cascading 2 different types of multiswitches?

[rickmeoff]

my brother has 2 zinwell sam 6802 multiswitches cascaded at his house (hooked up to 2 hr10-250s and several hdvr2s), which works to a point, since these switches arent supposed to be cascaded.


he has 2 hr10-250s hooked up to the first switch in the chain, and they work perfectly.

the problem is that he added another hr10, and since there was no room/ports left in the first cascaded switch he had to hook it into the 2nd/downstream ms. anything hooked into that 2nd ms, cannot pickup the 110/119 sats (iirc), therefore he cant get any of the upper hd channels to come in (everything hd in the 70's).

so every channel works with the exception of those.

i have a cascadeable jvi trunkline ms that worked great, so i figure we'll throw that into the mix in place of one of the zinwell 6802's.

my question is: which switch should be the 1st in the stream so that both switches can see all sats? since the zinwell cant be cascaded, should we place it as the 2nd downstream switch.....or the first?

thanks!

[codespy]

This may or may not help you, at our campsite I have 2 zinwell sam 4802 multiswitches cascaded. Taking 4 lines into the first switch from the antenna.

To get the Hi Def channels on IRD's hooked up to the second switch, I had to take 3 lines off the first switch to the second switch. If you take only two, Hi Def will not work, at least in my case.

Hope this helps.

[JimSpence]

If you cascade two WB68s the second one has to have four connections from the first one. The better way to use 2 WB68s is to connect them in parallel using 4 high frequency splitters. Split the lines from the dish and then connect the two switches keeping the order the same.

BTW, I mentioned WB68s because they the the required switches to use with the 5LNB dish.

The 6802s are okay for the 3LNB,

[BigBearf]

If you cascade two WB68s the second one has to have four connections from the first one. The better way to use 2 WB68s is to connect them in parallel using 4 high frequency splitters. Split the lines from the dish and then connect the two switches keeping the order the same.


Jim,
I had difficulty cascading WB68 for any distance and had to use the powered WB616s at the front end of my array and then could only use the WB68s as the last multiswitches in the array.

I wonder if there is a distance limit or maybe I just messed up.

BigBearf

[JimSpence]

Distance can be a problem since the WB68 is an unpowered switch. It relies on power from the connected receivers.

[rickmeoff]

If you cascade two WB68s the second one has to have four connections from the first one. The better way to use 2 WB68s is to connect them in parallel using 4 high frequency splitters. Split the lines from the dish and then connect the two switches keeping the order the same.

BTW, I mentioned WB68s because they the the required switches to use with the 5LNB dish.

The 6802s are okay for the 3LNB,

well these are 6802's and its a 3lnb.

and they arent okay........as i mentioned above, only units connected to the *1st* of the 2 cascaded switches will see the 110/119 sats. an hr10-250 connected to the 2nd switch will get all channels, except the hd channels in the 70's (uhd, tnthd, espnhd, hbohd, shohd, etc).

all 4 wires from the dish go into ms #1, and then 4 of the available 8 out of that switch go into ms #2, so its hooked up correctly.

ive been told (on this forum) that this is a known problem with these particular switches when cascaded. so i want to throw a cascadeable switch into the mix in place of one of the 6802's, and i dont know whether or not it should be the 1st in line......or the 2nd in line.

anybody know the answer?

[JimSpence]

It could be that one of the 6802s is having a problem. Try swapping them to see what happens. If it still doesn't work, then I'd try using the high freq splitters solution I mentioned above.

[rickmeoff]

jim,

from what ive read the problem we're having with the 2nd cascaded 6802 isnt abnormal: theyre not cascadeable in that, the 2nd switch wont pickup 110/119, thus no hd channels.

so i dont think swapping them will make a difference.

i guess we'll go trial and error with the 5x8 jvi trunkline, trying that as the first switch cascaded into the 6802. if that doesnt work, ill try the 6802 1st, cascaded into the jvi.

[JimSpence]

Here's a thought. You are connecting the second one using the correct four inputs, right?

Are you thinking of upgrading to the 5LNB dish? Then of course you'll need to use WB68 switches or get the WB616 one.

[rickmeoff]

when you say 'using the correct 4 inputs' how do you mean? 4 wires into ms #1, and then of the 8 outputs hes got 1-4 of those going into ms#2 inputs.

my brother isnt planning on upgrading to the 5lnb anytime soon, hes toyed with my hr20 and wants to stick with his hr10s as long as possible. he just wants his 3rd hr10 to receive these upper channels, and until he hooked it up to the zinwell, didnt even realize that the 2nd ms wasnt receiving 110/119.

thanks for your help.........

[rickmeoff]

which 'high frequency splitter' should i get........1 port passive, or all port passive?



http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=Splitters

'pro satellite supply' has a '1 port passive eagle aspen p 2150' for only $2.99......will that suffice?

http://www.prosatellitesupply.com/SATELLITE_DIPLEXERS_and_SPLITTERS.htm

thanks.

[Paperboy2003]

What is the typical 5x8 MS that D* installs? I have whatever they put up there and I need to cascade another MS. Is it a fairly simple procedure? How do I set it up? Do I need to split each of my inputs into each of the MS's?

Thanks,
D

[JimSpence]

There are several different 5x8 switches that DirecTV may use. Many are powered, so they are cascadable if their inputs are labeled 13v/0khz, 18v/0khz, 13v/22khz, and 18v/22khz. Just use four outputs from one to feed the four inputs on the second. This will get you a total of 12 working lines for receivers. If you need more than 12, then splitting the dish outputs to feed two switches is the way to go. Remember one thing, this arrangement won't work with the 5LNB dish if you need the MPEG4 channels.

[Budget_HT]

my brother has 2 zinwell sam 6802 multiswitches cascaded at his house (hooked up to 2 hr10-250s and several hdvr2s), which works to a point, since these switches arent supposed to be cascaded.


he has 2 hr10-250s hooked up to the first switch in the chain, and they work perfectly.

the problem is that he added another hr10, and since there was no room/ports left in the first cascaded switch he had to hook it into the 2nd/downstream ms. anything hooked into that 2nd ms, cannot pickup the 110/119 sats (iirc), therefore he cant get any of the upper hd channels to come in (everything hd in the 70's).

so every channel works with the exception of those.

i have a cascadeable jvi trunkline ms that worked great, so i figure we'll throw that into the mix in place of one of the zinwell 6802's.

my question is: which switch should be the 1st in the stream so that both switches can see all sats? since the zinwell cant be cascaded, should we place it as the 2nd downstream switch.....or the first?

thanks!

As I understand it, the difference between cascadeable and non is that the cascadeable unit places full-time tones on two of its input ports that forces the upstream multiswitch (between the cascadeable and the dish) to hold up the 110/119 signals on those two ports with the tones. This enables all eight outputs of the cascadeable multiswitch to access all available satellites/signals.

If true, then you would need to use your cascadeable MS as second in line, being fed by the non-cascadeable.

There are also tone injector units available to essentially enable a non-cascadeable MS to work. The injectors supply the tones that a cascadeable MS has built in.

Let us know what finally works for you.

[rickmeoff]

As I understand it, the difference between cascadeable and non is that the cascadeable unit places full-time tones on two of its input ports that forces the upstream multiswitch (between the cascadeable and the dish) to hold up the 110/119 signals on those two ports with the tones. This enables all eight outputs of the cascadeable multiswitch to access all available satellites/signals.

If true, then you would need to use your cascadeable MS as second in line, being fed by the non-cascadeable.

There are also tone injector units available to essentially enable a non-cascadeable MS to work. The injectors supply the tones that a cascadeable MS has built in.

Let us know what finally works for you.



thanks budget, i truly appreciate the response and we'll give it a try!

[rickmeoff]

the additional multiswitch is actually a terk bms 58.........is it okay to cascade a powered (terk) with an unpowered (zinwell) switch?

[codespy]

which 'high frequency splitter' should i get........1 port passive, or all port passive?

My installer from Premier Comm. used splitters from 'Perfect Vision', model # 23-102. Range from 9-2300 MHZ.

[rickmeoff]

codespy thanks. if my bro ever upgrades to the at9 dish, that sounds like the splitter he'll need if he goes with the wb68's.

we tried hooking up the powered terk 58 bms......2nd in line behind the zinwell, and it didnt work. funny, cuz after doing a search on the terk, i saw that it had worked for someone else exact same setup; zinwell/terk).

then, we changed the cabling around a little, making certain that the 4 lines coming out of ms#1, corresponded exactly to the 1-4 input ports on ms#2....and to no avail.

and then, just for the heck of it, we took jim spences advice and simply swapped the 2 ms's....making former switch #1 into #2, and #2 into the former #1 keeping the exact same cable configuration.

and it now works. ms#2 can now see the 110/119 sats.

THANK YOU JIM SPENCE!

[JimSpence]

I think it was a case of the cascading only working in one combination. The terk didn't cascade off the zinwell but the zinwell did off the terk.

Glad it's working now for you.

[rickmeoff]

actually, it was the zinwell/zinwell combo that ended up working.

perhaps if we put the terk 1st, zinwell 2nd it mightve worked, but we just tried it with the zinwell 1st in line with the terk 2nd in line ..........and then after it didnt work we gave up on he combo thinking we'll just order the hf splitters.

as we were hooking the zinwells back up, i remembered your suggestion and swapped their order, and its working perfectly.

we'll order the splitters just in case tho, lol.......as there must be a problem with one of the switches for it not to have been able to pass the tone upstream.

and we'll make sure to order hf splitters that will work with the at9 dish too, that way if he ever upgrades to an hr2x he'll only need the wb68s.

thanks again for the help.

[JimSpence]

Again, I'm glad it's working. I guess I got confused trying to see what was connected to what. :)

[rickmeoff]

Again, I'm glad it's working. I guess I got confused trying to see what was connected to what. :)

that makes 3 of us, lol.

:D

[rickmeoff]

update:

the hr10 hooked up to the #2 zinwell is now beginning to exhibit problems with hd channels 70-78. intermittant pixelization on those channels (all other channels are fine) is steadily getting worse.

for some reason the zinwell 6802 seems to have a problem with the 110/119 when cascaded.

in the meantime, ive gone ahead and ordered 4 of the 'skywalker signature series' hf splitters for $2.49 ea http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11670&d=1199724805

[rickmeoff]

ok, so ive hooked up 4 hf splitters. everything worked perfectly for a couple days, until yesterday. once again, on the same tv i had problems with before when i had the zinwells cascaded....the hd channels in the 70's wont come in.

then a little while later, they come in again....sometimes i get pixelization (i believe its called 'macro blocking?') for a few minutes, before all channels are back clear as day.


ive double checked and made certain that each cable is connected properly as per: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_5x16-PhaseIII.pdf

of all my cable runs, this is the shortest (about 1/4 of the longest run) and 3 other hdtvs work w/o a problem.

ive switched multiswitches, yet the problem stays with this tv.

anyone know the possible cause?

[JimSpence]

Make sure the splitters are connected exactly as shown in that PDF and that the splitters are power passing only on one leg. It is important that all power passing legs are connected to the same switch.

[rickmeoff]

checked and double checked.

any other possibilities?

[JimSpence]

Swap receivers?

[rickmeoff]

weve done that. we turned the set on at 4pm....all the channels were grey, with a 'looking for satellite in 2' blue banner. we left the tv on, and at 4:45 went back in the room, and all hd channels were working.

could it be something to do with one of the lnb's?

[rickmeoff]

okay, this is weird.

we've found out how to get the hd channels in on the tv we were having problems with:

there are 2 rooms adjacent to one another, each with hdtv's. one room has the intermittant problems with the hd channels in the 70's not coming in....the other does not.

when the room with the 'problem tv' cannot receive the hd channels, we've found that if we turn the hdtv on in the adjacent room and tune that tv to the hd channels....the 'problem room' hd signal magically appears!

each rooms cables are hooked up to a different 6x8 ms......one switch seems to work with all sats and hd channels.....the other does not. if i swap the ms, it stays with the switch!

why would one rooms tv not receive the hd signal unless the other rooms tv is tuned to those channels? im guessing it has something something to do with having a 'one port power pass' hf splitter being used with the 2 zinwell non powered switches?

should i have gotten no port powered splitters....or both port powered splitters?

[JimSpence]

Are the two receivers connected to separate switches? I suppose that with certain channel combinations, the receiver connected to the switch without the power pass could lose signal as there wouldn't be the correct signal from the LNBs available for it to use. Think of it this way, the LNBs are expecting their switching signals from the switch on the power passing leg. If the connected receivers aren't supplying the signal that the receiver on the other switch needs, you get nothing. In this case, power passing on both legs splitters should fix it. I believe the reasoning behind the one leg passing splitter is for use with powered multiswitches (the switch locks in the four switching combinations), so you don't have a potential shorting of the switching signals.

Is one of those switches you have a powered one? If so, then connect that one to the power pass aide of your splitters.

[rickmeoff]

yup, each of the receivers is hooked to a different ms. in fact, theres an older regular sd dtv receiver in another room hooked into the switch thats giving us problems.....and that too is 'searching for signal' but only on certain channels.

both switches are non powered zinwells, but we have a powered terk 58 bms sitting here that we can hook up which...from what youve explained....should take care of the problem.

so if we use the 'powered' terk with the 'non powered' zinwell along with these 'one-port powered' hf splitters .....i should hook up the zinwell to the 'dc power passing leg' of the splitter since its non powered, correct?

or do i have that backwards?

[JimSpence]

You need to connect the powered switch to the power passing leg of the splitters. This way you are ensured of locking the LNBs onto a particular switching combination.

[rickmeoff]

well, we hooked up the powered terk bms 58, and the zinwell 6802 using the hf splitters. everything that was hooked into the zinwell worked a-okay, while everything hooked up to the terk...although 101/110/119 came in perfectly.....had absolutely nothing.

we talked about the hookup for 10-15 minutes, and then as we were climbing back into the attic heard one of the tv's hooked to the terk start working (had the volume cranked up).

and then, just like that.....the other set hooked up to the terk started working too. it was like the hf splitter required some time for the receiver to send a signal back to it. now, everything from both ms's works just like its supposed to.

i dont know why there was that delay....but as long as everythings working properly im not gonna worry about it.

thank you jim, for all your help.