, and only happens when the TV is turned on. The EMP pulse from the 400W bulb coming on is too much for the eSATA cable I have. I could resolve the issue by moving the TiVo and external housing, or probably by just replacing the eSATA cable, but since the GSODs are quite brief and always resolve themselves, I've been too lazy to bother. QUOTE]

I have been having the exact same problem with my S3 with WD 1 Tb plus Antec. Once every 2-3 weeks I get GSOD when I turn on my TV. Actually it turns on with a frozen image, then a few remote clicks forces the re-boot and GSOD. It is sitting just under my Mits DLP.

How did you determine it was the EMP pulse from the bulb?

p.s. It has happened for 3-4 months, prior to and since 9.4.

[JohnBrowning]

[QUOTE]

I have been having the exact same problem with my S3 with WD 1 Tb plus Antec. Once every 2-3 weeks I get GSOD when I turn on my TV. Actually it turns on with a frozen image, then a few remote clicks forces the re-boot and GSOD. It is sitting just under my Mits DLP.

How did you determine it was the EMP pulse from the bulb?

p.s. It has happened for 3-4 months, prior to and since 9.4.

Mine does PRECISELY the same thing. Also sitting under a Mitsu DLP. The GSOD doesn't happen every time. The rest of the scenario happens almost every time. It also started for me 3-4 months ago prior to and since 9.4. I forget what external drive I am using, but, it is in an Antec case.

[aaronwt]

Yippee... Nice job on the update... My Tivo finally came back up, and it looks like it kept most of the recordings. Except of course it didn't record anything tonight... while it was green-screening...

If it keeps up this low-reliability, I might actually have to consider one of the FIOS DVR's - something I never thought I'd do. But without reliability and ability to expand, the Tivo has little else going for it (the improved UI only matters so much).

All seven of my boxes have been fine. 100% reliability like before.

[FiosUser]

Don't even think about going to the Verizon DVR--you will hate it (because it really is not very good at all). You would be better off just getting a new S3 without an upgraded hard drive.

[Beachbum55]

All seven of my boxes have been fine. 100% reliability like before.

I always smile when I see your signature line. :) 7 Tivo's??!! Does each person in your househould have their own Tivo?

I have one S3 with a DVR expander and a Pioneer Tivo in operation, and there's no way I can keep up with stuff I record.

[George Cifranci]

I have been having the exact same problem with my S3 with WD 1 Tb plus Antec. Once every 2-3 weeks I get GSOD when I turn on my TV. Actually it turns on with a frozen image, then a few remote clicks forces the re-boot and GSOD. It is sitting just under my Mits DLP.

How did you determine it was the EMP pulse from the bulb?

p.s. It has happened for 3-4 months, prior to and since 9.4.



Mine does PRECISELY the same thing. Also sitting under a Mitsu DLP. The GSOD doesn't happen every time. The rest of the scenario happens almost every time. It also started for me 3-4 months ago prior to and since 9.4. I forget what external drive I am using, but, it is in an Antec case.


I have the exact same issue with my Series 3. My TV is a Sony SXRD (R60XBR1). I have a Antec MX-1 eSata connected to my S3. I have a friend with the same setup and issue but he has the official Tivo eSata drive instead of the MX-1.

Otherwise my Tivo S3 has been fine.

[AbMagFab]

All seven of my boxes have been fine. 100% reliability like before.

5 of mine are fine, too. Just the S3 with the external is a problem.

Quantity doesn't mean much when one has a problem.

It seems enough people are having a new problem with 9.4 that it can't be simply coincidence. Intentional by Tivo or not, the effect is the same.

[brewman]

It's not unique to 9.4. Every software upgrade TiVo has issue has resulted in a flood of "the upgrade killed my TiVo" threads.

It's as simple as this - TiVo's OS writes the new software upload to the alternate boot partition and then switches over to that. If that boot partition has a minor disk error (bad sector) then you're TiVo will exhibit bad behavior ranging from random lockups to failure to get past the power up screen.

If you add the WD DVR expander to their TiVo then you've increased the odds of a disk error killing your TiVo when upgraded.

TiVo (the company) forces you to play russion roulette with your TiVo DVR with every software update, and apparently they've made the business decision that it's cheaper/better for them to not address the problem. This won't change until a competitive product enters their niche.

[AbMagFab]

It's not unique to 9.4. Every software upgrade TiVo has issue has resulted in a flood of "the upgrade killed my TiVo" threads.

It's as simple as this - TiVo's OS writes the new software upload to the alternate boot partition and then switches over to that. If that boot partition has a minor disk error (bad sector) then you're TiVo will exhibit bad behavior ranging from random lockups to failure to get past the power up screen.

If you add the WD DVR expander to their TiVo then you've increased the odds of a disk error killing your TiVo when upgraded.

TiVo (the company) forces you to play russion roulette with your TiVo DVR with every software update, and apparently they've made the business decision that it's cheaper/better for them to not address the problem. This won't change until a competitive product enters their niche.


That's a pleasant theory, and certainly true in some cases.

However:

1) I spinrite'd and surface scan'd and SMART'd the original drives, and they were 100% (no errors)

2) The brand new drives I put it to deal with the original FreeAgentPro poison-pill were at 100% when I put them in.

In both cases, the Tivo green-screened.

It has nothing to do with the hard drives. I know what that is and when it occurs, and these two green-screens in two weeks of 9.4 on 4 different drives had nothing to do with the drives.

9.4 is far less stable than previous releases, at a minimum. At worst, they have put some sort of poison-pill in for non-Tivo external drives.

[Diacritical]

[QUOTE=jrm01;6593071]

Mine does PRECISELY the same thing. Also sitting under a Mitsu DLP. The GSOD doesn't happen every time. The rest of the scenario happens almost every time. It also started for me 3-4 months ago prior to and since 9.4. I forget what external drive I am using, but, it is in an Antec case.

It's not EMP. There is literally no EMP from any commercial lighting and certainly none from anyone's television. It's the voltage change from the startup that causes the device(s) to restart. If you watch the voltage on the same circuit that the TV is on when it starts up, you can see it change significantly when the TV powers up for just a second (it's the same thing that happens during a brownout). Most UPSs wil not help since they don't kick in until the voltage drops to 88V or jumps over 129V.

Move your TV to another outlet. That may be all you need.

--

[cdp1276]

It's def not just you, and I had more problems with the WD TiVo approved expander drive than the SA one I have on my other S3. No issues with that and it was an old drive I used to use with my SA 8300HD when I had that DVR before S3.

[DocNo]

2) The brand new drives I put it to deal with the original FreeAgentPro poison-pill were at 100% when I put them in. <...> At worst, they have put some sort of poison-pill in for non-Tivo external drives.

Dude, put down the tin foil hat :rolleyes:

Funny, my 750GB FAP is working just fine w/9.4 :rolleyes:

for someone who has owned 20 Tivo's, you seem to have pretty thin skin.

For all these problems you are having are you sure it's not an environmental problem? How's your power? Using a quality UPS? Not some line interactive standby unit like a cheap APC, but an on-line UPS (http://www.upsforless.com/doubleconversionupss-1.aspx) that can really deal with and correct crappy power?

It might be cheaper then continually replacing hard drives. But then again it wouldn't be near as much fun impugning Tivo's integrity for smoting you with continual plagues either, would it?

Sigh....

[AbMagFab]

Dude, put down the tin foil hat :rolleyes:

Funny, my 750GB FAP is working just fine w/9.4 :rolleyes:

for someone who has owned 20 Tivo's, you seem to have pretty thin skin.

For all these problems you are having are you sure it's not an environmental problem? How's your power? Using a quality UPS? Not some line interactive standby unit like a cheap APC, but an on-line UPS (http://www.upsforless.com/doubleconversionupss-1.aspx) that can really deal with and correct crappy power?

It might be cheaper then continually replacing hard drives. But then again it wouldn't be near as much fun impugning Tivo's integrity for smoting you with continual plagues either, would it?

Sigh....


You've really got to get a new line... 320 posts and about half of them sound exactly the same.

From simple minds...

[JohnBrowning]

[QUOTE=JohnBrowning;6600510]

It's not EMP. There is literally no EMP from any commercial lighting and certainly none from anyone's television. It's the voltage change from the startup that causes the device(s) to restart. If you watch the voltage on the same circuit that the TV is on when it starts up, you can see it change significantly when the TV powers up for just a second (it's the same thing that happens during a brownout). Most UPSs wil not help since they don't kick in until the voltage drops to 88V or jumps over 129V.

Move your TV to another outlet. That may be all you need.

--

Well, I never said anything about EMP. I simply said I have the same problem. What I didn't say was that the TiVo is running on a quality APC UPS with sine wave output and voltage regulation. I suspect something goofy over the HDMI and will switch to component one of these days as a test.

[saeba]

Over the past week, I've experienced a large number of issues with my TiVoHD with the WD DVR Expander. The system would reboot or reboot and hang. Sometimes, when the reboot failed, I had to power off/on the external drive in addition to the TiVoHD in order to get the system to successfully restart. Today, I removed the external drive in order to see if that clears the problem. The drive is just under a year old so if this is the issue, I guess I'll try to see if I can get it fixed under warranty.

So is there any idea if these issues are with 9.4 or just failing external drives?

Thanks!

[Sevenfeet]

I don't think it's a failing drive. Recently I decided to do a test to see if a MacAlly FW400+USB 2.0+eSATA enclosure would be good for an external Tivo drive. I had one that I removed from a server in my house. The hard drive is a Maxtor 500 gig drive meant for enterprise server applications, so it's not the quietest around and I felt I was likely going to have to replace it with a better suited drive. But it was good enough for this test. Also, the drive had only been in use for about 4 months.

After powering down the Tivo Series 3 I have in my bedroom, I connected the drive via eSATA and powered the enclosure up, then powered the Tivo up. The Tivo recognized the device as a external drive (but non-certified) and asked me if I wanted to use it. After several minutes, it added the drive and everything seemed OK.

But several hours later I turned on the TV to discover that the program guide for the show that was being broadcast was mysteriously on the screen. I asked the remote to clear it, but no response from the Tivo, other than the red light indicating that a remote signal had been received. The Tivo wouldn't respond to any signals at all. At this point I had to chase my kids into their bedtime routine, so I ignored the Tivo for a while. When I came back after probably 20 minutes, I discovered the Tivo had actually followed my remote commands, just extremely slowly. A single command might take 10 minutes to complete. And of course, often it wouldn't do what I wanted at all.

I rebooted the Tivo to see if it would clear the problem, and it did...at first. But after a while, it was doing the exact same symptoms. Divorcing the external drive from the Tivo was the only thing that set my Tivo's behavior back to normal. I've since gone back and asked my Mac to do a thorough examination of the drive (via Firewire). No problems found with the drive at all.

Given the fact that others seem to be having this issue since 9.4, I'm betting this is a Tivo software issue that must of escaped the beta process.

[saeba]

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed information! This is very helpful :-)!

If I could ask an additional question... I haven't been following the progress on this... but is it the case that the latest release can pair with any external drive? Seems that I remember originally you had to go with the DVR Expander or go through a unsupported process. Your response seems to indicate that this has changed.

The reason I ask is that I'm considering moving the drive to my Windows Vista system to check it out... but I'm concerned that I won't be able to reconnect it to the TiVo if I do.

Thoughts?

Thanks!!

[ZeoTiVo]

That's a pleasant theory, and certainly true in some cases.

However:

1) I spinrite'd and surface scan'd and SMART'd the original drives, and they were 100% (no errors)

2) The brand new drives I put it to deal with the original FreeAgentPro poison-pill were at 100% when I put them in.

In both cases, the Tivo green-screened.

It has nothing to do with the hard drives. I know what that is and when it occurs, and these two green-screens in two weeks of 9.4 on 4 different drives had nothing to do with the drives.
I can agree it is very UNlikely a hard drive issue but consider results from google hard drive study (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/18/massive-google-hard-drive-survey-turns-up-very-interesting-thing/)before putting too much faith in spinrite and all
they did find a few interesting patterns in failing hard drives. One of those we thought was most intriguing was that drives often needed replacement for issues that SMART drive status polling didn't or couldn't determine, and 56% of failed drives did not raise any significant SMART flags (and that's interesting, of course, because SMART exists solely to survey hard drive health);
9.4 is far less stable than previous releases, at a minimum. At worst, they have put some sort of poison-pill in for non-Tivo external drives.
I disagree with this statement completely. There were some major re-writes of MRV and other things in previous releases that added some major issues that have nicely settled down in 9.4.

The drivers for the eSATA drive were indeed worked on. TiVojerry posted about that in pointing out the problem can lie in the communication between the enclosure and the TiVo DVR. I highly doubt a poison pill but more a rework to help some issues that leads to others. That is most likely where the problem lies for you. Ubstability there for unsupported drives there for sure, but that does not translate to a blanket statement of 9.4 being a very unstable release.

my data point - I have a TiVo HD with myDVR expander and it handled the 9.4 update just fine.

if I was in your situation I would have gone with an internal upgrade versus a second try at external with unsupported drive. Now I would be definitely be taking the external drive and making it the internal drive only.

[ZeoTiVo]

Given the fact that others seem to be having this issue since 9.4, I'm betting this is a Tivo software issue that must of escaped the beta process.

Why would TiVo be testing unsupported drives?

I understand you all jumped quickly on S3, paid a premium and added external drives before any mention of what was officially supported. This becomes an early adopters pain point. TiVo has clearly stated and the UI indicates the drive is unsupported. To expect any kind of real testing or priority on issues if tested is not really getting a handle on the word "unsupported".

[saeba]

Why would TiVo be testing unsupported drives?

I understand you all jumped quickly on S3, paid a premium and added external drives before any mention of what was officially supported. This becomes an early adopters pain point. TiVo has clearly stated and the UI indicates the drive is unsupported. To expect any kind of real testing or priority on issues if tested is not really getting a handle on the word "unsupported".

Ehm... As I stated, I have the "supported" solution.. the DVR Expander purchased from TiVo.com. And since 9.4, I'm having problems after 10 months of reliable service. I can't say conclusively if it's a 9.4 issue or a bad drive... thus my post. Given others are having problems... I am very suspicious of 9.4.

[Sevenfeet]

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed information! This is very helpful :-)!

If I could ask an additional question... I haven't been following the progress on this... but is it the case that the latest release can pair with any external drive? Seems that I remember originally you had to go with the DVR Expander or go through a unsupported process. Your response seems to indicate that this has changed.

The reason I ask is that I'm considering moving the drive to my Windows Vista system to check it out... but I'm concerned that I won't be able to reconnect it to the TiVo if I do.

Thoughts?

Thanks!!

I had thought about doing a DVR Expander a very long time ago but had held off since I have a history of Tivo hacking and I thought it would be better to do a larger HD like a 750 GB or 1 TB drive. Doing the MacAlly case + Maxtor 500 GB drive was primarily for testing purposes. If it worked out, I might have left it since it was for my bedroom system and not the main home theater. But since the test was unsuccessful, and I didn't care about the data on it.

The big problem with putting your drive against your Vista system is that I'm afraid that Vista may rewrite the drive header once it sees it, totally ruining your ability to ever successfully hook it back up to your Tivo and still retain the old shows you had on it. Some hard drives in the old days had jumpers that made them read only devices, but since this is a drive + enclosure, that's not an option.

The best non-destructive approach is probably booting your Vista system from a CD from the Western Digital that is designed to test the drive non-destructively. Most HD manufacturers have some sort of utility like this. But I would not boot it onto a system with Vista as the boot OS. Heck, I'd be paranoid enough to disconnect the Vista boot HD from my system before even starting.

[lessd]

I had thought about doing a DVR Expander a very long time ago but had held off since I have a history of Tivo hacking and I thought it would be better to do a larger HD like a 750 GB or 1 TB drive. Doing the MacAlly case + Maxtor 500 GB drive was primarily for testing purposes. If it worked out, I might have left it since it was for my bedroom system and not the main home theater. But since the test was unsuccessful, and I didn't care about the data on it.

The big problem with putting your drive against your Vista system is that I'm afraid that Vista may rewrite the drive header once it sees it, totally ruining your ability to ever successfully hook it back up to your Tivo and still retain the old shows you had on it. Some hard drives in the old days had jumpers that made them read only devices, but since this is a drive + enclosure, that's not an option.

The best non-destructive approach is probably booting your Vista system from a CD from the Western Digital that is designed to test the drive non-destructively. Most HD manufacturers have some sort of utility like this. But I would not boot it onto a system with Vista as the boot OS. Heck, I'd be paranoid enough to disconnect the Vista boot HD from my system before even starting.

Vista or XP will never harm any TiVo drive unless you start the disk management program built into both Windows XP and Vista. A TiVo disk looks blank (new) to any Windows system and will not show up using Windows explorer.

[Sevenfeet]

Vista or XP will never harm any TiVo drive unless you start the disk management program built into both Windows XP and Vista. A TiVo disk looks blank (new) to any Windows system and will not show up using Windows explorer.

That's true. Thanks for reminding me.

That being said, I'm STILL PARANOID. :):):)

[ZeoTiVo]

Ehm... As I stated, I have the "supported" solution.. the DVR Expander purchased from TiVo.com. And since 9.4, I'm having problems after 10 months of reliable service. I can't say conclusively if it's a 9.4 issue or a bad drive... thus my post. Given others are having problems... I am very suspicious of 9.4.

good thing I was not replying to you post in my previous post then ;)

What kind of problems are you seeing? Could it be some issue with the internal drive instead? the 9.4 update may just have not installed 100% correctly for you.


My data point stated in another post is Tivo HD with supported DVR expander both on 9.3 and then 9.4 and not having a problem. If it was software then what is different between our systems that the software glitch is not hitting my DVR ?

[saeba]

good thing I was not replying to you post in my previous post then ;)

You might then be more specific in your post than stating "I understand you all jumped..." otherwise it sounds like a sweeping dismissal of everyone in the thread. English. Learn it. It can be your friend ;-)!

What kind of problems are you seeing? Could it be some issue with the internal drive instead? the 9.4 update may just have not installed 100% correctly for you.


My data point stated in another post is Tivo HD with supported DVR expander both on 9.3 and then 9.4 and not having a problem. If it was software then what is different between our systems that the software glitch is not hitting my DVR ?

For three straight mornings my TiVo HD has been hung when I checked it. Either no screen display at all or stuck on "Powering up". Additionally, there are several programs on the unit that were recorded in 2 parts which would signify that it was glitching and recovering during recordings.

Powering off/on the unit would sometimes result in a successful reboot, but more often it would get to "Just a few more minutes", go black and then never finish booting. The only way I could reboot it then was to turn off the unit, turn off the external drive, then reverse to start it back up. That's why I was suspicious of the external drive... arrived here to find others complaining about issues with 9.4 and external drives.

I've divorced the external drive and am now seeing how it goes with just the internal. With the new season starting... not good time to have an unreliable system :(. I'll post once I have a full 24 hours on it without the external drive.

As to why you're not having problems... not all TiVo's are equal. Could be slightly different hardware. Or it could be my drive has gone bad in less than a year.

[saeba]

I've divorced the external drive and am now seeing how it goes with just the internal. With the new season starting... not good time to have an unreliable system :(. I'll post once I have a full 24 hours on it without the external drive.


The system recorded shows and made it through the night without hanging or rebooting. That's pretty significant given recent performance. We'll monitor it through the weekend.... but it looks like it was either a bad drive or 9.4.

I guess we can contact TiVo or WD and see what they want to do as the drive should still be in warranty. I'm a bit concerned that if it is related to 9.4, a new drive won't do much for us.

[davedonohue]

Unfortunately I've just joined this sad club - my external won't show up after about 10 months of flawless service. I'm hoping that the eSATA cable went bad (I did have a bad cable once before). Will run to Best Buy in the AM to pick up a new cable and hope I don't end up having to go back for a new drive. There's a lot of programming on that external :(

[ZXTT95]

Boy, saeba's story could be mine! I have two TiVo HDs, both with the WD Expander. One of them has rebooted once since 9.4, but no other issues.

The other started rebooting last weekend, and got worse right about the time I was trying to watch the Thursday night NFL game. Luckily I'd set it up to record on both TiVos. So I divorced the Expander yesterday evening. The TiVo has been fine since, although we have less than a day.

I took the Expander and hooked it up to my PC. I have two ways to do this: extern JMicron e-SATA ports and an e-SATA port on the case that goes to one of the internal ICH9R e-SATA connectors - this ICH9R method doesn't seem quite kosher since the we have internal SATA to a case port, then e-SATA, but I've used it successfully with a Thermaltake BlacX holding a couple of different internal drives. I also have Vista and XP installed, so I can run the diags under either.

I've had trouble with the Expander, including my PC freezing under Vista/ICH9R and losing connection to the drive and not shutting down the PC under XP/ICH9R. Under XP, the WD diags were failing, with both too many bad sectors and a lost connection to the drive (after which I could not shut down). I've had some issues with the JMicron e-SATA before, so that's why I started with the ICH9R, but now I decided to switch to the JMicron (newer drivers than when I had trouble) and run the zero test (full erase) and then I'll run the other tests again. I have three e-SATA cables to try, so I can pretty much eliminate that.

The zero test is running now. I'll have to finish my tests before I come with a theory. At a minimum I believe the data the TiVo was writing to the Expander was corrupt. Perhaps the drive went bad, the cable went bad, the TiVo e-SATA port went bad or the TiVo was corrupting the data because of 9.4. Hopefully I can eliminate some of these possibilities.

Now, a quick note about e-SATA and drivers. If you look through change logs for the JMicron, you'll see how they've made changes to the driver to solve problems, including freezing, with particular e-SATA devices. This supports the theory that it is possible for driver changes to cause previously working devices to no longer work.

[davedonohue]

Unfortunately, after a couple of trips to Best Buy today I was able to eliminate the eSATA cable and my Antec MX-1 enclosure from the equation. My Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 500GB drive died one year and two weeks after being deployed. I got an RMA from Seagate and will be sending it back on Monday. The Seagate Web site indicates that some RMA's get the option to upgrade capacity and I thought I might be able to get a 750GB or 1TB upgrade option during the process, but no such luck.

My Now Playing screen looks pretty bare :(

[ZXTT95]

After completing the zero diag, I'm having trouble getting the Expander to work with my PC, with either e-SATA controller and different cables. I'm going to have to conclude that the drive is failing. 9.4 off the hook in this case, I would say.

[saeba]

OK, after 3 days of running minus the external drive with no issues, it's obviously something with the drive. Given I'm getting near the end of the warranty, I'm going to ship it back to Western Digital for a replacement.

Thanks!

[ZigZagZiggin]

OK, after 3 days of running minus the external drive with no issues, it's obviously something with the drive. Given I'm getting near the end of the warranty, I'm going to ship it back to Western Digital for a replacement.

Thanks!

Exact same boat. It HAS to be related to the 9.4 update. Why else would SO MANY people's Tivo supported drives just go bad at the exact same time? Coincidence? :rolleyes:

My HD Tivo (with WD's My DVR Expander) had ZERO problems until the update. After the update, the screen would just go black and there would be no signal going to the TV. I rebooted a million times (most of the time it would hang on the 'Powering Up..' screen). When it did reboot, after a few hours, it would go right back to the black screen. I got fed up and divorced the external drive, and everything was instantly fixed. Went an entire week without any problems. So, I decided to try to re-install the external drive and give it another shot. A few hours later, it was back to the black screen. Rebooted it multiple times and it would hang. When it did finally reboot, after an hour it went to the black screen again. So, I once again divorced the drive, and everything has been working again for days without any problems.

This is OBVIOUSLY related to the 9.4 update and how it is related to the external hard drive. Even if I got the drive replaced, I'm sure it would happen again. So now what? Am I just out the $200 I spent on the external hard drive 9 months ago (plus all the extra drive space)? After dealing with Tivo during my trouble getting my cable card working, I have a feeling they won't even acknowledge that there is a problem.:mad:

[ZeoTiVo]

I understand you all jumped quickly on S3, paid a premium and added external drives before any mention of what was officially supported. This becomes an early adopters pain point. TiVo has clearly stated and the UI indicates the drive is unsupported. To expect any kind of real testing or priority on issues if tested is not really getting a handle on the word "unsupported".

You might then be more specific in your post than stating "I understand you all jumped..." otherwise it sounds like a sweeping dismissal of everyone in the thread. English. Learn it. It can be your friend ;-)!.
When I learned english we diagrammed the FULL sentence to learn all the specific parts such as subject and these cool little things that modify a subject to provide more specific info on the subject. So how about reading the full sentence for comprehension of the specific subject matter. In doing this you would learn that if you did not buy an S3 early on then the sentence clearly does not apply to you. :rolleyes:


PS - you might want to read the Subject for this thread as well.

[saeba]

When I learned english we diagrammed the FULL sentence to learn all the specific parts such as subject and these cool little things that modify a subject to provide more specific info on the subject. So how about reading the full sentence for comprehension of the specific subject matter. In doing this you would learn that if you did not buy an S3 early on then the sentence clearly does not apply to you. :rolleyes:


PS - you might want to read the Subject for this thread as well.

The thread has grown beyond the subject line. If you read the entire thread before posting, you would have discovered this along the way. That was the real point in my response to you. The correct English for your intended response then would be: For those of you who jumped quickly on S3, paid a premium and added external drives... See! Clarity is really not that difficult to achieve :p!

I do agree with the concern that a replacement drive could still have issues. There does seem to be something in 9.4 that contributes to this issue. I have had zero issues in over 10 months prior to 9.4 and now find myself with an unusuable drive. And we have a large number of recordings occurring on an ongoing basis. So perhaps there were prior drive problems, but it seems that 9.4 brought these to the "surface" (so to speak ;-) )!

[saeba]

So, I decided to try to re-install the external drive and give it another shot. A few hours later, it was back to the black screen. Rebooted it multiple times and it would hang. When it did finally reboot, after an hour it went to the black screen again. So, I once again divorced the drive, and everything has been working again for days without any problems.

Thanks for this info! I was thinking of trying to re-add the old drive, but decided not to do so (very concerned about reliability as the new TV Season launches :) ). Interesting to know that this didn't resolve the problem in your case.

I'll let you know how the replacement drive works for me.

Thanks!

[ZeoTiVo]

Clarity is really not that difficult to achieve :p!
Correct, I achieved it the first time by specifically mentioning the S3 and replying to someone who was also speaking of their S3. The fact you decide to butt in and take the post and thread somewhere else does not cloud the obvious fact I was speaking about S3 TiVo DVRs.

You want to be all smarmy about it and also hijack a thread and be the one who is actually making things less clear in this thread then go ahead. It seems clear to me that trying to have a clear discussion with you is clearly not happening on your side anyway.

[joropeza]

Add me to the list of MyDVR's that have gone bad since 9.4. The MyDVR is only 3 months old.

After the 9.4 update, the TivoHD started randomly rebooting. It got to the point it was rebooting every 10-20 minutes. I then decided to unmarry the MyDVR and the rebooting stopped.

I will not connect the MyDVR to the Tivo anymore because of the fustration of losing too many recordings. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of having additional recording capacity. I don't know what the hell is going on, but I've really started losing faith in Tivo.

Better luck to everyone else!

JO

[ZXTT95]

Have any of you guys blaming TiVo for their Expander failing tried hooking it up to a PC and verifying that the drive hasn't simply mechanically failed? My TiVo has worked fine since I removed the Expander last week. While testing the drive, my PC could barely function with the Expander connected to two different modern controllers, plus I could hear the drive doing something funny. It's broken.

Consider - if the Expander fails in the month before 9.4, it would be assumed that the drive failed by itself. If it fails in the month after, it seems people want to blame 9.4. We don't know what the failure rates are for these drives. They could be high, and could be especially high after 9+ months. When I replaced the HD in my old S1, the first two drives I put in there failed within a year. They were replaced under warranty. The third drive would still be going after 5+ years, except that I stopped using the S1 when I got the TiVo HDs last December.

[saeba]

Have any of you guys blaming TiVo for their Expander failing tried hooking it up to a PC and verifying that the drive hasn't simply mechanically failed?

I'm going on the assumption that there is something with the drive after the discussions here. I was concerned that hooking it up to my Vista system might create its own issues, so I went directly to replacement. Mine was still under warranty so I'm doing an RMA and getting a replacement. The new drive should be here tomorrow and I will report back once I get it hooked up.

You want to be all smarmy ...

Not smarmy... sarcastic and impatient with pompous posters... but never smarmy ;-)!

[saeba]

I'm going on the assumption that there is something with the drive after the discussions here. I was concerned that hooking it up to my Vista system might create its own issues, so I went directly to replacement. Mine was still under warranty so I'm doing an RMA and getting a replacement. The new drive should be here tomorrow and I will report back once I get it hooked up.

Received the drive yesterday and hooked it up. So far, no problems. I will say that the Western Digital RMA process makes the swap very easy. I chose the "Advance Replacement" option where they send the new drive and then I return the old. All web-based with excellent statusing and I had the drive 4 days after filing the request on Sunday.

[DingoAce10]

joropeza, you just described my exact situation that I started to experience about a week ago, except that I have and S3.

So basically, what I am gathering, watch every recording that I can, remove the MyDVR drive, check it with a PC. I am running Vista 64, what should program should I run against the drive?

This sucks! The drive is less than a year old!!! I bought this specifically because it was supported by TIVO. I would have bought a cheap external drive with an enclosure if I knew that Tivo doesn't care about the external HDD.

I know I bought the drive at BB, but have no idea where the receipt is...So not sure if I can send it back to WD. $200 down the drain I guess!

[janry]

I know I bought the drive at BB, but have no idea where the receipt is...So not sure if I can send it back to WD. $200 down the drain I guess!

On WD's website, they have a page regarding warranty information. Just put in your serial number and it pops up with the information regarding the sale. I know I never registered it so I guess Best Buy did for me. Anyway, I just did an advance return on their website, got the new drive, put the old one in the box they shipped to me in, and mailed it back. Case closed.

Edit:

Here's the link to where you can check your warranty at WD's website.

http://websupport.wdc.com/warranty/serialinput.asp?aspsid=243557977&custtype=end&requesttype=warranty&lang=en

[saeba]

Yes, the WD return process is the best I've seen. As stated, just enter your Serial Number (back of your drive enclosure) on their website and go from there.

I got my replacement drive almost 2 weeks ago and it seems to be working fine. Not too happy about it going out in less than a year and taking a lot of recorded shows, but at least it was easy to replace.

[DingoAce10]

WOW! thank janry!!! That is great! at least I might get a new drive out of it...then when 9.5 comes out we will probably have to do the same thing :-)

So what is the deal with my current recordings...From my understanding, the recordings are not whole peice the on the drives...Each recording is split up on to both drives. so if I unplug the external HDD I loose all of the recordings? is that correct?

If that is true, I have the tivo desktop plus and can burn what I want to DVD anyways...so I am not to worried.

Thanks!

[janry]

So what is the deal with my current recordings...From my understanding, the recordings are not whole peice the on the drives...Each recording is split up on to both drives. so if I unplug the external HDD I loose all of the recordings? is that correct?

That is correct. When I unplugged the DVR-E and powered the HD back up, I got a message the DVR-E was not connected and would I like to permanently disconnect it. Of course, there is no real option so you do and it "divorces" the two and you lose your recordings. Forturnately, I only had 1 show recorded and of course, lost it.

[aristoBrat]

OK, after 3 days of running minus the external drive with no issues, it's obviously something with the drive. Given I'm getting near the end of the warranty, I'm going to ship it back to Western Digital for a replacement.
Just wanted to add that I've had the same experience.

My My DVR was only about 10 months old. I don't have another computer in the house w/ eSATA, so not sure how to test the drive any further. My S3 (which had been flawless until it started rebooting 20 minutes into the new season of shows Monday night ... I'm still surprised my housemates didn't kick my butt :eek:) has been fine since I unplugged the My DVR last night.

[elsteve]

I've been through two My DVR Expanders. The second one I hooked up to my pC and ran complete diagnostics on the drive with WD's utilities. The drive is fine. I purchased a different eSata cable (one of the recommended ones on the forum) and it was flawless on the PC. I then purchased a Sata -> eSata cable and used that on the PC with no problems.

I then took the Sata->eSata cable and plugged it directly into the Tivo HD's motherboard (obviously disconnecting the factory cable) and tried running the expander that way. No dice. Still random reboots every 10 minutes or so...

So, in summary, I eliminated the drive, the cable and the connector on the back-plane of the Tivo as potential problems. The only two things that are left are 1) the eSata port directly on the motherboard or 2) the 9.4 software. Neither of which I can fix.

My 1TB WD replacement internal drive will be here THursday. I'm giving up on the external storage and now have a useless external drive lying around...(sigh)

I can't believe Tivo has no official comment on this (obviously) widespread problem...

[DingoAce10]

Man it just keeps getting progressively worse...Reboots, freezing...having the tivo not see the external drive.
I have a bunch of recordings on it right now since it is premier week, but I might have to just bite the bullet and remove the drive earlier than I wanted to.
I am hoping that I can grab a couple of them off the tivo tonight so I can at least watch them.

Just one question, is leaving this plugged in this long going to hurt the actual tivo or is it just hurting the external drive.

I just submitted my request to WD and hopefully will get a new drive soon...but I don't have high hopes for it to actually work.

Would hacking the internal drive be a better way to go?

Thanks!

[saeba]

I just submitted my request to WD and hopefully will get a new drive soon...but I don't have high hopes for it to actually work.

Would hacking the internal drive be a better way to go?


I went through the RMA process and attached the replacement drive to my TiVoHD 2 weeks ago. I've had no problems with it thus far in pretty heavy usage. So, it can work (at least in the short-term).

As to best option... if the drive is still under warranty, it's about $7 in shipping to get a new one. That seemed a good option to me. However, without knowing if this is just a case of a bad batch of drives all failing after about 10 months of operation or an issue with 9.4 and external drives, hard to say what's best in the long term.

[DingoAce10]

I bet the reason why it seems to be working ok with 9.4 is because the new drive was formatted for it...New drivers added or something (not really sure how tivo's internals work), but since it have to formatted the new drive when you install it...Tivo 9.4 probably put the correct information on to the new drive.
Just a theory though...Could be talking out of my arse.

Thanks for the heads up.

[jtreid]

I gotta pipe in. In the recent weeks, post 9.4, I've been getting delayed remote response as documented in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=404893). Now I do understand that the FreeAgent Pro is an "unsupported" drive, but I had it since the kickstart whatever it was was discovered to enable the eSata port and I added it. Of course, this was back a long time ago. I had some strange issues in the earlier days with the S3/FAP combo but I think that was 8.X stuff causing it, but they cleared up for some unknown reason. Now, since 9.4, I get this delayed response occasionally that really PI$$ you off. It comes and goes days at a time.

I'm not dare pulling it out now with what's on TV now so I'm choosing to live with it until either I throw the remote through the plasma or yank the tivo out of the cabinet.

To me...it's just too coincidental that all this happed post 9.4. Maybe they did rewrite drivers and tweaked it to work best with the MyDVR expander. However, in doing so, they could have introduced these problems with the drives they do not support and, thus, did not test with the new build. Purposefully or not, it's a sad state of affairs for those of us with these "unsupported" drives. In having one, I cannot even get support from tivo unless I first divorce the FAP. I don't expect that we'll ever see an official fix for them either since they are "unsupported".

[hhh222]

FYI on the intermittent remote problems. The remote response was always a bit weak on my series 3 and then became unbearably so [not sure but it may have been around the time 9.4 came out]. The light on the Tivo always lit when I pressed a remote button but the S3 did not always respond. I have remotes from my HR10-250's and coded it to the S3 and it works fine so, in my case,it was the remote itself even though the light on the Tivo said it was receiving the signal.

[hhh222]

Oh yeah...glad i found this thread as I just tried to install a My DVR Expander on my S3 and it wouldn't recognize it. I think I'll just send it back to costco after reading of all the recent problems.

[aristoBrat]

Just wanted to add that I've had the same experience.

My My DVR was only about 10 months old. I don't have another computer in the house w/ eSATA, so not sure how to test the drive any further. My S3 (which had been flawless until it started rebooting 20 minutes into the new season of shows Monday night ... I'm still surprised my housemates didn't kick my butt :eek:) has been fine since I unplugged the My DVR last night.
Just an update that my warranty replacement My DVR has been working perfectly with my S3. Zero reboots.

[drjlb]

I'm having the same issues as everyone else, S3 has worked fine for 1.5+ years. Added a my DVR expander around 10 months ago, and now I am having freeze during playback and rebooting issues. I tried the clear and delete thumbs that was suggested by Cajun Man in another thread. It did not work.

So far the reboots have not been too bad, 1 per day or so but not correlated with anything specific. However, last night, while watching a recording, I got the freeze/reboot at a specific place. If I was watching the recording, it would reboot, fast forwarding across the spot would reboot, skip to tick past the spot allowed me to keep watching the program.

Obviously there is a bad sector in this program, my question is should I keep this recording? By deleting it, I'm just freeing up the disk space to be used again, by keeping it, at least the space is used. I don't think for a minute that this is the only problem, and I'm sure something more permanent will need to be done, but I am hesitant to permanently divorce the external HDD because of show loss.