Official: LA-DNS MPEG2 HD shutdown on March 31, 2008

[ebonovic]

March 31, 2008 is when the LA DNS MPEG-2 HD channels will be shutdown.

(For a copy of the official DirecTV notification being sent out:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=120804 )

[Mark Lopez]

So where are all of the 'It's never going to happen' or 'It will be at least a few years away' folks now? :)

[gio1269]

So where are all of the 'It's never going to happen' or 'It will be at least a few years away' folks now? :)LMAO!

[rminsk]

So where are all of the 'It's never going to happen' or 'It will be at least a few years away' folks now? :)They were here a few years ago...

[rickmeoff]

wow, both bud and lou responded.

:D

[Mark Lopez]

They were here a few years ago...

Well, from just from this past Dec (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=377486), we have:

Not gonna happen. CSR doesn't have a clue.

and a lot of other naysayers. I just find it odd that when some folks are proven wrong, you never hear them admit it. Just the sound of crickets in the background. :)


wow, both bud and lou responded.

:D


And speaking of naysayers, from that same thread:

actually, id take the word of someone posting on this forum over something a clueless csr says. but try and keep up; it was posted on this forum as part of a quarterly cc from dtv a while back.

And BTW, here is one of my quotes from that thread. :)

: Those who say it will 'never happen' or be years away have given no reason for their statement other than ' I heard it from someone, somewhere'. I am waiting for someone to give a logical reason why it would take them longer than 3-6 months to do it if they wanted.

[incog-neato]

That was posted a week or so ago. They will continue to be "simulcast" in MPEG4 on the Ku sats until 9/1.

Edit: The reason this was done (keeping these MPEG4 channels on Ku) is to allow more time for multi-dwelling properties to convert to MFH2/3 due to the shortage of equipment.

[ebonovic]

That was posted a week or so ago. They will continue to be "simulcast" in MPEG4 on the Ku sats until 9/1.

Edit: The reason this was done (keeping these MPEG4 channels on Ku) is to allow more time for multi-dwelling properties to convert to MFH2/3 due to the shortage of equipment.

Did you not read the letter that was scanned and posted in the thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12547&d=1203922039

Specifically stating that on March 31st... the MPEG-2 LA DNS will no longer be available...

Do you think they are just going to shut it off for those non-MDU customers?
While letting it still be in the stream for the MDU...

[Scott D]

Did you not read the letter that was scanned and posted in the thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12547&d=1203922039

Specifically stating that on March 31st... the MPEG-2 LA DNS will no longer be available...

Do you think they are just going to shut it off for those non-MDU customers?
While letting it still be in the stream for the MDU...

DirecTV is denying the whole thing. ANYTIME you change a receiver, you WILL get a two year commitment. Not the part about LA. Just the commitment.

[Scott D]

Hey, ebonovic....


If I have HD programming package with a MPEG2 receivers and want to get an HD MPEG4 receiver, would that officially be considered an upgrade?

Another question. What if my HR10-250 fried and I need it replaced? Since they have no more of those, would I still have to get a commitment on the replacement?

[incog-neato]

Huh? I have no idea what your point is. Maybe we agree but I don't quite understand your message. Unfortunately I am unable to post the email I have for obvious reasons. I stated that they WILL BE turning off MPEG2 on 3/31 but will also be providing the MPEG4 SIGNAL off the Ku sats so that the hundreds of thousands of mdu customers (including mdu DNS) will still be able to receive them because their buildings are unable to upgrade to MFH2/3 at this time due to equipment, contract and cost issues. This was negotiated between the DTV mdu division and the major mdu system operators. Obviously NON-mdu type customers will still be able to get the same signals. The point being only the receivers need to be changed at this time and (until 8/31) the 3LNB dish will still be able to receive the MPEG4 LA HD-Locals.

Kapish?




Did you not read the letter that was scanned and posted in the thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12547&d=1203922039

Specifically stating that on March 31st... the MPEG-2 LA DNS will no longer be available...

Do you think they are just going to shut it off for those non-MDU customers?
While letting it still be in the stream for the MDU...

[hiker]

...
The point being only the receivers need to be changed at this time and (until 8/31) the 3LNB dish will still be able to receive the MPEG4 LA HD-Locals.Just to double check... if I have only a 3 LNB dish and a HR20, will I continue to receive LA DNS-HD, as I do now, until 8/31?

[dishrich]

The point being only the receivers need to be changed at this time and (until 8/31) the 3LNB dish will still be able to receive the MPEG4 LA HD-Locals.

Uh, you might want to go back & check your homework - 3LNB dishes DO NOT, & have NEVER, picked up ANY MPEG4 signals whatsoever... :confused: :rolleyes:

[ebonovic]

Huh? I have no idea what your point is. Maybe we agree but I don't quite understand your message. Unfortunately I am unable to post the email I have for obvious reasons. I stated that they WILL BE turning off MPEG2 on 3/31 but will also be providing the MPEG4 SIGNAL off the Ku sats so that the hundreds of thousands of mdu customers (including mdu DNS) will still be able to receive them because their buildings are unable to upgrade to MFH2/3 at this time due to equipment, contract and cost issues. This was negotiated between the DTV mdu division and the major mdu system operators. Obviously NON-mdu type customers will still be able to get the same signals. The point being only the receivers need to be changed at this time and (until 8/31) the 3LNB dish will still be able to receive the MPEG4 LA HD-Locals.

Kapish?

I understand what you are saying... and I disagree with what you are saying.
I just don't see it happening that way... based on all the information I have available to me.

As pointed out by others... the 3LNB dish, can not see the two sats where the MPEG-4 LA HD-Locals/DNS are being broadcasted from.

So unless DirecTV changes course, and starts to broadcast MPEG-4 from the 101/110/119 slots.. (which what would the point be as it will still take up at least half of the space the MPEG-2 does, and doesn't really help the situation that much)....

Comes March 31st... MDU customers that have had their systems updated to MFH2/3 are going to go dark on LA-DNS.

[ebonovic]

Just to double check... if I have only a 3 LNB dish and a HR20, will I continue to receive LA DNS-HD, as I do now, until 8/31?

No, you will not.

You will need to upgraded to a 5LNB... as the LA DNS-HD will be broadcasted from the 99/103 slots

[incog-neato]

That is exactly what I am saying. On a temporary basis and until 8/31 and (so far) only for LA HD Locals. This is the second contact regarding this issue. The first was about 8 weeks ago.

Maybe they should contact you to be corrected? Or maybe I am misreading their email? I REALLY hope you are wrong, and not to just say "I told you so" but because if they are wrong they have made a blunder of MAJOR proportions affecting THOUSANDS of our customers. If so we have a lot of phone calls to make. Also, they provided us with a 2 phone scripts THEY (DTV) will be using to call the customers which explains the same thing in less technical terms.

Here is a "generalization" from the letter.

Dear xxxxxxxxx –

DIRECTV is planning to migrate the Los Angeles Local HD Channels to the KA band spectrum by September 1, 2008. The customer impact will be 2-phased:
(1)The channels will first convert to the MPEG4 format on the Ku band, beginning March 31, 2008 which allows MPEG4 receiver customers to continue to receive the channels.
(2)By September 1, 2008 customers will require both MPEG4 receivers and the MFH-2 technology to receive the channels.

This notice is to inform you that xxxxxxxx has xxxx customers impacted by this change. Attached is the list of xxxxxxxxx customers with MPEG2 receivers who need to be upgraded to MPEG4 receivers by March 31, 2008, in order to continue receiving the LA Local HD Channels. These customers/properties will then need to be upgraded to MFH-2 by September 1, 2008 when the LA Local HD Channels migrate to the KA band spectrum. .

Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx@DirecTV.com




So unless DirecTV changes course, and starts to broadcast MPEG-4 from the 101/110/119 slots.. (which what would the point be as it will still take up at least half of the space the MPEG-2 does, and doesn't really help the situation that much).....

[incog-neato]

There is first time for everything. "Picking up" an MPEG4 signal is no different then "Picking up" an MPEG2 signal. If it is broadcast on the correct frequency it can be "picked up.": :rolleyes:;):confused::D:o:pUh, you might want to go back & check your homework - 3LNB dishes DO NOT, & have NEVER, picked up ANY MPEG4 signals whatsoever... :confused: :rolleyes:

[ebonovic]

That is exactly what I am saying. On a temporary basis and until 8/31 and (so far) only for LA HD Locals. This is the second contact regarding this issue. The first was about 8 weeks ago.

Maybe they should contact you to be corrected? Or maybe I am misreading their email? I REALLY hope you are wrong, and not to just say "I told you so" but because if they are wrong they have made a blunder of MAJOR proportions affecting THOUSANDS of our customers. If so we have a lot of phone calls to make. Also, they provided us with a 2 phone scripts THEY (DTV) will be using to call the customers which explains the same thing in less technical terms.

Here is a "generalization" from the letter.

Dear xxxxxxxxx –

DIRECTV is planning to migrate the Los Angeles Local HD Channels to the KA band spectrum by September 1, 2008. The customer impact will be 2-phased:
(1)The channels will first convert to the MPEG4 format on the Ku band, beginning March 31, 2008 which allows MPEG4 receiver customers to continue to receive the channels.
(2)By September 1, 2008 customers will require both MPEG4 receivers and the MFH-2 technology to receive the channels.

This notice is to inform you that xxxxxxxx has xxxx customers impacted by this change. Attached is the list of xxxxxxxxx customers with MPEG2 receivers who need to be upgraded to MPEG4 receivers by March 31, 2008, in order to continue receiving the LA Local HD Channels. These customers/properties will then need to be upgraded to MFH-2 by September 1, 2008 when the LA Local HD Channels migrate to the KA band spectrum. .

Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx@DirecTV.com


Well... I have forwarded your letter onto the people at DirecTV... that I talk to, to get some more feedback..

I have no problem being wrong on this...
Just find it shockingly odd that they would go through all the effort to remove the MPEG-2 LA DNS from the Ku... just to take up most of the space with the MPEG-4 versions... when they already have the MPEG-4 versions on the CONUS Ka stream....

So you have to replace every receiver in a MDU.. with an MPEG-4 compatible one... and they won't even be able to access any of the other MPEG-4 channels...

[incog-neato]

This way they can still get the MPEG 4 locals until the properties can be upgraded. There is still an extreme shortage of equipment, contract issues and expense. So they need all the extra time they can get programming without losing their locals (bad enough they can't get the new programming yet). The original email stated it would be on BOTH Ku and Ka until 9/1. This one seems to say Ku only until 9/1.


Well... I have forwarded your letter onto the people at DirecTV... that I talk to, to get some more feedback..

I have no problem being wrong on this...
Just find it shockingly odd that they would go through all the effort to remove the MPEG-2 LA DNS from the Ku... just to take up most of the space with the MPEG-4 versions... when they already have the MPEG-4 versions on the CONUS Ka stream....

So you have to replace every receiver in a MDU.. with an MPEG-4 compatible one... and they won't even be able to access any of the other MPEG-4 channels...

[incog-neato]

Every legacy HD RX. This only applies to HD locals. Many people have new MPEG4 receivers even though they can't get all the programming. So you have to replace every receiver in a MDU.. with an MPEG-4 compatible one... and they won't even be able to access any of the other MPEG-4 channels...

[ebonovic]

Every legacy HD RX. This only applies to HD locals. Many people have new MPEG4 receivers even though they can't get all the programming.

Well yes... you wouldn't have to replace an existing MPEG-4 box.

[ebonovic]

This way they can still get the MPEG 4 locals until the properties can be upgraded. There is still an extreme shortage of equipment, contract issues and expense. So they need all the extra time they can get programming without losing their locals (bad enough they can't get the new programming yet). The original email stated it would be on BOTH Ku and Ka until 9/1. This one seems to say Ku only until 9/1.

The spot beamed-locals have been on Ka for a while now.
And the new 300's based channels are comming from the Ka stream as well, right now.

It will be intresting to see what happens on April 1.

[dishrich]

There is first time for everything. "Picking up" an MPEG4 signal is no different then "Picking up" an MPEG2 signal. If it is broadcast on the correct frequency it can be "picked up."

This way they can still get the MPEG 4 locals until the properties can be upgraded. There is still an extreme shortage of equipment, contract issues and expense.

Uh, OK, but as ebonovic is telling you, what IS the point of taking the existing MPEG2 signals on Ku & changing them to MPEG4??? Both legacy AND MPEG4 HD receivers are backward compatible with MPEG2 on the 110/119 slots, so there is NOTHING stopping D* from swapping all the legacy boxes in those MDU's, while leaving up the existing MPEG2 feeds as is. Other than saving a LITTLE bandwidth on Ku, D* is NOT gaining a thing by doing this - something just does not sound right here; I think it's just a question of the letter being poorly worded... :confused:

Hopefully, ebonovic will get to the bottom of this, because it makes NO fricken sense ...

[incog-neato]

The reason was explained TWICE. Uh, OK, but as ebonovic is telling you, what IS the point of taking the existing MPEG2 signals on Ku & changing them to MPEG4??? Both legacy AND MPEG4 HD receivers are backward compatible with MPEG2 on the 110/119 slots, so there is NOTHING stopping D* from swapping all the legacy boxes in those MDU's, while leaving up the existing MPEG2 feeds as is. Other than saving a LITTLE bandwidth on Ku, D* is NOT gaining a thing by doing this - something just does not sound right here; I think it's just a question of the letter being poorly worded... :confused:

Hopefully, ebonovic will get to the bottom of this, because it makes NO fricken sense ...

[dishrich]

The reason was explained TWICE.

You can "explain" & YELL it 100 times & it STILL DOESN'T make ANY sense... :rolleyes: :confused:

[ebonovic]

The reason was explained TWICE.

I understand your reason that you explained...

But as posted... it doesn't make much sense.

What is DirecTV gaining by putting a duplicate MPEG-4 encoded stream on the Ku band?

There is a savings in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 from a bandwith point of view... but I just can't see it being that big, for a 6 month period... to make it worth it.

You are then ticking off your non-mdu customers, while you could avoid that issue and convert more of them for 6 more months, until you are ready to completely turn it off. And ticking off the mdu customers, that haven't completed even the MPEG-4 receiver upgrades...

[incog-neato]

Lots of things in life don't make sense but yet they regularly occur.You can "explain" & YELL it 100 times & it STILL DOESN'T make ANY sense... :rolleyes: :confused:

[incog-neato]

It seems there will 1 set of channels Ka and another set Ku. Won't have any effect on non-mdu customers. I'm looking for another email describing that. WHile it doesn't make much sense looking at it from a residential view it does from an mdu view. It's just a time extender so customers won't lose their locals yet won't need to have their buildings converted until the fall. Equipment is a MAJOR issue (as well ac=s property contracts etc).

I understand your reason that you explained...

But as posted... it doesn't make much sense.

What is DirecTV gaining by putting a duplicate MPEG-4 encoded stream on the Ku band?

There is a savings in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 from a bandwith point of view... but I just can't see it being that big, for a 6 month period... to make it worth it.

You are then ticking off your non-mdu customers, while you could avoid that issue and convert more of them for 6 more months, until you are ready to completely turn it off. And ticking off the mdu customers, that haven't completed even the MPEG-4 receiver upgrades...

[dishrich]

WHile it doesn't make much sense looking at it from a residential view it does from an mdu view.

OK again, HOW does it make sense from an mdu view???

Do mdu's that currently get HD LA networks ALREADY get them today, right???
They also get them with legacy HD receivers, right???
That means that (obviously) they ARE seeing the 110/119 birds, which ALSO means they are using the current MPEG2 streams, right???
You DO know that MPEG4 HD boxes CAN already see these current MPEG2 streams today, right, with NO changes to these same existing streams, right???
You DO know that MPEG4 HD boxes CAN already work with the same, legacy mdu equipment that is currently in place, right???

So, if all the above statements are correct - WHERE does this make sense for mdu's???
If you really don't know, or can't explain it, then just say so. :confused:

Lots of things in life don't make sense but yet they regularly occur.

Unfortunately...

[incog-neato]

:eek:

OK again, HOW does it make sense from an mdu view???

Do mdu's that currently get HD LA networks ALREADY get them today, right???
They also get them with legacy HD receivers, right???
That means that (obviously) they ARE seeing the 110/119 birds, which ALSO means they are using the current MPEG2 streams, right???
You DO know that MPEG4 HD boxes CAN already see these current MPEG2 streams today, right, with NO changes to these same existing streams, right???
You DO know that MPEG4 HD boxes CAN already work with the same, legacy mdu equipment that is currently in place, right???

So, if all the above statements are correct - WHERE does this make sense for mdu's???
If you really don't know, or can't explain it, then just say so. :confused:



Unfortunately...

[MichaelK]

Earl is cleary the resident expert- but I dont think it's all that crazy that they would convert the mpeg2 to mpeg4 on KU.

Maybe they want the space to put a couple more channels on Ku in the spring (maybe for MLB EI?). And they want even more room in the fall?

At some point they need to set an arbitrary date to force people to change. This way they can split the arbitrary date to 2 points and try to manage any rushes a bit batter. Didn't DISH call a pile of channels MPEG4 for months even though they were really MPEG2 just to force people to get upgraded equipment? I dont see how it's that much different from that move.

Of course it's not worth much so earl sure could be correct with his guess too.

[MichaelK]

tell ya what- i think incog-neato coule very well be spot on.

read the letter scanned in the link posted by earl.

The body specificlaly says you will need a new mpeg4 receiver. It doesn't say anything about a new dish.

It says they will provide a free receiver and I dont see anything about a free dish or dish install.

(the bottom has the typical disclaimner in fine print about 5lnb dish and 9.95- but to me it looks like boilerplate- if it was inmportant to have a new dish wouldn't they say so directly above in the body?)

[incog-neato]

Everyone has to understand. This would only be TEMPORARY (until 8/31) then it would al be Ka. I am not stating this would be permanent.

[shibby191]

Basically to clear it up you are saying this:

*Everyone* getting LA HD locals and DNS will need an MPEG4 receiver, period.
But a 5 LNB won't be required until 8/31 because MDU (apartments, condo's, etc) aren't all upgraded to 5 LNB dishes yet (or the internal equipment to pass on the KA signals isn't upgraded yet) and this gives them 6 months to get those swapped out.

Am I correct in this summary?

[Wirelezz]

... read the letter scanned in the link posted by earl.

The body specificlaly says you will need a new mpeg4 receiver. It doesn't say anything about a new dish.

It says they will provide a free receiver and I dont see anything about a free dish or dish install.

(the bottom has the typical disclaimner in fine print about 5lnb dish and 9.95- but to me it looks like boilerplate- if it was inmportant to have a new dish wouldn't they say so directly above in the body?)

Not necessarily. The letter is clearly designed to motivate D* subs to upgrade their equipment. But generally speaking the most important disclosures in any (consumer) document are commonly buried somewhere in the "fine print." And in this case it is clearly stated:

"... a 5-LNB Multi-Satellite Dish along with a DIRECTV HD Receiver [H20, H21, HR20, HR21], HD Television equipment and a qualifying programming package are REQUIRED."

However incog-neato's information seems valid to me. Earl has stated he has forwarded incog-neato's email to his sources at D*, verification from those sources would put this "dish debate" to rest.

[Wirelezz]

Basically to clear it up you are saying this:

*Everyone* getting LA HD locals and DNS will need an MPEG4 receiver, period.
But a 5 LNB won't be required until 8/31 because MDU (apartments, condo's, etc) aren't all upgraded to 5 LNB dishes yet (or the internal equipment to pass on the KA signals isn't upgraded yet) and this gives them 6 months to get those swapped out.

Am I correct in this summary?

You got it! :up:

[Wirelezz]

The information on D* CH 85 indicates that the 5LNB dish will be necessary in March. Whether or not this is really the case, it's apparent that D* wants their subs to believe it's so.

Here's a screenshot of CH 85:

http://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/dtv.jpg

.

[MichaelK]

The information on D* CH 85 indicates that the 5LNB dish will be necessary in March. Whether or not this is really the case, it's apparent that D* wants their subs to believe it's so.



i think that's important.

they want people to believe. Just like DISH wanted people to believe their MPEG2 channels were really MPEG4.

At some point you have to push people and March is that point.

The question is did they leave some wiggle room in there by planning on MPEG4 on Ku so only receivers have to be swapped immediately or are they going to go cold turkey and need recievers and dishes done right away.

I'd like to hear what earl hears back. Personally I suspect it will confrim the wiggle room theory but dont really have a clue myself.

One question- the reason people point to the wiggle room theory being silly is little bandwidth will be gained. Well does directv need more then a little bandwidth on their KU birds at this time? Is there a big pile of SD content to get added shortly that they need more than a little room? Why now anyway- is there any reason they need the Ku room now? I guessed above for SD MLB IE- is that the likley culprit? Or maybe they are adding more Ku locals? (hmmm- does their lease on the canuck satellite at 72 end soon?)

[incog-neato]

Si! That's it.

Edit: Assuming what D* told us is correct. If they misled us, or incorrectly informed us, it will be one very large pile of dog stuff they caused.Basically to clear it up you are saying this:

*Everyone* getting LA HD locals and DNS will need an MPEG4 receiver, period.
But a 5 LNB won't be required until 8/31 because MDU (apartments, condo's, etc) aren't all upgraded to 5 LNB dishes yet (or the internal equipment to pass on the KA signals isn't upgraded yet) and this gives them 6 months to get those swapped out.

Am I correct in this summary?

[TyroneShoes]

...DISH wanted people to believe their MPEG2 channels were really MPEG4...
Who did what? :confused:
...the reason people point to the wiggle room theory being silly is little bandwidth will be gained. Well does directv need more then a little bandwidth on their KU birds at this time? Is there a big pile of SD content to get added shortly that they need more than a little room? Why now anyway- is there any reason they need the Ku room now? I guessed above for SD MLB IE- is that the likley culprit? Or maybe they are adding more Ku locals? (hmmm- does their lease on the canuck satellite at 72 end soon?)
If MPEG4 uses 70% of the bandwidth, all they have to do is migrate 3% of the rest of the channels to new sats, and they could consolidate all remaining existing Ku channels (as MPEG4) into two existing sats. Two sats is cheaper than three to operate, and one of them (not sure which) is past its expected life-span already and may soon begin to wobble.

Even if they can't do quite that, they could lease out space no longer being used.

[incog-neato]

Another Confirming Message:

You will have more time to upgrade your Los Angeles Properties to either MFH2™ or MFH3™. The existing Los Angeles Local HD channels will remain on the Ku frequency at a different channel location; however, they will be transmitted in MPEG4 from April 1, 2008 through August 31, 2008 (dates may adjust slightly). This means that if a customer receiving LA Local HD channels today has an MPEG4 HD receiver they will not have the potential to lose their Los Angles Local HD channels until September 1, 2008. The MPEG4 LA Channels will be available between 4/1/08 and 8/31/08 on FOXW HD 399, CBSW HD 391, NBCW HD 393 AND ABCW HD 397.

What You Should Do

Los Angeles HD customers and HD customers that are receiving the Los Angeles Local HD Distant Network signal that live in properties that will not be upgraded by March 31, 2008, should be upgraded with at least an MPEG4 HD or HD DVR receiver to ensure that they will not lose their LA Local HD channels.
Continue to upgrade your properties to one of the new MFH technologies. We realize that there is an inventory shortage on varying components, but we are working aggressively to improve this.
Since the Los Angeles Local HD channels will only be available via MPEG4 receivers and MFH2™ or MFH3™ beginning September 1, 2008, we will continue to work with you to ensure that you can successfully make the transition.


Transation: Anyone receiving HDLocals in LA or via DNS must upgrade their RECEIVER to MPEG4 compatible by 3/31 but don't need a 5LNB dish until 8/31.

I am only the messenger. If this turns out to be incorrect DirecTV has made a major blunder in their communications to system operators representing hundreds of thousands of customers which is why I believe it is accurate but take no resposibility for the final outcome.

[Wirelezz]

Thanks for the update! As per <THIS POST> (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=383317) I'll more than likely be one of those putting this to the test.

Still waiting for Earl's contacts to weigh in on this... Earl?

[ebonovic]

Still waiting for Earl's contacts to weigh in on this... Earl?

Still working on getting an answer...
As no one else (that I talk to), at DirecTV... has seen any of these memo's other then the letter that was mailed out to customers.

And I have talked to a few MDU installers, and system operators... and they also have not seen anything of this nature...
And are continuing to install the MFH-2/3 systems as fast as they can.

[incog-neato]

You would need to speak to the right division.Still working on getting an answer...
As no one else (that I talk to), at DirecTV... has seen any of these memo's other then the letter that was mailed out to customers.

And I have talked to a few MDU installers, and system operators... and they also have not seen anything of this nature...
And are continuing to install the MFH-2/3 systems as fast as they can.

[funinthesun]

I cant understand all the terms being used regarding this notice.

For HR10-250 units that are in calif, oregon, washing state, etc will they still get:

OTA HD locals channels?

still get any HD channels such as the 7 or so that are left in the 70-79 slots?

what does LA stand for, los angeles? if so then what areas will still get the MPEG2 HD channels then or is LA the last area to still get them?

[bigpuma]

I cant understand all the terms being used regarding this notice.

For HR10-250 units that are in calif, oregon, washing state, etc will they still get:

OTA HD locals channels?

Yes.

still get any HD channels such as the 7 or so that are left in the 70-79 slots?

Yes, for now.

what does LA stand for, los angeles? if so then what areas will still get the MPEG2 HD channels then or is LA the last area to still get them?

Yes, It is for the Mpeg-2 Los Angeles local channels that have been available via satelite for a long time now. Only LA and New York locals have been available nationally via satelite in Mpeg-2 format. Now the LA locals will only be available in Mpeg-4 format. Eventually NY will follow and eventually all other national HD channels.

[ebonovic]

You would need to speak to the right division.

Oh trust me... I am talking to the right people...
And if they don't know about it.... then something "odd" is going on.

One hand not talking to the other hand.

[funinthesun]

So it is only the local channels provided through the sat that are being dropped March 1st or so and NOT the HD channels in the 70-79 slots?

If so when are the 70-79 HD channels being dropped and why havnt they already done it?

[ebonovic]

So it is only the local channels provided through the sat that are being dropped March 1st or so and NOT the HD channels in the 70-79 slots?

If so when are the 70-79 HD channels being dropped and why havnt they already done it?

Correct...

As for when... When more of the systems have been converted to MPEG-4.

According to the meeting yesterday, I believe it was stated that there are bout 500k non-mpeg4 systems that have not been upgraded.

[incog-neato]

Check your pmOh trust me... I am talking to the right people...
And if they don't know about it.... then something "odd" is going on.

One hand not talking to the other hand.

[MichaelK]

Who did what? :confused:

.

when dish started "MPEG4" encoding. they apparently sent mpeg2 for a time but only permitted MPEG4 capable boxes of seeing it.

[ebonovic]

Check your pm

Nothing in my PM box.

[incog-neato]

Nothing in my PM box.


There should now be a message but there is no attachment option in PM so I can't send you what I wanted to.

[ebonovic]

I have been able confirm exactly what incog-neato has posted, with another party.

LA-DNS will be moving to MPEG-4.
It will begin broadcasting on one of the 3LNB compatible SAT's and Signals.

It will remain that way until the fall, however the exact date is subject to change.
This is in fact being done to help with the MDU upgrades, and start pushing the issue of the MPEG-4 transistions.

I have NOT been able to confirm incog-neato's other post, about all other MPEG-4 conversions will not occur in 2008.

Kudo's to incog-neato.

[smak]

So if I want to totally divorce myself from D* HD Channels, but still use the HR10-250 for OTA networks and regular SD D* Channels can I?

I can use the HR10 without having an HD plan right?

-smak-

[incog-neato]

No ... unless you are already grandfathered in without the HD package before they changed their rules. As of last year, all HD compatible receivers require the HD package on the account.
I can use the HR10 without having an HD plan right?

-smak-

[incog-neato]

It came from the same source (dated 2/1) the Ku MPEG4 info came from - check your email.I have NOT been able to confirm incog-neato's other post, about all other MPEG-4 conversions will not occur in 2008.

Kudo's to incog-neato.

[NytOwl666]

500K that haven't converted from MPEG2 to MPEG4? Has to be TiVos (us)!?

Wonder across how many customers. If there were 500K customers, that's about $5M per month (average $100/month/customer). That's $60M per year and they're messing with us versus just going back to TiVo to either buy them or make us less "un-happy."

It costs them $ for each call to customer service too. If all of those customers call, that begins to add up quick too.

Now, let's guess that that's just 500K boxes left. To send out all new boxes to those folks at a discount adds up quick too.

And to do what? Irritate long time loyal customers they already have and make them rethink why they need DIRECTV anymore. Smart business move. Lose several bucks on each one and make it up in volume - call center costs, IVR costs, box swap costs, shipping/home service swap costs, and add to that calls after the upgrade because the boxes still don't work right or the users need help figuring out where things are now, and then there's the customer ill will.

And from what I've heard, the cost of the DIRECTV box is more than the TiVo, so where do they save the SAC costs and reduce monthly cost per customer? No wonder they need a 2 year contract - I bet that doesn't even cover their costs!!

I'm sure several folks will get promoted for this stroke of genius.

[funinthesun]

It costs them $ for each call to customer service too. If all of those customers call, that begins to add up quick too.

It costs them nothing extra - in their eye at least. All they do is hire really dumb monkeys for a very low wage and give them a headset and terminal to try and look things up to say to customers. You guys do know that is how it is right?

They go home and brag to their family they are part of an elite customer service team that handles thousands of calls and they get a headset and terminal (which they have to split between 2 other shifts of people lol)..

That is why everyone gets different answers. CSR's are very low scale individuals with no idea of quality. Whatever they pull out of their arse at the moment they say and hope you are dumb enough to believe it.

If one out of 500 shows initiative they ‘Peter Principle’ them into Advanced Support and then we are still left with 499 really dumb monkeys again and a Job Posting with a picture of bananas to lure them in...

Craigslist: “JOB OFFERED: Must be able to answer phone, search database and lie at the same time. Free HD service, a $10 per month value!, with your paid 2 year service contract. If you are not willing to lie then you must be able to make something up and argue it through until the customer hangs up in exhaustion. $5.75 Per Hour! :eek:”

Looking at it this way I myself would be more then eager and willing to pay a $20 fee per hour just to talk to someone that actually knew what the heck they were talking about. Now wouldn’t THAT be a money making scheme that all of us would readily pay for!

Any dumb monkies out there working for D* wanna reply? I can't wait to see this. :D

[NytOwl666]

Ouch.

Odd as this may be coming from me, but that was pretty unfair and unkind. Imagine for a moment you had to take calls all day from folks that seldom call because they are having a good day or are just calling to say they're happy with the service.

Imagine having to support decisions they did not make and take the heat for the folks who really make the decisions with very little ability to influence or even provide feedback.

Imagine too for a moment that, as in the case of many of DIRECTV's call centers (and home service folks), you don't actually work for DIRECTV but a company that has had DTV's functions outsourced at a cost per call and minute.

So, in actuality, it does cost DIRECTV real money for each call into the IVR and even more when you talk to a person. It also costs real money to roll a truck.

While we may not always get consistent service, don't condemn the folks at the lowest and hardest working tier. Detest and berate poor decisions of the management team and the impact the company has on its customers - us.

Peace

[funinthesun]

ROFLMALO

That's funny. When I worked minimum wage I always took pride in my work, gave excellent customers service and knew the answers that were asked of me and did an excellent job.

The main point has nothing to do with upper monkey management, however they are also to blame for allowing it to happen.

Just because you took a job for a little bit of money doesnt excuse you from doing your very best at making sure you dont mislead, lie or make something up just to get done with the phone call. I always went out of my way to satisfy the customer and make sure they were taken care of. Take care of the customer and the business simply takes care of itself withotu so many 10s of thousands of pissed off customers. Wow, that is really bad. D* is so pathetic when it comes to customer service and business smarts. Hmmm, but then again some people become sucessful, and well some dont. It all starts from the beginning. If you screw that simple job up then how can you expect to move on?

I have 17 recordings I think I might download here showing exactly, over and over, what we all know - monkey mania! man what a great laugh that would be. :D

[HiDefGator]

500K that haven't converted from MPEG2 to MPEG4? Has to be TiVos (us)!?

Wonder across how many customers. If there were 500K customers, that's about $5M per month (average $100/month/customer). That's $60M per year and they're messing with us versus just going back to TiVo to either buy them or make us less "un-happy."

It costs them $ for each call to customer service too. If all of those customers call, that begins to add up quick too.

Now, let's guess that that's just 500K boxes left. To send out all new boxes to those folks at a discount adds up quick too.

And to do what? Irritate long time loyal customers they already have and make them rethink why they need DIRECTV anymore. Smart business move. Lose several bucks on each one and make it up in volume - call center costs, IVR costs, box swap costs, shipping/home service swap costs, and add to that calls after the upgrade because the boxes still don't work right or the users need help figuring out where things are now, and then there's the customer ill will.

And from what I've heard, the cost of the DIRECTV box is more than the TiVo, so where do they save the SAC costs and reduce monthly cost per customer? No wonder they need a 2 year contract - I bet that doesn't even cover their costs!!

I'm sure several folks will get promoted for this stroke of genius.

There were never 500k HD DTivo's sold. The vast majority (98%+) of DTivo's still active are SD only units that should keep working as is for some time to come.

[MichaelK]

not to drift too far off, but that 500k number is pretty amazing to me.

I would have guessed that with MPEG4 locals availible to more than half the population now and the addition of piles of other MPEG4 national channels that many would have converted.

Also in general their churn would mean piles of those people would leave for the 99 dollar cable deals.

I thought the peak amount of MPEG2 HD subs was at like 600,000 but it must have been a bunch higher then there.

[shibby191]

Yes, I think it will well north of 1 million HD MPEG2 subs. I believe just before the launch of MPEG4 there were 1.5 million. So in the past year and a half they have already converted 1 million. I'd say that's a pretty good number. Now they can really ramp up the conversions and get the rest at least offered a conversion (you can refuse of course) over the next year. You see that already with all the upgrade offers for Nascar Hotpass HD and MLB EI HD (both of which are MPEG4 only this year) and also the LA DNS. You can bet in early Summer the big daddy of them all, Sunday Ticket HD, will have subs with free upgrades. By end of the year you won't have many of those 500K left that haven't at least been offered an upgrade.

Remember, they have had HD for 8+ years now. I first got HD from DirecTV over 5 years ago with an old Hughes E-86. There were a lot of those old Hughes and Sony HD boxes out there. At it's peak there were only around 250K HD DirecTivo's (HR10-250) and latest word is there are less then 100K left active and many of those people actually do have at least one MPEG4 box already. So while there may be 500K MPEG2 subs left to convert, less then 1/5th would be HR10-250 users.

[bigpuma]

At it's peak there were only around 250K HD DirecTivo's (HR10-250) and latest word is there are less then 100K left active and many of those people actually do have at least one MPEG4 box already. So while there may be 500K MPEG2 subs left to convert, less then 1/5th would be HR10-250 users.

I still have my HR10 along with my HR20 and HR21 but my HR10 is only used for SD in the office. I only kept it because of the larger HD. I wonder how many other HR10s are used in this way.

[TonyD79]

Don't get your panties in a bunch over the 500K number. Earl said non-MPEG4 units. That would include older HD devices that are non-Tivo. Plus, it is not 500K households. There are a lot of folks who are running HR10's side by side with HR2x's. I was for about a year but turned off my HR10 because of limited wiring (it is not SWM compatible and I couldn't run enough wires easily).

BTW, Tivo is still in the house as I have an HD Tivo for my cable connection.

[MichaelK]

my shorts aren't twisted at all- I just thought their natural box churn was much quicker than that. I can't recall the exact numbers but i remember being amazed how quickly they got a beachhead with their new interactive boxes. The first one's were just SD which I'm sure churn quickly but if I recall they got like a third of their households with a least one interactive box in like a year or something like that. My thought at the time was that it was much quicker then just new sub adds so the number indicated to me that they just go through a lot of boxes even for existing subs.

[JohnTivo]

I still have my HR10 along with my HR20 and HR21 but my HR10 is only used for SD in the office. I only kept it because of the larger HD. I wonder how many other HR10s are used in this way.

I plan on keeping my HR10 running after my switch... I would have waited longer if not for losing my HD mpeg 2 locals at the end of the month.

[funinthesun]

I called D* and they said there are no plans to stop the current MPEG2 HD channels 70-79. Spoke to 3 different reps over the last few days.

Anybody have any different information?

Are they desparate for space those channels are taking up for anything?

Possibly keep them since they have their relationship with TiVo through 2010 I would imagine?

[MichaelK]

they probably said the same thing about the LA networks a few days before the first post in this thread.

the front line CSR's know nothing typically.

That said there are plenty here that know stuff- a couple with inside information posted in this thread and so far the only mentioned cut offs are LA going MPEG4 on the old birds shortly and then moving from the old birds to new at the end of the summer. So It would sound like they dont plan on fiddling with any other old stuff untill at least the end of the summer when this change is complete. Maybe at some point after that they go the next step...

[ebonovic]

I called D* and they said there are no plans to stop the current MPEG2 HD channels 70-79. Spoke to 3 different reps over the last few days.

Anybody have any different information?

Are they desparate for space those channels are taking up for anything?

Possibly keep them since they have their relationship with TiVo through 2010 I would imagine?

Yes, there are plenty of plans to stop the MPEG-2 HD.
All HD will be MPEG-4. They just haven't set a hard dates yet.

And yes, they do need to reclaim that space on the 101/110/119 sats.
They have long been pretty much maxed out, or at a very high level of usage of the capacity on those three sats.

The relationship with TiVo, is not required to keep the MPEG-2 HD.
There are sub 100k HR10-250's left active out their right now...

[MichaelK]

...

And yes, they do need to reclaim that space on the 101/110/119 sats.
They have long been pretty much maxed out, or at a very high level of usage of the capacity on those three sats.
...


hey earl-

curious- do you know- besides getting wiggle room do they have plans to make major changes to the Ku stuff? Or are they just basically trying to keep SD on Ku running along smoothly with an occasional tweak to add a channel here or there?

I left Directv a while ago for the S3 but I do like to try and keep up so I know what my options are. last i really was carefully watching it seemed like all the big changes and new stuff are going Ka? Anything change?

[ebonovic]

hey earl-

curious- do you know- besides getting wiggle room do they have plans to make major changes to the Ku stuff? Or are they just basically trying to keep SD on Ku running along smoothly with an occasional tweak to add a channel here or there?

I left Directv a while ago for the S3 but I do like to try and keep up so I know what my options are. last i really was carefully watching it seemed like all the big changes and new stuff are going Ka? Anything change?

I have not seen or heard of any major plans to change around the SD lineup...

Ka is where all the new HD channels are going, and new DMA's for locals (both SD and HD)

[mattnboise]

I understand your reason that you explained...

But as posted... it doesn't make much sense.

What is DirecTV gaining by putting a duplicate MPEG-4 encoded stream on the Ku band?

There is a savings in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 from a bandwith point of view... but I just can't see it being that big, for a 6 month period... to make it worth it.

You are then ticking off your non-mdu customers, while you could avoid that issue and convert more of them for 6 more months, until you are ready to completely turn it off. And ticking off the mdu customers, that haven't completed even the MPEG-4 receiver upgrades...

Did you get the Memo... Maybe your callcenter doesn't have the Memo yet...
You might need another copy of the Memo...
Just because you are a Directv CSR doesn't mean you know everything...

...
... ... ...
... ... ...

[ebonovic]

Did you get the Memo... Maybe your callcenter doesn't have the Memo yet...
You might need another copy of the Memo...
Just because you are a Directv CSR doesn't mean you know everything...

...
... ... ...
... ... ...

1) Thank you for the attack:
2) I already gave credit to ingco-neato that he was correct.
3) I am not a DirecTV CSR

But thank you for playing the game.

[stevmead]

1) Thank you for the attack:
2) I already gave credit to ingco-neato that he was correct.
3) I am not a DirecTV CSR

But thank you for playing the game.

Just wondering...How many times a day do you ask yourself, why do I even bother?

[TyroneShoes]

...as posted... it doesn't make much sense.

What is DirecTV gaining by putting a duplicate MPEG-4 encoded stream on the Ku band?

There is a savings in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 from a bandwith point of view... but I just can't see it being that big, for a 6 month period... to make it worth it.

You are then ticking off your non-mdu customers, while you could avoid that issue and convert more of them for 6 more months, until you are ready to completely turn it off. And ticking off the mdu customers, that haven't completed even the MPEG-4 receiver upgrades...I think it does make sense. If you want to convert subscribers to a system that typically would mean that they would have to jump over two hurdles to get completely there, why not ask them to jump over just one hurdle at a time, especially if the other is beyond their control?

Having the option to move channels gradually to M4 in place without moving them to Ka dishes makes some folks able to jump over the first hurdle (using an M4 receiver/PVR) while waiting for the mdu folks (or the single-dwelling installers, who are under a lot of pressure) to get them over the second hurdle (connected to a new dish). It also allows, as you move small groups of channels, the positives of converting to slowly begin to outweigh the negatives, so that folks can come to the conclusion that converting is the best choice gradually, and somewhat on their own terms (or at least while still harboring the illusion of it being on their own terms).

The problem is that at some point they need to change every single subscriber's behavior and pry them away from the lethargic inertia that keeps them clinging to the old equipment. You can't do that abruptly or capriciously without losing subs and creating a PR uproar.

If you can do this primarily with the carrot (the promise of more new channels) rather than with the stick (losing the channels you have) then you piss off less subs. You also want to only piss off a few at a time to keep the call centers from catching on fire.

Ironically, the wonderful Tivo platform that gained them subs will now turn out to bite them in the posterior. The fact that Tivo is so popular and the +DVR is so hated makes this conversion all that more difficult, but at some point DTV subs will have no choice but to jump on over if they are to remain DTV subs.


...And yes, they do need to reclaim that space on the 101/110/119 sats.
They have long been pretty much maxed out, or at a very high level of usage of the capacity on those three sats...The fact that they are maxed out means very little. There was never any serious hand-wringing in the corporate offices regarding the fact that PQ was compromised for the last six years (since must-carry), so why worry at all about that now?

If they "need to reclaim that space", what exactly do they need to reclaim it for? More SD that they will have to move eventually anyway? That's somewhat antithetical towards the strategy of making HD (and subscribers converting to the new equipment) attractive while making SD (and them staying put) less attractive. All HD is heading to M4 and is probably marked for Ka also. If there is an urgency, it is because they either need to add something (doubtful), increase existing SD PQ (doubtful AND pointless), or get off of them. If there is a reason, which is it?

Unless they want to rent out or stop paying for the space, I see no practical reason for moving M2 off, other than possibly converting to M4/Ku, which has some temporary benefit in its ability to gradually drive subs to the +DVR and away from DirecTivos.

[ebonovic]

I think it does make sense. If you want to convert subscribers to a system that typically would mean that they would have to jump over two hurdles to get completely there, why not ask them to jump over just one hurdle at a time, especially if the other is beyond their control?.....

The fact that they are maxed out means very little. There was never any serious hand-wringing in the corporate offices regarding the fact that PQ was compromised for the last six years (since must-carry), so why worry at all about that now?


At the time that statement was made, about it not making sense....
All the facts were not known.

We have now since learned, that there will only be 1 set of LA feeds in the SAT stream... not 3 as we were originally thinking.
That is the part that didn't make sense...

Why yank the MPEG-2, when you were not going to gain tha tmuch bandwith... still have the MPEG-4 conus, and MPEG-4 spotbeam.

We have since learned that there is just going to be one set of the signal for the common channels...


And actually there has been some hand-ringing for the compression levels... but it has been case of push it as much as you can until there are MAJOR issues... As shown with the temporary removal of channels during Sunday Ticket.

Whey they need to clear space on the 101/110/119 is there are a whole lot of locals that have to move to a different SAT slot... and to minimize their impact to those markets, some are going to go to those slots... at least temporarily.

There are also cases where they want to add more SD channels, or basically channels to their entire subscriber base... not just those that have gone to the 5LNB... so there is a need. And as you pointed out about the compression... they know some of the channels are majorily compressed, and is a source of complaints not just from customers, but also from the content providers.... and do need to address it...

[MichaelK]

edit- earl beat me to it- i got interupted while typing at work- darn work!- LOL)

One thing I thought (and maybe even posted above)- doesn’t their leaseback on the 72.5 sat end soon? If so they need to move those sd locals someplace. 4 MP2 HD slots gets you how many SD locals? Is it enough (or a good portion) of the 72.5 local channels? ( a quick google search comes back with a list from 8/2007 that says 28 DMA’s are on 72.5 ranked from 76 to 139 so maybe 75-100 SD locals?)

Although maybe earls comment above about new sd markets being ka- means the 72.5 are going ka when they have to move?

I guess it depends- how many people do you piss off (and need to spend for equipment and installs) by moving La HD locals off as compared to the number of people in those tertiary markets that get locals from 72.5? Probably you also need to factor in that the HD people need to be ka mp4 eventually anyway and that you’ve already inconvenienced the 72.5 people once with the funky multiswitch, extra dish, and potentially a box replacement. So maybe it’s just easier to move 72.5 mp2 locals to the ‘core’ ku slots and then those people wont even notice the change.

There’s other places on the way that say the 72.5 lease ends in 2008. Perhaps it ends shortly after the la mp4’s are to be moved from ku to ka?

[ebonovic]

There’s other places on the way that say the 72.5 lease ends in 2008. Perhaps it ends shortly after the la mp4’s are to be moved from ku to ka?

I believe it has been extended, but that extension was only to give more time to move them... so it is not cirticall that they have to be switched "tomorrow" but it does have to be sooner then later.

[incog-neato]

There are no CURRENT plans. The word I got is they will be around through 2008 and after that anything is possible. They will go. Just a matter of when. But I'd feel safe at least through this year. I called D* and they said there are no plans to stop the current MPEG2 HD channels 70-79. Spoke to 3 different reps over the last few days.

Anybody have any different information?

Are they desparate for space those channels are taking up for anything?

Possibly keep them since they have their relationship with TiVo through 2010 I would imagine?

[incog-neato]

Effective today, 3/31/08 the Los Angeles Local High-Definition channels – ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89 - are migrating to a new format which will require one of the new high-definition M-PEG4 receivers.

The channel migration will begin at 2 am PT on Monday 3/31, causing these channels to be down intermittently throughout the day on 3/31 before re-appearing in the M-PEG4 format at 3 am PT on Tuesday, 4/1. Customers may experience these outages on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89, the standard definition channels for those networks will still be available throughout the migration.

We do not anticipate any other interruptions during this transition and will notify you immediately if this schedule changes. Engineering has not reported that receiver re-hits or resets will be necessary during or following this transition.

[JohnDG]

Effective today, 3/31/08 the Los Angeles Local High-Definition channels – ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89 - are migrating to a new format which will require one of the new high-definition M-PEG4 receivers.

The channel migration will begin at 2 am PT on Monday 3/31, causing these channels to be down intermittently throughout the day on 3/31 before re-appearing in the M-PEG4 format at 3 am PT on Tuesday, 4/1. Customers may experience these outages on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89, the standard definition channels for those networks will still be available throughout the migration.

We do not anticipate any other interruptions during this transition and will notify you immediately if this schedule changes. Engineering has not reported that receiver re-hits or resets will be necessary during or following this transition.

Does this mean DTV is going to map 391-399 to 81-89? This would be nice, as I have a number of SLs pointing to the 80's for series that were on hiatus for the writer's strike.

jdg

[Wirelezz]

OK, as I stated earlier, I would be one of those to test out whether the HR20 connected to a 3 LNB dish would work with the new MPEG4 channel lineup from the west coast. Here's my status as of 8:30 AM MDT:

All west coast Network DNS feeds have gone dark (CH's 81; 83; 87 & 89).

Also the new MPEG4 CH's 391; 393; 397; 399 are also dark on my HR20-700. I'm receiving the "Channel Not Available" message, so for now I am SOL! :mad:

At this time the prediction of the MPEG4 signals being simulcast on the Ku band has not come true.

So incog-neato, are you saying the new MPEG4 channel line up will come online on the Ku band at 3 AM PT on Tuesday, 4/1?

I Ass-u-me'd this transition would have been seamless!

[hiker]

MPEG4 CH's 391; 393; 397; 399 working fine for me on HR20 and have been for many weeks now. Call D* if you are not receiving.

[Wirelezz]

MPEG4 CH's 391; 393; 397; 399 working fine for me on HR20 and have been for many weeks now. Call D* if you are not receiving.

Hiker, are you connected to a 3LNB dish???

[hiker]

I have Slimline 5 LNB dish. I'm not sure if there's a way to look at signal meter on HR20 to see what TP and sat those channels are on? Whoever said you can get new MPEG4 CH's 391; 393; 397; 399 on 3 LNB dish/HR20 apparently is wrong for now.

[Wirelezz]

I have Slimline 5 LNB dish. Whoever said you can get new MPEG4 CH's 391; 393; 397; 399 on 3 LNB dish/HR20 apparently is wrong for now.

That would be incog-neato & Earl (ebonovic).

Would either of you guys care to weigh in on this?

[incog-neato]

The day is not over yet in California (or anywhere else for that matter).

It also states The channel migration will begin at 2 am PT on Monday 3/31, causing these channels to be down intermittently throughout the day on 3/31 before re-appearing in the MPEG4 format at 3 am PT on Tuesday, 4/1."

Aside from all that, I don't create the bulletins, or "say" anything, I just post here what DirecTV sends me.


That would be incog-neato & Earl (ebonovic).

Would either of you guys care to weigh in on this?

[jodyguercio]

Does this mean DTV is going to map 391-399 to 81-89? This would be nice, as I have a number of SLs pointing to the 80's for series that were on hiatus for the writer's strike.

jdg

Just change your SLs.

[Stephen M. Smith]

The day is not over yet in California (or anywhere else for that matter).

It also states The channel migration will begin at 2 am PT on Monday 3/31, causing these channels to be down intermittently throughout the day on 3/31 before re-appearing in the MPEG4 format at 3 am PT on Tuesday, 4/1."

Aside from all that, I don't create the bulletins, or "say" anything, I just post here what DirecTV sends me.

Can you confirm that Ka/Ku dish is required for MFH1 MDU's? Our Sysop insists it is not required and has made no change to our 3-lnb on roof. Channel 85 recently changed to say Ka/Ku required but Sysop insists that doesn't apply to MDU's. That confuses me -- why wouldn't it apply to MDU's?

Regardless, we have no sign of any 390's channels or 480/481 test channels around here in this LA MDU.

[incog-neato]

According to the bulletin(s) I received from DirecTV it will remain Ka/3LNB until 8/31/08 so buildings such as yours have more time to upgrade to MFH2. You must however have MPEG4 equipment as the SIGNAL is changing to MPEG4. If DirecTV changed their mind all hell will break loose at mdu properties all around the west and midwest including those with DNS as they were all told otherwise by the MDU division of DirecTV multiple times over the last 4 months.


Can you confirm that Ka/Ku dish is required for MFH1 MDU's? Our Sysop insists it is not required and has made no change to our 3-lnb on roof. Channel 85 recently changed to say Ka/Ku required but Sysop insists that doesn't apply to MDU's. That confuses me -- why wouldn't it apply to MDU's?

Regardless, we have no sign of any 390's channels or 480/481 test channels around here in this LA MDU.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Yep, that what I was told originally as well. I have an HR21 right now and I ain't seeing the new channels at all. Other people with Ka/Ku dishes have reported that they are there and they can see them.

Someone within D* told me today that they couldn't get MPEG4 to work w/the transponders on the Ka/3LNB sats, and now they've been moved to other sat which requires everyone, including MDU's, to have a Ka/Ku dish to get them. He said all MDU provider's have already been alerted to this, but that ain't the case w/mine -- they still say the channels will appear by 3am tonight... still waiting.

I'm confused as to whether this new Ka/Ku dish requirement, assuming it's true, also means MDU's will need the full MFH2 upgrade too? I hope not since we're not even scheduled for MFH2 until "sometime this summer". That's a long time to be w/o locals in HD.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Our 390's channels did indeed appear at 3am pst as your announcement said, so they are up somewhere on 101, 110 and/or 119 right now b/c we only got those 3 lnb's on our roof. Sorry for the confusion.

I swear though, *nobody* inside or out of D* knows what is going on here w/these LA HD DNS going up specifically just for me and other LA MDU's not yet upgraded to MFH2, except you and Earle.

[incog-neato]

:up: LOL :up: I'm glad to hear that or today would have been a HORRIBLE day to go to work! Our 390's channels did indeed appear at 3am pst as your announcement said, so they are up somewhere on 101, 110 and/or 119 right now b/c we only got those 3 lnb's on our roof. Sorry for the confusion.

I swear though, *nobody* inside or out of D* knows what is going on here w/these LA HD DNS going up specifically just for me and other LA MDU's not yet upgraded to MFH2, except you and Earle.

[incog-neato]

I need to verify .... anyone in LA AREA who still has an HR10-250 still able to get LA LOCALS on either the 80's channels OR the 390's channels??

[Wirelezz]

The channel migration will begin at 2 am PT on Monday 3/31, causing these channels to be down intermittently throughout the day on 3/31 before re-appearing in the M-PEG4 format at 3 am PT on Tuesday, 4/1.[

incog, your information was spot on! :up:

As advertised, beginning early this morning, all LA Network feeds are being received on my HR20 with the 3LNB dish. I for one would like to thank you for the information you provided in this thread, especially considering My Situation (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=383317). I can now install the slimline dish at a time of my own choosing. :)

.

I need to verify .... anyone in LA AREA who still has an HR10-250 still able to get LA LOCALS on either the 80's channels OR the 390's channels??

I still have an active HR10-250, but I would have to swap the Sat cables back from the HR20 to check on this. I'll look into this later today, but hopefully someone else will post their results on this before then.

[incog-neato]

Well, you have until 8/31/08 :) If you get a chance to check the HR10-250 I'd appreciate it.

I can now install the slimline dish at a time of my own choosing.

[hiker]

I need to verify .... anyone in LA AREA who still has an HR10-250 still able to get LA LOCALS on either the 80's channels OR the 390's channels??I'm not in LA area but it shouldn't matter since I am authorized for LA HD DNS and HR10 is not receiving 390's and 80's have the "Moved" message. HR20 is still receiving 390's with 5LNB dish and I assume they moved to one of the 101/110/119 sats but I don't think I can accurately determine which sat using the HR20.

[JohnDG]

Just change your SLs.

For those who have the same situation:

Unlike the TiVo, when you display a SL on the HR2x DVRs that do not have any eligible programming within the next 12 days, the SL does not display the channel to which it is tuned. So there is no way to know you need to change them until 1) eligible programming is in the guide and 2) one knows that the eligible programming is in the guide. That is, you've got to manually keep up with when the SL programming is slated to return. And one cannot add a HR2x Auto-Record Keyword Search when there is no eligible programming.

Now, for me, this is a minor nit as I duplicate the SLs on my remaining TiVos for backup recordings -- nothing like getting a famous HR21 blank recording of Lost to annoy the sig-other -- and can monitor the TiVo "to dos" for upcoming recordings. But, it may be more of pain for other folks.

jdg

[incog-neato]

Thanks ... I just wanted to confirm that they actually went over to MPEG4 and the HR10 would no longer receive them which seems to be the case. Actually they remain on Ku sats s they always were but switched to MPEG4.I'm not in LA area but it shouldn't matter since I am authorized for LA HD DNS and HR10 is not receiving 390's and 80's have the "Moved" message. HR20 is still receiving 390's with 5LNB dish and I assume they moved to one of the 101/110/119 sats but I don't think I can accurately determine which sat using the HR20.

[wblynch]

Los Angeles region. I lost the 80's channels yesterday and did not get any 390's. I didn't check this morning.

Canceled all our network Season Passes and reentered them on the digital OTA channels. The High Definition picture is far superior on the OTA channels than what we were getting from the satellite. This seems odd to me that a simple antenna is better than the satellite dish.

We might stay with D* to keep the SD "cable" channels. But I don't want to pay $10 for a HD tier that we have no access to.

[shibby191]

Los Angeles region. I lost the 80's channels yesterday and did not get any 390's. I didn't check this morning.

Canceled all our network Season Passes and reentered them on the digital OTA channels. The High Definition picture is far superior on the OTA channels than what we were getting from the satellite. This seems odd to me that a simple antenna is better than the satellite dish.

We might stay with D* to keep the SD "cable" channels. But I don't want to pay $10 for a HD tier that we have no access to.

As noted they were converted to MPEG4 (as all HD is being coverted) and you have to have an MPEG4 reciever to get them. You should have had a crawl on your screen for the past few months to call in for a free upgrade.

By the way, OTA is always superior to satellite because satellite, both Dish and DirecTV, take the signal from the OTA (fiber in some cases) and then encodes it for sending to you. So there is no way it can be better then OTA.

The old MPEG2 HD channels were pretty bad on quality compared to OTA. This is what you were getting before, the "HD Lite" MPEG2 channels. But the new MPEG4 HD on DirecTV in most markets is very, very good and you can barely tell the difference between MPEG4 and OTA in most markets. Check out AVS, Satguys and DBSTalk for talk about the quality and comparisons. For the vast majority of markets MPEG4 HD and OTA are pretty close. In my market I can only tell the difference on 1 local and it's actually better via MPEG4 since I have reception problems on that one local. On the others they are virtually the same quality.

This is one of the many reasons why DirecTV (and Dish too) are going to MPEG4. Even cable is looking at going to MPEG4. It's unfortunate that the HR10-250's aren't capable of MPEG4 but that's just the way it is. And it's why I refused to buy one for $1000 (or even $600 when the price dropped) because I knew it would be obsolete for HD soon enough.

[Stephen M. Smith]

I need to verify .... anyone in LA AREA who still has an HR10-250 still able to get LA LOCALS on either the 80's channels OR the 390's channels??

I still have my HR10-250 up and running, alongside my new HR21. MPEG2 80's channels are gone in HR10-250 just like HR21. HR10-250 does not see new MPEG4 390's channels, but HR21 does. So this is exactly what was supposed to happen -- LA area MDU residents still on MFH1 w/older MPEG2 receivers/dvr's will those receivers replaced w/newer MPEG4 ones to continue to receive their locals in HD.

[Stephen M. Smith]

We might stay with D* to keep the SD "cable" channels. But I don't want to pay $10 for a HD tier that we have no access to.

I had a big problem w/that too -- if you call D* up and say "wtf, I'm in a MFH MDU so only get MPEG2 HD and now you want me to pay $10/month to get back the 2 lamest MPEG2 HD channels?!?!", then will give you package for free. I forget how long (6 months), but it was way long enough to allow for our MFH2 upgrade.

[incog-neato]

Thanks, I appreciate the confirmation.I still have my HR10-250 up and running, alongside my new HR21. MPEG2 80's channels are gone in HR10-250 just like HR21. HR10-250 does not see new MPEG4 390's channels, but HR21 does. So this is exactly what was supposed to happen -- LA area MDU residents still on MFH1 w/older MPEG2 receivers/dvr's will those receivers replaced w/newer MPEG4 ones to continue to receive their locals in HD.

[Stephen M. Smith]

No problem. Sounds like you are an MDU provider in the LA area?

[sjberra]

Los Angeles region. I lost the 80's channels yesterday and did not get any 390's. I didn't check this morning.

Canceled all our network Season Passes and reentered them on the digital OTA channels. The High Definition picture is far superior on the OTA channels than what we were getting from the satellite. This seems odd to me that a simple antenna is better than the satellite dish.

We might stay with D* to keep the SD "cable" channels. But I don't want to pay $10 for a HD tier that we have no access to.

I seem to remember that if you have a HD reciever or DVR you are required to retain the HD package, in addition I believe the HD OTA in the dvr is not active unless you have a active HD subscription.

[incog-neato]

incog-neato sir :)No problem. Sounds like you are an MDU provider in the LA area?

[Stephen M. Smith]

incog-neato is a MDU provider? Or are do really make "pee-proof" furniture for little kids: http://www.incog-neato.com/ lol

[Wirelezz]

incog-neato is a MDU provider? Or are do really make "pee-proof" furniture for little kids: http://www.incog-neato.com/ lol
http://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/lunarbase9/jumping_happyfaces.gif

[incog-neato]

I'll have to get my trademark lawyers after them. That is funny!incog-neato is a MDU provider? Or are do really make "pee-proof" furniture for little kids: http://www.incog-neato.com/ lol

[Castaa]

What about the HD New York channels? Anyway to switch to them if they are still offered?

Yes, I lost my LA channels like everyone else.

Can I call D* and get a reduction in my bill because I lost service?

[shibby191]

What about the HD New York channels? Anyway to switch to them if they are still offered?

Yes, I lost my LA channels like everyone else.

Can I call D* and get a reduction in my bill because I lost service?

Why? They have been offering free upgrades for those with LA HD channels for weeks now. Did you not take advantage?

As for New York, no they legally cannot offer you those channels.

[ebonovic]

What about the HD New York channels? Anyway to switch to them if they are still offered?

Yes, I lost my LA channels like everyone else.

Can I call D* and get a reduction in my bill because I lost service?

No, you can not switch to NY.

And good luck with getting a reduction in your bill.

And NY is the next set of channels on the list to be move.

[Castaa]

No, you can not switch to NY.

And good luck with getting a reduction in your bill.

And NY is the next set of channels on the list to be move.

Thanks for the reply.

[Castaa]

Why? They have been offering free upgrades for those with LA HD channels for weeks now. Did you not take advantage?

Other HD deals with the HD LA channels with an HR10? Or a box upgrade?

[stevel]

Other HD deals with the HD LA channels with an HR10? Or a box upgrade?
Box (and dish) upgrade. The HR10 will never again be able to receive the LA HD channels (from the satellite).

[scooby_doo_53]

Anybody else notice that the NCAA Basketball games were on channel 81 on Saturday? The championship also shows up tonight on the Tivo guide data. After that, nothing, but I'm curious as to why DTV decided to show the games on a channel they "discontinued"?

[ebonovic]

Other HD deals with the HD LA channels with an HR10? Or a box upgrade?

For the last several months, they have been offering deals on converting to MPEG-4 compatible equipment.

Specifically for those with HD - LA DNS, LA Local channels; MLB; NASCAR....
Along with the initial deals they had going for the last year or so getting ready for these days, and when the MPEG-4 HD Channels were lauched.

There were initial deals for anyone with an HR10-250... but now the deals are specific to other factors (LA, Extended sports packages).

[MichaelK]

...

And NY is the next set of channels on the list to be move.

Earl-

I'm curious

any clues as to when that might be?

I am sure there is no official set in stone answer to be found. But I'm wondering if you get the feeling it's year end, next year, or 5 years away?

[Castaa]

For the last several months, they have been offering deals on converting to MPEG-4 compatible equipment.

Specifically for those with HD - LA DNS, LA Local channels; MLB; NASCAR....
Along with the initial deals they had going for the last year or so getting ready for these days, and when the MPEG-4 HD Channels were lauched.

There were initial deals for anyone with an HR10-250... but now the deals are specific to other factors (LA, Extended sports packages).

Ah got it, thanks.

[wblynch]

If I cancel HD on my HR10-250 can they prevent me from receiving HD OTA channels?

I am fine with keeping the SD channels and giving up the HD tier because we don't watch those anyway.

I see no reason to pay $10 a month for channels DirecTV is not providing.

[ebonovic]

Earl-

I'm curious

any clues as to when that might be?

I am sure there is no official set in stone answer to be found. But I'm wondering if you get the feeling it's year end, next year, or 5 years away?

Not sure if it will be year's end, for the actual "cut-off"...

But my educated guess, is that the MPEG-4 versions of all the remaining MPEG-2 HD stations, will be online by years end for their overlap period.

With cut-off's shortly after that...

Another indication is that a new DISH will be released, that will not see the 110 and 119 slots.. Slimline3... which will only see 99/101/103

[ebonovic]

If I cancel HD on my HR10-250 can they prevent me from receiving HD OTA channels?

I am fine with keeping the SD channels and giving up the HD tier because we don't watch those anyway.

I see no reason to pay $10 a month for channels DirecTV is not providing.

I do not believe on the TiVo series of software you currently have, that the HD Access controls if you can see OTA or not.

[shibby191]

Other HD deals with the HD LA channels with an HR10? Or a box upgrade?

For the past few weeks you should have seen a text crawl message on your HD locals giving you a number to call for a free upgrade to the new receiver.

[MichaelK]

Not sure if it will be year's end, for the actual "cut-off"...

But my educated guess, is that the MPEG-4 versions of all the remaining MPEG-2 HD stations, will be online by years end for their overlap period.

With cut-off's shortly after that...

Another indication is that a new DISH will be released, that will not see the 110 and 119 slots.. Slimline3... which will only see 99/101/103

thanks for the insight- dont have so much time lately to keep up with it all.

The Slimline3 going to have ku AND ka at 101? I'd guess that's the next move once you condense down to 99,101,103- add ka to 101...

[ebonovic]

thanks for the insight- dont have so much time lately to keep up with it all.

The Slimline3 going to have ku AND ka at 101? I'd guess that's the next move once you condense down to 99,101,103- add ka to 101...

I do not know of any plans to offer Ka at the 101 slot..
None of the other dishes at this point support Ka at the 101 slot... so I don't see that happening for a while, if ever.

[Wirelezz]

Earl, do you have any info or links to specs or photos of the new Slimeline 3?

[shibby191]

Earl, do you have any info or links to specs or photos of the new Slimeline 3?

www.dbstalk.com is the best place for DirecTV information and there is some info there on it. No pics last I saw though.

[MichaelK]

I do not know of any plans to offer Ka at the 101 slot..
None of the other dishes at this point support Ka at the 101 slot... so I don't see that happening for a while, if ever.


I know that nothing currently supports KA at 101.

I just figure that's the end game. Could be wrong of course. I'm not sure if they can add more sats and increase the capacity of the conus HD channels at 99 and 103. 150 hd IS HUGE now but it wont be forever. I was guessing that adding conus ka to 101 would give a nice fat increase.

My thought was the transition to the new mpeg4 and ka systems hasn't exactly been perfectly executed step by step in a striaght line- there's been some things that got out of order due to bad decisions or lack of technical ability (no mpeg4 dvr for a period of time, breaking the ability to stack OTA for a period before single wire was ready, etc) ,- so i just figured not adding ka to the 101 lnb was one of those things. But sounds like that's not really the deal at all- they dont feel like they need 101's ka ability.

[shibby191]

I know that nothing currently supports KA at 101.

I just figure that's the end game. Could be wrong of course. I'm not sure if they can add more sats and increase the capacity of the conus HD channels at 99 and 103. 150 hd IS HUGE now but it wont be forever. I was guessing that adding conus ka to 101 would give a nice fat increase.

My thought was the transition to the new mpeg4 and ka systems hasn't exactly been perfectly executed step by step in a striaght line- there's been some things that got out of order due to bad decisions or lack of technical ability (no mpeg4 dvr for a period of time, breaking the ability to stack OTA for a period before single wire was ready, etc) ,- so i just figured not adding ka to the 101 lnb was one of those things. But sounds like that's not really the deal at all- they dont feel like they need 101's ka ability.

It's not so much that but they have to have FCC licenses to broadcast in KA at 101 which they don't have. They have a few at 101 and they are using them for backhaul operations but at least right now they legally can't broadcast KA from 101, not much anyway.

By the way, KA is just the frequency. They can still broadcast HD on the KU sats just as they are today. In fact the LA HD locals are on KU on 101 and in MPEG4 no less.

By the way, they are already prepping D12 to launch next year to go up at 99 or 103 to increase capacity to 200 channels. So plans are in the works to keep the expansion going.

Basically going to just 99/101/103 for the majority of customers gets them to a smaller dish and eliminates line of sight issues with 110 and 119. All HD will be from the new "core". 110 and 119 will still be used but for SD locals and maybe international.

[MichaelK]

actually as I understand the situation Directv has direct to home licenses for ALL the ka at 99, 101, and 103. Might just be that you get a license and its yours to do whatever but the same license at 99 and 103 for ka exists at 101 to my knowledge.

the licenses apparently come with use it or lose it provisions. They had a use for 99 and 103 (originally spaceway internet). But for 101 they had no use or satellite. Shortly before the use it or lose it deadline- when directv-8 (I believe that's the last on to go to 101?) was getting built directv had the sat manufacturer slap in some ka transponders to an otherwise ku bird. Then they spoke to the FCC about using the ka at 101 for backhaul use instead and apparently that was good enough for the FCC not to lose it(could be because originally part of the ka spectrum was to be used between the different spaceway birds- might just be the fcc being nice and no one else complained or wanted those slots- there's still plenty of Ka if i recall- cablevision/rainbow/voom had like 4-5 Ka licenses that no one seems to have taken over.)

Anyway- I think they could use ka at 101 for direct to home anytime they wanted. It's a great ace in the hole for them.

Thanks for the info on D12- I was trying to figure if all the Tp's where maxed out with the 2 spaceways and 10+11 but apparently there is AT LEAST enough room at either wing (funny that 99 and 103 will be the wings) for another 50 channels. So they can at least get to 250 national HD channels without having to bother with 101 ka (if ever)

Has anyone tried to put together a transponder map of the ka's now that they have some decent use? If I recall KA holds a bit more RF then ku plus they own the whole slots, there's better modulation, and they are using MPEG4. So I wonder if there's even plenty more after D12 goes to one wing and another bird goes to the other.

if it looks like it's years and years away to need it then there's no point in beginning to add ka lnb's in that mix. But if it's on the roadmap for 2-3 years then maybe they would start adding now. No idea really how long till they could want to use it. Maybe even they figure they can reclaim all the KU at 101 with MPEG4, newer encoding way before they need to go down the ka route at 101. I do remember seeing something that all dvr's to be deployed will be mpeg4 ready maybe by year? And that all plain stb's will be mpeg4 the following year - so maybe they figure in 5-6 years they can be all mpeg4 anyway....

[ebonovic]

Earl, do you have any info or links to specs or photos of the new Slimeline 3?

There are no pictures available yet, nor a specific data sheet yet.

We have a discussion about the general information about the Slimline 3... over at DBSTalk in our CE forum