Babylon 5 "The Gathering" PILOT, OAD 2-22-93 *spoilers*

[gchance]

Here we go, everyone.

"There is a hole... in your mind."

Lurker's Guide Entry: The Gathering (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/000.html)

I hate to say this, but I've always hated Michael O'Hare's acting in Babylon 5. He never seemed to emote enough, it was as if he's just reading his cue cards. A lot has been written over the years about this, that he was a Broadway actor (he played the Nicholson role on Broadway in A Few Good Men), that he wasn't used to the short amount of time with a TV series for rehearsals.

That said, overall it doesn't detract from the series as a whole for me, nor does it detract from The Gathering, the pilot episode for the series.

A bit of background, J. Michael Straczynski (or JMS for short) shopped Babylon 5 around for a very long time before it was finally picked up as a syndicated movie of the week. The movie also functioned as a pilot for a proposed 5-year TV series. After the movie aired, it would be another year before the series was greenlit.

As a result, many of the characters seen in the pilot are not in the series. Within the series itself there are good explanations for their absences, and I felt JMS did a good job with that.

This episode is mostly introduction of the 4 major races represented on the station: Narn, Centauri, Minbari, and Vorlon. Humans obviously don't need to be introduced in this movie because hey, we're human. :)

A lot of backstory is introduced here, which is what I was talking about before when I mentioned things important to the series. 10 years ago was the Earth/Minbari War. Earth wasn't doing well and was in a position to lose the war, when the Battle of the Line occurred. Commander Sinclair was involved in this battle, and at one point he blacked out. 24 hours later he awoke to find the Minbari had surrendered.

He has no memory of this 24-hour period and is extremely unsettled by that fact. It didn't help that the Minbari with the changeling net told him that he has a hole in his mind. This, of course, is dismissed as an old Minbari insult by Delenn, the Minbari ambassador.

In the meantime, there are other important points:

- In this universe, there are telepaths. All races have them but one: the Narn.
- The Vorlons are extremely secretive, to the point of willingness to let their ambassador die to keep something so basic as their appearance a secret.
- The Centauri were once a great civilization (think Roman Empire) but have since fallen from grace and are reduced to "selling trinkets", as Londo Mollari puts it
- As G'Kar puts it, the Minbari are the oldest and most powerful race
- Babylon 1-3 were destroyed, Babylon 4 vanished mysteriously.

Those are my thoughts at present. Well, I do have other thoughts, but it's hard to undo knowledge of the entire series, but I'm trying. :) Some of the things I'd comment on I'll wait until we start the weekly series.

Greg

[aintnosin]

I assume you were watching the "Director's Cut" (since that's the one that is available on DVD). If you get the chance to see the original, it is interesting to compare the two. Neither are perfect, but the DC is superior.

[JYoung]

The original is available on iTunes, complete with the original Stewart Copeland score.

[gchance]

I assume you were watching the "Director's Cut" (since that's the one that is available on DVD). If you get the chance to see the original, it is interesting to compare the two. Neither are perfect, but the DC is superior.

Nope, in fact the one I'm more familiar with is the DC so I made it a point to watch the original. I was streaming it at the time.

And yes, the differences are interesting, but in many (if not most) I prefer the original version. While by now the Christopher Franke score is more familiar and matches the rest of the series, I've always liked Stewart Copeland's rock-based one.

Also intact in the original version is the Kiki Stockhammer cameo. She's there in the DC, but you don't see her face. :P

Greg

[alyssa]

"nice shark, pretty shark"
I saw my 8 year old biting like Londo <grin>

This actually kept my son's interest for the first hour. Then he came back & asked the question ; "so what do the vorlons look like" <I grined>
"you'll see" I responded,
"you don't know!"
"yes I do"

I'm thinking he's nibbling on the hook



very dense with lots of back story- interesting Delenn make up

[Craigbob]

"nice shark, pretty shark"
I saw my 8 year old biting like Londo <grin>

This actually kept my son's interest for the first hour. Then he came back & asked the question ; "so what do the vorlons look like" <I grined>
"you'll see" I responded,
"you don't know!"
"yes I do"

I'm thinking he's nibbling on the hook



very dense with lots of back story- interesting Delenn make up

The original idea was for Delenn to start out as a male but Joe never liked the way the voice turned out and it would've been expensive.

But the Gathering does set up many things including one that does not get paid off until the 5th season.

[gchance]

The original idea was for Delenn to start out as a male but Joe never liked the way the voice turned out and it would've been expensive.

I always liked that idea, too. In fact when I first saw The Gathering it threw me for a loop because here was this female voice coming out of a person who looked male. Kudos to the makeup team, both Delenn and the Minbari with the changeling net looked male, or at least asexual.

The differences in the Delenn & G'Kar makeup between this and the series is interesting.

Another thing is how well I remember the first few viewings I had. It was the early days of the internet, but my habits weren't too different than they are now. There wasn't a DVR, and I didn't have a VCR at the time, but being in syndication the movie was played several times over the weekend. I was in IRC watching it live and commenting on it much like we are now.

I'd love to see those IRC logs, just to see what my thoughts then vs. now were. I do know that the first time I saw it, I made the mistake of having a lack of sleep and fell asleep about 10 minutes in, hehe. Sitting in my college cluster apartment, watching the movie on a TV sitting next to the computer monitor.

Later with the series my CSCI TA and I had become friends and would watch the series together. Good memories there.

Greg

[wmcbrine]

I hate to say this, but I've always hated Michael O'Hare's acting in Babylon 5.Hopefully they'll replace him eventually. Maybe they can get that guy from Tron?

http://www.illusiontv.com/features/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/tron_large_02.jpg

[bicker]

Hopefully they'll replace him eventually. Maybe they can get that guy from Tron?LOL.

[Craigbob]

Hopefully they'll replace him eventually. Maybe they can get that guy from Tron?

Did you know that Peter Jurassik was also in Tron? He played Ram the accounting program. No scenes with Tron however.:(

[stellie93]

I've never seen the series before, so I'm giving it a try. I'm downloading it from Hulu.com. They seem to have the whole first season.

Pretty good pilot. I'm still trying to sort out the different races. I like Delenn and the telepath.

Did I get it right? The 24 hour gap in Sinclair's memory was when the other race mysteriously gave up in a war they were winning big time? And no one knows why or what happened?

On the Lost thread someone once mentioned that Babylon 5 was like Lost in that it was all outlined for a 5 year run before they ever started, and they pretty much stayed with it. That makes it sound promising to me.

[bicker]

Did I get it right? The 24 hour gap in Sinclair's memory was when the other race mysteriously gave up in a war they were winning big time? And no one knows why or what happened?Correct.

[gchance]

Did you know that Peter Jurassik was also in Tron? He played Ram the accounting program. No scenes with Tron however.:(

He was Crom, and died in his one scene. Ram was the young kid who was helping Tron throughout the movie.

Greg

[BeanMeScot]

Just got done watching this. The overacting by almost all the major players was horrendous but the plot was interesting. I hope the acting gets better!

[gchance]

Just got done watching this. The overacting by almost all the major players was horrendous but the plot was interesting. I hope the acting gets better!

In the pilot, G'Kar almost sounds like Andreas Katsulas is overacting, but that's just G'Kar. He's an EXTREMELY melodramatic character, that's his personality. The same goes for Londo. Those two characters are the best part of B5, I think.

Greg

[BeanMeScot]

In the pilot, G'Kar almost sounds like Andreas Katsulas is overacting, but that's just G'Kar. He's an EXTREMELY melodramatic character, that's his personality. The same goes for Londo. Those two characters are the best part of B5, I think.

Greg

The worst offenders to me were Takashima, the commander, and the doctor. :D

[bicker]

And rest assured that the acting does get better. MUCH better. :) (Of course, that's almost always the case for any long-running series: The show, overall, gets better until its fourth year, typically, and then begins to decline.)

[Rob Helmerichs]

But most of the human characters are never first-rate acting, and some of them struggle in vain to be second-rate. Good acting is not a reason to watch this show, I'm afraid. Fortunately, there are many other reasons!

[BeanMeScot]

But most of the human characters are never first-rate acting, and some of them struggle in vain to be second-rate. Good acting is not a reason to watch this show, I'm afraid. Fortunately, there are many other reasons!

I watched and enjoyed Star Trek: TOS. Acting isn't first on the list. :o :D

[gchance]

But most of the human characters are never first-rate acting, and some of them struggle in vain to be second-rate. Good acting is not a reason to watch this show, I'm afraid. Fortunately, there are many other reasons!

Is good acting EVER the reason to watch a science fiction show? :)

Greg

[Craigbob]

And rest assured that the acting does get better. MUCH better. :) (Of course, that's almost always the case for any long-running series: The show, overall, gets better until its fourth year, typically, and then begins to decline.)


Ohh I have to disagree with you here. B5 gets stronger each season with the 4th being the most intense and best quality. Season 5 OTOH does suffer from a decline but for a couple of big off screen reasons that occurred between Seasons 4 & 5.

[Mars Rocket]

My brief initial thoughts:

The acting was bad, astonishingly bad in some cases (Takashima). I can deal with that. The overall story was good and I want to go on now. There were some technical faults (like the relatively tiny explosion near the end causing such a huge shift to the station, and the "blast" doors closing sequentially instead of all at once, allowing for Sinclair's escape), but they were just dumb - they didn't detract from the overall story.

I'll post more thoughts later if I think of anything else worth commenting on.

[bicker]

Ohh I have to disagree with you here.I'm waiting to read your disagreement. Nothing you said contradicted the message you replied to.

[gchance]

The acting was bad, astonishingly bad in some cases (Takashima).

What's interesting about Takashima (Tamlyn Tomita) is that I've seen the actress in a lot of things since then, and she's usually good in them. The problem could have been directorial (as with many actors when George Lucas directs them).

It could also have been that B5 was earlier in her career. But I do agree, her acting is pretty bad in this.

Greg

[BeanMeScot]

I went by Best Buy last night and bought the season DVDs since they had them for $19.99 each. I had my HD DVD $50 gift card and another Visa $20 card so I only paid about $35 for all of them. I have already decrypted season 1 and AutoGK is working on shrinking the first couple of discs. I should be able to watch the first real episode on the treadmill today.

[busyba]

1993? Now that's some bump! :eek:


:D

[Craigbob]

I'm waiting to read your disagreement. Nothing you said contradicted the message you replied to.

When you say that the series declined in quality in the 4th season. That is what I disagreed with.

[Rob Helmerichs]

When you say that the series declined in quality in the 4th season. That is what I disagreed with.
Much as I hate to agree with bicker :D, I have to here. After the resolution of the main plotline maybe 2/3 of the way through season four, I think things went pretty sharply downhill. The pacing was badly thrown off by the need to wrap some things up early and not start in on other things until after the renewal (i.e., in the fifth season), and I don't think the show ever fully recovered from that.

It was still pretty decent, and well worth watching, but not what it had been.

[danterner]

I just finished watching this on Hulu. This was my first real exposure to the series. I think I saw one episode of the series when it originally aired, but was turned off by the CG at the time. I've been meaning to give it a second try for YEARS, so I'm very glad that this B5 rewatch is starting. Ironically enough, the CG didn't really bother me this time around - it obviously isn't up to today's standards, but it wasn't so poor as to be totally distracting. And the practical effects are really quite good. It's the acting that I found most off-putting, but it sounds like that improves somewhat as the series goes on. Even if it doesn't, I'm really looking forward to seeing a cohesive story arc followed through to a proper conclusion.

[alyssa]

The CGI get a bit better as the series goes along, imo. Interestingly enough, according to my husband the CGI was done on Amiga computers using toasters (?). he was a little unclear on this part, but at the time was quite the name maker for the company who pioneered the technology.

Regarding the acting, yeah it is uneven but the dynamic between Lando & G'kar was there at the very beginning. Those two are amazing. It's been interesting watching it with my 8 year old- he loves the "Senators" ( I keep correcting him- ambassadors). I credit that too their acting ability's.

[bicker]

When you say that the series declined in quality in the 4th season. That is what I disagreed with.Uh, that isn't what I said. I said it got better until the fourth season, and then it started to decline.

Read what Rob said. The beginning of the fourth season was absolutely perfect. The last third, was almost perfect. Eh? :)

I think we should stop talking about what's going to be later in the series, and stick with just the episode we're up to, eh?

[gchance]

I went by Best Buy last night and bought the season DVDs since they had them for $19.99 each. I had my HD DVD $50 gift card and another Visa $20 card so I only paid about $35 for all of them. I have already decrypted season 1 and AutoGK is working on shrinking the first couple of discs. I should be able to watch the first real episode on the treadmill today.

WOO! You're committed now!

1993? Now that's some bump! :eek:
:D

It's not a bump. More like all the, "I can't believe nobody's posted a thread for this yet" thread that's 15 years late. It's forgiveable though, Tivo didn't exist in 1993. :)

Ironically enough, the CG didn't really bother me this time around - it obviously isn't up to today's standards, but it wasn't so poor as to be totally distracting. And the practical effects are really quite good.

One thing that people had a tough time dealing with is the fact that you can "tell" it's CGI. It's not that you can't tell that TNG (the main reference point at the time) used physical models, it's that people had seen those effects for so long, they just sort of forgot. The effects were obviously CGI because people hadn't seen them much before. I used to go round and round with people on this point. "You can tell it's CGI!" "You can tell the Enterprise is a model." "No you can't!" Heh.

The CGI get a bit better as the series goes along, imo. Interestingly enough, according to my husband the CGI was done on Amiga computers using toasters (?). he was a little unclear on this part, but at the time was quite the name maker for the company who pioneered the technology.

As a little reminder, I very recently watched all of S1, I just finished it up a few weeks ago. I was going to go straight into S2 but instead decided to start over again once I pulled everyone into the viewing project. Going from the end of S1 back to The Gathering, I can tell you that the improvement started to happen midway through the FIRST season.

One of the biggest reasons I watched B5 in the first place was its Amiga roots. It was done on software called Lightwave 3D, which at the time was only available with the Toaster. NewTek was the company that produced it, and at the time they weren't telling people that Lightwave didn't require the Toaster to run. They later sold it as a standalone product. Much of the advancement that happened in the Lightwave software was a direct result of Babylon 5. The lens flare that you see in this movie was a *GIANT* deal, CGI couldn't DO THAT back then. JMS demanded it and NewTek developed the technology specifically for B5.

Their spokesmodel was Kiki Stockhammer, who has a cameo in the original version of The Gathering. Another piece of trivia, one of the primary Toaster developers was Brad Carvey, brother of Dana Carvey. In many Wayne's World sketches on SNL, Dana wore NewTek shirts. :)

Regarding the acting, yeah it is uneven but the dynamic between Lando & G'kar was there at the very beginning.

One tiny correction: Londo. Lando is Han Solo's buddy.

I think we should stop talking about what's going to be later in the series, and stick with just the episode we're up to, eh?

It's hard not to, although so far in this particular thread there haven't been too many newbie questions. I'm hoping that as the arc develops people who until now have been unfamilair with the series will start discussing the same things we've been discussing for years.

Greg

[Mars Rocket]

My other thought in watching this was that the fashions and hairstyles all seemed like they came out of the mid-80s. I guess what goes around comes around, even if it takes 275 years.

[Rob Helmerichs]

My other thought in watching this was that the fashions and hairstyles all seemed like they came out of the mid-80s. I guess what goes around comes around, even if it takes 275 years.
Kind of reminds me of Forever Knight--Nick used to change his hairstyle frequently, so of course for the weekly flashbacks they were limited to time periods where he had the same hairstyle as the present. :D

[alyssa]

One tiny correction: Londo. Lando is Han Solo's buddy.
Greg


Ok, ok but gimme geek points for keying into the Amiga bit.
<jesh, this is gonna be some tough threads>
;)

[gchance]

My other thought in watching this was that the fashions and hairstyles all seemed like they came out of the mid-80s. I guess what goes around comes around, even if it takes 275 years.

Well, fashion does come and go. At least they didn't look like they were in the mid-90s.

Gotta love the new wave fashions of the 80s though.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/c3/Gathering1.jpg

Greg

[alyssa]

Nope, in fact the one I'm more familiar with is the DC so I made it a point to watch the original. I was streaming it at the time.

And yes, the differences are interesting, but in many (if not most) I prefer the original version. While by now the Christopher Franke score is more familiar and matches the rest of the series, I've always liked Stewart Copeland's rock-based one.

Also intact in the original version is the Kiki Stockhammer cameo. She's there in the DC, but you don't see her face. :P

Greg
got a chance to see the original with the copeland score. I have to say, I agree. I like it better then the DC/Franke version, better music. I kept thinking of Greg Edmonson music for firefly for some reason.

The G'Kar & Lita genetic material bit seemed funnier too.

[dylking]

I'm just getting around to watch this now...

one phrase REALLY struck me tonight.

"What better way to prop up a fading empire than to start a war?"

Unfortunately, I only have the TNT version on DVD. I have the original on Laserdisc, but since my player is broken at the moment, I'm 'stuck' with the special edition.

[gchance]

I'm just getting around to watch this now...

one phrase REALLY struck me tonight.

"What better way to prop up a fading empire than to start a war?"

Unfortunately, I only have the TNT version on DVD. I have the original on Laserdisc, but since my player is broken at the moment, I'm 'stuck' with the special edition.

You could always stream it from Hulu or Joost.

Greg

[JYoung]

I'm just getting around to watch this now...

one phrase REALLY struck me tonight.

"What better way to prop up a fading empire than to start a war?"

Unfortunately, I only have the TNT version on DVD. I have the original on Laserdisc, but since my player is broken at the moment, I'm 'stuck' with the special edition.

You could always stream it from Hulu or Joost.

Greg

Or buy it off of iTunes.

I haven't rewatched either version recently but I believe that I gave the original version of the Gathering a C- when it first aired.
It actually turned me off to the show in the first season and I missed the first 14 or so episodes of the First season when first aired.
I just happened to catch Signs and Portents and was drawn into it.

I give the the director's version a B.

[Church AV Guy]

No one has mentioned, or is it a spoiler, that no where else in the series do the Minbari power rings appear. It seems way to useful a device to just give up on, but that's it.

Speaking of acting, and trying to not give up anything of substance, in the later part of the series, the actor who plays Geribaldi pulls off some of the most amazing acting I have ever seen. No scratch, that, it is the best piece of acting I have ever seen.

This is an epic tale, and as such, there are places where things move, and places where they appear to not move. Some things worked well, others no so well, but as a whole, it is one of the best things ever done on television.

G'Kar's tummy growling still makes me laugh.

[gchance]

You didn't need the spoiler tags. :) Yeah those rings were cool, but I think JMS finally settled on

The expandable staff that Lennier has, and later Marcus Cole. It's more fun to see someone smack someone with a stick, hehe.

Greg

[Fleegle]

One thing that really stood out for me on B5: The Starfuries don't fly like fighter jets. That was something VERY refreshing to see them accelerate one way, spin 180 degree around and fire "behind" themselves. or spin 90 degrees and strafe. Some of the fighter tactics were really freaking cool.

How frequently are we watching the episodes? I'm in for this with you guys. I haven't watched B5 in a LONG time!

Oh, and one of the best episodes of the show was Dust to Dust. Incredible episode with some fine acting by Katsulas and Jurasik. It's the episode I used to bring my friend into the show and it's still one of her favorites.

[Craigbob]

One thing that really stood out for me on B5: The Starfuries don't fly like fighter jets. That was something VERY refreshing to see them accelerate one way, spin 180 degree around and fire "behind" themselves. or spin 90 degrees and strafe. Some of the fighter tactics were really freaking cool.

How frequently are we watching the episodes? I'm in for this with you guys. I haven't watched B5 in a LONG time!

Oh, and one of the best episodes of the show was Dust to Dust. Incredible episode with some fine acting by Katsulas and Jurasik. It's the episode I used to bring my friend into the show and it's still one of her favorites.

One of the things that JMS insisted on, is that the Starfuries had to obey the laws of physics. I seem to recall that NASA loved the design that they asked JMS if they could use it for future space construction vehicles. He said yes as long they were called Starfuries.

I'm bringing a friend into the shows also and we are about half way through S1. Next up for us is Voice in the Wilderness pts 1 and 2.

[gchance]

[QUOTE=Fleegle;How frequently are we watching the episodes? I'm in for this with you guys. I haven't watched B5 in a LONG time![/QUOTE]

I was going to do an episode every few days, but people here were saying they wouldn't be able to keep up. Right now we're going once a week (I'll be doing Midnight on the Firing Line on Friday) but the problem is if we only do once a week, it'll take over two years to complete the series.

Nobody responded to my suggestion of one DVD per week, once a week (watching 4 episodes over the course of the weekend). If you guys are willing to do that, it'd cut down dramatically how long it takes to cycle through the series.

Greg

[Fleegle]

I don't mind doing an episode a week. I know some people have a lot going on and watching 4 eps a week may be hard. Besides, it gives us time to delve into each ep a little. I just now noticed this thread...

As an aside, this show was teh first one I ever talked about online! It was my college's electronic forum that had access to Usenet. I met a guy locally who had access to press kits and saw a few things about the show about 6 months before it premiered. It's always been one of my favorites.

I'll have to go watch the pilot again and hopefully have something to contribute.

[Church AV Guy]

One thing about the 2 hour pilot, the scene at the very end, that really long zoom. Nothing one that scale had ever been done before, I was told.

I agree that the acting was bad, especially by Kosh. How wooden can you get?

[alyssa]

Speaking of acting, and trying to not give up anything of substance, in the later part of the series, the actor who plays Geribaldi pulls off some of the most amazing acting I have ever seen. No scratch, that, it is the best piece of acting I have ever seen.


umm...i guess acting is in the eye of the beholder. :D

Greg, I'm up for going a bit faster through the shows, perhaps two shows a week?

[gchance]

One thing about the 2 hour pilot, the scene at the very end, that really long zoom. Nothing one that scale had ever been done before, I was told.

The only thing to compare to at the time was Star Wars. Nothing on that scale had been done on TV. Towards the end there though they were battling DS9 for the biggest, baddest space battles. It was funny if you paid attention to it, hehe.

I agree that the acting was bad, especially by Kosh. How wooden can you get?

"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

Speaking of Kosh, I used to have a friend named Brad... Kosh. One time for his birthday I made him a card, on the front it said something like, "It's your birthday". Inside the cover it had a picture of Kosh that said, "Good".

Greg
Greg

[Mars Rocket]

Greg, I'm up for going a bit faster through the shows, perhaps two shows a week?

Now that most of my other shows are season finale-ing I'm up for 2/week now as well. Maybe more, but we'll have to see.

[gchance]

Well then if nobody minds, we can do two episodes this weekend.

Greg

[alyssa]

cool

It is so fun watching this with my 8 year old- his fresh eyes & introducing him to good sci-fi, it's just a really nice time.
Course there might be some competition this weekend with the new Indian Jones movie but we'll fit it in. <grin>

[DLiquid]

I watched this last night. I watched maybe 6 episodes of B5 back when it originally aired, but I could never get into it. I have to say, now that I've heard from many people that the story arc is complex and well thought out, I'm able to give more of a pass to the bad acting and cheesy effects.

The worst offenders to me were Takashima, the commander, and the doctor. :DYes! Takashima was especially cringe-worthy. I felt kind of embarrassed to be watching during some of her scenes on the bridge.

One thing that people had a tough time dealing with is the fact that you can "tell" it's CGI. It's not that you can't tell that TNG (the main reference point at the time) used physical models, it's that people had seen those effects for so long, they just sort of forgot. The effects were obviously CGI because people hadn't seen them much before. I used to go round and round with people on this point. "You can tell it's CGI!" "You can tell the Enterprise is a model." "No you can't!" Heh.It's ironic that I started re-watching Star Trek: TNG last summer, and I'm currently about half-way through it, so to me, this debate is timely :D. It is no contest. Models or not, ST:TNG/DS9 effects were so so much better than the effects seen here. This is almost like The Last Starfighter v2.0. Since I don't expect B5's effects to be impressive anymore, this doesn't bug me too much, but I'm glad to hear they improve as the series progresses.

Other things that I will get used to are the dated fashions (ST:TNG has the same problem), and the dated technology (e.g., CRT screens!).

I'm in favor of 2 episodes/week. I'm getting the DVDs through Blockbuster Online, so 1 ep/week would be kind of a slow turnover for me.

[gchance]

This is almost like The Last Starfighter v2.0. Since I don't expect B5's effects to be impressive anymore, this doesn't bug me too much, but I'm glad to hear they improve as the series progresses.

As I said, the progression is almost unnoticeable until you look back towards the beginning again, then it's like holy crap, it did improve. It's also not realistic to expect Battlestar Galactica quality effects here. It's 1993-1994 CGI. :)

Other things that I will get used to are the dated fashions (ST:TNG has the same problem), and the dated technology (e.g., CRT screens!).

I don't quite get the people saying the fashions are dated though. Human hairstyles possibly, but everyone's in button-down uniforms. The aliens are, well, alien. It's like complaining that Centauris have dated fashion because they look 15th Century.

One thing they did in the pilot that they didn't do later in the series is show a display screen as it's output... as in, direct output of CGI as opposed to a display screen being generated on a display.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2096/2511257007_01e9e4b2f1.jpg

They did it both with the 1st person POV of scanning peoples' cards, and also when the doctor was using his display. Later in the series when this is done it's ON the display the person is looking at.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/minbari/screen1.jpg

I think in the pilot they did that for budgetary reasons.

CRT screens were what they had. :) I think on shows with bigger budgets they'd do it with effects. While they had LCD screens they were small at the time, I don't think they had really big ones back then. Starting with the first episode of the series though, they mask it more. They push the monitors far into the set more and frame them 16x9, then mask two corners. Like this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/2512110596_6c82e80bd3.jpg

Greg

[DLiquid]

I don't quite get the people saying the fashions are dated though. Human hairstyles possibly, but everyone's in button-down uniforms. The aliens are, well, alien. It's like complaining that Centauris have dated fashion because they look 15th Century.I just noticed it with the humans. Hairstyles, shoulder pads, collarless shirts, the cut of pants, etc. Even when they tried to make something unique and timeless, you can still detect the early nineties fashion influence. It's hard to avoid this.

At least B5 is future Earth, so it's supposed to be an evolution of Earth styles. Take BSG on the other hand, where non-Earth humans amazingly developed the same clothing that Earth humans did, even down to absurd fashions such as the neck tie. :rolleyes:

[gchance]

Take BSG on the other hand, where non-Earth humans amazingly developed the same clothing that Earth humans did, even down to absurd fashions such as the neck tie. :rolleyes:

Now, now, you don't know that. It could be that

WE got our asurd fashion sense from THEM. They haven't reached Earth yet.

Bob Dylan must be a Cylon, because they said that all Cylons hear All Along the Watchtower. Right?

Greg

[Craigbob]

At least B5 is future Earth, so it's supposed to be an evolution of Earth styles. Take BSG on the other hand, where non-Earth humans amazingly developed the same clothing that Earth humans did, even down to absurd fashions such as the neck tie. :rolleyes:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

That has been my major beef with BSG since the beginning. Now I just add it in to crappy continuity/lack of coherent idea as to where this is going and other problems.

[Rob Helmerichs]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

That has been my major beef with BSG since the beginning. Now I just add it in to crappy continuity/lack of coherent idea as to where this is going and other problems.
Their excuse is interesting--that it's a stylistic choice to "translate" alien culture into our terms so it will make more sense to us. Which could be a valid stylistic choice IF THEY WEREN'T HEADED FOR FRACKIN' EARTH!

[gastrof]

Another similar problem with BSG-

Character family names.

Family names developed on Earth over an extended period of time as languages and customs changed and cultures sometimes blended.

So why do we hear of people from the Colonies having family names that sound Irish, Italian, Hawaiian...

And those names don't always match the look of the person with the name.

Since those names developed on Earth independenly, how do we also find them amongst the Colonial survivors? And why do the names not match up with the type of people who carry them?

At least on B5 we never had that problem. Look at Kosh. 'They are all Kosh.' Now, this I can accept without reservation. :p

[alyssa]

Just to get back to the gathering for a min- Thankfully they stopped using fish tanks in later eps- it stretched credibility to have a large fish tanks in guest quarters. When they found the body in the fish tank all I could think of was, is the tank big enough for the body? shouldn't it be a closed system in case gravity goes? In addition, what a waste of water, space & resources to maintain them. Granted comfort & aesthetics are important but in a bang-for-the-buck sense fishtanks are not the way to go.

[JustAllie]

Kind of reminds me of Forever Knight--Nick used to change his hairstyle frequently, so of course for the weekly flashbacks they were limited to time periods where he had the same hairstyle as the present. :D
I dunno, sometimes they made the actor wear those awful hair extensions, which made it look like he had a "mullet." Blech.

Back on topic, Greg, you've given me a UMF to re-watch Babylon 5 now. Grrr. :p

[gchance]

Just to get back to the gathering for a min- Thankfully they stopped using fish tanks in later eps- it stretched credibility to have a large fish tanks in guest quarters. When they found the body in the fish tank all I could think of was, is the tank big enough for the body? shouldn't it be a closed system in case gravity goes?

You know I hadn't thought of it, but you're right. :)

In addition, what a waste of water, space & resources to maintain them. Granted comfort & aesthetics are important but in a bang-for-the-buck sense fishtanks are not the way to go.

Along those lines, in the first episode of S2

When Sheridan comes on board, Ivanova takes him to his quarters and the first thing he asks is, "Showers? Do I have real... showers? With water?" Then they have a big discussion about how senior officers get real running water, how much of a luxury it is, and how not many people get it.

I think in the end JMS just needed an easy way to kill off Del Varner in the pilot. :)

Greg

[alyssa]

If you want to be silly about standing water why not have a large bodies of water in common areas, like fountains in the Zocolo (sp?). I mean, Bathroom water (shower & toilets) are different, it's a relatively small amount of free water which could be contained by a sealable toilet/stall. Yeah, I know the dead guy in the fishtank was a fun camera shot.

Along those lines tho-- this is a fun site & book. http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/

For the fishtank & having a small explosion almost wreck the station, I suggest this ep get a rating of;
PGP-13 = Children under 13 might be tricked into thinking the physics were pretty good; parental guidance is suggested
:D

[doom1701]

shouldn't it be a closed system in case gravity goes?

On B5, gravity couldn't just "go" like in Star Trek. Gravity is simulated on the station by it's spin. If something happened that was severe enough to cause the rotation to stop, the station would most likely tear itself apart. Nobody's going to be concerned over some water spilled from a fish tank.

[DLiquid]

Isn't gravity on these space shows kind of like language? Yes, they have gravity and virtually all alien races speak English, how nice of them. There are almost always explanations. B5 rotating, universal translator, etc. In my experience you just have to accept the explanation and turn off your brain, since you can often find lots of problems with it. For example, all of the untranslated Klingon heard on Star Trek is completely inconsistent with the concept of a univeral translator.

[doom1701]

B5 did a pretty good job of addressing those concerns, without going overboard in being "too real". The design of the station is somewhat realistic, the languages are addressed in somewhat realistic manners, etc.

[gchance]

Someone may need to correct me here, but on B5 most alien races are speaking English on the station. The ones that can't (because they can't reproduce the sounds) carry translation devices, such as the Vorlons and the Pak'ma'ra. Vorlons make a whooshing sound, which is why you hear that before you hear English. Pak'ma'ra carry a glowing staff that translates.

This is also why when you see them speak to each other it's subtitled. I don't remember if this was shown in the pilot or not.

Greg

[Jonathan_S]

B5 did a pretty good job of addressing those concerns, without going overboard in being "too real". The design of the station is somewhat realistic, the languages are addressed in somewhat realistic manners, etc.In particular, gravity was handled fairly well on B5. The younger races either didn't have artificial gravity or simulated gravity by rotation. (In other words, things we can do today). The older more advanced races had artificial (star trek style) gravity, but didn't tell anybody exactly how it worked:D.

[mrmike]

Pak'ma'ra carry a glowing staff that translates.

OMG. The Pak'ma'ra are

Ood :D

[JYoung]

I dunno, sometimes they made the actor wear those awful hair extensions, which made it look like he had a "mullet." Blech.



They were trying to make Geraint look more like Rick Springfield.

[wmcbrine]

Rotational pseudo-gravity isn't fantasy. No need to turn off your brain for that.

Now, the other races in B5 have actual "artificial gravity", like in Trek, operating on unknown principles. That's fantasy.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Now, the other races in B5 have actual "artificial gravity", like in Trek, operating on unknown principles. That's fantasy.
On the other hand, it's not necessarily fantasy that races who are far more advanced than us might have technologies that we don't understand...

[gchance]

Back on topic, Greg, you've given me a UMF to re-watch Babylon 5 now. Grrr. :p

Hop on board! I tell ya, B5 makes wonderful treadmill fodder. Keeps me going, anyway. We haven't started the series proper, so join in the fun. :)

We need to recruit rhuntington, too.

Greg

[DLiquid]

Rotational pseudo-gravity isn't fantasy. No need to turn off your brain for that.I was responding the discussion of why a large fish tank didn't make sense on a space station where the rotational pseudo-gravity might fail. I'd rather just accept that they have gravity, and not try to think of inconsistencies regarding the gravity. Same thing in Star Trek. I just accept that nearly all aliens speak English, and I try not to think of the universal translator. Sometimes I can't help but notice the inconsistencies, but I don't think the fish tank thing would have ever occurred to me.

[Mr_Bester]

... Pak'ma'ra carry a glowing staff that translates.

This is also why when you see them speak to each other it's subtitled. I don't remember if this was shown in the pilot or not.

Greg

That was the Gaim that carry the glow ball ala the ood.(Gaim named after Neil Gaiman, just fyi)

[JustAllie]

Hop on board! I tell ya, B5 makes wonderful treadmill fodder. Keeps me going, anyway. We haven't started the series proper, so join in the fun. :)

We need to recruit rhuntington, too.

Greg
It's biking season, so most of my exercise is outdoors these days! Maybe I can download some eps to my iPod, though, for those times when I hit the gym or work out in the basement (i.e., rainy days).

I was going to drop the gym membership for the summer, but they're still charging me at the old, cheap rate, so I decided to keep it. Tomorrow is arms & chest day, as Richard would say! ;) I can't really watch a video while I'm using the weight machines, but I usually warm up by doing ~1/2 hour of cardio.

/hijack

[gchance]

That was the Gaim that carry the glow ball ala the ood.(Gaim named after Neil Gaiman, just fyi)

Whoops, Bester, you're right. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

The Pak'ma'ra don't do anything except eat. Everything. Also I think they refuse to learn English just to be contrary.

Greg

[Craigbob]

Someone may need to correct me here, but on B5 most alien races are speaking English on the station. The ones that can't (because they can't reproduce the sounds) carry translation devices, such as the Vorlons and the Pak'ma'ra. Vorlons make a whooshing sound, which is why you hear that before you hear English. Pak'ma'ra carry a glowing staff that translates.

This is also why when you see them speak to each other it's subtitled. I don't remember if this was shown in the pilot or not.

Greg

There are several cases of the alien races having translators, the Gaim, The Pak'ma'Ra, N'grath, Vorlons....

The rest either speak English or an Esperanto type language called Interlacc. I seem to recall that being mentioned once.

[BeanMeScot]

I was going to drop the gym membership for the summer, but they're still charging me at the old, cheap rate, so I decided to keep it. Tomorrow is arms & chest day, as Richard would say! ;) I can't really watch a video while I'm using the weight machines, but I usually warm up by doing ~1/2 hour of cardio.

/hijack

The shows are about 43 minutes or so long.

[gchance]

There are several cases of the alien races having translators, the Gaim, The Pak'ma'Ra, N'grath, Vorlons....

The rest either speak English or an Esperanto type language called Interlacc. I seem to recall that being mentioned once.

I don't remember N'Grath having a translation device, I just remember him just sort of puppeting around. ;)

That's ok, we'll see him soon enough, I do believe he's in Soul Hunter. We'll be seeing that one this weekend.

Greg

[rhuntington3]

Chest Day is my favorite. We hit biceps with back and triceps with shoulders.

[Ereth]

Is this being aired somewhere? Or are you guys watching the DVD in unison or what?

I always wanted to get the DVD sets, but they were always so expensive, especially to buy all 5 seasons. I tried to buy them once when Best Buy had them for $19 but they "lost" my order and I never got them. :(

[alyssa]

On B5, gravity couldn't just "go" like in Star Trek. Gravity is simulated on the station by it's spin. If something happened that was severe enough to cause the rotation to stop, the station would most likely tear itself apart. Nobody's going to be concerned over some water spilled from a fish tank.
True, gravity isn't so much the point of my comment rather the shear sillyness of devoting 20 (+or-) gal of water to most of the 'hotel' style rooms in the station.

I suspect we all accept the physics of rotational induced gravity but the blatant disregard of the resources require for the tanks is jarring. When I first saw them I thought the tanks were screen savers.

[rhuntington3]

Is this being aired somewhere? Or are you guys watching the DVD in unison or what?

I always wanted to get the DVD sets, but they were always so expensive, especially to buy all 5 seasons. I tried to buy them once when Best Buy had them for $19 but they "lost" my order and I never got them. :(

We're watching on DVD.

[alyssa]

I tried to buy them once when Best Buy had them for $19 but they "lost" my order and I never got them. :(
Best buy currently has them listed for $20/season

[JYoung]

True, gravity isn't so much the point of my comment rather the shear sillyness of devoting 20 (+or-) gal of water to most of the 'hotel' style rooms in the station.

I suspect we all accept the physics of rotational induced gravity but the blatant disregard of the resources require for the tanks is jarring. When I first saw them I thought the tanks were screen savers.

Wouldn't the water in the tank also look a little odd due to Coriolis Effect?

[alyssa]

Wouldn't the water in the tank also look a little odd due to Coriolis Effect?
I don't think so, both are rotating in the same direction & vector so the seeming curve would not be an issue. But maybe I'm missing something?

[Rob Helmerichs]

I don't think so, both are rotating in the same direction & vector so the seeming curve would not be an issue. But maybe I'm missing something?
If I understand correctly, with a straight rotation like that the "floor" would always feel like it was sloping because of the centrifugal force, although in a structure that large it would probably not be noticeable. As you suggest, there would be no Coriolis Effect because there's no differential rotation like you have on the surface of a rotating sphere.

If I understand correctly, anyway...

[Mars Rocket]

Picard had a fishtank, at least early on. I just figured it was the kind of thing they put in the high-end B5 hotel rooms to show how "luxurious" they were.

My gravity question is: isn't the command center in the axis at one end of the station? I know there's apparently a known blooper about the stars outside the window not rotating, but it looked to me like it was in a non-rotation part anyway. I guess I need to go find a diagram of B5.

Lets get the regular threads started already - I finished episode 1 and have several questions...

[danm628]

My gravity question is: isn't the command center in the axis at one end of the station? I know there's apparently a known blooper about the stars outside the window not rotating, but it looked to me like it was in a non-rotation part anyway.

The command deck is near the central axis, so effective gravity is lower but still present.

JMS stated early on that the non-rotating stars were due to budget. The cheap methods didn't work well and the good methods couldn't be done on a weekly basis. (Check the Lurker's Guide, there is a discussion there on this.)

(Side note: How many years back do spoilers go? B5 is pre-TiVo...)

[JYoung]

If I understand correctly, with a straight rotation like that the "floor" would always feel like it was sloping because of the centrifugal force, although in a structure that large it would probably not be noticeable. As you suggest, there would be no Coriolis Effect because there's no differential rotation like you have on the surface of a rotating sphere.

If I understand correctly, anyway...

I'm trying to remember what Arthur C. Clarke said about it but I don't have my copy of Rendezvous With Rama handy.


Picard had a fishtank, at least early on. I just figured it was the kind of thing they put in the high-end B5 hotel rooms to show how "luxurious" they were.



Picard's fish tank lasted until the destruction of the Enterprise-D in Generations.

[danterner]

(Side note: How many years back do spoilers go? B5 is pre-TiVo...)

I believe we are treating this viewing of the series as if it were a 'first airing' - in other words, anything from future episodes should be spoilered. Many of the people participating in the thread are doing so because they are just now starting to watch B5 for the first time.

From the preliminary thread:


The only rule is the same one we follow with other TV show discussions... no spoilers for the rest of the series without spoiler tags.

Greg

(If that's not the case, someone please let me know so I can stop reading the thread before it is too late) :)

[gchance]

(Side note: How many years back do spoilers go? B5 is pre-TiVo...)

It varies depending on a lot of things, like the popularity of something and general knowledge. For example, it's safe to say if you say Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, nobody cares.

Also in this particular case, we have a lot of people coming into this series new. Part of the point of these threads is to give people a place to discuss what they're watching as they're watching it without spoiling 3 years from now.

In the case of Babylon 5, it's as important as Lost. If someone's coming into Lost new, and just watched the first episode, you don't want to tell them things that just happened. Not only is it unfair, but so much has happened in between that it really wouldn't make a lot of sense to them.

So as a rule, things that have to do with events transpiring in episodes AFTER the one being discussed in this thread, we use spoiler tags. Talking about characters we haven't seen yet in a context outside story (like our discussion of races and a character not seen in the series yet called n'grath) is ok.

Greg

[alyssa]

I'm trying to remember what Arthur C. Clarke said about it but I don't have my copy of Rendezvous With Rama handy.
Wikipedia had a good summation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_Effect

Picard's fish tank lasted until the destruction of the Enterprise-D in Generations.

See, I got no problems with Picard's tank. It's obviously a personal choice & a bit more practical then a dog, like in Enterprise but a still familial animal thing which is cool.

[wmcbrine]

For example, it's safe to say if you say Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, nobody cares.:eek: NOOOOOOOOOOO!



Just kidding. :)

[Church AV Guy]

I take it the fish tank is, as was said, a lot more practical than a dog. It would however be a hugh status symbol, and as such, only the highest ranking officers and ambassadors would have such status symbols that are so overtly symbolic of their status. It might alost be a necessity to have a blatent symbol of your position. In Firefox, Gant tells one of his CIA helpers that the cigarettes they gave him to smoke aren't Russian, so how could he pull off being a MIG pilot. The guy answers back that the cigarettes NOT being Russian is a sign of importance and will reinforce his pilot status with the guards.

Coriolis acceleration would be very obvious in certain circumstances on B5. If someone in the promenade were to be playing a baseball game, and a hit was made parallel to the long axis of the station, the ball would "appear" to curve anti-spinward. On a structure like B5, the effect would be pretty startling.

The show would be very boreing indeed if we had to wade through language translation every conversation of every episode. It is just practical to ignore the problem by a simple statement that Earth built B5, and on it the official language is English. On your own, speak what you like.

[JYoung]

Wikipedia had a good summation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_Effect




I wasn't thinking that the fish tank should assume a parabola.
I was thinking that the water level might look slightly tilted.

Although a good waterfall should look interesting.

[Hunter Green]

Coming back to rewatch this after so many years, I found myself remembering mostly the flaws beforehand, and expecting it to be a struggle to sit through, a sacrifice to be made for the good of what's still to come. But it held up far better than I expected it would.

Sure, some of the effects look cheesy even by the time's standards, let alone today's. Some of the acting is weak. Some of the exposition is hamhanded. Some of the lighting is trying way too hard. Some of the dialogue is flat. Why is it that those are the things we remember the most the farther away in time we get?

I was also pleased to note that the storyline is both compelling and fairly solid. There are a few quibbles but they're minor; by and large, the plot has no big holes. The gradual unveiling of what's going on works well to keep interest. And that's not even accounting for the sense of promise -- the feeling that we've just glimpsed the first hints of something that's going to be huge. Even taken on its own, the story really worked for me.

And there's still Londo's powerful stinging quote about becoming a tourist attraction. Wham.

[alyssa]

Although a good waterfall should look interesting.
Yeah, a waterfall in the Zocolo would have been interesting. :D



And there's still Londo's powerful stinging quote about becoming a tourist attraction. Wham.
Yeah. That's the thing I like about JMS's work, he writes truths that are universal & timeless. I think someone else alluded to the Earth political situation with reference to the current reference.

Living in a tourist destination, I've definitely noticed a significantly more foreign customers in my store. But I live close to the Canadian border too.

[gchance]

Just wait for Bearbylon 5. ;)

Greg

[Jonathan_S]

Just wait for Bearbylon 5. ;)

GregThen go read the lurker's guide entry, for whichever episode that was, for the background behind it. :D

[doom1701]

OK, I know I'm a few weeks behind, but I finished The Gathering (did the DC). Like someone else said, I remember seeing this a long time ago and basically thinking "This is terrible"--only to have the series grow on me over time. But I'm glad that I didn't feel the same way on this viewing. Yeah, it had it's issues, but it was pretty enjoyable.

I hope JMS can find some other roles for that dude in C&C--he seemed to be a pretty good actor.

As for the story, it is really tough to comment on it like it's the first time seeing it. All I can say is that there seems to be a lot going on, and I hope we learn more as the series goes on.


(yeah, spoiler tags in a spoiler thread, bah, humbug)
I do wish that we would have learned more of Takashima's role; I guess she was going to be the long term "mole" in the series if her character stuck around.

[gchance]

I hope JMS can find some other roles for that dude in C&C--he seemed to be a pretty good actor.

That's a good idea. It all depends on what you want, I guess.

Greg