Babylon 5, "Believers", S01E10, OAD 4/27/94 *spoilers*

[gchance]

Guide page: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/010.html

Sorry for the lateness of the post, guys. Got busy at work and got home late, now I'm going to bed, so no real comments from me on this one. I'll comment tomorrow.

Greg

[aintnosin]

Written by the same guy who "The Trouble with Tribbles" for the Original Star Trek, in case you didn't know.

[BeanMeScot]

What I wondered is what the parents saw that they instantly knew he had had surgery. Made me think they can actually see the soul, like an aurra.

[Fleegle]

What I wondered is what the parents saw that they instantly knew he had had surgery. Made me think they can actually see the soul, like an aurra.

They saw that he was suddenly breathing normally again. I suppose they may have attributed that fact to a miracle, but with they fight they had to stop the doctor from performing the surgery, it's not a big shock that they jumped to that conclusion.

This was quite the powerful episode. One of the better ones, I think, in Season 1.

[Mars Rocket]

OK. I like B5 so far, but I'm still not feeling the love for this show. I was thinking about it today and the only reason I can come up with is that it's not *fun* to imagine that it's real - it's more worrisome or stressful. I do like it, and I do look forward to watching every episode, but I'm not looking forward to it as much as I expected. Yes, I know it gets better, but for now it's just kind of annoying because of how much everybody else seems to love it. I have no idea how I would have felt if I were watching it back when it was first on, however. Maybe I would have loved it as well.

Anyway. This episode struck me as heavy-handed and predictable. The ethics involved aren't new - we face them now, on Earth, already. Do a Google search for "child medical treatment religious beliefs" and you'll find thousands of hits. You'd think the issue would be more clear (at least to the humans) 200 years from now. And one thing stuck me as really wrong: the lack of knowledge these people seem to have about the aliens they're interacting with is astonishing. That the doctor wouldn't (in the beginning) know about a religious proscription against surgery for a species *he's treating* is simply unbelievable, and the sheer idiocy of Doctor Franklin's subsequent actions is mind numbing. At least the kid died in the end - if this were Star Trek the doctor would have found a way to save him with non-invasive surgery.

The bit where the mother talks to the ambassadors made me feel like the writers are trying to beat me over the head with their message:
Narns: only get involved if it benefits them
Centauri: money grubbing
Vorlons: inscrutable (although I attribute this to bad command of the English language - they're *clearly* trying to communicate something to us - why not just come out and say it? Why cloak the mysterious message in parables and nonsense?)
Minbari: well, I'm not sure what I was supposed to learn about them from this ep.

Sincliar's quote to Franklin near the end: "There's no way you could have known what they would do". Yes, there is - ask them, or better yet do your damned research before plunging ahead with something they clearly don't want you to do. Hell, even *I* knew what the parents were going to do in the end, and I didn't have the benefit of the Encyclopedia Galactica to read up on them.

On the B plot - how did Ivanova really know that was a raider before she blew it up? Shouldn't she at least have asked it to identify itself?

Finally, all the candles at the end. Shouldn't open flame be prohibited in B5? It is essentially like a giant submarine. If not for the danger than simply because flames use up oxygen. They should have fire sensors everywhere.

On a side note, who paid to have B5 built, and why aren't they more interested in making sure it succeeds?

[Fleegle]

Vorlons: inscrutable (although I attribute this to bad command of the English language - they're *clearly* trying to communicate something to us - why not just come out and say it? Why cloak the mysterious message in parables and nonsense?)

Kosh was, in essence, saying that he was in exactly the same place as her child. Remember the pilot movie? He was saying "What has happened is in the past".

[BeanMeScot]

They saw that he was suddenly breathing normally again. I suppose they may have attributed that fact to a miracle, but with they fight they had to stop the doctor from performing the surgery, it's not a big shock that they jumped to that conclusion.

This was quite the powerful episode. One of the better ones, I think, in Season 1.

I don't think they jumped to a conclusion. I think any parent faced with that would have wanted desperately to believe that the child just got better. I am sure Franklin was counting on that. Kind of like "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". I think they could truly see some kind of change in the child so they knew for certain that he had been cut open. They had no doubt. They didn't even ask it as a question. They KNEW what had been done.

[Mars Rocket]

Kosh was, in essence, saying that he was in exactly the same place as her child. Remember the pilot movie? He was saying "What has happened is in the past".

I took it more to mean "there are big things in motion that you cannot control", but either way - why doesn't he just come out and say what he means? Why does he surround his meaning with parables and seeming nonsense? Surely the Vorlons have the technology to properly translate what they want to say.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I took it more to mean "there are big things in motion that you cannot control", but either way - why doesn't he just come out and say what he means? Why does he surround his meaning with parables and seeming nonsense? Surely the Vorlons have the technology to properly translate what they want to say.
I think the point is suppsoed to be that we are not intellectually capable of understanding what the Vorlons have to say.

Which is an admirable thing to attempt in TV sci-fi, where (as somebody pointed out in one of these threads) aliens are usually just funny-looking humans. But how do you verbalize a thought that we are incapable of understanding? That's a pretty serious writing challenge, and I think JMS & Co. did the best they reasonably could be expected to do.

[stellie93]

Anyway. This episode struck me as heavy-handed and predictable. Hell, even *I* knew what the parents were going to do in the end, and I didn't have the benefit of the Encyclopedia Galactica to read up on it



On a side note, who paid to have B5 built, and why aren't they more interested in making sure it succeeds?

I agree that there was obviously a strong chance they were going to harm the boy when they took him. I can't imagine you could run a station like that without respecting the beliefs of each culture. They need a prime directive. ;)

It seems weird to me too that so much is left up to Sinclair. Instead of fighting over who's going to run the place, it seems like no one wants to touch it. :confused:

This is a good show and I look forward to each ep, but it's not a great show IMO ...yet. Still holding out hope.

I realized listening to the intro, that Sinclair has a really good voice when you don't have to look at his smirky face. Patrick Stewart would improve this show considerably. :D

[danm628]

I think the point is suppsoed to be that we are not intellectually capable of understanding what the Vorlons have to say.

Who says the Vorlons want the other races to understand them. They may like being seen as inscrutable. Remember, Vorlon space is closed to all other races (stated in the Gathering).

When they choose to be the Vorlons are very easy to understand. Blowing up Deathwalker's ship was a very clear message.

Future spoiler: (It's tough remembering that most of the people haven't watched everything. Seeing later seasons colors the way you view actions in the earlier shows.)
Kosh can be very clear with the people (JS, LA) who are ready to hear him.
- Dan

[Sirius Black]

It seems weird to me too that so much is left up to Sinclair. Instead of fighting over who's going to run the place, it seems like no one wants to touch it. :confused:

Would you want to run the fifth version of a station where the previous stations met with either explosions or some other manner of unknown fates?

Sinclair is exactly where he is because of... I suppose I shouldn't say.

[Mars Rocket]

It feel weird talking about a show in the present tense when it's really years old, but...I could see it being a good running joke if the Vorlons were *always* spouting meaningless nonsense and *never* provided any useful part of the show. After a season or two of that they could have the Vorlons intervening at crucial moments and the humans just getting annoyed with them and ignoring them.

But I gather that's not the case here. Oh well. I'm looking forward to more. I'll let you all know when I start lovin' it.

On another note, I just read the notes for this episode and now I feel like I'm being too hard on it. I understand what JMS was trying to do and I'm picking at the details instead of just letting it wash over me. I think I'm also having a hard time watching a show from the early '90s with a 2008 TV mentality. I am definitely getting into it more as I watch each episode, however.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I am definitely getting into it more as I watch each episode, however.
That tends to be the case. It takes a while for the really good stuff to emerge, or rather for the viewer to realize it was there all along, just well-hidden at first.

[gchance]

I agree that there was obviously a strong chance they were going to harm the boy when they took him. I can't imagine you could run a station like that without respecting the beliefs of each culture. They need a prime directive. ;)

But see, that's part of the point here. In addition to telling the story, they're also developing Dr. Franklin a bit more. Cocky Franklin, Franklin who tells Garibaldi, "What medical school did you go to?" Franklin, the young, idealistic doctor who thinks he knows everything to the point of defying not only his orders, but someone else's religion, to do what he thinks is right. Franklin, who just learned the lesson of his career.

It feel weird talking about a show in the present tense when it's really years old, but...

Personally I don't have a problem with it at all. We have this tendency in our culture to not listen to old music (other than "hits"), not watch old movies, not read old books, not watch old TV shows. Seriously, your average person would find us "weird" for watching Babylon 5 in its entirety because it's an old TV show. It's a shame, too.

I could see it being a good running joke if the Vorlons were *always* spouting meaningless nonsense and *never* provided any useful part of the show. After a season or two of that they could have the Vorlons intervening at crucial moments and the humans just getting annoyed with them and ignoring them.

No, I think that's the Drazi. ;) Actually the Drazi do provide some useful stuff but overall they tend to be the joke race. Them and the Pak'ma'ra.

This is a good show and I look forward to each ep, but it's not a great show IMO ...yet. Still holding out hope.

But I gather that's not the case here. Oh well. I'm looking forward to more. I'll let you all know when I start lovin' it.

I predict this will come around, mmm... Friday. :)

Greg

[danm628]

It feel weird talking about a show in the present tense when it's really years old, but...I could see it being a good running joke if the Vorlons were *always* spouting meaningless nonsense and *never* provided any useful part of the show. After a season or two of that they could have the Vorlons intervening at crucial moments and the humans just getting annoyed with them and ignoring them.

Vorlons are scary when they aren't spouting meaningless nonsense. And even the meaningless nonsense isn't really meaningless.

The Pak'ma'ra are are close to being a joke. Except when they are amazingly beautiful.

Evil hint: Have you noticed that each season has a title? And there is an episode that matches the season title? Season one is Signs and Portents. Of course that could just be a coincidence. :D

- Dan

[danm628]

I predict this will come around, mmm... Friday. :)

That is when I started taping every episode in order to go through them again to catch the important stuff I missed the first time. Bought a BUNCH of tapes after that. TiVo makes it a lot easier.

- Dan

[gchance]

Evil hint: Have you noticed that each season has a title? And there is an episode that matches the season title? Season one is Signs and Portents. Of course that could just be a coincidence. :D

- Dan

You haven't learned how to be sneaky with hints yet, have you? :) Friday.

Greg

[danm628]

You haven't learned how to be sneaky with hints yet, have you? :) Friday.

Sometimes sneaky isn't the right approach. No one paid much attention when I said the Vorlons might not want to be understood.

I'm now watching Voices in the Wilderness. It's been a long time since I watched everything straight through. The little details I've forgotten are great. The fact that it was 14 years ago when I watched it the first time not so much...

- Dan

[JYoung]

OK. I like B5 so far, but I'm still not feeling the love for this show. I was thinking about it today and the only reason I can come up with is that it's not *fun* to imagine that it's real - it's more worrisome or stressful. I do like it, and I do look forward to watching every episode, but I'm not looking forward to it as much as I expected. Yes, I know it gets better, but for now it's just kind of annoying because of how much everybody else seems to love it. I have no idea how I would have felt if I were watching it back when it was first on, however. Maybe I would have loved it as well.


I didn't start loving Babylon 5 until the fourth episode of Season 2.
Like I said before, the first season's rocky.
But after you've seen the whole series, you can look at the first season with the benefit of hindsight.

And don't forget that the first dozen or episodes is mostly setting up the B5 Universe and characters.
The long term arc will start progressing in a few episodes.


Anyway. This episode struck me as heavy-handed and predictable. The ethics involved aren't new - we face them now, on Earth, already. Do a Google search for "child medical treatment religious beliefs" and you'll find thousands of hits. You'd think the issue would be more clear (at least to the humans) 200 years from now. And one thing stuck me as really wrong: the lack of knowledge these people seem to have about the aliens they're interacting with is astonishing. That the doctor wouldn't (in the beginning) know about a religious proscription against surgery for a species *he's treating* is simply unbelievable, and the sheer idiocy of Doctor Franklin's subsequent actions is mind numbing. At least the kid died in the end - if this were Star Trek the doctor would have found a way to save him with non-invasive surgery.
<snip>

Sincliar's quote to Franklin near the end: "There's no way you could have known what they would do". Yes, there is - ask them, or better yet do your damned research before plunging ahead with something they clearly don't want you to do. Hell, even *I* knew what the parents were going to do in the end, and I didn't have the benefit of the Encyclopedia Galactica to read up on them.


I know you've softened your stance a bit here and gchance chimed in but I wanted to address this.
You've recognized that back in 1994, stories like this weren't being told as often. When I first saw it in 1994, what the parents did was an absolute kick in the crotch.

But the thing is, Franklin totally blew this one.
He f**ked up royally and part me thought he deserved it for being so arrogant.
People screw up and showing that tends to make them more human.



On the B plot - how did Ivanova really know that was a raider before she blew it up? Shouldn't she at least have asked it to identify itself?


You missed the pirate flag painted on the wing. ;)

Actaully, I thought that it was weak that they really didn't show any of how Ivanova got away from the Raiders after she was outnumbered 14 to 1.
I know what JMS said but I think he's wrong there.



On a side note, who paid to have B5 built, and why aren't they more interested in making sure it succeeds?

Earthgov underwrites the majority of the cost of Babylon 5.
They may get some assistance from the Mimbari and the Centauri.


It seems weird to me too that so much is left up to Sinclair. Instead of fighting over who's going to run the place, it seems like no one wants to touch it. :confused:


Considering that Babylons 1, 2, and 3 were destroyed and Babylon 4 mysteriously vanished, can you blame some people for being skittish?
And Sinclair is the de facto military governor of the station.
Like the Old West Army forts.

[gchance]

Sometimes sneaky isn't the right approach. No one paid much attention when I said the Vorlons might not want to be understood.

Which to me is part of the fun. Yes, no one paid much attention, but as we progress I fully intend on judicious use of the quote command to quote previous threads! Like, what people thought about something and how those views have changed. It's going to be a lot of fun. At least, that's what I hope. :)

I'm now watching Voices in the Wilderness. It's been a long time since I watched everything straight through. The little details I've forgotten are great. The fact that it was 14 years ago when I watched it the first time not so much...

Having watched those recently, and I'll ask these same questions of everyone when we get there...

Where the heck was Zathras during Voices in the Wilderness Parts 1 & 2? If he's the caretaker for the Great Machine, shouldn't he have been floating around when the whole business of replacing the alien within the machine with Draal happened? I mean, here's this alien down there, dying, causing Epsilon 3's imminent destruction, and Zathras doesn't show up until Babylon Squared?

And Sinclair is the de facto military governor of the station.
Like the Old West Army forts.

You know that's a really good way to view Sinclair's position. He's like the mayor of a metropolis. There's 5 million humans and aliens, about the size of Los Angeles, only he's a military commander, not an elected official.

Greg

[Hunter Green]

The bit where the mother talks to the ambassadors made me feel like the writers are trying to beat me over the head with their message:
Oh, they are, they are. The unsubtle messages are important mostly because they all turn out to be wrong in some important way. "No one on Babylon 5 is exactly what they appear." I know this early in, it's a delicate line: if they keep hitting you too much with the cliches, the setup, you might not stick around long enough for the payoff that only became possible because of how hard they hit you with the cliches. But really, those cliches are all that most scifi shows have and we watch them anyway. Isn't it enough to have that, plus a few tantalizing hints that there's more going on behind it?

While we were watching this last night, my wife mused what would Dr. House have done. We concluded that Cuddy would have done the same as Sinclair, House would have done the same as Franklin, and it would have all taken about ten minutes, leaving them about fifty minutes to sit around with nothing to do. Except Franklin is changed, somewhat, by the humbling realization of his mistakes; House would have just sneered at how stupid the parents are, and gone on to the next case.

Of all the season one episodes I think this one is probably the hardest to see now as we saw it then. Today, the ending is almost rote, but when it first happened, it was a complete shock to virtually everyone who saw it. In Trek, there's no way in a million years (up to then) you'd have an ending like this. Really, in any show of the time. There were virtually no posts on the newsgroup at the time that weren't just stunned. Seems odd to say that now!

It might be pretentious to say that this episode (and B5 in general) helped change the terrain of TV to make it so we can actually see this ending coming, but certainly in the last 15 years, something did, and this was at least part of it. Which is good: it shows how important this episode is, even as it undermines its impact on today's audiences. The job this episode was needed for has been done now.

[danm628]

A quick reply to the spoiler question. Then we can drop it till everyone watches them. So if you haven't seen B5 before don't read this. It will come up again in a couple of weeks.


Where the heck was Zathras during Voices in the Wilderness Parts 1 & 2? If he's the caretaker for the Great Machine, shouldn't he have been floating around when the whole business of replacing the alien within the machine with Draal happened? I mean, here's this alien down there, dying, causing Epsilon 3's imminent destruction, and Zathras doesn't show up until Babylon Squared?


Maybe Zathras was asleep? (cold storage?) Or maybe the guardian keeps him under lock and key (wouldn't you?). Or had gone out for lunch? But there are multiple Zathras, so would they all be unavailable at the same time?

- Dan

[danm628]

It might be pretentious to say that this episode (and B5 in general) helped change the terrain of TV to make it so we can actually see this ending coming, but certainly in the last 15 years, something did, and this was at least part of it. Which is good: it shows how important this episode is, even as it undermines its impact on today's audiences. The job this episode was needed for has been done now.

I remember being shocked that a TV SF show had a bad ending. Lots of SF books have unhappy endings but TV SF had always had an up-beat ending. I was expecting either the parents would never figure it out, or accept it, or in the worst case the child would be ostracized and raised by others.

This episode pointed out that this wasn't Star Trek. The universe doesn't reset to the it's initial state and the end of each episode. Bad things happen. Good intentions don't always result in a good result.

And as you said, now this episode doesn't have the impact it once did. Which is a good thing. The impact caused TV to change which gives us better TV now.

- Dan

[DLiquid]

OK. I like B5 so far, but I'm still not feeling the love for this show.+1. Some episodes I even find myself zoning out and losing interest. I'm enjoying it, but it often fails to suck me in and really immerse me.

Minbari: well, I'm not sure what I was supposed to learn about them from this ep.That they are neutral?

Even though this episode was very predictable (I don't think I would have been shocked by that ending even in '94), I thought it was solid. It was a good character development ep for the doctor, and his acting was better than I've given him credit for.

I thought the Asimov was a cool ship. I was kind of pissed we didn't get to see Ivanova's battle with the raiders, but maybe the effects budget ran out.

[gchance]

A quick reply to the spoiler question. Then we can drop it till everyone watches them. So if you haven't seen B5 before don't read this. It will come up again in a couple of weeks.

I love it. :)

Greg

[dylking]

This episode had my most favorite Kosh quote of the series:

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

[J4yDubs]

But I gather that's not the case here. Oh well. I'm looking forward to more. I'll let you all know when I start lovin' it.

Second season was when I fell in love with it. First season was just so-so.

I hope it's not being hyped up to much though. I know people that have gone through all 5 seasons and never fell in love. It was just OK.

John

[BitbyBlit]

Add me to the list of people that were shocked by the ending when they originally saw it. Based on television at the time, I expected one of the following endings:

1. The doctor would somehow find a way to heal the boy without interfering with the family's beliefs.

2. The doctor would convince the parents of the error of their ways, and be able to perform the surgery.

3. Or, if the show was really bold, the doctor would do the operation against the parents' wishes, but in the end they would begrudgingly accept the boy's healing.

Even when Franklin was running down the hall, I expected him to stop the killing at the last minute.

I expected the "lesson" of the show to be either, "With enough ingenuity, one can deal with any hurdle" or "In the end, the 'right' beliefs triumphed over the 'wrong' beliefs." What the main characters believe is right is what is right in the context of the show, and they win because of this.

What I didn't expect was the story to not take sides, but instead allow each character to act according to his or her beliefs. This episode, I think, represents the essence of what makes Babylon 5 so good. The characters are allowed to develop according to their personalities instead of being bounded by artificial constraints placed by the writers' own biased views of how they ought to act. While we viewers might make judgements and take sides, the show itself presents opposing views without making a judgement that one side is right and the other wrong; it simply tells us the story, and lets us decide.

[BitbyBlit]

That the doctor wouldn't (in the beginning) know about a religious proscription against surgery for a species *he's treating* is simply unbelievable, and the sheer idiocy of Doctor Franklin's subsequent actions is mind numbing.

I don't think most doctors today are that familiar with all the possible religious beliefs of their patients, and that's only amongst humans. Also, given their beliefs it is not likely that many of them would have sought medical help outside of their own. These parents only did so because they were desperate. And the doctors were researching these people's beliefs, as demonstrated at the end, but the boy needed immediate treatment and couldn't wait until they were fully versed before doing anything.

Also, in Franklin's case, despite his lecture to his assistant at the beginning about respecting a patient's beliefs, he still didn't think them that important in the grand scheme of things. After this incident, however, he probably would make that a higher priority.

[BitbyBlit]

But how do you verbalize a thought that we are incapable of understanding? That's a pretty serious writing challenge, and I think JMS & Co. did the best they reasonably could be expected to do.

I agree. To quote Kosh, "Ah, you seek meaning. Then listen to the music, not the song." Words contain only a fraction of the meaning behind them. Perception, context, and experience play a far more important role in understanding. Think about how one would explain how a cell phone worked to the following people:

1. A physicist.
2. An average cell phone user.
3. A 6-year-old that had been raised without any exposure to technology.

The physicist could understand all of the physics behind the workings of a cell phone. The cell phone user, while not understanding the physics, would have had experience using a cell phone, and thus could be given a basic understanding using perhaps some analogy with something that the user was familiar with. To explain it to the 6-year-old, however, would require an explanation that would seem very mysterious.

Now, how does one write the dialogue for a character that has a deeper understanding of the universe than oneself? Obviously, being human, it was impossible for the writers to write something meaningful that no human could understand. However, the writers did have an understanding that the rest of us didn't, an understanding of where the story was going. Thus, they could write dialogue that had meaning when viewed in relation to the overall arc, but seemed meaningless to the viewers as well as the other characters when spoken in the context of an individual episode.

It was either that or hire a Vorlan writing consultant, and we all know how inscrutable they can be! :D

[busyba]

Vorlons: inscrutable (although I attribute this to bad command of the English language - they're *clearly* trying to communicate something to us - why not just come out and say it? Why cloak the mysterious message in parables and nonsense?)
Because.


:)

[gschrock]

Sincliar's quote to Franklin near the end: "There's no way you could have known what they would do". Yes, there is - ask them, or better yet do your damned research before plunging ahead with something they clearly don't want you to do. Hell, even *I* knew what the parents were going to do in the end, and I didn't have the benefit of the Encyclopedia Galactica to read up on them.

I do think this episode suffers some from age, because at the time, it was definitely different, and not what you would expect out of typical sci fi on tv. Nowadays, it probably is pretty predictable. (However, it is one of my favorites, it was really the first point in the show where you started to get the hint that maybe there's something a little different about this show than the rest of the shows on tv.

As for the doing the research before hand, I think you're missing something relatively important here. There really *isn't* an Encyclopedia Galactica. We're still new to this whole other races things, and just don't know much about them. Keep in mind, in just a recent episode, Franklin is doing scans to get baseline info for Minbari, and that's a race that we're relatively familiar with. That with a generous helping of ego, and I don't think he'd even consider that it might happen.

[Mars Rocket]

Franklin and the other doctor had an online reference that contained the information he should have had; he didn't read it until it was too late. Knowing the race was highly spiritual/religious, he should have read up first.

[JYoung]

Franklin and the other doctor had an online reference that contained the information he should have had; he didn't read it until it was too late. Knowing the race was highly spiritual/religious, he should have read up first.

Yes, he should have.
That's part of the reason I say Franklin royally f**cked up here.

[gchance]

Franklin and the other doctor had an online reference that contained the information he should have had; he didn't read it until it was too late. Knowing the race was highly spiritual/religious, he should have read up first.

Lesson of his career.

Greg

[busyba]

Lesson of his career.

Greg

And not even the last one. ;)

[gchance]

And not even the last one. ;)

What's the other one?

Don't get involved with a suspended animation woman?

or

Don't get involved with a woman with an incurable disease while on Walkabout?

or how about

Don't get involved with a woman who was the former leader of the Mars Resistance?

No, no, how about...

Don't pretend to be gay?

Gee, you're right. :p

Greg

[busyba]

I was thinking 'Never start a land war in Asia', but those are all good too. :D

[busyba]

No, no, how about...

Don't pretend to be gay?

:confused:

Ok, you need to refresh my memory on that one....

[Rob Helmerichs]

:confused:

Ok, you need to refresh my memory on that one....
When he married Stephen? On Mars?

[Craigbob]

When he married Stephen? On Mars?

Umm I think you were talking about his cover story with Marcus

[Craigbob]

Franklin and the other doctor had an online reference that contained the information he should have had; he didn't read it until it was too late. Knowing the race was highly spiritual/religious, he should have read up first.

Actually Dr. Hobbs was doing the research, but it came through too late. If he had waited till the research was done Shon would most likely have died. Besides we don't know exactly what the research showed. All he read was the entry on the Great egg and the Lamuda (traveling Robe). There might not have been a way of connecting the robe with consequences of the surgery.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Umm I think you were talking about his cover story with Marcus
That's right, I remember now. Stephen was just the one who enjoyed that marriage. :D

[danm628]

This episode had my most favorite Kosh quote of the series:

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

I occasionally use that in meetings at work. Mostly it confuses people. Which is part of the goal. A few understand it, and rarely someone knows where it comes from.

Though I also like the "Good" in a conversation in the 2nd (or 3rd? can't remember for sure) season. Which we can discuss more when we get there.

- Dan

[gchance]

Though I also like the "Good" in a conversation in the 2nd (or 3rd? can't remember for sure) season. Which we can discuss more when we get there.

- Dan

That's a good one, and the funny thing is in context or out of context it's still has the same impact. :)

Greg

[gschrock]

Actually Dr. Hobbs was doing the research, but it came through too late. If he had waited till the research was done Shon would most likely have died. Besides we don't know exactly what the research showed. All he read was the entry on the Great egg and the Lamuda (traveling Robe). There might not have been a way of connecting the robe with consequences of the surgery.

Ok, I made my original comment before I rewatched the episode, which is always a mistake, but I agree with this comment. Two things stand out to me in the scene where he figures it out: One, Dr Hobbs announces that she finally finished the research, so obviously they were trying to figure things out, but just didn't have enough time. The other is that what she was pointing out to him was what the significance of the traveling robe was, so we don't know that he had any way to connect that if he performed surgery that this would be the result. Unfortunately, we don't get to read the entry ourselves, so we'll never know :).

[busyba]

I occasionally use ["The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."] in meetings at work. Mostly it confuses people. Which is part of the goal. A few understand it [...]

Really?!

Of all the Koshisims, that one is pretty much the most clear in terms of its meaning.

[Hunter Green]

I just hope Dr. Hernandez at least updated the Wikipedia page on the Children of the Egg after the episode ended.

[danm628]

Really?!

Of all the Koshisims, that one is pretty much the most clear in terms of its meaning.

The world is full of very dense members of management. So any Vorlon saying is to much for them. How else can a finance person say "do more, spend less" and not realize the contradiction.

- Dan

[mrmike]

How else can a finance person say "do more, spend less" and not realize the contradiction.

"You do not yet understand. But you will."

[Mars Rocket]

Actually Dr. Hobbs was doing the research, but it came through too late. If he had waited till the research was done Shon would most likely have died. Besides we don't know exactly what the research showed. All he read was the entry on the Great egg and the Lamuda (traveling Robe). There might not have been a way of connecting the robe with consequences of the surgery.

There's no index? Surely they could have skipped over the dietary section and the part where it talks about social interactions.

You're a doctor. You have a patient from a wildly different culture. You have some kind of reference guide that has many words describing that culture. Surely there's something in there about how their religious beliefs intersect with human medical techniques.

[Craigbob]

There's no index? Surely they could have skipped over the dietary section and the part where it talks about social interactions.

You're a doctor. You have a patient from a wildly different culture. You have some kind of reference guide that has many words describing that culture. Surely there's something in there about how their religious beliefs intersect with human medical techniques.

Not necessarily. The people of the egg were not very well known by the other ambassadors, so they could be a more isolationist culture.

If it were a relatively unknown race, who knows where they had to search to get the information nor what was in it. Kinda like the book "Everything men know about women" that is all blank pages....

You are thinking of a ready built wikipedia that is current and up to date. I don't think that is feasible for every race.

[JYoung]

You are thinking of a ready built wikipedia that is current and up to date. I don't think that is feasible for every race.

Wikipedia died out during the Earth-Mimbari War.

[gchance]

Wikipedia died out during the Earth-Mimbari War.

What is this Earth-Mimbari War you speak of? Is the Mimbari a new race?

Greg

[busyba]

The world is full of very dense members of management. So any Vorlon saying is to much for them. How else can a finance person say "do more, spend less" and not realize the contradiction.

- Dan

"You do not yet understand. But you will."

You know, it's a little after B5's time, but I would have bust a gut if just for fun's sake, JMS arranged for a situation for Kosh to say "Work smarter, not harder." :D

[Jonathan_S]

Wikipedia died out during the Earth-Mimbari War.Nah, I'm sure it was when San Diego got nuked by terrorists.


See headline in 'Universe Today' from 2 episodes ago

[Rob Helmerichs]

You know, it's a little after B5's time, but I would have bust a gut if just for fun's sake, JMS arranged for a situation for Kosh to say "Work smarter, not harder." :D
But Kosh's sayings are cryptic, not vapid and dumb.

[danm628]

Nah, I'm sure it was when San Diego got nuked by terrorists.

Given the vitriol that Wikipedia causes, it may be them who nuked San Diego. :D

The Wikipedia servers are in Florida. So unless their aim was REALLY bad it probably wasn't them.

- Dan

[JYoung]

What is this Earth-Mimbari War you speak of? Is the Mimbari a new race?

Greg

Yes. They are the race of fat fingers. :p

[Jonathan_S]

Given the vitriol that Wikipedia causes, it may be them who nuked San Diego. :D

The Wikipedia servers are in Florida. So unless their aim was REALLY bad it probably wasn't them.

- DanSure, they may be in Florida now. But how about in 150 years*? Plenty of time to get a good hosting deal in San Diego. :)


*("The year is 2259" the nuking was "over 100 years ago", (2259-100)-2008=151)