Can Cable Company Block All Digital Channels?

[ldudek]

Recently my cable company, TW decided to put all digital channels at 0x02. So I can't move them from one TiVo to another. Is this legal? I understand HBO, Showtime, but Hallmark, Cartoon channel? All of these channels were either unrestricted or just 0x01 previously.

Do I have any recourse? FCC?

[Gregor]

Recently my cable company, TW decided to put all digital channels at 0x02. So I can't move them from one TiVo to another. Is this legal? I understand HBO, Showtime, but Hallmark, Cartoon channel? All of these channels were either unrestricted or just 0x01 previously.

Do I have any recourse? FCC?

You can contact your franchise authority. You could contact TW and see what the scoop is, they may have misconfigured something in locking down HBO, etc.

[acvthree]

I don't think there are any FCC regulations or legal authority to prevent them from doing that.

Al

[menos]

as long as they don't lock down the locals they can do whatever they want. You can complain but it probably won't help.

[TriBruin]

as long as they don't lock down the locals they can do whatever they want. You can complain but it probably won't help.

Although your right that they can lock down the channels, if you browse this forum, you wlll find in most cases it is just a mistake and simply contacting the cable company will get the situation fixed.

[Dancar]

What channels are supposed to be included with in the cable package you subscribed to and are paying for? Those are the only channels they are obligated to provide to you.

[DrWho453]

Good luck to you. Here in Raleigh NC, we have the same issue. All the digital channels are blocked by the 0x02 code except for the local channels and about two weeks ago or so TWC moved its analog channels to digital so now I can't move shows from Sci-Fi or History to my series 2 or to my laptop. I haven't tried contacting TWC of Raleigh yet been busy doing other things.

[gamo62]

You can contact your franchise authority. You could contact TW and see what the scoop is, they may have misconfigured something in locking down HBO, etc.


Who would be the franchise authority for Time Warner Cincinnati?

[bicker]

Try the City of Cincinnati.

[ldudek]

Well explain this: Let's say the cable companies can restrict digital channels. Let's say you have a TiVo Series 2. Now you can't move programs on digital channels on a Series 2?

This just doesn't make sense.

[m_jonis]

Well explain this: Let's say the cable companies can restrict digital channels. Let's say you have a TiVo Series 2. Now you can't move programs on digital channels on a Series 2?

This just doesn't make sense.

The cable companies can and do (especially TW Cable) restrict digital channels. however, the Series 2 does not and cannot read the CCI byte. It CAN, however, read the macrovision flag, but that's not supposed to be set (but it's happened quite frequently enough).

So as long as you use your Series 2 for analog stations or with a STB for digital, then you're okay. But if you get an S3 or TivoHD, and you're in TW country, then you have a good chance of getting hosed.

[rainwater]

Who would be the franchise authority for Time Warner Cincinnati?

It is listed on every bill. If you pay online, then you should be able to view the bill online.

[ldudek]

But if you get an S3 or TivoHD, and you're in TW country, then you have a good chance of getting hosed.

You may be right, but I'm still fighting it. The thinking behind it is ridiculous.

And it's not like I record that much digital, matter of fact I don't record hardly anything. I think my TiVo HD picked up some "AWA Wrestling." Now why in God's name does that need copy protection? This is nothing but old garbage.

[TexasGrillChef]

After checking with a lawyer, who then took some time to do some research.

this is what he told me.

Any DIGITAL Channel that is NOT also an OTA Channel CAN BE copy protected.

The ONLY channels that may NOT be copy protected are any ANALOG stations or Digital stations that are ALSO broadcast OTA.

Some cable company systems in some areas of the country are scheduled to SWITCH to an ALL DIGITAL ONLY system as early as Q1 2011.

Thus... if you want this changed... THE LAW HAS TO BE CHANGED...

The ONLY way to change the law is to WRITE your congressman/Senator. Writing the FCC won't change anything. We have to change the law & to do that, Congress, The Senate and the President have to sign it into Law.

This is an ELECTION year... Congress, The Senate and even our proposed future President tend to listen to us more in electon years than other years.

If ENOUGH people COMPLAIN then our congressman/senators WILL do something, but only if enough people write & complain.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Here is what I found in regards to SHOWS &/or Channels being copy protected with the flag.

Seems every cable system is different.

Example. One person here claimed that Discovery HD was being copy protected. In my area it isn't and I can MRV/Copy anything from Discovery HD.

On the other hand. In my area... HBO (All channels) have 100% copy protection on every single show on every single HBO channel. Others here have claimed that some of their HBO shows aren't or weren't copy protected. According to HBO. All shows on all channels SHOULD be copy protected.

Seems other channels are the same way. Some that are "protected" in one area AREN'T in another area.

Obviously NO consistantcy across our great nation.

After a little research here is what I have found.

ALOT depends on the "CONTRACT" between the Channel and the cable provider.

Example... HBO which is owned by Time Warner has an internal contract to copy protect their channel. There are a "FEW" cable companies that don't have the specific clause in their OLD contracts yet & as a result those cable companies may or may not put the copy flag on HBO.

Other channels such as SCI-Fi, BBCA, etc... are similar as well.

Now it is TRUE, that some cable company employees/management don't fully comprehend the copy protection flag & DON'T have it properly set on their end either.

Legally speaking, from what I learned after contacting a lawyer in this field. The only channels a cable company may NOT enable the copy flag on, are Broadcast channels that are available OTA, & any analog channels. ALL other channels are FAIR GAME for the copy protection flag.

IF we TRULY wish to change this. We MUST write our Congressmen, Senators. Writing the FCC on this issue WON'T solve the problem

As more and more "Cable Only" channels realize the what copy flag can do for them. The more they will enable it. We NEED to show the cable industry, that enableing the flag will HURT their Buisness model.

I have DROPPED HBO, SHOWTIME and a few of the other premium channels. I then sent a letter/email to Time Warner Cable, HBO, Showtime telling them that I canceled those channels because of their policy on the "Copy Protection" flag. Any shows that I do want to watch, I will obtain via bootleg means &/or rental of DVD.

What I am trying to say, is that Cable companies AREN'T the only ones to blame. The problem is only going to get worse not better. We need to change the laws if we want things to get better. The only way push for the laws to change is to write you senators &/or congressmen.

TGC

[[NG]Owner]

Which also means Tivo had better find a way to stream its content between its boxes thereby bypassing the copy restriction flag, or the whole MRV thing in a few years is gonna suck the big hairy moose youknowwhat.

[NG]Owner

[Gregor]

Owner;6142065']Which also means Tivo had better find a way to stream its content between its boxes thereby bypassing the copy restriction flag, or the whole MRV thing in a few years is gonna suck the big hairy moose youknowwhat.

[NG]Owner

I doubt seriously Tivo will ever subvert the copy restriction flag. Whether or not the content providers decide to allow an additional copy is another matter entirely.

[TexasGrillChef]

I doubt seriously Tivo will ever subvert the copy restriction flag. Whether or not the content providers decide to allow an additional copy is another matter entirely.

I can almost promise you that TiVo won't ever subvert the Copy Restriction flag. TiVo does it's best to stay out of the court system as defendants as much possible.

Content providers well thats another story. They won't do anything to let us copy unless they can make money at it, or are forced to by our government.

TGC

[[NG]Owner]

Guys, streaming isn't subversive.

The OP stated he can't move stuff from one Tivo to another, e.g., MRV is busted. Tivo, at some point in their infinite wisdom, decided it made more sense to copy a program from Tivo to another Tivo to permit viewing. Everyone else in this industry streams the content. Nope, not Tivo. They copy it. Whoops. Copy flags now prohibit it. MRV in the crapper.

Well since copying content from one box to another box will no longer work, Tivo will have to design and implement a solution along the lines of Microsoft's X360 and Mediacenter where the content is streamed not copied. That's all I was suggesting. Didn't anybody else follow that? Streaming will get past the 0xo2 issue the OP had. If others have success streaming, why shouldn't Tivo follow their lead?

[NG]Owner

[m_jonis]

Owner;6144040']Guys, streaming isn't subversive.

The OP stated he can't move stuff from one Tivo to another, e.g., MRV is busted. Tivo, at some point in their infinite wisdom, decided it made more sense to copy a program from Tivo to another Tivo to permit viewing. Everyone else in this industry streams the content. Nope, not Tivo. They copy it. Whoops. Copy flags now prohibit it. MRV in the crapper.

Well since copying content from one box to another box will no longer work, Tivo will have to design and implement a solution along the lines of Microsoft's X360 and Mediacenter where the content is streamed not copied. That's all I was suggesting. Didn't anybody else follow that? Streaming will get past the 0xo2 issue the OP had. If others have success streaming, why shouldn't Tivo follow their lead?

[NG]Owner

And probably the reason that if they ever come out with a true HD Slingbox, I'll probably buy one.

[TexasGrillChef]

And probably the reason that if they ever come out with a true HD Slingbox, I'll probably buy one.

Slingcatcher is True HD capable. HDMI output at 1080i

Slingbox Pro-HD is capable of sling'ing TRUE 1080i HD content. Although because of HDCP. HDMI input is NOT possible. Input will be via Component Cable. It is also suppose to include a OTA ATSC tuner, as well as a Clear Qam cable tuner. Sorry no cable card support.

Slingbox Pro-HD is scheduled to be released by Q4 of this year. While the slingcatcher is scheduled for Q2. Of course things could change.

TGC

[ldudek]

After checking with a lawyer, who then took some time to do some research.

this is what he told me.

Any DIGITAL Channel that is NOT also an OTA Channel CAN BE copy protected.

The ONLY channels that may NOT be copy protected are any ANALOG stations or Digital stations that are ALSO broadcast OTA.

Some cable company systems in some areas of the country are scheduled to SWITCH to an ALL DIGITAL ONLY system as early as Q1 2011.

Thus... if you want this changed... THE LAW HAS TO BE CHANGED...

The ONLY way to change the law is to WRITE your congressman/Senator. Writing the FCC won't change anything. We have to change the law & to do that, Congress, The Senate and the President have to sign it into Law.

This is an ELECTION year... Congress, The Senate and even our proposed future President tend to listen to us more in election years than other years.

If ENOUGH people COMPLAIN then our congressman/senators WILL do something, but only if enough people write & complain.

TGC


Your absolutely right. They can do what they want with the digital channels. I've never been upset with TiVo but I am now. They show no interest at all in getting involved in trying to get this changed so if you're stuck with a crappy cable company then you get restricted recordings.

Perhaps TiVo is working on doing something about this but they probably wouldn't talk about it as it's a legal matter. That's what I want to believe.

I will be contacting the FCC, my congressman, senators and whomever about this unfair issue.

[m_jonis]

Your absolutely right. They can do what they want with the digital channels. I've never been upset with TiVo but I am now. They show no interest at all in getting involved in trying to get this changed so if you're stuck with a crappy cable company then you get restricted recordings.

Perhaps TiVo is working on doing something about this but they probably wouldn't talk about it as it's a legal matter. That's what I want to believe.

I will be contacting the FCC, my congressman, senators and whomever about this unfair issue.

They can also implement the macrovision flag on analog channels as well. Unless they're OTA analog channels.

But there's nothing stopping them from flagging an analog version of say, Sci-Fi.

It just usually doesn't happen too often, but you'll see quite a few cases here where it has happened (I've had it happen on our local Fox station on analog for shows like "The Simpsons" or something). The Series 2 will "pay attention" the Macrovision flag as well.

Or, you could be lucky like those of us in TW country where they make the cable cards only capable of receiving digital simultcast (ie, you don't get ANY analog-tier channels sent as analog--they send them as digital) and then they flag all of those as 0x02.

[ldudek]

They can also implement the macrovision flag on analog channels as well. Unless they're OTA analog channels.

But there's nothing stopping them from flagging an analog version of say, Sci-Fi.

It just usually doesn't happen too often, but you'll see quite a few cases here where it has happened (I've had it happen on our local Fox station on analog for shows like "The Simpsons" or something). The Series 2 will "pay attention" the Macrovision flag as well.

Or, you could be lucky like those of us in TW country where they make the cable cards only capable of receiving digital simultcast (ie, you don't get ANY analog-tier channels sent as analog--they send them as digital) and then they flag all of those as 0x02.

When you say "flag" are you referring to macro vision? Because according to what TexasGrillChief is saying he found out they can't put the "copy once" code on anything analog. Now I don't know about macro vision but I kind of doubt they would do that.

Also don't be so certain that you can't get to your analog locals. I found them and while there is no guide data they are there, at least in my area.

[pkscout]

I can almost promise you that TiVo won't ever subvert the Copy Restriction flag. TiVo does it's best to stay out of the court system as defendants as much possible.

It's more than that. In order to get the Series 3 certified by CableLabs (which is required to use a CableCard), TiVo was obligated to abide by CableLab guidelines. Namely, TiVo must honor the CCI byte. Cable companies can't set the CCI byte to anything but 0x00 (copy freely) on OTA rebroadcasts. They can set anything up to 0x02 on digital content (copy once). They can set 0x03 (copy never) only on PPV and OnDemand content.

Yup it's a bummer.

[ldudek]

It's more than that. In order to get the Series 3 certified by CableLabs (which is required to use a CableCard), TiVo was obligated to abide by CableLab guidelines. Namely, TiVo must honor the CCI byte. Cable companies can't set the CCI byte to anything but 0x00 (copy freely) on OTA rebroadcasts. They can set anything up to 0x02 on digital content (copy once). They can set 0x03 (copy never) only on PPV and OnDemand content.

Yup it's a bummer.

The funny part about all this is that I don't even watch that much digital television! Mostly I watch HD broadcast with the exception of some HD on TNT and HBO. It just kind of ticks me off that they can do this and get away with it.

Well time to write all those people.

[ldudek]

I have sent the following letter to my Congressman and Senator:

Please feel free to copy, edit as you like.



I'm writing you about a matter that I believe restricts our rights to use modern technology as it is inteneded.

I subscribe to Time Warner Cable. They have their own digital vdeo recorders but due to the quality of their devices I do not use them.

I own a TiVo S3 and a TiVo HD. I don't know how familiar you are but basically they are digital video recording devices. The differences between them and what the cable company offers are quality, reliability, ease of use and the ability to record on one device and move it to another to watch. Those are just the basic differences.

This is handy if you have 3 or even 4 programs that are on at the same time. You could record two on each machine and then if you choose you can transfer to whatever television you would like.

These devices use cable cards. With these cable cards certain restrictions can be applied for copy right protection. That's understandable.

So you can't copy a movie on HBO or something on Pay Per View and move it to your computer. That's fine.

But what Time Warner has done is gone a step forward. They have set all of their digital channels to the code 0x02. That means you can record but you cannot move it to another machine.

Now as I'm sure you are aware many of the digital channels are things like Hallmark, National Geographic, Biography etc. There really isn't anything that needs copy protection. And previously these channels were not set to these codes.

As I understand it the cable company is within their right to make these restrictions by law. But when a law is wrong, it needs to be changed.

Such is the case here.

What sense does it make to be able to copy freely anything on ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, and TBS but not be able to copy freely the High Definition versions? And why did Time Warner decide to restrict all digital?

The answer is simple. They don't want you to buy other equipment, they want to rent out theirs which isn't capable of doing these transfers. This is unfair and the law should be changed. I really don't care about the restrictions on the digital channels personally, but I do care about restricting the HD broadcast of channels that can be copied freely on their analog counterparts.

So I'm requesting your help to do something about this. Chane the law so that it is fair.

I know there are far more serious problems then this but never the less we should be able to get what we pay for and Time Warner is preventing us from doing this.

Please change the law to allow digital channels and channels that are broadcast in analog and HD to have the code of 0x01. While I feel that it should really be a copy code of 0x00 it would be at least a compromise of sorts.

I await a response from you.

Sincerely,

[TexasGrillChef]

Perhaps TiVo is working on doing something about this but they probably wouldn't talk about it as it's a legal matter. That's what I want to believe.

I will be contacting the FCC, my congressman, senators and whomever about this unfair issue.

Very hard to tell what TiVo is doing to help or work around this issue. History has shown though that TiVo tries very hard to stay out of the court systems. They don't wish to be like replay TV or others who were jsut sued out of business. They don't have the financial resources to fight a major lawsuit and still stay in business. Catch 22.

I am very glad you will be contacting those who might be able to do something about this issue. I know I have. Let's push others to do the same.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

When you say "flag" are you referring to macro vision? Because according to what TexasGrillChief is saying he found out they can't put the "copy once" code on anything analog. Now I don't know about macro vision but I kind of doubt they would do that.

Also don't be so certain that you can't get to your analog locals. I found them and while there is no guide data they are there, at least in my area.

Macrovision in an encoding process that doesn't prevent you from copying a program. But if you do it "Encrypts" it and makes the video signal UNVIEWABLE.

HOWEVER... there is a workaround to this for $59. You can get a device that plugs inline with either S-Video or Composite cable & removes the macrovision.

This device came around when people wanted to move their VHS Movie collection TO DVD without having to BUY new copies.

How TiVo handles macrovision is another story.

TGC

[Gregor]

Owner;6144040']Guys, streaming isn't subversive.

The OP stated he can't move stuff from one Tivo to another, e.g., MRV is busted. Tivo, at some point in their infinite wisdom, decided it made more sense to copy a program from Tivo to another Tivo to permit viewing. Everyone else in this industry streams the content. Nope, not Tivo. They copy it. Whoops. Copy flags now prohibit it. MRV in the crapper.

Well since copying content from one box to another box will no longer work, Tivo will have to design and implement a solution along the lines of Microsoft's X360 and Mediacenter where the content is streamed not copied. That's all I was suggesting. Didn't anybody else follow that? Streaming will get past the 0xo2 issue the OP had. If others have success streaming, why shouldn't Tivo follow their lead?

[NG]Owner

Why not? Because much of the success of streaming video is determined by the bandwidth of the network. I would guess Tivo doesn't want support calls due to home network inadequacies.

[moyekj]

Slingcatcher is True HD capable. HDMI output at 1080i

Slingbox Pro-HD is capable of sling'ing TRUE 1080i HD content. Although because of HDCP. HDMI input is NOT possible. Input will be via Component Cable. It is also suppose to include a OTA ATSC tuner, as well as a Clear Qam cable tuner. Sorry no cable card support.

Slingbox Pro-HD is scheduled to be released by Q4 of this year. While the slingcatcher is scheduled for Q2. Of course things could change.

TGC I wouldn't call it TRUE 1080i HD as the Slingbox will take an analog component input and re-encode on the fly anything it's getting, therefore not preserving the original HD encoding and quality will suffer as a result of the A->D and real-time re-encoding by Slingbox.

[toy4two]

there is also one more option, if TWC wont play nice and the govt won't change the law, then you can apply a hack to your TIVO HD via prom mod and bypass every flag TWC can throw at you ;)

[wierdo]

I consider myself very lucky that only two channels are CCI 0x02 here. HBO and Showtime. I think Showtime is only on that list because they meant to copy protect Cinemax but fat-fingered the configuration. ;)

I never have been quite sure which I'd rather have set 0x00. Cinemax shows things that were previously on HBO that I want to MRV or TTG. Showtime shows wider than 1.85:1 movies in their original aspect ratio. I decided it was best not to rock the boat, lest all the movie channels become 0x02.

[ldudek]

there is also one more option, if TWC wont play nice and the govt won't change the law, then you can apply a hack to your TIVO HD via prom mod and bypass every flag TWC can throw at you ;)

Just in case your post should disappear, there is a rule that says you can't discuss hacking in the TiVo Forum. Which means this post may diisappear too.

Now to google prom mod.....

[ldudek]

I consider myself very lucky that only two channels are CCI 0x02 here. HBO and Showtime. I think Showtime is only on that list because they meant to copy protect Cinemax but fat-fingered the configuration. ;)

I never have been quite sure which I'd rather have set 0x00. Cinemax shows things that were previously on HBO that I want to MRV or TTG. Showtime shows wider than 1.85:1 movies in their original aspect ratio. I decided it was best not to rock the boat, lest all the movie channels become 0x02.

This is something recent for me. They always had the digital channels copy freely until now. I think TW is just trying to mess with people who have TiVo's.

Oh and that Prom Mod stuff. Ummm, no thanks a little bit risky.

[TexasGrillChef]

I wouldn't call it TRUE 1080i HD as the Slingbox will take an analog component input and re-encode on the fly anything it's getting, therefore not preserving the original HD encoding and quality will suffer as a result of the A->D and real-time re-encoding by Slingbox.

Good point. Some quality will be lost in the A->D encoding. Some is lost in the D->A conversion when going to component. Although some are claiming they can't tell the difference between HDMI and Component.

While NOT abosolutely perfect... it is still better quality then before.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

there is also one more option, if TWC wont play nice and the govt won't change the law, then you can apply a hack to your TIVO HD via prom mod and bypass every flag TWC can throw at you ;)

Nice but voids any warranty.

TGC

[m_jonis]

Although one of the articles mentioned that Tivo *may* (I'll believe it when I see it) allow you to MOVE (not copy) and supposedly THAT is allowed by the CableLabs DFAST licensing agreement?

But I've not seen anything here about Tivo even mentioning/contemplating this.

[TexasGrillChef]

Although one of the articles mentioned that Tivo *may* (I'll believe it when I see it) allow you to MOVE (not copy) and supposedly THAT is allowed by the CableLabs DFAST licensing agreement?

But I've not seen anything here about Tivo even mentioning/contemplating this.

I have heard rumors of this. I haven't heard anything yet on the legality of it, and the viewpoint of TiVo as well.

TGC

[sinanju]

I have heard rumors of this. I haven't heard anything yet on the legality of it, and the viewpoint of TiVo as well.

TGC

That would explain why it took so long to get TTG and MVR for the S3. TiVo might have been trying to get "move" rather than "copy" approved and decided to just cut their losses. I was sure the problem was the ease with which DSD and the like unwrapped recordings. I was completely surprised DSD continued to work with S3 transfers.

[ldudek]

That would explain why it took so long to get TTG and MVR for the S3. TiVo might have been trying to get "move" rather than "copy" approved and decided to just cut their losses. I was sure the problem was the ease with which DSD and the like unwrapped recordings. I was completely surprised DSD continued to work with S3 transfers.

Maybe I'll need to ask this question on another thread but does the S2 stream or copy recordings? I've only had D*Tivo prior and MRV,TTG wasn't allowed.

[sinanju]

Maybe I'll need to ask this question on another thread but does the S2 stream or copy recordings? I've only had D*Tivo prior and MRV,TTG wasn't allowed.

MRV and TTG are always a copy on all TiVo platforms.

[MichaelK]

Macrovision in an encoding process that doesn't prevent you from copying a program. But if you do it "Encrypts" it and makes the video signal UNVIEWABLE.

HOWEVER... there is a workaround to this for $59. You can get a device that plugs inline with either S-Video or Composite cable & removes the macrovision.

This device came around when people wanted to move their VHS Movie collection TO DVD without having to BUY new copies.

How TiVo handles macrovision is another story.

TGC



$59?

you should check out ebay-

you can get a "video stabilizer"

for buy it now $20

and if you feel like waiting around for an auction to end you probably can get one for a few bucks less than that.

[MichaelK]

Why not? Because much of the success of streaming video is determined by the bandwidth of the network. I would guess Tivo doesn't want support calls due to home network inadequacies.

agreed there was probably no better way to do it when they first deployed MRV.

But times have changed.

So an option to allow streaming would be nice at some point to deal with this CCI mess.

And as home networks get newer and faster streaming is less of a problem.

When was the last time a wired home networking device that wasn't 100 speed sold? Many now come gigabit. Many things are even switched now a days.

How many wireless B only devices are sold now a days? The vast majority are G now - right? Now N is starting to come along.

Anecdotally my most recent laptop has gigabit wired and ABGN. Giga and N are becoming commonplace.

Years and Years ago I seem to remember tivo showing an OTA only HD reference design at CES never was made becasue of cost. Today the cablecard AND OTA tivoHD exists for a much cheaper cost then the Series 3 started out at.

Times change. Tivo should figure out how to follow the march in this case.

[MichaelK]

Although one of the articles mentioned that Tivo *may* (I'll believe it when I see it) allow you to MOVE (not copy) and supposedly THAT is allowed by the CableLabs DFAST licensing agreement?

But I've not seen anything here about Tivo even mentioning/contemplating this.

its been a while since I dug through the dfast agreement but I seem to recall that is totally legal.

Tivo could probably copy but not allow viewing till the copy is complete and the original version on the other tivo was disabled.

I forget though if you could then move it back or if only one move was permitted. The DFAST agreement at cablelabs website is the place to read up if you folks care to.

[MichaelK]

sometimes google just makes life so easy...

http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf

i didn't read it all again- but quick search pulls up this

3.5.2 A Unidirectional Digital Cable Product that makes a copy of content marked in
the CCI as “Copy One Generation” in accordance with this Section 3.5 may move
such content to a single removable recording medium, or to a single external
recording device, only when (a) the external recording device indicates that it is
authorized to perform this Move function in accordance with the requirements of
this Section, and to copy such Controlled Content in accordance with the
requirements of this Section 3.5; (b) such content is marked for transmission by
the originating Unidirectional Digital Cable Product as “Copy One Generation”;
(c) the content is output over a protected output in accordance with Sections 2.2
or 2.4 of this Exhibit B; (d) before the Move is completed, the originating
Unidirectional Digital Cable Product recording is rendered non-useable and the
moved content is marked “Copy No More” and (e) the device to which the
removable recording medium is moved is unable or rendered unable to output the
content except through outputs authorized by these Compliance Rules. Multiple
moves consistent with these requirements are not prohibited.


CCI 0x02 is copy once.

so seems you could move it ONE time.

*actually I'm not sure if the copy on the tivo is the ONE copy but since it talks about moving I assume it isn't.

anyone care to read the whole thing and figure it out- Im too lazy now...

[m_jonis]

I'm assuming the same thing you in, in which case, it's too bad Tivo hasn't implemented some sort of feature to do this. But who knows.

Given that it took so long to get the Cable Labs approval for TTG and MRV in the first place, and that a small minority of us complained about it, I have a feeling that the bulk of Tivo's customers don't care or don't desire TTG or MRV to warrant the time and effort involved in it.

Guess I'll be keeping my DT around for quite some time to circumvent the CCI issue with TW (at least until such time that they go all digital).

[MichaelK]

I think as more and more analog goes bye bye and more and more winds up 0x02 it's going to get to be more of an issue for tivo and so they'll need to deal with it eventually.

[TexasGrillChef]

$59?

you should check out ebay-

you can get a "video stabilizer"

for buy it now $20

and if you feel like waiting around for an auction to end you probably can get one for a few bucks less than that.

I am sure one could find it cheaper, One looks hard enough they could always find it cheaper! I was giving a ball park figure! :)

The one I saw was at Best Buy & included the cables, power adapter etc..

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

I think as more and more analog goes bye bye and more and more winds up 0x02 it's going to get to be more of an issue for tivo and so they'll need to deal with it eventually.

Or.... Maybe if not TiVo... Congress????

TGC

[bicker]

Or neither. The regulations do not require CE manufacturers to support 0x02 the way you may want them to. The regulation merely places a limit. They are welcome to do LESS than the limit. That is what they deliberately decided to do, according to the TiVo employee (I don't recall which) who addressed that issue here online when it first came up. They are under no requirement to change it, and I doubt there will be enough customers so completely upset about it to make a difference, anytime in the foreseeable future.

[MichaelK]

I am sure one could find it cheaper, One looks hard enough they could always find it cheaper! I was giving a ball park figure! :)

The one I saw was at Best Buy & included the cables, power adapter etc..

TGC

good point!

for those intereested

the ebay flavor is unually san's cables and all- they usually use a 9 volt battery internally so no wall wart (some count that a plus or minus)..

[MichaelK]

Or neither. The regulations do not require CE manufacturers to support 0x02 the way you may want them to. The regulation merely places a limit. They are welcome to do LESS than the limit. That is what they deliberately decided to do, according to the TiVo employee (I don't recall which) who addressed that issue here online when it first came up. They are under no requirement to change it, and I doubt there will be enough customers so completely upset about it to make a difference, anytime in the foreseeable future.

you dont think more and more channels are going to wind up 0x02? That is a possibility but seems less likely to me.

If enough go 0x02 then MRV becomes MUCH less usable. People frequently parrot that Tivo makes certain design choices to keep things simple for the user. Having much of your content blocked from MRV while much is unblocked might add confusion to the end user. I think their disclaimer and web page pointer is good enough but MRV at the moment is a significant differentiator from cable company supplied DVR's. Take it away and there's one more reason to just rent from cable and some amount (who knows how many) will leave becasue of it.

Cable DVR's are likley to get MRV of somesort, media center products have streaming which allows MRV regardless, tivo can't let themselves get too far out of that ballgame I'd think. Especially when there is a simple fix of copy like they do now but then destroy the original.

But again just my 2 cents. And we all know you have opinions too. :)

[acvthree]

It seems to me that the cable companies would see setting all channels possible to 0x02 in their best interest.

With the absense of any sort of consumer protection, I think we'll see most companies going in that direction.

Verizon seems to be the exception and they seem more Tivo friendly than the other providers.

Al

[MichaelK]

It seems to me that the cable companies would see setting all channels possible to 0x02 in their best interest.

...

Al

If I were a lawyer I’d argue that cable is STUPID by deciding at all what flag any channel should have. They have the ability to set their head ends just to take whatever flag the content provider has embedded in the source and then pass it down the chain. That’s what I would do. Then they have no liability. By actively making choices they take on liability. And there is NOTHING to be gained by them deciding to be the Judge and Jury as to what they should flag and what shouldn’t.

If I was one of the big cable company’s contract guys I’d tell the content people- just flag things how you want on your end and when it gets to us we’ll be sure to pass along that flag.

If you are HBO, why would you rely on scores of company’s and hundreds if not thousands of head end engineers to set the bits the way you want when you could do it once on your end? Why wouldn’t HBO just set the flag on the stream once when it leaves their uplink? Everyone says HBO is one of the big ones insisting on flags- if that’s the case why don’t they embed it from the get go? And then EVERY single cable plant across the US would be flagging it without any intervention. One engineer at the HBO uplink center turns on the flag for their 20 or so channels vs hundreds of engineers setting thousands of settings all over the US- seems to me by relying on hundreds/thousands of points to set the bits you are only looking for trouble.

It makes no sense at all how this is all being done.

But apparently cable and the content people think this current hit or miss system is best…

[bicker]

If enough go 0x02 then MRV becomes MUCH less usable.Absolutely. Read the TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo forum and you'll already see perhaps dozens of ways MRV and TTG are less valuable than they appear on the surface. Folks expecting these features to work like a virtual "long cable" between their TiVo and where they want to view their content are as likely as not to be disappointed. I would sure love for these features to be far more reliable and far more useful, but I'm not willing to pay what I believe would be necessary to make that happen.

People frequently parrot that Tivo makes certain design choices to keep things simple for the user.Who said that?

[MichaelK]

...

Who said that?

too lazy to search- but it's used all the time as an argument why the free space indicator isn't used. It is used as an argument why you can't gave 2 OTA and 1 Cablecard tuner active.

(I think I'm guilty myself to be sure- but i know I wasn't the first or only)

[TexasGrillChef]

If I were a lawyer I’d argue that cable is STUPID by deciding at all what flag any channel should have. They have the ability to set their head ends just to take whatever flag the content provider has embedded in the source and then pass it down the chain. That’s what I would do. Then they have no liability. By actively making choices they take on liability. And there is NOTHING to be gained by them deciding to be the Judge and Jury as to what they should flag and what shouldn’t.

If I was one of the big cable company’s contract guys I’d tell the content people- just flag things how you want on your end and when it gets to us we’ll be sure to pass along that flag.

If you are HBO, why would you rely on scores of company’s and hundreds if not thousands of head end engineers to set the bits the way you want when you could do it once on your end? Why wouldn’t HBO just set the flag on the stream once when it leaves their uplink? Everyone says HBO is one of the big ones insisting on flags- if that’s the case why don’t they embed it from the get go? And then EVERY single cable plant across the US would be flagging it without any intervention. One engineer at the HBO uplink center turns on the flag for their 20 or so channels vs hundreds of engineers setting thousands of settings all over the US- seems to me by relying on hundreds/thousands of points to set the bits you are only looking for trouble.

It makes no sense at all how this is all being done.

But apparently cable and the content people think this current hit or miss system is best…

Whoever said the industry worked smart, efficiently or logically? They don't, they never have, & probably never will. Although they would like to THINK they do!

TGC

[bicker]

too lazy to search- Okay, but please don't use it as a rebuttal to anything I write. Thanks.

[MichaelK]

Okay, but please don't use it as a rebuttal to anything I write. Thanks.

I didn't intent to say YOU said it at all -sorry if it came out that way.

I tried to narrow it down and did a google search of tivocommunity for "keep it simple" and found 256 instances but seemed much where in the contect of a debate such as "no there's no need to do it that way- keep it simple"...

There were a couple that I saw about keeping it simple like apple or somthing .

and I did poke through an FSI thread or 2 and didn't see anythign but didn't look at all 100 of those threads- so maybe I'm dreaming how prevelent it is.

[ldudek]

Now that we've had that short time out to enjoy the very interesting comments of both MichaelK and from bicker, I have gotten a response from one of my Senators.

I would reprint the whole thing but the point is about half way through I realized that this was a canned letter for people who are saying anything about cable companies that appear negative. It did not address the issue I wrote to him about at all, just about competition not being available in cable companies and how he tried to push legislation through last year but it did not get through the Senate, blah blah blah.

No response from my Congressman or the other Senator, both of which I believe are Republicans. And that's not a knock on Republicans. But at lest I can take the canned letter and tell him look, I recognize a canned letter when I see one and you did not address anything I talked about at all.

My feeling is that there just isn't enough people at this time or maybe anytime to get anything changed on this. I wonder how many people wrote a letter to Congress? Probably not many.

Maybe I'll start a poll. My bet is we will see even from TiVo people either apathy or simply unwillingness to do anything.

[bicker]

My feeling is that there just isn't enough people at this time or maybe anytime to get anything changed on this. I wonder how many people wrote a letter to Congress? Probably not many.I think you're right, and hit the nail on the head. I mentioned this in another thread (somewhere) yesterday: Regulation is as regulation does. Reasonable people can disagree about how to interpret practically any regulation, and surely that is the case for the ones that apply in this case, and so the best indication of what is actually the law is reflected in what is actually happening (at any given time). That method for determining actuality isn't 100%, but it is more reliable than any other means of determining the actuality.

Maybe I'll start a poll. My bet is we will see even from TiVo people either apathy or simply unwillingness to do anything.Well, you'll get arguments from people about how to gauge apathy. The truth is that you need to have just one choice for your poll ("Do you care?") Then take the number of yes-votes and then divide by the total number of TiVo owners (not the number of voters, because apathetic voters don't vote, and not just the number of TCF members, because not being a member of TCF is a form of TiVo-apathy). I bet you'll get an infinitesimally small number for percentage-concerned.

[TexasGrillChef]

Now that we've had that short time out to enjoy the very interesting comments of both MichaelK and from bicker, I have gotten a response from one of my Senators.

I would reprint the whole thing but the point is about half way through I realized that this was a canned letter for people who are saying anything about cable companies that appear negative. It did not address the issue I wrote to him about at all, just about competition not being available in cable companies and how he tried to push legislation through last year but it did not get through the Senate, blah blah blah.

No response from my Congressman or the other Senator, both of which I believe are Republicans. And that's not a knock on Republicans. But at lest I can take the canned letter and tell him look, I recognize a canned letter when I see one and you did not address anything I talked about at all.

My feeling is that there just isn't enough people at this time or maybe anytime to get anything changed on this. I wonder how many people wrote a letter to Congress? Probably not many.

Maybe I'll start a poll. My bet is we will see even from TiVo people either apathy or simply unwillingness to do anything.

As Sad as it is... MOST who complain the most... are the ones LEAST willing to get up off their A** and do anything about it. All they want to do is whine & moan about it, but not do anything about it.

The reason you got the very same letter I did from my congressman... is that it is NOT a pressing issue with them. Why? Because they AREN'T getting 10 or more letters aday complaining about the issue.

Yes, there are over 5 million TiVo's out there being used. If you count the rest of the DVR's there are well over 10 million. The truth is only about 5% (If even that much) of TiVo users even come to "TiVoCommunity" or even realize what is going on with CableCards, & Copy Protection.

Right now... for the major consumer market their issue CURRENTLY is the UPGRADE to HD that is being pushed on them coming February 17th, 2009.

The last thing they want to think about is issues with DVR's/Cablecards/Copy protection. Although they should.

I just laugh though... Like I said before those that COMPLAIN the most about our government USUALLY are the ones LEAST likely to do something about it. (Write a letter, or even VOTE).

The truth is... our government is just like the major networks. If the "Ratings" aren't there. They will "Cancel" your show.

If the RATINGS aren't their for a "Bill" you want passed/introduces. They won't float it. The more phone calls/letters they get about subject the more likely they are to do something about it.


ldudek, & to all the others that took the time to call, write, or email their Congressmen/Senators. THANK YOU.

Even though you got a form letter back... Every letter does help.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Well, you'll get arguments from people about how to gauge apathy. The truth is that you need to have just one choice for your poll ("Do you care?") Then take the number of yes-votes and then divide by the total number of TiVo owners (not the number of voters, because apathetic voters don't vote, and not just the number of TCF members, because not being a member of TCF is a form of TiVo-apathy). I bet you'll get an infinitesimally small number for percentage-concerned.

Exactly one of the points I was trying to make, that you did such a good job of describing.

There are about 5 million Tivo owners (S1, S2 of all varieties, HD, S3)

Don't know how many TCF members there are. Probably 2,500? 5000?

Most I have seen vote in ANY poll was 250 total voters.

So I agree. Those that don't vote... ARE in fact apathetic to the issue being voted on.

I woudln't go so far to say as any TiVo owner that isn't a member of a TCF is apathetic. Some just are "Uneducated" as to their being a TCF. Although most I do agree are apathetic to some degree.


And that my freinds... is the MAIN reason "Content providers" at ALL levels manage to get the power to be able to introduce "Copy protection" and stop alot of technology. Not all of it, but alot of it.

TGC

[acvthree]

I think we need a new Tivo menu choice.

"Press here to send email to your Senator/Congressman".

It would be based on the zip code. It could be called TivoPolitician. Hmmm. the search and select method of writing might be a little tough. Maybe it should pass you to a swivel search for form letters and you could just incude your name.

:-)

Al

[ldudek]

The reason you got the very same letter I did from my congressman... is that it is NOT a pressing issue with them. Why? Because they AREN'T getting 10 or more letters aday complaining about the issue.


Even though you got a form letter back... Every letter does help.

TGC

To be fair, upon further review:

Thank you for sharing your ideas for legislation that would alter cable industry practices relating to the copying and transferring of digital material.

Your suggestions are compelling and I will share them with my legislative aide that handles telecommunications issues.

This is how the letter started out, so someone was smart enough to at least acknowledge I was talking about something a bit different. But then:

At the root of many issues involving unsatisfactory cable service is the need for increased competition in the marketplace.

In the last Congress, legislation entitled the Communications Opportunity, Promotion, and Enhancement (COPE) Act was introduced to deal with the virtual monopoly many cable companies have in the United States. COPE would have fostered competitive entry into the cable television market by streamlining the process by which new entrants obtain a franchise to offer service. The bill also would have expanded the authority of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to set and enforce streamlined requirements. However, the Senate did not vote on this legislation before the end of session and the bill was not signed into law.

That's where it headed into a form letter.

And I'm still waiting on my other Senator and my Congressman. That is if they get back to me. Right now I might be interrupting their trip to the South France or something so maybe that's why it's taking a bit longer.:rolleyes:

[TexasGrillChef]

I think we need a new Tivo menu choice.

"Press here to send email to your Senator/Congressman".

It would be based on the zip code. It could be called TivoPolitician. Hmmm. the search and select method of writing might be a little tough. Maybe it should pass you to a swivel search for form letters and you could just incude your name.

:-)

Al

If I wrote a form letter & posted it hear for people to CUT-N-PASTE to an email to their Congressman/Senators. Would that be of any help?

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

And I'm still waiting on my other Senator and my Congressman. That is if they get back to me. Right now I might be interrupting their trip to the South France or something so maybe that's why it's taking a bit longer.:rolleyes:

Facts about writing your congressmen/senators.

If you send a letter via snail mail, It CAN add up to 2 extra weeks to get to the respective office that you mailed it to. This delay is due to the fact that ALL mail is now scanned for "Dangerous" material such as bombs/Anthrax etc..

Because of this MOST Congressmen/Senators prefer email. This can cut processing time down from an average fo 3 weeks to 1 to 2 weeks. One rule of thumb. DO NOT INCLUDE ANY ATTACHMENTS! This will "PUNT" your e-mail straight to the "Trash bin". If you have further information that is a file. provide a internet link to that file.

Telephone calls are fast, you can even get a reply. However, the information they put down in the "LOG" file is the name of your issue. Not any suggestions that you have for improving the issue you called about. Example: If your calling about Bill HB23678. They will simply register that you are for or against that bill. They will take your name and address. Call is now over.

So if you have specific ideas & thoughts about an issue. It is always best if you e-mail or write them. Calling is only good for immediate pressing issues & if they are going to vote on a bill the next day or in a few days from your phone call.

One last note...

VISITING YOUR CONGRESSMEN/SENATORs.

All congressmen have 2 offices. One in Washington D.C. The other in their home state district.

It IS possible to gain audiance with them. To do so call the office you wish to see them at. Keep in mind that their schedules will determine when you can see them at the office you wish to visit them at. Scheduling an appointment with them must be made at least 3 to 4 months in ADVANCE. Quicker interviews are possible if your issue is considered "URGENT" in nature.

GROUPS of people on one issue have a better chance of obtaining the audiance of their congressmen/senators faster & easier.

It has been a few years since I had an audiance in Texas with Senator Kay Baily Hutchinson.

If you are IN Texas, Dallas area.. and would be interested in forming a GROUP to visit our Texas Congressman on this issue with the cablecards. I would be willing to help out.

Hope that helps everyone... interested in contacting their Congress/Senate.

More information can be found at:

www.Senate.gov

www.house.gov

TGC

[HDTiVo]

My feeling is that there just isn't enough people at this time or maybe anytime to get anything changed on this. I wonder how many people wrote a letter to Congress? Probably not many.


My suggestion, made previously in similar threads, is that several energetic interested Forum members get together to press this issue, and to try to enlist the group TiVo formed last summer to deal with issues in the cable industry to get involved, on the basis that this affects one of the key differentiating features of TiVo. I would suggest this be dealt with within the cable industry primarily, with secondary effort towards the FCC and Congress.

Personally I am not energetic, though I am interested.

[mikeyts]

I see a few misconceptions being bandied about here.

The FCC regulations about how copy protection flags can be applied are based not on whether the content is transmitted in analog or digital form, but on the "business model" used to sell the content. The applicable regulation is Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.1904 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2c5bb2bc1a4484687857c336f399373a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.23.3.4&idno=47):
§ 76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.

(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product.

(b) Except for a specific determination made by the Commission pursuant to a petition with respect to a defined business model other than unencrypted broadcast television, or an undefined business model subject to the procedures set forth in §76.1906:

(1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows:

(i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section; and

(ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and

(2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte).(The terms used in that--"pay television transmission", "non-premium subscription television", etc--are defined in CFR Title 47, §76.1902 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2c5bb2bc1a4484687857c336f399373a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.23.3.2&idno=47)).

In short, paragraph (a) says that the anything in the core basic tier must be marked "Copy Freely"; paragraph (b)(1)(i) says that "video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions" can be marked "Copy Never" and (b)(1)(ii) says that "pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions" (basically everything other than core basic, PPV and VOD) can be marked "Copy One Generation". (When they say "VOD" here, they mean "Pay-Per-Viewing-Period VOD"--free VOD and subscription VOD were "undefined business models").

Other regulations state that all rebroadcasts of local over-the-air transmissions must be in the core basic tier (CFR Title 47, §76.901 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2c5bb2bc1a4484687857c336f399373a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.14.3.1&idno=47)(a)) and that nothing in the core basic tier can be encrypted or scrambled (CFR Title 47, §76.630 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2c5bb2bc1a4484687857c336f399373a&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.14&idno=47)(a)). On most cable systems today, the core basic tier primarily consists of content transmitted in analog form, plus rebroadcasts of local DTV, but even when the non-local stuff goes digital, they still won't be able to mark it "Copy One Generation". (While they're broadcasting the analog unprotected, any digital simulcast can be protected. Some cable providers are mapping core basic channels to their digital simulcast in CableCARDs and setting protections on the simulcast, so CableCARD recorders end up unable to record those channels even though the original analog versions can't be copy protected. If they're setting protections on the simulcasts, they shouldn't be mapping them in CableCARDs. Cox was doing this in San Diego, but I recently moved back to TWC territory and they're not).

As for "streaming instead of copying", how do you suggest that they do that? Anything received through the CableCARD in a secure fashion is subject to the restrictions of the DFAST licensing agreement. That licensing agreement spells out in detail exactly what methods can be used to output content received as protected with DFAST--if it doesn't say that you can output the content in the way that you want, you can't output it that way. There's nothing in those agreements stating that you can transfer protected content via any streaming protocol.

[HDTiVo]

On most cable systems today, the core basic tier primarily consists of content transmitted in analog form, plus rebroadcasts of local DTV, but even when the non-local stuff goes digital, they still won't be able to mark it "Copy One Generation". (While they're broadcasting the analog unprotected, any digital simulcast can be protected. Some cable providers are mapping core basic channels to their digital simulcast in CableCARDs and setting protections on the simulcast, so CableCARD recorders end up unable to record those channels even though the original analog versions can't be copy protected. If they're setting protections on the simulcasts, they shouldn't be mapping them in CableCARDs. Cox was doing this in San Diego, but I recently moved back to TWC territory and they're not).


A personal example: Until recently my cable provider was mapping all simulcast channels to their analog versions. Recently, SCIFI was changed to its digital version. Now, since my cable co. flags (virtually) all digital channels, I can no longer MRV SCIFI shows.

Are there similar regs with regard to SDV and oneway/CC devices which could be used in the SDV/dongle debate?

[moyekj]

Will be interesting to see if/when cable companies start deploying their own MRV solutions if they abide by these "copy once" flags or if they remove the restrictions or ignore them. Currently it seems they ignore 0x03 restrictions as some people have experienced here in some markets many/most digital channels were blanketed with 0x03 settings thus really screwing up Tivo recordings, yet the cable co. DVR happily allowed recordings from those channels to be stored longer than 90 mins.

[mikeyts]

A personal example: Until recently my cable provider was mapping all simulcast channels to their analog versions. Recently, SCIFI was changed to its digital version. Now, since my cable co. flags (virtually) all digital channels, I can no longer MRV SCIFI shows.

Are there similar regs with regard to SDV and oneway/CC devices which could be used in the SDV/dongle debate?Unfortunately, the Sci Fi Channel is usually in an extended basic tier, making it "non-premium subscription television", so they had the right to apply copy protections to the analog channel. If you can't move something that you recorded from one of the core basic channels then there's a problem. When I was living in a Cox San Diego neighborhood, if I recorded something from the standard definition NBC channel I couldn't copy it off TiVo (generally not a problem, since if the program was on a local channel, I'd most probably have recorded the HD version of it, which was properly marked "Copy Freely").

There are no FCC regulations regarding SDV. I can find no mention of it at all in FCC 03-225 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf) the FCC "Second Report and Order and Second Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" that ordered the inclusion of rules implementing plug-and-play-DTV-over-cable into the regulations.

[mikeyts]

Will be interesting to see if/when cable companies start deploying their own MRV solutions if they abide by these "copy once" flags or if they remove the restrictions or ignore them. Currently it seems they ignore 0x03 restrictions as some people have experienced here in some markets many/most digital channels were blanketed with 0x03 settings thus really screwing up Tivo recordings, yet the cable co. DVR happily allowed recordings from those channels to be stored longer than 90 mins.Cable DVRs probably shouldn't ignore those restrictions when they're encoded in the MPEG streams, but what would really be a violation of licensing would be if one of the new model CableCARD-using boxes were to ignore them--that would be DFAST-protected content and ignoring those restrictions would be a violation of DFAST-licensing.

[TexasGrillChef]

MikeyTS...

I knew what the FCC regulation was & how it is covered. That is why from the very beggining my answer to the ORIGINAL OP's question was YES, They can.

From a legal standpoint though. The only way to get that law/regulation changed is to make an issue of it without Congress/Senate/FCC.

I as I know others feel, it is time this law/regulation be changed.

TGC

[CharlesH]

Cable DVRs probably shouldn't ignore those restrictions when they're encoded in the MPEG streams, but what would really be a violation of licensing would be if one of the new model CableCARD-using boxes were to ignore them--that would be DFAST-protected content and ignoring those restrictions would be a violation of DFAST-licensing.I thought that while cable companies were required to use cablecards in new equipment, they weren't required to have them certified by Cablelabs. Thus, they can have upstream capability without necessarily having OCAP. Cablelabs certification means that cable companies have to allow such devices to be used on their system, but they certainly allow the non-certified ones that they themselves lease.

[mikeyts]

I thought that while cable companies were required to use cablecards in new equipment, they weren't required to have them certified by Cablelabs. Thus, they can have upstream capability without necessarily having OCAP. Cablelabs certification means that cable companies have to allow such devices to be used on their system, but they certainly allow the non-certified ones that they themselves lease.It's not certification by CableLabs that matters--it's being signatory to the DFAST licensing that comes along with placing CableCARDs in your device. I believe that OEMs are only required to have their CableCARD devices be certified by an external organization (which doesn't have to be CableLabs) once; after that, future products can be "self-certified". This is goofiness that leads to massive interoperability problems like those seen with HDMI.

Central to the operation of CableCARDs is the copy protection system DFAST (Dynamic Feedback Arrangement Scrambling Technique)--if you implemented a CableCARD host interface, you had to use DFAST, and to use DFAST, you have to license it, and the license agreement says in excrutiating detail exactly how your device may handle content that was encrypted and protected via DFAST once it's been decrypted. If it says that you can't make a permanent recording of it and you do that, then you're breaking that license agreement.

It doesn't help anyone to make the cable providers use CableCARDs if they don't have to comply with all of the restrictions and foibles thereof. The whole purpose of the requirement is to make the cable providers have to make the CableCARDs work for their own use in exactly the same way that 3rd party manufacturers need for it to work.

[HDTiVo]

It doesn't help anyone to make the cable providers use CableCARDs if they don't have to comply with all of the restrictions and foibles thereof. The whole purpose of the requirement is to make the cable providers have to make the CableCARDs work for their own use in exactly the same way that 3rd party manufacturers need for it to work.

The thing is they still get advantages, like pre-installing/authorizing working cards at the home office in their own equipment. ;)

You did a good job of digging up those regs which I had seen long ago probably when pointed to by someone like dt_dc. I was aware of the business model breakdown, and actually used it as a parallel argument for an approach to making cable honor one-way CC devices vis a vis SDV. I think its worth bringing into the SDV threads as a rational approach to how SDV should be handled, keeping things basically consistent across the board whenever reasonable.

[MiaNY]

I spoke with someone at TWC's corporate offices in NYC about their restrictions on almost every channel. They admitted that they are more restrictive in larger cities (esp. with apartment buildings), to hamper those looking to illegally get cable. If they are only doing in in very limited areas, i would say those customers do have a class-action suit. Tivo says it has gotten complaints from NYC and LA, but i don't think it's enough to get them to act.