Using the TiVo HD with a DVD burner?

[gastrof]

I've been thinking about getting a Lifetimed HD for a good while now. Had originally been going to do it when the Series 3 was released, but then they yanked Lifetime.

Now it's back, and the version of the Series 3 that's available is less expensive. So much the better.

One thing-

I've gotten used to using a non-TiVo DVR that has a DVD burner in it. (I save certain TV shows that I record, originally on VHS, now on disc.)

My past experience with my Series 1s and DVDs has included having to replay each show in real time while recording to the disc. Quality has never been a problem. I know there's got to be a loss due to the analog cables feeding the signal (it's obviously not a digital transfer) but you sure can't complain about the results.

It's the time involved that bugs me. Playing the whole thing back in real time? Worse if you want to make a second copy? And needing to be there to stop the recorder at just the right moment if you're putting more than one recording on each disc?

The same problem would be there with an HD.

The only solution I can think of is to have my other DVR be fed by the TiVo HD, and have it also record at the same time, so the recording can be fed to a disc in faster-than-real-time. The fact it won't be HD doesn't bother me. I'm more interested in having the recording than in the "it looks REAL!!!" picture quality.

The TiVo HD being able to access digital channels (whether OTA or, with cable cards, cable) is more important. Not the picture quality of the final product.

Can anyone comment on this? The "lumpiness" of having the other DVR be fed by the TiVoHD and the two hard drives recording at the same time? (I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.) Serious drawbacks? Anyone who already does this care to describe the pluses and minuses? Anyone else who can think of any? Any chance there'll eventually be a disc-burning HD TiVo? (Preferably with the ability to edit out "certain portions" of a recording before creating a disc.)

Any and all comments welcome, except for trollish/flaming ones.

Thanks.

[jlb]

Why not network the TiVoHD, transfer programs to your computer, and burn playable DVDs?

I kick a bunch of transfers off before going to bed. Then, the next night, I fire off VideoRedo TVSuite and let it do everything and then I wake up with a playable DVD in the morning.

[gastrof]

Why not network the TiVoHD, transfer programs to your computer, and burn playable DVDs?

I kick a bunch of transfers off before going to bed. Then, the next night, I fire off VideoRedo TVSuite and let it do everything and then I wake up with a playable DVD in the morning.

"(I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.)" :(

PS
Noticed your sig. You do realize that wasn't really Patrick Stewart's own hair, don't you? It's rumored he's bald. :D

[rocko]

If you have any networking at all you might look into a used S2 with a DVD recorder (Humax, whatever.) - MRV from the HD to the S2 hybrid and burn away.

Of course that's another subbed unit but maybe you retire one of your current units.

Edit - Oops, both your current boxes are unsubbed.

[gastrof]

:(

"(I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.)"

Is anybody listening?

[gastrof]

Besides, the TiVo DVD recorders can't accept recordings from the Series 3s that were made in high def, and they also can't edit before burning to disc...or after.

[rambler]

nm

[pdonoghu]

If you have any networking at all you might look into a used S2 with a DVD recorder (Humax, whatever.) - MRV from the HD to the S2 hybrid and burn away.

You can only burn to DVD recordings originally made on the DVD capable Tivo. MRVed recordings can not be burned.

[rocko]

:(

"(I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.)"

Is anybody listening?

Yes. I was listening - that's why I italicized any. You didn't say that you had NO network, you said it wasn't very good.

I wonder why I even try. Geez. :rolleyes:

[rocko]

You can only burn to DVD recordings originally made on the DVD capable Tivo. MRVed recordings can not be burned.

Thanks - I obviously didn't know that. Carry on :o

[fallingwater]

The only solution I can think of is to have my other DVR be fed by the TiVo HD, and have it also record at the same time, so the recording can be fed to a disc in faster-than-real-time. The fact it won't be HD doesn't bother me. I'm more interested in having the recording than in the "it looks REAL!!!" picture quality.

The TiVo HD being able to access digital channels (whether OTA or, with cable cards, cable) is more important. Not the picture quality of the final product.

Can anyone comment on this? The "lumpiness" of having the other DVR be fed by the TiVoHD and the two hard drives recording at the same time? (I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.) Serious drawbacks? Anyone who already does this care to describe the pluses and minuses? Anyone else who can think of any? Any chance there'll eventually be a disc-burning HD TiVo? (Preferably with the ability to edit out "certain portions" of a recording before creating a disc.)

Any and all comments welcome, except for trollish/flaming ones.

Thanks.

Absolutely!

I use a Toshiba TiVo DVD recorder and an LG MS based DVD recorder in precisely the manner you refer to. The Toshiba with TiVo Basic records from an S3 while the LG records either from its tuner or a HD Comcast box which just replaced a digital standard-def cable box. If you record from any dual tuner TiVo make sure that the TiVo won't inadvertantly swap tuners as it does when recording Suggestions.

I too don't care about recording in hi-def, and don't want to deal with transferring programs to a PC or another DVR before recording them. I have a third DVD recorder which works much like a DVR, with a 6 hour fully editable recrding buffer, to which I can route any of the others' signals, useful for recording programs after they're over.

While TiVo is the most user friendly of HDD recorders its DVD recorders have more limited functionality than others. For example, the LG retains its 1.5 hr. recording buffer through channel changes.

[RonDawg]

(I don't have a very good computer setup, so even trying to use TTG or something similar to get a show to DVD isn't an option. Not right now, anyway.)

What are the specs? I had a reasonably good video editing experience using a circa-2001 Pentium 4 computer with a built-in video card and VideoReDo.

I used standalone DVD recorders long before TTG was enabled. I rarely use them now because TTG is much easier and the edits are much more precise on a computer than on a DVD recorder.

[gastrof]

Yes. I was listening - that's why I italicized any. You didn't say that you had NO network, you said it wasn't very good.

I wonder why I even try. Geez. :rolleyes:

Actually, nothing was said nothing about a network. I said the computer setup I have isn't very good, and TTG or something similar isn't even an option.

You then suggest that very thing? :confused:

[fallingwater]

...edits are much more precise on a computer than on a DVD recorder.

Would you elaborate regarding editing precision?

I have two component style DVD recorders which have the ability to edit. One allows for playlist editing (rearranging the sequence of chapters) the other requires that chapters remain in their original sequence. Both delete program material as desired or divide a program in two. Once divided a program cannot be recombined. However both divide or combine chapters within a recording.

Both edit precisely to individual frames in the forward direction but only to fully encoded frames in reverse. The recorder without playlist editing allows deleted material to be retained in an uncut version which can then be re-edited. The other recorder deletes material permanently.

Both provide full titling along with changing a program's signature image.

What functionality am I missing?

[RonDawg]

It's more precise with something like VideoReDo because you can see where the frames are. DVD recorders do not do this, you have to pause and go frame by frame in order to find where a series of frames start and end. With some channels like Discovery where there is no gap between say the program and a commercial, this can be difficult to do precisely with a DVD recorder.

One thing that is difficult if not impossible to do with a standalone DVD recorder is know when the audio cuts in and out. Most of the time it's when the video frames end, but not always; sometimes the audio continues on after the frames appear to have gone dark. With VideoReDo, you see a line at the bottom that shows exactly where this happens.

Also, editing is a LOT faster on VideoReDo than with a DVD recorder. One reason is again you're not fast forwarding/rewinding/pausing/frame-by-frame advancing to find the desired edit point, you can see where it starts and ends.

Another thing you can't do with a DVD recorder: remove letterboxing and side bars. If you record off of certain SD channels like Discovery and play them back on a widescreen TV, you end up with bars on all four sides because of the pre-letterboxing, and because the widescreen TV thinks it is a 4:3 program side bars appear as well. VideoReDo lets you remove the letterboxing so that it comes out full screen on a widescreen TV without stretching or zooming, which kills PQ.

I also like the fact that when transferring a program directly to the PC using TTG, I am skipping another analog-digital conversion step, which each time you do this also affects PQ.

As I've stated before, nowadays I only use standalone DVD recorders when I want to archive a program that has been copy-protected, or view it on a different TV, since these won't transfer via TTG/MRV.

[dylanemcgregor]

Actually, nothing was said nothing about a network. I said the computer setup I have isn't very good, and TTG or something similar isn't even an option.

You then suggest that very thing? :confused:

He was actually suggesting MRV, not TTG, so no computer would be involved...

Of course his suggestion wouldn't actually work as was already stated, but no need to jump all over the guy for trying to be helpful.

[fallingwater]

It's more precise with something like VideoReDo because you can see where the frames are. DVD recorders do not do this, you have to pause and go frame by frame in order to find where a series of frames start and end. With some channels like Discovery where there is no gap between say the program and a commercial, this can be difficult to do precisely with a DVD recorder.

One thing that is difficult if not impossible to do with a standalone DVD recorder is know when the audio cuts in and out. Most of the time it's when the video frames end, but not always; sometimes the audio continues on after the frames appear to have gone dark. With VideoReDo, you see a line at the bottom that shows exactly where this happens.

Also, editing is a LOT faster on VideoReDo than with a DVD recorder. One reason is again you're not fast forwarding/rewinding/pausing/frame-by-frame advancing to find the desired edit point, you can see where it starts and ends.

Another thing you can't do with a DVD recorder: remove letterboxing and side bars. If you record off of certain SD channels like Discovery and play them back on a widescreen TV, you end up with bars on all four sides because of the pre-letterboxing, and because the widescreen TV thinks it is a 4:3 program side bars appear as well. VideoReDo lets you remove the letterboxing so that it comes out full screen on a widescreen TV without stretching or zooming, which kills PQ.

I also like the fact that when transferring a program directly to the PC using TTG, I am skipping another analog-digital conversion step, which each time you do this also affects PQ.

As I've stated before, nowadays I only use standalone DVD recorders when I want to archive a program that has been copy-protected, or view it on a different TV, since these won't transfer via TTG/MRV.

Thanks for your reply.

I have a slow and cheap powerline carrier based home network which doesn't support realtime video but otherwise works well for my largely text based needs. MRV transfering between TiVos takes approx. 1.5 x realtime and often fails completely.

I agree that VideoReDo enables faster and easier editing, but don't agree that overall it makes for more precise editing when a user is experienced at using outboard component DVD recorders.

Interestingly, TiVo is an ideal source for component DVD recorders as hi-def TiVos automatically provide anamorphically compressed standard-def signals and resulting DVDs are identical to pre-recorded DVDs when played back. Motorola's cable DVRs and STB boxes, OTOH, send compressed 16 x 9 images which need VideoReDo, IMHO, the worst shortcoming of cable boxes. A single Moto hi-def STB provides VOD and the full cable line-up in a location where I use an S3 sans CableCARDS. (There are far too many cable channels to really care about (YMMV!), but non-CC'd hi-def TiVos get Basic Cable's analog and OTA hi-def simulcasts for free!)

There are two very different means of eliminating DVD copy protection (which I use only for creating back-up copies for personal use) when duplicating DVD's on an ouboard component recorder.

I've found that, for the great majority of programs recorded to DVD, mostly PBS stuff, I really don't care about precision editing and just use TiVo's or LG's DVR/DVD recorders. (Too bad there's no cheap DVD recorder available which only offers a 'divide' capability with no other editing features!)

[rocko]

Actually, nothing was said nothing about a network. I said the computer setup I have isn't very good, and TTG or something similar isn't even an option.

You then suggest that very thing? :confused:

Swell. Here's the second one for you.

*plonk*

[ZeoTiVo]

Actually, nothing was said nothing about a network. I said the computer setup I have isn't very good, and TTG or something similar isn't even an option.

You then suggest that very thing? :confused:

well it really is the very answer to your question :)

for 500$ get a standard PC with a dual layer DVD burner in it and an ethernet cable ypu can hook up directly to the TiVo HD. Pull the shows over with a variety of software and then edit with a variety of software and then burn with a variety of software.

The PC is your most flexible option as you can upgrade the DVD burner or sftware as needed. For 500$ adn some shopping around you can probably even get a PC with a TV recorder card in it and still do a real time record from other sources or if the show is copy protected.

Also you may find you no longer need to burn DVDs even and just store the shows on a PC and copy backa show to watch as desired. Check out PyTiVo for really easy folder sorting of the shows.

other than that you are stuck doing real time recordings from the TiVo HD to something else as your only option unless you hack the Tivo HD

[fallingwater]

...other than that you are stuck doing real time recordings from the TiVo HD to something else as your only option unless you hack the Tivo HD

For utmost simplicity why not just record a program on an outboard DVD recorder supplied from a TiVo HD/S3 when it airs in hi-def in the first place?

[ZeoTiVo]

For utmost simplicity why not just record a program on an outboard DVD recorder supplied from a TiVo HD/S3 when it airs in hi-def in the first place?

well sure you can do it while the TiVo is recoring it as well. Still real time though.

[gastrof]

He was actually suggesting MRV, not TTG, so no computer would be involved...

Of course his suggestion wouldn't actually work as was already stated, but no need to jump all over the guy for trying to be helpful.



:confused:


Well, since we're talking about creating DVDs off a TiVo HD, I'd assume any networking would have to involve a computer somewhere along the line. Since I don't have a very good computer setup, how would I have a network?

I didn't jump all over him. He suggested something I'd said isn't an option. So if it's not an option, why suggest it?

[gastrof]

For utmost simplicity why not just record a program on an outboard DVD recorder supplied from a TiVo HD/S3 when it airs in hi-def in the first place?

well sure you can do it while the TiVo is recoring it as well. Still real time though.

Fallingwater may be suggesting something I wondered about in the opening post- Running the DVD/HardDrive recorder at the same time, getting its feed from the TiVo HD. Both machines record, and the DVD/HardDrive machine gets a downrezzed version of the program that I can then use to make as many discs (at high speed) as I want.

The TiVo HD is serving both as a cable box (but with a programable timer) and a backup recorder in case something somehow goes wrong with the DVD/HardDrive machine.

My only question about this method was if anyone can think of any drawbacks that haven't come to mind. (Of course, any PLUSSES that haven't come to mind yet would be welcome as well. :p )

Aside from not setting up recordings on both TiVo tuners at the same time (and messing up just what it is that's being fed to the DVD/HardDrive machine), I can't think of any other potential problems.

I know it may be a bit much to have the TiVo and not use it as the real workhorse, but having the option of making discs of shows is important in my recording. (That's why I questioned the possibility of a future TiVo HD having some type of disc burner built in.)

Anyway, the forum's still open...

[RonDawg]

I have a slow and cheap powerline carrier based home network which doesn't support realtime video but otherwise works well for my largely text based needs. MRV transfering between TiVos takes approx. 1.5 x realtime and often fails completely.

I too have a relatively slow powerline network for one of my TiVo's using NetGear XE101's (12 Mb/sec, usually less) but while it too cannot support live streaming from another TiVo, I have very few transfer failures with it.

I agree that VideoReDo enables faster and easier editing, but don't agree that overall it makes for more precise editing when a user is experienced at using outboard component DVD recorders.

Again I've pointed out the shortcomings when editing with a DVD recorder. Have you even used VideoReDo? If you can't import TiVo files into your computer over a network, it will do so from a DVD.

Interestingly, TiVo is an ideal source for component DVD recorders as hi-def TiVos automatically provide anamorphically compressed standard-def signals and resulting DVDs are identical to pre-recorded DVDs when played back. Motorola's cable DVRs and STB boxes, OTOH, send compressed 16 x 9 images which need VideoReDo, IMHO, the worst shortcoming of cable boxes.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP's topic, or your specific challenge to me about proving how editing on a PC is superior to using a standalone DVD recorder, but I will address it.

As far as anamorphically compressed, that is great if you ONLY plan on playing back the disc on a widescreen TV. But if you plan on playing it back on a standard aspect TV, or will be giving the disc to someone who will, the result is that "tall and skinny" look.

That's because almost no DVD recorders have the capability of inserting a widescreen flag; although I have been out of the DVD recorder market for a long time, AFAIK only two DVD recorders ever imported into the US had the ability to insert this flag into its recordings, and both were made by Sony: the GX-300 and the hard drive equipped HX-900 which is what I own.

This is also where a program like VideoReDo is superior to a DVD recorder; it addition to un-letterboxing a program, it can also letterbox one as well. I've never tried the latter, but I believe it does so like the two Sony's above by simply adding a widescreen flag.

There are two very different means of eliminating DVD copy protection (which I use only for creating back-up copies for personal use) when duplicating DVD's on an ouboard component recorder.

As I also stated above, the only advantage of a standalone DVD recorder with a TiVo is to get around copy-protection, which disables TTG/MRV for that program. But DVD recorders are still subject to analog copy protection methods (i.e. Macrovision) as someone from the UK recently posted about.

I've found that, for the great majority of programs recorded to DVD, mostly PBS stuff, I really don't care about precision editing and just use TiVo's or LG's DVR/DVD recorders. (Too bad there's no cheap DVD recorder available which only offers a 'divide' capability with no other editing features!)

I watch mostly OTHER than PBS, which means I have to deal with commercials. Even with PBS, such as the recent documentary "Carrier" it would still be nice to cut out things like "this program is sponsored by" promos, pledge drives, and other stuff that while not commercials is still extraneous.

As far as precision, I admit I am pickier than others, but if it's possible to be this picky without too much more expense (VideoReDo is under $100) and is even easier than your method, then why not? In addition to the Sony, whose editing abilities I admit is far from perfect, I also have a Pioneer unit (model number similar to DVR-425H) whose editing abilities are quite good...for a standalone DVD recorder. But it still can't hold a candle to a PC or Mac and a good editing program.

[fallingwater]

well sure you can do it while the TiVo is recording it as well. Still real time though.

Unless a program source is a downloaded file or DVD to begin with all programs need to be recorded in realtime first.

I avoid recording hi-def programs to S3 or HD TiVos because hi-def is a HDD hog. Hi-def programs are fine to watch in realtime with TiVo's half hour buffer to fall back on but recording them in hi-def is wasted when the objective is to make a DVD.

A caveat when recording simultaneously on hi-def TiVo and DVD recorder is that care must be taken to insure that hi-def TiVo won't inadvertantly swap tuners and cause the DVD recorder to record the wrong program. Recording 'Suggestions' is a potential trap, and, in addition, hi-def TiVo should be on the same channel that is to be recorded before the recording begins, which makes setting up simultaneous recordings complicated.

[fallingwater]

Aside from not setting up recordings on both TiVo tuners at the same time (and messing up just what it is that's being fed to the DVD/HardDrive machine), I can't think of any other potential problems.

I know it may be a bit much to have the TiVo and not use it as the real workhorse, but having the option of making discs of shows is important in my recording. (That's why I questioned the possibility of a future TiVo HD having some type of disc burner built in.)

If you want to record Suggestions and record programs in hi-def as well as on a DVD recorder a simple workaround is to record the same program simultaneously on both of TiVo's hi-def tuners as well as the DVD recorder. When the recording is over one of the hi-def copies can immediately be deleted.

Wouldn't it be great to have a hi-def TiVo HDD\/DVD/BD recorder! At present such a machine appears very unlikely for both economic and copyright reasons.

[fallingwater]

I too have a relatively slow powerline network for one of my TiVo's using NetGear XE101's (12 Mb/sec, usually less) but while it too cannot support live streaming from another TiVo, I have very few transfer failures with it.

MRV for me is a hassle. I have enough transfer failures not to want to deal with it routinely.

Again I've pointed out the shortcomings when editing with a DVD recorder. Have you even used VideoReDo? If you can't import TiVo files into your computer over a network, it will do so from a DVD.

VideoReDo sounds great, but I don't want to fill my PC's HDD with large video files and then deal with the unknown complications that all computer software seems to bring. I'm not computer oriented even though I know the basics.

As far as anamorphically compressed, that is great if you ONLY plan on playing back the disc on a widescreen TV. But if you plan on playing it back on a standard aspect TV, or will be giving the disc to someone who will, the result is that "tall and skinny" look. This is also where a program like VideoReDo is superior to a DVD recorder; it addition to un-letterboxing a program, it can also letterbox one as well.

Good point! Don't pre-recorded anamorphic DVD's have identical limitations unless they offer a pan/scan version on the same disc? I use 16x9 TV/monitors and only record DVDs for personal use.

the only advantage of a standalone DVD recorder with a TiVo is to get around copy-protection, which disables TTG/MRV for that program. But DVD recorders are still subject to analog copy protection methods (i.e. Macrovision) as someone from the UK recently posted about.

Copy protection is a hassle which I've managed to defeat in all its various forms by using two products no longer available.

As far as precision, I admit I am pickier than others, but if it's possible to be this picky without too much more expense (VideoReDo is under $100) and is even easier than your method, then why not?

I'm by nature much pickier than average, but also realize that it's OK not to be. VideoReDo is cheap and sounds great but I don't want use a PC for TV related stuff at all. I didn't intend my question as a challenge, but rather wanted to know as much about PC editing as possible without actually dealing with it. Thanks for your detailed replies!

[RonDawg]

VideoReDo sounds great, but I don't want to fill my PC's HDD with large video files and then deal with the unknown complications that all computer software seems to bring. I'm not computer oriented even though I know the basics.

Hard drive space is cheap. You can also store your rarely used video files on a removable drive. I've made a couple of these using old Series 1/2 TiVo drives and an external enclosure.

As far as computer complications, VideoReDo seems to get along well with my software and hardware configurations. It even got along well with my otherwise troublesome Windows Vista PC before I "downgraded" that to XP Pro, with which it still works well.

Good point! Don't pre-recorded anamorphic DVD's have identical limitations unless they offer a pan/scan version on the same disc? I use 16x9 TV/monitors and only record DVDs for personal use.

No because they include something called a widescreen flag. DVD players, and a few TV's, will pick up this signal and if the DVD player has been set up to output to a 4:3 TV, it knows to letterbox the picture. If you are using a widescreen set, it ignores the flag.

Anamorphic widescreen DVD's have been on the market long before widescreen TV's were in the US. Many titles are not available in the "pan and scan" or "full screen" version, only anamorphic widescreen.

Copy protection is a hassle which I've managed to defeat in all its various forms by using two products no longer available.

I realize these exist. But the problem is unless you hack your TiVo, it won't TTG/MRV any program with digital copy protection. That's why I still hang on to my DVD recorders, they are the only way I can archive such programming.

[RonDawg]

If you want to record Suggestions and record programs in hi-def as well as on a DVD recorder a simple workaround is to record the same program simultaneously on both of TiVo's hi-def tuners as well as the DVD recorder. When the recording is over one of the hi-def copies can immediately be deleted.

I'm not sure if any dual-tuner TiVo will even let you tune both tuners to the same channel. My experience is if you tune one tuner to a certain channel, then switch over to the other tuner that is already on a different channel, and try to tune the first channel again, the TiVo will simply switch tuners, not channels. At least that's the way my TiVoHD behaves, and I would expect the original Series 3 to behave the same way, I don't know about the S2DT.

[RonDawg]

Well, since we're talking about creating DVDs off a TiVo HD, I'd assume any networking would have to involve a computer somewhere along the line. Since I don't have a very good computer setup, how would I have a network?

I didn't jump all over him. He suggested something I'd said isn't an option. So if it's not an option, why suggest it?

Perhaps if you told us what you have, someone here might be able to tell you what you want to do for the least amount of cash.

You keep mentioning that your computer setup isn't very good. How about defining "not very good?" Is it because it has an old and slow processor? Is it because it lacks RAM or hard drive space? These things will cause issues with trying to run video editing software, but unless your system is REALLY old it has nothing to do with networking. As mentioned you don't even need a computer to network two TiVo's together, and you don't even need broadband to have a computer network, you just can't share a dialup internet connection that way.

Personally, I don't think it's possible for you to do what you want to do using just a standalone DVD recorder. As mentioned, it's impossible to predict which tuner will be outputting the signal to your DVD recorder without you being there to select it, unless you record the same channel on two different tuners which I already mentioned is impossible with the TiVoHD. And even if you record the high def version on one tuner and the SD version on the other, you still can't predict which will be output, and when using a DVD recorder you will get very different results with each channel.

[gastrof]

...Personally, I don't think it's possible for you to do what you want to do using just a standalone DVD recorder. As mentioned, it's impossible to predict which tuner will be outputting the signal to your DVD recorder without you being there to select it, unless you record the same channel on two different tuners which I already mentioned is impossible with the TiVoHD. And even if you record the high def version on one tuner and the SD version on the other, you still can't predict which will be output, and when using a DVD recorder you will get very different results with each channel.


This part really gets to the heart of the matter.

Not having a TiVo HD yet, I'm not up to speed on how it works, how you control which tuner is being displayed on any outputs, etc.

If I only use one tuner at a time, and I use the outputs to feed a second (standard def) recorder, there's still no way of knowing which tuner's activity is being fed through those outputs?

I guess I'd assumed the TiVo either has a control where you can lock in on one tuner or the other, or it automatically displays whichever tuner is the most recently active.

Are you telling me it doesn't work that way? That even if you're only using ONE of the tuners, you have no way of knowing if that tuner will be displayed on any output signals going into either a TV or, in this case, a second recorder?

You could have the machine set to record only one show, but unless you're right there, you don't know which tuner's output is gonna go into the other unit? You might feed out the non-recording tuner's activity?

[Turtleboy]

This part really gets to the heart of the matter.

Not having a TiVo HD yet, I'm not up to speed on how it works, how you control which tuner is being displayed on any outputs, etc.

If I only use one tuner at a time, and I use the outputs to feed a second (standard def) recorder, there's still no way of knowing which tuner's activity is being fed through those outputs?

I guess I'd assumed the TiVo either has a control where you can lock in on one tuner or the other, or it automatically displays whichever tuner is the most recently active.

Are you telling me it doesn't work that way? That even if you're only using ONE of the tuners, you have no way of knowing if that tuner will be displayed on any output signals going into either a TV or, in this case, a second recorder?

You could have the machine set to record only one show, but unless you're right there, you don't know which tuner's output is gonna go into the other unit? You might feed out the non-recording tuner's activity?

Yep.

[fallingwater]

Hard drive space is cheap. You can also store your rarely used video files on a removable drive. I've made a couple of these using old Series 1/2 TiVo drives and an external enclosure.

Hard drive space IS cheap. I've got more than I need as long as I don't clutter it up with video files.

As far as storage goes, there is no amount which is too great. I can add recordings far faster than I watch them. Therefore I don't keep adding more and more storage to whatever a recorder comes with.

Echostar's scheme to use multiple outboard hard drives for additional storage is the only method that makes sense to me but I don't subscribe to their service. If their new OTA DVR offers something like that I'll check it out.

As far as computer complications, VideoReDo seems to get along well with my software and hardware configurations. It even got along well with my otherwise troublesome Windows Vista PC before I "downgraded" that to XP Pro, with which it still works well.

I foolishly bought Vista Home Premium before checking its memory requirements. It's brand new, never used, in the box. Anybody want it for $50 including shipping?

Anamorphic pre-recorded DVD's...include something called a widescreen flag. DVD players, and a few TV's, will pick up this signal and if the DVD player has been set up to output to a 4:3 TV, it knows to letterbox the picture. If you are using a widescreen set, it ignores the flag.

Anamorphic widescreen DVD's have been on the market long before widescreen TV's were in the US. Many titles are not available in the "pan and scan" or "full screen" version, only anamorphic widescreen.

Thanks for clarifying that. You've focused on an essential feature of VideoReDo that outboard component DVD recorders don't offer.

I'll reconsider replacing Comcast's $6.50 hi-def STB with a no commitment $13.95 monthly DVR. I actually prefer Comcast's GUI and EPG to TiVo's and, as discussed here, don't use and have no interest in any of TiVo's extra 'more than DVR' features.

I currently have two S3's and an HD TiVo with Lifetime Service but only one S3 uses CableCARDS. Perhaps I should sell the Lifetimed HD for $500, or whatever best offer I receive?

I realize (copy guard eliminators) exist. But the problem is unless you hack your TiVo, it won't TTG/MRV any program with digital copy protection. That's why I still hang on to my DVD recorders, they are the only way I can archive such programming.

I use both Toshiba TiVo and LG MS based DVD recorders in conjuction with S3/HD TiVos to record programs as they air with no extra steps required to effortlessly make DVD's. Toshiba is easiest to use but LG's recorder is more flexible. I only use DVD recorders with editing features for copying pre-recorded DVDs or when a program needs to be transferred after it has already been recorded.

[fallingwater]

Not having a TiVo HD yet, I'm not up to speed on how it works, how you control which tuner is being displayed on any outputs, etc.

How'd you like mine, which has Lifetime Service, for $500?

If I only use one tuner at a time, and I use the outputs to feed a second (standard def) recorder, there's still no way of knowing which tuner's activity is being fed through those outputs?

I guess I'd assumed the TiVo either has a control where you can lock in on one tuner or the other, or it automatically displays whichever tuner is the most recently active.

Are you telling me it doesn't work that way? That even if you're only using ONE of the tuners, you have no way of knowing if that tuner will be displayed on any output signals going into either a TV or, in this case, a second recorder?

You could have the machine set to record only one show, but unless you're right there, you don't know which tuner's output is gonna go into the other unit? You might feed out the non-recording tuner's activity?

If you don't record Suggestions a dual tuner TiVo will output whatever channel it's been tuned to. If you want to record a program simultaneously on a dual tuner TiVo and a DVD recorder, use the workaround of recording the program on both dual tuners and then delete one of them.

[fallingwater]

I'm not sure if any dual-tuner TiVo will even let you tune both tuners to the same channel. My experience is if you tune one tuner to a certain channel, then switch over to the other tuner that is already on a different channel, and try to tune the first channel again, the TiVo will simply switch tuners, not channels. At least that's the way my TiVoHD behaves, and I would expect the original Series 3 to behave the same way, I don't know about the S2DT.

It ain't exactly intuitive but there's a method of recording a program on a dual-tuner TiVo so that it both records and displays the program. I'll have to fiddle with the HDTiVo to duplicate what I stumbled into inadvertantly. Perhaps I'll have to record something stupid on another channel at the same time instead of the same program and then delete that?

The important thing is to have the dual tuner TiVo display the channel you want to record on the DVD recorder and start the stupid recording at either the exact same minute or a minute before.

[fallingwater]

It ain't exactly intuitive but there's a method of recording a program on a dual-tuner TiVo so that it both records and displays the program.

Just for the record, until I verify the claim of getting dual tuner TiVos to display a particular channel being recorded, which will most likely take a few days, I'll withdraw it. RonDawg appears to be knowledgable and until I can prove his assertion wrong I'll let it be.

I routinely record programs on a DVD recorder supplied from an S3/HD TiVo with Suggestions disabled. The first time I attempted to record to a DVD recorder I mistakenly recorded the program on S3 TiVo simultaneously, resulting in the wrong program being recorded on the DVD recorder.

[mattack]

My past experience with my Series 1s and DVDs has included having to replay each show in real time while recording to the disc. Quality has never been a problem. I know there's got to be a loss due to the analog cables feeding the signal (it's obviously not a digital transfer) but you sure can't complain about the results.

It's the time involved that bugs me. Playing the whole thing back in real time? Worse if you want to make a second copy? And needing to be there to stop the recorder at just the right moment if you're putting more than one recording on each disc?

That's exactly why getting a DVD recorder *with a hard drive* is preferable.

Then you can dub off the shows "in real time" to the hard drive of the external recorder... and do any editing (remove extra slop recorded at the beginning and end of the show, remove commercials), then dub to DVD.

I have been using a Toshiba XS32 for years to do this. Admittedly, now that I *do* have Tivos that can do computer networking, I have thought more about doing it on the computer.. (but unfortunately there is NO WAY to edit recordings on a Mac that I have found.. without transcoding everything, which can take longer than just dubbing realtime!)

Specifically, when you record to the hard drive, then you can dub it off to DVD as many times as you want.

check out avsforum.com's DVD recorder section

[gastrof]

...getting a DVD recorder *with a hard drive* is preferable.

Then you can dub off the shows "in real time" to the hard drive of the external recorder... and do any editing (remove extra slop recorded at the beginning and end of the show, remove commercials), then dub to DVD...

As mentioned earlier in the thread, possibly in the first post, I do have a HardDrive/DVD recorder.

As also explained, I'm trying to find out the pluses and minuses of having it record at the same time a TiVo HD is recording; the other machine would be using the TiVo HD as its signal source.

Doing what you suggest is sort of what I was aiming for, but I need to know the ins and outs of recording off a TiVo HD as a source LIVE. (I'm trying to avoid any "second run" of the show in order to get it onto the other machine. I want the other machine to get it from the TiVoHD WHILE the TiVo is recording.)

Seems it's not as easy or cut and dried as I'd thought. Apparently with there being two tuners, there's no way to make sure the recording tuner is what's being fed into an external device?

I don't understand that. What DOES determine which tuner is being displayed by the outputs?

[fallingwater]

Just for the record, until I verify the claim of getting dual tuner TiVos to display a particular channel being recorded, which will most likely take a few days, I'll withdraw it. RonDawg appears to be knowledgable and until I can prove his assertion wrong I'll let it be.

Results are just in using HDTiVo!

Recording the same channel on both tuners isn't possible when attempting to initiate two simultaneous recordings from the EPG.

However, it's easy to record the same channel on both tuners when one recording is initiated from the EPG and a second is set up as a manual recording. Setting up two simultaneous manual recordings also works. The channel number initially displayed for recording manually is the channel currently playing.

[mattack]

Doing what you suggest is sort of what I was aiming for, but I need to know the ins and outs of recording off a TiVo HD as a source LIVE. (I'm trying to avoid any "second run" of the show in order to get it onto the other machine. I want the other machine to get it from the TiVoHD WHILE the TiVo is recording.)

He sent me this as a PM too and I responded there too.. but for others..

I think doing this as a 'two step' process actually makes more sense, since you can do it unattended, and don't have to try to predict which tuner the Tivo will be on (I'm not sure that's even possible, even if you turn off suggestions -- in fact, I thought it would try to use the OTHER tuner if you only have 1 item selected to record in a timeslot).

I also mentioned to him that he won't be gaining any quality in trying to get it from the Tivo 'live' as opposed to recorded, since everything goes to the hard drive first.

Basically - I still think that if he doesn't want to deal with transfers to a computer, recording to the Tivo then to a hard drive/DVD recorder is best.

[RonDawg]

I think doing this as a 'two step' process actually makes more sense, since you can do it unattended, and don't have to try to predict which tuner the Tivo will be on (I'm not sure that's even possible, even if you turn off suggestions -- in fact, I thought it would try to use the OTHER tuner if you only have 1 item selected to record in a timeslot).

I also mentioned to him that he won't be gaining any quality in trying to get it from the Tivo 'live' as opposed to recorded, since everything goes to the hard drive first.

Basically - I still think that if he doesn't want to deal with transfers to a computer, recording to the Tivo then to a hard drive/DVD recorder is best.

I agree, having to set up a manual recording just so both tuners will record the same program simultaneously is not worth the trouble of having a "guaranteed output", and simply wastes one of the tuners.

It's really not all that inconvenient to record to a DVD recorder or VCR after the original TiVo recording was made. Just do so when you don't plan on watching TV, say before going to work, or before going to sleep, or before doing other stuff that will keep you away from the TV.

[fallingwater]

...he won't be gaining any quality in trying to get it from the Tivo 'live' as opposed to recorded, since everything goes to the hard drive first.

Basically - I still think that if he doesn't want to deal with transfers to a computer, recording to the Tivo then to a hard drive/DVD recorder is best.

But why bother to record to a hi-def TiVo if the object is to make a DVD of a program?

[RonDawg]

But why bother to record to a hi-def TiVo if the object is to make a DVD of a program?

Because gastrof said the ability to tune digital channels is more important. Some new DVD recorders have built-in digital OTA and clear QAM tuners, but none have CableCard slots AFAIK.

[fallingwater]

That's true!

Gastrof's HDD DVD recorder must be able to record in realtime whatever the hi-def TiVo outputs. If manual recordings from a line input are required so be it.

Seems though that if manual (or EPG) recording from a line input is possible it wouldn't matter when the hi-def TiVo originally received the program. If gastrof's DVD recorder can be programmed to record from TiVo's line output, a 'live' program works the same as a recorded program and does it in realtime!

[gastrof]

But I'd then have to set things up later to replay the show off the TiVo and record it to the HardDrive/DVD machine, and that'd take real time.

There'd still have to be a second run of the show (in my home) before the DVD machine would have it.

That takes time I'm trying to avoid spending. Even doing it just before going to bed is still time I'd prefer not having to spend. (I got a little burned back when using a DVD recorder without hard drive and needing to re-record everything from the TiVo in real time. Also, I record and save several shows each week, so to have to double-up on the playings of each show is very "lumpy".)

As for why I'd be using a TiVo HD to record, if the aim is to produce a disc, the answer is simple. Digital is the way things will be soon. The ONLY way. I'll need equipment that can get the digital channels. I don't care about high def. I just want to get the channels. I can't help it if the recording is in high def. It'll be the only source from which I can make a disc.

Hey, if they make a HardDrive/Blu-Ray recorder, that'll be attention getting...

But they don't do that, and from what I heard, most likely won't.

As a result, digital tuner (of some sort) and DVD recorder it is.

[mattack]

Because gastrof said the ability to tune digital channels is more important. Some new DVD recorders have built-in digital OTA and clear QAM tuners, but none have CableCard slots AFAIK.

Plus just having the Tivo UI goodness is worth it in many cases too.

There are a couple of things I record natively to my non-Tivo recorder (nightly news, the WWTBAM daily show, World News Now), but most things, even if I intend to get them on the recorder eventually, I record on my Tivo and then dub to the XS32...

Another new issue -- since the TivoHD & Series3 can do captions, I purposely leave captions ON for things I'm not recording 'for keeps' to the XS32.. then I can do the "watch at 1.5x with sound" trick and still have the captions there as a backup.. so I have to rewind fewer times.

Yes, sounds like a lot of work, but IMHO it's not really.

[fallingwater]

HDTiVo along with Toshiba's TiVo DVD recorder with TiVo Basic is probably the easist combination to use when making TiVo based DVDs. TiVo Basic displays the same EPG as all TiVo's (but for only two days forward w/o search capabilities) and only allows one active source input. Guided Setup is for a hi-def Cable STB but Toshiba's line input is really supplied from HDTiVo's line out with no IR emitter required. Recordings can be initiated from Toshiba's EPG so resulting DVD's display TiVo's Now Playing info on their Main Menu.

Choose between recording the same program on HDTiVo (on both tuners, with 1 min. padding at the beginning and end, or, as I do) just leave HDTiVo on the correct channel before a Toshiba recording begins. (Since I don't record much on HDTiVo, that's easiest for me.) Use HDTiVo to search for programs to be recorded on Toshiba.

Leaving captions on for FF info from noncritical recordings is a clever idea. My 'fancy' DVD recorder with playlist editing actually plays normally pitched but speeded up audio from its slowest (1.3 x realtime) FF setting. Wouldn't THAT be a nice trick for TiVo to add to its 'more than a DVR' bag?

[fallingwater]

I have a slow and cheap powerline carrier based home network which doesn't support realtime video but otherwise works well for my largely text based needs. MRV transfering between TiVos takes approx. 1.5 x realtime and often fails completely.

One of the (non-TiVo) DVR's which shared a switch connection with an S3 TiVo and a ReplayTV for EPG downloads on the powerline system failed recently. After removing it I attempted an MRV transfer with an S3 in the other room. For whatever reason the transfer worked perfectly!

I then added a Toshiba TiVo and a laptop PC to the switch connection and attempted another MRV transfer. Again MRV worked perfectly without stalling out, and has repeatedly done so since. The laptop also connects uneventfully without bogging down.

Could the DVR which failed have been a hidden cause of the powerline connection stalling out? Before it failed it connected uneventfully.