Transfers Prohibited by Copyright Holder!??

[NaviGATR]

Hey All,

I'm not sure if you've experience this yet or if it's just my problem.

This week I started noticing that pay channels like HBO and Starz have that ghostbuster symbol next to them when I browse them from other TiVos on the network.

I tried to transfer Real Time with Bill Maher yesterday and so this new message... "Transfers Prohibited by Copyright Holder." I thought maybe my HD Tivo was mistaken into thinking it was an HD recording, so I recorded the show again on a different HBO channel. Same deal.

Then I noticed it today on Headcase from Starz.

Has anyone else seen this happening? I don't remember ever having a problem before. I've been recording The Wire upstairs for a while now and transferring it downstairs.

Any thoughts????

Thanx!

Shawn

[lqaddict]

Hey All,

I'm not sure if you've experience this yet or if it's just my problem.

This week I started noticing that pay channels like HBO and Starz have that ghostbuster symbol next to them when I browse them from other TiVos on the network.

I tried to transfer Real Time with Bill Maher yesterday and so this new message... "Transfers Prohibited by Copyright Holder." I thought maybe my HD Tivo was mistaken into thinking it was an HD recording, so I recorded the show again on a different HBO channel. Same deal.

Then I noticed it today on Headcase from Starz.

Has anyone else seen this happening? I don't remember ever having a problem before. I've been recording The Wire upstairs for a while now and transferring it downstairs.

Any thoughts????

Thanx!

Shawn
That means that the content is copyright protected and cannot be copied/transfered - must be a recent addition for the shows you mentioned.
I got sort of the same for the National Geographic's Ultimate Factories, but it is more deceiving - Tivo does not see it as a copy protected, but I can only transfer 160 MB (an opening minute with the commercials) and that's all.

[NaviGATR]

Has TiVo made any mention of this? It seems like a pretty big deal to just sneak out there and not address. And I can understand not allowing you to transfer to a PC in case people are worried about illegal copying... but from one TiVo to another in the same house?? That seems unnecessary and a terrible idea.

What it's going to do is help me make my decision to move to DirecTV. The only thing keeping me from going over is my HD Tivo because it doesn't work with the satellite receivers. But if there is going to be restrictions on moving content around my network now, there's no reason to not just switch, sell the TiVo and use the DirecTV DVR.

Thanx Tivo!

[bkdtv]

NaviGATR,

This wasn't TiVo's decision. The CableLabs' DFAST licensing agreement -- which dictates the terms by which a manufacturer can use CableCards -- expressly prohibits copying of material flagged as "copy once" (CCI 0x02). The same applies to CableCard boxes from all manufacturers, not just TiVo.

To allow remote viewing, TiVo would have to support streaming playback, without copying to disk. TiVo's current software cannot do that, and even the hardware may be incapable of doing so reliably. This is a feature I would expect on a future-generation TiVo, but even then, it will require more than wireless 802.11g. TiVo's 802.11g wireless adapter does not provide sufficient throughput to transfer some high-definition content in realtime, so 802.11n or a wired connection would be required.

At this time, no DirecTV receivers support multi-room viewing of any kind. DirecTV is using essentially the same hardware as TiVo.

[TexasAg]

Has TiVo made any mention of this? It seems like a pretty big deal to just sneak out there and not address. And I can understand not allowing you to transfer to a PC in case people are worried about illegal copying... but from one TiVo to another in the same house?? That seems unnecessary and a terrible idea.

What it's going to do is help me make my decision to move to DirecTV. The only thing keeping me from going over is my HD Tivo because it doesn't work with the satellite receivers. But if there is going to be restrictions on moving content around my network now, there's no reason to not just switch, sell the TiVo and use the DirecTV DVR.

Thanx Tivo!

As bkdtv said, you are jumping the gun blaming Tivo. You can complain to your cable company. Tivo is just following the requirements it is supposed to follow, and going to DTv won't let you do what you want to do anyway.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.

[Gregor]

Has TiVo made any mention of this? It seems like a pretty big deal to just sneak out there and not address. And I can understand not allowing you to transfer to a PC in case people are worried about illegal copying... but from one TiVo to another in the same house?? That seems unnecessary and a terrible idea.

What it's going to do is help me make my decision to move to DirecTV. The only thing keeping me from going over is my HD Tivo because it doesn't work with the satellite receivers. But if there is going to be restrictions on moving content around my network now, there's no reason to not just switch, sell the TiVo and use the DirecTV DVR.

Thanx Tivo!

Tivo has been very up-front about this, it's not their decision.

[lrhorer]

That's perfectly correct. It is also not TiVo who holds any responsibility for marking content as protected. That is the responsibility of your CATV provider at the behest of the copyright owner. It's also nothing new. That proviso was part and parcel of the original CableCard 1.0 spec which was penned years before TiVo came out with the Series 3.

Many CATV providers simply mark all pay channels as copy protected rather than try to worry about which program is copy protected and which few are not.

Note also the same law makes it illegal for your CATV provider to mark any content as protected on a local broadcast channel, no matter who owns the copyright of the program in question. HBO, Showtime, etc are all fair game, however.

[lrhorer]

To allow remote viewing, TiVo would have to support streaming playback, without copying to disk.
Yep.

TiVo's current software cannot do that, and even the hardware may be incapable of doing so reliability.
Actually, I think the current TiVo hardware can. Certainly it can handle a file transfer at much greater speeds than any MPEG-2 video. It should also be able to decrypt the stream in pseudo - real time without any issues. There is however a bottleneck somewhere in the transport mechanism, but the bottleneck appears to be software related. That is for TTCB, however. MRV does not seem to suffer from the issue, so neither hardware nor software is an issue there. I've never had problems with a near real-time MRV transfer.

This is a feature I would expect on a future-generation TiVo, but even then, it will require more than wireless 802.11g. TiVo's 802.11g wireless adapter does not provide sufficient throughput to transfer some high-definition content in realtime, so 802.11n or a wired connection would be required.

And a good one, at that. Even a wired LAN could suffer problems if it is set up improperly or if the user's LAN becomes heavily loaded on an intervening link. Of course, I would think most users would only have a single switch to serve the entire house, and as long as the switch is a halfway decent one, it shouldn't be an issue. Nonetheless, HD video can gulp up a very significant fraction of the available bandwidth on a 100M connection, so network congestion issues are far from impossible to experience. If it's an 802.11n connection, it might be OK, but the signal had better be good and strong and interference free in both directions, and if someone else in the household starts a wireless PC - PC file transfer, watch out.

[BrianAZ]

I wish someone from Tivo would come out and say if they can implement UPNP AV on the Tivo (like a DLink DSM-520). I'd like this option to stream shows between Tivos as well as being able to play my media from my server.

[Icarus]

I tried to transfer Real Time with Bill Maher yesterday and so this new message... "Transfers Prohibited by Copyright Holder." I thought maybe my HD Tivo was mistaken into thinking it was an HD recording, so I recorded the show again on a different HBO channel. Same deal.


I recorded Real Time on Friday on HBOP (non-HD) and the Tivo Desktop doesn't list any restrictions on it. It may be that your cable company flagged it in error. Some cable companies have been known to do that. On the other hand, my cable co may not have flagged it in error.

I have plenty of other HBO programs that are copy protected, so it does seem like my cable company is passing the flags through to the tivo. Their selection of which programs are flagged and which ones aren't always seems rather arbitrary to me.

I don't know what other people are seeing for HBO programs, but if you're seeing every program on HBO flagged, it seems like your cable co may be doing the wrong thing. The cable companies are just supposed to pass the flags through, not insert them if the programming isn't flagged in the first place.

-David

[rocko]

I don't know what other people are seeing for HBO programs, but if you're seeing every program on HBO flagged, it seems like your cable co may be doing the wrong thing. The cable companies are just supposed to pass the flags through, not insert them if the programming isn't flagged in the first place.

-David

HBO is up to something for sure. Previous recordings of Entourage and Curb Your Enthusiasm used to transfer fine but now are copy protected. An odd thing is I have an unprotected episode of CYE that is newer than others that are protected. BTW, the title of the unprotected episode is "The TiVo Guy". :D

For sure I don't see the sense in preventing TiVo to TiVo transfers but I'm guessing that the TTG mechanism is essentially the same as T2T so it prevents both.

[Icarus]

BTW, the title of the unprotected episode is "The TiVo Guy". :D


That was a funny episode. :)

-David

[kupe]

HBO is up to something for sure. Previous recordings of Entourage and Curb Your Enthusiasm used to transfer fine but now are copy protected.

Hmmm, I just checked the latest HBO recordings on my Tivo HD and they transfer just fine to my S2- including CYE. The only shows that I can't transfer to the S2 are (of course) my HD shows. This is on Comcast Atlanta.

Kupe

[m_jonis]

That's perfectly correct. It is also not TiVo who holds any responsibility for marking content as protected. That is the responsibility of your CATV provider at the behest of the copyright owner. It's also nothing new. That proviso was part and parcel of the original CableCard 1.0 spec which was penned years before TiVo came out with the Series 3.

Many CATV providers simply mark all pay channels as copy protected rather than try to worry about which program is copy protected and which few are not.

Note also the same law makes it illegal for your CATV provider to mark any content as protected on a local broadcast channel, no matter who owns the copyright of the program in question. HBO, Showtime, etc are all fair game, however.

"At the behest of the copyright owner." is the key phrase there.

I believe TW and some other cable co's are doing this WITHOUT the request of the copyright holder.

But unfortunately there appears to be no luck getting them to switch back.

[rocko]

Hmmm, I just checked the latest HBO recordings on my Tivo HD and they transfer just fine to my S2- including CYE. The only shows that I can't transfer to the S2 are (of course) my HD shows. This is on Comcast Atlanta.

Kupe

Well Cablevision of NJ is the culprit, I'd imagine - as exhibited here (no comments about iCarly, please - I have a 12 year old :rolleyes:). :

http://rjocko.dns2go.com/images/recordings.png

And what's even stranger is that "Entourage" is no longer protected - it was yesterday. I'm confused now.

[JoN8282]

I have cablevision in oakland of NJ and have no problems whatsoever with hbo - i just xfered the new George Carlin special in HD to my computer for safe keeping :)

[joec00l]

This sounds like more DRM bullsh** that we can continue to expect from media companies, not Tivo who is actually trying to help rather than hurt the viewer's ability to view content the way they want. You are absolutely right that it is a terrible idea and doesn't even benefit the businesses that mandate the limitation even though they are too stupid to realize it. Pissing off consumers is generally not good for business.

Probably there is nothing you can do about it other than whine to HBO.

[Underclaw]

In my house I cannot figure out why the TivoHD upstairs will prevent transfer because of copyright (transfer from S3 downstairs) but the S3 can transfer THE SAME show if it was recorded on the TivoHD. It is like the S3 does not get the flags and allow all.

[gamo62]

Is there a LIST of channels and/or programs that should have the flag? All digitial channels, HD channels, or just PREMIUM HD channels. If there was a guideline, perhaps we would have more leverage against the cable companies. And if there are FCC rules regarding this issue, a posting of that as well might help.

[Roderigo]

In my house I cannot figure out why the TivoHD upstairs will prevent transfer because of copyright (transfer from S3 downstairs) but the S3 can transfer THE SAME show if it was recorded on the TivoHD. It is like the S3 does not get the flags and allow all.

Do you have cablecards in both boxes? If so, you may be getting analog on one box, but digital simulcast on the other. Or, that's still a possible explanation if they've assigned two different channel maps to the cards.

[SugarBowl]

As bkdtv said, you are jumping the gun blaming Tivo. You can complain to your cable company. Tivo is just following the requirements it is supposed to follow, and going to DTv won't let you do what you want to do anyway.

Is the cable company the copyright holder of every show?

[rocko]

Just an update - I checked the CCI byte on HBOC (303 Cablevision NJ) and it's set to x:02 which explains the copy protection.

[TexasAg]

Is the cable company the copyright holder of every show?

Huh? The cable company sets the CCI values. Tivo has to follow them. It doesn't matter if the cable company is the copyright holder. If there is a problem with the CCI value, you need to talk to your cable company.
__________________
My personal opinions are just that. Don't rely on anything I say - I could be Bill Gates' pool boy.

[bpollard]

Does Galleon get around this copyright issue?

[wmcbrine]

No.

[sgtstadanko]

i am getting the transfer blocks on my TivoHD for Fox and BBCA while no blocks on my Series 2 for transferring. Fox is a local OTA broadcast channel as well.

[Gregor]

i am getting the transfer blocks on my TivoHD for Fox and BBCA while no blocks on my Series 2 for transferring. Fox is a local OTA broadcast channel as well.

You won't see them on the S2. It's only on digital channels. In some systems once you use a cablecard, the analog channels are then available as digital.

[sgtstadanko]

well wow that sucks. i wont be able to transfer any shows recorded on my TivoHD. i know its not tivo's fault but they should make that better known.

[sinanju]

well wow that sucks. i wont be able to transfer any shows recorded on my TivoHD. i know its not tivo's fault but they should make that better known.

Have you tried taking the issue up with your cable company?

[bpollard]

Have you tried taking the issue up with your cable company?

You are kidding, right?!?! You must have the patience of a saint to contact your cable company to try and resolve this....

[sinanju]

You are kidding, right?!?! You must have the patience of a saint to contact your cable company to try and resolve this....

Well, I started with them and support had no idea what I was talking about. So, I contacted my local franchise authority, explained the situation, and they contacted Comcast on my behalf. A few emails, one or two phone calls, and about 6 weeks later, my entire lineup, with the exception of one channel that actually does want copy protection, is now protection-free.

So, yes... contact your cable company and your franchise authority.

And, no, I am not patient. In fact, I did all of this long before TTG was enabled on the S3 knowing that it would be an issue once TTG was turned on.

[bpollard]

Well, I started with them and support had no idea what I was talking about. So, I contacted my local franchise authority, explained the situation, and they contacted Comcast on my behalf. A few emails, one or two phone calls, and about 6 weeks later, my entire lineup, with the exception of one channel that actually does want copy protection, is now protection-free.

So, yes... contact your cable company and your franchise authority.

And, no, I am not patient. In fact, I did all of this long before TTG was enabled on the S3 knowing that it would be an issue once TTG was turned on.

What is a franchise authority?

[m_jonis]

Well, I started with them and support had no idea what I was talking about. So, I contacted my local franchise authority, explained the situation, and they contacted Comcast on my behalf. A few emails, one or two phone calls, and about 6 weeks later, my entire lineup, with the exception of one channel that actually does want copy protection, is now protection-free.

So, yes... contact your cable company and your franchise authority.

And, no, I am not patient. In fact, I did all of this long before TTG was enabled on the S3 knowing that it would be an issue once TTG was turned on.

Wow.

I contacted our franchise authority (New York State Public Service Commission) and they said they do not have the authority to oversee the cable companies and forwarded my complaint to the FCC.

[sinanju]

What is a franchise authority?

That depends where you live. Each town in my state has an elected cable board that negotiates with the cable companies and picks one to be the cable provider for a period of time. The board also provides ongoing supervision of the deal. They don't do much and they aren't paid, but they can handle complaints of this sort and they have contacts to which I had no access, myself.

My approach was to point out that many of the copy protected channels offer Cable in the Classroom programming and the license on that programming specifically allowed copying. VCRs have gone the way of the dinosaur and its unreasonable to expect a teacher to bring their DVR to class. Even considering non-educational programming, with one exception, Comcast wasn't protecting the content at the provider's request -- it seemed unreasonable to think that TV Land really cared if I burned a DVD of an episode of Sanford and Son.

Whatever approach you take, try to keep it simple, polite, and professional and things might just work out.

[dravrah1]

I was browsing one of my Tivo HDs remotely from one of my other tivos this evening and too my surprise I came across that lovely red circle with a slash thru it.
After some more digging I found that all non-network shows on both my Tivo HDs that recorded since sometime thursday evening are marked as "Transfering Prohibited by the copyright holder".

I sincerely doubt that every copyright holder decided to do this at the same time... so I'm going to assume that this is Time Warners decision. If it was happening to just one channel or to all of them, then I might think that this was a mistake. I hope that it is... but I am worried.

So, is this happening to anyone else in a Time Warner area out there? Does anyone know who I might contact there to find out if this is a mistake? (I am really dreading trying to rectify this thru regular support channels).

I am not happy about this and I am concerned that this might be a new policy of Time Warners to limit the usefulness of our Tivos :(

Well, I hope this isn't happening to too many others.

Thanks,
- Harv

[matthewwhite]

I've found that they've set all digital programing to not allow transfering, but analog non network will transfer. (non HD scifi for example or tnt).

any digital or non local HD won't transfer. This is not a mistake but was done on purpose by TW. you may have some success getting your local franchise to listen to reason.

[lafos]

Good luck with TWC. There have been a lot of messages in the TWC thread about this. I did send them an e-mail pointing out that it seemed odd that everything digital had to be cci 02. I had moved from a Mediacom area, and virtually nothing was flagged there. Their response was "this is the way it is".

[ajwees41]

Well, I started with them and support had no idea what I was talking about. So, I contacted my local franchise authority, explained the situation, and they contacted Comcast on my behalf. A few emails, one or two phone calls, and about 6 weeks later, my entire lineup, with the exception of one channel that actually does want copy protection, is now protection-free.

So, yes... contact your cable company and your franchise authority.

And, no, I am not patient. In fact, I did all of this long before TTG was enabled on the S3 knowing that it would be an issue once TTG was turned on.

what channel wants protection?

[aaronwt]

Yep.


Actually, I think the current TiVo hardware can. Certainly it can handle a file transfer at much greater speeds than any MPEG-2 video. It should also be able to decrypt the stream in pseudo - real time without any issues. There is however a bottleneck somewhere in the transport mechanism, but the bottleneck appears to be software related. That is for TTCB, however. MRV does not seem to suffer from the issue, so neither hardware nor software is an issue there. I've never had problems with a near real-time MRV transfer.


As far a copy proctection, so far nothing is copy protected on FIOS. On comcast here most HD was copy protected. I would think the final soultion is something in between. But I do like the fact that nothing on FIOS has been restricted from transfer.


And a good one, at that. Even a wired LAN could suffer problems if it is set up improperly or if the user's LAN becomes heavily loaded on an intervening link. Of course, I would think most users would only have a single switch to serve the entire house, and as long as the switch is a halfway decent one, it shouldn't be an issue. Nonetheless, HD video can gulp up a very significant fraction of the available bandwidth on a 100M connection, so network congestion issues are far from impossible to experience. If it's an 802.11n connection, it might be OK, but the signal had better be good and strong and interference free in both directions, and if someone else in the household starts a wireless PC - PC file transfer, watch out.

I use nine switches with two routers inline for over 36 devices. All devices connect just as fast as if I had one switch. Of course all my switches(and one router) are gigabit.

[wmcbrine]

I use nine switches with two routers inline for over 36 devices.Wow, and I thought I was hardcore. :D Me with my pitiful three switches and one router...

[bpollard]

YUP, TWC in New York City was the same way.... everything was flagged and calling their office was a huge waste of time.

[jbjust]

I was able to resolve the issue with Richmond Comcast after about 10 phone calls and a conference call with somebody from Tivo. I was ultimately able to send a link to the thread on this board where we were discussing the issue and that broke the logjam.

[bpollard]

I was able to resolve the issue with Richmond Comcast after about 10 phone calls and a conference call with somebody from Tivo. I was ultimately able to send a link to the thread on this board where we were discussing the issue and that broke the logjam.

who was your Tivo contact?

[RichO]

I just switched to AT+T U-verse and am now discovering this symbol next to certain network broadcasts such as CSI.

Yes I simply want to transfer a show to view in a different room and now I can't with some shows. Is this going to be the wave of the future with all TV shows?

What a bunch of crap. :mad:

[aaronwt]

The OTA network broadcasts(or rebroadcasts on cable) aren't supposed to be restricted. I can understand other channels possibly being restricted since all other channels receive a subscription fee with ESPN being the highest.

[RichO]

I just sent an e-mail to U-Verse informing them of the problem. It appears that every show I record from the local network channels is copy protected.

all other channels receive a subscription fee
I believe that local channels are also being paid a subscriber fee from the television provider. My local cable company just had a dispute with one of the local channels over this and dropped them from their lineup during negotiations.....which is the reason I switched.

I guess I'll have to wait and see if I get a response. Otherwise, does anyone know of a source for information on bypassing this flag?

[Hcour]

Hello. I'm considering getting tivo and I was reading thru this thread. Does this also affect copying recordings from tivo to your computer hard drive?

Thanks,
Harold

[RichO]

Yes. Tivo will not let you transfer any protected programs to another Tivo or any computer.

[RichO]

With my U-Verse, it appears that the primary TV receiver does not write the copy protection to recorded programs but the secondary receiver does. Because I do almost all of my program transferring from my secondary Tivo to my primary Tivo, I switched the 2 receivers between rooms and hopefully that will help the matter somewhat. I guess this is the best I can do at this point.