MY Tivos lie about recording capacity - a rant

[scandia101]

I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive I installed in my DT S2 before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings. That's fine, but it only gives me 261 hours of record time at basic (196GB / .75GB per hour). That's 16 hours (= to 12GB) less than the Tivo says I have. On my ST S2, I can use 141 of 164 GB which gives me 188 hours of record time which is 11 hours (= 8GB) less than what Tivo says I have. I think that Tivo keeping 23GB for it's own use is a bit ridiculous and that keeping 54Gb is insane, but it would bother me a whole lot less if Tivo reported capacity a bit more accurately.

Now I'm wondering what those numbers are on a stock drive.

Because someone would ask, my numbers come from TiVoPlayList

[brettatk]

Because someone would ask, my numbers come from TiVoPlayList


Maybe you could answer a quick question about TivoPlayList. I downloaded it the other night and when I entered in my Tivo's IP address I was prompted for a username and password. Is there a default username and password I need to put in there? No other usernames or passwords have been assigned.

[bicker]

RTFM.

The user name is tivo. The password is your Media Access Key.

[brettatk]

RTFM.

The user name is tivo. The password is your Media Access Key.


KMA.


I looked at the Common questions and it was not listed. Thanks.

[Uncle Briggs]

KMA.
LOL

[bicker]

KMA. I looked at the Common questions and it was not listed. Thanks.Uh, yes it was:

"Do I have to save my Media Access Key (MAK) information into TiVoPlayList?
No. You can leave the MAK entry area blank when you save your TiVo information. If doing so you should get a login window whenever accessing your machine. The username is 'tivo' (all lower case) and the password is your MAK."

[CrispyCritter]

Historically, most rants about premature deletions are caused by people excessively using KUID SPs and not understanding the consequences. TiVo reserves space for KUID shows not yet recorded (you've said you really, really want them!)

[brettatk]

Uh, yes it was:

"Do I have to save my Media Access Key (MAK) information into TiVoPlayList?
No. You can leave the MAK entry area blank when you save your TiVo information. If doing so you should get a login window whenever accessing your machine. The username is 'tivo' (all lower case) and the password is your MAK."


hehe, they must have just added that. ;)

Atleast I did check the Common Questions before asking even if I did overlook that part. Guess I'll just have to blame it on the italic writing. I do appreciate the answer though.

And to the OP, sorry that the thread seemed to get hijacked. That was not my intention. I upgraded my internal drive so I wouldnt have to worry about drive space. I have seen others say the same thing as you though. It can be frustrating not to get the space you think you should be getting and having shows deleted because of it.

[bicker]

Guess I'll just have to blame it on the italic writing. I do appreciate the answer though.I think everything should be in Comic Sans. :)

[scandia101]

Historically, most rants about premature deletions are caused by people excessively using KUID SPs and not understanding the consequences. TiVo reserves space for KUID shows not yet recorded (you've said you really, really want them!)

Who's ranting about premature deletions?

[CrispyCritter]

Who's ranting about premature deletions?You are??? You might categorize it differently, but your quote below falls into the same class of rants I've seen over the years.[rant]
I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive I installed in my DT S2 before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings.So do you have KUID SPs?

[GoHokies!]

[rant]
I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive I installed in my DT S2 before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings.
Yep. Sounds like you are to me too.

As has been said, Tivo manages hard drive space so that there is room for upcoming programs (especially KUID). Your confusion is part of the reason that you have to use TivoPlayList and not the much sought-after free space indicator that Tivo thinks would be "too confusing". :)

[scandia101]

Nope. Not a mention of early deletions from me.
I guess you need more facts so that you can stop imagining them.
Your shoe is undone. I'll wait while you re-velcro it.
Ready yet?

No KUID SP's in over 7 years of using Tivo.
During that same time I've only used KUID on about a half dozen recordings
KUID is not the problem.
I'm not saying that my recordings get deleted sooner than they should, I'm saying My Tivo has xxGB's of space for recordings and that is less than the stated recording capacity would require. I've been watching these numbers for a while, I didn't just look at a couple of numbers for the first time yesterday and decide to rant about them. It makes no difference if There are 25 items on the TDL or 0, the numbers stay the same.

[CrispyCritter]

Nope. Not a mention of early deletions from me.
I guess you need more facts so that you can stop imagining them.
Your shoe is undone. I'll wait while you re-velcro it.
Ready yet?I'm sorry I attempted to help you. It won't happen again.

[ebf]

[rant]
I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive...The TiVoPlayList instructions say for upgraded drives subtract 15% for overhead. So, you should be getting roughly 212 gigs of recordings. My 500gig drive in my DT allows around 405 gig of recordings-- about 19% for overhead... But the amount of space for overhead is just a guess by the TiVoPlayList creator. Don't forget a formatted drive has less usable space than the advertised amount. Here's a nice rant on that subject: Time for Hard Drive Manufacturers to Cut the GB BS (http://macenstein.com/default/archives/750)!

So, you lose some gigs from formatting and some more for the TiVo overhead.

How do I know what hard disk size to enter into TiVoPlayList for my machine?
As a general rule of thumb, I would enter the actual hard disk size - about 15-18% for system overhead. If you have a stock TiVo machine and don't know the actual hard disk size, enter 29gb for a 40-hour machine, 58Gb for an 80-hour machine or 101Gb for a 140-hour machine. If you are going to err, it is most important to underestimate your disk size, never overestimate or you may find yourself unexpectedly losing recordings.

[kb7sei]

It's not so much about formatting. To start with, that 250GB drive probably only has about 225GB of actual space the computer can use. That's because of the stuff the previous poster mentioned in that article. Drive manufactures use base-10 math to calculate size, computers use base-2 (binary) so the sizes are different to start with. Even once you take that into account, you now have to format the drive, the computer needs some data to tell it how to find the files you put on the drive. That's usually a smaller amount than the difference between "marketing size" and "real size".

Now, on a Tivo, you also have a bunch of partitions for the operating system, swap, and configuration files. That eats up another 30GB or so (It varies somewhat between models as some have more swap). There are two sets of these partitions, so they can upgrade the OS without effecting the working install. They install onto the extra set, then try to boot from it. If it fails, they can revert back to the old OS you had before.

So that gets you into the 190GB range. There you go. It's a combination of factors and it is perfectly reasonable once you understand it.

[corp666]

It's a combination of factors and it is perfectly reasonable once you understand it.

...of course, if you don't understand it, it's much simpler just to imply those that don't agree with you are morons who are unable to even tie their shoelaces. Much simpler that way, as opposed to acknowledging ignorance on one's own behalf.

[corp666]

Nope. Not a mention of early deletions from me.

*ahem*

[rant]
I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive I installed in my DT S2 before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings.

I guess you need more facts so that you can stop imagining them.

Owned.


Your shoe is undone. I'll wait while you re-velcro it.
Ready yet?

Pricelessly self-applicable!


I'm not saying that my recordings get deleted sooner than they should, I'm saying My Tivo has xxGB's of space for recordings and that is less than the stated recording capacity would require.

"...and it deletes shows before using that "missing" capacity that I don't understand"






Should we expect the apology now or shall we hold our breath?

[classicsat]

Try this:
Let the DVR fill with recordings.

Then sum up the capacity used by suggestions, KUIDs, and KUSNs. That would be the capacity used for recordings, and put into TPL. For my 200GB drive, that would be 173.4 GB.

[scandia101]

I'm sorry I attempted to help you. It won't happen again.

Again, stop imagining things.
I was ranting about the facts, not asking for any help.

[scandia101]

*ahem*

[rant]
I get the use of 195-196GB of the 250GB drive I installed in my DT S2 before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings.
*ahem*
Recordings are expected to be deleted when the Tivo reaches max capacity. My DT Tivo reaches max capacity at about 195GB, so I fully expect the deletion of old recordings at that point.

I'm not saying that my recordings get deleted sooner than they should, I'm saying My Tivo has xxGB's of space for recordings and that is less than the stated recording capacity would require."...and it deletes shows before using that "missing" capacity that I don't understand"


According to the sys info screen I have 277 hours. The reality is that I get 261. The capacity isn't missing, it's non existant, which is why I said "My Tivo lies" If my Tivo stated that it has 261 hours of record time this thread would not exist.
The only reason I even said "before recordings start getting deleted to make room for more recordings" was so that people would understand that that is how I know that the capacity had been reached.

Should we expect the apology now or shall we hold our breath?
I apologize for over estimating the members of TCF.

[scandia101]

TiVo overstates it's capacity.
i.e. they lie.

Why can't people understand that?
or better yet, why are so many people in denial about it?

[lew]

Doesn't your tivo say something like variable, up to 261 hours of recording time? I know that's what all my directv tivos say and I know that's what the S3 units say.

Tivo would be lying if you got an hour more then what is shown but is telling the truth if you get what is shown, or less. You'll only get the maximum time shown if you record shows that can be highly compressed, such as a test pattern. No different the the MPG "estimates" given on autos.

[scandia101]

Try this:
Let the DVR fill with recordings.

Then sum up the capacity used by suggestions, KUIDs, and KUSNs. That would be the capacity used for recordings, and put into TPL. For my 200GB drive, that would be 173.4 GB.

It's easier to just enter a low number or even 0 as total disk space. TPL will automatically change it to the total amount used by recordings.

[bicker]

Why can't people understand that?Probably because they disagree with you. Why can't you understand that?

[GoHokies!]

I'm sorry I attempted to help you. It won't happen again.

X2

So much for trying to help.

You're (the OP) is right - Tivo is a bunch of scummy liars and we dont' care we're all a bunch of idiots that don't know how to tie our shoes.

Feel better?

[magnus]

Ok </rant>


TiVo overstates it's capacity.
i.e. they lie.

Why can't people understand that?
or better yet, why are so many people in denial about it?

[scandia101]

X2

So much for trying to help.

You're (the OP) is right - Tivo is a bunch of scummy liars and we dont' care we're all a bunch of idiots that don't know how to tie our shoes.

Feel better?

You're good at making stuff up.
I said nothing about Tivo the company. I said there product provides incorrect information.

Please, in the future use real facts, not the ones you pull out of your butt.

[scandia101]

TiVo overstates it's capacity.
i.e. they lie.

Why can't people understand that?Probably because they disagree with you. Why can't you understand that?

They disagree that Tivo overstates it's capacity. Fine. I laid out the facts that show that it does. If they want to lay out some facts that show that Tivos accurately state their capacities, I'm listening.

The problem is that people insist that I'm complaining about early deletions and that couldn't be farther from the truth. They've created "facts" based on nothing and they're sticking with those false facts. Even when I put it down in one sentence "My TiVo overstates it's capacity" without any of the facts and explanations that confused them, they still don't get it.

[gonzotek]

TiVo overstates it's capacity.
i.e. they lie.

Why can't people understand that?
or better yet, why are so many people in denial about it?Some simple facts may help you to understand the fault in your premise that led to your rant: The TiVo device, as sold, bases its calculations on a drive of a known size. You have upgraded your device and therefore broken your agreement with TiVo (I'm not judging, I've done the same), and also have broken the ability of the TiVo to make an accurate capacity calculation.

So it's you, and not the TiVo, who is to blame for the overstated capacity. Return your TiVo to its original state, or purchase a new unmodified box and I'm willing to bet that it accurately or even understates its capacity.

[bicker]

(blah blah blah) ... they still don't get it.You just don't get it. :(

[ZeoTiVo]

You're good at making stuff up.
I said nothing about Tivo the company. I said there product provides incorrect information.

Please, in the future use real facts, not the ones you pull out of your butt.


Oh, so you are ranting because your DVR came alive and decided on its own to lie to you?

[magnus]

I'm just not sure why we should even care.... seems like Tivo provides... to some extent... the ability to upgrade our drives. I'm not really sure why you would want to rant about that. Would you rather they fix it where the system would only work with the original drive???

</rant>
</rant>
</rant>


They disagree that Tivo overstates it's capacity. Fine. I laid out the facts that show that it does. If they want to lay out some facts that show that Tivos accurately state their capacities, I'm listening.

The problem is that people insist that I'm complaining about early deletions and that couldn't be farther from the truth. They've created "facts" based on nothing and they're sticking with those false facts. Even when I put it down in one sentence "My TiVo overstates it's capacity" without any of the facts and explanations that confused them, they still don't get it.

[Adam1115]

I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

The TiVo is pessimistic. You would need to add up the TiVo playlist AND the to-do list. Say you have a 250 Gig HD. If your now playing list has 200 Gigs of shows, and your to-do list has 100 gigs of shows it's planning to record, your TiVo is going to realize that it needs an additional 50 gigs and will delete those 50 gigs in advance of the shows to be recorded.

It never considers other factors (like that you might manually delete things).

[ah30k]

... your TiVo is going to realize that it needs an additional 50 gigs and will delete those 50 gigs in advance of the shows to be recorded.How far in advance does it delete.

Seems to me that it should delete shows like a millisecond before it needs to.

What is gained by pre-deleting them? Other than pissing people off of course.

[Adam1115]

How far in advance does it delete.

Seems to me that it should delete shows like a millisecond before it needs to.

What is gained by pre-deleting them? Other than pissing people off of course.

Seems to be pretty far in advance.

I think it's just the design of the software.

[lrhorer]

Return your TiVo to its original state, or purchase a new unmodified box and I'm willing to bet that it accurately or even understates its capacity.
I have a better solution. I suggest the OP quit having a coronary over the fact his Tivo can only hold 266 hours instead of 277. If drive space is really that precious to him, he should do what I did: create an external file server and run Galleon on it (or Tivo Desktop, if he must).

Geez. I bought 5 Hitachi 1TB drives, but they only give me a total of 3.8T of space on the RAID 5 array. Were should I kvetch about that? (/sarcasm)

[lrhorer]

You just don't get it. :(
I freely admit I don't get it. I don't get how this is s truly horrendous problem. This one wouldn't even make my list of unimportant problems, let alone the list of critical ones. I wish this were one of my biggest problems, or even one of my pet peeves.

[Adam1115]

I'm sorry but your logic is flawed.

The TiVo is pessimistic. You would need to add up the TiVo playlist AND the to-do list. Say you have a 250 Gig HD. If your now playing list has 200 Gigs of shows, and your to-do list has 100 gigs of shows it's planning to record, your TiVo is going to realize that it needs an additional 50 gigs and will delete those 50 gigs in advance of the shows to be recorded.

It never considers other factors (like that you might manually delete things).

Also, another flaw in the argument, is that the amount of 'space' something takes is an estimate. There are a lot of factors in how well the compression works. Some shows will compress better some will be worse. The hours is an 'estimate'.

I'm also not sure the op is taking into account which shows are recording at what quality. Even if we assume all of the season passes use the same quality setting, manual recordings (where you are watching something and hit 'record') are going to be at "Best" which is going to use a bunch more space.

ETA: Also, if both tuners were active at the time you were estimating, you could have another hour of best quality reserved for the buffers...

[mattack]

TiVo reserves space for KUID shows not yet recorded (you've said you really, really want them!)

Do you mean that at some point before a KUID show will be recorded (lets make up a number and say 6 hours), that Tivo will delete shows to make room for it?

Or do you just mean that, in doing calculations when trying to set up a new recording, the Tivo will (of course) use existing and up-to-that-recording KUID shows to determine if it will have enough space? (Since it doesn't know you will have watched and deleted the show by then?)

I sometimes see my recently deleted and suggestions 'go away' when checking the now playing list, compared to a previous checking of the list.. and there have been no known recordings in the meantime. (The possible exception being started and failed suggestions.. which seems to happen an awful lot on my S3 & TivoHD compared to my S1.) If it truly is some future KUID recording causing this, that would help solve the mystery.

Though as a counterexample, I definitely have started a recording and see shows being deleted LIVE to make more space for the current recording. (Especially when starting a HD recording for example, and you see lower quality recordings go away every few minutes.)