TiVo distributed to flatscreen? Nice or nightmare?

[rilian]

I have a TiVo (mode 0, cachecard, endpad but otherwise unmodded) that has the RF output distributed to televisions in the kitchen and bedroom. The bedroom TV is a bright and clear but old and small Sony and I'd like to replace it (it's fourteen inch, KV-14T1U). Widescreen programs are _tiny_ on it!

My problem is that television discussions all say that a set that's good for one sort of input (HD, say) might be bad at another (e.g. freeview). None review analogue RF, which isn't surprising.

If I buy a nice new 20-inch flatscreen (say a new Sony 20B4050) what should I expect? I don't care about the freeview and suchlike - the set is only used to watch TiVo. I'm afraid that new sets are so optimised for HD and HDMI inputs that a SD image via RF will be a problem.

It's not exactly something I can test in a shop, or read in a review. I'd appreciate any comments from people here who feed a modern flatscreen with RF from a TiVo !

thanks!

Chris

[laurence@key2.co]

OK, I've just tried it.
I have a tivo distributed via HDMI - but I also use RF for one room (with a smallish CRT with no HDMI).
I just tuned my 32" LCD (Samsung LE32R86) into the RF so I could compare. It looks perfectly watchable (watching digital TV from a set top box plugged into tivo) - but not nearly as nice as via the HDMI . Basically, image is less smooth and colours are a bit garish (I'm sure a bit of tweaking would improve things a bit). But like I say, perfectly watchable.
You could always start with that then look at other ways of doing the distro - there are all sorts of ways of sending video now - even wirelessly.
Loz

[TCM2007]

How do you connect a TiVo by HDMI?

[terryeden]

I watch TiVo via component. A networked TiVo can stream media to a variety of sources (HTPC, XBMC etc) where it can be upscaled onto component of HDMI.

One of the problems with the RF module on the TiVo is that it only outputs in mono.

[TCM2007]

Ah I see, so you're not watching the TiVo via component, but the XBox/PC.

[Raisltin Majere]

I watch TiVo via component. A networked TiVo can stream media to a variety of sources (HTPC, XBMC etc) where it can be upscaled onto component of HDMI.

One of the problems with the RF module on the TiVo is that it only outputs in mono.

This is next on my list of things to look at.

People talk about mode 0 being essential for plasma/LCD, I currently have a couple of xboxes running XBMC, I'm planning to get a component cable for the living room XBox and watch tivo via that.

How is it at scaling? Does it to a good job?

[6022tivo]

I think it also depends on the TV,

A RF picture on my pioneer plasma looks fine, but on a woolworths £299 LCD may look poor.

[Heuer]

A networked TiVo can stream media to a variety of sources (HTPC, XBMC etc) where it can be upscaled onto component of HDMI.


How? I use Tytools to grab the odd material I want to archive but never considered 'streaming' to another device.

[terryeden]

People talk about mode 0 being essential for plasma/LCD, I currently have a couple of xboxes running XBMC, I'm planning to get a component cable for the living room XBox and watch tivo via that.

How is it at scaling? Does it to a good job?

It's great. I have the Xbox set to 720p rather than 1080i. The only issue is that the BIOS is hardwired for 60Hz rather than 50Hz. To be honest, I only notice it when the credits scroll.

I use ccxstream on the TiVo. I browse to it on the XBMC and can see the (alphabetical) list of what's in Now Playing.

You can also use the TivoX plugin which gives you a slightly nicer UI into TiVo.

Let me know if you want any help setting it up.

[Heuer]

I have one of these: http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/ It is a Linux based network media centre with a fully featured scaler, internet video streamer, plays every sort of SD & HD media file off a PC or NAS, can hold a HDD, includes myiHome Media server and costs £99. Best gadget I have ever bought - getting hold of one is a different matter as people are even selling their place in the queue on eBay!

Anyway, what do I need to run on TiVo to be able to access it and stream data to the Popcorn Hour? This means I could use the PH to scale and use it as the media centre.

[6022tivo]

It's great. I have the Xbox set to 720p rather than 1080i. The only issue is that the BIOS is hardwired for 60Hz rather than 50Hz. To be honest, I only notice it when the credits scroll.

I use ccxstream on the TiVo. I browse to it on the XBMC and can see the (alphabetical) list of what's in Now Playing.

You can also use the TivoX plugin which gives you a slightly nicer UI into TiVo.

Let me know if you want any help setting it up.

I could never get it to stream quick enough?? Maybe my network..

I take it this is a old xbox app only, and not for the xbox 360?

[Raisltin Majere]

It's great. I have the Xbox set to 720p rather than 1080i. The only issue is that the BIOS is hardwired for 60Hz rather than 50Hz. To be honest, I only notice it when the credits scroll.

I use ccxstream on the TiVo. I browse to it on the XBMC and can see the (alphabetical) list of what's in Now Playing.

You can also use the TivoX plugin which gives you a slightly nicer UI into TiVo.

Let me know if you want any help setting it up.

Hi Terry

I currently stream tivo to the bedroom using XBMC (with TivoX) so I should be okay with that.

Where I may struggle is the scaling part - I think I recall from ChrisD that you need to change a setting to NTSC (or the locale to the states or something) and then do some other stuff.

I'll probably start a thread in off topic when I get around to doing it, I would appreciate your help if you spot the thread :)

Thanks

[laurence@key2.co]

How do you connect a TiVo by HDMI?

Everyone else's ideas sound much more exciting than what I do. I just have an RGB to HDMI convertor sitting behind the tivo. That sends 720P HDMI to an HDMI amplifier that distributes it around the house. Minimal setting up and works fine.

[dvdfever]

It's great. I have the Xbox set to 720p rather than 1080i. The only issue is that the BIOS is hardwired for 60Hz rather than 50Hz. To be honest, I only notice it when the credits scroll.

I use ccxstream on the TiVo. I browse to it on the XBMC and can see the (alphabetical) list of what's in Now Playing.

You can also use the TivoX plugin which gives you a slightly nicer UI into TiVo.

Let me know if you want any help setting it up.

I had no idea this was possible and I'd love to know more. I've found the TiVoX plugin and I've downloaded it, but I've never tried altering my rc.sysinit file so it runs it automatically on bootup and I see I need TiVoWeb 1.9.4 (I'm on 1.3.1) and the http://tivo.lightn.org site appears to be dead :(

I have two Xboxs with XBMC and I use them to stream .avi or .mpg files regularly as they're so handy. I'd buy ones for other rooms if it meant I could do this with as much ease as watching the TiVo normally. Thanks for the info.

[dvdfever]

Change of plan - it's TiVoWebPlus 1.3.1 I've got, so that's fine.

Just need to know precisely how to deal with the TiVoX thing (whether I transfer the ccxstream .tar compressed file or extract that first, etc). Ta muchly.

[Raisltin Majere]

I can't remember exactly what I did. But I don;t see that it would make a difference if you extract vefore or after transfer.

If you go to the other place, they have a subforum (I think) for xbox, one of the threads there contains a link to step by step instructions

[ciper]

A few years back there was a very popular application that you would run on your PC that would perform high quality video optimization, usually for DVD movies. The users would then output a higher resolution video to a large screen and the results were far better than even high end upscaling dvd players.

I cannot remember the name of the software but I know it still exists. What if you were to run the Tivo video through it then out to your screen? I'm positive the results would be great.

Can anyone remember the name? It was very popular on the AVS forums.

[Cainam]

DScaler ?

[Trinitron]

We swapped our 'old' 32" Philips analogue set for a 26" Panasonic LXD70 and the Tivo picture on Mode 0 seems much closer to the pass-through version, particularly sports programmes. Whether paying extra for the LXD version with its reduced motion blur contributes to this I'm not sure but it's certainly worth it in general viewing.

[ciper]

DScaler ?

Thats it! I couldn't remember for the life of me and a google search was useless.

[terryeden]

Where I may struggle is the scaling part - I think I recall from ChrisD that you need to change a setting to NTSC (or the locale to the states or something) and then do some other stuff.

I'll probably start a thread in off topic when I get around to doing it, I would appreciate your help if you spot the thread :)

I don't follow the OT board - so PM me if you want any help.

Basically, it's a four step process.
1) Get a component cable for the Xbox
2) Change the BIOS to NTSC (there's a bit of software to do this - a search will find it)
3) In the Xbox Dashboard (not XBMC) go to video settings and enable 720p (and 1080i if you want)
4) In XBMC, go to video settings page and select your desired resolution.

Hey presto, everything upscaled.

It probably doesn't do as great a job as a multi-thousand pound scaler. But I use it to watch torrented shows like 24 on a 92inch screen and I'm very happy with the results.

[terryeden]

I could never get it to stream quick enough?? Maybe my network..

I take it this is a old xbox app only, and not for the xbox 360?

Yup - only for the original Xbox.

The network should be fast enough - it's only a couple of MB a second to do real time streaming. My cachecard and Xbox were both plugged into the same 10/100 switch.

One thing I've noticed is that playback on the TiVo while it's streaming to somewhere else is too much for it to cope with.

[Raisltin Majere]

I don't follow the OT board - so PM me if you want any help.

Cool, that's very kind. Thankyou

Basically, it's a four step process.
1) Get a component cable for the Xbox
2) Change the BIOS to NTSC (there's a bit of software to do this - a search will find it)
3) In the Xbox Dashboard (not XBMC) go to video settings and enable 720p (and 1080i if you want)
4) In XBMC, go to video settings page and select your desired resolution.

Hey presto, everything upscaled.

Sounds pretty straightforward, I think I have that software you mention, I'll check when I get home.

Thanks again

[mccg]

I have one of these: http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/ It is a Linux based network media centre with a fully featured scaler, internet video streamer, plays every sort of SD & HD media file off a PC or NAS, can hold a HDD, includes myiHome Media server and costs £99. Best gadget I have ever bought - getting hold of one is a different matter as people are even selling their place in the queue on eBay!

Anyway, what do I need to run on TiVo to be able to access it and stream data to the Popcorn Hour? This means I could use the PH to scale and use it as the media centre.

Me too... My PopcornHour arrived last week, and it would be great to be able to access my Tivo shows through it - it seems to have an excellent scaler, and is easy to switch between 50/60Hz.

I haven't used "the other place" in years, but would love to know how to stream stuff from the Tivo.

[rilian]

Everyone else's ideas sound much more exciting than what I do. I just have an RGB to HDMI convertor sitting behind the tivo. That sends 720P HDMI to an HDMI amplifier that distributes it around the house. Minimal setting up and works fine.

Thanks for the test for my original question, appreciated. This sounds more relevant to me than the exotic technology some folks are using; what product are you using for this? Is it effectively scart to the HDMI converter, then distribution, so I'd want a good SCART splitter that doesn't spoil the signal, as well, or lose access to the living room TV (currently analogue, no plans to update it yet).

Is it essential to have all the HDMI destinations at the same resolution? I'm thinking a small bedroom screen could be a problem if I upgrade the living room TV to flatscreen, which will probably want 1280p. If things could be different resolutions, not a concern of course.

thanks

Chris

[TCM2007]

HDMI is not ideal for distribution; amp, cables and connectors are very expensive, especially very long ones and you will be talking hundreds of pounds at least. And yes you are limited to everything having the same resolution (it's a digital signal). It also puts the TiVo's signal through yet another analogue to digital conversion, and you're relying on the upscaling of the RGB to HDMI box, which might not be the best.

[laurence@key2.co]

HDMI is not ideal for distribution; amp, cables and connectors are very expensive, especially very long ones and you will be talking hundreds of pounds at least. And yes you are limited to everything having the same resolution (it's a digital signal). It also puts the TiVo's signal through yet another analogue to digital conversion, and you're relying on the upscaling of the RGB to HDMI box, which might not be the best.

Having done it...
Agreed, it's not the cheapest option. I did it because it's likely to be reasonably future proof - for me anyway. The RGB to HDMI adaptor I got is this one (http://www.cypuk.com/cyp_techpage.php?product=280&&parent). That was just over £100. Then I ran an HDMI cable to a 4 way distribution amplifier (£150 now, they were a more when I got mine a year ago) - this one (http://www.lektropacks.com/view_product_standard.php?product=136&sub1=62&show=62). TCM2007 is right - some HDMI distro boxes handshake with the first screen, then send the same resolution to all the others - which is annoying. Some of them only work if the first output is on (since otherwise they can't handshake) - which is even more annoying. With the one I got, it handshakes with any screens that are connected independently as you switch them on, so neither is an issue.
Then just the cables which I think can be up to 15m each side of the distro (I suppose you could add repeaters if your house is really really big).
I used to run tivo into my projector via an RGB/component adaptor. Not much in it, but if anything the HDMI looks better. I guess that might have as much to do with the way the projector handles the HDMI as anything.
I watch tivo on 3 different sized/res LCD screens and a projector - all work perfectly at native resolutions.

[laurence@key2.co]

Thanks for the test for my original question, appreciated. This sounds more relevant to me than the exotic technology some folks are using; what product are you using for this? Is it effectively scart to the HDMI converter, then distribution, so I'd want a good SCART splitter that doesn't spoil the signal, as well, or lose access to the living room TV (currently analogue, no plans to update it yet).

Is it essential to have all the HDMI destinations at the same resolution? I'm thinking a small bedroom screen could be a problem if I upgrade the living room TV to flatscreen, which will probably want 1280p. If things could be different resolutions, not a concern of course.

thanks

Chris

Yes, I used to split the scart when I distributed the signal in other ways. Didn't cause any problem. Resolution isn't a problem as long as you buy the right box. I think mine's only good for 1080i - but that's way higher than tivo outputs anyway. The RGB to HDMI I got is 720P - again, as much as you need for tivo. With mode 0 I get a really nice picture - even with the projector.

[TCM2007]

I watch tivo on 3 different sized/res LCD screens and a projector - all work perfectly at native resolutions.

Not simultaneously they won't. If all the TVs are HD ready and you run everything at 1080i, then you'll get a picture from all the screens, but it can't send a 720p signal to one TV, a 1080i to another an a 576i to a third - there is only one signal to send.

With HDMI distribution you've also got the problem of the lack of a back channel to control the source box from the remote TV.

Overall, networked media streamers offer more flexibility, are cheaper all things considered, don't require cabling, and offer higher quality by keeping video data in its orginal format with no conversions until you reach the TV.

I'd use HDMI for in--a single room systems, like having both a plasma and a projector wired up in a home cinema, but to distrbiute around the house it's expensive and compromised, especially when you start introducing devices which use HDCP.

Having said that, I've seen a really nice 4 x 4 HDMI matrixer which distributes over CAT6 and has a back channel. Cost $4,000 though!

[laurence@key2.co]

I can't believe I've bothered to do this... But I've turned all the Tvs on. They're all displaying a perfectly good 16:9 image. The TiVo outputs 576i anyway doesn't it? So one way or another it'll need converting.
Networked media streamers do have advantages - and clearly you prefer them, but it's horses for courses. I thought long and hard about going that route, but decided to go for the HDMI solution for future compatibility and simplicity. I've just bought an ARCAM solo movies which I can plug straight in for example. In terms of pic quality, streaming from the tivo you're limited anyway - unsurprisingly the ARCAM looks stacks better.
Streaming media is probably the way forward, but it's not for me.
Controlling the tivo is easy. I use an AA battery transmitter that sends RF to a reciever at the TiVo so I can use the original remote. No extra wires as it's RF.

[TCM2007]

Sure, horses for courses is right.

I didn't doubt all your TVs would give a picture - it was the "native resolution" bit I was querying.

[laurence@key2.co]

Sure, horses for courses is right.

I didn't doubt all your TVs would give a picture - it was the "native resolution" bit I was querying.

Oh, I see. It's not been an issue in any case. All the screens have a higher native res than tivo can do, so they'd have to convert it even if it was plugged straight in via RGB (unless I put up with big black borders).

Streaming is an interesting option...
Presumably you need an xbox or something feeding each screen? If that's the case, can you stream different recordings to each screen simultaneously? And if you're viewing full quality mode 0, at what point does bandwidth become a problem?
You said before that streaming doesn't need cabling. So do you use wifi?