Just what I wanted... an advertising box!

[TiVoEvan74]

This is certainly NOT the philosophy or approach I bargained for when we bought our Tivos!

Thomas S. Rogers, chief executive of TiVo in the New York Times:

“Our goal now is to work with the media industry to come up with ways to resist the downward pressure of less advertising viewing and create a way for advertising on TV to become more effective, more engaging and closer to the sale.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/technology/22tivo.html?_r=1&ref=technology&oref=slogin

How did he know that I've always longed for...

"the chance to buy products and have them delivered will be presented to viewers during commercials and even alongside product placements during live shows." :)

Alas, poor Tivo, I knew you when.


The anticipated Apple DVR is looking good just about now!

[rainwater]

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=400046

[jkalnin]

Sounds like a cool feature to me. Let's see how it is implemented before we complain...
no wait, let's just complain first regardless of the lack of information on how it will work.

[Ed_Hunt]

The other part of this is the ads are so unobtrusive that it doesn't make any sense to complain about them. If you see something that interests you then click on it, if not then just pass it by. If this small annoyance helps to keep the cost of the box and\or service down then I'm all for it.

[classicsat]

I don't care quite frankly. I got TiVo to record TV for me, so I could watch TV at my leisure, which tends not to match the TV schedule, without having to deal with those other things, or a PC based DVR, which would have cost more to build and power. If it comes with additional advertising, so be it.

[ZeoTiVo]

Sounds like a cool feature to me. Let's see how it is implemented before we complain...
no wait, let's just complain first regardless of the lack of information on how it will work.

or complain in multiple threads both before and after any facts are known oh and just for grins, regrdless of any known facts. :D

[MickeS]

The anticipated Apple DVR is looking good just about now!

Because we know Apple is NOT about the advertising or marketing.

[dylanemcgregor]

From the other thread, just in case someone only reads one.

Let me be clear:

We have NO intention to interrupt shows with product purchase.

[GoHokies!]

From the other thread, just in case someone only reads one.

emphasis from TivoStephen - he wanted to be abundantly clear.

[JohnBrowning]

Sounds like no big deal, but, it does give some folks something new to complain about!!

[rainwater]

emphasis from TivoStephen - he wanted to be abundantly clear.

Although I don't think he was. I mean does what does "interrupt" mean in this context? That they won't stop playing content but will only overlay ads? I mean, the statement isn't clear to me at all. If TiVo wanted to be clear, they would of made it clear to begin with and not from a quote from a TiVo employee in the forums.

[CuriousMark]

Although I don't think he was. I mean does what does "interrupt" mean in this context? That they won't stop playing content but will only overlay ads? I mean, the statement isn't clear to me at all. If TiVo wanted to be clear, they would of made it clear to begin with and not from a quote from a TiVo employee in the forums.

TiVo calls the ad line in the delete dialog a "program placement". I can see how that could easily be misinterpreted into product placement and overlay ads by reporters on a deadline.

[mikeyts]

Although I don't think he was. I mean does what does "interrupt" mean in this context? That they won't stop playing content but will only overlay ads? I mean, the statement isn't clear to me at all. If TiVo wanted to be clear, they would of made it clear to begin with and not from a quote from a TiVo employee in the forums.If you follow the link back to his post, you'll see that he went into detail in his next post:With that out of the way, here's what you'll see with the new feature launching today.

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.) More shows will come in the future.
* In the future, we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* In the future, we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

The second and third items you'll see next week, and if they're well received we'll evaluating continuing with them.So, it's not an interruption, just another ad line on the end-of-program dialog and some new Showcases with links for purchases. The current ads on the end-of-program dialog don't bother me and I never look at Showcases, so I could care less what they do there.

[pomerlp]

We already have a thread on this with 6 pages on it! Why in the world is this one still going? Hello, is there anybody paying attention?

[RoyK]

Although I don't think he was. I mean does what does "interrupt" mean in this context? That they won't stop playing content but will only overlay ads? I mean, the statement isn't clear to me at all. If TiVo wanted to be clear, they would of made it clear to begin with and not from a quote from a TiVo employee in the forums.

I asked Steven point blank several times in the other thread to answer yes or no whether any sort of icon, prompt, or sound would be displayed over programming. He replied 3 times but refused to use the words "yes" or "no".

Your interpretation of the answers is up to you.

[mikeyts]

We already have a thread on this with 6 pages on it! Why in the world is this one still going? Hello, is there anybody paying attention?Yo, mister-registered-three-months-ago, who died and elected you moderator? There are probably 5 threads on switched digital video and the tuning adapter and other topics have generated multiple threads. Some of them take different directions, more interesting to some posters than others--it happens all the time. This one hasn't gone on for very long and if no one posts any uniquely interesting points in it, it will die a natural death of apathy.

[ZeoTiVo]

Yo, mister-registered-three-months-ago, who died and elected you moderator? There are probably 5 threads on switched digital video and the tuning adapter and other topics have generated multiple threads. Some of them take different directions, more interesting to some posters than others--it happens all the time. This one hasn't gone on for very long and if no one posts any uniquely interesting points in it, it will die a natural death of apathy.

sadly though people are going through the same darn argument as the other thread - if they just went and read that thread they would get the answers.
heck now TiVoStephen i getting cross quoted here versus just using the other thread.

RoyK - you know very well TiVo stephen said there would be nothing added to the way ads are done. there are no ads on top of actual shows now so this will not add anything on top of the show.
You are the showing very trollish behavior by coming in this thread and starting it up all over again.

[mikeyts]

My point was merely that multiple threads on the same topic are generally harmless and either wander off into interesting side topics or peter out because everyone joins into the oldest thread. I also kind of resented some newcomer to these forums jumping in and rudely interjecting useless comments in huge text :rolleyes:.

[sooka]

Yo, mister-registered-three-months-ago, who died and elected you moderator? There are probably 5 threads on switched digital video and the tuning adapter and other topics have generated multiple threads. Some of them take different directions, more interesting to some posters than others--it happens all the time. This one hasn't gone on for very long and if no one posts any uniquely interesting points in it, it will die a natural death of apathy.

Don't even bother with this person. He has been banned from this forum several times by the moderators for his rude and sarcastic remarks and keeps coming back under a new user ID with a new isp. The moderators will soon tag him.

Are you listening HOOKBILL?

[JimSpence]

BTW, the advertising revenue that TiVo gets is probably keeping rates from going up.

How much would your local newspaper cost if it didn't have advertising?

Would you be able to pay for all of the TV shows that interest you if there was no advertsing?

[ZeoTiVo]

My point was merely that multiple threads on the same topic are generally harmless and either wander off into interesting side topics or peter out because everyone joins into the oldest thread. I also kind of resented some newcomer to these forums jumping in and rudely interjecting useless comments in huge text :rolleyes:.

I don't disagree with any of those points, generally... but not in this specific case. mainly because posters are just keeping the same baseless argument going.

[Fixer]

BTW, the advertising revenue that TiVo gets is probably keeping rates from going up.
Not counting the actual cost of this ad delivery device (aka TiVo DVR), the data needed to make the box function as originally intended (i.e. automatically record video on schedule) is as high as $13 a month (was $20 in 2007). That exact same info costs only $1.66 a month from Schedules Direct (http://www.schedulesdirect.org/) (used to be FREE). TiVo doesn't create it's own content, so why would rates need to go up?? Adding clunky GUIs to access already existing, third-party services isn't "new content". Cost of hardware + cost of "service" = TiVo getting more than enough from me.

How much would your local newspaper cost if it didn't have advertising?
LOL!! You folks are STILL using the lame newspaper analogy? The newspaper/magazine business model is far different than TiVo's. I know TiVo fans would like it to be the same, so they can justify TiVo's BS, but it isn't. Get over it. :rolleyes:

Would you be able to pay for all of the TV shows that interest you if there was no advertsing?Broadcast programming has always been free to the end user since the dawn of radio and television. Those that create the content for you to consume don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts. Advertising has always been necessary in this case. Again, another lame analogy from TiVo fans. :down:

RoyK - you know very well TiVo stephen said there would be nothing added to the way ads are done. there are no ads on top of actual shows now so this will not add anything on top of the show.
You are the showing very trollish behavior by coming in this thread and starting it up all over again.
I've been keeping an eye on that thread as well, and it seems TiVoStephen is carefully wording his responses and dancing around the issue. He has yet to offer a simple "yes or no" answer as RoyK has requested.

___

[Fixer]

I don't disagree with any of those points, generally... but not in this specific case. mainly because posters are just keeping the same baseless argument going.
Kettle, meet pot. :rolleyes:

___

[samo]

it seems TiVoStephen is carefully wording his responses and dancing around the issue. He has yet to offer a simple "yes or no" answer as RoyK has requested.
And the reason he did not offer the simple "yes" or "no" is because he is not the one who will be making final decision on how it will be implemented. We don't know and neither does he. Rogers wants to make TiVo an advertisement delivery box. Marketing geniuses at TiVo failed every attempt to sell TiVo as a user friendly enhanced programming delivery device, so now they are on a path to make it into Amazon affiliate type selling device. Amazon affiliates make between 3 to 8% depending on a product sold. I would assume that TiVo will make the similar cut on every sale. Time will tell if "thumbs up" or banners will be popping up during the recordings or life shows, but I would not exclude this possibility just because TiVoStephen implied that they wouldn't. With all my respect for him, he wouldn't be the one to make the call and he does not have an authority to disclose here what options TiVo is considering. The only official party line is one presented by Rogers and it is “Our goal now is to work with the media industry to come up with ways to resist the downward pressure of less advertising viewing and create a way for advertising on TV to become more effective, more engaging and closer to the sale.”
How TiVo will implement this goal is up to advertisers and media industry, not for us or TiVoStephen to decide.
Personally, I fully anticipate "that the chance to buy products and have them delivered will be presented to viewers during commercials and even alongside product placements DURING LIVE SHOWS" will be implemented in not so distant future.

[RoyK]

sadly though people are going through the same darn argument as the other thread - if they just went and read that thread they would get the answers.
heck now TiVoStephen i getting cross quoted here versus just using the other thread.

RoyK - you know very well TiVo stephen said there would be nothing added to the way ads are done. there are no ads on top of actual shows now so this will not add anything on top of the show.

I know very well how you interpreted Steven's answer. I suggested readers here look over there, read his answers, and draw their own conclusions.

You are the showing very trollish behavior by coming in this thread and starting it up all over again.

[GoHokies!]

My point was merely that multiple threads on the same topic are generally harmless and either wander off into interesting side topics or peter out because everyone joins into the oldest thread. I also kind of resented some newcomer to these forums jumping in and rudely interjecting useless comments in huge text :rolleyes:.
That newcomer has a better grasp on the rules that you do. Perhaps you should go review them. :rolleyes:
5. If you are about to post something new, please check to see if there is already a topic open on the subject.

[classicsat]

Not counting the actual cost of this ad delivery device (aka TiVo DVR), the data needed to make the box function as originally intended (i.e. automatically record video on schedule) is as high as $13 a month (was $20 in 2007).


That is the TiVo service fee, which is a lot more than guide data, at least for the Series 2/3 models.

That exact same info costs only $1.66 a month from Schedules Direct (http://www.schedulesdirect.org/) (used to be FREE).

TiVo always had to pay (Tribune directly), they never got guide data for free. Although there is no concrete evidence to support the claim, it is believed that TiVo spends around the $1.50/month/customer for guide data.

FWIW, What is Schedules Direct is a separate company set up to sell the formerly free Zap2It data, which was free to end users under certain terms which were abused or violated by some users, hence the free service was pulled.

[ZeoTiVo]

Kettle, meet pot. :rolleyes:

___

So I should let RoyK continue to assert things he does not know??

[mikeyts]

That newcomer has a better grasp on the rules that you do. Perhaps you should go review them. :rolleyes:You don't seem to have a very firm grasp of what a rule is :rolleyes:. What you quoted wasn't a rule--it was a suggestion or guideline at best. A "rule" would have been been something like, "Do not open a second thread on an existing topic", and would be enforced by the moderators. Thus far, I've never seen a "duplicate" thread get locked. As I said before, there are four or five different threads here on switched digital video and the Tuning Adapter--two or three of them have gone off into different, interesting directions and others have died out after a few posts. There's just no reason to shut one down.

In any case, it was offensive to have a non-moderator come into this thread and "loudly" object to people posting here. A polite invitation to join the older thread is fine (which had already been done, in the second post, by rainwater); if people continue the conversation it's their business.

[GoHokies!]

You don't seem to have a very firm grasp of what a rule is :rolleyes:. What you quoted wasn't a rule--it was a suggestion or guideline at best. A "rule" would have been been something like, "Do not open a second thread on an existing topic", and would be enforced by the moderators. It's clearly listed under "guidelines" - it seems you still haven't actually read them, yet want to lecture me on the contents of them and insult my intelligence in the process. Awesome. :rolleyes:

Thus far, I've never seen a "duplicate" thread get locked. Then you're not paying attention, I've seen it plenty.

In any case, it was offensive to have a non-moderator come into this thread and "loudly" object to people posting here.To you. Some of us care a little more about following the rules and guidelines, I guess.

[Langree]

In any case, it was offensive to have a non-moderator come into this thread and "loudly" object to people posting here. A polite invitation to join the older thread is fine (which had already been done, in the second post, by rainwater); if people continue the conversation it's their business.

Offensive? Really?

Can't just ignore it? It wasn't the first and won't be the last.

[rainwater]

I asked Steven point blank several times in the other thread to answer yes or no whether any sort of icon, prompt, or sound would be displayed over programming. He replied 3 times but refused to use the words "yes" or "no".

Your interpretation of the answers is up to you.

My point is TiVoStevphen shouldn't be answering these questions on a forum. The fact that this information is on major websites is all that matters. TiVo has done a terrible job of explaining the feature and have caused people to think twice before purchasing a TiVo. Very few of TiVo subscribers are reading this forum, so if they wanted to introduce a new feature, they did a terrible job.

[Langree]

TiVo has done a terrible job of explaining the feature and have caused people to think twice before purchasing a TiVo.

Love these blanket statements, you know this how?

[rainwater]

Love these blanket statements, you know this how?

When the NY Times runs articles saying TiVo is placing ads over live content, you think people are going to want to purchase a TiVo? TiVo has a hard time enough time explaining the point of DVRs. They have struggled with this since their inception. With information like this getting out, whether factual or not, is not good for TiVo.

[ZeoTiVo]

When the NY Times runs articles saying TiVo is placing ads over live content,

I am trying to let this thread go by - but the article never specifically said "placing ads over live content". The whole problem is indeed that everything was poorly worded and not at all clear. We can neither say 'ads will go over live TV or ads will not go over live TV" based on that article.

So the New York Times did NOT say "ads over live content" If you want to 'quote' the article you should get the actual words it used as that is a main point in this topic.

[Langree]

When the NY Times runs articles saying TiVo is placing ads over live content, you think people are going to want to purchase a TiVo? TiVo has a hard time enough time explaining the point of DVRs. They have struggled with this since their inception. With information like this getting out, whether factual or not, is not good for TiVo.

Still doesn't make it true just because you assume it is, it's not a valid statement.

You're just using such statements to try and bolster your argument, even though you really don't know what you are arguing against, because you haven't seen it.

Way to tilt at windmills.

[rainwater]

I am trying to let this thread go by - but the article never specifically said "placing ads over live content". The whole problem is indeed that everything was poorly worded and not at all clear. We can neither say 'ads will go over live TV or ads will not go over live TV" based on that article.

So the New York Times did NOT say "ads over live content" If you want to 'quote' the article you should get the actual words it used as that is a main point in this topic.

In the months ahead, TiVo plans to begin offering this feature to advertisers and programmers, so that the chance to buy products and have them delivered will be presented to viewers during commercials and even alongside product placements during live shows.

Yes, it may be poorly worded. But that is TiVo's fault for not explaining the feature.

[rainwater]

Still doesn't make it true just because you assume it is, it's not a valid statement.


Yes, it is called an opinion. My opinion is based on no more facts than yours is. However, if you think the publicity this is getting is good for TiVo, I would love to know your opinion on that.

[Langree]

Yes, it is called an opinion. My opinion is based on no more facts than yours is. However, if you think the publicity this is getting is good for TiVo, I would love to know your opinion on that.

Yours is an oppinion based on something you haven't seen yet, but your statements make it sound like the way you see it is the way it is.

I'm sure the publicity doesn't help.

But I'm not the one here complaining about something I haven't seen and pushing things because Stephen won't tell me "yes or no". You are. You are the one saying people are thinking twice about getting TiVo over this. You state it like you know it's true, not like it's just your oppinion. You use such statements to bolster your side of the discussion.

[mikeyts]

It's clearly listed under "guidelines" - it seems you still haven't actually read them, yet want to lecture me on the contents of them and insult my intelligence in the process. Awesome. :rolleyes:Clearly listed under "guidelines" and yet you quote it to me calling it a "rule" :rolleyes:. It's you who started this "lecture", jumping in to defend someone who rudely inserted a post trying to tell people what to do. And believe me, I have not insulted your intelligence yet--you started this by telling me that I apparently don't know the forum rules (a clear attempt to insult me) and you have a problem with me pointing out that what you quoted wasn't actually a rule???

Let's drop it, shall we? This is useless.

[ZeoTiVo]

Yes, it may be poorly worded. But that is TiVo's fault for not explaining the feature.

agreed, just reality checking speculation over how the feature works b4 the feature is seen. :)

[GoHokies!]

It's you who started this "lecture", jumping in to defend someone who rudely inserted a post trying to tell people what to do.Actually, you kicked off the lecturing by telling the poster to stop. And believe me, I have not insulted your intelligence yet--Oh my, is that a threat? I'm trembling in fear at your internet badassery!
you started this by telling me that I apparently don't know the forum rules (a clear attempt to insult me)It may be an insult, but its true, as opposed to you trying to imply that I'm too dumb to know the difference between a rule and a guideline.

and you have a problem with me pointing out that what you quoted wasn't actually a rule???Rule or guideline, they're still the wishes of the mods and we should respect that, not encourage people to violate them "because it's only a guideline".

Let's drop it, shall we? This is useless.Sure, as soon as you apologize. Can't stand being called on being wrong? Stop being wrong.

[mikeyts]

GoHokies!, that guideline has been ignored repeatedly over time without intervention by the moderators. Sometimes it's actually necessary--threads often wander so far off the central topic (without being completely off-topic) that it becomes impossible for anyone not interested in the related esoterica under discussion to wade through to find something on the main topic. (I'm not claiming that that's the case here).

In any case, no one here knows whether or not TiVoEvan74 considered the guideline before starting this thread (it's almost impossible to ignore, since, when you start a new thread, the forum software automatically searches for things related to your post and shows you a list of them, with links so you can check those threads out before posting).

Whatever. I posted in this thread and the immediate next post demanded to know why people are still posting here, when there was older thread about the same announcement with "6 pages on it". Pissed off at that crude attempt at amateur moderation (by a forum newbie, no less), I posted a response to dress the guy down a little. There is no justification for anyone to "loudly" complain about the existence of a duplicate thread, since it hurts no one. If you care, gently and politely pointing out that the older thread on the topic exists is the right thing to do--railing at the people posting in the thread is just rude and uncalled for. (If you disagree with that then we have vastly different views of proper forum etiquette). For some reason you felt it necessary to jump in to defend this guy's rudeness, insisting that it was justified by a guideline, implying that it was a rule; we strongly disagree.

You'll get an apology from me when I've done something wrong. I've actually read the forum rules post in it's entirety at some point (years ago, before my first post) and I take a look from time-to-time, when the title indicates that it's been updated, so your assertion that I was apparently unfamiliar with the rules after at least four years registered here was something that I found insulting. My pointing out to you that a guideline is not the same as a rule wasn't intended as an insult and your taking it as an insult has nothing to do with me. There's a reason why there's both a list of guidelines and a list of rules and if the moderators wanted to prohibit multiple threads on a topic I assume that they'd have included that in the rules. Note that the guideline doesn't even suggest that you not open a new post on an old topic, just that you take a look at what's already been posted on the topic before you do (particular if you're opening a new thread to pose a question, since it may already have been answered).

[DCIFRTHS]

... The anticipated Apple DVR is looking good just about now!

Any evidence besides hope that this will materialize? Serious question: No sarcasm intended.

[mikeyts]

Any evidence besides hope that this will materialize? Serious question: No sarcasm intended.A Google search reveals that Apple filed a patent application in March (see this (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/13/apple_tv_dvr_interface_revealed_in_patent_filings.html)), featuring a large set of diagrams of GUIs for tuning television and accessing stored recordings.

Not every patent filing materializes into a product, but these would indicate that Apple is doing R&D in the area.

[TiVoEvan74]

Wow, be away for a few days and all H$#%! breaks loose!

I posted separately because my focus was on the philosophy being espoused, not the specific incarnation or technique of direct sales, ads and their intrusiveness or lack thereof. The Tivo pres said

“Our goal now is to work with the media industry to come up with ways to resist the downward pressure of less advertising viewing and create a way for advertising on TV to become more effective, more engaging and closer to the sale.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/te...gy&oref=slogin

And spelled out that there would be

"the chance to buy products and have them delivered will be presented to viewers during commercials and even alongside product placements during live shows."

It is a shift from a personal TV/video recorder to an ad box. My concern about that fundamental shift in approach, though, was immediately lost! Oh well, I supposed I should have anticipated that! :)

For those of us with lifetime boxes, there is no cost, so the argument that ads are needed is moot. Still, is point of sale advertising and a philosophy to increase ad viewing the only way to keep costs down--or to save Tivo? I doubt it!

Of course Apple advertises its wares (and quite well "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC), but the advertising we're talking about here is inherent in the use of the device--and a philosophy to trying to get people to watch and click on the ads. Note: Apple's approach to TV shows is advertising free, hence an Apple DVR is unlikely to be based on advertising. Plus, if Apple had the stance espoused by the TiVo prez, there would be ads sprinkled throughout the OS, throughout its browser, even its word processor. Type the word printer and up would pop ads for printers. Mention a sailboat and there's be side ads to buy sails, boats, etc. They'd do that so that could provide you with their software for free. Wouldn't that be cool? :)

There was recently a brouhaha over pop up ads in Carbon Cloner, a donation ware backup program for the Mac. It is so unusual that it ticked off a bunch of people. But again, the issue is the general philosophy expressed that Tivo is in the business to trying to increase ad viewing and buying through product placements. That's what concerns me!

[ZeoTiVo]

simply put, Television is about advertising, the business model is to sell ad spots for as much as possible.

If TiVo wants to be a profitable part of recording TV then it has to figure out how to be a part of advertising -that is where the moeny stakeholders are interested in is. Bottom line.

Apple could obviously engineer a DVR and have it out already, why does it not? Because Jobs figured out how to sell the TV shows directly as the profit center. Now he does this by reselling shows that advertising already paid to produce, so there is a chink in that business plan.

TiVo is playing both sides - get a downloading service in place and hook it up to a show reseller and figure out how to deal with advertising on a box that can FFed the ads as they originally air.

This is the arena things have to work in. Anyone who thinks that any significant part of the population can record, then watch shows while skipping over the part that paid for the show is just ignoring the reality of the situation.