Would you / will you dump Cable + Tivo becase of SDV

[cab2]

I've been active in a few other threads here, but thought it might be time for a quick poll. I live in the Austin TX. TWC area and we have one of the largest SDV lists in the country as far as i know (about 125 to 150 channels). I'm considering very strongly the switch to D* (my preference) but there is also Dish Netowrk.

So, would you / will you, switch to a sat. provider based prmarily on the fact of SDV and not being able to get all the channels that your cable company offers because you use cable card in the new S3 series tivos.

Full disclosure:
There is a SDV Dongle coming. But when. Last word was Q2 but nothing since then. Given that Q2 is just a bout here, I have my doubts. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised.

I have 3 tivos. 1 S2 is in storage and not used. 1 S2 in the bedroom, and 1 S3 (thx) in the living room hooked up to the big screen. I have lot's of $$ invested in Tivo right now.

I'm a huge Tivo fan, and the only thing holding me to cable right now, is Tivo. But I really want the HD I can't get because of SDV.

[ZeoTiVo]

why not try out an digital OTA antenna and then drop whatever tier is being provided to you for free and probably in better quality than cable and certainly better quality than Sat.?


Be sure to tell the cable company it is SDV that is causing you to drop a teir or cable completely. That will spur them on to get the dongle out.

[cab2]

why not try out an digital OTA antenna and then drop whatever tier is being provided to you for free and probably in better quality than cable and certainly better quality than Sat.?


Be sure to tell the cable company it is SDV that is causing you to drop a teir or cable completely. That will spur them on to get the dongle out.

yup, thought of that already. Unfortunately, the HD channels I want are not off the air channels, they are sat / cable channels. I almost never watch the primetime national channels.

And you can bet i will let twc know why I drop them when it comes to that. I'm hoping to find sometime this week to call them and ask about the dongle, but knowing the folks you get on the other end of the phone line, I don't expect much. In the times I have called, I've gotten really good people, maybe once or twice out of 15 or 20 calls over the years.

[MickeS]

You forgot the option "I've already done it."

I had the HD package from TWC, but dumped it when they kept adding channels I couldn't receive.

EDIT: oh, I misunderstood the question. I have only "dumped" the cable programming - I still use cable + TiVo, just decided to not subscribe to their HD programming any longer.

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm hoping to find sometime this week to call them and ask about the dongle, but knowing the folks you get on the other end of the phone line, I don't expect much. In the times I have called, I've gotten really good people, maybe once or twice out of 15 or 20 calls over the years.

I am sorry, but I can not find a Mr. Dongle in our compny directory :D

[cab2]

I am sorry, but I can not find a Mr. Dongle in our compny directory :D

It's sad, but I can definately see that one happening. :) Now granted, all the csr's are certainly not that bad, but um, yea, some of them are.

[sommerfeld]

If all else failed I'd dump cable & keep the tivo.

[ZeoTiVo]

It's sad, but I can definately see that one happening. :) Now granted, all the csr's are certainly not that bad, but um, yea, some of them are.
I called the phone company about ISDN way back when and they actually replied with "There is no Mr. ISDN" when I said "I am calling to ask about ISDN" The person had that total lack of knowledge on it and the phone company did indeed offer it at the time.

So calling the cable 800 number for SDV dongle is very likley more miss than hit at this stage of the game.

[lew]

I have FiOS. They have no present plans to deploy SDV technology so I'm not voting.

Almost all the shows I record are networks shows, movies shown on channels such as SHO and occasionally a show on Discovery or the Travel Channel. None of those stations are likely to be moved to SDV.

How many of us only have one TV set? It makes sense to have a cable supplied box on at least one set. PPV, SDV and VOD don't work with a tivo S3 box.

[sommerfeld]

How many of us only have one TV set? It makes sense to have a cable supplied box on at least one set. PPV, SDV and VOD don't work with a tivo S3 box.
I only have one TV set hooked up at the moment, and no cableco-supplied boxes.

IMHO I don't see the point in having a box I never used plugged in, consuming a splitter port, and turned on all the time -- I never use PPV or VOD and if SDV became too much of a hassle I'd ditch the cableco.

[ZeoTiVo]

series 4 is certainly at least a year or more off but will fix the whole SDV/PPV/VOD issue by enabling it on a 3rd party TiVo. Some may be staying put with that in mind as well.

Would be nice to hear something about SDV but it is in cable cos. hands and not TiVo inc's. :(

[msdonnelly]

Here in Del Rio, TX it doesn't seem that Switched video is going to be a problem for a long time. Of course there is no OTA signal for 150 miles so that will never be a solution. Since I have about 50% of the TW cable cards in town and have yet to find anyone who can properly authorize them I accept what I can get on my S3--I receive absolutely none of the truly digital channels with the exception of the remapped but unscrabled network HD and ESPN HD (Of course I haven't received CW since Paramount & the WB merged more than a year ago and the San Antonio Fox station is low power so TW feels unobligated to carry their HD signal!)
It's fun living in the middle of no where!

[ZeoTiVo]

Here in Del Rio, TX it doesn't seem that Switched video is going to be a problem

It's fun living in the middle of no where!
talk about the end of the cable :eek:

[edrock200]

series 4 is certainly at least a year or more off but will fix the whole SDV/PPV/VOD issue by enabling it on a 3rd party TiVo. Some may be staying put with that in mind as well.

Would be nice to hear something about SDV but it is in cable cos. hands and not TiVo inc's. :(

Theres also the possibility of continued partnerships among Tivo and the cable companies directly, such as the recent DVR box comcast is delivering that is powered by Tivo software. I heard that pilot isn't going great so far but its a start.

[ZeoTiVo]

Theres also the possibility of continued partnerships among Tivo and the cable companies directly, such as the recent DVR box comcast is delivering that is powered by Tivo software. I heard that pilot isn't going great so far but its a start.

certainly further along than the TiVo-Dish product ;)

The OP did kind of nail it when he said would you jump to DBS if you had no way to get SDV channels. OF course he did overlook FIOS for those lucky enough to have that option.

[orangeboy]

I would drop my current cable company (CFL BHN) if FIOS were available to me. OTA isn't a very good alternative for me either, but I'm better off than the poor guy in Del Rio, Texas!

[Mobocracy]

The missing option is "go back to my Series2 + IR emitter + Cable Box". Through the magic of multiple inputs and connections I can record HD as SD and watch it in HD in "real time" with digital audio.

Satellite is a non-starter here due to LoS issues (which are more theoretical than proven), lack of a good mounting point (real) and no decent cabling options, as my inside-the-house cable plant can't really support satellite signal distribution as I understand it.

The other option is to kind of give up on all of it all together, do more shooting, more Netflix and just watch less TV. DVD releases end up being kind of a natural bullshoot filter for what's half-good on TV anyway.

[edrock200]

certainly further along than the TiVo-Dish product ;)

The OP did kind of nail it when he said would you jump to DBS if you had no way to get SDV channels. OF course he did overlook FIOS for those lucky enough to have that option.

Yeah...my first experience with Tivo HD was with FiOS (my current setup.) Prior to that I had DirecTV HD Tivo's. Seeing how great it worked I began preaching Tivo HD's to all my friends and family but I must admit I recently stopped. Seeing all the issues with Cox and Comcast in my area from SDV to channels that just won't show up even though they aren't on SDV to cards randomly dying etc etc. These are all issues I never experienced with FiOS, so I thought my experience was "the norm."

Hopefully that SDV box will come out soon. I'm guessing though that many of these issues won't be resolved until tivo 4. IMO many cable card systems just weren't ready for prime time. FiOS seems to be doing well less the lack of M-Cards and the pixelation issue that requires attenuators.

Regardless, for all those SDV users out there (and for Tivo's sake), I'm keeping my fingers crossed that a solution comes quick.

[sinanju]

The fiber is outside my house waiting for splicers to come along and light it up. I'll jump from Comcast to FiOS the second it's ready -- not just because of SDV but also because of the 3-HD-Channels/QAM crap Comcast is pulling.

Both are hacks to buy time. In the end, twisted pair couldn't stand up to coax and coax will likewise fail in the face of fiber.

[cab2]

I have FiOS. They have no present plans to deploy SDV technology so I'm not voting.

Almost all the shows I record are networks shows, movies shown on channels such as SHO and occasionally a show on Discovery or the Travel Channel. None of those stations are likely to be moved to SDV.

How many of us only have one TV set? It makes sense to have a cable supplied box on at least one set. PPV, SDV and VOD don't work with a tivo S3 box.


In my best Homer Simpson "ooooh FIOSSSS" drool and all! Grin. I wish I could get FIOS here. I'd snap that up in less than a heartbeat. They have no need for SDV. With that fibre, it will be a long time before they have bandwidth issues. I have a buddy that works in Verizon in the Dallas area, he apparently works in the bld, where they do a lot of (all?) the FIOS testing. He drools too! He can't get it by just a few blocks where he lives. I get all the juicy dirt on Fios and what it can do, from him. Fiber is definately the way to go.

[mdbundy]

TWC hasn't moved to SDV in my area (near Cleveland, OH) but I understand that it's coming (this month). I'm quite torn, actually.

I love my Tivo HD (had two S2 boxes before this) -- especially for watching streamed video from my PC. I'm really seriously considering switching to OTA and dropping cable TV (will keep TWC for cable modem). SDV may be the straw that broke the camels back.

We watch mostly network TV, and I'm sure we can download (unbox, etc.) most of the other content we would want and still be ahead.

I'll add, b/c I'm curious if anyone else feels this way -- I don't think I want a dongle in my TV cabinet. I already have too much stuff (cable modem, router, voip, ups). The reason I switched to Tivo in the first place (way back when) was (at least partially) to get away from trash cableco hardware. And if TWC ends up charging for the dongle... There would have to be a LOT of content on SDV for this to make any sense for me, and I'd probably sooner just drop them out of protest.

[magnus]

+1

why not try out an digital OTA antenna and then drop whatever tier is being provided to you for free and probably in better quality than cable and certainly better quality than Sat.?


Be sure to tell the cable company it is SDV that is causing you to drop a teir or cable completely. That will spur them on to get the dongle out.

[routerman]

The missing option is "go back to my Series2 + IR emitter + Cable Box". Through the magic of multiple inputs and connections I can record HD as SD and watch it in HD in "real time" with digital audio.

This is exactly what I do. If I really want to watch HD (sports, Lost, etc..) I usually make time to watch it live.

The thing scaring me the most is not the SDV dongle. It will, most likely be late to the party....but it probably will show up.

The real concern I have is the copy flag hanging over the horizon. HBO is probably just the first of many programmers to invoke copy protection to this level. Historically, they usually lead the pack in implementing new technologies:

1975 - First on Satellite
1986 - First to scramble their signal
1999 - First to broadcast in HD
2008 - First (probably the first of many) to invoke copy protection flag to limit time-shifting programs.

It will be nice when the tuner resolver is available. I will finally purchase an HD Tivo. I just hope my recording options will not be severely limited.

[Combat Medic]

In my best Homer Simpson "ooooh FIOSSSS" drool and all! Grin. I wish I could get FIOS here. I'd snap that up in less than a heartbeat. They have no need for SDV. With that fibre, it will be a long time before they have bandwidth issues. I have a buddy that works in Verizon in the Dallas area, he apparently works in the bld, where they do a lot of (all?) the FIOS testing. He drools too! He can't get it by just a few blocks where he lives. I get all the juicy dirt on Fios and what it can do, from him. Fiber is definately the way to go.

I actually mailed a letter to Verizion begging them to bring FiOS to San Antonio.

-Mike

[jamesweber]

The real concern I have is the copy flag hanging over the horizon. HBO is probably just the first of many programmers to invoke copy protection to this level. Historically, they usually lead the pack in implementing new technologies

From reading most threads It seems like most cable company's are doing the flagging, I have Brighthouse and they have flagged every single digital and HD channel regardless of where or not the show calls for it.

Just another reason why I hate Cable Company's. They are the Devil!!!

From what I've read FIOS doesn't flag any of their channels, God I wish I had a choice here in Orlando

[MichaelK]

This is exactly what I do. If I really want to watch HD (sports, Lost, etc..) I usually make time to watch it live.

The thing scaring me the most is not the SDV dongle. It will, most likely be late to the party....but it probably will show up.

The real concern I have is the copy flag hanging over the horizon. HBO is probably just the first of many programmers to invoke copy protection to this level. Historically, they usually lead the pack in implementing new technologies:

1975 - First on Satellite
1986 - First to scramble their signal
1999 - First to broadcast in HD
2008 - First (probably the first of many) to invoke copy protection flag to limit time-shifting programs.

It will be nice when the tuner resolver is available. I will finally purchase an HD Tivo. I just hope my recording options will not be severely limited.


I live in a place where the headend has decided to flag every single digital channel (besides the re-broadcast locals). It's really not that big a deal to ME personally. It only limits the ability to MRV/TTG. Like the average bear much of what we watch comes on the local channels so it's not flagged. I have a second S3 in the bedroom so MRV isn't so critical- we do need to spend some effort to make sure if there are conflicts and we want a bunch of shows on both boxes to prioritize the flagged stuff and then split the boradcast network stuff up. It's a pain but workable. (for example I put the games i want on the HD RSN which is flagged high in the list so both tivo's get it then split the boradcast network content). TTG would be nice but personally again I can live without it. Hopefully one day it all gets worked out where the stupid 0x02 annoys enough people that it stops being used wholesale like this. But until then I can suck it up.

So to me- SDV without a dongle on any of the channels important to me would be a much bigger deal then this flag silliness that my provider insists upon...

[Joybob]

Is there any chance of them opening up more QAM channels for cable operators? More bandwidth so they don't have to resort to SDV?

[MichaelK]

Is there any chance of them opening up more QAM channels for cable operators? More bandwidth so they don't have to resort to SDV?

each cable headend has a particular bandwidth that can fit on their wire with the hardware setup they own. There's no one handing out or "opening up" more channels. I think older plants were 550 mhz. Rebuilt ones are usually 750 if I understand. Newer rebuilt are like 870. And some might go to 1,000.

From there basically each rf channel is 6mhz. In that channel they can fit ONE analog channel. Or a qam channel. Each qam channel can fit something like 2 high quality HD channels and an SD channel, 3 squished HD channels, or maybe 12-15 sd channels (not sure there), or some combination of those. So it's up to each individual head end how to allocate what space they have. THe long term solution is to ditch analog and convert that to qam. But the problem is you piss off analog subs (or digital subs that have some tv's without boxes for the basic analog tier) everytime you take an analog channel to add a qam channel. You could also rebuild your system with more bandwidth but that costs a ton. So the real world solution appears to be using SDV which permits you to take just a few channels and reuse those over and over so you piss of the least amount of analog subs while still adding HD for the high end subs to keep them happy. Unfortunately first generation cablecard customers loose.

they also need to set aside some channels for broadband and voip, as well as PPV and VOD. But in a nut shell it's a battle between analog and HD at the moment and SDV allows the best of both worlds for many cable providers. Also long term even if you go all digital qam at some point it's thought a 750, 870 or even a 1,000 mhz system might no longer be enough when there are many more HD channels. So a move to SDV is a good thing in cable's mind to give some future proofing at least for a while.

[tivo-macrbg]

I just dumped DishTV so that TWC-Austin could provide me HD that i could record with a new tivo-hd. I'm disappointed. No one told me about SDV. The installer said, oh that's a problem with your cable to the house i'll be back sometime during the week to replace it.

he didn't -- the other guy just looked at the TWC-Box and replaced the connectors. Did not look at the tivo-hd and said 'oh, the cabelcard use different channels' ...

so which are the SDV channels ??

[cab2]

I just dumped DishTV so that TWC-Austin could provide me HD that i could record with a new tivo-hd. I'm disappointed. No one told me about SDV. The installer said, oh that's a problem with your cable to the house i'll be back sometime during the week to replace it.

he didn't -- the other guy just looked at the TWC-Box and replaced the connectors. Did not look at the tivo-hd and said 'oh, the cabelcard use different channels' ...

so which are the SDV channels ??

Grin, that was part of the reason I started this thread. I'm in the TWC Austin area myself (as long as your talking about texas). TWC here is one of the largest users of SDV that I have heard about. If you scan the TWC cable thread in this forum, you will find the list of TWC Austin channels that are SDV. I think there are over 100 of them. Granted, some of that is special subscription type channels, but there are a LOT of SDV channels in Austin. I have not pulled the plug yet on TWC and Tivo, but I'm sitting on the fence trying to not fall off. I love my tivo, twc, not so much. I think soon, I will have to decide what side of the fence to jump off on. I saw a good price on the DTV pro21 receiver at Costco this weekend, and almost pulled the plug right then and there.

Right now, I have plans to be up at a friends house in Dallas in a couple weeks and he has DTV and their dvr. I plan on taking a good long look. The one thing i have not been able to find in the stores is a DTV DVR hooked up and working that I can play with and see how much of a difference the interface is from my beloved tivo. I know it will be worse, but I'd like to see and play with it a bit before I make my decission.

cab

[TonyD79]

I use my Tivo 99% for local HD and SD from an adjacent market, which will probably stay non-SDV. Right now, I get only 1 HD channel on Comcast I don't get on DirecTV (AMC) and I don't like the stretchy and the commercials, sooooo, I am not too concerned about SDV right now.

[cab2]

Just a follow up since I was the OP for this thread / poll. It looks like I'm going to make the move to Direct TV. I was at a buddies this weekend and got some good time to work with his DTV DVR. I was expecting a huge downgrade / bad experiance compared to my tivo. The DTV DVR, is certainly no tivo, but it aint as bad as I expected it would be. I also noticed that the HD picture on DTV sure looks better than what I am seeing on TWC in Austin. Big difference. Add the fact of the number of HD channels available to view, and it gets me to the point, that I guess it's time to move.

I have not pulled the plug yet, but I will most likely do so within the next few weeks. I needed to check things out on the Sat. side, before I made my choice. Now I have, and TWC will lose me. I'm hearing that the Tunning Adapter / Resolver is getting closer(?), but as far as I know, TWC has not said a thing about having one in house and working on it. I figure once they get one, we are still looking at several months before the general customer will be able to get one. Too long for me. I have nothing against my Tivo, love it. But TWC bungled it this time by switching so many of my channels to SDV and leaving me no option.

Just my .02.

[wildjoe]

I'm TiVo HD OTA and Unbox (and iTunes for the Daily Show, I really wish Amazon would get that).

My cable company was not SDV, but they only had two HD channels beyond the broadcast networks that I cared to watch (ESPNHD and FSNHD). Paying all that money per month for those two channels and Comedy Central in SD just wasn't worth it.

I too, got to play with their HD DVR (over the holidays at my Sister's place) and was shocked to see the number of HD channels she got. That's when I decided to tell my cable company to take a hike. However... I can't get DTV because I live in a condo and my unit faces north. No place for the dish.

The truth is, I record more shows OTA/Unbox than I have time to watch as it is.

So no, I ain't givin' up my TiVo.

[hmm52]

In my best Homer Simpson "ooooh FIOSSSS" drool and all! Grin. I wish I could get FIOS here. I'd snap that up in less than a heartbeat. They have no need for SDV. With that fibre, it will be a long time before they have bandwidth issues. I have a buddy that works in Verizon in the Dallas area, he apparently works in the bld, where they do a lot of (all?) the FIOS testing. He drools too! He can't get it by just a few blocks where he lives. I get all the juicy dirt on Fios and what it can do, from him. Fiber is definately the way to go.

It's not my intent to throw a wet blanket on your enthusiasm for FiOS but there are some real questions about it for TiVo users in the not so distant future. I've been very satisfied generally with FiOS since 11/06 even though I'm served by the Phila. VZ home office, notorious for signal issues - maybe out of courtesy to Comcast's headquarters here. The S3 has had a lot more difficulty with VZ's signal than 4 other ccQAM devices I've owned much longer. Mostly restricted to seldom watched channels fortunately.

Verizon certainly has plenty of bandwidth to greatly increase their HD/SD offerings. Adding QAMs to VHOs and central offices would not be difficult, or expensive compared to the costs of expanding their network. But that is not the path they've chosen long term. From what I've read, VZ expects to have fully established IPTV as their system by 2010.

Theoretically current & future TiVos could function with VZ's IPTV if the two companies worked together to enable it. But Verizon tends to do things their own way, with less regard for standards and partnerships in comparison to other providers. I doubt that Verizon much considers 3rd party devices in their planning.

Check last 6 paragraphs: http://ntsblog.burtongroup.com/network_and_telecom_strat/2007/10/tough-decision.html

FiOS is pretty good in its current form. Copy protection 0X00 for all channels (through Phila. VHO anyway) is appreciated. Horizon 2-3 years out looks different. Best route may indeed be to routinely switch between providers as their strategies change.

[wdave]

Yes, I would dump Cable and switch to Fios. Already have, in fact.

No poll choice for me.

[cab2]

grin! yup, oversight on my part that I didn't list fios as an option on the poll. The buddy of mine that i mentioned above works for Verizon in the dallas area somewhere. He is not directly involved in the fios stuff, but tells me that they do a majority of the testing for that, in the building he works in. He unfortunately, does not have fios at home because his area is not turned on. Wired, but not turned on. Some land owner dispute / palm out for large sums of cash thing. He's bummed. He has seen what it can do, and what they are testing for the future.

I can't speak to the tivo on fios, since I never looked into that. In my area, as far as I know, it's TWC, or TWC, or TWC. some thing about only 1 cable company per area. grrrr. Although ATT is starting to roll out there thing, hmmm.

for me at this point, I've pretty much made my choice, just need to figure out what my up front costs are going to be, any deals or specials I can get, and then schedule it. I should save a few (10 to 20?) bucks a month, get a bunch more HD channels, but I'll lose my Tivo. sniff, sniff.

Once I do make the switch, I'll still hope for maybe being able to use some kind of a tivo s4 or s5 in a few years. Course by then, who knows, maybe it will be a MS or Apple or some other companies product. I do see tivo being gobbled up by someone, in the future. Esp. now that the law suit is pretty much a done deal and they have a pretty good club to work with. To me, the value of Tivo the company is going up with the law suit coming to a close.

[yunlin12]

Will dump cable, keep Tivo and go OTA.

[mklitt]

When the cable guy was here today, he said that Time Warner has a service (QPS?) for $3.99 per month which allows you to call and get immediate service. But I thought, what is the good of paying to jump the queue (other than saving a half hour of my time) when I am still going to get someone clueless on the other end of the phone? Now if I knew I was paying to get someone competent that would be different!

But I can't expect that from a company that did not tell its tech guys that my Tivo HD cable cards had ceased to work because of the switch to SDV. He found out after spending 3 hours trying to make them work! I had three Time Warner cable trucks parked outside . ..

[lrhorer]

Why would I choose any of those options? They are all either foolish or unreasonable. I'm going to do what any intelligent individual should do in this situation: I'm going to wait and see. Eventually there will be some solution superior to the current mess. When that option is clear and well entrenched, I'll move to it. Until then, the current solution offers me the best available compromise available at this time in my market.