New TivoHD and OTA reception

[ManateeMan]

I hooked up a new Tivo HD last night with Comcast analog cable and a $10 indoor RCA VHF/UHF antenna with good ratings for OTA HD. The OTA HD picture is awesome on our 15 year old analog TV. All of the local (Richmond, VA) HD stations are within 25 degrees of each other and 9.5-12 miles away according to antennaweb.com. I think I have adjusted the antenna as much as I can for its location.

Here are my questions:
1. Occasionally the picture has a brief pause, distorted lines, or fuzzy sections especially when the channel has just been changed. Is that to be expected with OTA HD or is that a signal strength issue?

2. What is the ideal minimum signal strength for OTA HD stations to avoid picture issues? Here are the signal strength readings according to the Tivo HD.
6-1: 96 (9.5 miles)
8-1: 68 (9.5 miles)
12-1: 84 (12 miles)
23-1: 89 (9.5 miles)
35-1: 98 (9.5 miles)
57-1: 70-80 with fluctuations (unlisted but probably 9.5 miles)

3. Given the distance and signal strength, do I need a powered indoor antenna instead? Any recommendations for amplified indoor antennas if needed?

[hmm52]

I haven't seen tuning issues until signal drops below 65, but I needed to rotate outdoor antenna 180 degrees to force that to happen. Just a test for another poster. I like the Terk indoor HD/UHF antenna (looks like a fern) but never used it amplified out of preference; & not necessary. It's not unusual for tuner to take a moment before locking on signal. It sounds like you're at a very good location for OTA reception, provided there aren't large buildings nearby. Next year may be different as some broadcasters are moving back to VHF band, some low VHF (below 7). VHF usually reguires a different antenna, especially for low VHF. That's still a ways off.

[Saturn_V]

I'm 25mi from towers with no mountains or terrain blocking. Here are the antennas I like:

AntennasDirect DB2 (http://antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html): I use a DB2 with an inline amp mounted in my attic. All my stations except a single low VHF one come in at +80% strength.

AntennasDirect SR8 (http://antennasdirect.com/SR8_indoor_yagi.html): I got my gf one of these and she's really happy with it (10mi from towers). It replaced both powered and passive RCA antennas- and she's getting a 15% boost in signal than those previous models.

BTW, the TiVoHD has a better tuner than the TV itself. I couldn't get the low-band VHF channels before TiVoHD.

[TiVo Steve]

I'm 25mi from towers with no mountains or terrain blocking. Here are the antennas I like:

AntennasDirect DB2 (http://antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html): I use a DB2 with an inline amp mounted in my attic. All my stations except a single low VHF one come in at +80% strength.

AntennasDirect SR8 (http://antennasdirect.com/SR8_indoor_yagi.html): I got my gf one of these and she's really happy with it (10mi from towers). It replaced both powered and passive RCA antennas- and she's getting a 15% boost in signal than those previous models.

BTW, the TiVoHD has a better tuner than the TV itself. I couldn't get the low-band VHF channels before TiVoHD.

The DB2 is here http://www.antonline.com/p_DB2-GP_284516.htm at almost 1/2 the $$$.

[TheGreenHornet]

I haven't seen tuning issues until signal drops below 65, but I needed to rotate outdoor antenna 180 degrees to force that to happen. Just a test for another poster. I like the Terk indoor HD/UHF antenna (looks like a fern) but never used it amplified out of preference; & not necessary. It's not unusual for tuner to take a moment before locking on signal. It sounds like you're at a very good location for OTA reception, provided there aren't large buildings nearby. Next year may be different as some broadcasters are moving back to VHF band, some low VHF (below 7). VHF usually reguires a different antenna, especially for low VHF. That's still a ways off.

For hmm52 also in the Philly market. You are absolutely correct about some stations are moving backing to VHF in February 2009 as is the case of WPVI (6ABC) in Philly. They are currently broadcasting their digital signal on UHF64. A poster a few months back pointed out that WPVI is moving it's digital signal back to it's home of 60 plus years to VHF6 once the changeover occurs. I suppose they are going back to VHF6 so their audio signal can bleed into the FM band which WPVI often promotes on the air. All of the other Philly stations are staying on the UHF band except for WHYY (PBS) who is staying on their current analog VHF12.

I can not find the link to the FCC's final frequency assignments for the changeover from August 07. I bought an antenna that receives VHF and UHF (Terk55) last summer cause I was leaving nothing to chance with this change over and the government. If you are buying an antenna perhaps you should consider VHF and UHF reception in case you are in the same situation as in Philly.

On a side note: What was with WPVI and their audio and the HD feed on Lost this past Thursday night? I watched it off the Tivo last night and it was so low for the first 50 minutes that I had the volume up all the way. Then just as Sawyer is making his move to return to the beach in the last 10 minutes someone at the station fixed the audio from the ABC HD feed. This is not the first time there has been issues on WPVI.

[TheGreenHornet]

I found the final assignment list on the FCC list dated 08/06/07 in Excel:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.xls

[hmm52]

Yup. I'm not real pleased with WPVI's dcision to move back to 6. There's a discussion about the wisdom and motivation behind it on a German website (in English), as well as a ist of nationwide channel reassignments to VHF next year - http://www.hightv.de/showthread.php?t=26387 The most reliable piece of HD equipment I own is a $40 low tech Channel Master 4 way bow tie grid antenna. It's been sitting in a stand outside on a covered terrace since 2001. Unobtrusive. No software updates to worry about. But it's not going to cut it for WPVI next year; or end of this year if they make the change then. Some manufacturers have designed VHF/UHF alternatives specifically for the transition - compact, unlike the huge rooftop monsters common way back when. One option is a small directional VHF ant. spliced into the feed with a combiner. We'll see. I didn't have any luck with the Terk55 I tried some years ago; maybe it'd been put together by a disgruntled Terk employeee.

The one local HD I can't get OTA is WHYY's, for the last few years with their intermediate transition to the '09 transition. Its broadcasting parameters changed to avoid interference with stations to the north & east. So that reassignment will be welcome.

I recorded the recent Lost for a hospitalized friend but haven't transferred it to DVD yet. I haven't noticed audio problems with PVI, but clearly remember a Super Bowl about 4 years ago where it sounded as if the mikes were positioned 2 booths over & one level down on the HD version only. Through the whole game. I think it was CAU carrying it.

Do you actually receive WHYY HD with a Terk55?

[TolloNodre]

The fact that you have fairly decent signal strength, yet issues of distortions would seem to point to multipath issues.

I'm no guru by any stretch, but the indoor antennas seem to suffer more from multipath with the digital signals. There's another posting today from someone who complained of buying a fancy indoor powered antenna and it performed worse than a pair of rabbit ears set outside by his dish.

My only recommendation would be to setup an outside antenna if possible. If not, stick with what you have and don't waste the money on the powered indoor variety.

[wblynch]

The most reliable piece of HD equipment I own is a $40 low tech Channel Master 4 way bow tie grid antenna. It's been sitting in a stand outside on a covered terrace since 2001. Unobtrusive. No software updates to worry about. But it's not going to cut it for WPVI next year; or end of this year if they make the change then.


I am using a Radio Shack U-75X antenna and I get VHF down to channel 2 plus all the UHF and digital channels.

I know it's a UHF only antenna but I think I'll be good when the digitals move back below the line next February.

I'm 53 miles from the towers with a pretty clear shot.

The antenna is 40" long but ends up more compact than it sounds. I'm sure it would go on a balcony but won't be as tidy as a 4221.

You might want to give the RS U-75X a try. I think it's $30 or so.

[hmm52]

Thanks for the tiip as I prefer buying CE stuff from a vendor with easy return policies; local if possible. Antennas are definitely in that category.

The CM 4221 has been retained to acquire Gemstar VBI data over Ch12 for 2 Sony DVRs after switch to FiOS; now also for times when S3 & a Toshiba Tv can't handle VZ's feed for local HDs (tiling). The 4221 didn't work well inside of 3rd floor window; but has worked equally well on ground level as it did raised to height of 2nd floor. It is poor for analog Chs 3 & 6, 10 miles from towers. Tried out Terk HDTVa today with rabbit ears extended in 2nd floor window; did fine with 3 & 6 though different orientation needed to clear ghosting for each. I'll wait and see how the signals are after the transition. For those not facing reassignments to VHF, especially low VHF, the CM 4221 is 20X36", & stands vertically.

TheGreenHornet - You're right. There was a trough in the Lost audio before the 50 minute mark. Though that's not the strangest thing about PVI -- their news team built around geriatric men and the youngest women they can find. From which decade & country are they broadcasting? Denmark in the 1980's?

ManateeMan - It wolud help to know the television and how it's connected to the TiVo. Output format setting on the latter as well.

[ManateeMan]

ManateeMan - It wolud help to know the television and how it's connected to the TiVo. Output format setting on the latter as well.

hmm52, the television is a Sony Trinitron KV-27TS29 27" Analog TV purchased in November 1993. It is connected to the Tivo HD through the composite cables that came with the TivoHD. The Video Output Format setting is the default "480i Fixed".

All of the the stations are currently UHF but one (12) is going back to VHF in 2009. I am currently looking at the Terk HDTVa from Amazon for $35.94 shipped instead of twice that amount from a local store.

I have had the Tivo HD 4 nights now and it has rebooted twice - once manually because 2 analog cable shows were being distorted while recording simultaneously and once spontaneously while recording analog and watching a digital show the next night. The antenna may be the least of my worries.

[hmm52]

I wouldn't bother replacing your antenna at this point. Particularly on 6, 23, & 35, your reception is plenty strong enough to eliminate current antenna as source of problem. When I've had reception dropouts (50+mph wind gusts), it has manifested as either frozen picture then black - Sony, or tiling/pixelation then black - TiVo. Nothing else. The picture issues you described are not characteristic of poor digital reception. The channels you were recording were 2 of those listed in first post, or actually analogs?

I'd start thinking about returning/exchanging your DVR with merchant. Monitor things for awhile, rebooting etc., if you've got a fair amount of time before return window closes.

You'll see a vast improvement in picture when you get an HDTV hooked up through HDMI or component video cables.

It's worthwhile to try out your current TiVo with another TV, hopefully a much newer model.

----I never watch analog OTA or cable unless checking out antenna for reception. I do remember seeing a fuzzy/blurry picture for second or so when channel was first tuned in the last week or so. I don't remember which tuner, DVR, or TV was involved however.

[rainwater]

I have had the Tivo HD 4 nights now and it has rebooted twice - once manually because 2 analog cable shows were being distorted while recording simultaneously and once spontaneously while recording analog and watching a digital show the next night. The antenna may be the least of my worries.

Has the software upgraded to 9.3 yet? Its possible it is still using an early version would result in reboots for various reasons. Sometimes it can take up to 3-4 days to see the software update.

[ManateeMan]

Has the software upgraded to 9.3 yet? Its possible it is still using an early version would result in reboots for various reasons. Sometimes it can take up to 3-4 days to see the software update.

Yes, the issues I have seen have all been on 9.3a. As soon as I setup the Tivo HD I forced an extra 1-2 connections in the first hour so that I could be running the latest version of the software. The first issue did not occur for 26+ hours later.

I haven't seen tuning issues until signal drops below 65...

Hmm52, I think you nailed it on the first post. When using the Tivo to check the signal quality I can see the TV picture in the background. I see the distortion issues when the signal drops to right at 65 or below. I have ordered the Terk HDTVa and will report back after it arrives.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[TheGreenHornet]

The one local HD I can't get OTA is WHYY's, for the last few years with their intermediate transition to the '09 transition. Its broadcasting parameters changed to avoid interference with stations to the north & east. So that reassignment will be welcome.

Do you actually receive WHYY HD with a Terk55?

hmm52:
I feel kinda fortunate that the Terk55 works great for me at 10 miles away from the towers. The antenna sits on my window sill facing away from the towers. I have read where it can be kinda hit or miss in terms of reception. Now the nagging question is the type of receiption will I get with it when WPVI stays on VHF6 in Febraury 2008. Thanks for the link to the German site explaining the economics of 6ABC staying on VHF6.

Concerning the PBS station WHYY on VHF12 that is staying on VHF12....I get a decent analog signal. I do not get a digital signal of WHYY on 12.1 or any other sub channel. I do however, get a great digital signal of WPXX channel 61 licensed to Wilmington - Philadelphia - the local ION affliate. I can watch Mama's Family off the air each night. :)

Speaking of classic TV now that The Tube has been gone from WPHL it would easily be replaced by RTN (Retro TV Network) designed for the digital subchannels. When was the last time you saw The Untouchables?

[hmm52]

... I think you nailed it on the first post. When using the Tivo to check the signal quality I can see the TV picture in the background. I see the distortion issues when the signal drops to right at 65 or below. I have ordered the Terk HDTVa and will report back after it arrives....

The screen you're referring to is the signal strength display - most useful for setting up & orienting antenna. You'll see sharper dips and peaks in SS on the diagnostics screen - better indication of antenna gain. Quality ant. yields less fluctuation in SS.

As said before, I prefer to use the antenna's inherent gain rather than powering something like the Terks (amplified noise). Don't feel that it has to be tethered to TiVo with provided cable (6-10'). Male to male coax coupler & 15-25' extension cable should allow best placement in room with insignificant signal loss.

Good Luck

[hmm52]

...Speaking of classic TV now that The Tube has been gone from WPHL it would easily be replaced by RTN (Retro TV Network) designed for the digital subchannels. When was the last time you saw The Untouchables?

Haven't seen Untouchables, Charlie Chan or Carry On Gang movies since the last century. Thought BBC America would have the latter but haven't found any so far.

Within 10 suburban miles of Roxborough towers, we probably won't have too much difficulty with 6 in '09. Another matter if Verizon goes ahead with IPTV in 2-3 yrs. At least three DVRs become immediately marginalized - mine.