Tivo Jumps the Shark

[Chimpware]

Well its now official, Tivo has jumped the shark. With their latest useless feature:

Tivo Adds Amazon Purchases (http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/22/tivo-lets-users-buy-stuff-from-amazon-on-their-tv-all-three-qvc/)

Please, please Tivo keep adding more and more useless features while still putting out buggy core operations. Who needs a Tivo that does not pixelate, and does not freeze, when you can buy sh*t on Amazon?

Awwwwwwweeeeesssssome I say!

[zalusky]

Yea but maybe those things will pay for more programmers that will fix your problem.

[cwoody222]

No pixelation or freezing here.

[Chimpware]

No pixelation or freezing here.

Yeah you are right, never mind as long as it is OK for you. Threads on pixelation here that won't die, and a thread where Tivo reps have asked for people to provide troubleshooting data for the freezing issue are not indicative of anything, they just need to send you their new products and if it works for you, then it is good to go.

As a matter of fact that sounds just like the pre-release Beta program. Is this true CW? Are you to personally blame for all of this? Are you the Tivo Beta Tester? That lone individual that Tivo uses to Beta new software and features before GP release?

[MickeS]

As a matter of fact that sounds just like the pre-release Beta program. Is this true CW? Are you to personally blame for all of this? Are you the Tivo Beta Tester? That lone individual that Tivo uses to Beta new software and features before GP release?

OK, this cracked me up. :D
I have to admit that I too wonder how these beta programs work, when there are obvious, core function bugs that make it to the full release (see for example the problem with channels that come back after being deleted from the channel list). But that's derailing the thread...

by the way, there is already a longer thread started about this topic here: TiVo introducing “product purchase” feature with Amazon (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=400046)

[MichaelK]

the sky is falling
the sky is falling..

[Wheens]

Its Bush's fault!

[BankZ]

I think "Jumping the Shark" just jumped the shark!

[netringer]

Yea but maybe those things will pay for more programmers that will fix your problem.

...or more tech support to tell you your hard drive is failing.

[J4yDubs]

Its Bush's fault!

It's Clinton's fault!

John

[Bierboy]

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k137/Bierboy/chickenlittle.jpg

[aaronwt]

No pixelation or freezing here.
+7

[kosherbacon]

Well its now official, Tivo has jumped the shark. With their latest useless feature:

Tivo Adds Amazon Purchases (http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/22/tivo-lets-users-buy-stuff-from-amazon-on-their-tv-all-three-qvc/)


They are just trying to come up with more viable revenue streams so that they can survive as a business. I seriously doubt that adding Amazon will generate much revenue, but that's just me.

[yunlin12]

Tivo has jumped the shark.

Me thinks too many critics have jumped the gun on this. This may be useful for some users (I for 1). This may provide the needed revenue for Tivo to continue growing as a business, and put out better products. It seems that some people are treating Tivo like an evil CE giants like M$FT or Sony, or the big bad cable co like Comcast, I'm just not sure Tivo deserves that kind of vilification.

[MichaelK]

They are just trying to come up with more viable revenue streams so that they can survive as a business. I seriously doubt that adding Amazon will generate much revenue, but that's just me.

I agree amazon alone isn't going to make them rich.
But I dont think it's about the few bucks of adding amazon. I think it's more big picture- they hope that they could get many vendors online and create a new paradigm. Watching some english accented guy at 3am selling super shammy's- want to put for 3 easy payments of 9.99- just hit thumbs up 3 times. Would be great for anything that doesn't really have varying msrp's anyplace. See a commercial for iphone or bose wave radios- hit thumbs up 3 times to order. Doing it with amazon makes it look very legit right away. you can order a pizza from dominos or pizza hut on line- wouldn't it be more convenient to just do it on your tv and not even need to go to a computer? There's many choices of stuff that could sell easily on tv with a bit of thinking...

oh yeah though- i forgot "the sky is falling..."

[RoyK]

... a pizza from dominos or pizza hut on line- wouldn't it be more convenient to just do it on your tv and not even need to go to a computer? There's many choices of stuff that could sell easily on tv with a bit of thinking...

oh yeah though- i forgot "the sky is falling..."

Roger E. Hooptie
1489 Ellingsworth Drive
Tallahassee, FL 32306
(555) 555-9419

Punch that out with your remote control....

[MickeS]

Roger E. Hooptie
1489 Ellingsworth Drive
Tallahassee, FL 32306
(555) 555-9419

Punch that out with your remote control....

They could do it the same way it's done with Amazon, link it to your CC account.

[Langree]

They are doing what's been talked about for years.

You can now watch TV, rent movies, and make purchases from the comfort of your couch through a single unit.

There is no "shark jumping" (and I think CW doesn't understand it's meaning or useage).

Yeah you are right, never mind as long as it is OK for you. Threads on pixelation here that won't die, and a thread where Tivo reps have asked for people to provide troubleshooting data for the freezing issue are not indicative of anything, they just need to send you their new products and if it works for you, then it is good to go.


I can bet if you weren't seeing the problems you wouldn't say a peep about these sort of things.

[MichaelK]

Roger E. Hooptie
1489 Ellingsworth Drive
Tallahassee, FL 32306
(555) 555-9419

Punch that out with your remote control....


i beleive both just use your phone number.

so I'll type 555 555 9419

done

thanks


specifics aside

Theres no reason to be so negative.

Just because you or i might not ever use any of these new services doesn't mean others might not find them enjoyable.

it's like arguing the merits of a particular cable channel. For any given channel the majority of people think it's a waste- yet cable/dbs need to carry hundreds to be competitive.

Some people dont mind the ouji board test entry. If you read the engadget article about remotes they say they are trying to figure out better text entry methods for the future....

[Scyber]

I think "Jumping the Shark" just jumped the shark!

How about Tivo has "moved the island" then?

[ZeoTiVo]

How about Tivo has "moved the island" then?

they may well have.
Aside from QVC which involves a phone - name me anyone else who has brought a mega web merchant into the living room. Sure TiVo could focus solely on DVR and crush every single last bug out. How many more DVRs would that sell to people who are just fine with a cable company DVR anyhow.
I will grant that pixelation and freezes are certainly more than cosmetic or annoyance bugs, but guess what - by CWs admission - TiVo employees are actively hunting down the causes for those.

So TiVo needs to maintain a reliable, working DVR and for the majority of TiVo DVRs reliability is the case.

TiVo also need to keep its eyes forward and advertising and selling will be a big part of that. I recall when Amazon, ebay and other site were just getting going. Buying on the internet? Who would want to buy stuff on a PC versus being able to actually see it at the local store???

Such commerce made the Internet explode and soon every house with a modest income has a PC in it - and largely used for internet access. Soon advertising dollars were flowing from TV and print and onto the Internet. everything has its ups and downs but that flow of advertising dollars onto the internet is still happening.
TiVo has now presented a way to combine that internet sales volume and internet advertising approach back onto the TV and marry it to shows that if smart enough, can start getting a bigger piece of the pie again and maybe they can afford more than making yet another reality show.
Sure this first step will not make all the money rain down but it is a first step and you can not get to the end state without taking it.

So sorry again your DVRs are not working well CW, but frankly TiVo should not drop their business model simply to pour everything into 100% all DVRs work all the time. It would paradoxically put them out of business.

[JohnBrowning]

Well its now official, Tivo has jumped the shark. With their latest useless feature:

Tivo Adds Amazon Purchases (http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/22/tivo-lets-users-buy-stuff-from-amazon-on-their-tv-all-three-qvc/)

Please, please Tivo keep adding more and more useless features while still putting out buggy core operations. Who needs a Tivo that does not pixelate, and does not freeze, when you can buy sh*t on Amazon?

Awwwwwwweeeeesssssome I say!

How can it be useless? Even if you choose not to use it, I'd say it is useful to you because it helps TiVo make a buck and stay in business. That way you can continue to enjoy your TiVo!

[Chimpware]

So sorry again your DVRs are not working well CW, but frankly TiVo should not drop their business model simply to pour everything into 100% all DVRs work all the time. It would paradoxically put them out of business.

So to provide what everyone is already paying for would paradoxically put them out of business? Their business model was to provide DVR equipment and service. They have decided to expand their business model to include something I doubt anyone has much use for, but I also think there is little use for QVC and the like, so I make room for the fact that others may have a different opinion on this.

My main assertion is that if Tivo can't get the DVR piece right anymore, as is evidenced by the many posts relating to issues with the DVR functionality, piling more cr*p on top of an already admittedly buggy core system is a huge mistake and is part of a move that will end poorly for Tivo. The main reason many of us use Tivos is because the cable DVRs are cr*p. If they improve the core functionality of those cable DVRs, while Tivo adds Amazon, Youtube and more useless garbage let's see how that works out for them. It would be an entirely different story if they were adding functionality to an essentially stable product, but that is not the case.

I paid, and continue to pay monthly fees for a DVR that works properly, not so that I can never leave the couch again...

[Chimpware]

How can it be useless? Even if you choose not to use it, I'd say it is useful to you because it helps TiVo make a buck and stay in business. That way you can continue to enjoy your TiVo!

So by your definition, anything Tivo adds that allows them to increase revenues is good for you? LMAO:rolleyes:

[Langree]

Mine is stable and so are thousands upon thousands of others.

[Chimpware]

Mine is stable and so are thousands upon thousands of others.

And your basis for commenting that there are "thousands upon thousands of others"? Wait let me guess Tivo Fanyboy Market Report - June 2008.

[BankZ]

And your basis for commenting that there are "thousands upon thousands of others"? Wait let me guess Tivo Fanyboy Market Report - June 2008.

And you basis "Well its now official, Tivo has jumped the shark." on the Tivo Haters Club - May 2008.

[MickeS]

And your basis for commenting that there are "thousands upon thousands of others"? Wait let me guess Tivo Fanyboy Market Report - June 2008.

Probably the fact that there isn't that much complaining about it.

[Langree]

And your basis for commenting that there are "thousands upon thousands of others"? Wait let me guess Tivo Fanyboy Market Report - June 2008.

Not a fanboy, but you like to make the problem seem all encompassing, and it's not. In the grand scheme of things it's a minority of users that are drastically affected by the issues you are having. But if it makes you feel like you're making a difference by starting threads periodically to complain, knock yerself out.

[ZeoTiVo]

So to provide what everyone is already paying for would paradoxically put them out of business? to spend the kind of money needed to get 100% Total Quality would put them out of business, along with most any other manufacturer that tried for a true 100%.
My main assertion is that if Tivo can't get the DVR piece right anymore, as is evidenced by the many posts relating to issues with the DVR functionality,
and if all you have for proof is that a heavily trafficked web site has a lot of issue threads versus a lot of "hey just wanted to join the vast majority and post that everything is alright"
Then you have squat for proof of your main assertion.

answer me this --
Why out of 6 running TiVo DVRs bought from various places over many years time do I not have a buggy one yet?

[Chimpware]

answer me this --
Why out of 6 running TiVo DVRs bought from various places over many years time do I not have a buggy one yet?

Pure luck. I have owned Tivos since almost the beginning and have not had any real issues until the HD. The HD shipped with known issues regarding Cable Slot 2 (which is well documented), then moved on to pixelation problems for some, and now freezing issues.

I find it funny that some on these boards think it is out of the question to expect that people who pay for a DVR and DVR service and are not getting this should just roll with the punches, or that those posting with issues are an aberration.

"Hey mine works, so there are no issues with Tivo, their service or their products" - Please feel free to cut and paste the above as your sig.

[MickeS]

I find it funny that some on these boards think it is out of the question to expect that people who pay for a DVR and DVR service and are not getting this should just roll with the punches, or that those posting with issues are an aberration.

"Hey mine works, so there are no issues with Tivo, their service or their products" - Please feel free to cut and paste the above as your sig.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't complain. It just seems like this is an odd topic to relate to the issue with your TiVoHD.

[aaronwt]

Pure luck. I have owned Tivos since almost the beginning and have not had any real issues until the HD. The HD shipped with known issues regarding Cable Slot 2 (which is well documented), then moved on to pixelation problems for some, and now freezing issues.

I find it funny that some on these boards think it is out of the question to expect that people who pay for a DVR and DVR service and are not getting this should just roll with the punches, or that those posting with issues are an aberration.

"Hey mine works, so there are no issues with Tivo, their service or their products" - Please feel free to cut and paste the above as your sig.

Then I have pure luck too. My seven Series 3 and TiVoHD units are fine, my 3 HDTiVos I used with DirectV were fine. My six SD TiVos I used with DirecTV were fine, and the two Series 2 TiVos(They were one tuner units, whatever series that is) I used were fine.

[lrhorer]

to spend the kind of money needed to get 100% Total Quality would put them out of business, along with most any other manufacturer that tried for a true 100%.
Well, no matter how much money they spent, it still wouldn't be 100% bug free. For any even remotely complex system, there simply is no such thing a 100% reliability or code that is 100% free from errors. What's more, even if such a thing were possible, it would take far longer than any company could afford to get the product out the door. Then in three months or six months or whatever, the next upgrade release would undo the whole monstrous thing by introducing bugs into the previously pristine code.

answer me this --
Why out of 6 running TiVo DVRs bought from various places over many years time do I not have a buggy one yet?
The answer is that 6 units, or even 10 or 100, is not a statistically large enough sample to make credible assertions concerning the prevalence of a problem in the population as a whole. What's more, the fact all the TiVos are in one household represents a huge selection bias on an already insufficient sample. Of course, if chimpware has owned fewer than 6 TiVos, then his sample is even worse. In my particular case I've personally owned 4 TiVos and have three current models in service in my house. My S3 TiVos both had a pretty serious bug under 9.2, but it got fixed in short order - I suspect by Scientific Atlanta rather than TiVo. All three TiVos have an odd problem with TTCB, which hopefully TiVo will fix, or possibly has with 9.4. I have not seen any freezing problems on my S3s, but I have seen it (or perhaps have seen one of the freezing problems is more like it) on my TiVo HD. It's not bothersome to me, especially since I do not use the THD for viewing. Even if I did, however, temporarily clearing the issue is not difficult.

If you ask me, however, the main thing is not to overreact to bugs. Report them, yes. Let others know so they can also report them, surely. Have a major hissy fit over the existence of a bug? Well...

Perhaps more to the point is the fact few of these problems so far as I know were ubiquitous. I know for a fact the freezing issue is not. In the nature of things, a beta test program must be considerably limited, and if a problem only surfaces on 2% of the machines, and only intermittently, then missing it in a beta program is not unlikely.

[ZeoTiVo]

I find it funny that some on these boards think it is out of the question to expect that people who pay for a DVR and DVR service and are not getting this should just roll with the punches, or that those posting with issues are an aberration.

"Hey mine works, so there are no issues with Tivo, their service or their products" - Please feel free to cut and paste the above as your sig.

There is reporting your issues and dealing with TiVo over a product that does not meet your expectations and there is jumping on the next feature thread and bashing away becuase you did not have the luck of the draw.

Also you are saying -"Mine does not work and there are threads here by others with the same problem so all of that model TiVo DVR must have this issue"
that is just as wrong as saying "Mine works so there are no issues"

Also you point out that TiVo employees are in those threads and actively working the issues that some are having so this new feature does not seem to have dissuaded them from striving for a quality product for everyone.

So what other point did you have to make?

[ZeoTiVo]

Well, no matter how much money they spent, it still wouldn't be 100% bug free. so we agree on that
The answer is that 6 units, or even 10 or 100, is not a statistically large enough sample to make credible assertions concerning the prevalence of a problem in the population as a whole. What's more, the fact all the TiVos are in one household represents a huge selection bias on an already insufficient sample. I agree with what you say here but my question was actually the reverse of that. - If bugs are prevalent in the core of the TiVo DVR system then why did I get so lucky as to not get these prevalent core bugs, and instead just some minor bugs, in my various DVRs purchased over the years? Sure this does not mean it proves that all TiVo DVRs run bug free but it does belay CW's assertion that TiVo puts out an unreliable DVR.

Perhaps more to the point is the fact few of these problems so far as I know were ubiquitous. I know for a fact the freezing issue is not. In the nature of things, a beta test program must be considerably limited, and if a problem only surfaces on 2% of the machines, and only intermittently, then missing it in a beta program is not unlikely. also the fact that with the new models - the cable cards used, firmware in the cards and signal strength of the transmission are variable over geographic regions adds to the problem of getting a truly representative population to test with.

[Chimpware]

There is reporting your issues and dealing with TiVo over a product that does not meet your expectations and there is jumping on the next feature thread and bashing away becuase you did not have the luck of the draw.

Also you are saying -"Mine does not work and there are threads here by others with the same problem so all of that model TiVo DVR must have this issue"
that is just as wrong as saying "Mine works so there are no issues"

Also you point out that TiVo employees are in those threads and actively working the issues that some are having so this new feature does not seem to have dissuaded them from striving for a quality product for everyone.

So what other point did you have to make?

OK, seems like a simple point needs to be repeated numerous times to get past the fanboy blockage. Tivo resources are being spent working on worthless "new" features rather than stabilizing the core product. The End.

[Chimpware]

instead just some minor bugs

Wait, so now we go from "do I not have a buggy one yet?" to "minor bugs", so basically now you have admitted you have had issues with bugs, so it is now a matter of perspective. So we can agree that the Tivos have had bugs and the debate is really whether you feel they are intrusive into the experience or not.

[BankZ]

Wait, so now we go from "do I not have a buggy one yet?" to "minor bugs", so basically now you have admitted you have had issues with bugs, so it is now a matter of perspective. So we can agree that the Tivos have had bugs and the debate is really whether you feel they are intrusive into the experience or not.

You just jumped the shark!

[colin1497]

Well, no matter how much money they spent, it still wouldn't be 100% bug free. For any even remotely complex system, there simply is no such thing a 100% reliability or code that is 100% free from errors. What's more, even if such a thing were possible, it would take far longer than any company could afford to get the product out the door. Then in three months or six months or whatever, the next upgrade release would undo the whole monstrous thing by introducing bugs into the previously pristine code.


RTCA/DO-178B Level A or similar software code certification is about as close as it gets. This is the kind of code that operates things like fly-by-wire flight controls (i.e. software failure==airplane is lost). Believe me, as someone in the aviation industry who knows what it takes to meet these requirements, you don't want it in your Tivo.

[J4yDubs]

Tivo resources are being spent working on worthless "new" features rather than stabilizing the core product. The End.
Do you know this as fact? Is a company not able to work on "stabilizing the core product" and new features at the same time? I'd be concerned if they couldn't. You don't work in IT, do you. Or more specifically in a development department.

This negative rant is so misplaced is not even funny. The feature you are railing against is mainly being re-purposed from existing functionality. The team that did this work probably couldn't (experience and knowledge wise) work on the core functionality, even if they wanted to.

You seem to have some misplaced believe that just throwing more bodies and resources at a problem will some fix it more rapidly. That's not the way it works, and in reality more of the time is a detriment.

I thought this thread was a joke before, but now I know it is.

John

[BankZ]

someone needs to kill this thread and let the troll died.

[sinanju]

The team that did this work probably couldn't (experience and knowledge wise) work on the core functionality, even if they wanted to.

Without commenting on TiVo's priorities, specifically...only your argument.

Money spent hiring folk who could do the Amazon functionality could have been spent on folk who could work on core functionality. The people, possibly, could not have been retargeted, but the money could have.

And, yes, I do work in IT and I have been responsible for development teams -- specifically, responsible for developer/consultants working at the pleasure of the check-writer.

[J4yDubs]

Money spent hiring folk who could do the Amazon functionality could have been spent on folk who could work on core functionality. The people, possibly, could not have been retargeted, but the money could have.

Since you work in IT, you should understand that throwing more people at a problem doesn't necessarily accelerate the resolution. In a lot of ways it slows things down and waste time and money. 10 people working on a window won't complete the job faster than 2 people working on the window.

John

[sinanju]

[...] a problem [...]


Indeed, but we're not talking about one problem. We're talking about clearing a queue of bugs... or even just doing the leg work to reproduce them in a lab. With the evidence at hand, I find it hard to believe they have maximized the headcount servicing the queue.

[J4yDubs]

With the evidence at hand, I find it hard to believe they have maximized the headcount servicing the queue.
With the evidence at hand, we basically have very little to go on. We don't know how many people are working on problems. We don't know what experience levels those groups have. We don't know the tool chain being used and it's team flexibility. We don't know what kind of beta (external resources) efforts they are using. We don't know if the problems have been found are being fixed (or even in QA). We don't even know the extent of the problems (a lot of people are saying they don't have any problems).

To claim any kind of meaningful conclusion based on the evidence at hand is silly. TiVo, to date, has done a pretty good job addressing problems and correcting them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing and how to handle it. They certainly won't benefit from taking advice from uniformed armchair quarterbacks.

I'm done in this thread. It's lived to long.

John

[eisenb11]

This is kind of ridiculous.

I bought a Tivo to get a better TV experience. Keep in mind that we pay a premium for this. You have to buy the DVR then you have to buy the service too. It's cheaper to get the DVR from my cable co for $10 / month.

The last thing I want is Tivo coming up with all kinds of annoying popups in the middle of the program that I'm trying to watch.

What I'm envisioning is something like what we see during some commercials. When that banner pops up on the top of the screen telling you to thumbs up if you want to record that program.

Who the heck wants that annoying banner popping up in the middle of their favorite show?

You're watching a movie, it's dark, the killer is lurking around the corner, he's standing behind the heroine, slowly inching forward with his knife... inching forward... reaching towards her throat... inching... slowly... inching... - PRESS THUMBS UP TO BUY ACME KNIVES. 20% OFF ON AMAZON.COM WITH FREE SUPER SAVER SHIPPING!!!!

Um, no thank you. Tivo better provide a way to turn off this annoyance or there is going to be a major backlash from anyone but the most die-hard fanboy.

We've already got commercials before, between, and after our shows. The Tivo menus have advertisements. The darn thing downloads infomercials in the middle of the night. Popups are overlayed on top of commercials during the commercials. Come on, enough is enough.

[classicsat]

They have alread said they are not going to interrupt programs with "TiVo intrusions"

[mattack]

How about Tivo has "moved the island" then?

Oh oracle of Google answered that you must be referring to Lost.

[eisenb11]

They have alread said they are not going to interrupt programs with "TiVo intrusions"

Oh, well in that case, carry on...

:cool:

[lrhorer]

so we agree on that
Actually, I would say we pretty much agree all the way around on this issue. I was mostly expanding upon your statements, not disagreeing with them.

I agree with what you say here but my question was actually the reverse of that. - If bugs are prevalent in the core of the TiVo DVR system then why did I get so lucky as to not get these prevalent core bugs
Yes, that's the main point. The answer could be either that there are specific interactions with equipment to which you don't happen to have exposure, or that it is an effect of one or more problematic production runs from which your units did not come, or that you're just extremely lucky. By definition, the latter possibility is unlikely. The most likely answer is that TiVos are not terribly unreliable.

Sure this does not mean it proves that all TiVo DVRs run bug free but it does belay CW's assertion that TiVo puts out an unreliable DVR.
The bottom line is, he has no evidence of the assertion. His statistical sample is insignificantly small to darw such a comclusion.

[lrhorer]

Money spent hiring folk who could do the Amazon functionality could have been spent on folk who could work on core functionality.
Actually, I would say there's a good chance TiVo didn't hire anyone to implement this feature. It's not unlikely most of the development was on the Amazon.com side. I can't say authoritatively, but if I were TiVo, I would have based the protocols on the already existing SDKs for HME and HMO. In any case, the development needed to implement Amazon.com downloads on the TiVo side is trivial compared with significant upgrades to the TiVo core applications.

[Chimpware]

Actually, I would say there's a good chance TiVo didn't hire anyone to implement this feature. It's not unlikely most of the development was on the Amazon.com side. I can't say authoritatively, but if I were TiVo, I would have based the protocols on the already existing SDKs for HME and HMO. In any case, the development needed to implement Amazon.com downloads on the TiVo side is trivial compared with significant upgrades to the TiVo core applications.

As with many of your posts again you choose verbosity over factual content. Although I guess I could be wrong and you could have Tivo's source code and are referencing your detailed analysis of the implementation of new features compared to upgrades to core functionality.

Regarding your earlier comment that I have no factual basis for my earlier cmments, and my samples are statistically insignificant, it is a fact that the Tivo HD was released with a known bug relating to Slot 2, it is a fact that Tivo has posted on this forum to gain insight into issues relating to Tivo HD units locking up. These are not debatable opinions, but documented facts. Does this make the Tivo HD an unreliable system? Debatable.

The fact that Tivo spends any resources (and by resources I mean any monies that could be directed for the IT tards who do not understand business management) toward "new" features rather than stabilizing the platform is ridiculous at this stage.

Fanboys you better start praying to the Tivo Gods that Apple does not decide this is a good arena to add functionality to the rock solid Apple TV platform, else Tivo ends up the next Motorola.

Oh yeah, forgot to add, hey Series 3 boys, what happened to that platform? Seems to have made a mysterious disappearance.

[lrhorer]

RTCA/DO-178B Level A or similar software code certification is about as close as it gets. This is the kind of code that operates things like fly-by-wire flight controls (i.e. software failure==airplane is lost). Believe me, as someone in the aviation industry who knows what it takes to meet these requirements, you don't want it in your Tivo.
Exactly. On the hardware side one could point to the millions NASA often spends on triple-redundancy for their spacecraft. 'Doesn't completely stop them from blowing up on the launch pad or heading off into deep space.

We sometimes deliver completely protected / diverse telecommunications solutions for customers if they are willing to pay for it. I cringe every time a request for one of these comes in for bid, because I know exactly what's going to happen. My colleagues and I will spend between three and six whole days (more than 100 man-hours - although we are all salaried, not wage earners) to engineer the solution and deliver the quote back to the customer. They seem to expect a price of a few hundred dollars a month to cover maybe $50,000 or so in total capital outlay. When it comes back at $25,000 a month for a minimum contract of 3 years or a capital outlay of $500,000, they go staggering off in shock, and we're left having wasted a huge amount of time. The last one of these was a real doozey. Their ridiculous requirements went back to them with a quote of $6 million. Revenue to cover that capital outlay would haqve to come in at over $4 million a year on a 3 year contract.

[Chimpware]

Exactly. On the hardware side one could point to the millions NASA often spends on triple-redundancy for their spacecraft. 'Doesn't completely stop them from blowing up on the launch pad or heading off into deep space.

We often deliver protected / diverse telecommunications solutions for customers if they are willing to pay for it. I cringe every time a request for one of these comes in for bid, because I know exactly what's going to happen. My colleagues and I will spend between three and six whole days (more than 100 man-hours - although we are all salaried, not wage earners) to engineer the solution and deliver the quote back to the customer. They seem to expect a price of a few hundred dollars a month to cover maybe $50,000 or so in total capital outlay. When it comes back at $25,000 a month for a minimum contract of 3 years or a capital outlay of $500,000, they go staggering off in shock, and we're left having wasted a huge amount of time.

Yeah, making the 1 standard new product you offer the market, that is essentially just a Linux box with OTS hardware, work properly is exactly analogous to your example. LMAO.

[MichaelK]

As with many of your posts again you choose verbosity over factual content. Although I guess I could be wrong and you could have Tivo's source code and are referencing your detailed analysis of the implementation of new features compared to upgrades to core functionality.

Regarding your earlier comment that I have no factual basis for my earlier cmments, and my samples are statistically insignificant, it is a fact that the Tivo HD was released with a known bug relating to Slot 2, it is a fact that Tivo has posted on this forum to gain insight into issues relating to Tivo HD units locking up. These are not debatable opinions, but documented facts. Does this make the Tivo HD an unreliable system? Debatable.

The fact that Tivo spends any resources (and by resources I mean any monies that could be directed for the IT tards who do not understand business management) toward "new" features rather than stabilizing the platform is ridiculous at this stage.

Fanboys you better start praying to the Tivo Gods that Apple does not decide this is a good arena to add functionality to the rock solid Apple TV platform, else Tivo ends up the next Motorola.

Oh yeah, forgot to add, hey Series 3 boys, what happened to that platform? Seems to have made a mysterious disappearance.



what happened to the series 3 platform? You are using it- it's called a tivo HD now.

while the series 1 was basically all the same hardware with a few different cases and different hard drives on the racks. The series 2 platform had several versions of motherboards and hardware over the years. Now the series 3 platform has two versions it it's stable- S3 and THD.

it's why they call it a 'platform' I guess.

time will tell if they can cram true2way into the S3 platform or if they will be forced to make an S4 platform. (I suspect they will have to create the S4 for that as the S3's much like the S2's and S1's before have had "just enough" oompph to get the job done- seems the platform for OCAP/true2way has to be much more robust...)

[MichaelK]

ps-

over the YEARS - many like you have posted that tivo 'jumped the shark' in that they added new 'useless' features while they 'neglected the core functionality'. And that tivo better watch out because company x might get their act together before tivo does.

I guess time will tell if you you proclamation is finally the one that is true or if it's just another in the long line of shark jumpers.

There's clearly a balance they have to make - tweaking dvr functionality or adding new features- one or the other way wouldn't be best. I'm sure some rational people could argue they should move their balance point one way or the other, but they can't very well ignore either. They need the new features to compete. They need to be very reliable and easy to use to compete.

[Austin Bike]

I like pie.

[lrhorer]

Yeah, making the 1 standard new product you offer the market, that is essentially just a Linux box with OTS hardware, work properly is exactly analogous to your example. LMAO.
You missed the point entirely. Delivering an unprotected platform costs a small fraction of what delivering protected services costs. Fault tolerant systems cost much more than fault intolerant ones. Stamping out every conceivable bug in a system costs vastly more than simply producing one that is mostly free of major service impacting bugs.

[lrhorer]

I double-checked with one of the major 3rd party HME developers out there. Indeed, the protocols used by Amazon Unbox were existing well before Amazon Unbox service was delivered. TiVo spent almost nothing whatsoever on delivering the service, other than a trivial menu entry. It's possible implementing the service on the TiVo software side took less than a day, possibly even less than an hour. It's virtually certain the business negotiations and development on the TiVo website took much more in the way of resources than implementing the service on the TiVo.

What the hell is "jumping the shark" anyway?

[lrhorer]

As with many of your posts again you choose verbosity over factual content.
How does an ad hominem attack on me support your position? (Hint: it doesn't.)

Although I guess I could be wrong and you could have Tivo's source code and are referencing your detailed analysis of the implementation of new features compared to upgrades to core functionality.
I have the source code for the OS (although not 9.4, yet) and I also have looked at the HMO and HME SDKs, and am somewhat familiar with how HMO and HME work at the programming level. Amazon Unbox relies on the HME SDK, released quite a while ago. I don't have to have access to the application source code to know what it takes to implement applications based on the SDKs.

I confirmed this a short time ago, but it only makes sense. Why re-invent the wheel, when the ability to deliver the service already existed and was in use by programs such as TiVo Deskto, pyTivo, and Galleon? Amazon Unbox was a trivial addition. In my opinion, it's also a trivial service, at least until prices come sdown and the video quality goes way up, but it cost TiVo almost nothing to implement.

Regarding your earlier comment that I have no factual basis for my earlier cmments,
I never said you have no factual basis for your comments. I said you have no evidence to support them. Evidence requires a statistically significant number of data points and an analysis of the number of representative events in relation to the total number of events. You have provided no evidence that any of the problems exist in any large numbers compared to the total subscriber base, yet you seek to classify the units as poor in quality when you have no numbers to back up your assertions.

and my samples are statistically insignificant, it is a fact that the Tivo HD was released with a known bug relating to Slot 2
If I recall, that related only to Scientific Atlanta CableCards, in which case one could argue the flaw was on the part of the SA cards, not the TiVo. In any case, the fact some people had issues with the TiVo is not the point. The question is, "How many, in relation to the total number of units sold?" Then, even assuming the root cause was one TiVo should probably have caught - a big assumption - it means they made a mistake, not that the platform is inferior. Again, we use units costing many tens of thousands of dollars each, from the top manufacturers in the industry. Some of our customers have highly critical uptime needs, including delivering 911 fire, police, and emergency medical services, critical banking data, you name it. We pay a large premium for reliability in our equipment. Yet not one of the manufacturers whose products we use can say they have never had a software release with a severe problem. Numerous times these have resulted in serious and sometimes prolonged outages.

it is a fact that Tivo has posted on this forum to gain insight into issues relating to Tivo HD units locking up. These are not debatable opinions, but documented facts. Does this make the Tivo HD an unreliable system?
Only if you can show the problem to be widespread and significantly greater than other manufacturer's offerings in the same sector - in this case consumer electronics. You have done nothing to the effect, only griped about their existence in the case of the TiVo and ignored their existence in the case of otehr manufacturers.

The fact that Tivo spends any resources (and by resources I mean any monies that could be directed for the IT tards who do not understand business management) toward "new" features rather than stabilizing the platform is ridiculous at this stage.
The platform is stable. That you may have had problems is tough for you. Since the release of 9.3, I've only had one service impacting problem, and although it impacts me fairly regularly, I know it doesn't impact others very often. I'm hoping it may have been fixed in 9.4. I should know in a few days or so. Only an idiot would suggest TiVo forgo a clear and inexpensive avenue for the generation of customer revenue (Amazon Unbox), for any reason, let alone to apply the funds in an insignificant attempt to fix issues for a small subset of users. If anything, a much greater amount could be deployed by setting aside a small amount of the additional revenues from Unbox subscriptions to pay for the additional software development.

Fanboys you better start praying to the Tivo Gods that Apple does not decide this is a good arena to add functionality to the rock solid Apple TV platform
Your agenda is showing. You might want to tuck it back in.

Oh yeah, forgot to add, hey Series 3 boys, what happened to that platform? Seems to have made a mysterious disappearance.
You'd better make an appointment with your optometrist. Or maybe just your 3rd grade teacher. There's a reason this area is called "TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs". There are over 9000 threads and 164,000 posts in it, including, perhaps sadly, yours.

The Series 3 platform definitely has not made a mysterious disappearance, but I'm beginning to wish certain forum participants would.

[CuriousMark]

It looks like Rick Munarriz of the Motley Fool has been reading this thread.

Meet TiVo Fonzarelli (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/08/28/meet-tivo-fonzarelli.aspx)