DeskTop is a Scam

[Testpattern]

Let me start by saying I love my TiVo's and have been a loyal TiVo fan since the start. But after a year of trying to simply copy a recorded program from my S3 utilizing DeskTop I've concluded it just plain worthless... why you say?

Initially it didn't work and was bug laden but new revs cured most aliments.

Then I discovered it's ability to transfer and display "actual" HD photographs.. well, simply didn't exist. This was after hours of tweaking the wireless system to make it happy and finally gutting it and moving to a hard wired implementation. Which by the way required I compromise other aspects of our home system to accommodate some of DeskTops transfer limitations.

Finally, we were able to transfer and receive recordings with reasonable resolution in a tolerable period of time. But in order to record effectively to DVD we had to invest in some additional software to supplement the non-stand DeskTop format. It did work as advertised so finally we were able to record a program captured previously... almost.

It seems most programs are now copy protected and restricted by TiVo/DeskTop so you can't do anything with them. Initially this wasn't a major headache since 1 of 5 were blocked but now it's more like 4 of 5.

So... Now it works as intended but you can't do anything with it...
What good is that?

We're now stepping back to see if there's a totally different path for achieving the objective of recording TiVo recordings to disc. I'm not expecting HD quality and recognize it's way early in the game for this, at least from a cost effective perspective.

So how do the rest of you do this?

Do standalone DVRs copy anything TiVo grabs if connected via something other than HDMI?

Does the TiVo or programming copy protection mechanisms prevent even basic transfers at DVD PQ?

Help...

[ah30k]

First off, what is the scam? Inflammatory (and wrong to boot) posts rarely get the desired effect.

Secondly, if you cable provider is inappropriately setting the CCI flags and preventing you from moving content to your PC then that is a cable company problem not TiVo. Check the CCI flag on the channels you are talking about and report back on what it says.

Thirdly, burning DVDs was never on the list of features for TiVo Desktop so I don't know why you are complaining. You've learned of third party software packages to get the job done so what is your complaint?

[MickeS]

I'm unclear too what the actual complaint is.

But yes, digital recordings (HD or SD) can be marked by the cable company as "not allowed to be transfered". It's up to the content copyright holder to decide, but many cable companies set the restriction even if the copyright holder doesn't require it. TiVo, unfortunately, is required to follow these settings.

Not much to do about it unfortunately, except you can tell you're cable company to verify that they need to set this restriction, for future recordings.

[dig_duggler]

Bad post title.

However, I agree that transfers (both the desktop and MRV) are pretty much useless to me at this point as almost every non-network is flagged. And telling my cc about anything cable card related is both painful and (most of the times) pointless. After some of the other fights I've had to have, I'm just not willing to put the time and effort into this issue to even try and have it resolved (which is no guarantee).

[orangeboy]

I'm just not willing to put the time and effort into this issue to even try and have it resolved (which is no guarantee).

That's the spirit! :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

Yeah, it stinks. Whatever it is, it just stinks.:p:D

[TexasGrillChef]

Let me start by saying I love my TiVo's and have been a loyal TiVo fan since the start. But after a year of trying to simply copy a recorded program from my S3 utilizing DeskTop I've concluded it just plain worthless... why you say?

Initially it didn't work and was bug laden but new revs cured most aliments.

Then I discovered it's ability to transfer and display "actual" HD photographs.. well, simply didn't exist. This was after hours of tweaking the wireless system to make it happy and finally gutting it and moving to a hard wired implementation. Which by the way required I compromise other aspects of our home system to accommodate some of DeskTops transfer limitations.

Finally, we were able to transfer and receive recordings with reasonable resolution in a tolerable period of time. But in order to record effectively to DVD we had to invest in some additional software to supplement the non-stand DeskTop format. It did work as advertised so finally we were able to record a program captured previously... almost.


Wired network connections are always better then wireless. While running
ethernet cable can be a pain & be expensive. You always get what you pay for. You want the best, you have to pay for it.


It seems most programs are now copy protected and restricted by TiVo/DeskTop so you can't do anything with them. Initially this wasn't a major headache since 1 of 5 were blocked but now it's more like 4 of 5.

So... Now it works as intended but you can't do anything with it...
What good is that?


The Copy protection & restrictions are NOT TiVo's fault. That is the fault of the copy right owner, cable system, &/or channel that originally broadcast the show.

HBO for exampble, wants ALL cable systems to mark their entire broadcasts with 0x02. Thats the wish of HBO. Not TiVo.

So there won't be ANYONE's DVR that will allow you to capture, MRV, TTG, or move to DVD anything shown on HBO. Other channels are soon to follow.

The FCC & our congress though as prevented or will not allow anything that is broadcast OTA even if being re-transmitted on cable to be have copy protection on it. So only those channels are "GARUNTEED" to allow you to MRV, TTG, or move to DVD.

If you wish to put shows that are copy protected on DVD. Then buy yourself a standalone settop DVD recorder. Especially since you don't care if you record in HD.


We're now stepping back to see if there's a totally different path for achieving the objective of recording TiVo recordings to disc. I'm not expecting HD quality and recognize it's way early in the game for this, at least from a cost effective perspective.

So how do the rest of you do this?

Do standalone DVRs copy anything TiVo grabs if connected via something other than HDMI?

Does the TiVo or programming copy protection mechanisms prevent even basic transfers at DVD PQ?

Help...

The rest of us just save the shows to a NAS (networked attached storage). Or save the show to DVD as backup. Some of us do copy to DVD to be able to watch directly from DVD. That does require additional software.

TiVo Desktop never claimed to have that function. Nor do they wish too. IF they did. It would only be a feature of the plus version, & the cost would go up to 50 bucks or even a 100.

Copy protection (0x02) prevent all transfers. Period. At this time their is no work around. Other than plugging a stand alone set top DVD recorder into your TIVO via Composite or S-Video cable & recording to the DVD. OR just bypassing the TiVo and useing the set top DVD recorder to record directly off the cable using it's own tuner. But alas still no digital channels via that method.

Just keep in mind. It isn't TiVo's fault for copy protection.

TGC

[dig_duggler]

That's the spirit! :rolleyes:

Let's see, I've calculated I've lost about 60 billable hours fighting other issues in phone calls and waiting for techs since November. I'm glad if everything works great for you and you don't have to fight that hard to get things fixed [but it appears you are in phantom SDV country] (and if up until a month ago you weren't the only person with an HD Tivo in your market so you've got absolutely no one to confirm issues with except your cable provider who is inept at best) but this is not worth it to me. Many people have had to go through worse than me, but every battle isn't worth fighting.

I know you are in the Florida Brighthouse SDV hell, but you've got a great support group there (which helps tremendously) . This one just isn't worth it to me.

Edit: Sorry, I'm defensive. But I've had to work my a$$ off to get things fixed. And going it alone sucks.

[dig_duggler]

Other than HBO, is there a list of content copyright holders who do request this flag? Any complaint uses this as a basis, so how do we know what holders have/have not requested the flag?

[aaronwt]

Get FIOS. So far nothing is restricted that I've recorded from any of my FIOS channels. I just got Comcast on one of my boxes, I need to see what their restrictions are now. Last year it was very inconsistent, like not letting one of the Star Wars movies be transferred while the other 5 were allowed which made no sense to me.

[sinanju]

After some of the other fights I've had to have, I'm just not willing to put the time and effort into this issue to even try and have it resolved (which is no guarantee).

I don't know why it seems I have to post this in every single thread on the subject -- I guess folks would rather start a new thread than look for solutions already arrived at in others -- but here it is:

Contact your local franchise authority. Use Cable in the Classroom as an example of broadcast licensing that very specifically does not want copy protection and how your cable company's blanket copy protection is against the spirit, if not the letter of that license. Point out that VHS has gone the way of the dinosaur and that the only reasonable replacement is recording transfer for DVD burning.

Be polite, professional, and keep in mind that you'll have to educate them about the issues and mechanisms.

It worked for me with Comcast in Eastern Massachusetts a little more than a year ago. The whole process took about 6 weeks and between half and a dozen emails. There is now only 1 protected channel in my lineup and they have a policy of copy protection.

[dianebrat]

Secondly, if you cable provider is inappropriately setting the CCI flags and preventing you from moving content to your PC then that is a cable company problem not TiVo. Check the CCI flag on the channels you are talking about and report back on what it says.

+1
I can't agree more with that comment.
I have Comcast, and out of 239 recordings on my S3 not more then a dozen are flagged do not allow copy, mostly from BBCA and the various IFC, retroplex, and indieplex movie channels.

and on my TivoHD, analog cable only, out of the 360, none are flagged do not copy other then a handful of Amazon Unbox movies

No network content is flagged on either of my units.

Diane

[bizzy]

I don't understand why anyone would pay for Tivo Desktop when there's better free software for any OS platform. I agree with the subject. Tivo Desktop is a scam.

[aaronwt]

I don't understand why anyone would pay for Tivo Desktop when there's better free software for any OS platform. I agree with the subject. Tivo Desktop is a scam.

I think I'm getting my moneys worth. It has worked very well. And now I can can just drop in HD content and then just transfer it and watch it right away on any of my HD TiVos. I like it so much I just set up a dedicated PC running the TiVo desktop software. Combine that with my Windows Home Media server and I will have over 6TB of storage available for permanent storage of shows.
I really like the new version of the software since I can just drag and drop HD content and watch it on the TiVo. I tried it out last week while I've been off work with a herniated disc. I bought the 8 webisodes of Sanctuary in HD and just dragged them to the TiVo Desktop folder. Went to my Series 3 box and was able to watch the HD content in realtime, while it streamed to the TiVo without having to wait for the buffer to fill up.

I really wish things would have been this way, in 2001, when I first started recording and watching HD content. It would have made things so much easier.

[Lupin]

For some reason I have a good amount of no transfer from Cox this includes...

Boomerang
Food HD
Discovery HD
TBS HD
pretty much any non local HD channel or premium movie channel

I guess I kind of get that, but it seems weird that I cant transfer off TBS HD but I can TBS and I can BBCA aka a premium digital channel. But it doesn't bother me at all. I dont really see the point of transferring shows off. Probably cause if I wanted to watch a show on my PC or iPhone Ill acquire it via other means. Be them white or black.

[dig_duggler]

I don't know why it seems I have to post this in every single thread on the subject -- I guess folks would rather start a new thread than look for solutions already arrived at in others -- but here it is:

Contact your local franchise authority. Use Cable in the Classroom as an example of broadcast licensing that very specifically does not want copy protection and how your cable company's blanket copy protection is against the spirit, if not the letter of that license. Point out that VHS has gone the way of the dinosaur and that the only reasonable replacement is recording transfer for DVD burning.

Be polite, professional, and keep in mind that you'll have to educate them about the issues and mechanisms.

It worked for me with Comcast in Eastern Massachusetts a little more than a year ago. The whole process took about 6 weeks and between half and a dozen emails. There is now only 1 protected channel in my lineup and they have a policy of copy protection.

A problem arises when it is not blanket.I suspect I have random unprotected content, but I'm not sure how to quantify it ( I can transfer networks and a few other cable channels (which could still be in analog). There is no clear list as to what qualifies as protected (as far as I can gather, pleeease point me to it) so I don't know what I can be receiving or what the starting point is after 'the content provider requested that' (other than the specified example, which I will have to find if it is aired/protected in my market to have an example).

[RonDawg]

I don't understand why anyone would pay for Tivo Desktop when there's better free software for any OS platform.

TiVo Desktop is free. TiVo Desktop Plus costs money.

[RonDawg]

Other than HBO, is there a list of content copyright holders who do request this flag? Any complaint uses this as a basis, so how do we know what holders have/have not requested the flag?

I've noticed that Discovery HD Theater has this on just about everything I record from there. It started a couple of months ago. I don't think it's a blanket setting of copyright protection on the part of Charter as I can still transfer shows from other Discovery networks.

[sinanju]

A problem arises when it is not blanket.I suspect I have random unprotected content, but I'm not sure how to quantify it.

Check the Cable in the Classroom web site. Find out which of your channels that provide CiC programming are protected... you'll be surprised how many CiC channels there are.

In fact, the CiC site even lists cable company contact info -- email, postal, and phone numbers. You might try the contact for your cable company: http://www.ciconline.org/cablecompanies

[MickeS]

I don't understand why anyone would pay for Tivo Desktop when there's better free software for any OS platform.

Convenience.

It's not a scam, it gives you exactly what it says it will.

[aaronwt]

For some reason I have a good amount of no transfer from Cox this includes...

Boomerang
Food HD
Discovery HD
TBS HD
pretty much any non local HD channel or premium movie channel

I guess I kind of get that, but it seems weird that I cant transfer off TBS HD but I can TBS and I can BBCA aka a premium digital channel. But it doesn't bother me at all. I dont really see the point of transferring shows off. Probably cause if I wanted to watch a show on my PC or iPhone Ill acquire it via other means. Be them white or black.


Crap! I just checked my TiVoHD box connected to Comcast. Out of 24 recordings, 21 are restricted. And these programs are mainly from Sci-Fi HD, HBO and History HD.(Although I see my two recordings of HD movies on USAHD aren't restricted) This is much more restrictive than when I had Comcast last year. I wonder how long FIOS will keep their content unrestricted? FIOS needs to hurry up and add more HD channels.

Well so much for my plan of transferring Ax men and BSG to permanent storage and to my Zune player.

[JWThiers]

Get FIOS. So far nothing is restricted that I've recorded from any of my FIOS channels. I just got Comcast on one of my boxes, I need to see what their restrictions are now. Last year it was very inconsistent, like not letting one of the Star Wars movies be transferred while the other 5 were allowed which made no sense to me.

Sure Care to run the wire to my home. I've wanted it since it first came out. And that was just for the internet.

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo Desktop is free. TiVo Desktop Plus costs money.
and plus only has a one time fee to pay for the codec license for mpeg. Something the open source options out there err, ummm "forget" to pay for.

[MickeS]

Maybe the reason FiOS doesn't restrict copying is that they have technicians who actually know what they're doing? It's not like cable companies are required to set these restrictions for the channels mentioned here, they just seem to do it willy nilly anyway. I'm guessing they mostly do it out of cluelessness (like everything else cable seems to do...).

[JWThiers]

Maybe the reason FiOS doesn't restrict copying is that they have technicians who actually know what they're doing? It's not like cable companies are required to set these restrictions for the channels mentioned here, they just seem to do it willy nilly anyway. I'm guessing they mostly do it out of cluelessness (like everything else cable seems to do...).

Not one to normally standup for the A$$h01e Cable companies, but From a liability point of view I can kind of understand it (I don't agree, but understand). It would only take one lawsuit from a major Copyright Holder (Disney, HBO Paramount, Sony,...) and they could be in a real hurt locker. So they err on the side of caution. Like I said I don't agree, but can understand their point of view.

[wildtexaschef]

Other than HBO, is there a list of content copyright holders who do request this flag? Any complaint uses this as a basis, so how do we know what holders have/have not requested the flag?

Just ask.

Most new shows on Sci-Fi are starting if they aren't allready to have the copy flag enabled.

wtc

[wildtexaschef]

I don't understand why anyone would pay for Tivo Desktop when there's better free software for any OS platform. I agree with the subject. Tivo Desktop is a scam.

What software is out there that lets you copy TO AND FROM the Tivo?

I have pyTiVo as well, as far as I can tell it allows me to transfer TO my Tivo but NOT FROM?

I use BOTH pyTiVo and TiVo Desktop plus. Each do something that the other doesn't. Neither is perfect.

TGC

[MickeS]

What software is out there that lets you copy TO AND FROM the Tivo?

I have pyTiVo as well, as far as I can tell it allows me to transfer TO my Tivo but NOT FROM?

I use BOTH pyTiVo and TiVo Desktop plus. Each do something that the other doesn't. Neither is perfect.

TGC
Galleon lets you transfer FROM the TiVo. I haven't used it in a while, but it had an interface similar to TD.

Also, you can of course just use your regular webbrowser, but that doesn't let you automate anything.

[TexasGrillChef]

Here is what I found in regards to SHOWS &/or Channels being copy protected with the flag.

Seems every cable system is different.

Example. One person here claimed that Discovery HD was being copy protected. In my area it isn't and I can MRV/Copy anything from Discovery HD.

On the other hand. In my area... HBO (All channels) have 100% copy protection on every single show on every single HBO channel. Others here have claimed that some of their HBO shows aren't or weren't copy protected. According to HBO. All shows on all channels SHOULD be copy protected.

Seems other channels are the same way. Some that are "protected" in one area AREN'T in another area.

Obviously NO consistantcy across our great nation.

After a little research here is what I have found.

ALOT depends on the "CONTRACT" between the Channel and the cable provider.

Example... HBO which is owned by Time Warner has an internal contract to copy protect their channel. There are a "FEW" cable companies that don't have the specific clause in their OLD contracts yet & as a result those cable companies may or may not put the copy flag on HBO.

Other channels such as SCI-Fi, BBCA, etc... are similar as well.

Now it is TRUE, that some cable company employees/management don't fully comprehend the copy protection flag & DON'T have it properly set on their end either.

Legally speaking, from what I learned after contacting a lawyer in this field. The only channels a cable company may NOT enable the copy flag on, are Broadcast channels that are available OTA, & any analog channels. ALL other channels are FAIR GAME for the copy protection flag.

IF we TRULY wish to change this. We MUST write our Congressmen, Senators. Writing the FCC on this issue WON'T solve the problem

As more and more "Cable Only" channels realize the what copy flag can do for them. The more they will enable it. We NEED to show the cable industry, that enableing the flag will HURT their Buisness model.

I have DROPPED HBO, SHOWTIME and a few of the other premium channels. I then sent a letter/email to Time Warner Cable, HBO, Showtime telling them that I canceled those channels because of their policy on the "Copy Protection" flag. Any shows that I do want to watch, I will obtain via bootleg means &/or rental of DVD.

What I am trying to say, is that Cable companies AREN'T the only ones to blame. The problem is only going to get worse not better. We need to change the laws if we want things to get better. The only way push for the laws to change is to write you senators &/or congressmen.

TGC

[Dancar]

BTW, a set-top DVD Recorder isn't necessarily a solution. Our Sony DVD recorder would not record HBO copy-protected shows, even when played through a Series I TiVo and composite connection.

Complaining about not being able to copy copy-protected shows is a bit like complaining that reatail stores don't let you walk out of the door with whatever you'd like for free. HBO and film studios prefer that anyone who wants to own permanent copies of their content buy their DVDs. And that is their right.

If you have found a way around the copy-protection, then fine. But don't complain about the hoops you have to jump through.

[wmcbrine]

I have pyTiVo as well, as far as I can tell it allows me to transfer TO my Tivo but NOT FROM?Actually, the newest versions do. But anyway, I've just been using the web interface that's built into the TiVo. No extra software needed, just a web browser.

[dig_duggler]

Thanks TGC. That's the kind of info I was looking for.

What I've gathered : It seems you can complain, and it might get you the channels (assuming you know the right person to complain to and they are either sufficiently clueless/sufficiently nice/have a lenient policy in place) but there's nothing that assures us we should get them (except for OTA and analog).

It did seem on the surface that all digital channels (which is slowly come to mean every channel) could reasonably be protected.

[aaronwt]

Maybe the reason FiOS doesn't restrict copying is that they have technicians who actually know what they're doing? It's not like cable companies are required to set these restrictions for the channels mentioned here, they just seem to do it willy nilly anyway. I'm guessing they mostly do it out of cluelessness (like everything else cable seems to do...).
I would think it's the opposite. Nothing is restricted on FIOS which definitely isn't correct. Not that I'm complaining about it. It definitely makes it easier to move things around for viewing on my different devices without any restriction.

[aaronwt]

BTW, a set-top DVD Recorder isn't necessarily a solution. Our Sony DVD recorder would not record HBO copy-protected shows, even when played through a Series I TiVo and composite connection.

Complaining about not being able to copy copy-protected shows is a bit like complaining that reatail stores don't let you walk out of the door with whatever you'd like for free. HBO and film studios prefer that anyone who wants to own permanent copies of their content buy their DVDs. And that is their right.

If you have found a way around the copy-protection, then fine. But don't complain about the hoops you have to jump through.

DId you disconnect the HDMI cable? Around here with the Comcast restriction, as long as the HDMI cable isn't attached, I can record the restricted programs to a DVD. So I have a manual HDMI switch box going to the TV. One HDMI input is from the TiVo, and the other HDMI input has no connection. If I want to record something onto DVD, which is very rare, I just push the button to the empty HDMI input, severing the HDMI connection between the TiVo and the TV, and I can record to DVD without any problems. But if that HDMI cable from the TiVo to the TV has a connection, the DVD recorder will not let me record anything from a restricted program.

[vstone]

3 of the 4 'John Adams' episodes that have recorded ar copy protected (Comcast SW VA).

[Dancar]

DId you disconnect the HDMI cable? Around here with the Comcast restriction, as long as the HDMI cable isn't attached, I can record the restricted programs to a DVD. So I have a manual HDMI switch box going to the TV. One HDMI input is from the TiVo, and the other HDMI input has no connection. If I want to record something onto DVD, which is very rare, I just push the button to the empty HDMI input, severing the HDMI connection between the TiVo and the TV, and I can record to DVD without any problems. But if that HDMI cable from the TiVo to the TV has a connection, the DVD recorder will not let me record anything from a restricted program.

That is fascinating.

In my example, I was using a Series I TiVo I bought in 2001. No HDMI because that didn't exist when I bought the hardware. The Sony DVD Recorder was enforcing the copy-protection, which must have been encoded into file recorded on the Series I TiVo and transmitted through the composite connection. We had burned DVDs of other shows recorded from the networks and cable. But when we tried to record DVDs from TiVo of shows recorded from HBO, the DVD player gave us the copy-protection message.

Apparently HD and S3 TiVos interact somehow with the TV via HDMI to determine copy protection, and without the TV the recording is not protected.

My question is, how is your DVD recorder connected? How does TiVo know the DVD recorder was trying to record, and/or how did the DVD recorder know it wasn't supposed to record? It sounds like the TiVo, TV and DVD all have to conspire to prevent the recording?

[aaronwt]

That is fascinating.

In my example, I was using a Series I TiVo I bought in 2001. No HDMI because that didn't exist when I bought the hardware. The Sony DVD Recorder was enforcing the copy-protection, which must have been encoded into file recorded on the Series I TiVo and transmitted through the composite connection. We had burned DVDs of other shows recorded from the networks and cable. But when we tried to record DVDs from TiVo of shows recorded from HBO, the DVD player gave us the copy-protection message.

Apparently HD and S3 TiVos interact somehow with the TV via HDMI to determine copy protection, and without the TV the recording is not protected.

My question is, how is your DVD recorder connected? How does TiVo know the DVD recorder was trying to record, and/or how did the DVD recorder know it wasn't supposed to record? It sounds like the TiVo, TV and DVD all have to conspire to prevent the recording?

The DVD recorder is only connected with Svideo and stereo RCA cables. I guess the TiVo sends out a macrovision(?) signal. I just know different DVD recorders react different ways to this. I've had several DVD recorders over the last 5 years. Some wouldn't record at all, some put a huge message over the screen and still record, some put a big blue screen over ervything and then still records. All doing something to make the recording unusable. Although the best way is not to force the device not record it at all so you don't waste time with a recording that can't be viewed.

[EVizzle]

I have had zero flagged recordings on my S3. The only thing that has copyright protection on it is my CNET Tivocast. Pretty funny actually.

I use TivoDesktop daily and love it. I store a lot of HD stuff on an external, like Jurassic Park 3 (waiting for 1 and 2 to show up in HD) and have used desktop plus to put stuff on my ipod(s). Never a problem.

[HTH]

The FCC & our congress though as prevented or will not allow anything that is broadcast OTA even if being re-transmitted on cable to be have copy protection on it. So only those channels are "GARUNTEED" to allow you to MRV, TTG, or move to DVD.
I have an exception to that. The recent Knight Rider TV movie won't transfer from my Series3. It isn't flagged as non-transferable. It's just that every time I try to transfer it, it aborts the transfer within seconds. I have both broadcast showings sitting on my TiVo and neither one will transfer to my Mac. I've successfully pulled other shows, including the Super Bowl.

[ilh]

I'm experiencing this same failure to transfer with a PBS program that is unprotected. It aborts after transfering only 7 seconds of the program. Everything else transfers fine.

[TexasGrillChef]

Thanks TGC. That's the kind of info I was looking for.

What I've gathered : It seems you can complain, and it might get you the channels (assuming you know the right person to complain to and they are either sufficiently clueless/sufficiently nice/have a lenient policy in place) but there's nothing that assures us we should get them (except for OTA and analog).

It did seem on the surface that all digital channels (which is slowly come to mean every channel) could reasonably be protected.

which is exactly right. Many cable companies in the next few years are moving to a "DIGITAL ONLY" System. Chicago's Comcast, & Dallas's Time Warner are two cable systems that are planning on being "DIGITAL ONLY" by as Early as Q1 2011.

Legally speaking. CURRENTLY the only channels that we can get WITHOUT any form of COPY PROTECTION are OTA & Analog. When cable goes Digital Only. The Only channels we can get are OTA.

UNLESS we can get the LAW CHANGED!

How do you change laws? Write your Senators & Congressmen. If ENOUGH people DO complain to them. Then they will DO something.

This IS an election year. Election years give us the GREATEST potential for change... This is the BEST time to complain to your Senator/Congresman.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

That is fascinating.

In my example, I was using a Series I TiVo I bought in 2001. No HDMI because that didn't exist when I bought the hardware. The Sony DVD Recorder was enforcing the copy-protection, which must have been encoded into file recorded on the Series I TiVo and transmitted through the composite connection. We had burned DVDs of other shows recorded from the networks and cable. But when we tried to record DVDs from TiVo of shows recorded from HBO, the DVD player gave us the copy-protection message.

Apparently HD and S3 TiVos interact somehow with the TV via HDMI to determine copy protection, and without the TV the recording is not protected.

My question is, how is your DVD recorder connected? How does TiVo know the DVD recorder was trying to record, and/or how did the DVD recorder know it wasn't supposed to record? It sounds like the TiVo, TV and DVD all have to conspire to prevent the recording?

This is very possible from a known encoding process called "MACROVISION" which is used on VHS Video Tapes to prevent copying. This encoding/Decoding is built into to all "newer" VCR's as well as DVD recorders/players. The idea behind this was to prevent copying certain VHS tapes to VHS tapes/DVD. As well as the SAME mechanism used to prevent copying DVD's from one DVD player to a Stand alone DVD recorder. Even through composite or S-Video Cable.

Macrovision encoding can be done from TV stations such as HBO as well &/or the cable company thus preventing one from copying the show as well. Not many have used this. But in your case it sounds like it COULD be a POSSIBILITY. Who knows for sure. Obviously something is being used.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

I have had zero flagged recordings on my S3. The only thing that has copyright protection on it is my CNET Tivocast. Pretty funny actually.

I use TivoDesktop daily and love it. I store a lot of HD stuff on an external, like Jurassic Park 3 (waiting for 1 and 2 to show up in HD) and have used desktop plus to put stuff on my ipod(s). Never a problem.

Your lucky! VERY Lucky! Sad to say it won't last long though. So make good use of it while you can!

TGC

[rodbac]

I WONDER if some people REALIZE how little impact bolding and CAPS HAVE when they're OVERUSED... ;)

[TexasGrillChef]

I have an exception to that. The recent Knight Rider TV movie won't transfer from my Series3. It isn't flagged as non-transferable. It's just that every time I try to transfer it, it aborts the transfer within seconds. I have both broadcast showings sitting on my TiVo and neither one will transfer to my Mac. I've successfully pulled other shows, including the Super Bowl.

When you look at your TiVo Desktop for Knight Rider does it have the Circle of Death? You know the Red Circle with line through it? Or does it just not transfer? Sounds like something else is going on there.

I was able to transfer Knight Rider as well as the Super Bowl off my S3/HD units.

TGC

[Dancar]

Why would the law treat OTA differently than cable? Is it because the law was written before cable existed? Doubtful, because to my recollection VCRs and non-OTA cable networks emerged around the same time (using cable to bring OTA stations to areas blocked from OTA signals has been around almost as long as TV - CATV used to stand for "Community Antenna TV".)

And why the distinction between digital and analog? SciFi analog and SciFiHD are the same content. Why does the law say they deserve different levels of protection?

[ah30k]

I think there is one fundamental legal issue that many people miss. The courts have not ruled that people have a 'right' to copy for personal use. They only ruled that they cannot be sued for it. Big difference. I am no lawyer but I believe the actual terminology is that personal use is a defense, not a right.

What this means to people in reality is that if they copy for personal use they can't be held liable but providers can deny copying if they want/can.

Again, please take my views with a grain of salt since I am out of my element here.

[Dancar]

I believe you are correct. In a landmark case, Sony v. Universal City Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc.) the Suprime Court ruled that recording TV shows for the purpose of "Time Shifting" qualifies as "fair use." But as I read the article, there is nothing against content providers making it difficult or impossible to make such recordings.

So why would copy protection of analog or OTA be prohibited?

[JWThiers]

4 letters D.C.M.A.

[TexasGrillChef]

Why would the law treat OTA differently than cable? Is it because the law was written before cable existed? Doubtful, because to my recollection VCRs and non-OTA cable networks emerged around the same time (using cable to bring OTA stations to areas blocked from OTA signals has been around almost as long as TV - CATV used to stand for "Community Antenna TV".)

And why the distinction between digital and analog? SciFi analog and SciFiHD are the same content. Why does the law say they deserve different levels of protection?

No... it is because of an old law... that is still in effect. Anything available over the "AIRWAVES" is free to record. Is the basic concept of that law. Which our congress has deemed to still be valid. Sat signals are exempt.

Cable is a "Closed" system. Thust only available to people who have access to that system. This applies to Private cable systems as well as Public pay systems.

OTA is considered an OPEN system. Anyone can access it with the proper equipement.

This basic difference is also the MAIN reason why "Censors" follow DIFFERENT guildlines on what can be shown on cable, & what can be shown on OTA.

If you notice. HBO, Showtime, ESPN, & other cable only channels can show nudity, violance, language, etc.. that OTA channels aren't allowed too.

As far as the distinction between Digital & Analog goes. It's more a feasability and cost more than any legal means. Much easier to Copy protect a digital signal than an analog one. However.... because of the technical feasability. You have OLD Analog cable ready TV sets that still hook up to analog cable with no "Box". Enabling Copy protection on analog signals would mean "ISSUES" with older analog cable ready TV's, VCR's and DVD recorders.

Also keep in mind. That not all laws in this wonderful country of ours makes any logical sense.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

I believe you are correct. In a landmark case, Sony v. Universal City Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc.) the Suprime Court ruled that recording TV shows for the purpose of "Time Shifting" qualifies as "fair use." But as I read the article, there is nothing against content providers making it difficult or impossible to make such recordings.

So why would copy protection of analog or OTA be prohibited?

Because we were lucky enough to have a decent Congress/Senate who actually passed a bill into law that specifically states that they may NOT copy protect analog or OTA signals.

I can go back to the lawyer I contacted to find the exact law if you wish. Although I think he might actually charge me for that this time! LOL But he did say that a law was passed preventing copy protection from being used ONLY on ANALOG or OTA signals.

TGC