TiVo introducing “product purchase” feature with Amazon

[mtchamp]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/technology/22tivo.html?ref=business

TiVo and Amazon Team Up
By BRAD STONE
Published: July 22, 2008
SAN FRANCISCO — TiVo, the Silicon Valley company that introduced millions to the joy of skipping television commercials, is trying to crack a decades-old media dream. It wants to turn the television remote control into a tool for buying the products being advertised and promoted on commercials and talk shows.

The company, based in Alviso, Calif., will introduce a “product purchase” feature on Tuesday in partnership with the Internet retailer Amazon.com. Owners of TiVo video recorders will see, in TiVo’s various onscreen menus, links to buy products like CDs, DVDs and books that guests are promoting on talk shows like “The Oprah Winfrey Show,” “The Late Show With David Letterman” and “The Daily Show.”

In the months ahead, TiVo plans to begin offering this feature to advertisers and programmers, so that the chance to buy products and have them delivered will be presented to viewers during commercials and even alongside product placements during live shows.

The move highlights TiVo’s attempt to shift from being a creator of set-top boxes, competing with copycat devices, to being an advertising innovator that is trying to develop advertising technologies for the television industry.

“Just a few years ago, we were viewed with great paranoia as the disruptor,” said Thomas S. Rogers, chief executive of TiVo. “Our goal now is to work with the media industry to come up with ways to resist the downward pressure of less advertising viewing and create a way for advertising on TV to become more effective, more engaging and closer to the sale.”

“What we are trying to do is to create all the underpinnings of a future business model for television,” he said.

For years, interactive advertising on television has been characterized by risky experiments and high-profile failures. Most famously, Time Warner took a shot at the concept with its pioneering but expensive Qube box trial in Ohio in the late 1970s.

One problem with all previous experiments in this area, Mr. Rogers said, was that buying a product through the television took the viewer out of the experience they had actually settled in for — watching a program.

But on TiVo, if a viewer chooses to buy an advertised item during a broadcast, TiVo records the rest of the program so the viewer can easily return to it after the purchase. TiVo users will also be able to save their intended purchases in their Amazon account and return to the site later to complete the transaction.

TiVo and Amazon, based in Seattle, have an existing relationship. Since last year, owners of broadband-connected TiVos have been able to download movies and televisions shows to their set-top boxes from Amazon’s digital video store, now called Amazon Video on Demand. The two companies have not disclosed the financial details of their newest deal, but in general Amazon’s affiliates get a 15 percent slice of a sale when a customer they referred makes a purchase on the site.

But the media world may not be so quick to jump at TiVo’s new buy-it-now feature. More than a decade after it altered the fundamental experience of watching television, TiVo’s base of users remains relatively small.

TiVo’s purchase feature “is a harbinger of what television ultimately should become,” said Timothy Hanlon, senior vice president for Denuo, the media futures division of the Publicis Groupe. “But TiVo is only in around four million plus homes. From a national advertising perspective, if it doesn’t get beyond that base it remains nothing more than a curiosity.”

TiVo knows that, which is why the company is trying to branch out of the set-top box business and into building software that it can license to much larger media companies. For the last three years, TiVo has been working with the cable operators Comcast and Cox to put its user-friendly software in their set-top boxes. Both of those efforts are still in trials.

Mr. Rogers also said TiVo’s deal with Comcast includes a provision for TiVo to provide its interactive ad technology for the cable company’s other, non-TiVo digital video recorders. Though Mr. Rogers says “this is not our focus today,” becoming a broker for the next generation of interactive ads may be TiVo’s ultimate goal.

Possible customers for its interactive ad technology include the cable and satellite companies and their consortiums, like Project Canoe, a joint effort by six cable operators to create a technology platform to sell customized and interactive ads.

To publicize TiVo’s efforts at creating this new advertising model for television, Mr. Rogers is not above sowing a little fear about some of the grim trends in the business, which TiVo itself helped to unleash.

As DVRs get more popular, “the majority of commercials in home will be fast-forwarded through,” he said. “It is critical that there be a form of advertising and a transactional solution that underpins the DVR, or the economics of television are going to be substantially undermined.”

[RoyK]

...even alongside product placements during live shows....


Crap!

[pdhenry]

Nah. Useful. But only with an opt in/opt out feature - as in, a means not to see the ad onscreen during the programming.

[CuriousMark]

Nah. Useful. But only with an opt in/opt out feature - as in, a means not to see the ad onscreen during the programming.

Maybe it will be a thumbs up that jumps to an HME or something like what we have already seen. Those aren't optionable now, so I suspect that will remain the case.

[RoyK]

Just what the viewing public will love - a constant barrage of "Press Thumbs Up to Purchase" icons blinking as they watch programs. When word of this gets out TiVo will be lucky if they can give away their subscriptions. The competition will have a field day.

Oops, I guess the word has gotten out, hasn't it!

[CuriousMark]

Just what the viewing public will love - a constant barrage of "Press Thumbs Up to Purchase" icons blinking as they watch programs. When word of this gets out TiVo will be lucky if they can give away their subscriptions. The competition will have a field day.

You know, it could just as easily be the line on the save or delete screen at the end of a program that takes you there, so until we know more it is probably premature to get out the pitchforks and torches.

[RoyK]

You know, it could just as easily be the line on the save or delete screen at the end of a program that takes you there, so until we know more it is probably premature to get out the pitchforks and torches.

I don't read .."even alongside product placements during live shows".... that way. Do you?

[CuriousMark]

I don't read .."even alongside product placements during live shows".... that way. Do you?

No, but I think we should give them a chance to try to keep it to a civilized level.

[20TIL6]

I like the idea. I have bought books after seeing authors interviewed on The Daily Show. Now I could do it while watching the show rather than remembering to make the purchase later. I would use this.

[samo]

The move highlights TiVo’s attempt to shift from being a creator of set-top boxes, competing with copycat devices, to being an advertising innovator that is trying to develop advertising technologies for the television industry.
"Slippery slope" in action. Will this finally convince TiVo fan boys club that "TiVo needs to make profit" is the wrong excuse for arguing about increasing presence of unwanted advertisement on TiVo?

[scandia101]

It's a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Even if I want to buy that book or gizmo being discussed on a TV show, I'm not going to just buy it from the vendor that happens to be available right there on the spot. I'm going to shop for the best price.

[RoyK]

I just emailed the following to Amazon.

I have been an Amazon customer for several years. In that time I have made thousands of dollars in purchases.

I am also a TiVo user and have just read that you have partnered with TiVo in a project to sell through ads on TiVo to include during product placements in live shows.

I find such advertising EXTREMELY undesirable to the point that if I see such advertising I will take great pains to give another company my business in the future.

[aadam101]

I kinda like the idea. Tivo has already pioneered an entire industry and they may be about to pioneer another.

[RoyK]

I kinda like the idea. Tivo has already pioneered an entire industry and they may be about to pioneer another.

I bought mine to enjoy watching TV, not to have it turned in to a damned vending machine.

[tevoisseur]

Exactly, is there some sort of incentive to buy it from Amazon through Tivo?

It's a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Even if I want to buy that book or gizmo being discussed on a TV show, I'm not going to just buy it from the vendor that happens to be available right there on the spot. I'm going to shop for the best price.

[yunlin12]

It's a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Even if I want to buy that book or gizmo being discussed on a TV show, I'm not going to just buy it from the vendor that happens to be available right there on the spot. I'm going to shop for the best price.

I do most of my shopping online now, and I find that more often then not, Amazon gives me the best or close to the best price, especially for music, DVD's, and I imagine books. If I buy an expensive item like a computer I may look at Dell or HP for sales, but for smaller stuff, from shoes, to batteries, to grill thermostats, I'd rather save the time and go straight to Amazon. Having bought from Amazon before, I trust buying from them, and appreciate the convenience. Not saying you should buy stuff from Amazon like I do, just saying try it, see if it's useful to you, before you bury it.

[danieljanderson]

I cannot -for even a a moment- imagine that an add will pop up during a show asking me if I'm interested in purchasing.
Let's wait and see how this works.

[Einselen]

Agreed here with the thumbs up to buy from Amazon idea is bad unless you can opt in/out and in this case I would highly recommend the opt in route as people are too stupid (not here but in general) to find out about opting out and the call centers will be flooded with cancellation calls. I was also the one who was fine with the stars at the delete screen and bottom of the groups folder (still am) but this is too far (again if it goes that way, we will have to see)

[scandia101]

I do most of my shopping online now, and I find that more often then not, Amazon gives me the best or close to the best price, especially for music, DVD's, and I imagine books.

And how do you know what kind of deal you are getting from Amazon? Could it be because you are shopping around? That's my point.

[lrhorer]

I do most of my shopping online now
Other than for groceries, so do I, BUT ONLY WHEN I WANT TO BE SHOPPING. I don't appreciate any vendor interrupting me when I want to be doing something else. One of my main duties is deciding what materials to purchase and from whom in order to deliver service to our customers, to the tune of several million dollars a year. Obviously, lots of vendors would like a piece of that pie, and many sales reps vie for my spending decisions. Any sales rep who sends me unsolicited material or tries to contact me without my requesting it is automatically and immediately black-listed by me after only 1 warning.

[jfh3]

I just emailed the following to Amazon.

You are amazing.

We don't even know how this is going to work yet and you're complaining.

[RoyK]

You are amazing.

We don't even know how this is going to work yet and you're complaining.

You are wrong there. I haven't even begun to complain.

[kas25]

Lets hope they start with the ability to get MP3 download's from Amazon, similar to what the Apple TV lets you do. Its great browsing music and being able to buy from the tv.

[kas25]

Lets hope they start with the ability to get MP3 download's from Amazon, similar to what the Apple TV lets you do. Its great browsing music and being able to buy from the tv.
To reply to my own post, there have been many times i've been watching a show and liked a song but didn't know who it was. I would love the ability to see who was singing and buy the song with a few clicks. How to do this without ruining the viewing of the show is the question.

[davezatz]

as a customer, this won't do much for me. other than possibly piss me off if they work many onscreen advertising deals ;)

BUT i was provided a few mockups (though the real stuff should be visible later today) to share:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-07/tivo-brings-amazoncom-shopping-to-television/

And the release is here:
http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=323783

[crawform]

This doesn't bother me that much. That being said, I wish they would implement HD via unbox or streaming first.

[classicsat]

So that means when Dave gives away a box of meat as a prize, I can order same?

[nhaigh]

To be honest I quite like the idea. If a commercial is on and I have a way to link through to buy it I have no problem with that, after all why would I worry about on screen adverts over commercials. If it is a product promotion in a chat show or something and a small "thumbs up to buy" comes up I don't expect I'd have a problem with that either.

If however we get purchase screens in the middle of scripted shows then I will have an issue with it affecting my enjoyment of the program.

I vote for waiting to see what we get.

As a side, I quite like the idea of a commercial aspect to TiVo allowing us to mitigate some of the subscription costs. I can imagine a day when you can subscribe commercial free for a fee but otherwise its free.

[fallingwater]

“But TiVo is only in around four million plus homes. From a national advertising perspective, if it doesn’t get beyond that base it remains nothing more than a curiosity.” said Timothy Hanlon, senior vice president for Denuo, the media futures division of the Publicis Groupe.

TiVo is trying. (Sometimes very trying.) They can't seem to get their innovative technological concept to really pay off, no matter how cleverly they position it.

IMHO the technology for providing convienient product positioning for spontaneous sales in the mass-market should be paid for by sellers and, to be succesful, needs to be free to an end user.

Don't know what's economically realistic or feasible but somehow Australia comes to mind. Best wishes TiVo. :confused:

[rodalpho]

I've been a TiVo subscriber and enthusiast since early 2000. My AIM icon and windows login icons are the TiVo guy. I've convinced literally dozens of friends and coworkers to buy TiVos over the years.

If my TiVo starts popping up ads during actual programming and there's no way to opt out of this behavior, I will sell my TiVo and tell all my friends and coworkers to do the same. I'll shell out the cash for hauppauge ambarella boxes, multiple cable STBs, a HTPC, and sagetv or windows MCE. This is completely unacceptable to me.

As some have said in this thread, maybe we're overreacting. I sure hope so; if not, my decade-long love affair with TiVo is about to come to an unhappy end.

[dylanemcgregor]

I'm just disappointed that since I don't have cable, OTA, or Sat, that I won't be able to use this. Sounds like a great feature, Starship Troopers come to real life! ;)

[kmill14]

Without knowing how its going to work, it cracks me up how people are already completely bent out of shape. You think you'll be watching a football game and suddenly a thumps-up request is going to pop up for you to buy an NFL jersey? Doubtful.

TiVo has done some dumb things, but they do tend to learn from their mistakes. So far, have you seen a thumbs up request during an actual show?

So until you actually see some new type of invasion of your viewing habits, I think you should just sit back and see how it works.

[CuriousMark]

If you look at the pictures on Zatz Not Funny you see that these are new links on existing HME screens. If you are shopping Amazon Unbox, you now have a link to look at related hard merchandise. So at least the first coming of this feature is pretty innocuous. I can see them adding jumps at the save/delete pop up after a show that might offer you a chance to shop for music in the show or maybe the camcorder used on Burn Notice to do some cheap surveillance, but that link is easily ignorable.

If thumbs up to purchase bugs start popping up in shows and a lot of people click through, then they will get very popular fast and we will see lots of them. If no one clicks through on those, they will fade away, assuming they ever even appear in the first place. Actually, on a shopping channel, they would be very welcome to both the buyer and seller.

[RoyK]

Without knowing how its going to work, it cracks me up how people are already completely bent out of shape. You think you'll be watching a football game and suddenly a thumps-up request is going to pop up for you to buy an NFL jersey? Doubtful.

Is there some part of "even alongside product placements during live shows" that you don't understand?

TiVo has done some dumb things, but they do tend to learn from their mistakes. So far, have you seen a thumbs up request during an actual show?

Not yet but I have seen banner ads over actual shows. That was shot down very quickly.


So until you actually see some new type of invasion of your viewing habits, I think you should just sit back and see how it works.

You can sit back if you wish. I intend to be VERY proactive.

[rodalpho]

The press release and nytimes article very clearly state that's exactly what they're going to do. If there's been some miscommunication and we're all overreacting it would be great PR for someone from TiVo to chime in and defuse the situation.

http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=323783
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/technology/22tivo.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

[kmill14]

Is there some part of "even alongside product placements during live shows" that you don't understand?

You're blowing this way out of proportion without seeing a single invasion of a show since the...

Not yet but I have seen banner ads over actual shows. That was shot down very quickly.

TiVo learned from that mistake, and you haven't seen that type of invasive placement since. Just because the article said "during live shows" does not mean it would occur during the show itself (unless the content provider wanted it that way). So maybe the Oprah show decides they want to place a Thumbs Up request during their show, and you'll get to blame Oprah for that. But then again, the 1000's of women watching Oprah during the day who want to buy her next book recommendation will be happy to click on that Thumbs Up and buy the book then and there.

But most likely it will continue to be placements during advertisements "during live shows", and if you like to skip the ads, no harm done to you.

[benraymond]

I agree with many of the posts here.

I love my TiVo box. I can't imagine going back to regular TV. My family has adjusted to it and loves it as well. $350 for the original box. I swallowed hard and paid the $300 for three years when they didn't offer lifetime subscriptions. Another $200 for the DVR expander because I didn't feel like opening the box. Soon after, I began seeing the ads on the menus - I was irritated, but accepted it. I planned to add another TV, and another TiVo box... Then this announcement.

If during a program I can hit a button for "learn more," and it doesn't slow down the interface, fine.

If I have ads, text or otherwise pop up while I'm watching a show, that will be a dealbreaker for me. I will put the TiVo on the Kids TV until the subscription runs out and build myself a DVR, one without a subscription and with automatic ad skipping, and I will not give another nickel to TiVo. About a half dozen people I know are actively thinking about buying TiVo with my raves about the system - If this system gets implemented in the way that I fear that it will, they will all get calls from me telling them not to buy one.

[BlackBetty]

Without knowing how its going to work, it cracks me up how people are already completely bent out of shape. You think you'll be watching a football game and suddenly a thumps-up request is going to pop up for you to buy an NFL jersey? Doubtful.

TiVo has done some dumb things, but they do tend to learn from their mistakes. So far, have you seen a thumbs up request during an actual show?

So until you actually see some new type of invasion of your viewing habits, I think you should just sit back and see how it works.

+1 bunch of chicken littles.

[ZeoTiVo]

Television shows are just not free in their first showing. It takes money to make them and DVRs are now making the advertisers curious as to what they will do about the ability to FF/skip over their ads. Anyone truly feel entitled to see first run TV shows without commercials of some sort that foot the bill for creating the show? I would rather see innovation of new advertising approaches versus shows going to unregulated "premium" channels which can set no-copy flags or else force no add skipping etc.. Sure there will be ways to setup your own recording system which gets around such flags and so forth, but it will just get harder to stay the step ahead and really not worth it to most.

And as a Capitalist leaning member of our society I think commerce is generally a good thing. I plan on my opt-in/opt-out to be by shows I watch or not watch. :)

[rodalpho]

Well, I mean, welcome to the internet, hope you enjoy your stay.

But again the press release and nytimes article do very clearly imply that ads will be shown during actual programming and not during the interstitial advertisements. Again, this could be very easily defused by a brief statement from TiVo's representatives on these forums, who without a doubt are all reading this thread right now.

Edit: We've gone over this before Zeo and I again affirm that I do not agree and did not sign any contract, social or otherwise, agreeing to watch advertisements. I pay over $100/month for cable TV. The airwaves are given to television networks to use completely free of charge by the government and cable/satellite companies use the money I pay them monthly to pay networks to carry their programming. It's not my fault that their business model is based upon interstitial advertising and DVRs such as TiVo obviously destroy that model. I don't care, and I don't feel the slightest bit obligated to watch their advertisements.

If that means TV dies, so be it. Amen.

But somehow I think they'll find a way to keep going.

[ZeoTiVo]

Not yet but I have seen banner ads over actual shows. That was shot down very quickly.

come on Roy - you know the banner over the actual show was a glitch in the implementation and never, ever a deisgned or planned for part of the banner ads over commercials

at least keep the complaining real so we can take you more seriously

[MickeS]

It's a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. Even if I want to buy that book or gizmo being discussed on a TV show, I'm not going to just buy it from the vendor that happens to be available right there on the spot. I'm going to shop for the best price.

While I don't mind the idea, I agree with you. No way am I buying from the one who happened to pay the most to get their ad on there, without checking the competition first.

Meanwhile, I'd like for TiVo to increase the use of the "Thumbs up" during TV promos. So many times I've wanted to record a show when I happen to catch a promo for it.

[mikeyts]

Meanwhile, I'd like for TiVo to increase the use of the "Thumbs up" during TV promos. So many times I've wanted to record a show when I happen to catch a promo for it.I think that feature is something that TiVo sells to the networks--it puts the thumbs-up icon up when it catches the proper data in the content stream, inserted by the content provider. Obviously not every network has bought it nor do they use it on all of their upcoming program ads.

[kmill14]

The press release and nytimes article very clearly state that's exactly what they're going to do. If there's been some miscommunication and we're all overreacting it would be great PR for someone from TiVo to chime in and defuse the situation.

http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=323783
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/technology/22tivo.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

No where in TiVo's press release did they say that the ad placements would take place during the actual show. The way their program is set up today is specifically during advertisements and in the menu system. It also mentioned using Swivel Search, and I imagine there will be a full browsing system for those who don't want to sit in front of a PC screen to shop.

Now with that said, it could very well happen that the Oprah producers might want to build an ad placement during the actual viewing of a segment promoting new products. But the Oprah show specifically has a huge following of people who flock to any product she promotes. You think viewers of her show will complain if they are given the opportunity to pause the show and go buy the product in question?

[rodalpho]

It's very strongly implied with (italics mine)
a publisher can merchandise an author's book during a talk show when the author appears as a guest
Teaming up with TiVo is a great way to engage consumers during a TV program
and the NYTimes article does say so outright. Again, if this is all a miscommunication, it would be great for a TiVo rep to jump in at any time and let us know.

[kmill14]

The NYT has never misrepresented anything.

Besides, if you are watching Oprah, and she is pushing a new book, will you complain if you get a Thumbs Up request to buy it? If YES, why are you watching Oprah push a book?

[ZeoTiVo]

It's very strongly implied with (italics mine)


and the NYTimes article does say so outright. Again, if this is all a miscommunication, it would be great for a TiVo rep to jump in at any time and let us know.

TiVo employees would not be speaking to anouncements that are still in press release stage. Effective corportae policy would be to funnel all communication via a single point of contact which is a communications person. The TiVo employees who participate here do not hold such job functions.

With that said, feel freeto parse such initial press releases but typically communication is limited at this point simply because it i a new thing and perhaps TiVo has not decided on how it will all work yet. I await more definitive information on how the whole thing will work, but do not expect to see it here. :)

[rainwater]

Besides, if you are watching Oprah, and she is pushing a new book, will you complain if you get a Thumbs Up request to buy it? If YES, why are you watching Oprah push a book?

So where does it end? Any type of advertisements over actual programming will be the end of TiVo. Ads over commercials still haven't gone over well, but they would be crossing a serious line if done over actual programming.

[rodalpho]

In the past TiVo employees have been quick to jump on the forums and correct misconceptions after potentially contraversial press releases, software bugs, etc. I've been on these forums since 2000 (my old login account was lost during the transition from avsforums, I think) and can remember that happening plenty of times. Not to say that they couldn't have changed that policy, but still.

I don't care about oprah because I don't watch oprah. I do care about burn notice.

[yunlin12]

And how do you know what kind of deal you are getting from Amazon? Could it be because you are shopping around? That's my point.

After I've shopped around a few times for certain type of goods, I've come to realize that Amazon usually gives me a pretty good price, so I don't spend time shop around any more. You are welcome to do your own comparison shopping.

[kmill14]

So where does it end? Any type of advertisements over actual programming will be the end of TiVo. Ads over commercials still haven't gone over well, but they would be crossing a serious line if done over actual programming.

Do you really think TiVo is looking to drive away their customers?

Again, they learned from their past ad banner mistake (intential or otherwise) and you haven't seen it in a show since. The Thumbs Up placements in ads is hardly invasive if people are skipping them anyway. For those people watching that AmEx commercial and are interested in a credit card, they might actually be thankful for the easy way to apply for it from their comfy sofa.

So again, until you actually see something worth a real gripe, wait and see how it plays out.

[yunlin12]

So where does it end? Any type of advertisements over actual programming will be the end of TiVo. Ads over commercials still haven't gone over well, but they would be crossing a serious line if done over actual programming.

It ends when you as a consumer got fed up and vote with your money. That's what some of us here have been saying all along hasn't it, just see if you like it or not, then vote with your money. If it's truly atrocious, then leave Tivo and watch it die.

[rodalpho]

No, I agree with the NYT's take on the situation in that TiVo is trying to move away from providing a service on custom set top boxes to being an advertising agency willing and able to address the DVR paradigm. They aren't trying to drive away their current customers, but they're floundering, and they need a new business model. Providing a great DVR experience is no longer their primary goal, or at least not the overriding goal corporate-wide. Not to say that their DVR business will be going away or completely whored out; they'll use it to leverage their advertising initiatives and it still needs to be a competitive and compelling DVR. But those ads come first.

That's what I think.

[pomerlp]

Lets hope they start with the ability to get MP3 download's from Amazon, similar to what the Apple TV lets you do. Its great browsing music and being able to buy from the tv.

Technically you can do this with your computer and just add it to your music. It will play on your TiVo if you have TiVo Desktop or pyTiVo.

Since I keep my checkbook on my computer I'd rather keep doing it this way.

Now I have a question. As I understand this a product is advertised. The "press thumbs up for more info" comes up. You press thumbs up. Then it would lead you to a page, I believe, that would require your password. That's the way it works when you purchase something from your TiVo now.

So if you have kids unless they find out your password you're OK, right?

Anyway this whole thing about the press thumbs up for more info I've seen as I've fast forward through commercials. So what's different? Isn't just more of that?

[ZeoTiVo]

In the past TiVo employees have been quick to jump on the forums and correct misconceptions

I don't care about oprah because I don't watch oprah. I do care about burn notice.

I am afraid that is the past :( The trend is to shy away from items that are not truly near public release on the DVRs.

I also will be keeping an eye on Burn Notice though I just started watching the last season of shows queued up on my TiVo.

[yunlin12]

A slight change of topic. I wonder if Tivo will give access to Amazon's product reviews. I find those very useful.

[yunlin12]

I don't care about oprah because I don't watch oprah. I do care about burn notice.

Lets hope they don't screw up and start pushing Oprah book club stuff during Burn Notice then. Somehow I'm guessing Tivo/Amazon won't be that dumb.

[ZeoTiVo]

No, I agree with the NYT's take on the situation in that TiVo is trying to move away from providing a service on custom set top boxes to being an advertising agency willing and able to address the DVR paradigm. .

I agree in part. The first TiVo CEO was a DVR innovator bent solely on making a great DVR. The second CEO is a deal innovator tasked with turning the company profitable. Clearly his idea is to leverage the platform for any profitable deals to be found. This means he has to keep trying to grow the TiVo DVR use to make better deals. A perplexing dichotomy when it comes to ad deals.

Given the deals he has made already and this new one, I would not say TiVo is floundering and instead now plotting its course through that dichotomy

[moyekj]

Anyway this whole thing about the press thumbs up for more info I've seen as I've fast forward through commercials. So what's different? Isn't just more of that? The potential contention here is that the thumbs up will appear DURING regular programming, not just during commercials. If that's the case that's very invasive in my opinion and not a business model decision I'm willing to live with. It's bad enough the likes of NBC/Universal and others already stick permanent advertising text during their shows, this is pushing it to a whole new realm.

[RoyK]

It ends when you as a consumer got fed up and vote with your money. That's what some of us here have been saying all along hasn't it, just see if you like it or not, then vote with your money. If it's truly atrocious, then leave Tivo and watch it die.

There are ways of expressing displeasure without cutting off your nose. I for one am attacking from the other end - the sponsors, promoters, TV Shows and their personalities, and distributors of the products.

I also intend to make absolutely certain that as many prospective TiVo customers as I can reach are aware before signing up that they can expect to be seeing this crap in exchange for their hardware and subscription purchase dollars. If they are so aware and buy anyhow more power to them.

[RoyK]

come on Roy - you know the banner over the actual show was a glitch in the implementation and never, ever a deisgned or planned for part of the banner ads over commercials

at least keep the complaining real so we can take you more seriously

Perhaps that is true - that it was a glitch. This, on the other hand, is a deliberate. Right?

[ZeoTiVo]

There are ways of expressing displeasure without cutting off your nose. I for one am attacking from the other end - the sponsors, promoters, TV Shows and their personalities, and distributors of the products.


that is the correct place to go. Without effective advertising then the money dries up for all those people and the business folk tell the advertisers to find more effective places for advertising dollars. Thus you either have to pay a lot more to see a show or the show is not there to record no matter the DVR and its ability to skip commercials

[ZeoTiVo]

Perhaps that is true - that it was a glitch. This, on the other hand, is a deliberate. Right?

Do not know yet,
I will say that certainly effective advertising would be to make sure we all see it and can not somehow skip it.

[bmgoodman]

To me:

Acceptable would be a "Press thumbs up to purchase" during

(1) a commercial break,
(2) an infomercial,
(3) a talk show where the item is directly related to the topic or guest,
(4) at the end of a program, added to the menu to "Keep Recording/Delete Recording" as a choice that says "To purchase any of the products featured on this program, select here",
(5) during a reality show like Survivor or Amazing Race.

To clarify number (3), if an actor is on Leno discussing the new director's cut of his movie on DVD, that's OK. If he tosses out a random, "I'd like a Pepsi, Jay", that's over the line (to me).

To clarify number (4), I do NOT want to see separate choices for every product cluttering up the end of the show. I'd accept a single line item that could then have sub-menus.

Unacceptable would be any interruption during scripted programming at any time except for the very end. I would NOT accept the "Press Thumbs Up" during FF, REW, PAUSE, Skip-to-tick, or Instant Replay.

This is clearly coming regardless of whether we like it, but I do feel like Tivo's latest attempts at becoming profitable have been at our expense. I'm willing to bend a bit, but I'm hoping they don't push me past my breaking point.

Tivo: TV your way!

[kemajor]

Television shows are just not free in their first showing. It takes money to make them and DVRs are now making the advertisers curious as to what they will do about the ability to FF/skip over their ads. Anyone truly feel entitled to see first run TV shows without commercials of some sort that foot the bill for creating the show? I would rather see innovation of new advertising approaches versus shows going to unregulated "premium" channels which can set no-copy flags or else force no add skipping etc.. Sure there will be ways to setup your own recording system which gets around such flags and so forth, but it will just get harder to stay the step ahead and really not worth it to most.

And as a Capitalist leaning member of our society I think commerce is generally a good thing. I plan on my opt-in/opt-out to be by shows I watch or not watch. :)

To me the answer is simple. Go to 100% a la carte programming and change them to pay channels like HBO. I would pay to support 100% advertising free programming as long as it is only for the channels I *want*. In other words the complete elimination of television advertising. :up:

Even better, eliminate "channels" altogether and just go to a pay for content viewed model with the choice of free with ads or pay to receive the content with no ads. You just choose what you want to watch and if you want it "free" (with ad's) or to pay to receive it without ad's. Wouldn't matter if it was produced by HBO, ABC, Playboy Channel, or Joe Blows Garage Network.

- Kelly

[TiVoStephen]

Let me be clear: We have NO intention to interrupt shows with product purchase.

Edit: After consultation with my co-workers, took out the "big" and "red" because it's a bit rude.

[kas25]

Move on complainers. Nothing left to see here.

[Curtis]

The purchase can be postponed. The advertisement however...

[RoyK]

Let me be clear:

.....[/SIZE]

You can be a bit more clear since different folks may define "interrupt" in different ways. Do you intend to display ANY prompt, icon, or sound over programming?

[Globular]

Stephen,

I didn't see any exclamation marks in your message, so clearly it can't be true.

:)

[ZeoTiVo]

To me the answer is simple. Go to 100% a la carte programming and change them to pay channels like HBO. I would pay to support 100% advertising free programming as long as it is only for the channels I *want*. In other words the complete elimination of television advertising. :up:

Even better, eliminate "channels" altogether and just go to a pay for content viewed model with the choice of free with ads or pay to receive the content with no ads.
smaller players would drop quickly and the cost would get high very quickly. even at 1.99 a show that would be 20 shows versus my cable bill of 40$. I for one like advertising footing the bulk of the bill for my TV viewing habit

[rodalpho]

Thanks Stephen.

Moving along now...

[TiVoStephen]

With that out of the way, here's what you'll see with the new feature launching today.

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.) More shows will come in the future.
* In the future, we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* In the future, we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

The second and third items you'll see next week, and if they're well received we'll evaluating continuing with them.

I'm very excited about this new feature -- it's long been high on my wishlist of things that I want when I watch TV, and I'm glad we've released this new feature for our customers.

Any questions, please let me know!

Best regards,
Stephen

P.S. Globular, here's a few for you: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: grammar
EDIT 2: Make it clearer about the Showcase launch.

[kas25]

With that out of the way, here's what's you'll see with the new feature launching today.

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.)
* Each week we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* Each week we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

The last two items you'll see next week.
I assume all purchases via Amazon are via mail, not for download in the case of music? Thanks for the info.

[kemajor]

smaller players would drop quickly and the cost would get high very quickly. even at 1.99 a show that would be 20 shows versus my cable bill of 40$. I for one like advertising footing the bulk of the bill for my TV viewing habit

Small players dropping quickly would be a great benefit. They would be gone today if we weren't forced into "channel package" deals.

It would also provide a real incentive for the creation of quality programming.

I'm willing to pay for quality, ad free, a la carte programming.

I'd pay just for the satisfaction of seeing some of the crap channels in my packages go away, even though I'm not forced to watch them, I am paying for them now. I'd rather pay for them to be gone. If there is a market for "The Corn Channel" then let it be self sufficient either through advertising or customers who specifically choose to pay for their programming.

OK, off my soapbox and back to the real world now...

- Kelly

[MickeS]

Small players dropping quickly would be a great benefit. They would be gone today if we weren't forced into "channel package" deals.

It would also provide a real incentive for the creation of quality programming.

I'm willing to pay for quality, ad free, a la carte programming.

I'd pay just for the satisfaction of seeing some of the crap channels in my packages go away, even though I'm not forced to watch them, I am paying for them now. I'd rather pay for them to be gone. If there is a market for "The Corn Channel" then let it be self sufficient either through advertising or customers who specifically choose to pay for their programming.

OK, off my soapbox and back to the real world now...

- Kelly
I agree 100%.

If anyone looks at the content out there... they'd see that the "smaller players" fill their time with mostly recycled crap and infomercials. Virtually all channels eventually end up running the same shows, because there is simply not enough material to fill niche channels. But thanks to the "all or nothing" system these channels that hardly anyone really wants still can keep going.

A la carte would hurt the channels, but it would not impact the viewers. IMO. :)

[CuriousMark]

I assume all purchases via Amazon are via mail, not for download in the case of music? Thanks for the info.
I am hoping you can put downloads in a queue and then later when you get to a PC and browse to Amazon you will get a notice they are in your queue and asked if you would like to download them. That would be sweet.

[TiVoStephen]

You can be a bit more clear since different folks may define "interrupt" in different ways. Do you intend to display ANY prompt, icon, or sound over programming?Roy, I know you have your suspicions, but please give us the benefit of the doubt. We don't intend to do anything rude or disruptive and I believe our track record so far supports that position.

This is honestly a great feature and we want our customers to love it. You're watching Grey's Anatomy and at the end have an opportunity to get, say, the most recent season of DVDs or soundtrack at a great price from a leading e-tailer. It is in our best interest and our customers' best interest to make this compelling, not annoying.

Best regards,
Stephen

(Edit: Changed "customer's" to "customers'" (since we have more than one).

[TiVoStephen]

I assume all purchases via Amazon are via mail, not for download in the case of music? Thanks for the info.Yes, via mail. For now, we're offering physical books, CDs and DVDs via product purchase -- no downloads.

Best,
Stephen

[ZeoTiVo]

With that out of the way, here's what you'll see with the new feature launching today.

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.) More shows will come in the future.
* Each week we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* Each week we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

The last two items you'll see next week.

I'm very excited about this new feature -- it's long been high on my wishlist of things that I want when I watch TV, and I'm glad we've released this new feature for our customers.

Any questions, please let me know!

Best regards,
Stephen

P.S. Globular, here's a few for you: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: grammar

That is excellent news and the way you wrote it makes it a very compelling new feature. :up:
If the press release had been this clear then the thread would have started witha very different tone.

I think TiVoStephen should start writing the press releases for TiVo inc. :D

[CuriousMark]

Yes, via mail. For now, we're offering physical books, CDs and DVDs via product purchase -- no downloads.

Thanks for the details. Perhaps a future update will fulfill my wish.

[pomerlp]

The potential contention here is that the thumbs up will appear DURING regular programming, not just during commercials. If that's the case that's very invasive in my opinion and not a business model decision I'm willing to live with. It's bad enough the likes of NBC/Universal and others already stick permanent advertising text during their shows, this is pushing it to a whole new realm.

I have to admit it bugs me when I'm watching something and they keep showing whats coming on next.

But you're saying the "potential contention." After reading it again this sticks out like a sore thumb: "By teaming with Amazon.com, TiVo enables viewers to purchase products related to their favorite TV shows or that they've seen in TV ads without leaving their couch. For example, if a guest on the Daily Show or Oprah has a new book, CD, or DVD out, you can purchase it on Amazon.com using your TiVo remote without missing a second of TV, whether the viewer is watching live or recorded. The viewer with an impulse can buy right away and no longer needs to remember to do so the next time they are at their PC. Television advertisers and consumer products companies are no longer limited to the traditional linear shopping channels that require live viewing for product merchandising and fulfillment -- if their product is seen or advertised on any TV show or network, and sold by Amazon.com it can be merchandised to viewers through TiVo."

I get it now. But I have to be honest if they keep it up in the upper corner of the screen and it helps with revenue I can put up with that a great deal easier then I can the interruptions that the CW puts on in the middle of a show, where they use almost half the screen.

And I have to admit there are times when I'll hear somebody talking about something that sounds interesting and then forget what the heck the name of the book or artist is.

Still since I can never remember my Amazon password I'll have to get up and go to my TiVo to Amazon password I'll have to get up and look it up in my password protector on my computer.:) So that would mean putting it on pause, which I probably wouldn't do.

Just more garbage we will have to deal with I suppose.

[gonzotek]

I have to admit it bugs me when I'm watching something and they keep showing whats coming on next.

But you're saying the "potential contention." After reading it again this sticks out like a sore thumb: "By teaming with Amazon.com, TiVo enables viewers to purchase products related to their favorite TV shows or that they've seen in TV ads without leaving their couch. For example, if a guest on the Daily Show or Oprah has a new book, CD, or DVD out, you can purchase it on Amazon.com using your TiVo remote without missing a second of TV, whether the viewer is watching live or recorded. The viewer with an impulse can buy right away and no longer needs to remember to do so the next time they are at their PC. Television advertisers and consumer products companies are no longer limited to the traditional linear shopping channels that require live viewing for product merchandising and fulfillment -- if their product is seen or advertised on any TV show or network, and sold by Amazon.com it can be merchandised to viewers through TiVo."

I get it now. But I have to be honest if they keep it up in the upper corner of the screen and it helps with revenue I can put up with that a great deal easier then I can the interruptions that the CW puts on in the middle of a show, where they use almost half the screen.

And I have to admit there are times when I'll hear somebody talking about something that sounds interesting and then forget what the heck the name of the book or artist is.

Still since I can never remember my Amazon password I'll have to get up and go to my TiVo to Amazon password I'll have to get up and look it up in my password protector on my computer.:) So that would mean putting it on pause, which I probably wouldn't do.

Just more garbage we will have to deal with I suppose.You should read back a few posts to see TiVoStephen's description of the new advertising. Also, it won't be your Amazon password, but a 5-digit PIN code. You'll link your Amazon account (if you haven't already for Unbox) to your TiVo, then use a pin code for purchases(the same way Unbox on TiVo works today).

[RoyK]

Roy, I know you have your suspicions, but please give us the benefit of the doubt. We don't intend to do anything rude or disruptive and I believe our track record so far supports that position.

This is honestly a great feature and we want our customers to love it. You're watching Grey's Anatomy and at the end have an opportunity to get, say, the most recent season of DVDs or soundtrack at a great price from a leading e-tailer. It is in our best interest and our customer's best interest to make this compelling, not annoying.

Best regards,
Stephen

I see. You choose not to answer the question.

[kmill14]

I see. You choose not to answer the question.


Are you blind?

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.) More shows will come in the future.
* Each week we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* Each week we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

[RoyK]

Are you blind?

Not at all unless I missed the answer to my question:

Do you intend to display ANY prompt, icon, or sound over programming?


It requires a simple "yes" or "no".

[kmill14]

Not at all unless I missed the answer to my question:



It requires a simple "yes" or "no".

We have NO intention to interrupt shows with product purchase.

You just need to be bitter about something obviously.

[davezatz]

Stephen, the press release indicates purchase options during live viewing as does the NYTimes. How will that work? Or is that not accurate? :confused:

press release: "whether the viewer is watching live or recorded"

NYT: "even alongside product placements during live shows."

[MickeS]

It all depends on what you mean by "interrupt". Some think putting an ad on screen interrupts the show, others think interrupt means stopping the show and inserting the ad.

[RoyK]

Stephen, the press release indicates purchase options during live viewing as does the NYTimes. How will that work? Or is that not accurate? :confused:

press release: "whether the viewer is watching live or recorded"

NYT: "even alongside product placements during live shows."

Precisely. I don't see how that can be done without some sort of "Buy This" prompt which, if it is done, has the effect of further pimping the TiVo user out to advertisers and interrupting/distracting us from the programming.

[ZeoTiVo]

Are you blind?

actually RoyK asked would TiVo display anything on the screen during the actual show. TiVoStephen did not answer that directly, but did point out the use of the dialog at the end of the show and the use of the showcase to directly order products that are featured.

TiVo could still put a thumbs up or whatever on the screen during the show to link to those showcases and thus that is left open ended for someone wanting a complete answer.

For myself I hope this catches on, small upper corner thumbs up and all and advertisers flock to it. Then my sub prices go down and more people go for TiVo and TiVo goodness just keeps growing and growing.


I recall people getting all irate in the early days of the Internet about how ads on web sites ruined them and they would gladly pay for ad free web sites or stop using any site that had ads, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Well now ads are the basic business model of most web sites and that has actually improved both the content and presentation as web sites vie for people using that web site versus another one. can you imagine an Internet where everything was alacarte and you had to keep getting the credit card out just to do something like talk about TiVo. Ads can be annoying and generally are not something you would seek out on their own but a synergy of content paid for by ads presented while accessing that content can lead to some pretty useful and compelling things. Improved revenue just simply has that effect.

TV is no different and while we have all basked in a sub-culture that let 8us get the good stuff while avoiding the revenue generators, that sub-culture has simply grown up and is getting on the radar screens now. Learn to live with it or without it as your opinion dictates.

And yes your opinion being expressed is precisely what the web content here is about. :) But if you are dead set against ads in any form then back it up by moving on from TiVo. Clearly TiVo is embracing the commerce of advertising, as they should, since it is indeed a proven business model.

[rodalpho]

You guys can split hairs and discuss the meaning of the word "interrupt" all you like, but I take Stephen at his specific word that all this will entail is product purchasing options at the "are you sure you want to delete" screen and a new showcase or two. He knows what we were talking about.

Corner thumbs would certainly interrupt the program. They'd be intrusive.

Also Zeo, are you living in a dream world or what? No matter what advertising TiVo does, it certainly won't drop our subscription price. The subscription price will never go down.

[kmill14]

Zeo,

Did you miss the big red font post from Stephen? I think it was pretty clear in whether or not something would be put on the screen during an actual show.

[davezatz]

No matter what advertising TiVo does, it certainly won't drop our subscription price. The subscription price will never go down.

In general, I'd agree - but TiVo did get rid of all the crazy monthly plan options including those that were HIGHER than the current $12.95 for at a year commitment. They were like 16.95/mo or even higher if I recall correctly.

[kmill14]

Assuming that most shopping is done by women, how many women have actually responded to this new feature here or elsewhere in a negative manner? My guess is not many.

If at some point in time TiVo users can access the entire portfolio of Amazon products from their sofa, there will be quite a few happy shoppers out there, particularly the ones who don't want to stare at a (relatively) tiny screen in order to do so.


Throw in a few interactive/video-type ads for featured products, and you will have some who stop watching TV on their TiVo and spend all their time shopping.

[CuriousMark]

Not at all unless I missed the answer to my question:

It requires a simple "yes" or "no".
You want TiVo to promise that they will Never do this. It was made clear that what you ask is not in their current plans. The lack of answer to your question indicates to me that they may not be willing to rule it out in the future. I see places, like shopping channels, where doing this could actually improve the show. So I don't think it is fair to expect a yes or no at this time. TiVo will never say "never".

[scandia101]

I'm very excited about this new feature -- it's long been high on my wishlist of things that I want

Yeah, I'm excited, I pushed my own agenda. Nevermind what paying customers want.

[ZeoTiVo]

Corner thumbs would certainly interrupt the program. They'd be intrusive.
interrupt means the show is no longer playing or the audio is off. A thumb in the corner would not cause either thing to happen. Frankly if I was an advertiser I would not be interested unless something was on the screen for all the impluse buyers. Some accuse me of being a TiVo zealot but I can see how things will shake out for his feature. I am fine with thumbs that have a specific purchase function ....................... wait for it............................... wait..............wait


as long as I do not have to do anything different with my remote to watch the show and FF any interruptions of the actual show content.
Also Zeo, are you living in a dream world or what? No matter what advertising TiVo does, it certainly won't drop our subscription price. The subscription price will never go down.
The dichotomy of advertising and sub prices prevails. the lower the subscription price - the more subs you can sell. The more subs you have, the more you can charge for advertising. So the business model needs to be studied carefully in order to maximize revenue and lowering sub prices can indeed maximize revenue when advertising is generating real revenue.

I did not think the subs would be lowered out of kindness or some sense of fairness. ;)

[rodalpho]

True enough, the discounts for prepaid subscriptions were an overall price decrease. Actually I think the non-prepaid 2+ year commitments were an overall price drop too. At any rate, expecting advertising to subsidize lower prices is pretty darn naive.

So you believe that Stephen's "no ad interruptions" only applies to interstitial advertising right in the middle of programming? I suppose you could be right, although it seems pretty unlikely, but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he would deliberately mislead us. If it was bad news, he'd either not reply to this post at all at his superiors' behest or he'd lay it out as it truly is. He read the thread, and he knew what we were discussing. If you're right, then you're saying he's a scumbag, basically.

[BlackBetty]

I see. You choose not to answer the question.

give it a rest already.

[ZeoTiVo]

At any rate, expecting advertising to subsidize lower prices is pretty darn naive.

have you paid for a newspaper lately? Did you pay the 10$ it probably costs to put that newspaper in your hand?

Yes, right now TiVo does not even seperate out advertising revenue to its own line. This feature in itself may not be the one to break it out to its own line either but clearly it adds a new category to the internal spreadsheets of commision on sales generated. Clearly increasing the subscription numbers will increase advertising revenue.

PS TiVoStephen always makes sure his posts are factual and clear. He never intends to mislead and I greatly value his posts here. To me he clearly did not provide information on thumbs up during show content and I am sure TiVo is still debating back and forth on that one anyhow.

[rodalpho]

Hah, that would be a straw man. I never said that advertising subsidization doesn't occur elsewhere, just that adding advertising to a service doesn't drop prices. For examples, look at cable TV and videogames.

[yunlin12]

Yeah, I'm excited, I pushed my own agenda. Nevermind what paying customers want.

:down:

so now we are mad and going after TivoStephen?

[RoyK]

give it a rest already.

No.

[gonzotek]

Err, let's all take a breath and, you know, actually get a bit of experience with the thing it is we're trying to discuss, before anyone gets any more personal about anything.

[CuriousMark]

Good idea. Hop on out to swivel search and take a look for yourselves.

[lrhorer]

Television shows are just not free in their first showing.
They aren't free, period. If they were, then there might be a bit more of an excuse for how utterly lousy the programming is.

It takes money to make them and DVRs are now making the advertisers curious as to what they will do about the ability to FF/skip over their ads.
Who cares? Advertising is not a right, or even a privilege. Neither is staying in business, especially at the expense (literally) of a captive public. If they cannot make a profit from consumers who want their product, then they should be bankrupt. (Of course in reality this is much of the problem. They coinsider their product to be advertising, not the TV programs and their customers are vendors, not consumers. The television programs themselves are to them nothing but a cost of doing business - to be minimized by any means possible. The TV viewer is nothing at all other than a Nielsen rating.)

Anyone truly feel entitled to see first run TV shows
Entitled? No. Revolted? Yes. Even if there were any significant amount of content worthy of the public's time - looking at the TV Guide that's a really huge "if" - it still doesn't entitle the networks to force the public to pay for their product whether they make use of the product or not, whether they want to make use of the product or not, and whether they consider the content for which they are forced to pay worth the amount they are paying. I for one am absolutely incensed at the fact I have to pay upwards of $10,000 a year for someone to produce Gray's Anatomy, Survivor, Days of Our Lives, and all the other drek. Let the people who actually do want to watch these things pay for them directly. Let the rest of us watch nothing we don't want and pay for nothing other than what we want.

I don't watch first run (or second run) TV shows, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of paying for that luxury for other people - and at highly exhorbitant rates.

I would rather see innovation of new advertising approaches
I would rather see the commercial networks shut down, period. Legalized larceny is still larceny, no matter how ubiquitous it might be.

versus shows going to unregulated "premium" channels which can set no-copy flags
That's a different matter, and a whole other discussion of great extent.

or else force no add skipping etc.. Sure there will be ways to setup your own recording system which gets around such flags and so forth, but it will just get harder to stay the step ahead and really not worth it to most.
But it is worth shelling out nearly 1/3 of one's non-discretionary income? To quote the judge played by Spencer Tracy in Judgement at Nuremberg, "You are going to have to explain that to me very, very carefuly".

And as a Capitalist leaning member of our society I think commerce is generally a good thing.
Most people might consider my philosophy to be nearly rabidly Capitalist, and I think free commerce is a terrific thing, but commercial advertising is much more nearly Communist than Capitalist. Indeed, to most intents and purposes the main thing which prevents commercail advertising from being Communistic is the media are not elements of the state government. Or at least hypothetically they are not supposed to be. The reality is somewhat less than the ideal in that respect. In any case, free commerce absolutely requires that the consumer be able to choose for which goods and services
they wish to pay, and to be able to refuse entirely to pay for goods and services they consider for whatever reason to be not worth the cash. Commercial advertising forces the consumer to pay no matter what.

I plan on my opt-in/opt-out to be by shows I watch or not watch. :)
By that statement, I take it there are indeed shows you do not watch (a supercillious statement, I know, since no one can physically watch every program), so why are you content to pay for all those which you do not watch?

[pomerlp]

You should read back a few posts to see TiVoStephen's description of the new advertising. Also, it won't be your Amazon password, but a 5-digit PIN code. You'll link your Amazon account (if you haven't already for Unbox) to your TiVo, then use a pin code for purchases(the same way Unbox on TiVo works today).

He posted as I was writing. I didn't see it until I came back in.

Thanks TiVoStephen for clearing things up. Its unfortunate that there seems to be one individual who has nothing else better to do then complain. We appreciate the fact that you took the time and trouble to clear this matter up.

DNFTT

[ZeoTiVo]

Hah, that would be a straw man. I never said that advertising subsidization doesn't occur elsewhere, just that adding advertising to a service doesn't drop prices. For examples, look at cable TV and videogames.

cable TV providers can only get some local advertising revenue and have a large infrastructure to support. I am sure if they got the millions of dollars in revenue from the ads the shows get directly then they would lower prices enough to get the DBS users. once they had all the viewers then maximizing revenue would not be about lowering costs to get more viewers.

Videogames? the only ad I have seen in a videogame is the flyer for more videogames. Also on the consle there is advertising but that is to sell more videogames as well. The revenue from those ads is generating by selling the games not by running the ad and counting viewers of it.

[lrhorer]

I recall people getting all irate in the early days of the Internet about how ads on web sites ruined them and they would gladly pay for ad free web sites or stop using any site that had ads, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I make no use of any site which has advertising unless it is a retail vendor website - which is a very different thing. I have no problem at all with Newegg, Sears, Brake Check, Joe's Bait shop and Food emporium, etc having their own website whose entire purpose is to sell goods and services.

Well now ads are the basic business model of most web sites and that has actually improved both the content and presentation
I have seen no improvement in content of websites in general, and mostly only superficial improvements in presentation. There are some exceptions, of course, but frankly off the top of my head I can't think of any at the moment.

can you imagine an Internet where everything was alacarte and you had to keep getting the credit card out just to do something like talk about TiVo.
Free discussion fora long predate the prevalence of the internet, or indeed even its existence.

Ads can be annoying and generally are not something you would seek out on their own
'Completely untrue. Other than for business purposes, my principal use of the internet is retail vendor sites which of course consist of nothing but 100% advertising. In case you hadn't noticed, television channels like QVC are quite popular. So are infomercials. You act as if you've never heard of Amazon.com or e-bay.

but a synergy of content paid for by ads presented while accessing that content can lead to some pretty useful and compelling things. Improved revenue just simply has that effect.
Uh-huh. So why have television seasons gone from 26 episodes to 22? Why has the content switched in significant measure from more expensive scripted
drama and comedy employing professional actors and writers to far less expensive non-scripted shows employing few or no actors at all?

TV is no different and while we have all basked in a sub-culture that let 8us get the good stuff
What good stuff? I'm very hard pressed to think of very much at all.

while avoiding the revenue generators
Nonsense! Ads do not generate the revenue for the programs. Vendor sales do. Ads only generate revenue for the ads. To put it another way, the networks don't sell TV programs. They sell ads. The consumer doesn't pay for TV programs, they pay for the vendor to buy ads.

And yes your opinion being expressed is precisely what the web content here is about. :) But if you are dead set against ads in any form then back it up by moving on from TiVo.
The problem is, if Tivo switches to getting most of their revenue from ads rather than subscriptions and hardware sales, then that action has almost no effect whatsoever on how much he has to pay for TiVo service. Even worse is the fact it doesn't reduce TiVo's revenue very much, so it has a much more muted incentive to imbue that servive with quality.

Clearly TiVo is embracing the commerce of advertising, as they should, since it is indeed a proven business model.
Theft has always been the most profitable business model, and always will be. That in no way means the public is required to or should tolerate it.

[pomerlp]

Theft has always been the most profitable business model, and always will be. That in no way means the public is required to or should tolerate it.

Here here! So we should also stop watching sports because there is advertising all over the place. Why I even see on the beach volleyball some of the girls have tattoos like NIKE on their shoulders.

Hey, you know they even have advertisements here in the TiVo Forum! Of course for a nominal fee you won't get those.:rolleyes:

[ZeoTiVo]

Who cares? Advertising is not a right, or even a privilege. WTF?
Entitled? No. Revolted? Yes. Even if there were any significant amount of content worthy of the public's time - looking at the TV Guide that's a really huge "if" why do you even own a TV or a TiVo?
By that statement, I take it there are indeed shows you do not watch (a supercillious statement, I know, since no one can physically watch every program), so why are you content to pay for all those which you do not watch? umm - I pay 45$ for cable. at 1.99 a show my family likes to watch then that is 23 shows a month. CAble in itself is a much better deal for me than paying per show. Heck I will not even pay individually to rent a movie but use NetFlix. Sure you say that cost is just born out elsewhere in other products I buy that do the advertising, but if they did not advertise then they would have to raise the price anyhow in order to make up for lower volume of sales.
Plus if a product is from such a poorly run company that ads amount to any truly significnat % of the cost to me - I am most likely buying a lower priced item from someone else. I have very little brand loyalty and look instead at value of the purchase.

anyhow, ads are not going away and shows will depend on advertising for quite some time to come. Even some indie show on the web, watch it make the jump to a broad audience and watch it start making money from sponsors or selling ads.

[lrhorer]

Also Zeo, are you living in a dream world or what? No matter what advertising TiVo does, it certainly won't drop our subscription price. The subscription price will never go down.
You might consider scaling back on the superlatives a bit. "Never" is a very long time, and "certainly" doesn't leave much room for deviation. I'll agree it's not very likely, but stanger things have happened.

The main point, however, is that it is far LESS desirable to have lower up front costs offset by higher costs in the back end than to just pay up front. I avoid getting anyhing in my back end. :-)

[RoyK]

He posted as I was writing. I didn't see it until I came back in.

Thanks TiVoStephen for clearing things up. Its unfortunate that there seems to be one individual who has nothing else better to do then complain. We appreciate the fact that you took the time and trouble to clear this matter up.

DNFTT

It will be cleared up when I get the answer to the simple question I asked. Will there or will there not be any prompt/icon/sound displayed over programming?

[Einselen]

It will be cleared up when I get the answer to the simple question I asked. Will there or will there not be any prompt/icon/sound displayed over programming?

If you provide your TSN(s) I am sure we can setup your TiVos to make sure that you will get a huge banner over programming :D

[lrhorer]

Here here! So we should also stop watching sports because there is advertising all over the place.

No, you should PAY for it and stop abetting the theft from me to subsidize your desires. I'm sorry if that offends you, but you have no right to force me to pay for your viewing habits. I'll gladly pay for mine - indeed I already do - and you can pay for yours.

Why I even see on the beach volleyball some of the girls have tattoos like NIKE on their shoulders.
I am not responsible for the actions of idiots, whether at the beach or otherwise. In this case, however, it is not a paid advertisement - or at leat I seriously doubt it - so it does not qualify. I have no problem with free advertising. I do have a problem when the car I purchase costs an extra $8000 because you want to watch some people playng a game. If you want to fork up the $10,000 to $20,000 I have to pay a year for commercial advertising, then I'll happily drop the subject and call it even.

Hey, you know they even have advertisements here in the TiVo Forum! Of course for a nominal fee you won't get those.:rolleyes:
As with so many people, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The principal problem is not where the advertising exists, but the fact it exists at all. Although computers are becoming nearly ubiquitous, there are still several million people in America who do not own computers. Yet the fact the ads have been purchased by vendors means those millions of people are paying for us to use this forum, and that is neither fair nor acceptable. I don't know if you watch soap operas, but do you really want somewhere in the vacinity of $100 - $300 a year of your salary to go toward making soap operas? It does. If you have young children, then your household probably takes advantage of children's programming, but if not are you really happy spending a couple of C's a year for it, whether you want to or not?

[ZeoTiVo]

As with so many people, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The principal problem is not where the advertising exists, but the fact it exists at all.
first off - I did not say the thing about beach volleyball.
Second you said you would use no web site with advertising yet here you are.

You are getting confused in your discussions and saying things that are outright contradicted by your actions.

No point in even continuing the discussion.

PS - I highly doubt ads tack $8,000 onto each car unless it is Ferrari that is already priced WAY beyond what it costs to make anyhow and image is just as much a part of the product as an engine and wheels.

[ZeoTiVo]

, but do you really want somewhere in the vacinity of $100 - $300 a year of your salary to go toward making soap operas? It does.

wow, it is a wonder I have any money left to actually buy anything :rolleyes:

seriously, get some data to back up these ridiculous numbers.

[pomerlp]

first off - I did not say the thing about beach volleyball.
Second you said you would use no web site with advertising yet here you are.




Irhore, if your going to quote somebody quote the correct person. I'm the one who said volleyball. And as Zeo and I both pointed out they have advertisements here.

And I hate to tell you this but not only is it on sports but when you go to the movies, that can of Coke you can see so plainly is that way for a reason. So is that Mercedes you can so clearly identify. All more ads. And all at your expense.

So therefore IMHO you should not watch movies, television, or sports. You shouldn't go into forums because most have advertisements. So just use the internet for email.

Wait. Don't do that either. You will get junk email from people who will sell you all kinds of interesting products.:D

I'd say read a book but sometimes they put a chapter of the next book in there and you may end up reading that. That's another enticement to get you to buy something!

Magazines? Nope, ads there as well. Go for a drive? Billboards everywhere!

Maybe you can find an open cave somewhere in the middle of nowheres. Be a hermit. Then you can avoid all this awful "theft" of your money.:D

[lrhorer]

WTF?
I beg your pardon? Do you for some reason think advertising is a right? Please show me in the U.S. Constitution where it says "Congress shall make no law abridging the right of corporations to advertise".

why do you even own a TV or a TiVo?
To watch what I want, mostly movies, but also PBS and a very small handful of non-network channels. A couple even have advertising, but my choice has very little to do with the presence or absence of advertising. The fact you are asking the question strongly suggests you fail to see the point, however. My watching or not watching add-ridden content has absolutely no impact on the cost of that content to me. Indeed, even if I didn't own a TV at all, I still am forced to pay for all those ads, and that is unacceptable.


umm - I pay 45$ for cable. at 1.99 a show my family likes to watch then that is 23 shows a month.
No, depending on the size of your family and your spending habits, you probably pay between $500 and $3000 a month for all the shows with advertising, whether you watch any of them or not, or in fact even if your CATV company doesn't carry them. People need to wake up. They are picking our pockets, and we are watching them do it and smiling when they do it.

CAble in itself is a much better deal for me than paying per show.
Pay-per-view is only 1 alternative to commmercial advertising. Indee, I myself never purchase pay-per-view. This not due to any philpsophical objection, as I think it's a great idea for those who like it.

Heck I will not even pay individually to rent a movie but use NetFlix.
Which is another alternative. So are movie channels, non-profit organization of the breoadcast corporation (PBS), pay channels, etc.

Sure you say that cost is just born out elsewhere in other products I buy that do the advertising, but if they did not advertise then they would have to raise the price anyhow in order to make up for lower volume of sales.
This is what Madison Avenue would have people believe, but in most cases it is false. It's true there are some items which would never sell at all without media based advertisements, but these items are in the minority. It is of course true that any single company can increase their sales by advertising. In most cases this merely reflects the fact the ad increases the company's market share. It does not increase the overall size of the market, at least not in proportion to the amount spent on advertising. If one vendor loses their ad vectors, then their revenue will decline over time. If every vendor loses their ad vectors, then the revenues willl remain fairly fixed, certainly in comparison to the advertisign spend, and in fact all profits will more than likely increase due to lower advertising spend for nearly the same revenue.

Plus if a product is from such a poorly run company that ads amount to any truly significnat % of the cost to me - I am most likely buying a lower priced item from someone else. I have very little brand loyalty and look instead at value of the purchase.
It is a simple fact that approximately 1/3 of the retail cost of the average consumer item is advertising. Note this cost is not just from a single company, either. The engineering firm advertises. The manufacturing firm advertises. The packaging firm advertises. The brokerage firm advertises. The shipping firm advertises. The gasoline producer advertisers. The retail outlet advertises. Heck, even the ad firm advertises. Switching to another brand only switches a portion of the advertising dollar.

anyhow, ads are not going away and shows will depend on advertising for quite some time to come.
Things cetainly will not change as long as people are content (actually, mostly unaware more than content) to be ripped off continuously.

Even some indie show on the web, watch it make the jump to a broad audience and watch it start making money from sponsors or selling ads.
No one said it wasn't an effective ploy to increase revenue throug legalized theft. As I already poited out, theft always has and always will be the most effective means of generating revenue. When the means of theft is protexcted against legal action, the reasons for not stealing are almost non-existent. The increasingly widespread use of commercial advertising in the last 50 years is one example of this fact.

[tevoisseur]

I'd like to know how exactly this will benefit me, the consumer. Will I get a discount by purchasing items through my Tivo? Why would I want to do this as opposed to using my PC?

Why did I get this 'feature' as opposed to something that would improve my ability to use my Tivo?

Schedule across Tivos.
Space meter.
Buffer preference.

The list goes on and so I question is this a 'feature' or not.


With that out of the way, here's what you'll see with the new feature launching today.

* For Burn Notice, Oprah's Book Club, and a few other shows, at the conclusion of the show you'll see a message in the delete dialog box allowing you to purchase related products. (These are similar to existing messages in the delete dialog box.) More shows will come in the future.
* Each week we'll create a showcase for upcoming talk shows allowing you to purchase related products.
* Each week we'll create a showcase about newly released books, DVDs and CDs.

The last two items you'll see next week.

I'm very excited about this new feature -- it's long been high on my wishlist of things that I want when I watch TV, and I'm glad we've released this new feature for our customers.

Any questions, please let me know!

Best regards,
Stephen

P.S. Globular, here's a few for you: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: grammar

[lrhorer]

have you paid for a newspaper lately?
Do you mean have I procured a newspaper lately? No, I haven't.

Did you pay the 10$ it probably costs to put that newspaper in your hand?
Yes, I did. So where is my newspaper? The point you seem to be missing is all that advertising is not free. I paid for that newspaper, all but $1 worth, and I'm not getting my money's worth.

[TiVoStephen]

Yeah, I'm excited, I pushed my own agenda. Nevermind what paying customers want.Heh, that's funny.

You misunderstood what I wrote -- I was just saying that I happened to like this feature and am glad it was released.

I'm in operations, not product marketing or biz dev -- the features I push for are all technical and behind the scenes, having to do with operational efficiency and reporting. I don't have any say in terms of what customer-facing features are released (although I can sometimes influence how they get released and when they get released).

In general, I act as a customer advocate, and make sure that our features are supportable, scalable, reliable, and measurable. My focus is 100% on video downloads and related features. The forum is a very important part of our understanding of the supportability of a feature, and issues raised here are taken very seriously.

"Never mind what paying customers want" is really off base.

Best,
Stephen

[tevoisseur]

What is the true benefit to the consumer? I'm just not seeing how this benefits us?

[TiVoStephen]

I'd like to know how exactly this will benefit me, the consumer. Will I get a discount by purchasing items through my Tivo? Why would I want to do this as opposed to using my PC?

Why did I get this 'feature' as opposed to something that would improve my ability to use my Tivo?

Schedule across Tivos.
Space meter.
Buffer preference.

The list goes on and so I question is this a 'feature' or not.We do not anticipate the possibility of special pricing and promotions exclusive to TiVo customers; the idea is to offer the same price as Amazon.com.

Pricing is not the main point of this feature. Suppose you love U2, and didn't know their new album was coming out. Or suppose you're watching your favorite show and didn't know they had a new soundtrack or DVD collection. From your couch, you now have the possibility of learning about new products and purchasing them with just a few clicks, without having to leave the couch to go to your PC. It saves you time and effort.

While I do feel like this new feature improves your ability to use your DVR, the list you bring up has nothing to do with this new feature. The folks who would work on such things (if our product team agreed they were features we intended to release) are in a different engineering team entirely.

It's almost never useful to ask "why did we get this instead of that" because features are not all apples to apples. Some features are oranges, some are nectarines, and some (like a space meter) are kettles of fish.

I believe I've mixed enough metaphors for one post.

Best,
Stephen

EDIT: Clarify pricing is the same on your DVR as on amazon.com

[tevoisseur]

Ok, fair enough. I really could care less about the space meter. But scheduling across Tivos now that would be cool.

I just can't imagine using this new feature, unless there were some sort of discount with it. However, like you say I might find out about a new album or something this way. I doubt that I would buy it through my Tivo. Then again you never know.

[lrhorer]

first off - I did not say the thing about beach volleyball.
'Sorry about that. Your tag was in the clipboard, and I neglected to overwrite it with the other one. I've fixed it.

Second you said you would use no web site with advertising yet here you are.
OK, so I misspoke. I use two. It's not really relevant to the main discussion, however, as the main point is I pay for it whether I use it or not. I alos maintian a website, BTW. It's not tremendous, and it's not the most visited site on the web, but I also do not expect others to pay for me to put it up and maintain it.

PS - I highly doubt ads tack $8,000 onto each car unless it is Ferrari that is already priced WAY beyond what it costs to make anyhow and image is just as much a part of the product as an engine and wheels.
No, actually, Ferrari spends far less per vehicle than GM, Toyota, Ford, etc. Primetime TV ads cost upwards of one million dollars for a single 30 second spot. Multiply $1,000,000 by the number of Ford adds you've seen while watching one of the broadcast networks. Then multiply that by 50 to cover the number of adds which were on when you weren't watching. The fact is, $8,000 is a conservative number unless you are purchaing one of the more economical lines of cars. The fact you and about 200 million others have not taken the time to research the matter and think it through, or just don't believe it for no particularly good reason is the main reason they get away with it. Please, research the matter. You'll find it is true. Then take the amount you paid for home / auto insurance, medical insurance, shipping packages, gasoline, groceries, auto repair, televisions, TiVos, storage rentals, MP3 players... you name it, and divide by three. That's roughly how much it cost you to produce all the newspapers, magazines, radio programs, and TV shows you don't get, plus the few you do.

[TiVoStephen]

You want TiVo to promise that they will Never do this. It was made clear that what you ask is not in their current plans. The lack of answer to your question indicates to me that they may not be willing to rule it out in the future. I see places, like shopping channels, where doing this could actually improve the show. So I don't think it is fair to expect a yes or no at this time. TiVo will never say "never".This.

But to repeat myself:

We don't intend to do anything rude or disruptive and I believe our track record so far supports that position.

[...]

It is in our best interest and our customers' best interest to make this compelling, not annoying.

[ZeoTiVo]

No, actually, Ferrari spends far less per vehicle than GM, Toyota, Ford, etc. Primetime TV ads cost upwards of one million dollars for a single 30 second spot. Ferrari also sells far less cars than any of those companies.

1 million dollars is close to Super bowl ad time. I am sure the ad buyers for car companies are far savier than that. sorry but a bunch more numbers you throw in a post do not even begin to back up your smoke.
Also to claim I pay for other shows means I but the products that advertise on them. I have to spend the money and again I buy for value and would not spend the money if i felt the value was not there. Have fun blowing your smoke, I am going out for some free fresh air.

[ZeoTiVo]

This.

But to repeat myself:

We don't intend to do anything rude or disruptive and I believe our track record so far supports that position.

[...]

It is in our best interest and our customer's best interest to make this compelling, not annoying.
A point I have made in the past as well TiVoStephen and I certainly feel and see that TiVo takes the UI experience very seriously.

Also in this thread I pointed out that ads are not revenue generator without numbers of people seeing/using them. It simply makes no business sense for TiVo to place ads in a manner that would lose subscribers.

[TiVoStephen]

Stephen, the press release indicates purchase options during live viewing as does the NYTimes. How will that work? Or is that not accurate? :confused:

press release: "whether the viewer is watching live or recorded"

NYT: "even alongside product placements during live shows."What that's getting at is that a commercial could be tagged to lead to a related purchase. Imagine an ad for the new Coldplay album that lets you buy it from Amazon with just a few clicks.

However, don't expect to see any commercials to be tagged here at launch at this time.

[Einselen]

:up: to Stephen for answering questions here. Looks like a fun feature that will provide to be useful. What I appreciate with Stephen and the rest of the TiVo crew is how much they do value the community here. Sure most companies "monitor" fan sites and forums, but TiVo actually has some of the higher ups POSTING here and helping us with new features and options plus they usually use us to gather feedback and improve the product.

[pomerlp]

Please, research the matter. You'll find it is true. Then take the amount you paid for home / auto insurance, medical insurance, shipping packages, gasoline, groceries, auto repair, televisions, TiVos, storage rentals, MP3 players... you name it, and divide by three. That's roughly how much it cost you to produce all the newspapers, magazines, radio programs, and TV shows you don't get, plus the few you do.

No thank you, I would prefer jumping in front of a Mac truck. I'll just take your word for it and move on.

[RoyK]

This.

I asked for no promises. I asked a simple yes or no question. I'm talking about the imediate future - the feature as outlined by TiVo's recent press release. What will I see when I watch over the next few weeks? Your hedging around and refusing to answer leads me to assume that you do indeed intend to overlay programming and you just hope the issue goes away. It won't.


But to repeat myself:

We don't intend to do anything rude or disruptive and I believe our track record so far supports that position.


I think you will agree that those terms are subjective. I, for one, find the current plethora of advertising displayed by your product blatant and distracting.

[...]

It is in our best interest and our customers' best interest to make this compelling, not annoying.

Anything that pops up over programming is and will be annoying.

[TiVoStephen]

One other point: Think of this an add-on to the existing advertising delivery methods that we've had for a while. Product purchase further enhances things like Showcases, program placement (that's what we call the related menu items in the delete dialog box), and the Thumbs Up tags on advertisements.

This will be no more invasive than the existing advertising products that you've seen already. We don't intend to put this new feature in any new locations.

Best,
Stephen

[dylanemcgregor]

We do anticipate the possibility of special pricing and promotions exclusive to TiVo customers, but that's not the main point of this feature. Suppose you love U2, and didn't know their new album was coming out. Or suppose you're watching your favorite show and didn't know they had a new soundtrack or DVD collection. From your couch, you now have the possibility of learning about new products and purchasing them with just a few clicks, without having to leave the couch to go to your PC. It saves you time and effort.

Hi Stephen,

I for one want you to know that I think this sounds like a really cool idea, and can see myself using it on a semi-regular basis. Just one question and a couple of suggestions/comments.

Will downloads of TV shows from Unbox have these also, or will they have to be recorded for the purchase options to show up?

Suggestions:
1) It would be really cool to have the option to just add an item to your Amazon cart for purchase later, rather than have to buy now. I'm thinking this because often I'm watching The Daily Show and will see a book that I'm not that interested in, but would love to get as a gift. I imagine having full access to your Amazon address book from the TiVo would make the interface a bit clunky, but a single line to either purchase and send to your default address, or save to your cart would be great.

2) It would be great to expand this to your Fandango partnership, so that after a guest on Conan pimps his new braindead summer action extravaganza, that I could go directly to find showtimes and purchase tickets. :)

Anyway, thanks for the clarifications on how this will work. I'm really lazy, so this seems like a great feature to me.

Now if you could just get to work on the order a Pizza app. :D

[RoyK]

One other point: Think of this an add-on to the existing advertising delivery methods that we've had for a while. Product purchase further enhances things like Showcases, program placement (that's what we call the related menu items in the delete dialog box), and the Thumbs Up tags on advertisements.

This will be no more invasive than the existing advertising products that you've seen already. We don't intend to put this new feature in any new locations.

Best,
Stephen

My comments and absolute distaste for TiVo's advertising schemes notwithstanding you are a class act Stephen. :up:

===========
Edit: and yes, I did notice that you still are not answering my question.

[ZeoTiVo]

One other point: Think of this an add-on to the existing advertising delivery methods that we've had for a while. Product purchase further enhances things like Showcases, program placement (that's what we call the related menu items in the delete dialog box), and the Thumbs Up tags on advertisements.

This will be no more invasive than the existing advertising products that you've seen already. We don't intend to put this new feature in any new locations.

Best,
Stephen
excellent that is indeed very clear and should answer RoyK now. No visual cues within actual shows as that does not occurr now.

I bolded TiVo's use of the word program placement though - I think that was confusing things. It sounds an awful lot like product placement which had me wondering if TiVo was going to have visual prompts within shows to coincide with product placement like the coke cups on American Idol..

[pomerlp]

My comments and absolute distaste for TiVo's advertising schemes notwithstanding you are a class act Stephen. :up:

===========
Edit: and yes, I did notice that you still are not answering my question.

Well, too bad he can't say the same for you. And he did answer your question.

[BlackBetty]

Well, too bad he can't say the same for you. And he did answer your question.
+1

[ZeoTiVo]

Edit: and yes, I did notice that you still are not answering my question.

now he did answer. Advertising will not be added anywhere new and there is currently no TiVo advertising overlaying the actual show so that will not happen.

You could be a class act and acknowledge that....or not.

[Lensman]

1) It would be really cool to have the option to just add an item to your Amazon cart for purchase later, rather than have to buy now. I'm thinking this because often I'm watching The Daily Show and will see a book that I'm not that interested in, but would love to get as a gift. I imagine having full access to your Amazon address book from the TiVo would make the interface a bit clunky, but a single line to either purchase and send to your default address, or save to your cart would be great.
I'd definitely second this. Your use case applies to me as well. In addition, I have a problem where my one-click settings are a bit iffy across the many places where it is used - the Amazon website, my Kindle, Amazon Unbox on Tivo, and now Amazon purchasing on Tivo.

Alternatively and I think this an issue I'll take up directly with Amazon is that they should allow me multiple one-click defaults for credit card and shipping address, depending on the one-click source.

[yunlin12]

now he did answer. Advertising will not be added anywhere new and there is currently no TiVo advertising overlaying the actual show so that will not happen.

You could be a class act and acknowledge that....or not.

+1

[yunlin12]

I brought it up in an earlier reply in this thread, but I thought I'd just ask you since you are being so nice to us here. Will we be able to access product reviews on Amazon? I really like the massive amount of info that Amazon's website can provide, and rely on Amazon's user reviews a lot when i shop online. Looking at David Zats' screen shot, it doesn't appear that it's available now, but wondering if that's in your plans.

Thanks again for being so helpful in this thread and in general.

[nrc]

Can I buy a pony?

[RoyK]

now he did answer. Advertising will not be added anywhere new and there is currently no TiVo advertising overlaying the actual show so that will not happen.

You could be a class act and acknowledge that....or not.

If no popups , thumbs-up prompts, or other such appear over programming in the coming weeks I will indeed acknowledge that. However if they do and are later rationalized as not being advertising but rather a service to the user then I will renew my diatribe with increased vigor and add deception to my argument.

As to comments by some others - at my age my skin is quite thick. I will debate issues I feel strongly about -- sometimes passionately -- but also I take pains to avoid making snide comments and casting aspersions toward others and I shrug off such comments made by others toward me or anyone else.

=======
Edit: Grammar

[pomerlp]

As to comments by some others - at my age my skin is quite thick. I will debate issues I feel strongly about -- sometimes passionately -- but also I also take pains to avoid making snide comments and casting aspersions toward others and I shrug off such comments made by others toward me or anyone else.

For that you get a +1. And a thumbs up.

[RoyK]

Hi Stephen,...
Suggestions:
1) It would be really cool to have the option to just add an item to your Amazon cart for purchase later, rather than have to buy now...

TiVo's press release says that you will be able to do that.
...
Upon selecting a product users will have the option to complete the purchase immediately or add it to their Amazon.com shopping cart for later checkout.
...


==============
Disclaimer:
This reply not to be interpreted as an endorsement of this new endeavor.;)

[dhoward]

Many of these feature mean nothing to me. I can watch You Tube on my PC. I don't care if Tivo has it. If I am going to shop, via the internet, I prefer using my computer to price compare and get reviews. Linking to Amazon is to restrictive especially without any price incentives. Streaming is not that important either, to me. I can wait for the download. I prefer cheaper rental fees like Redbox. I belong to Netflix mostly because of the rates. I cannot see spending $4, for UNBox and still have the restrictions the studios put on them. UNBox price point to me would be $1.00 for new releases. Netflix and REDBOX are better priced.

[kas25]

[QUOTE=dhoward;6508241]Many of these feature mean nothing to me. I can watch You Tube on my PC. /QUOTE]
I can watch tv shows on my pc as well but I prefer watching them on my widescreen plasma in my family room......on my couch.

[dylanemcgregor]

TiVo's press release says that you will be able to do that.
...


==============
Disclaimer:
This reply not to be interpreted as an endorsement of this new endeavor.;)

Thanks! Didn't read closely enough.

[ZeoTiVo]

Many of these feature mean nothing to me. I can watch You Tube on my PC. I don't care if Tivo has it.

. Streaming is not that important either, to me. I can wait for the download. I prefer cheaper rental fees like Redbox. I belong to Netflix mostly because of the rates.

Streaming is very important if we are to move beyond the restrictive license and fees on UNBOX. Streaming and DVD rental are the licenses that NETFLIX has. HD means H.264 format that the youtube streaming feature uses.
While YouTube is in itself an interesting diversion from/add-on to real content the more important aspect is that TiVo demonstrates it has a very solid streaming capability as it works to secure deals, hopefully with Netflix and maybe others like HuLu. Also HD download and streaming takes a step forward as H.264 is a very strong format to do that in.

Now back to the Amazon feature - RoyK noted that you can simply park items in your shopping cart. there is no forced buy only here. You see something interesting in the show or commercial - you park it in the cart and then later when ready to shop you can hit the PC and pull up the cart and do all the normal shopping stuff you do.

Amazon is obviously looking ahead to the day people use more than just a PC to access the Internet and are ready to be in the living room along with everything else.

[dhoward]

I to have a Plasma and and watch TV Shows on it. I do not consider You Tube to be equivalent to a TV Series. I have no desire to watch a TV show on my PC. The new features will obviously appeal to different age groups. So opinions will vary. I have been with Tivo almost since the beginning. Actually when Sony introduced the SVR2000 so I have seen the changes. Technology is constantly changing but all features are not for everyone. Lower rental cost, for movies, is more important to me then these particular features.

[ZeoTiVo]

I do not consider You Tube to be equivalent to a TV Series.
No one does, the appeal for some is for a different viewing experience. But to say YouTube is only to be viewed on a PC and TV is only to be viewed in the living room seems rather OCD to me.

[Globular]

P.S. Globular, here's a few for you: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Thank you Stephen ;)

FWIW, I think this is a good feature. I don't know how much (or if) I'll use it, but I like it conceptually.

Now when HD downloads come from Amazon, I'll promise to post some of my own exclams.

-Matt

[kmill14]

Stephen,

Can you tell us if there will be a time when we can access the entire catalog of listed Amazon items from our TiVo, or will it always be limited to DVDs, CDs and books related to certain shows?

I have no doubt that you couldn't tell us even if you knew, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Milhouse]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/07/saving_tv_advertising_the_tivo.html

A not very positive piece on the BBC website covering this feature - suspect there's an element of confusion/misunderstanding on the part of the BBC blogger (I can't bring myself to call her a journalist).

Personally I don't have any problems with this feature provided it's not intrusive, and it sounds like it's not. But then again I'm in the UK, so it's not really an issue anyway... :(

[RoyK]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/07/saving_tv_advertising_the_tivo.html

A not very positive piece on the BBC website covering this feature - suspect there's an element of confusion/misunderstanding on the part of the BBC blogger (I can't bring myself to call her a journalist).
...
(

The title on Engadget's comments was more clever...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/22/tivo-lets-users-buy-stuff-from-amazon-on-their-tv-all-three-qvc/#comments

[ZeoTiVo]

The title on Engadget's comments was more clever...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/22/tivo-lets-users-buy-stuff-from-amazon-on-their-tv-all-three-qvc/#comments

Sim @ Jul 22nd 2008 11:02AM
FYI, QVC did about $600 million in sales last year.

[yunlin12]

I'm not sure it's been asked yet. Does this need 9.4 software? If yes, when will S2 users be getting it?

[rodalpho]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/07/saving_tv_advertising_the_tivo.html

A not very positive piece on the BBC website covering this feature - suspect there's an element of confusion/misunderstanding on the part of the BBC blogger
It looks like the author believes that TiVo will be popping up "click thumbs up now to buy this shredder" when Dwight shreds documents on The Office. That's reasonable enough, since the press release and NYT article substantiate it. I believed it myself until Stephen said otherwise on these forums.

Anyway, I'm totally with her. I too lament how my beloved TiVo, bought to avoid ads, is becoming inundated with advertising. But for me at least they haven't yet crossed the line.

[yunlin12]

It looks like the author believes that TiVo will be popping up "click thumbs up now to buy this shredder" when Dwight shreds documents on The Office. That's reasonable enough, since the press release and NYT article substantiate it. I believed it myself until Stephen said otherwise on these forums.

Wish Tivo had released a few demo videos of how this thing works on YouTube, that would have saved themselves a lot of trouble trying to quell unsubstantiated rumors of pop up thumbs during a show.

[pomerlp]

Just when I thought maybe RoyK isn't such a bad guy and felt he had made some amends, what does he do? He goes over to the other thread on this subject in the same forum and starts up over there!

That's it, I've had it with this topic. And RoyK, there isn't a crying towel big enough in the world for you, is there?

[RoyK]

Just when I thought maybe RoyK isn't such a bad guy and felt he had made some amends, what does he do? He goes over to the other thread on this subject in the same forum and starts up over there!



Made amends? For what? My opinion?

I'll post when and where I please.

And if you read my post in the other thread it replied to another poster (with facts, not opinions BTW) and referred him here.


Geesh!

Oh, and goodbye.

[ZeoTiVo]

Made amends? For what? My opinion? And if you read my post in the other thread it replied to another poster (with facts, not opinions BTW) and referred him here.


Geesh!

it is your opinion that TiVoStephen did not answer your question. Your only fact was he never used the word yes or no. However we all know he said that this Amazon thing des not add any new form of advertising and thus there would not be ads overlaying the actual shows.

Your are behaving like a troll and all that does is weaken your argument to the point of foolishness.

[sooka]

Made amends? For what? My opinion?

I'll post when and where I please.

And if you read my post in the other thread it replied to another poster (with facts, not opinions BTW) and referred him here.


Geesh!

Oh, and goodbye.

Don't even bother with this person. He has been banned from this forum several times by the moderators for his rude and sarcastic remarks and keeps coming back under a new user ID with a new isp. The moderators will soon tag him.

Are you listening HOOKBILL?

[RoyK]

it is your opinion that TiVoStephen did not answer your question. Your only fact was he never used the word yes or no. However we all know he said that this Amazon thing des not add any new form of advertising and thus there would not be ads overlaying the actual shows.



Let me see if I understand you. You say that it is my opinion that he didn't answer my question which requested a yes or no answer based on the fact that he didn't say yes or no?

Yep

Your are behaving like a troll and all that does is weaken your argument to the point of foolishness.

That's beneath you, Zeo.

[BlackBetty]

You are behaving like a troll and all that does is weaken your argument to the point of foolishness.

+1

[windracer]

I'm very excited about this new feature -- it's long been high on my wishlist of things that I want when I watch TV, and I'm glad we've released this new feature for our customers.
So, TiVoStephen, were you the mystery "TiVo guy" guest in the audience of Cranky Geeks #126 that kept getting hit by Dvorak's cards? There was a tiny discussion of the Amazon feature (like how it would require a code (I'm guessing a PIN like Unbox purchases)) and a little about the implementation so I figure it was probably you.

[BlackBetty]

I am very excited to see what they can do with this new feature. Think about those morning shows or talk shows when they display and talk about the latest and greatest tech products. There could be a little buy it now tivo icon at the bottom right corner of the screen. You press the thumbs up button and it takes you to a amazon screen where you can buy the product that they are currently talking about. You make the purchase and the program that you were watching fires back up at the same spot you left off.

This is very exciting.

[RoyK]

... However we all know he said that this Amazon thing des not add any new form of advertising and thus there would not be ads overlaying the actual shows.

Your are behaving like a troll and all that does is weaken your argument to the point of foolishness.


Your are behaving like a troll and all that does is weaken your argument to the point of foolishness.
+1

...There could be a little buy it now tivo icon at the bottom right corner of the screen. You press the thumbs up button and it takes you to a amazon screen where you can buy the product that they are currently talking about. You make the purchase and the program that you were watching fires back up at the same spot you left off.

This is very exciting.

Unbelievable.

[kmill14]

RoyK, are you always this bitter?

How has your viewing experience changed from a week ago to today?

[ZeoTiVo]

Let me see if I understand you. You say that it is my opinion that he didn't answer my question which requested a yes or no answer based on the fact that he didn't say yes or no?

Yep

That's beneath you, Zeo.
your opinion is that the question required a yes or no. TiVoStephen gave his best answer, since (As Samo points out) TiVoStephen is not sitting with the board and making final decisions.

PS - note i said you are acting like a troll. We all know you have a long history on the board and this is something you genuinely do not like. You are not breaking rules or just trying to start a flame fest. You are however using tactics to post your dislike of this new feature that truly undermines your message. That is my perception of it, anyway. Note that I was with you on not having your question answered until TivoStephen said One other point: Think of this an add-on to the existing advertising delivery methods that we've had for a while. Product purchase further enhances things like Showcases, program placement (that's what we call the related menu items in the delete dialog box), and the Thumbs Up tags on advertisements.

This will be no more invasive than the existing advertising products that you've seen already. We don't intend to put this new feature in any new locations.

Best,
Stephen

[TiVoStephen]

So, TiVoStephen, were you the mystery "TiVo guy" guest in the audience of Cranky Geeks #126 that kept getting hit by Dvorak's cards? There was a tiny discussion of the Amazon feature (like how it would require a code (I'm guessing a PIN like Unbox purchases)) and a little about the implementation so I figure it was probably you.Nope -- not me. That was John T., who writes the weekly "Best of TiVo Downloads" posts that I put up here in the forum on his behalf.

[TiVoStephen]

I'm not sure it's been asked yet. Does this need 9.4 software? If yes, when will S2 users be getting it?Series2 users have it already! (9.4 not required.) Try it out under Universal Swivel Search.

Best,
Stephen

[ZeoTiVo]

Series2 users have it already! (9.4 not required.) Try it out under Universal Swivel Search.

Best,
Stephen

Find Programs & Downloads
- Universal Swivel Search
I have looked under USS on my 240 Series 2 and still not seeing it.

Is this a roll out tyoe of thing and not everyone has it yet?

[RoyK]

...
PS - note i said you are acting like a troll. ...
I'm not going to exchange cheap shots with you, Zeo.

[Gene S]

I am very excited to see what they can do with this new feature. Think about those morning shows or talk shows when they display and talk about the latest and greatest tech products. There could be a little buy it now tivo icon at the bottom right corner of the screen. You press the thumbs up button and it takes you to a amazon screen where you can buy the product that they are currently talking about. You make the purchase and the program that you were watching fires back up at the same spot you left off.

This is very exciting.

My ideal version. Your watching one of those shows, hit the "info" button, and there is another option on the right hand side of the info banner that will start these chain of events...
1) Pause what you are watching
2) Bring up another screen that has all the products that have been "tagged" for that show.
3) Click on the one you are interested in. From there you can get more info about it, or add it to your shopping cart.
4) When all done, the Tivo takes you back to what you were watching.

[pomerlp]

Made amends? For what? My opinion?

I'll post when and where I please.

And if you read my post in the other thread it replied to another poster (with facts, not opinions BTW) and referred him here.


Geesh!

Oh, and goodbye.

OK, maybe I was a bit rough with the crying towel thing but everyone else seems to get what TiVoStephen is saying but you.

There's no point really in trying to get you to understand. Your position is clear, you did not get a direct answer to your question. My point was why even bother posting in another thread when there is already one on the subject that you are quite involved in. It just looked like you were trying to take your "message" to another area where you might get more sympathy, because no one is with you on this thread. Thats what it looked like to me. And there is no need for another thread on this subject. You know that yet you still participated.

But post all you want, as you said that's your right.

[BlackBetty]

But post all you want, as you said that's your right.


This 6 page thread would be under 3 pages if Royk didn't post in it. Maybe he is just trying to pad his post count.

[RoyK]

....It just looked like you were trying to take your "message" to another area where you might get more sympathy, because no one is with you on this thread. Thats what it looked like to me. And there is no need for another thread on this subject. You know that yet you still participated...

As was pointed out in the other thread (not by me) you are not a moderator. They do a superb job in deciding what is/is not appropriate.

But post all you want, as you said that's your right.

Oh, gee. Thank you for your permission.:rolleyes:

[MickeS]

Anyway, I'm totally with her. I too lament how my beloved TiVo, bought to avoid ads, is becoming inundated with advertising. But for me at least they haven't yet crossed the line.

I bought it (partly) to avoid ads solely because the ads in TV shows waste my time on products I'm not interested in.

Seems like this will let me choose if I want to spend time on something I'm interested in.

Big difference.

[RoyK]

This 6 page thread would be under 3 pages if Royk didn't post in it. Maybe he is just trying to pad his post count.
I'm being accused of everything else. Might as well throw that in too.:D

[pomerlp]

As was pointed out in the other thread (not by me) you are not a moderator. They do a superb job in deciding what is/is not appropriate.

I didn't go to that thread after I made my statement and read yours. Yeah the mods do a super job. You have to wipe the brown off your nose.

Oh, gee. Thank you for your permission.:rolleyes:

Gee, I'm sorry that I tried to say that I was a bit harsh on you. Apparently my remark was appropriate after all.

What was it you said?

As to comments by some others - at my age my skin is quite thick. I will debate issues I feel strongly about -- sometimes passionately -- but also I take pains to avoid making snide comments and casting aspersions toward others and I shrug off such comments made by others toward me or anyone else.

So that's the way you shrug off someone who actually is trying to say he was a bit harsh on you? Sorry, your responses don't match up with that.

[TiVoStephen]

Find Programs & Downloads
- Universal Swivel Search
I have looked under USS on my 240 Series 2 and still not seeing it.

Is this a roll out tyoe of thing and not everyone has it yet?No, everyone with broadband has it. Search for a show in USS, select it, then see the "If You Like This..." menu item. Select "Related products at Amazon" and start buying!

[ZeoTiVo]

No, everyone with broadband has it. Search for a show in USS, select it, then see the "If You Like This..." menu item. Select "Related products at Amazon" and start buying!

Ok - I found it. Thanks.

That is about as far away from actual show content as you can get ;)

[BlackBetty]

Ok - I found it. Thanks.

That is about as far away from actual show content as you can get ;)

not far enough for RoyK :D

[NotVeryWitty]

give it a rest already.
This 6 page thread would be under 3 pages if Royk didn't post in it. Maybe he is just trying to pad his post count.
not far enough for RoyK :D
give it a rest already. :rolleyes:

[jayfest]

After hearing about the TiVo-Amazon deal in a few places, I wondered how to find out what it was like, but I couldn't figure it out from any of the TiVo menus. I had to come into this forum to find out! After reading through this thread, I realized that I when I went to delete a Daily Show yesterday after watching it, I did see a line offering to sell me the Daily Show DVD from Amazon, but it didn't register until I was in the forum that that was part of the connection. Now that is a level of intrusion that I personally have absolutely no problem living with!

Anybody who thinks they can avoid advertising should throw away their computer, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio and DVD player, but I think that TiVo has done a good job of keeping the ads reasonably out of the way. And there is constant evidence that they actually listen to the concerns and complaints of (what are probably) the crankiest viewers (i.e., the ones who get up off the couch and bitch in this forum) and even personally respond to some of them in the form of people like TiVo Stephen, who is Jackie-Robinson-like in his thick-skinned-ness. Most companies should be so responsive to their customers. I can think of many that aren't even close.

[berkshires]

This 6 page thread would be under 3 pages if Royk didn't post in it. Maybe he is just trying to pad his post count.

If Royk had not posted in this thread we would not have the precise info that TiVoStephen eventually revealed, just a general ambiguous impression of what this will be.

[Einselen]

Did the sky fall yet?

[samo]

If Royk had not posted in this thread we would not have the precise info that TiVoStephen eventually revealed, just a general ambiguous impression of what this will be.

True. Replies from small time TiVo shareholders who would proclaim how much they love TiVo ads would be a majority of the content in this thread if ROyK haven't posted his direct questions. Not that he got direct answers, but at least we got an idea of what TiVo plans are for immediate future.

[rw4x4van]

I've been a TiVo subscriber and enthusiast since early 2000. My AIM icon and windows login icons are the TiVo guy. I've convinced literally dozens of friends and coworkers to buy TiVos over the years.

If my TiVo starts popping up ads during actual programming and there's no way to opt out of this behavior, I will sell my TiVo and tell all my friends and coworkers to do the same. I'll shell out the cash for hauppauge ambarella boxes, multiple cable STBs, a HTPC, and sagetv or windows MCE. This is completely unacceptable to me.

As some have said in this thread, maybe we're overreacting. I sure hope so; if not, my decade-long love affair with TiVo is about to come to an unhappy end.


Like you I got more people into Tivo than I can count, but I agree wholeheartedly......I don't want to see any advertisement at ALL
I don't want to see any Best Buys, Brinks, or Dominoes,....period and Mercedes-Benz ...."What are they really thinking, do they really believe that Tivo is their mass target audience...........Duh!!!

I called today and asked if this advertising is going to be optional and they said "NO",... so I told him for the record, if it doesn't become an option for the advertising,... after 7 years,.... like we said as kids "color me gone".

I've already dumped my Tivo stock,...and I sure hope they wake up in time, 'cause they can't afford the share holders to bail.......

My interest in Tivo was to get rid of dealing with commercials, so for you folks that want it,.. great,.. call Tivo and tell them that you want to "opt-in" and the rest of us can "opt-out".....just give us a choice

[Langree]

call Tivo and tell them that you want to "opt-in" and the rest of us can "opt-out".....just give us a choice


As long as you pay more if you opt out.

[pdhenry]

A bump of a 6-month-old thread with a topic only distantly related to the therad topic, AND a stock price reference all in one go...

[rw4x4van]

A bump of a 6-month-old thread with a topic only distantly related to the therad topic, AND a stock price reference all in one go...


..........and a boost in your post count.:D

[ZeoTiVo]

A bump of a 6-month-old thread with a topic only distantly related to the thread topic, AND a stock price reference all in one go...

..........and a boost in your post count.:D

now with new and improved irrelevant reply.